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 Sigvatr wrote:
So, what if Thor should surprisingly (haha!) become worthy again? Will She-Thor just step down and be like "Yo, here you go again bud!"?

Hopefully.

This is some lame-ass-gak. I'm not a huge comic nut, but I prefer a little bit of continuity and not fething around with characters genders. You want to empower women, Marvel? Great idea, go make a new comic strip with a female main, or take an already-established minor female character and give her her own series and empower her. Don't mess around with my man Thor!

 Sigvatr wrote:
So, what if Thor should surprisingly (haha!) become worthy again? Will She-Thor just step down and be like "Yo, here you go again bud!"?

Well, it has happened before where, in times of dire need, Thor has called on the services of alternate dimensional versions of himself. IIRC there was a Ragnarok story arc where, in order to defeat the big baddie at the end, Thor had to team up with Beta-Ray Bill and all the other "Thor's" to kick ass and take names.... So, I'd guess she-Thor would either end up in the same situation, or, as it's been pointed out, she could be given her own weapon and a new persona... Perhaps even replacing Valkyrie, or "joining" Valkyrie to become more of an X-Men type of super-women-hero group (it's been somewhat established that there was not a singular Valkyrie in the Norse tradition, but rather one Valkyrie per "female emotion"... and the Vikings had over 50 different words/names for a woman's anger )

To be fair, Beta-Ray Bill is in the same dimesion.

That depends on the character of the new FemThor. In the case of previous 'Thors', when the real Thor reasserts himself, frequently the 'imposters' were awarded mystical weapons of some sort or another so they could continue heroing in some capacity. Eric Masterson/Thunderstrike received a mace (called Thunderstrike) for example (which gives him all the abilities of Thor, though not to the same level). Beta Ray Bill received Stormbreaker, which is effectively Mjolnir's twin, and which gives Beta Ray Bill *literally* all of Thors exact powers and exact strengths, etc.

The best thing that can come of this is that FemThor does her Thor thang for a while, then the real Thor becomes *THE* Thor again, and FemThor takes on the mantle of Valkyrie or whatever and is awarded whatever Asgardian weapon it is that makes her a BAMF character, probably a spear and magic helmet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
So, what if Thor should surprisingly (haha!) become worthy again? Will She-Thor just step down and be like "Yo, here you go again bud!"?

Well, it has happened before where, in times of dire need, Thor has called on the services of alternate dimensional versions of himself. IIRC there was a Ragnarok story arc where, in order to defeat the big baddie at the end, Thor had to team up with Beta-Ray Bill and all the other "Thor's" to kick ass and take names.... So, I'd guess she-Thor would either end up in the same situation, or, as it's been pointed out, she could be given her own weapon and a new persona... Perhaps even replacing Valkyrie, or "joining" Valkyrie to become more of an X-Men type of super-women-hero group (it's been somewhat established that there was not a singular Valkyrie in the Norse tradition, but rather one Valkyrie per "female emotion"... and the Vikings had over 50 different words/names for a woman's anger )

The character of Valkyrie within Marvel continuity is a separate and distinct singular character.

I want female space marines more then anything

I also think that when it comes to empowerment, this is a fail. It's a total, absolute fail.

Firstly, Female Thor almost promotes the long-held view by misogynists that to empower women, you have to take away from men. For the sake of correctness and change, we're messing with a longheld and muchloved character... this isn't going to work out well. I never like when they mess with any of my favorite characters: they always turn out lame, illogical, or they get boring and are reverted quickly. This isn't just some crusade against FemThor; I also hated it when they did the Angelic Punisher, Postapocalyptic Superman with a Santa beard, Doctor Hulk, and all the other incredibly lame changes that were changes "just for the sake of change".

Female Thor will never be a truly empowering and interesting character, because she will always be in the shadow of her male counterpart. We all know Thor, what Thor does, and to an extent all Thor comics rely on a strong hint of nostalgia and remembrance. By modifying an existing male chracter instead of being original or using an existing female character, they're ensuring that female Thor will be in the shadow of the Real Thor, the 'male Thor' for perpetuity. Bad idea.

Simply put, don't piss off the internets. I'd say feminism/the like is the most hotly contested topics these days. Anyone that does a move that is blatantly discriminatory or overly politically-correct will be born into the thunderous fury of craziness that leads to an insane combination of hatred, approval, boycotts, and endorsement by different groups that are tearing at each others throats. It's really best to tailor what you do to avoid this mess. The smart ones manage to skirt the controversy while contributing and changing common perceptions; the dumb ones get drawn into the hurricane of madness. It's obvious Marvel is dumb.

