One of Marvel Comics’ most iconic heroes is in for a major change.
The studio announced on “The View” on Tuesday that Thor, the hammer-wielding Norse God of Thunder, would now be a woman.
“It's a huge day in the Marvel Universe,” the show's moderator, Whoopi Goldberg, said. “Thor, the God of Thunder, he messed up, and he's no longer worthy to hold that damn hammer of his. For the first time in history, that hammer is being held by a woman. That's right. Thor is a woman!”
Few details are available at the moment, but Goldberg said that the new, female Thor modeled herself after the original one, as he saved her life. Now, she's the one holding Mjolnir, which makes her the legendary hero.
The post Marvel's Thor is Now a Woman, Comics Studio Announces appeared first on TheWrap.
Although relatively faithful to the sagas- after all Loki gave birth to several children, at least one of which was a horse, the results are not pretty.
I'm all for more equality in comics that do have a rather larger male cast, but why not make new characters instead of relying on the big names of old ones? This strikes me as nothing more than a token gesture.
Thor is a character based on a centuries-old myth that has, since its inception, been male. Of all the characters they cold have chosen, surely Thor is one of the silliest.
I first saw this on Facebook, and many of the comments echo what will inevitably be shared here:
There are far too many outstanding, strong female characters out there being under written, or under-represented to effectively "kill" another character simply because he's male. There really isn't much reason other than PC to turn Thor from male to female.
Plus, given the artwork shown thus far of this female Thor, I honestly think she would be a better Valkyrie type character, which could be a NEW female character that doesn't completely feth with a long-standing very popular character "just because"
According to what I saw on my FB feed, the announcement was made on The View, which is a show for middle-aged, menopausal women with nothing better to do but watch middle-aged menopausal women complain about inane crap.
Another thought. What happens when a kid sees Thor 3 in a few years time, goes to buy the comics, and sees Mrs Thoretta? Much confusion will arise, I imagine.
So a human girl now possesses the power of Thor, because he is no longer worthy. He hasn't had a sex change, he just screwed up (again), lost his power (again), and it was granted to a new person who IS worthy, and also happens to be a woman. Shock!! Horror!! Somebody think of the comic book code! Seriously, who cares? He'll be working to prove himself again and he'll get his powers back soon, and she'll be granted her own, new, personal weapon. Big deal.
Paradigm wrote: Another thought. What happens when a kid sees Thor 3 in a few years time, goes to buy the comics, and sees Mrs Thoretta? Much confusion will arise, I imagine.
I suppose he could do what most do in times of confusion--fire up the ol' internet box and do a "whatsit-pee-dia" search for an answer. It is not like convoluted story lines, recastings, retcons, and other shenanigans are unknown in the comics realm.
In the comics Thor's position and power are granted by the hammer and Odin, right? So isn't this kind of recasting plausible in the Marvel universe? I never read Thor or Avengers, so I am out of my comfort zone here.
Paradigm wrote: Another thought. What happens when a kid sees Thor 3 in a few years time, goes to buy the comics, and sees Mrs Thoretta? Much confusion will arise, I imagine.
I suppose he could do what most do in times of confusion--fire up the ol' internet box and do a "whatsit-pee-dia" search for an answer. It is not like convoluted story lines, recastings, retcons, and other shenanigans are unknown in the comics realm.
True, but this is a little more radical than most changes.
In the comics Thor's position and power are granted by the hammer and Odin, right? So isn't this kind of recasting is plausible in the Marvel universe? I never read Thor or Avengers, so I am out of my comfort zone here.
It's plausible, the question is why they felt the need to recast Thor rather than create a new character (answer: the name/character is very popular, so there's less risk).
Hell, they could give Lady Sif her own comic, or Valkyrie, if they really wanted a strong female Asgardian lead. Not to mention that the plot is recycled as well (Eric Masterson/Thunderstrike got his powers in almost exactly the same way, by the sound of it). It just strikes me as a token gesture and lazy writing as much as anything else.
and the hammer has been wielded by a few people over the years
Give you evens this "event" is over just prior to the next Avengers film ......
I appreciate there's a precedent, but I just don't see why (other than the fact the name is already popular) they didn't go for a new character. Why massively change one of your most major characters (Who was only killed off and redone a few years back if I recall) when you can keep that going and set up a new character?
Paradigm wrote: I just don't see why (other than the fact the name is already popular) they didn't go for a new character.
Read it again, they did. If you don't think the original Thor won't be back again sometime soon then you also must think death is permanent in comics as well.
Grey Templar wrote: Thor is a male character, full stop. No amount of gender equality PC nonsense can change that.
I'm really not sure how to break this to you, but "Marvel's Thor" is exactly who the Thor writers say Thor is. You don't get input, you don't get to disagree, it's not a matter of opinion. You can like, claim to disagree but all that does is make you wrong.
Paradigm wrote: I just don't see why (other than the fact the name is already popular) they didn't go for a new character.
Read it again, they did. If you don't think the original Thor won't be back again sometime soon then you also must think death is permanent in comics as well.
I also says she 'models herself on her predecessor'. Why not have a separate new character that isn't derivative of something else?
As for the real Thor returning, of course he will, but then we're left with yet another almost-Thor running around to go with Beta-ray Bill, the 2 iterations of Thunderstrike, Thor Girl and now the new one.
Grey Templar wrote: Thor is a male character, full stop. No amount of gender equality PC nonsense can change that.
I'm really not sure how to break this to you, but "Marvel's Thor" is exactly who the Thor writers say Thor is. You don't get input, you don't get to disagree, it's not a matter of opinion. You can like, claim to disagree but all that does is make you wrong.
\He does actually. As a consumer he is more powerful than all the Justice League combined. HE CAN GET THEM ALL FIRED.
Paradigm wrote: I just don't see why (other than the fact the name is already popular) they didn't go for a new character.
Read it again, they did. If you don't think the original Thor won't be back again sometime soon then you also must think death is permanent in comics as well.
I also says she 'models herself on her predecessor'. Why not have a separate new character that isn't derivative of something else?
Because then it would be a different comic and not a new way to look at older concerns/characters within the context of that comic. This won't just be about her, but most likely also about Thor redeeming himself. In five years time it will most likely just be another story arc most people don't know anything about other than people throwing fits for a bit, which will seem odd in retrospect.
Grey Templar wrote: Thor is a male character, full stop. No amount of gender equality PC nonsense can change that.
I'm really not sure how to break this to you, but "Marvel's Thor" is exactly who the Thor writers say Thor is. You don't get input, you don't get to disagree, it's not a matter of opinion. You can like, claim to disagree but all that does is make you wrong.
\He does actually. As a consumer he is more powerful than all the Justice League combined. HE CAN GET THEM ALL FIRED.
Indeed.
We the consumers may not get to say what they make Thor to be, but we sure as Hell get to make them to change it back and apologize.
I assume this is just a change in one particular series, no a fundamental makeover of the character. A bit like that time that Spiderman became Latino?
Thor is a male character, full stop. No amount of gender equality PC nonsense can change that.
There are plenty of great female characters from Norse mythology and comic book canon to pull from. No need to pollute existing icons.
Even if there has been a female Thor in the comics, the idea was stupid from the start.
Here's the thing. Thor (male guy) isn't suddenly becoming female. He's becoming unworthy and so switches to carrying his old axe Jarnbjorn (as seen on the cover of Avengers #35).
Thor (male guy) will still be doing superhero stuff with the avengers and such, he's just no longer the god of thunder.
Mjolnir still has the associated powers, and if they be worthy, whosoever shall lift this hammer shall wield the power of Thor (the god). The female character is worthy of lifting the hammer, and so wields the power of Thor (the god). She has the power of Thor (the god) so why shouldn't she call herself Thor (the god)? Thor (male guy) is still Thor (male guy), he's just not as powerful.
Think of it this way: in The Dark Knight Rises, if Bruce Wayne hadn't become Batman again, he would still have been Bruce Wayne. Even if Selina Kyle had taken on the mantle of Batman, he would still be Bruce Wayne, and she would be Batman, so why shouldn't she call herself Batman? Better analogy: At the end of Final Crisis, Batman (Bruce Wayne) was zapped with the Omega Sanction by Darkseid and sent to the past. while he was stuck in the past (and so unable to be Batman) Dick Grayson took over the mantle of Batman. Does this somehow "pollute" the character of Batman? or would it only be "polluting" the character if a woman had taken over the mantle?
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LuciusAR wrote: I assume this is just a change in one particular series, no a fundamental makeover of the character. A bit like that time that Spiderman became Latino?
You mean that time in 2011, which is still ongoing? (also he's half latino, half black)
We the consumers may not get to say what they make Thor to be, but we sure as Hell get to make them to change it back and apologize.
Are you a consumer though? Do you currently read Thor: God of Thunder or any of the Avengers titles he appears in? and will you stop purchasing them as a result of this news? Or are you just someone on the internet going "OH MY GOD THEY DID A THING THIS IS AN OUTRAGE" without actually having any stake in it?
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reds8n wrote: Frankly I think Falcon replacing Rogers as Cap. America is a bigger deal
This is the part that I thought would have been all over the internet originally, but that was before the Thor news hit he web.
Alpharius wrote: What is actually more amazing is the number of times 'mainstream' media falls for this crap and gives the comics companies free advertising.
Superman is dead! (Until he wasn't.)
Superman's new look and powers! (Until he got the old ones back.)
Captain America calls it quits! (For the 87th time.)
Captain America is dead! (Until he wasn't.)
Green Lantern is dead! (Until he wasn't.)
Green Lantern is gay! (No, not THAT Green Lantern...one in another dimension.)
Thor is dead! (Until he wasn't.)
Thor's a girl! (You see where this is going.)
It's almost as if they plan things that get a sensational headline...
And forget mainstream media...look at the reactions here and other nerd forums. Even the regulars get in a tizzy over something that will last a year and then be mostly forgotten.
curran12 wrote: Now now, gorgon, logic and pattern recognition does not have a place in the realm of comic book rage. Because THIS TIME IS FOR SUPER SERIOUS.
Exactly. This exact same thing happens every year or so, and the outrage is kind of predictable.
Though I am rather surprised at the complete lack of people complaining about the fact that Steve Rogers has lost his powers, and so Sam Wilson (Falcon; a black man) will be taking over as Captain America. I was expecting far more outrage about that.
Man on internet reverses major comic studio decision
Marvel Comics had recently announced on daytime television program"The View" that they had planned a change to their "Thor" comic book, which would start to feature a female lead. Fan response was mixed but one man on the popular action-figure collection website "dakkadakka.com" made the difference.
"When he came in and told us that 'Thor is a Male full stop.' we weren't skeptical at all." studio head Kevin Feige said in a statement on Tuesday afternoon.
The writers and marketers at marvel made it clear in their reports, that this man had total power over them and he "Sure as hell" got to dictate decisions to them. The said they are so impressed they are considering creating a new character based on the man called "The Consumer", an all-powerful being that derives his power from a magic fedora and high-tech alien trenchcoat.
"They tried asking me things like Who am are you?, Why are you here? and What are you screaming about?. Classic misdirection" the man explained in an interview. "I simply told them "Nunya Business". Research confirms this was the most clever answer he could have given.
Following the decision Marvel released statement saying "We have fired all of the writers, artists and producers involved with this decision".
When asked for comment the head writer simply shook his head sadly and said "No, just no. I don't why I tried to do this lame PC bullcrap with absolutely no merit. My idea was stupid from the start, I shouldn't have been trying to pollute existing Icons."
According to polls released by the man "Just about all my friends", agree with the decision. The man is reportedly in talks with house majority leader Kevin McCarthy to discuss possible new legislation to protect traditional comic values.
Seaward wrote: I think Wolverine becoming an undocumented migrant fat-acceptance-promoting otherkin transwoman is going to be the bigger story.
Is this true? Because if it is, it would be the first interesting thing they've done with Wolverine in... well, ever. I'd actually read that for the novelty, if nothing else.
curran12 wrote: Now now, gorgon, logic and pattern recognition does not have a place in the realm of comic book rage. Because THIS TIME IS FOR SUPER SERIOUS.
Exactly. This exact same thing happens every year or so, and the outrage is kind of predictable.
Though I am rather surprised at the complete lack of people complaining about the fact that Steve Rogers has lost his powers, and so Sam Wilson (Falcon; a black man) will be taking over as Captain America. I was expecting far more outrage about that.
As a long time Cap fan, I've grown to dislike the "Steve Rogers lost his powers" storylines. For one thing...what "powers"? And why does he of all heroes have to get taken down a notch?
The other major issue I have is the lack of versimilitude regarding the serum and his "powers". It doesn't seem like something he should "lose" or "get sucked from him," and it shouldn't cause all that muscle mass to dissolve into nothingness.
But it's obviously not something to get upset about, because the obvious point to all these changes is the inevitable "Heroes Restored!" storyline in 12 months or so, complete with new #1 issues for many titles and lots of collectible covers. It's always much, much more about the restoration than the deconstruction.
While I agree with your general assessment, gorgon, I do see a bit of value in the "powers lost" chapters that comics go through. Those story arcs act as a reboot to the world or story's relative power creep. If you don't have it, you eventually run into what you could call a Dragon Ball Z problem where the next threatening bad guy is so powerful that they require the same power increase from the hero, and generally invalidate any character not at that power level.
IMO, it is better to reset things rather than let them reach that point.
Goliath wrote: Hahahahahahaha! It's funny because Wolverine is dying in September.
