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chaos0xomega wrote:

 d-usa wrote:


Thor(Person) is the Prince of Asgard (I think per the comics his only natural abilities are strength, speed, durability, and long age). Thor(Superhero) is the guy with the powers granted to him by Mjolnir (flight, manipulate the weather, lightning, dimensional transportation). The tough guy is Thor(P), the superhero powers of Thor(S) come from the hammer, he does not naturally have them. Most of the time Thor(P) and Thor(S) is the same person. But at times, they are not.

Incorrect. Thor's powers come from being Thor. The whole Mjolnir imbues the powers of Thor upon its wielder thing is a recent development. In-universe, Odin punished Thor for being a prick by separating his powers from his body and imbuing them within the hammer.

 Ouze wrote:
I think it's a fair argument that Bruce Wayne is actually the alter-ego of Batman.

Agreed, its a topic thats been covered in the comics as well.

So what you meant to say is "Incorrect. Thor's powers used to come from being Thor." I mean, you say that he's wrong, and here's why, and then within a sentence go "well, that's what used to be the case anyway". I know you don't want it to be the case, but as you wrote yourself; Thor's powers are now imbued by the hammer, not by virtue of being Thor.

 Thunderfrog wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Dunno if it's in another thread or not... But, aparently Captain America is getting a "new look" as well.

According to a Marvel feed on my FB page, the mantle of Cap is being taken over by an already familiar Marvel face: The Falcon.


So, now we have Thor is a woman, and Captain America is black... Is Iron Man gonna be replaced with a Mexican next??

How dare a company make an effort to appeal to a new fan base and minority culture. There's only 2934 white super-heroes left.

Or are minority heroes limited to Black Panther, Chinese Ninja Guy, and the Mexican Jumping Bean?

As previously mentioned (in relation to She-Thor), the problem is:
1) It tells the majority that "This is a 0-sum game. You lose.
2) By making a character "Minority-X", they rather limit the character so their defining trait is being "Fem-Thor" or "Black Captain" instead of making them their own character.

As far as Falcon being the new Cap, that's fine. Other people have been Cap before. Steve'll get his super-soldier serum back and everything will go back to the way it was eventually. I mean, I like Falcon as Falcon, but there's no reason he can't be Cap for a while.

Relapse wrote:

 Thunderfrog wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Dunno if it's in another thread or not... But, aparently Captain America is getting a "new look" as well.

According to a Marvel feed on my FB page, the mantle of Cap is being taken over by an already familiar Marvel face: The Falcon.


So, now we have Thor is a woman, and Captain America is black... Is Iron Man gonna be replaced with a Mexican next??

How dare a company make an effort to appeal to a new fan base and minority culture. There's only 2934 white super-heroes left.

Or are minority heroes limited to Black Panther, Chinese Ninja Guy, and the Mexican Jumping Bean?

Mexican Jumping Bean?

Is that a racial slur?

Haha, yes, but only in a sarcastic way. The post I was replying to seemed to have a problem with conventional white superheroes having minority alter ego's. If you look at past super-heroes of obvious ethnic origin, they follow a very stereotyped and super-racially defined theme.

Even Falcon, the new Cap, couldn't be a superhero for ANY good reason. He HAD to be a pimp-thug who was BRAINWASHED into being a good guy by Red Skull and given powers in a long drawn out scheme to take out Captain America.

Storm being the main exception. I always thought she was done very well by Marvel as she had non-stereotyped flavor, kickass powers, and was intelligent and even led the X-men for a stint.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
As previously mentioned (in relation to She-Thor), the problem is:
1) It tells the majority that "This is a 0-sum game. You lose.
2) By making a character "Minority-X", they rather limit the character so their defining trait is being "Fem-Thor" or "Black Captain" instead of making them their own character.

Exactly.

When they made Ms. Marvel this new Pakistani-American girl, they didn't do it to replace the old one. The original Ms. Marvel (Carol Danvers) is out there as Captain Marvel, taking up the name of the person who inspired her (the original Captain Marvel). This new Ms. Marvel chose the name because Danvers inspired her. It's creating a new character in a believable way, and that she just happens to be Muslim is a side issue (not that Marvel won't stop reminding you ever second page, but whatever).

The She-Thor thing is different.

 Thunderfrog wrote:


Even Falcon, the new Cap, couldn't be a superhero for ANY good reason. He HAD to be a pimp-thug who was BRAINWASHED into being a good guy by Red Skull and given powers in a long drawn out scheme to take out Captain America.