More female heroes? Sure, let's. Just not like this. Marvel could have done many things to add more females to make it less of a sausagefest. How about creating an original series with a new female hero? Or take an obscure character, flesh them out, and put them into the limelight? Wait, I have an even better idea: let's take one of the characters that are typically portrayed in an overly-sexualized way and totally change everyones expectations on them by portraying them differently, in a more mature way?

Nah, why don't we crap on an already-established hero and change his role, screwing with the status quo for no reason.

Yeah I'd have actually bought a comic book that wasn't about the Ultimate Warrior or Mr.T if it had a female character that wasn't a sex object and that I'd not be embarrassed to read around my friends (men or women).

But it's not actually about diversity...it's about selling stuff, more than ever before. Neither creating Stupendowoman nor revamping Squirrel Girl will sell stuff the way that a switcheroo with an established iconic character can. It's brand recognition, like with any other product.

I have to admit that I expected this to be met much more by yawns than with nerdrage. Taken at face value, what's the more interesting story -- Thor as is to infinity, or Thor going through a fall before finding redemption?

The issues I have are 1) that it's all been done before -- even with the same characters we're talking about, and 2) that stunts and crossover events that ultimately get undone anyway have become the norm and crutches at the big two rather than consistent, solid storytelling across all books. Yay, quarterly earnings targets.

Although I'm still buying some DC books. I haven't been buying any Marvel books regularly for the first time in forever.

 gorgon wrote:

Although I'm still buying some DC books. I haven't been buying any Marvel books regularly for the first time in forever.

I've never bought DC stuff (except as gifts for others), but I HAVE recently bought Marvel comic books... Though to be fair, most of them have been Deadpool books, and no matter the change that Marvel makes to DP, I think as long as the writers get him/her "right" they don't care... We Deadpool fans are fairly easy to keep happy: violate the rules of comic books (the 4th wall, etc), be funny, and kill lots and lots of badguys

 gorgon wrote:

I have to admit that I expected this to be met much more by yawns than with nerdrage. Taken at face value, what's the more interesting story -- Thor as is to infinity, or Thor going through a fall before finding redemption?

I ordinarily would yawn, but its been a while since I raged last, and didn't have much in the way of worthy causes to rage over.

Although I'm still buying some DC books. I haven't been buying any Marvel books regularly for the first time in forever.

Try supporting the 'independent' publishers, Dark Horse, Valiant, etc. have all been pushing their own superhero books, I've been enjoying them rather thoroughly, thus far devoid of the stupidity of Marvel/DC publications and their parallel/off-shoot universes and lack of perma-death, but then again the series are all in their infancy.

Thor is whoever picks up the hammer (or whoever the hammer deems worthy) and then has all the power of Thor.

Spiderman is whoever has the costume and shoots spider webs.

Batman is whoever has the cape and is crazy enough to fight super villains because he doesn't realize he has throat cancer instead of super powers.

It's super hero comics. The character is whoever wears the clothes and has the powers, nothing less and nothing more.

Only Superman can be Superman...

 d-usa wrote:
Thor is whoever picks up the hammer (or whoever the hammer deems worthy) and then has all the power of Thor.

Spiderman is whoever has the costume and shoots spider webs.

Batman is whoever has the cape and is crazy enough to fight super villains because he doesn't realize he has throat cancer instead of super powers.

It's super hero comics. The character is whoever wears the clothes and has the powers, nothing less and nothing more.

Thor is *literally* the Norse God of Thunder of Norse myth. Whether or not he is in fact a divine being or just an ultra-powerful alien I think is left ambiguous, but regardless of that, Thor is more than a hammer and costume.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Thor is *literally* the Norse God of Thunder of Norse myth.

Which of course has feth all to do with the comic book version; the real world mythological figure and the comic alien based on that myth are vastly different creatures.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Thor is *literally* the Norse God of Thunder of Norse myth. Whether or not he is in fact a divine being or just an ultra-powerful alien I think is left ambiguous, but regardless of that, Thor is more than a hammer and costume.

Thor the person is the guy we all know.

Thor the Superhero is whoever has the superpowers, wears the costume, and wields the hammer from which the power flows.

Most of the time, the same person is both versions of Thor.

But sometimes Thor is just a guy send to earth with no special powers at all, and sometimes Thor is somebody that has nothing to do with Norse myth who has all the powers of Thor and is for all practical purposes "Thor the Superhero".

Stop interjecting your facts into my outrage!

So Thor, the God of Thunder, is always the same guy. But Thor, the super hero, can be a different person is what I'm getting.

Ok, sure. Thats ok. I still oppose the idea that just having the powers of Thor makes you Thor. It makes you someone with his powers.


In order to be Thor, you have to be the person of Thor. Not just "be worthy".

Thor didn't stop being Thor when he lost his power.