Wait, he's dying instead? Well that's just crap. Everyone knows nobody dies for reals in comic books anymore. Especially not Mister "Let's put him in all our titles" Wolverine.
Bucky didn't stay dead. The Punisher didn't stay dead... twice. Cap didn't stay dead. Norman Osborne didn't stay dead. I could go on, but I think you guys get the idea.
I don't like the idea of turning Thor into a legacy character (DC is overflowing with those and Marvel has a few of its own) just to put some breasts on the cover of the book, especially when there already several perfectly good female Asgardians that the writers are ignoring (and have done so for years) who could pick up a hammer and hit dudes with it.
But hey, no matter how bad this turns out to be, Marvel will never come up with an idea dumber than "Let's turn the Punisher into Frankenstein with a Gatling gun for an arm."
But hey, no matter how bad this turns out to be, Marvel will never come up with an idea dumber than "Let's turn the Punisher into Frankenstein with a Gatling gun for an arm."
Goliath wrote: Hahahahahahaha! It's funny because Wolverine is dying in September.
Wait, he's dying instead? Well that's just crap. Everyone knows nobody dies for reals in comic books anymore. Especially not Mister "Let's put him in all our titles" Wolverine.
Bucky didn't stay dead. The Punisher didn't stay dead... twice. Cap didn't stay dead. Norman Osborne didn't stay dead. I could go on, but I think you guys get the idea.
I don't like the idea of turning Thor into a legacy character (DC is overflowing with those and Marvel has a few of its own) just to put some breasts on the cover of the book, especially when there already several perfectly good female Asgardians that the writers are ignoring (and have done so for years) who could pick up a hammer and hit dudes with it.
But hey, no matter how bad this turns out to be, Marvel will never come up with an idea dumber than "Let's turn the Punisher into Frankenstein with a Gatling gun for an arm."
What do you mean by 'Legacy Character'? Never mind, I realised what you meant. I don't think that they are turning him into a legacy character, really. He's losing his powers for a while, and someone else is filling in (as god of thunder) Thor will still be around, just with an axe rather than Mjolnir.
Goliath wrote: Hahahahahahaha! It's funny because Wolverine is dying in September.
Wait, he's dying instead? Well that's just crap. Everyone knows nobody dies for reals in comic books anymore. Especially not Mister "Let's put him in all our titles" Wolverine.
Bucky didn't stay dead. The Punisher didn't stay dead... twice. Cap didn't stay dead. Norman Osborne didn't stay dead. I could go on, but I think you guys get the idea.
I don't like the idea of turning Thor into a legacy character (DC is overflowing with those and Marvel has a few of its own) just to put some breasts on the cover of the book, especially when there already several perfectly good female Asgardians that the writers are ignoring (and have done so for years) who could pick up a hammer and hit dudes with it.
But hey, no matter how bad this turns out to be, Marvel will never come up with an idea dumber than "Let's turn the Punisher into Frankenstein with a Gatling gun for an arm."
What do you mean by 'Legacy Character'?
Names that people inherit like Blue Beetle, OMAC, etc. Marvel really has as many as DC, though.
In the comics Thor's position and power are granted by the hammer and Odin, right? So isn't this kind of recasting plausible in the Marvel universe? I never read Thor or Avengers, so I am out of my comfort zone here.
Not exactly... because Comic Book Thor was a human being, Dr. Blake (a legit human being, not some phony alias as in the movie) who found a staff/cane in a cave somewhere, he could slam the point of the staff/cane into the ground, whereupon, he would essentially be replaced with Thor, God of Thunder.... Thor's "position" at one point as Heir to the throne of Asgard, and eventual crowning/sitting on the throne are due to his birthright of being Thor Odinson, he has since been exiled, and pops in in dire need, wreaks havoc and goes back to exile. His "power" is granted by the Odinpower, or Allsource, not the hammer. The hammer only works/reacts to him when he is in it's good graces.
This change isn't saying "Steve Rogers died, so now Bucky has been put into the suit, because he's awesome" this is a "SHIELD met some random girl named Stephanie Rogers, and determined she was worthy of the mantle/title of Captain America, so she put on the suit in the absence of Bucky and/or Steve"
But hey, no matter how bad this turns out to be, Marvel will never come up with an idea dumber than "Let's turn the Punisher into Frankenstein with a Gatling gun for an arm."
Ahem...
Spoiler:
After all the trouble I went through to have that abortion of a comic book erased from my memory... Do you know how much therapy you've undone with that picture? DO YOU?
You will be recieving my psychotherapy bill in the next week or so. I expect prompt payment, sir.
Goliath wrote: Hahahahahahaha! It's funny because Wolverine is dying in September.
"Let's turn the Punisher into Frankenstein with a Gatling gun for an arm."
What do you mean by 'Legacy Character'?
Names that people inherit like Blue Beetle, OMAC, etc. Marvel really has as many as DC, though.
I'd heard that they were "killing" Wolverine off... but I'll believe it when they have an open casket funeral, on the pages (it's basically the ONLY way a comic character stays dead, for a while.
And isn't "Punisher with a gatling gun arm" basically just Cable with a skull on his chest?
Also, Marvel Studios needs to step on Fox's head and override them, if they try to bring a Deadpool movie out with all the shenanigans they crammed into him in the Wolverine Origins movie. (seriously, DP doesn't have cyclops vision, teleporting, and wolverine style samurai swords)
Gender-bent versions of characters are a thing... a thing people actually really like. And sometimes the gender opposite universe characters and stories become as good if not better than the original.
Not sure why everyone is so butt-hurt... They can do whatever they want... I always love to see how 'fandoms' feel like they have ownership of a franchise due to time invested and then act like something is being taken from them.
Any idea if it is a reboot, a self-contained mini-series or something else?
How many Marvel comic book heroes, once they died or changed in some way, stayed that way?
The only one I can immediatly call to mind who stayed dead is Captain Marvel from the late 60's.
I'm sure there might be some others, but it mostly reminds me of those scenes in the movies where someone looks like they died, everyone gets their emotional moment, then suddenly, the pesrson coughs or gives some otjer indication of life.
Not sure why everyone is so butt-hurt... They can do whatever they want... I always love to see how 'fandoms' feel like they have ownership of a franchise due to time invested and then act like something is being taken from them.
Any idea if it is a reboot, a self-contained mini-series or something else?
Thing is though, I think many fandoms do have "ownership" of a franchise, as they are the ones who are driving revenue to whatever company it is providing the product..
From the sounds of this new direction with Thor, it's probably in your "something else" category (as I view it anyways... similar to how the Ultimate timeline is different from the "real" one, etc) This would be the opening series in a new chapter of the Thor story... He's (yet again) been deemed unworthy by something (gods know what... Odin is dead, and it was usually Odin who is supposed to determine that), but apparently there MUST be a "god of thunder" and the new "god of thunder" is really the "goddess of thunder"
Judging by the reactions elsewhere online, the outcry from the fans will mean Marvel makes this a rather short chapter, and bring things back to "normal", perhaps with a spinoff series somewhere, or they'll ad this girl to the pantheon of Mjollnir wielding people throughout the various realms (joining guys like Beta-Ray Bill) and she'll crop up from time to time as the "real Thor" has need of more than one hammer
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Relapse wrote: How many Marvel comic book heroes, once they died or changed in some way, stayed that way?
The only one I can immediatly call to mind who stayed dead is Captain Marvel from the late 60's.
I'm sure there might be some others, but it mostly reminds me of those scenes in the movies where someone looks like they died, everyone gets their emotional moment, then suddenly, the pesrson coughs or gives some otjer indication of life.
This is the wikipedia article that I found with the best list I've seen thus far... Of course, how many of these characters are waiting in the wings for their own eventual resurrection?
Mr Nobody wrote: I personally like the symbolism of a woman being worthy of wielding the power of Thor.
I agree with this.... And upon reading, re-reading and re-reading again... .and again... It is VERY unclear as to whether this new Character will be named Thor, or will carry another name... as they say, she is worthy of the hammer, and the name of Thor.... So, it's entirely possible that she will be like Beta-Ray Bill, and possess the powers/hammer, but not actually CARRY the name Thor, but merely is viewed as being "worthy" of the name.
I enjoy the tears of all those who are pissed off at the change. Now what the freaking hell happened to cause Steve Rogers to AGAIN give up the mantle of Cap?!
I don't follow comics (Never did 'appreciate' them, the full books like Long Halloween would take me about an hour to read through, tops.)
However, presumably in the comics, Asgard is still some kind of actual place, in some form or another / plane of existence, what have you. So when the person who is holding the hammer goes there, who, well, are they? Are they 'Thor' then, or are they person-who-is-granted-the-powers-and-personnae-of-Thor?
And what happens to ex-Thor now? If he turns up at Asgard, who is he?
And, slightly off-topic. On the comic-book characters never stay dead angle. How's Uncle Ben doing? I imagine he's been resurrected for a short while a few dozen times but I imagine he's one of the few comic characters that's mostly stayed in the ground.
Its like changing the color of someones cape from red to blue.
Oh look another gender....
That won't change anything. Now if you killed thor and had a female replace him, that would be interesting. And you know. Stop making your main characters ressurectable.
Although Reds8n already beat me to it, I already burned through all of my "They're replacing Thor" outrage back in 1983, when he lost his job to an undocumented alien, AKA "the only cool Thor in the comics, ever"
Anyway this is like the hullabaloo over Idris Elba being Heimdall. Pointless.
The problem is that a lot of people seem to think that god in comic = actual Northern god. This just ain't the case. They share the same name and loosely a similar backstory, but they aren't the same. Heimdall, for example, is a totally different character. Starting with his apperance. The actual Northern god = "whitest of all Aesirs". Movie: black.
Uncle Ben and Gwen Stacy have both stayed 100% dead in the 616. They have both survived in various alternate universes that are usually meaningless. Gwen more commonly than Uncle Ben (I think he's survived maybe one time).
d-usa wrote: How many women have been Thor (held the hammer) before?
One. I think.
Canonically, two - and one was black, as well, so ready those fainting couches!
Spoiler:
One was Storm, yes, that one.
The other was Wonder Woman, in a canon crossover.
Spoiler:
That must have been awkward - what a hussy Mjolnir is.
Non-canonically, 3 - Rogue also was Thor in a What-If that I had.
This one's a little stickier though, since it was less that she was worthy, and more that she was actually Thor, because she absorbed his power for too long and hoovered him up like she did to Carol Danvers.
timetowaste85 wrote: I enjoy the tears of all those who are pissed off at the change. Now what the freaking hell happened to cause Steve Rogers to AGAIN give up the mantle of Cap?!
I'm pissed, but not to the point of tears...
Anyhow... Cap gave up the mantle AGAIN, due to a small, minor inconvenience of being dead. Again.
@Compel.... Uncle Ben used to be of the "perfect triumvirate" of comic book dead guys, but alas... he's still dead. He's made appearances since dying in 1963, however in all of those appearances, it is in flashback mode to the time when he was alive. He's still dead. One of the other "perfectly dead guys" was Bucky, but he was brought back for a spell.... Though, IMO what they did to him in the newest Cap movie was atrocious.
Mr Nobody wrote: I personally like the symbolism of a woman being worthy of wielding the power of Thor.
I agree with this.... And upon reading, re-reading and re-reading again... .and again... It is VERY unclear as to whether this new Character will be named Thor, or will carry another name... as they say, she is worthy of the hammer, and the name of Thor.... So, it's entirely possible that she will be like Beta-Ray Bill, and possess the powers/hammer, but not actually CARRY the name Thor, but merely is viewed as being "worthy" of the name.
As far as I can tell, the new person will have another name, but will take on the powers of Thor, and so go by that name, using it as a superhero identity rather than the guy's name. (basically separating the person Thor Odinson from the hero Thor: God of Thunder) similarly to how Iron Man is Tony Stark and Tony Stark is Iron Man, but if someone were to take over from Tony if he were unable, he would still be Iron Man. (see also: Dick Grayson as Batman was still Batman, Bucky as Captain America was still Captain America, Ben Reilly as Spiderman was still Spiderman)
The person is someone that's been previously established in the Marvel canon as well, so it's not an entirely new character (my money would have been on Angela, but new Thor's hair is blonde, not red, so I don't know)
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timetowaste85 wrote: Uncle Ben and Gwen Stacy have both stayed 100% dead in the 616. They have both survived in various alternate universes that are usually meaningless. Gwen more commonly than Uncle Ben (I think he's survived maybe one time).
Gwen is currently alive in the Ultimate Universe I believe (and hates Spiderman.
nkelsch wrote:Any idea if it is a reboot, a self-contained mini-series or something else?
Something else; it's a continuation of the main universe, but with Thor becoming unworthy and this woman being worthy, so it'll take over from the current Thor: God of Thunder series.
timetowaste85 wrote:I enjoy the tears of all those who are pissed off at the change. Now what the freaking hell happened to cause Steve Rogers to AGAIN give up the mantle of Cap?!
He got his powers removed by a guy called the Iron Nail, which included his longevity, so now he's an 80 year guy, but with Captain America's tactical experience. He needs a cane to walk, which rules out him being a hero, but can still help out with tactics and such (and looks to be staying with the avengers in an advisory role)
Compel wrote:I don't follow comics (Never did 'appreciate' them, the full books like Long Halloween would take me about an hour to read through, tops.)
However, presumably in the comics, Asgard is still some kind of actual place, in some form or another / plane of existence, what have you. So when the person who is holding the hammer goes there, who, well, are they? Are they 'Thor' then, or are they person-who-is-granted-the-powers-and-personnae-of-Thor?
