In some BL content you will find that the Space Marines are ultra heroic, noble and totally evil-killing Mary Sue badasses. On the other hand, the CSM are totally evil and despicable, and serve as cannon fodder to the heroic loyalists.

If you've read the SM & CSM 6th ed codices, you'll know what I mean. Reading through the SM codex, I found myself getting bored of the praise being heaped upon the SMs.

I'm thinking of writing a fanfic from the CSM point of view, in which the CSMs are portrayed as the good guys, and the negative aspects of the Imperium are especially highlighted.

Do you think it's a good or bad idea? Or is it too heretical to see the light of day?

I wouldn't read it but thats because it violates my fanfiction.

Honestly as long as it makes sense and you don't go over the top chances are it'll sound good.

Well, from what I heard, just because a marine turned traitor doesn't mean it immediately supports chaos either. Wasn't that the soul drinkers' schtick? Also, if I'm remembering this right, the Alpha Legion (during the heresy anyway) wanted to eliminate the IoM to aid other xenos, not to support chaos.

The Night Lords books- very occasionally, some of the characters can be classed as "Nice". Briefly lol.

The thing is that the perception of the some or many Chaos Space Marines is that they are in the right and the rest of the Empire is wrong especially those from the 8 traitor legions, so even though Chaos Space Marines literally burn entire worlds they consider it justice not malice for the wrongs they have suffered at the hands of the false Emperor and his lackeys. Or that they are in fact liberating many of the worlds from the evil emperor and bringing the populace to worship the true gods of Chaos.

Welcome to 40k, there are no good guys. The space marines can be bungholes but that generally is downplayed as they are now supposed to be the good guys. Everyone is right from their standpoint and whoever wins in 40k everyone loses; warp envelopes the galaxy, nids eat everyone and everything, everyone is now a: weeabü space commie, necron slave, dark eldar torture victim, or dead.

Chaos generally are the bad guys because its easiest to make the crazed spikey gits who sacrifice people evil, and easier to make things like a commissar in comparison.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That and kharn is a pretty swell guy.

You have to remember is that the thing with the 'ol SM Vs. CSM is that its really Religious Fascism Vs. Satanism.

Both are evil yet in some cases both can be seen as the good guys depending on the situation..

Such examples come from as you have said with the GW fiction with SM being the holy good of mankind purging the "unclean" with bolter and flame.

Other stories that show Chaos in a good light could be from the HH novels with examples such as Lorgar and the Emperors relationship and Angron, in which cases Chaos could be seen as the good guys for actually caring about said Primarch's..

Or if your more into recent 40k fluff think of the Imperium's more... Neglectful side where there are some systems that are neglected by the Imperium leading to some controversial (Because 40k =/= Grim Dark and check the, of Fire and Ice book series for inspiration, for any controversial themes of hierarchy) unchecked hierarchy from the ruling class and a revolt spreads. Since the Imperium has done nothing about it the rioters denounce the imperium and Chaos comes to the rioters side cleansing the hierarchy and then asking for some "simple" worship. By the time the Inquisition comes its too late for the system may have been dammed by that point and gets sucked into the Warp..

Also have a look at what Inquisitors have done, maybe there are corrupt power grabbing puritan inquisitors, believing that they have the right to end countless innocent lives to Exterminatus..

Just a few ideas to get the ball going for you

Even though I am GK player and like the pompous heroics of purging Chaos from the galaxy, doesn't mean I can't sympathize with traitor/Chaos Legions.

Think that in the 41st, it is less grey than it used to be than back in the 30th but I still think it is there. There are evil, messed up things about the IoM, the same goes with the Chaos though. There are also things to cheer about with both sides depending on perspective. 40k was never about wars of good and evil because even our world isn't as black and white as that but a war of ideals, people fighting for what they believe in. In any IoM novel/fluff, they are always going to characterize the forces of Chaos in an evil light but I believe Chaos centered novels do the same thing for the IoM.

Look at the HH novels. I completely understand why Primarchs like Magnus and Perturabo sided with Horus and think they were correct in doing so. I relate to them and see them for the characters they are. The same can be said for any of them and highlights the conflict between the two sides well.

That being said, I ultimately side with people like Rogal Dorn because he reflects my own ideals and opinions. I don't ever think of any of the Primarchs as strictly evil...except maybe Fulgrim...anyway even in Mortarion's Heart , I can find a sympathy with Mortarion even as he stands as a major oppponent to the Grey Knights. That is just great characterization.

I think GW did well in presenting this even thought they get a little Imperium happy every once in a while.

Ahahahahah-no.

Chaos Space Marines are pretty much the only faction that can be outright called evil.

I think that Henry Zao's books, the ones with the Blood Gorgon CSMs, do a decent jib of portraying CSMs that could be considered "good". He writes the Blood Gorgons as being quite honourable, and looking after those who they consider their allies.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Do you think it's a good or bad idea?

I certainly think that it's possible, and can be written well. By all means, go ahead.

...However, my main concern with the idea of "good" CSMs, just from a fluff standpoint, is that they're still working for or are being influenced by the Chaos gods, who are very much not good. I'd say that any CSMs with good intentions would eventually lose them or have them perverted, due to the influence of Chaos.

 SkavenLord wrote:
Well, from what I heard, just because a marine turned traitor doesn't mean it immediately supports chaos either. Wasn't that the soul drinkers' schtick?

Though several of them did fall to Chaos anyway, and they were falling apart despite their attempt to stick to their principles.

Chaos Space Marines were victims. They were kidnapped by a dictator, then subjected to genetic augmentation and brainwashing against their will. In the Horus Heresy, they were fighting for a variety of reasons (mostly taking wealth and power from the Emperor and giving it to themselves) but some were probably fighting for freedom or entirely justified revenge.