Storm being the main exception. I always thought she was done very well by Marvel as she had non-stereotyped flavor, kickass powers, and was intelligent and even led the X-men for a stint.

What about Black Panther? A warrior-king who's very dangerous. Deathlok, all kinds of awesome? James Rhodes? Stark's best buddy and an up-gunned Iron Man. Those are all decent characters in their own right.

Interesting conversation I had with my cousin, who has written the following books.. (This is reference to this being an attack on Asatru.)

Love and Hate in Asatru, Loki: Bound Between Fire and Ice, Divine Feminine in Asatru: Achieving Spiritual Balance in Asatru, Asatru Book of Days, Love and Hate in Asatru: A perspective of Asatru in our lives.

Me:

"Hey cousin, I have a question. Marvel has recently announced a story-line for the Thor comic in which Thor loses his powers and a woman takes over the "mantle" of Thor, including his powers and his portfolio of responsibilities. Do you find this as an affront or insult to Astaru?"

Bryan: "It's a comic. The purpose is to sell more of them. As a Disney shareholder I'm all for making money. It creates the same kind of demand as killing a character off without the hard feelings. From an Asatru perspective it gets people to looking. And anything that causes people to take a closer look at the indigenous polytheistic faith of their ancestors is far more important that the butthurt flowing thru some asatruars. But some of them have a point they wouldn't dare do it to Jesus or Mohammed. But by the same token we have failed to promote Asatru as a viable option that provides positive purpose guidance and direction. Whose fault is it?"

Me: "That's a fair point. Further, I don't think the comic industry would have the beans to make Jesus a super-hero in the first place, or Muhammahed for that matter."

Bryan: "However one wishes to view the matter those old gods are still here all around us. From our popular culture espousing heroism and right and wrong to our holidays and even the days of the week. I choose to think there is something worthy of consideration there. Much more so than believe or die."

Interesting stuff.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
So it's cool if the dominant Christian culture continues it's campaign of oppression against us? I suppose we should be happy they aren't burning us out of our homes any more.

Cool? Nah. But that's the way Tumblr slacktivism works, I'm afraid.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
Bryan: It's a comic.

Nice to know your cousin isn't insane.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
Interesting conversation I had with my cousin, who has written the following books.. (This is reference to this being an attack on Asatru.)

Love and Hate in Asatru, Loki: Bound Between Fire and Ice, Divine Feminine in Asatru: Achieving Spiritual Balance in Asatru, Asatru Book of Days, Love and Hate in Asatru: A perspective of Asatru in our lives.

Me:

"Hey cousin, I have a question. Marvel has recently announced a story-line for the Thor comic in which Thor loses his powers and a woman takes over the "mantle" of Thor, including his powers and his portfolio of responsibilities. Do you find this as an affront or insult to Astaru?"

Bryan: "It's a comic. The purpose is to sell more of them. As a Disney shareholder I'm all for making money. It creates the same kind of demand as killing a character off without the hard feelings. From an Asatru perspective it gets people to looking. And anything that causes people to take a closer look at the indigenous polytheistic faith of their ancestors is far more important that the butthurt flowing thru some asatruars. But some of them have a point they wouldn't dare do it to Jesus or Mohammed. But by the same token we have failed to promote Asatru as a viable option that provides positive purpose guidance and direction. Whose fault is it?"

Me: "That's a fair point. Further, I don't think the comic industry would have the beans to make Jesus a super-hero in the first place, or Muhammahed for that matter."

Bryan: "However one wishes to view the matter those old gods are still here all around us. From our popular culture espousing heroism and right and wrong to our holidays and even the days of the week. I choose to think there is something worthy of consideration there. Much more so than believe or die."

Interesting stuff.

A Muhammad comic book would be the first comic I'll ever buy.

Doubly so if they turn him into a woman, too.

I bet I'll be waiting a while for that one.

I highly respect your brother. Our kin, mostly, shares the same perspective as this simply being an image being used and not the actual Aesir himself.

On the other hand, they do use Jesus, for example, e.g. the countless Christian merchandise and think of "The Passion of the Christ" that caused an uproar among Christians as well.