And what happens to ex-Thor now? If he turns up at Asgard, who is he?
If new person turned up they would be Jane Smith, who happens to have Thor's powers and heroic alias. If Thor turned up he would be Thor Odinson (possibly prince of Asgard? I don't know how worthiness ties in to royal heritage)
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Ouze wrote: I think the confusing thing for non-comics-readers is the distinction that Thor is both a person, and an office that can have a different occupant.
This exact thing is what I have had to explain upwards of ten times today. I use the analogy of "imagine that Batman decided to change his superhero name to Bruce Wayne. If he were injured and someone took over from him, the new person's superhero name would still be Bruce Wayne, but the original would be the only one whose real name was Bruce Wayne.
There are plenty of good female characters within Marvel's lineup, and they've been doing good work with Captain Marvel. Why not elevate Sif or Valkyrie, and do a series around them if you want to make a big deal about a female Asgardian? Why take an existing male character and change it?
I mean, this'll all go back to the status quo eventually - comics love nothing more than the status quo - but this does seem like a boneheaded decision.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why take an existing male character and change it?
Because "hero dies/loses their powers/etc and someone else takes over" is a very common story in comics? I don't see how having a woman take the job for a while is any different than any of the other stories involving a man taking over for a hero.
Peregrine wrote: I don't see how having a woman take the job for a while is any different than any of the other stories involving a man taking over for a hero.
Never said it was. Please don't put words into my mouth. They would have been better served elevating an existing character or creating a new one.
nkelsch wrote:Any idea if it is a reboot, a self-contained mini-series or something else?
Something else; it's a continuation of the main universe, but with Thor becoming unworthy and this woman being worthy, so it'll take over from the current Thor: God of Thunder series.
timetowaste85 wrote:I enjoy the tears of all those who are pissed off at the change. Now what the freaking hell happened to cause Steve Rogers to AGAIN give up the mantle of Cap?!
He got his powers removed by a guy called the Iron Nail, which included his longevity, so now he's an 80 year guy, but with Captain America's tactical experience. He needs a cane to walk, which rules out him being a hero, but can still help out with tactics and such (and looks to be staying with the avengers in an advisory role)
Compel wrote:I don't follow comics (Never did 'appreciate' them, the full books like Long Halloween would take me about an hour to read through, tops.)
However, presumably in the comics, Asgard is still some kind of actual place, in some form or another / plane of existence, what have you. So when the person who is holding the hammer goes there, who, well, are they? Are they 'Thor' then, or are they person-who-is-granted-the-powers-and-personnae-of-Thor?
And what happens to ex-Thor now? If he turns up at Asgard, who is he?
If new person turned up they would be Jane Smith, who happens to have Thor's powers and heroic alias. If Thor turned up he would be Thor Odinson (possibly prince of Asgard? I don't know how worthiness ties in to royal heritage)
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Ouze wrote: I think the confusing thing for non-comics-readers is the distinction that Thor is both a person, and an office that can have a different occupant.
This exact thing is what I have had to explain upwards of ten times today. I use the analogy of "imagine that Batman decided to change his superhero name to Bruce Wayne. If he were injured and someone took over from him, the new person's superhero name would still be Bruce Wayne, but the original would be the only one whose real name was Bruce Wayne.
Wow, what happened to Cap is incredibly stupid then. His powers don't keep him looking young, he looks young because he was suspended in animation for X years, and didnt age during that time. Granted, his powers kept him alive to survive the SA, but his powers aren't responsible for his lack of aging. So Marvel fails continuity 101. Hell, have they ever made mention of the SSS extending life, outside of the ultimate universe (Fury received it before Cap in that one)?
And I don't blame Gwen for hating the new Ultimate Spider-Man. That guy annoyed me about 5 seconds after he showed up. Couldn't even get through his intro comic. I feel sorry for the soulless people who enjoy that comic. My friend who loves Spider-Man won't even touch that flaming turd.
Peregrine wrote: I don't see how having a woman take the job for a while is any different than any of the other stories involving a man taking over for a hero.
Never said it was. Please don't put words into my mouth. They would have been better served elevating an existing character or creating a new one.
Not a bad idea to push one of the others in front.
Marvel could take the less damaging route and put another Norse god-dess/Asgardian in place of Thor.
timetowaste85 wrote: Wow, what happened to Cap is incredibly stupid then. His powers don't keep him looking young, he looks young because he was suspended in animation for X years, and didnt age during that time. Granted, his powers kept him alive to survive the SA, but his powers aren't responsible for his lack of aging. So Marvel fails continuity 101. Hell, have they ever made mention of the SSS extending life, outside of the ultimate universe (Fury received it before Cap in that one)?
And I don't blame Gwen for hating the new Ultimate Spider-Man. That guy annoyed me about 5 seconds after he showed up. Couldn't even get through his intro comic. I feel sorry for the soulless people who enjoy that comic. My friend who loves Spider-Man won't even touch that flaming turd.
Evidently I was partially mistaken; he got aged at an accelerated rate by the Iron Nail, so he's biologically at an age where he should be dead, but the serum means he's still alive, only frail and old.
So yeah, he didn't have his powers removed, he still has them, but at the moment they're the only reason he hasn't died of extreme old age.
curran12 wrote: While I agree with your general assessment, gorgon, I do see a bit of value in the "powers lost" chapters that comics go through. Those story arcs act as a reboot to the world or story's relative power creep. If you don't have it, you eventually run into what you could call a Dragon Ball Z problem where the next threatening bad guy is so powerful that they require the same power increase from the hero, and generally invalidate any character not at that power level.
IMO, it is better to reset things rather than let them reach that point.
I'm generally okay with it, and as I said I realize they probably really cash in when the eventual restoration occurs.
It's just that in the case of Cap, losing-the-serum and especially quitting/passing-the-torch stories have become tiring and repetitive. I can however recognize that my old fart status is part of that. Many of readers won't be personally familiar with the Nomad/Super-Patriot/etc. storylines and so this will seem fresher(-ish) to them. I still have the right to yawn and not buy the comic, though.
That must have been awkward - what a hussy Mjolnir is.
Y'know, that got me thinking. We know how Marvel and DC like to play the "us too" game at times, especially with their events. DC is has been ramping up Wonder Woman lately -- the comic is winning awards, Grant Morrison has a high-profile WW comic project in the works, and the character will be in BvS and JL and will reportedly get her own feature.
Could even .1% of this be a "us too" from Marvel? Could another .1% of this be Marvel creating some options for the MCU down the road after Hemsworth's deal is up?
Sigvatr wrote: Yeah, Valkyrie is an amazing character that really deserves to get some action.
I don't know where she is in the comics at the moment, but given that she was a member of The Defenders, and that Marvel Disney are working on a Defenders TV/Netflix series, she could well see some more popularity soon. I wouldn't be surprised if she shows up in Thor 3 as well.
timetowaste85 wrote: So a human girl now possesses the power of Thor, because he is no longer worthy. He hasn't had a sex change, he just screwed up (again), lost his power (again), and it was granted to a new person who IS worthy, and also happens to be a woman. Shock!! Horror!! Somebody think of the comic book code! Seriously, who cares? He'll be working to prove himself again and he'll get his powers back soon, and she'll be granted her own, new, personal weapon. Big deal.
and the hammer has been wielded by a few people over the years
Give you evens this "event" is over just prior to the next Avengers film ......
I appreciate there's a precedent, but I just don't see why (other than the fact the name is already popular) they didn't go for a new character. Why massively change one of your most major characters (Who was only killed off and redone a few years back if I recall) when you can keep that going and set up a new character?
All of which are alternate continuity/what-if/non main timeline iterations of the character. This is in the primary continuity, *THE* Thor, not *A* Thor, although given how much of a clusterfeth Marvel's continuity/continuities have become, I don't really suppose that matters all that much anymore.
As for Falcon/Captain America, pretty sure thats happened before, and will likely eventually be reversed. I see that as a different situation though, Captain America is a mantle, its not a character, its a costume, Steve Rogers is the character, he didn't suddenly become black. Thor, on the other hand, is a character. It's his goddamned name. Now we have "Thor, the superhero formerly known as Thor", and "Thor, the chick that picked up Mjolnir pretending to be Thor".
They weren't always this way, but yes you're right.
Marvel Comics sucks.
The movies are good, though.
Very much this. DC isn't much better, but they have a few redeeming comic series.
LuciusAR wrote: I assume this is just a change in one particular series, no a fundamental makeover of the character. A bit like that time that Spiderman became Latino?
Alternate continuity. As I understand it, that continuity has been destroyed (as in, the in-comic universe was entirely wiped out by some event, destroying all the characters, etc. save for that iteration of Spider-Man who got merged into the 'mainstream' continuity somehow... so now theres like, two spider-mans or some nonsense).
Here's the thing. Thor (male guy) isn't suddenly becoming female. He's becoming unworthy and so switches to carrying his old axe Jarnbjorn (as seen on the cover of Avengers #35).
Thor (male guy) will still be doing superhero stuff with the avengers and such, he's just no longer the god of thunder.
Right, that I understand and have no issue with. BUT HE IS STILL THOR, GOD OF THUNDER. Mjolnir isn't his identity, its just (stupidly) the source of most of his power. Losing his hammer doesn't make him not Thor, it makes him less powerful.
Mjolnir still has the associated powers, and if they be worthy, whosoever shall lift this hammer shall wield the power of Thor (the god). The female character is worthy of lifting the hammer, and so wields the power of Thor (the god). She has the power of Thor (the god) so why shouldn't she call herself Thor (the god)? Thor (male guy) is still Thor (male guy), he's just not as powerful.
Because she *isn't* Thor. Having the hammer doesn't make her Thor. It makes you the bearer of Mjolnir and the powers of Thor. That would be like me coming into possession of Donald Trump's toupee and hot wife and calling myself Donald Trump.
At the end of Final Crisis, Batman (Bruce Wayne) was zapped with the Omega Sanction by Darkseid and sent to the past. while he was stuck in the past (and so unable to be Batman) Dick Grayson took over the mantle of Batman. Does this somehow "pollute" the character of Batman? or would it only be "polluting" the character if a woman had taken over the mantle?
And here's my next point. While others were covering for Batman, the general public was none the wiser. They couldn't tell that Batman was any different from who he had been prior. This is a different situation, in effect they were *pretending* to be Batman by masquerading as him. Good luck to the new 'Thor' doing the same with obvious boobplate. Same thing with Batman Beyond, for all intents and purposes, the general public is clueless that the Batman of the future is not the same Batman of the past.
This is the part that I thought would have been all over the internet originally, but that was before the Thor news hit he web.
Though I am rather surprised at the complete lack of people complaining about the fact that Steve Rogers has lost his powers, and so Sam Wilson (Falcon; a black man) will be taking over as Captain America. I was expecting far more outrage about that.
Like I said, been there, done that, not the first time. Seems stupid to me, but its more acceptable as its been done already in the past within the primary continuity of the comics, and its already been established within the continuity that Captain America is more of a title/role than it is an individual person, as others have publicly/semi-publicly taken on his mantle in the past to continue his work.
As a long time Cap fan, I've grown to dislike the "Steve Rogers lost his powers" storylines. For one thing...what "powers"? And why does he of all heroes have to get taken down a notch?
The other major issue I have is the lack of versimilitude regarding the serum and his "powers". It doesn't seem like something he should "lose" or "get sucked from him," and it shouldn't cause all that muscle mass to dissolve into nothingness.
Yeah, this is like what, the 3rd or 4th its happened? Still not a rational explanation for it.
While I agree with your general assessment, gorgon, I do see a bit of value in the "powers lost" chapters that comics go through. Those story arcs act as a reboot to the world or story's relative power creep. If you don't have it, you eventually run into what you could call a Dragon Ball Z problem where the next threatening bad guy is so powerful that they require the same power increase from the hero, and generally invalidate any character not at that power level.
IMO, it is better to reset things rather than let them reach that point.
Like I said to a friend the other day, the problem is that comic book writers don't know how to write an ending.
I don't like the idea of turning Thor into a legacy character (DC is overflowing with those and Marvel has a few of its own) just to put some breasts on the cover of the book, especially when there already several perfectly good female Asgardians that the writers are ignoring (and have done so for years) who could pick up a hammer and hit dudes with it.
This. Its paying lip-service to 'diversity', and IMO pretty much acknowledging that they are unable to produce a minority background superhero that is capable of standing on his/her/it's own merits, instead having to piggy-back off the name and success of a long-established and more successful Caucasian male character to promote sales.
Judging by the reactions elsewhere online, the outcry from the fans will mean Marvel makes this a rather short chapter, and bring things back to "normal", perhaps with a spinoff series somewhere, or they'll ad this girl to the pantheon of Mjollnir wielding people throughout the various realms (joining guys like Beta-Ray Bill) and she'll crop up from time to time as the "real Thor" has need of more than one hammer
Basically another case of the Superior Spider-Man.
It is VERY unclear as to whether this new Character will be named Thor, or will carry another name...
Your reading comprehension skill check must have failed you:
This October, Marvel Comics evolves once again in one of the most shocking and exciting changes ever to shake one of the “big three” of Captain America, Iron Man and Thor. No longer is the classic Thunder God able to hold the mighty hammer, Mjölnir, and a brand new female hero will emerge worthy of the name THOR.
“This is not She-Thor. This is not Lady Thor. This is not Thorita. This is THOR. This is the THOR of the Marvel Universe. But it’s unlike any Thor we’ve ever seen before.”
And what happens to ex-Thor now? If he turns up at Asgard, who is he?