 Grey Templar wrote:
In order to be Thor, you have to be the person of Thor. Not just "be worthy".

Your first sentence is how it works, and is the opposite of this; unless you're merely opining how you'd like it to be, rather than how it is.

I think the previous example of Iron Man was maybe the best one. There have been other Iron Mans* (Iron Men?), just as there have been other, canonical, Thors separate from Thor, son of Odin.


*For non-comic readers, Tony Stark had a real substance abuse problem** in the comics, and temporarily had Rhodey fill in for him.

**he was addicted to Jenkem.

Putting on the Batsuit and fighting the Joker doesn't make you Batman. It makes you someone in a Batsuit fighting the Joker.

Only Bruce Wayne can be Batman.


The same with Thor. To be Thor, you need to be Thor. Not just have his hammer.

Maybe you can claim to be Thor because you have the Hammer, but you still aren't the Thor. You're just a guy with his powers.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Maybe you can claim to be Thor because you have the Hammer, but you still aren't the Thor. You're just a guy with his powers.

Yeah, that's not how it works in the Marvel universe. The holder of Mjolnir confers upon the wielder the office of Thor; full stop, the end.



There's a gif I never expected to make.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Putting on the Batsuit and fighting the Joker doesn't make you Batman. It makes you someone in a Batsuit fighting the Joker.

Only Bruce Wayne can be Batman.

I think you would enjoy "Battle for the Cowl"...

The same with Thor. To be Thor, you need to be Thor. Not just have his hammer.

Maybe you can claim to be Thor because you have the Hammer, but you still aren't the Thor. You're just a guy with his powers.

Which is why in the comics you have this inscription on Mjolnir:

Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor.

not

Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall become Thor.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Putting on the Batsuit and fighting the Joker doesn't make you Batman. It makes you someone in a Batsuit fighting the Joker.

No. It makes you Batman.

Part of the problem with Thor is that it is an unconventional naming scheme for how they actually handle the character: both versions share the same name.

Bruce Wayne is the rich guy with an interesting hobby. Batman is the crime fighting bat with throat cancer. Most of the time it's the same character. But sometimes Batman is somebody else.
Damian Wayne is some kid hanging out with Bruce Wayne. Robin is Batman's partner. Most of the time they are both the same character. But sometimes Robin is somebody else.
Tony Stark is another rich guy with an interesting hobby. Iron Man is the guy with the suit. Most of the time it's the same character. But sometimes Iron Man is somebody else.
Alan Scott is a guy with a ring. The Green Lantern is a super hero. Sometimes they are both the same character. But often the Green Lantern is somebody else.

Thor(Person) is the Prince of Asgard (I think per the comics his only natural abilities are strength, speed, durability, and long age). Thor(Superhero) is the guy with the powers granted to him by Mjolnir (flight, manipulate the weather, lightning, dimensional transportation). The tough guy is Thor(P), the superhero powers of Thor(S) come from the hammer, he does not naturally have them. Most of the time Thor(P) and Thor(S) is the same person. But at times, they are not.

I think it's a fair argument that Bruce Wayne is actually the alter-ego of Batman.

 Ouze wrote:
I think it's a fair argument that Bruce Wayne is actually the alter-ego of Batman.

That's just nitpicking .

But Dick Grayson has been Batman. The (not sure how canon shows are) kid in the future has been Batman. Not sure if there are any others, but "Not-Bruce" has been Batman in the past.

Azrael was Batman for a while, right? I didn't follow that storyline.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:


And Gwen Stacy is currently dead in the "real" Marvel timeline

You can thank Abby-L for that being true again.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Which is why in the comics you have this inscription on Mjolnir:

Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor.

not

Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall become Thor.

I take back what I said about the Iron Man analogy, this is actually the best expanation.

 Ouze wrote:
Azrael was Batman for a while, right? I didn't follow that storyline.

Jean-Paul Valley was Batman for awhile in "Knightfall". It did not go so well...
Dick Grayson became Batman after the conclusion of "Battle for the Cowl", Jason Todd tried to usurp the mantle during said "Battle for the Cowl" and for a few nights Tim Drake was Batman...

 d-usa wrote:

But Dick Grayson has been Batman. The (not sure how canon shows are) kid in the future has been Batman. Not sure if there are any others, but "Not-Bruce" has been Batman in the past.

Terry McGinnis is now comic canon, too.

It seems presumptuous to assume the worst bethor we see what the writers have done with Thor. What if we end up with a Deadpool Corps situation?

Can you imagine a world where a team of Thors arrive on a flying Viking Longship, leaping out with a lady, a boy, a sentient Mjolnir( affectionately nicknamed 'Hammerhead'), and a mascot- perhaps an enormously fat cat that can weigh as much as the world?

Thor Corps, drop the hammers!