Our view is: why would you be upset about such a decision? They did not use the image of Thor to purposefully disdain Asatru, they used it because it still is a very powerful image that sells well and the image of a strong thunder god simply appeals to a lot of viewers. Why would I, as an Asatru, be offended then? I know that the actual Thor is completely different from the Thor portrayed in the Disney movies. And after all, the image that's portrayed still is the image of a strong, anthropogenic god which isn't too bad, is it?

I know a lot of Asatru who are upset about it, but we aren't worried in the slightiest. The bigger problem are German nazis still using our imagery for their very own purposes and the endless struggles we have with those groups. We got so many lawsuits going on against them and it's going so slow. But then again: perseverance is a high virtue

Christ / Mohammed are less safe for mainstream media because there would be a huge uproar. Asatru are too wide-spread to cause such an uproar. But then again - why bother? If someone wants to believe that Heimdall is black and Bifrost is a subway station, then so be it. If someone wants to know more about it, every Asatru will be glad to help him understand what this is actually about.

@Thunderfrog: Nothing too shocking there, to be honest. People are capable of distinguishing between a change in a comic book and a real-world faith, which is something I would hope most are able to do.

My issue with the Thor change is the following:

1) The 'Thor loses powers, so other guy/girl/alien' gets them has been done before. It's unoriginal

2) All of those people got Thor's power, but fundamentally not Thor. Masterson was Thunderstrike, his son (I think) was Thunderstrike II, Beta-Ray Bill was Beta-Ray Bill. Thor is the guy's name, not his title or role.

3) There are plenty of other characters that could be 'promoted' that would be of more long-term worth than Thoretta (who will inevitably vanish after her arc is done). Valkyrie or Sif would ultimately be more sustainable in that role.

4) It's a pointless gesture (if it is indeed a gesture). Looking at the Avengers NOW lineup, I'm not sure how they can claim this represents less of a gender bias in comics when the woman next to Thor still has a ridiculously impractical and objectifying costume.

I also note that, to my knowledge, Marvel have not said it is an attempt to reduce gender bias, but some people have seized on the idea as justification for lazy writing when clearly it's not.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can anyone identify metal-face, flamey-guy and too-much-red-hair-girl in that pic? The rest I know, and that's some snazzy new armour for Ironman.

Metalface: Deathlok, the cyborg assassin
Flamey Guy is some inhuman I don't know.
Too-much-red-hair-girl is Medusa, Black Bolt's wife and queen of the Inhumans.

I can't help but wonder if this has anything to do with that really pretty girl that cos=plays thor all over the place.



I can see some Marvel exec seeing her and thinking he's suddenly had a great idea for a character. And also, yea, I get real tired of female heroes in ankle-breaker boots-heels.

If that lady plays She-Thor, I'm all in on it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As far as Falcon being the new Cap, that's fine. Other people have been Cap before. Steve'll get his super-soldier serum back and everything will go back to the way it was eventually. I mean, I like Falcon as Falcon, but there's no reason he can't be Cap for a while.

Falcon being Cap makes perfect sense. If Cap got to choose his successor, he would chose Falcon. Bucky has too much baggage with the whole Winter Soldier thing for Cap to hand him the shield. I think FalconCap is a good idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Thunderfrog wrote:


Even Falcon, the new Cap, couldn't be a superhero for ANY good reason. He HAD to be a pimp-thug who was BRAINWASHED into being a good guy by Red Skull and given powers in a long drawn out scheme to take out Captain America.

I'm pretty sure Marvel doesn't use this as Falcon's actual origin anymore. Or if they haven't changed it, I do know they've stopped talking about it.

squidhills wrote:
I think FalconCap is a good idea.

For extra hilarity, I'm just calling him Captain Falcon.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can anyone identify metal-face, flamey-guy and too-much-red-hair-girl in that pic? The rest I know, and that's some snazzy new armour for Ironman.

Metal-Face is Deathlok (getting his own ongoing series), Flamey guy is Dante (aka 'Inferno') an Inhuman who underwent terrigenesis in the aftermath of Infinity, and too much red hair girl is Medusa, queen of the Inhumans.

Thanks for the info. I know Black Bolt, and I understand what Terrigenesis and the Terrigen Mists are, but I'm not familiar with the rest of the group.

squidhills wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As far as Falcon being the new Cap, that's fine. Other people have been Cap before. Steve'll get his super-soldier serum back and everything will go back to the way it was eventually. I mean, I like Falcon as Falcon, but there's no reason he can't be Cap for a while.