He had to petition Asgard for a Change of Name from Thor to "The superhero/Norse god formerly known as Thor"
Ultimately, why the hell not just make the already extremely-similar Valkyrie the new owner of Mjolnir, kill off Thor (for good, or maybe just permanently retired or whatever), and... you know... push Valkyrie as a worthwhile 'strong female character' with a proud 'feminist tradition' dating back thousands of years, and write a convincing comic series based on her...?
As far as I can tell, the new person will have another name, but will take on the powers of Thor, and so go by that name, using it as a superhero identity rather than the guy's name. (basically separating the person Thor Odinson from the hero Thor: God of Thunder) similarly to how Iron Man is Tony Stark and Tony Stark is Iron Man, but if someone were to take over from Tony if he were unable, he would still be Iron Man. (see also: Dick Grayson as Batman was still Batman, Bucky as Captain America was still Captain America, Ben Reilly as Spiderman was still Spiderman)
Nope, see above. As an aside, that needs to be pointed out, in every example you listed, the alternate Iron Man/Batman/Captain America/Spider-Man, etc. all PRETENDED to be *THE* Iron Man/Batman/Captain America/Spider-Man, etc. They all imitated the "actual" character and went through an effort to maintain the appearance that nothing had changed. This is *clearly* not the case with Thor. In the case of Captain America, however, they publicly announced IIRC a replacement for him, at least once, that was just as capable as the original, as Captain America has, in-effect, become an official position/title, rather than an individual persona.
Gwen is currently alive in the Ultimate Universe I believe (and hates Spiderman.
Isn't the Ultimate universe dead?
I think the confusing thing for non-comics-readers is the distinction that Thor is both a person, and an office that can have a different occupant.
Except it isn't. Mjolnir didn't make Thor Thor. Thor's powers, persona, and identiy as the Norse God of Thunder are inherent to Thor being Thor, an Asgardian. It wasn't until recently that Odin bound Thor's power to Mjolnir, instead of it being inherent to Thor. That doesn't make Thor not Thor if he no longer wields Mjolnir, it makes him considerably less powerful and not the wielder of Mjolnir, but he still remains as Thor, the Norse God of Thunder by virtue of being Thor Odinson of Asgard. Conversely, possessing Mjolnir does not make one Thor, Norse God of Thunder, nor does it make one Thor, the Superhero, it makes one the wielder of Mjolnir.
I use the analogy of "imagine that Batman decided to change his superhero name to Bruce Wayne. If he were injured and someone took over from him, the new person's superhero name would still be Bruce Wayne, but the original would be the only one whose real name was Bruce Wayne.
It's a bad and invalid analogy. Thor is Thor by virtue of being Thor, not by virtue of wielding Mjolnir. Batman is not Bruce Wayne, Bruce Wayne is Batman, that doesn't disqualify someone other than Bruce Wayne playing the role of Batman. Changing Batman's name to Bruce Wayne doesn't change that, it just makes for a confusing relative statement (i.e. Bruce Wayne is not Bruce Wayne, Bruce Wayne is Bruce Wayne, that doesn't disqualify someone other than Bruce Wayne playing the role of Bruce Wayne.)
There are plenty of good female characters within Marvel's lineup, and they've been doing good work with Captain Marvel.
Do you mean Ms. Marvel or Captain Marvel? I can't speak for Captain Marvel, but the primary redeeming quality of Ms. Marvel is that she's a minority from Jersey City. That's another character who was and is worthy of their own distinct identity that was forced to use the name of a legacy character to push sales, although I think its more forgivable, as the previous Ms. Marvel (Carol Danvers) essentially publicly changed her name to Captain Marvel and in the process abandoned her rights to it (and Captain Marvel has been dead for what? decades? besides the numerous imposters that have popped up over the years?) and the in-universe explanation for it at all is at least reasonable (and the resulting confusion in their personas or whatever is a bit of a gag as well). Beyond that, former Ms. Marvel cum Captain Marvel is still a thing with her powers, ability, and identity intact, she wasn't 'replaced' by any means (unlike Thor, who may still be referred to as "Thor" since that is his actual name, but essentially somehow *isn't* Thor because some chick with a hammer is), the new Ms. Marvel is in-addition-to, not instead-of. Beyond that, the whole Captain Marvel thing was also the result of a real-world legal issue between Marvel and DC, Marvel only recently gained the ability to use the name again.
Why not elevate Sif or Valkyrie, and do a series around them if you want to make a big deal about a female Asgardian? Why take an existing male character and change it?
This.
Y'know, that got me thinking. We know how Marvel and DC like to play the "us too" game at times, especially with their events. DC is has been ramping up Wonder Woman lately -- the comic is winning awards, Grant Morrison has a high-profile WW comic project in the works, and the character will be in BvS and JL and will reportedly get her own feature.
Could even .1% of this be a "us too" from Marvel? Could another .1% of this be Marvel creating some options for the MCU down the road after Hemsworth's deal is up?
I'm sure it is, but Marvel is kicking DC's ass in the diversity department by a wide margin, so its almost unnecessary. Besides that, Wonder Woman has always been a woman, and as a result has been grossly neglected, DC is finally trying to correct that. Thor is something else entirely. The politically correct 'undertones' are about as subtle as Mjolnir, but the reality is that the attempt at political correctness is misguided because they are trying to establish a Marvel counterpart to Wonder Woman essentially overnight by using an established male character as a basis for sales, even though there are more than a few existing female characters, some of whom are already extremely similar, who are more deserving of the limelight.
CBR News: Jason, the big news is that a new volume of "Thor" launches in October and its protagonist is female. I understand you have to be wary of spoilers here, but what can you tell us about the new title character? Has Thor been transformed? Or has another character received Thor's powers?
Jason Aaron: The latter. This is not the Thor we knew transformed into a woman. This is a new character; someone else picking up the hammer. I knew when I took over Thor that at some point I wanted to do a Beta Ray Bill-style story about somebody else wielding the hammer for awhile. It took me awhile to figure out what kind of story that should be and who the character should be.
When you look back over the history of Thor comics, a lot of different people have picked up the hammer at one point or another and hardly any of them female. The only women to wield the hammer are in brief moments here and there, or "What If?" stories, or future stories and stuff like that. So we've never seen a big story about a woman picking up the hammer and if you look at the inscription on the hammer it even says, "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor." I'm going to flip that on its ear and for the first time see what it's like to have a brand new version of Thor who is female; the Goddess of Thunder.
And the new volume will just be called "Thor," correct?
Right. I like that. If it's "Thor: Something" it's a different kind of book. You pick up this book and it just says "Thor" on the cover, which features a new female version of Thor. It's pretty much telling you she's not She-Thor or Lady Thor. She's not Thorika. She is Thor. This is the new Thor. So I like that part of it.
Is this new Thor a character we've met already? Or is she a character we'll meet very soon?
When I say new character I mean a new version of Thor. Who the person is behind the mask will be a big question mark. The Thor we know will not know the answer to that question. Odin won't know the answer to that. No one will know who this new Thor is.
Is the question of why Thor is no longer wielding Mjolnir something we'll see answered in books like "Thor & Loki: The Tenth Realm?" Or September's "Thor: God of Thunder" #25?
By the time we get to "Thor" #1 you'll have seen the answer to that. You'll see why Thor has become unworthy. We'll talk about that again in "Thor" #1. It's a very new reader-friendly issue, but it's also a continuation of everything I've been doing on "Thor: God of Thunder." So this is not me scrapping all the previous plans I had and starting over. This was kind of the idea from the get go. So everything was always moving towards Thor becoming unworthy and someone else having to pick up that hammer.
Everything I've been setting up in "Thor: God of Thunder" with Malekith and the different dark unions of the Nine-now-Ten Realms, and the revelations of the "Tenth Realm" miniseries will continue to feed into the new book. It's a dark time for all these realms.
We've got upheaval in Asgardia. At the end of "Thor: God of Thunder" #24 we see that Asgardia has to leave the Earth. So for the first time in quite awhile we won't have Asgardia hovering just above the Earth. It's out in space again. Some political turmoil has also begun in Asgardia. In the midst of all of this you tack on the fact that Thor can't pick up his hammer. It's an intense situation and clearly a situation that demands that there still be a Thor. So a new Thor has to arise out out of that.
I'm not going to reveal who's behind the mask of this new Thor, but if you look back over "Thor: God of Thunder" you'll find quite a few suspects. We've had quite a few female characters who have played quite big roles in the series so far. We also have a few more who will be playing roles in the new series. So if you're looking for suspects we have quite a few of them.
With that in mind, it sounds like this new "Thor" volume will have all of the action fans of your run love, but it will also feature a mystery and quite a bit of political intrigue. Is that accurate?
Absolutely, yes. There's certainly a lot of intrigue and dark maneuvering between all of these different realms that is very clearly building towards some kind of massive conflict. We're starting to see different realms align. We saw Malekith, the king of the Dark Elves, broker a deal with the Frost Giants, and we'll start to see the fruits of that collaboration. We'll start to see some other characters join that cabal as well; characters both new and old.
So in the coming months we'll see the return of some familiar villains from Thor's past. That means this new Thor will certainly have her hands full and will have no shortage of people lining up to take her on including at some point, as you might expect, the previous version of Thor.
I imagine he's not going to be too happy about someone else running about with his hammer, especially when he doesn't even know who it is.
Does that mena the old Thor isn't going anywhere? Will he still very much be a part of this new book?
Yes, Thor Odinson, the Prince of Asgard, will still be around. He's still Thor. That's his birth name. He's unworthy of Mjolnir, but he'll still have a role to play. If you've seen the cover of one of Jonathan Hickman's upcoming "Avengers" issues where it flashes forward into the future you see what appears to be Thor holding his axe, Jarnbjorn. So that's kind of a glimpse into our book's future as well. That's kind of where we've been heading.
Again it all goes back to what I've set up in "God of Thunder" where we had these three different versions of Thor -- the young rambunctious Thor who wasn't yet worthy of picking up his hammer, present day Thor the Avenger, and then grumpy old King Thor. We'll continue to see those other versions, but we'll also start to see present day Thor becoming more of an amalgam of those other two versions.
All of which are alternate continuity/what-if/non main timeline iterations of the character.
No they're not. The Fog version/splinter is mainstream MU as are beta Ray Bill, Thunderstrike etc etc
No, Thor is still Thor by virtue of being Thor, Mjolnir being his power source doesn't change that. Thor Odinson is THE Norse God of Thunder, and Thor Odinson happens to wield Mjolnir, which in turn is the source of his powers. If another were to wield Mjolnir, that wouldn't suddenly make them Thor Odinson, the Norse God(dess) of Thunder, it would just give them the powers of Thor Odinson, Norse God of Thunder, but not the identity, title, or persona.
Frog Thor was still Thor, he was transformed into a frog by Loki. Beta Ray Bill was still Beta Ray Bill. In the case of pre-Thunderstrike Thunderstrike, its important to remember that *THE* Thor was fused with Eric Masterson, and essentially trapped inside of Eric Mastersons mind as a distinct entity. Red Norvell became "Thor" through an in-universe plot by Odin which involved him defeating the actual Thor in an attempt to replace him so that he would then die in the Ragnarok instead of the actual Thor. Those are the only mainstream continuity versions of Thor, and all of them avoid the stupidity of the present fem-Thor situation.
P.S. - That interview screams of "THIS IS A TEMPORARY SITUATION AND FEMTHOR WILL EVENTUALLY NOT BE THOR ANYMORE".
Well of course. Status Quo is the lifeblood of comics. I mean, does anyone think Wolverine is really going to stay dead? Wolverine is the most well known character Marvel has with the general populace and probably the second or third most popular character of all their characters (Spider-man being number 1). To, by choice, remove him from future stories? No...
If new person turned up they would be Jane Smith, who happens to have Thor's powers and heroic alias. If Thor turned up he would be Thor Odinson (possibly prince of Asgard? I don't know how worthiness ties in to royal heritage)
Nope, he's just Thor Odinson. He's already been the king of Asgard, and exiled from there. In Thor's true story line, I believe that Baldur is the current king of the Asgardians..
And Gwen Stacy is currently dead in the "real" Marvel timeline (apparently, the Ultimates timeline is separate from "real life" somehow) As each character has a central timeline to their story, it's usually encompassed within a single title name, such as Invincible Iron Man, or Incredible Hulk (with the exceptions of Planet Hulk and World War Hulk, those are in the "real" timeline as well), which is how a ton of people, even some comic fans get confused, since there can be quite an array of books available on any one character. I'm not sure how DC does it (as I dont like them), but with Marvel, each character generally has a central book line, and anything else may or may not be canon (basically, if something happens in another book that isn't part of the usual timeline gets mentioned in their central book, then it's canon)
Sigvatr wrote: So, what if Thor should surprisingly (haha!) become worthy again? Will She-Thor just step down and be like "Yo, here you go again bud!"?
Hopefully.
This is some lame-ass-gak. I'm not a huge comic nut, but I prefer a little bit of continuity and not fething around with characters genders. You want to empower women, Marvel? Great idea, go make a new comic strip with a female main, or take an already-established minor female character and give her her own series and empower her. Don't mess around with my man Thor!
Sigvatr wrote: So, what if Thor should surprisingly (haha!) become worthy again? Will She-Thor just step down and be like "Yo, here you go again bud!"?
Well, it has happened before where, in times of dire need, Thor has called on the services of alternate dimensional versions of himself. IIRC there was a Ragnarok story arc where, in order to defeat the big baddie at the end, Thor had to team up with Beta-Ray Bill and all the other "Thor's" to kick ass and take names.... So, I'd guess she-Thor would either end up in the same situation, or, as it's been pointed out, she could be given her own weapon and a new persona... Perhaps even replacing Valkyrie, or "joining" Valkyrie to become more of an X-Men type of super-women-hero group (it's been somewhat established that there was not a singular Valkyrie in the Norse tradition, but rather one Valkyrie per "female emotion"... and the Vikings had over 50 different words/names for a woman's anger )
That depends on the character of the new FemThor. In the case of previous 'Thors', when the real Thor reasserts himself, frequently the 'imposters' were awarded mystical weapons of some sort or another so they could continue heroing in some capacity. Eric Masterson/Thunderstrike received a mace (called Thunderstrike) for example (which gives him all the abilities of Thor, though not to the same level). Beta Ray Bill received Stormbreaker, which is effectively Mjolnir's twin, and which gives Beta Ray Bill *literally* all of Thors exact powers and exact strengths, etc.
The best thing that can come of this is that FemThor does her Thor thang for a while, then the real Thor becomes *THE* Thor again, and FemThor takes on the mantle of Valkyrie or whatever and is awarded whatever Asgardian weapon it is that makes her a BAMF character, probably a spear and magic helmet.
Sigvatr wrote: So, what if Thor should surprisingly (haha!) become worthy again? Will She-Thor just step down and be like "Yo, here you go again bud!"?
Well, it has happened before where, in times of dire need, Thor has called on the services of alternate dimensional versions of himself. IIRC there was a Ragnarok story arc where, in order to defeat the big baddie at the end, Thor had to team up with Beta-Ray Bill and all the other "Thor's" to kick ass and take names.... So, I'd guess she-Thor would either end up in the same situation, or, as it's been pointed out, she could be given her own weapon and a new persona... Perhaps even replacing Valkyrie, or "joining" Valkyrie to become more of an X-Men type of super-women-hero group (it's been somewhat established that there was not a singular Valkyrie in the Norse tradition, but rather one Valkyrie per "female emotion"... and the Vikings had over 50 different words/names for a woman's anger )
The character of Valkyrie within Marvel continuity is a separate and distinct singular character.
I also think that when it comes to empowerment, this is a fail. It's a total, absolute fail.
Firstly, Female Thor almost promotes the long-held view by misogynists that to empower women, you have to take away from men. For the sake of correctness and change, we're messing with a longheld and muchloved character... this isn't going to work out well. I never like when they mess with any of my favorite characters: they always turn out lame, illogical, or they get boring and are reverted quickly. This isn't just some crusade against FemThor; I also hated it when they did the Angelic Punisher, Postapocalyptic Superman with a Santa beard, Doctor Hulk, and all the other incredibly lame changes that were changes "just for the sake of change".
Female Thor will never be a truly empowering and interesting character, because she will always be in the shadow of her male counterpart. We all know Thor, what Thor does, and to an extent all Thor comics rely on a strong hint of nostalgia and remembrance. By modifying an existing male chracter instead of being original or using an existing female character, they're ensuring that female Thor will be in the shadow of the Real Thor, the 'male Thor' for perpetuity. Bad idea.
Simply put, don't piss off the internets. I'd say feminism/the like is the most hotly contested topics these days. Anyone that does a move that is blatantly discriminatory or overly politically-correct will be born into the thunderous fury of craziness that leads to an insane combination of hatred, approval, boycotts, and endorsement by different groups that are tearing at each others throats. It's really best to tailor what you do to avoid this mess. The smart ones manage to skirt the controversy while contributing and changing common perceptions; the dumb ones get drawn into the hurricane of madness. It's obvious Marvel is dumb.
More female heroes? Sure, let's. Just not like this. Marvel could have done many things to add more females to make it less of a sausagefest. How about creating an original series with a new female hero? Or take an obscure character, flesh them out, and put them into the limelight? Wait, I have an even better idea: let's take one of the characters that are typically portrayed in an overly-sexualized way and totally change everyones expectations on them by portraying them differently, in a more mature way?
Nah, why don't we crap on an already-established hero and change his role, screwing with the status quo for no reason.
Yeah I'd have actually bought a comic book that wasn't about the Ultimate Warrior or Mr.T if it had a female character that wasn't a sex object and that I'd not be embarrassed to read around my friends (men or women).
But it's not actually about diversity...it's about selling stuff, more than ever before. Neither creating Stupendowoman nor revamping Squirrel Girl will sell stuff the way that a switcheroo with an established iconic character can. It's brand recognition, like with any other product.
I have to admit that I expected this to be met much more by yawns than with nerdrage. Taken at face value, what's the more interesting story -- Thor as is to infinity, or Thor going through a fall before finding redemption?
The issues I have are 1) that it's all been done before -- even with the same characters we're talking about, and 2) that stunts and crossover events that ultimately get undone anyway have become the norm and crutches at the big two rather than consistent, solid storytelling across all books. Yay, quarterly earnings targets.
Although I'm still buying some DC books. I haven't been buying any Marvel books regularly for the first time in forever.
Although I'm still buying some DC books. I haven't been buying any Marvel books regularly for the first time in forever.
I've never bought DC stuff (except as gifts for others), but I HAVE recently bought Marvel comic books... Though to be fair, most of them have been Deadpool books, and no matter the change that Marvel makes to DP, I think as long as the writers get him/her "right" they don't care... We Deadpool fans are fairly easy to keep happy: violate the rules of comic books (the 4th wall, etc), be funny, and kill lots and lots of badguys
I have to admit that I expected this to be met much more by yawns than with nerdrage. Taken at face value, what's the more interesting story -- Thor as is to infinity, or Thor going through a fall before finding redemption?
I ordinarily would yawn, but its been a while since I raged last, and didn't have much in the way of worthy causes to rage over.
Although I'm still buying some DC books. I haven't been buying any Marvel books regularly for the first time in forever.
Try supporting the 'independent' publishers, Dark Horse, Valiant, etc. have all been pushing their own superhero books, I've been enjoying them rather thoroughly, thus far devoid of the stupidity of Marvel/DC publications and their parallel/off-shoot universes and lack of perma-death, but then again the series are all in their infancy.
d-usa wrote: Thor is whoever picks up the hammer (or whoever the hammer deems worthy) and then has all the power of Thor.
Spiderman is whoever has the costume and shoots spider webs.
Batman is whoever has the cape and is crazy enough to fight super villains because he doesn't realize he has throat cancer instead of super powers.
It's super hero comics. The character is whoever wears the clothes and has the powers, nothing less and nothing more.
Thor is *literally* the Norse God of Thunder of Norse myth. Whether or not he is in fact a divine being or just an ultra-powerful alien I think is left ambiguous, but regardless of that, Thor is more than a hammer and costume.
chaos0xomega wrote: Thor is *literally* the Norse God of Thunder of Norse myth.
Which of course has feth all to do with the comic book version; the real world mythological figure and the comic alien based on that myth are vastly different creatures.
Thor is *literally* the Norse God of Thunder of Norse myth. Whether or not he is in fact a divine being or just an ultra-powerful alien I think is left ambiguous, but regardless of that, Thor is more than a hammer and costume.
Thor the person is the guy we all know.
Thor the Superhero is whoever has the superpowers, wears the costume, and wields the hammer from which the power flows.
Most of the time, the same person is both versions of Thor.
But sometimes Thor is just a guy send to earth with no special powers at all, and sometimes Thor is somebody that has nothing to do with Norse myth who has all the powers of Thor and is for all practical purposes "Thor the Superhero".
Grey Templar wrote: In order to be Thor, you have to be the person of Thor. Not just "be worthy".
Your first sentence is how it works, and is the opposite of this; unless you're merely opining how you'd like it to be, rather than how it is.
I think the previous example of Iron Man was maybe the best one. There have been other Iron Mans* (Iron Men?), just as there have been other, canonical, Thors separate from Thor, son of Odin.
*For non-comic readers, Tony Stark had a real substance abuse problem** in the comics, and temporarily had Rhodey fill in for him.
Grey Templar wrote: Putting on the Batsuit and fighting the Joker doesn't make you Batman. It makes you someone in a Batsuit fighting the Joker.
No. It makes you Batman.
Part of the problem with Thor is that it is an unconventional naming scheme for how they actually handle the character: both versions share the same name.
Bruce Wayne is the rich guy with an interesting hobby. Batman is the crime fighting bat with throat cancer. Most of the time it's the same character. But sometimes Batman is somebody else.
Damian Wayne is some kid hanging out with Bruce Wayne. Robin is Batman's partner. Most of the time they are both the same character. But sometimes Robin is somebody else.
Tony Stark is another rich guy with an interesting hobby. Iron Man is the guy with the suit. Most of the time it's the same character. But sometimes Iron Man is somebody else.
Alan Scott is a guy with a ring. The Green Lantern is a super hero. Sometimes they are both the same character. But often the Green Lantern is somebody else.
Thor(Person) is the Prince of Asgard (I think per the comics his only natural abilities are strength, speed, durability, and long age). Thor(Superhero) is the guy with the powers granted to him by Mjolnir (flight, manipulate the weather, lightning, dimensional transportation). The tough guy is Thor(P), the superhero powers of Thor(S) come from the hammer, he does not naturally have them. Most of the time Thor(P) and Thor(S) is the same person. But at times, they are not.
Ouze wrote: I think it's a fair argument that Bruce Wayne is actually the alter-ego of Batman.
That's just nitpicking .
But Dick Grayson has been Batman. The (not sure how canon shows are) kid in the future has been Batman. Not sure if there are any others, but "Not-Bruce" has been Batman in the past.
Ouze wrote: Azrael was Batman for a while, right? I didn't follow that storyline.
Jean-Paul Valley was Batman for awhile in "Knightfall". It did not go so well...
Dick Grayson became Batman after the conclusion of "Battle for the Cowl", Jason Todd tried to usurp the mantle during said "Battle for the Cowl" and for a few nights Tim Drake was Batman...
But Dick Grayson has been Batman. The (not sure how canon shows are) kid in the future has been Batman. Not sure if there are any others, but "Not-Bruce" has been Batman in the past.
It seems presumptuous to assume the worst bethor we see what the writers have done with Thor. What if we end up with a Deadpool Corps situation?
Can you imagine a world where a team of Thors arrive on a flying Viking Longship, leaping out with a lady, a boy, a sentient Mjolnir( affectionately nicknamed 'Hammerhead'), and a mascot- perhaps an enormously fat cat that can weigh as much as the world?
Kinda interesting perspective from a Asatru facebook page I follow.
I think we've all heard about the new change to Marvel Comic's Thor character by now. I'm doing up a larger debate post covering the concept of cultural appropriation in wider detail and what it means to us as a religion but I wanted to put my two gold pieces in about what I think about the Thor thing right now.
Many of our fellow faithful are extremely upset about this change. As one of our kinsmen put it "Marvel has gone from parody of our gods and faith to outright mockery." Personally I think we have a right to be upset, not just the whole gender bending one of the senior male deities of our faith, but the continued wholesale use and abuse of our religious icons in a superhero comic book. Now cool your jets I'm not calling for torches and axes to be broken out. However we're a prideful, passionate lot we heathens, and when we get upset about something we're pissed by Hel. (Comic books fans, I can hear the gnashing of teeth, hold your horses through the next paragraph and a sentence)
Someone told me we don't deserve to be upset about this because the small and fragmented Heathen community didn't protest Thor's release when he original came out back in the early '60s. You know when you could still be assaulted, harassed or killed for not being a Protestant, and alt culture of any kind was viewed with a deep suspicion and loathing, and before the internet gave a dispersed faithful the ability to find their kinsmen again. So obviously I think this person is incorrect. Silence is not consent. Just because a culture cannot speak for itself does not give the dominate culture the right to use and abuse it as it sees fit. We do have a voice now and we as a community should put it to use. In my opinion we should contact Marvel. Not to protest this new female Thor, but to protest their rampant theft of our faith and culture.
We should not however demand they remove Thor the comic book character from their line up. At this point the character's there and the damage to whatever extent we can claim damage has been done.Thor and the gods have been Marvel characters for longer then many of us have been alive! People are invested and attached to these characters. I personally read and enjoyed Thor comics when I was a kid. He was right next to Captain America as my favorite Marvel character.
The list of thefts and other crimes the dominate culture has committed against us as a people and a faith stretches on to times where the memory grows dim and the thread of our ancestors is lost somewhat in the flames of Christian torches burning our heritage away. Writings like the Sörla þáttr were abusing and insulting the gods before the embers were even cool! In the grand scheme of things a comic book, while a slap in the face is nothing and may in fact be beneficial because it keeps the names of the gods alive. How many heathens got their start and heard the whispers of the call after reading a Marvel Thor comic and wondering at the depictions of Asgard within? After 50 years of run time it has to have been more then a few of us.
What we should do is fight for them to do right by us and the culture they've been ripping off. Get them to do a comic that features the gods as they are, the real stories of our faith and culture from the Eddas and other primary sources (no post classical christian propaganda garbage like the Sörla þáttr that so insults the gods) preferably with guidance from a larger heathen/asatru organization like the Elder Troth. I'd rather use that as a spring board to tell the real stories of the gods, of red haired Thor and golden Freyja, of Odin All Father, one handed Tyr and the things that have been, and the end which is coming. All we have to do is rise with a loud voice and ask Marvel to right by us, and all the other communities they've stolen from over the years.