Falcon being Cap makes perfect sense. If Cap got to choose his successor, he would chose Falcon. Bucky has too much baggage with the whole Winter Soldier thing for Cap to hand him the shield. I think FalconCap is a good idea.

My only issue with FalCap, as someone who doesn't currently read the comics, is that I can almost see Falcon turning the job down. From what I read of him (in the Civil War sort of era) Falcon had so much respect for Cap that he would be seriously annoyed if anyone other than Steve wore the suit, so it seems almost unlikely that he'd do it, as it would, to him, almost be disrespectful to Cap. However, with Cap still alive rather than dead, I suppose that changes things.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Thanks for the info. I know Black Bolt, and I understand what Terrigenesis and the Terrigen Mists are, but I'm not familiar with the rest of the group.

Do you mean the Inhumans in general? basically imagine the x-men, but rather than their abilities activating at puberty they activate upon Terrigenesis. They're the result of kree meddling in the DNA of humans, and they live in their own little kingdom called Attilan. It used to be on the moon, then it moved so it was floating above New York, and then during Infinity Black Bolt destroyed it to try and take out Thanos (after evacuating everyone), so now it's floating in the Hudson River. There are also a few scattered tribes spread across the planet, though due to the destruction of Attilan (with a terrigen bomb) the entirety of the earth is undergoing terrigenesis, so new Inhuman are popping up all over the place (such as Inferno).
Also I think that technically the new Ms. Marvel is an inhuman?

 Thunderfrog wrote:

Funny thing. I'm not only incredibly white and nerdy, but hail from Whitebread Oklahoma. I have no race card to put away. I DO get annoyed when the "White Male" complains about losing his stranglehold on things. I took Ensis and his post in jest. Your quickness to accuse me of holding a race card shows us all a glimpse of how you feel about racial equality in comic book media.

As you should've taken my post in jest (on the flip side, it's hard to take me seriously when I've got Deadpool giving the thumbs up sign right next to everything I say... it lends a certain air of sarcasm no matter what )



As to the guys who've said ITT that they follow Asatru, mind if I PM ya for some info??


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also... for a "Jesus" comic book character, they should give him the "Cyclops laser" but from holes in his hands

 Goliath wrote:


So what you meant to say is "Incorrect. Thor's powers used to come from being Thor." I mean, you say that he's wrong, and here's why, and then within a sentence go "well, that's what used to be the case anyway". I know you don't want it to be the case, but as you wrote yourself; Thor's powers are now imbued by the hammer, not by virtue of being Thor.

Except you miss the key point, that Thor is still Thor regardless of whether or not he wields Mjolnir and/or has his powers. Wielding Mjolnir does not make you Thor, it makes you the wielder of Thors power... but you're still not Thor, because Thor is Thor. The fact that Thor's powers no longer naturally come from him (which they did originally) is irrelevant, because Thor isn't his alias or superhero name or whatever it is you want to call it, nor are his powers a part of his alter ego, its all a part of Thor being Thor, even if he can only continue to wield those powers while wielding Mjolnir.

In other words, as stated prior, he who holds Mjolnir wields the power of Thor, not he who holds Mjolnir is Thor.

The crux of your argument is that Thor is both his name and his superhero title, and the superhero title happens to be a function of him using Mjolnir, and thus whoever is using Mjolnir is Thor. I just explained to you why that isn't the case (because up until recently Thor was Thor regardless of Mjolnir, meaning the identity of Thor isn't a function of his hammer and/or powers, but rather a function of his being him).

Exactly.

When they made Ms. Marvel this new Pakistani-American girl, they didn't do it to replace the old one. The original Ms. Marvel (Carol Danvers) is out there as Captain Marvel, taking up the name of the person who inspired her (the original Captain Marvel). This new Ms. Marvel chose the name because Danvers inspired her. It's creating a new character in a believable way, and that she just happens to be Muslim is a side issue (not that Marvel won't stop reminding you ever second page, but whatever).

The She-Thor thing is different.

Well said and agreed.

2) All of those people got Thor's power, but fundamentally not Thor. Masterson was Thunderstrike, his son (I think) was Thunderstrike II, Beta-Ray Bill was Beta-Ray Bill. Thor is the guy's name, not his title or role.

Exactly.