What say you all? If you agree with me the Media Relations email is for this guy on Marvel's website: jeff_klein@dkcnews.com Start emailing and blasting their FB page. We can make our voices heard and get positive change for the representation of our faith. Act like adults, no cussing, no swearing, no threats. Other faiths act like that when they're upset all the time and they are properly considered disgusting. Hold the hammer high and don't bring shame on us by your deed.
Looking at this image seems new Thor isn't Angela then ...?
In November, Superior Iron Man #1 sends Tony Stark to San Francisco with a new outfit and a new perspective on life. “The Genius Bar costume is there for a reason,” Marvel editor-in-chief Axel Alonso tells EW. “The newly-transformed Superior Iron Man has very ambitious plans for the city that some of its residents embrace, but not all.” Comic book fans will note the very pointed addition of the word “Superior” to the title. The last time that happened, it was Superior Spider-Man, and Doctor Octopus took over Peter Parker’s brain. Doc Ock won’t be invading Tony’s frontal lobe, but Alonso does note, “Like the Superior Spider-Man, Superior Iron Man is a character that’s hard to root for.” The series is written by Tom Taylor and drawn by In a series written by Tom Taylor and drawn by Yildiray Cinar.
And also, a grander scheme in the form of Avengers NOW!:
Avengers NOW! goes way beyond the Big Three. All the characters in the exclusive image above will play a more prominent role in the Marvel Universe going into 2015. That makes sense for Dr. Strange, Scarlet Witch, and Ant-Man, who will be in the public eye as their film debuts move closer to release. But Marvel will also be focusing more on Inhuman characters like Medusa and Inferno, alongside the new Marvel arrival Angela, who originated as an Image character but who is being worked into Thor’s mythology.
…
Whether Scarlet Witch or Angela join their ranks will be revealed in the coming months, as Marvel moves closer to the launch of Avengers NOW!
The initiative will also feature a renewed focus on Deathlok and the Winter Soldier, and more than ten titles already in the planning stages. Expect to hear more about Avengers NOW! throughout Comic-Con. Ultron who?
It's a good try, but their skin tone's going to prevent them from winning the cultural appropriation argument.
So it's cool if the dominant Christian culture continues it's campaign of oppression against us? I suppose we should be happy they aren't burning us out of our homes any more.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Dunno if it's in another thread or not... But, aparently Captain America is getting a "new look" as well.
According to a Marvel feed on my FB page, the mantle of Cap is being taken over by an already familiar Marvel face: The Falcon.
So, now we have Thor is a woman, and Captain America is black... Is Iron Man gonna be replaced with a Mexican next??
How dare a company make an effort to appeal to a new fan base and minority culture. There's only 2934 white super-heroes left.
Or are minority heroes limited to Black Panther, Chinese Ninja Guy, and the Mexican Jumping Bean?
Yeah, after Nick Fury got torn up and remodeled after one of the coolest guys in Hollywood, and every bit of media used SLJ-Fury, I don't think the race card works. He pretty much "runs" the Marvel universe. And he's black. And badass. Put your race-card away, it lost the fight.
Look at the bright side. Now Thor will have jugs bursting from her top on the cover whilst she simultaneously looks over one shoulder showing off her buns of steel.
chromedog wrote: It's not like he didn't dress like a girl anyway.
Look at the bright side. Now Thor will have jugs bursting from her top on the cover whilst she simultaneously looks over one shoulder showing off her buns of steel.
I think we've all heard about the new change to Marvel Comic's Thor character by now. I'm doing up a larger debate post covering the concept of cultural appropriation in wider detail and what it means to us as a religion but I wanted to put my two gold pieces in about what I think about the Thor thing right now.
Many of our fellow faithful are extremely upset about this change. As one of our kinsmen put it "Marvel has gone from parody of our gods and faith to outright mockery." Personally I think we have a right to be upset, not just the whole gender bending one of the senior male deities of our faith, but the continued wholesale use and abuse of our religious icons in a superhero comic book. Now cool your jets I'm not calling for torches and axes to be broken out. However we're a prideful, passionate lot we heathens, and when we get upset about something we're pissed by Hel. (Comic books fans, I can hear the gnashing of teeth, hold your horses through the next paragraph and a sentence)
Someone told me we don't deserve to be upset about this because the small and fragmented Heathen community didn't protest Thor's release when he original came out back in the early '60s. You know when you could still be assaulted, harassed or killed for not being a Protestant, and alt culture of any kind was viewed with a deep suspicion and loathing, and before the internet gave a dispersed faithful the ability to find their kinsmen again. So obviously I think this person is incorrect. Silence is not consent. Just because a culture cannot speak for itself does not give the dominate culture the right to use and abuse it as it sees fit. We do have a voice now and we as a community should put it to use. In my opinion we should contact Marvel. Not to protest this new female Thor, but to protest their rampant theft of our faith and culture.
We should not however demand they remove Thor the comic book character from their line up. At this point the character's there and the damage to whatever extent we can claim damage has been done.Thor and the gods have been Marvel characters for longer then many of us have been alive! People are invested and attached to these characters. I personally read and enjoyed Thor comics when I was a kid. He was right next to Captain America as my favorite Marvel character.
The list of thefts and other crimes the dominate culture has committed against us as a people and a faith stretches on to times where the memory grows dim and the thread of our ancestors is lost somewhat in the flames of Christian torches burning our heritage away. Writings like the Sörla þáttr were abusing and insulting the gods before the embers were even cool! In the grand scheme of things a comic book, while a slap in the face is nothing and may in fact be beneficial because it keeps the names of the gods alive. How many heathens got their start and heard the whispers of the call after reading a Marvel Thor comic and wondering at the depictions of Asgard within? After 50 years of run time it has to have been more then a few of us.
What we should do is fight for them to do right by us and the culture they've been ripping off. Get them to do a comic that features the gods as they are, the real stories of our faith and culture from the Eddas and other primary sources (no post classical christian propaganda garbage like the Sörla þáttr that so insults the gods) preferably with guidance from a larger heathen/asatru organization like the Elder Troth. I'd rather use that as a spring board to tell the real stories of the gods, of red haired Thor and golden Freyja, of Odin All Father, one handed Tyr and the things that have been, and the end which is coming. All we have to do is rise with a loud voice and ask Marvel to right by us, and all the other communities they've stolen from over the years.
What say you all? If you agree with me the Media Relations email is for this guy on Marvel's website: jeff_klein@dkcnews.com Start emailing and blasting their FB page. We can make our voices heard and get positive change for the representation of our faith. Act like adults, no cussing, no swearing, no threats. Other faiths act like that when they're upset all the time and they are properly considered disgusting. Hold the hammer high and don't bring shame on us by your deed.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Dunno if it's in another thread or not... But, aparently Captain America is getting a "new look" as well.
According to a Marvel feed on my FB page, the mantle of Cap is being taken over by an already familiar Marvel face: The Falcon.
So, now we have Thor is a woman, and Captain America is black... Is Iron Man gonna be replaced with a Mexican next??
How dare a company make an effort to appeal to a new fan base and minority culture. There's only 2934 white super-heroes left.
Or are minority heroes limited to Black Panther, Chinese Ninja Guy, and the Mexican Jumping Bean?
Yeah, after Nick Fury got torn up and remodeled after one of the coolest guys in Hollywood, and every bit of media used SLJ-Fury, I don't think the race card works. He pretty much "runs" the Marvel universe. And he's black. And badass. Put your race-card away, it lost the fight.
He doesn't actually. Maria Hill is in charge of shield; Nick Fury Jr is just a fairly high ranking SHIELD agent. He "runs" the Marvel Universe about as much as Coulson does.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Dunno if it's in another thread or not... But, aparently Captain America is getting a "new look" as well.
According to a Marvel feed on my FB page, the mantle of Cap is being taken over by an already familiar Marvel face: The Falcon.
So, now we have Thor is a woman, and Captain America is black... Is Iron Man gonna be replaced with a Mexican next??
How dare a company make an effort to appeal to a new fan base and minority culture. There's only 2934 white super-heroes left.
Or are minority heroes limited to Black Panther, Chinese Ninja Guy, and the Mexican Jumping Bean?
Yeah, after Nick Fury got torn up and remodeled after one of the coolest guys in Hollywood, and every bit of media used SLJ-Fury, I don't think the race card works. He pretty much "runs" the Marvel universe. And he's black. And badass. Put your race-card away, it lost the fight.
Funny thing. I'm not only incredibly white and nerdy, but hail from Whitebread Oklahoma. I have no race card to put away. I DO get annoyed when the "White Male" complains about losing his stranglehold on things. I took Ensis and his post in jest. Your quickness to accuse me of holding a race card shows us all a glimpse of how you feel about racial equality in comic book media.
Also before anyone gets freaked out about how "none of the original Avengers are in that team picture"; It isn't a team picture. It's an image showing the characters from across the Marvel Universe that will be getting their own series or more attention in the coming months.
I repeat: The image is not the new avengers team it is merely showing who will be getting more focus/their own ongoing series in the coming months.
Wouldn't it be logical to assume that heroes so vested in their identity and mission would want to make sure it is carried on by a new generation?
In real life, for instance, Reed Richards would be well past 100, and unless he had some kind of anti aging formula, would have long ago passed the "Torch", heh, to someone else.
Don't know if this has been put up yet but, to use a much used quote,
Wait, there's a group of people that "follow" the old Norse religion?
Well, somewhat- to the best of my knowledge they have omitted the whole human sacrifice element of it. I always found the Norse gods a bit dark and bloody for my taste- really more suited to a combatant culture, but many do find comfort and guidance in following them. I know a few. They love fighting and partying.
Thor(Person) is the Prince of Asgard (I think per the comics his only natural abilities are strength, speed, durability, and long age). Thor(Superhero) is the guy with the powers granted to him by Mjolnir (flight, manipulate the weather, lightning, dimensional transportation). The tough guy is Thor(P), the superhero powers of Thor(S) come from the hammer, he does not naturally have them. Most of the time Thor(P) and Thor(S) is the same person. But at times, they are not.
Incorrect. Thor's powers come from being Thor. The whole Mjolnir imbues the powers of Thor upon its wielder thing is a recent development. In-universe, Odin punished Thor for being a prick by separating his powers from his body and imbuing them within the hammer.
Ouze wrote: I think it's a fair argument that Bruce Wayne is actually the alter-ego of Batman.
Agreed, its a topic thats been covered in the comics as well.
Can anyone identify metal-face, flamey-guy and too-much-red-hair-girl in that pic? The rest I know, and that's some snazzy new armour for Ironman.
Kanluwen wrote: Maybe you can claim to be Thor because you have the Hammer, but you still aren't the Thor. You're just a guy with his powers. Which is why in the comics you have this inscription on Mjolnir:
Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor.
not
Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall become Thor.
Yeah, Kan wins. This is the most succinct explanation there is. It's still stupid that they're doing it rather than elevating Sif or Valkyrie or creating a new Asgardian character, but Thor is still Thor.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: So, now we have Thor is a woman, and Captain America is black... Is Iron Man gonna be replaced with a Mexican next??
Ms. Marvel's now a Muslim. Don't forget that.
If it weren't already partially owned by DC, they could change the Avengers into the "Social Justice League".
I do not know for sure how they're doing it or anything, but I kind of feel like Sif or Valkyrie or just a brand new "Look! This lady has become Lady with Thor's Powers!" character being 'elevated' would be neat...but also kind of a cop-out.
I'd love to see Sif get her own series with the Warriors Three though if that does not exist.
Thor(Person) is the Prince of Asgard (I think per the comics his only natural abilities are strength, speed, durability, and long age). Thor(Superhero) is the guy with the powers granted to him by Mjolnir (flight, manipulate the weather, lightning, dimensional transportation). The tough guy is Thor(P), the superhero powers of Thor(S) come from the hammer, he does not naturally have them. Most of the time Thor(P) and Thor(S) is the same person. But at times, they are not.
Incorrect. Thor's powers come from being Thor. The whole Mjolnir imbues the powers of Thor upon its wielder thing is a recent development. In-universe, Odin punished Thor for being a prick by separating his powers from his body and imbuing them within the hammer.
Ouze wrote: I think it's a fair argument that Bruce Wayne is actually the alter-ego of Batman.
Agreed, its a topic thats been covered in the comics as well.
So what you meant to say is "Incorrect. Thor's powers used to come from being Thor." I mean, you say that he's wrong, and here's why, and then within a sentence go "well, that's what used to be the case anyway". I know you don't want it to be the case, but as you wrote yourself; Thor's powers are now imbued by the hammer, not by virtue of being Thor.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Dunno if it's in another thread or not... But, aparently Captain America is getting a "new look" as well.
According to a Marvel feed on my FB page, the mantle of Cap is being taken over by an already familiar Marvel face: The Falcon.
So, now we have Thor is a woman, and Captain America is black... Is Iron Man gonna be replaced with a Mexican next??
How dare a company make an effort to appeal to a new fan base and minority culture. There's only 2934 white super-heroes left.
Or are minority heroes limited to Black Panther, Chinese Ninja Guy, and the Mexican Jumping Bean?
As previously mentioned (in relation to She-Thor), the problem is:
1) It tells the majority that "This is a 0-sum game. You lose.
2) By making a character "Minority-X", they rather limit the character so their defining trait is being "Fem-Thor" or "Black Captain" instead of making them their own character.
As far as Falcon being the new Cap, that's fine. Other people have been Cap before. Steve'll get his super-soldier serum back and everything will go back to the way it was eventually. I mean, I like Falcon as Falcon, but there's no reason he can't be Cap for a while.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Dunno if it's in another thread or not... But, aparently Captain America is getting a "new look" as well.
According to a Marvel feed on my FB page, the mantle of Cap is being taken over by an already familiar Marvel face: The Falcon.
So, now we have Thor is a woman, and Captain America is black... Is Iron Man gonna be replaced with a Mexican next??
How dare a company make an effort to appeal to a new fan base and minority culture. There's only 2934 white super-heroes left.
Or are minority heroes limited to Black Panther, Chinese Ninja Guy, and the Mexican Jumping Bean?
Mexican Jumping Bean?
Is that a racial slur?
Haha, yes, but only in a sarcastic way. The post I was replying to seemed to have a problem with conventional white superheroes having minority alter ego's. If you look at past super-heroes of obvious ethnic origin, they follow a very stereotyped and super-racially defined theme.
Even Falcon, the new Cap, couldn't be a superhero for ANY good reason. He HAD to be a pimp-thug who was BRAINWASHED into being a good guy by Red Skull and given powers in a long drawn out scheme to take out Captain America.
Storm being the main exception. I always thought she was done very well by Marvel as she had non-stereotyped flavor, kickass powers, and was intelligent and even led the X-men for a stint.
Crazy_Carnifex wrote: As previously mentioned (in relation to She-Thor), the problem is:
1) It tells the majority that "This is a 0-sum game. You lose.
2) By making a character "Minority-X", they rather limit the character so their defining trait is being "Fem-Thor" or "Black Captain" instead of making them their own character.
Exactly.
When they made Ms. Marvel this new Pakistani-American girl, they didn't do it to replace the old one. The original Ms. Marvel (Carol Danvers) is out there as Captain Marvel, taking up the name of the person who inspired her (the original Captain Marvel). This new Ms. Marvel chose the name because Danvers inspired her. It's creating a new character in a believable way, and that she just happens to be Muslim is a side issue (not that Marvel won't stop reminding you ever second page, but whatever).
Even Falcon, the new Cap, couldn't be a superhero for ANY good reason. He HAD to be a pimp-thug who was BRAINWASHED into being a good guy by Red Skull and given powers in a long drawn out scheme to take out Captain America.
Storm being the main exception. I always thought she was done very well by Marvel as she had non-stereotyped flavor, kickass powers, and was intelligent and even led the X-men for a stint.
What about Black Panther? A warrior-king who's very dangerous. Deathlok, all kinds of awesome? James Rhodes? Stark's best buddy and an up-gunned Iron Man. Those are all decent characters in their own right.
Interesting conversation I had with my cousin, who has written the following books.. (This is reference to this being an attack on Asatru.)
Love and Hate in Asatru, Loki: Bound Between Fire and Ice, Divine Feminine in Asatru: Achieving Spiritual Balance in Asatru, Asatru Book of Days, Love and Hate in Asatru: A perspective of Asatru in our lives.
Me:
"Hey cousin, I have a question. Marvel has recently announced a story-line for the Thor comic in which Thor loses his powers and a woman takes over the "mantle" of Thor, including his powers and his portfolio of responsibilities. Do you find this as an affront or insult to Astaru?"
Bryan: "It's a comic. The purpose is to sell more of them. As a Disney shareholder I'm all for making money. It creates the same kind of demand as killing a character off without the hard feelings. From an Asatru perspective it gets people to looking. And anything that causes people to take a closer look at the indigenous polytheistic faith of their ancestors is far more important that the butthurt flowing thru some asatruars. But some of them have a point they wouldn't dare do it to Jesus or Mohammed. But by the same token we have failed to promote Asatru as a viable option that provides positive purpose guidance and direction. Whose fault is it?"
Me: "That's a fair point. Further, I don't think the comic industry would have the beans to make Jesus a super-hero in the first place, or Muhammahed for that matter."
Bryan: "However one wishes to view the matter those old gods are still here all around us. From our popular culture espousing heroism and right and wrong to our holidays and even the days of the week. I choose to think there is something worthy of consideration there. Much more so than believe or die."
KalashnikovMarine wrote: So it's cool if the dominant Christian culture continues it's campaign of oppression against us? I suppose we should be happy they aren't burning us out of our homes any more.
Cool? Nah. But that's the way Tumblr slacktivism works, I'm afraid.
Thunderfrog wrote: Interesting conversation I had with my cousin, who has written the following books.. (This is reference to this being an attack on Asatru.)
Love and Hate in Asatru, Loki: Bound Between Fire and Ice, Divine Feminine in Asatru: Achieving Spiritual Balance in Asatru, Asatru Book of Days, Love and Hate in Asatru: A perspective of Asatru in our lives.
Me:
"Hey cousin, I have a question. Marvel has recently announced a story-line for the Thor comic in which Thor loses his powers and a woman takes over the "mantle" of Thor, including his powers and his portfolio of responsibilities. Do you find this as an affront or insult to Astaru?"
Bryan: "It's a comic. The purpose is to sell more of them. As a Disney shareholder I'm all for making money. It creates the same kind of demand as killing a character off without the hard feelings. From an Asatru perspective it gets people to looking. And anything that causes people to take a closer look at the indigenous polytheistic faith of their ancestors is far more important that the butthurt flowing thru some asatruars. But some of them have a point they wouldn't dare do it to Jesus or Mohammed. But by the same token we have failed to promote Asatru as a viable option that provides positive purpose guidance and direction. Whose fault is it?"
Me: "That's a fair point. Further, I don't think the comic industry would have the beans to make Jesus a super-hero in the first place, or Muhammahed for that matter."
Bryan: "However one wishes to view the matter those old gods are still here all around us. From our popular culture espousing heroism and right and wrong to our holidays and even the days of the week. I choose to think there is something worthy of consideration there. Much more so than believe or die."
Interesting stuff.
A Muhammad comic book would be the first comic I'll ever buy.
I highly respect your brother. Our kin, mostly, shares the same perspective as this simply being an image being used and not the actual Aesir himself.
On the other hand, they do use Jesus, for example, e.g. the countless Christian merchandise and think of "The Passion of the Christ" that caused an uproar among Christians as well.
Our view is: why would you be upset about such a decision? They did not use the image of Thor to purposefully disdain Asatru, they used it because it still is a very powerful image that sells well and the image of a strong thunder god simply appeals to a lot of viewers. Why would I, as an Asatru, be offended then? I know that the actual Thor is completely different from the Thor portrayed in the Disney movies. And after all, the image that's portrayed still is the image of a strong, anthropogenic god which isn't too bad, is it?
I know a lot of Asatru who are upset about it, but we aren't worried in the slightiest. The bigger problem are German nazis still using our imagery for their very own purposes and the endless struggles we have with those groups. We got so many lawsuits going on against them and it's going so slow. But then again: perseverance is a high virtue
Christ / Mohammed are less safe for mainstream media because there would be a huge uproar. Asatru are too wide-spread to cause such an uproar. But then again - why bother? If someone wants to believe that Heimdall is black and Bifrost is a subway station, then so be it. If someone wants to know more about it, every Asatru will be glad to help him understand what this is actually about.
@Thunderfrog: Nothing too shocking there, to be honest. People are capable of distinguishing between a change in a comic book and a real-world faith, which is something I would hope most are able to do.
My issue with the Thor change is the following:
1) The 'Thor loses powers, so other guy/girl/alien' gets them has been done before. It's unoriginal
2) All of those people got Thor's power, but fundamentally not Thor. Masterson was Thunderstrike, his son (I think) was Thunderstrike II, Beta-Ray Bill was Beta-Ray Bill. Thor is the guy's name, not his title or role.
3) There are plenty of other characters that could be 'promoted' that would be of more long-term worth than Thoretta (who will inevitably vanish after her arc is done). Valkyrie or Sif would ultimately be more sustainable in that role.
4) It's a pointless gesture (if it is indeed a gesture). Looking at the Avengers NOW lineup, I'm not sure how they can claim this represents less of a gender bias in comics when the woman next to Thor still has a ridiculously impractical and objectifying costume.
I also note that, to my knowledge, Marvel have not said it is an attempt to reduce gender bias, but some people have seized on the idea as justification for lazy writing when clearly it's not.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Can anyone identify metal-face, flamey-guy and too-much-red-hair-girl in that pic? The rest I know, and that's some snazzy new armour for Ironman.
Metalface: Deathlok, the cyborg assassin
Flamey Guy is some inhuman I don't know.
Too-much-red-hair-girl is Medusa, Black Bolt's wife and queen of the Inhumans.
I can't help but wonder if this has anything to do with that really pretty girl that cos=plays thor all over the place.
I can see some Marvel exec seeing her and thinking he's suddenly had a great idea for a character. And also, yea, I get real tired of female heroes in ankle-breaker boots-heels.
H.B.M.C. wrote: As far as Falcon being the new Cap, that's fine. Other people have been Cap before. Steve'll get his super-soldier serum back and everything will go back to the way it was eventually. I mean, I like Falcon as Falcon, but there's no reason he can't be Cap for a while.
Falcon being Cap makes perfect sense. If Cap got to choose his successor, he would chose Falcon. Bucky has too much baggage with the whole Winter Soldier thing for Cap to hand him the shield. I think FalconCap is a good idea.
Even Falcon, the new Cap, couldn't be a superhero for ANY good reason. He HAD to be a pimp-thug who was BRAINWASHED into being a good guy by Red Skull and given powers in a long drawn out scheme to take out Captain America.
I'm pretty sure Marvel doesn't use this as Falcon's actual origin anymore. Or if they haven't changed it, I do know they've stopped talking about it.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Can anyone identify metal-face, flamey-guy and too-much-red-hair-girl in that pic? The rest I know, and that's some snazzy new armour for Ironman.
Metal-Face is Deathlok (getting his own ongoing series), Flamey guy is Dante (aka 'Inferno') an Inhuman who underwent terrigenesis in the aftermath of Infinity, and too much red hair girl is Medusa, queen of the Inhumans.
Thanks for the info. I know Black Bolt, and I understand what Terrigenesis and the Terrigen Mists are, but I'm not familiar with the rest of the group.
H.B.M.C. wrote: As far as Falcon being the new Cap, that's fine. Other people have been Cap before. Steve'll get his super-soldier serum back and everything will go back to the way it was eventually. I mean, I like Falcon as Falcon, but there's no reason he can't be Cap for a while.
Falcon being Cap makes perfect sense. If Cap got to choose his successor, he would chose Falcon. Bucky has too much baggage with the whole Winter Soldier thing for Cap to hand him the shield. I think FalconCap is a good idea.
My only issue with FalCap, as someone who doesn't currently read the comics, is that I can almost see Falcon turning the job down. From what I read of him (in the Civil War sort of era) Falcon had so much respect for Cap that he would be seriously annoyed if anyone other than Steve wore the suit, so it seems almost unlikely that he'd do it, as it would, to him, almost be disrespectful to Cap. However, with Cap still alive rather than dead, I suppose that changes things.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Thanks for the info. I know Black Bolt, and I understand what Terrigenesis and the Terrigen Mists are, but I'm not familiar with the rest of the group.
Do you mean the Inhumans in general? basically imagine the x-men, but rather than their abilities activating at puberty they activate upon Terrigenesis. They're the result of kree meddling in the DNA of humans, and they live in their own little kingdom called Attilan. It used to be on the moon, then it moved so it was floating above New York, and then during Infinity Black Bolt destroyed it to try and take out Thanos (after evacuating everyone), so now it's floating in the Hudson River. There are also a few scattered tribes spread across the planet, though due to the destruction of Attilan (with a terrigen bomb) the entirety of the earth is undergoing terrigenesis, so new Inhuman are popping up all over the place (such as Inferno).
Also I think that technically the new Ms. Marvel is an inhuman?
Funny thing. I'm not only incredibly white and nerdy, but hail from Whitebread Oklahoma. I have no race card to put away. I DO get annoyed when the "White Male" complains about losing his stranglehold on things. I took Ensis and his post in jest. Your quickness to accuse me of holding a race card shows us all a glimpse of how you feel about racial equality in comic book media.
As you should've taken my post in jest (on the flip side, it's hard to take me seriously when I've got Deadpool giving the thumbs up sign right next to everything I say... it lends a certain air of sarcasm no matter what )
As to the guys who've said ITT that they follow Asatru, mind if I PM ya for some info??
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also... for a "Jesus" comic book character, they should give him the "Cyclops laser" but from holes in his hands
So what you meant to say is "Incorrect. Thor's powers used to come from being Thor." I mean, you say that he's wrong, and here's why, and then within a sentence go "well, that's what used to be the case anyway". I know you don't want it to be the case, but as you wrote yourself; Thor's powers are now imbued by the hammer, not by virtue of being Thor.
Except you miss the key point, that Thor is still Thor regardless of whether or not he wields Mjolnir and/or has his powers. Wielding Mjolnir does not make you Thor, it makes you the wielder of Thors power... but you're still not Thor, because Thor is Thor. The fact that Thor's powers no longer naturally come from him (which they did originally) is irrelevant, because Thor isn't his alias or superhero name or whatever it is you want to call it, nor are his powers a part of his alter ego, its all a part of Thor being Thor, even if he can only continue to wield those powers while wielding Mjolnir.
In other words, as stated prior, he who holds Mjolnir wields the power of Thor, not he who holds Mjolnir is Thor.
The crux of your argument is that Thor is both his name and his superhero title, and the superhero title happens to be a function of him using Mjolnir, and thus whoever is using Mjolnir is Thor. I just explained to you why that isn't the case (because up until recently Thor was Thor regardless of Mjolnir, meaning the identity of Thor isn't a function of his hammer and/or powers, but rather a function of his being him).
Exactly.