Oh, I agree that it's a bit of a dick move to call yourself Thor, but there is some justification for it. From what I can tell, in-universe they're not going to be too happy that she's calling herself Thor either.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As far as Falcon being the new Cap, that's fine. Other people have been Cap before. Steve'll get his super-soldier serum back and everything will go back to the way it was eventually. I mean, I like Falcon as Falcon, but there's no reason he can't be Cap for a while.

You kind of have to wonder at that conversation...

SR: Falcon, would you like to be Captain America for a while?"

F: "What? I'm already a superhero. I'm Falcon. I've got a name. And fans."

SR: "Er... yeah. But you could be Captain America."

F: "... So, that's a promotion to you? You think I'd just dump my own name and identity at the chance to 'elevate' myself to Captain America. So, all this time we've been friends, you always thought of me as what? Second-rate? Third tier? Sidekick? Chopped dog meat?"

SR: "I'm just saying. Captain America! Think about it. There's a uniform and a code of conduct and..."

F: "You know what? F--- you."

SR: "Oh yeah, and tons of groupies."

F: "..."

SR: (smiles)

F: "Fine. But I want a new uniform. One that fits me this time."

I can't help but wonder since thor gets a considerable portion of his powers from a girdle and girdles were traditionally worn by females if female thor will be stronger (and better fit by her girdle too)!

I also can't help but wonder if this an excuse to have shethor and sif get into some lesbionic light petting. I'm thinking the 2nd option is far more likely

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

You kind of have to wonder at that conversation...

SR: Falcon, would you like to be Captain America for a while?"

F: "What? I'm already a superhero. I'm Falcon. I've got a name. And fans."

SR: "Er... yeah. But you could be Captain America."

F: "... So, that's a promotion to you? You think I'd just dump my own name and identity at the chance to 'elevate' myself to Captain America. So, all this time we've been friends, you always thought of me as what? Second-rate? Third tier? Sidekick? Chopped dog meat?"

SR: "I'm just saying. Captain America! Think about it. There's a uniform and a code of conduct and..."

F: "You know what? F--- you."

This was the high point of the thread, I think.

 Ouze wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

You kind of have to wonder at that conversation...

SR: Falcon, would you like to be Captain America for a while?"

F: "What? I'm already a superhero. I'm Falcon. I've got a name. And fans."

SR: "Er... yeah. But you could be Captain America."

F: "... So, that's a promotion to you? You think I'd just dump my own name and identity at the chance to 'elevate' myself to Captain America. So, all this time we've been friends, you always thought of me as what? Second-rate? Third tier? Sidekick? Chopped dog meat?"

SR: "I'm just saying. Captain America! Think about it. There's a uniform and a code of conduct and..."

F: "You know what? F--- you."

This was the high point of the thread, I think.

Indeed. Have an Exalt, Bob!

Reminds me of a brilliant bit of Civil War:

News Reporter: Despite his fugitive nature, Captain America stepped in to halt the robbery...
Falcon: AND The Falcon! Jesus, I have sidekick syndrome as it is!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As far as Falcon being the new Cap, that's fine. Other people have been Cap before. Steve'll get his super-soldier serum back and everything will go back to the way it was eventually. I mean, I like Falcon as Falcon, but there's no reason he can't be Cap for a while.

Guess this guy won't get the role ?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As far as Falcon being the new Cap, that's fine. Other people have been Cap before. Steve'll get his super-soldier serum back and everything will go back to the way it was eventually. I mean, I like Falcon as Falcon, but there's no reason he can't be Cap for a while.

You kind of have to wonder at that conversation...

SR: Falcon, would you like to be Captain America for a while?"

F: "What? I'm already a superhero. I'm Falcon. I've got a name. And fans."

SR: "Er... yeah. But you could be Captain America."

F: "... So, that's a promotion to you? You think I'd just dump my own name and identity at the chance to 'elevate' myself to Captain America. So, all this time we've been friends, you always thought of me as what? Second-rate? Third tier? Sidekick? Chopped dog meat?"

SR: "I'm just saying. Captain America! Think about it. There's a uniform and a code of conduct and..."

F: "You know what? F--- you."

SR: "Oh yeah, and tons of groupies."

F: "..."

SR: (smiles)

F: "Fine. But I want a new uniform. One that fits me this time."

Since they're both military (at least as of CA: Winter Soldier) there's gotta be a bit of this:

F: You're only offering me this because it's February, aren't you?

SR: .......*drops head* "yeah.... But hey!!! If you don't like it, it could always be a temporary assignment!"