When they made Ms. Marvel this new Pakistani-American girl, they didn't do it to replace the old one. The original Ms. Marvel (Carol Danvers) is out there as Captain Marvel, taking up the name of the person who inspired her (the original Captain Marvel). This new Ms. Marvel chose the name because Danvers inspired her. It's creating a new character in a believable way, and that she just happens to be Muslim is a side issue (not that Marvel won't stop reminding you ever second page, but whatever).
The She-Thor thing is different.
Well said and agreed.
2) All of those people got Thor's power, but fundamentally not Thor. Masterson was Thunderstrike, his son (I think) was Thunderstrike II, Beta-Ray Bill was Beta-Ray Bill. Thor is the guy's name, not his title or role.
Oh, I agree that it's a bit of a dick move to call yourself Thor, but there is some justification for it. From what I can tell, in-universe they're not going to be too happy that she's calling herself Thor either.
H.B.M.C. wrote: As far as Falcon being the new Cap, that's fine. Other people have been Cap before. Steve'll get his super-soldier serum back and everything will go back to the way it was eventually. I mean, I like Falcon as Falcon, but there's no reason he can't be Cap for a while.
You kind of have to wonder at that conversation...
SR: Falcon, would you like to be Captain America for a while?"
F: "What? I'm already a superhero. I'm Falcon. I've got a name. And fans."
SR: "Er... yeah. But you could be Captain America."
F: "... So, that's a promotion to you? You think I'd just dump my own name and identity at the chance to 'elevate' myself to Captain America. So, all this time we've been friends, you always thought of me as what? Second-rate? Third tier? Sidekick? Chopped dog meat?"
SR: "I'm just saying. Captain America! Think about it. There's a uniform and a code of conduct and..."
F: "You know what? F--- you."
SR: "Oh yeah, and tons of groupies."
F: "..."
SR: (smiles)
F: "Fine. But I want a new uniform. One that fits me this time."
I can't help but wonder since thor gets a considerable portion of his powers from a girdle and girdles were traditionally worn by females if female thor will be stronger (and better fit by her girdle too)!
I also can't help but wonder if this an excuse to have shethor and sif get into some lesbionic light petting. I'm thinking the 2nd option is far more likely
You kind of have to wonder at that conversation...
SR: Falcon, would you like to be Captain America for a while?"
F: "What? I'm already a superhero. I'm Falcon. I've got a name. And fans."
SR: "Er... yeah. But you could be Captain America."
F: "... So, that's a promotion to you? You think I'd just dump my own name and identity at the chance to 'elevate' myself to Captain America. So, all this time we've been friends, you always thought of me as what? Second-rate? Third tier? Sidekick? Chopped dog meat?"
SR: "I'm just saying. Captain America! Think about it. There's a uniform and a code of conduct and..."
You kind of have to wonder at that conversation...
SR: Falcon, would you like to be Captain America for a while?"
F: "What? I'm already a superhero. I'm Falcon. I've got a name. And fans."
SR: "Er... yeah. But you could be Captain America."
F: "... So, that's a promotion to you? You think I'd just dump my own name and identity at the chance to 'elevate' myself to Captain America. So, all this time we've been friends, you always thought of me as what? Second-rate? Third tier? Sidekick? Chopped dog meat?"
SR: "I'm just saying. Captain America! Think about it. There's a uniform and a code of conduct and..."
F: "You know what? F--- you."
This was the high point of the thread, I think.
Indeed. Have an Exalt, Bob!
Reminds me of a brilliant bit of Civil War:
News Reporter: Despite his fugitive nature, Captain America stepped in to halt the robbery... Falcon: AND The Falcon! Jesus, I have sidekick syndrome as it is!
H.B.M.C. wrote: As far as Falcon being the new Cap, that's fine. Other people have been Cap before. Steve'll get his super-soldier serum back and everything will go back to the way it was eventually. I mean, I like Falcon as Falcon, but there's no reason he can't be Cap for a while.
H.B.M.C. wrote: As far as Falcon being the new Cap, that's fine. Other people have been Cap before. Steve'll get his super-soldier serum back and everything will go back to the way it was eventually. I mean, I like Falcon as Falcon, but there's no reason he can't be Cap for a while.
You kind of have to wonder at that conversation...
SR: Falcon, would you like to be Captain America for a while?"
F: "What? I'm already a superhero. I'm Falcon. I've got a name. And fans."
SR: "Er... yeah. But you could be Captain America."
F: "... So, that's a promotion to you? You think I'd just dump my own name and identity at the chance to 'elevate' myself to Captain America. So, all this time we've been friends, you always thought of me as what? Second-rate? Third tier? Sidekick? Chopped dog meat?"
SR: "I'm just saying. Captain America! Think about it. There's a uniform and a code of conduct and..."
F: "You know what? F--- you."
SR: "Oh yeah, and tons of groupies."
F: "..."
SR: (smiles)
F: "Fine. But I want a new uniform. One that fits me this time."
Since they're both military (at least as of CA: Winter Soldier) there's gotta be a bit of this:
F: You're only offering me this because it's February, aren't you?
SR: .......*drops head* "yeah.... But hey!!! If you don't like it, it could always be a temporary assignment!"
You kind of have to wonder at that conversation...
SR: Falcon, would you like to be Captain America for a while?"
F: "What? I'm already a superhero. I'm Falcon. I've got a name. And fans."
SR: "Er... yeah. But you could be Captain America."
F: "... So, that's a promotion to you? You think I'd just dump my own name and identity at the chance to 'elevate' myself to Captain America. So, all this time we've been friends, you always thought of me as what? Second-rate? Third tier? Sidekick? Chopped dog meat?"
SR: "I'm just saying. Captain America! Think about it. There's a uniform and a code of conduct and..."
F: "You know what? F--- you."
This was the high point of the thread, I think.
What's the dealio about Falcon being Captain America? I think this is cool as hell...
Unless the complaint is that Falcon should be his own thing?
Caveat: Falcon was the best thing in the recent movie. F'n love the character and what makes "The Falcon™".
Thunderfrog wrote: Interesting conversation I had with my cousin, who has written the following books.. (This is reference to this being an attack on Asatru.)
Love and Hate in Asatru, Loki: Bound Between Fire and Ice, Divine Feminine in Asatru: Achieving Spiritual Balance in Asatru, Asatru Book of Days, Love and Hate in Asatru: A perspective of Asatru in our lives.
Me:
"Hey cousin, I have a question. Marvel has recently announced a story-line for the Thor comic in which Thor loses his powers and a woman takes over the "mantle" of Thor, including his powers and his portfolio of responsibilities. Do you find this as an affront or insult to Astaru?"
Bryan: "It's a comic. The purpose is to sell more of them. As a Disney shareholder I'm all for making money. It creates the same kind of demand as killing a character off without the hard feelings. From an Asatru perspective it gets people to looking. And anything that causes people to take a closer look at the indigenous polytheistic faith of their ancestors is far more important that the butthurt flowing thru some asatruars. But some of them have a point they wouldn't dare do it to Jesus or Mohammed. But by the same token we have failed to promote Asatru as a viable option that provides positive purpose guidance and direction. Whose fault is it?"
Me: "That's a fair point. Further, I don't think the comic industry would have the beans to make Jesus a super-hero in the first place, or Muhammahed for that matter."
Bryan: "However one wishes to view the matter those old gods are still here all around us. From our popular culture espousing heroism and right and wrong to our holidays and even the days of the week. I choose to think there is something worthy of consideration there. Much more so than believe or die."
Interesting stuff.
When we're one of the fastest growing heathen/pagan faiths in the world can we really say we've failed? One does pillage English and France in a day after all. I would love to see Space Pilot Mecha Jesus comics though. He could team up with Rocket Raccoon. I'd also disagree with the characterization of the heathens who are upset about this as going "believe or die" but rather people who are seriously invested in something being upset. Which happens. As we well know. (Please see Dakka Discussions for reference )
Personally I don't see a good reason to get upset about the new Lady Thor, unless you reject Marvel having or using clown paint characterizations of our gods in the first place. Which is more what I've steered the conversation for in my groups. Marvel is just a company looking at a new idea to make money. If their Thor character having cans will do that, more power to them. Turn the outrage into something positive. Instead of trying to take a concept that has become a character for 50 years, which makes us look like donkey-caves, and frankly won't happen. Ever. Turn rage and butthurt into something positive. Ask Marvel to do a series about the REAL stories. Straight from the Eddas and Sagas. Nothing's being taken from them, and we stand to gain, especially with a comic audience that apparently at least LIKES the concepts of our stories.
Sigvatr wrote: I highly respect your brother. Our kin, mostly, shares the same perspective as this simply being an image being used and not the actual Aesir himself.
On the other hand, they do use Jesus, for example, e.g. the countless Christian merchandise and think of "The Passion of the Christ" that caused an uproar among Christians as well.
Our view is: why would you be upset about such a decision? They did not use the image of Thor to purposefully disdain Asatru, they used it because it still is a very powerful image that sells well and the image of a strong thunder god simply appeals to a lot of viewers. Why would I, as an Asatru, be offended then? I know that the actual Thor is completely different from the Thor portrayed in the Disney movies. And after all, the image that's portrayed still is the image of a strong, anthropogenic god which isn't too bad, is it?
I know a lot of Asatru who are upset about it, but we aren't worried in the slightest. The bigger problem are German nazis still using our imagery for their very own purposes and the endless struggles we have with those groups. We got so many lawsuits going on against them and it's going so slow. But then again: perseverance is a high virtue
Christ / Mohammed are less safe for mainstream media because there would be a huge uproar. Asatru are too wide-spread to cause such an uproar. But then again - why bother? If someone wants to believe that Heimdall is black and Bifrost is a subway station, then so be it. If someone wants to know more about it, every Asatru will be glad to help him understand what this is actually about.
I don't think any one in the faith is forgetting those Nazi *insert your own colorful stream of cursing here kids! A fun activity for all ages!* though interestingly from an appropriation perspective it's similar to Marvel using Thor. Those symbols, be they the valknut, various runes, the swastika, the blood cross (SS really liked that one) and as they (Nazis ) have tried to cloak themselves in more respectable movements and religion far more obscure symbols besides.
However Thor and Marvel's copy paste of the Norse pantheon and 50+ year use of the faith as a free idea bucket it's worth having the conversation "Hey are we /really/ okay with them ripping us off like this? specifically because it's so high profile it's worth considering. There's also the perspective that using the Norse gods as fictional characters reinforces the idea that they are fictional, instead of living active gods with active followers. To some people that can be legitimately construed as hurtful or offensive.
Goliath wrote: Well no, because the Thor that's the son of the king, and the Thor that's female are two different people...
If they were... Marvel would probably have their first, full-time crossdressing/transgendered character
You know, that would actually make for a very good secret identity, wouldn't it? Much better than the infamous Kent glasses. Spandex would be much more difficult though- I'd expect some bulkier armor.
That's a whole lot of nope. Why feth with Thor? Why not make someone new, or feature more people like Ms. Marvel or BlackCat or BlackWidow? BlackWidow fething rocked.
jreilly89 wrote: That's a whole lot of nope. Why feth with Thor? Why not make someone new, or feature more people like Ms. Marvel or BlackCat or BlackWidow? BlackWidow fething rocked.
Well Ms. Marvel is a young girl from New York who's only on #6 of their first series at the moment, Black Cat is going full on psychopath and attempting to kill Spiderman after being put in prison by Superior Spiderman, and Black Widow also recently got a new ongoing series and is currently on issue #8.
Are those enough reasons as to why those characters aren't the focus of the new series?
Goliath wrote: Well no, because the Thor that's the son of the king, and the Thor that's female are two different people...
If they were... Marvel would probably have their first, full-time crossdressing/transgendered character
You know, that would actually make for a very good secret identity, wouldn't it? Much better than the infamous Kent glasses. Spandex would be much more difficult though- I'd expect some bulkier armor.
Well the idea is sound to me, just added the current Thor book to my subs and the new one is in the pre-order section. Looking forward to seeing where the story goes.
Goliath wrote: Well Ms. Marvel is a young girl from New York
EXCUSE ME!??!?!?!? NEW YORK!??!?!?!?!?!?! RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SHE'S FROM JERSEY CITY, IN NEW JERSEY AND DON'T YOU EVER FORGET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The revelation of Thor being a Disney princess is pretty hilarious though.
Sorry I just knew that she was hit by the terrigen cloud fairly early on, so assumed it was close to Attilan when it fell into New York Seeing as I'm not all that up on US geography (a ski trip to North Conway in New Hampshire having been my only visit to the area) I went for the only area I knew was in the vicinity
Hi, I'm John Stewart and I'm a marginalized side character. When looking to put a minority in an animated series I'm the first they call. They also try to make sure I sound and act ethnic so you know I am black. For fun you can add "can you dig it" or "sucka" to any statement I make in JL or JLU cartoon, and it will fit right in.
Ahtman wrote: Hi, I'm John Stewart and I'm a marginalized side character. When looking to put a minority in an animated series I'm the first they call. They also try to make sure I sound and act ethnic so you know I am black. For fun you can add "can you dig it" or "sucka" to any statement I make in JL or JLU cartoon, and it will fit right in.
.png/200px-Beta_Ray_Bill_(Earth-616).png)
I had meant to add more but asgard, norse and mjolnir are really difficult to fit into other words.
) have tried to cloak themselves in more respectable movements and religion far more obscure symbols besides.
I just knew that she was hit by the terrigen cloud fairly early on, so assumed it was close to Attilan when it fell into New York 