10,000 years of bloody warfare and daemonic exposure have taken a bitter toll on them, to be sure. Most didn't even have good intentions to begin with. I'd say "good" Chaos Space Marines are still possible though. By "good" I mean that they avoid hurting people needlessly or aren't terribly ambitious. Maybe they're retired. Even then, "good" Chaos Space Marines probably wouldn't be what we consider nice people.

 Melissia wrote:
Ahahahahah-no.

Chaos Space Marines are pretty much the only faction that can be outright called evil.

Sure, it can be done. The Imperium is basically a group of religious, witchburning, Nazis and loyalists marines can be as guilty of this as any other Imperial faction, so the easiest part of the story will be making the IoM into the bad guys.

As for making CSM's the "good guys," that needs to be handled a little more delicately if you want readers to accept it. They'll almost certainly be antiheroes of one kind or another. I've had a couple ideas along these lines, with a Khornate champion who fits into the "honorable warrior" mold more than the "psychotic killer" one. Another one as an Emperor's Children lord who, well he was pretty monstrous, but he DID help save a planet from being purged by the IoM.
Here's some tropes that might be usefull when writing "heroic" CSM's:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/AntiHero?from=Main.SlidingScaleOfAntiHeroes
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ValuesDissonance
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ALighterShadeofBlack

Remember, in 40k, it's often less a matter of who's "good" as who's less evil.

burn the heretic

 fallinq wrote:
Sure, it can be done. The Imperium is basically a group of religious, witchburning, Nazis and loyalists marines can be as guilty of this as any other Imperial faction, so the easiest part of the story will be making the IoM into the bad guys.

That sounds like something Aspiring Chaos Champion would say!

Yeah Henry Zou did a good job of portraying the Blood Gorgons as being good, they go to help a world which they've sworn to protect.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 fallinq wrote:
Sure, it can be done. The Imperium is basically a group of religious, witchburning, Nazis and loyalists marines can be as guilty of this as any other Imperial faction, so the easiest part of the story will be making the IoM into the bad guys.

That sounds like something Aspiring Chaos Champion would say!

Well my current ranking is "Cackling Chaos Conscript." One day though. One day.

And Melissia, I think anyone whose had dealings with the Dark Eldar would disagree with you about that. Also, anyone whose been on the receiving end of an Imperium purge due to something they had absolutely no control over (non-Chaotic mutation, being a non-human race, the "crime" of being attacked by certain xenos or Chaos forces and thus "contaminated", a paranoid Inquisitor exterminatusing them just because, etc, etc). There may be good people in the IoM, but the system is rotten to the core.

 fallinq wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 fallinq wrote:
Sure, it can be done. The Imperium is basically a group of religious, witchburning, Nazis and loyalists marines can be as guilty of this as any other Imperial faction, so the easiest part of the story will be making the IoM into the bad guys.

That sounds like something Aspiring Chaos Champion would say!

Well my current ranking is "Cackling Chaos Conscript." One day though. One day.

And Melissia, I think anyone whose had dealings with the Dark Eldar would disagree with you about that. Also, anyone whose been on the receiving end of an Imperium purge due to something they had absolutely no control over (non-Chaotic mutation, being a non-human race, the "crime" of being attacked by certain xenos or Chaos forces and thus "contaminated", a paranoid Inquisitor exterminatusing them just because, etc, etc). There may be good people in the IoM, but the system is rotten to the core.

Even Dark Eldar can be argued that they're just doing what they can to survive. Chaos MArines don't really even have that much going for them. CSMs meanwhile worship the Chaos Gods because they want power. And CSMs do evil gak for the Chaos Gods because, again, they want more power.

You can have a good or sympathetic traitor Space Marine.

However, once they make the transition to "Chaos" Space Marine, they more or less lose any sympathetic qualities.

The reason being that worshiping Chaos actively leads an individual to mustache-twirling levels of evil.

 Melissia wrote:
Even Dark Eldar can be argued that they're just doing what they can to survive. Chaos MArines don't really even have that much going for them. CSMs meanwhile worship the Chaos Gods because they want power. And CSMs do evil gak for the Chaos Gods because, again, they want more power.

I could point out that it can be argued that the Thousand Sons are just doing what they can to survive and have been for ten thousand years. They're Chaos Marines that are a billion times more sympathetic than the Dark Eldar.

The Death Guard joined Chaos to survive. And at that point, once you're in with Chaos that deep you have to commit atrocities to survive as well, lest you be turned into a Chaos Spawn.

Angron very literally had no choice when it came to falling to Chaos; Lorgar turned him into a Daemon Prince during a battle without Angron's permission using a massive Warp ritual. And of course, it was literally the only way to save Angron from a slow death from the Butcher's Nails.

There's a lot of potential for cackling cartoon villains in Chaos, just like the Dark Eldar. But there's far more potential for sympathetic Chaos Marines than sympathetic Dark Eldar (This was once true of the Necrons as well before they became pussy metal men with feelings).

Chaos Marines, maybe. Worshiping the ruiniour powers makes you evil, but evil incarnate it does not make. In a bad universe, with evil everywhere, CSM could be good by comparison.



Renegade Marines certainly. Just because the IoM shuns you does not make you evil, nor does it in any way make you ungood.



Honestly though CSM are the most diverse faction in the game. So many different types. So many motivations, cultures, value systems. They could concieveably be warbands/chapters that are doing anything.

*Commissar Voice* EXTRA HERESY!!! **Blam**

-------------------------------

*Voice of Reason*
"There's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought …"
- A quote from GOT

I see all the "SPACE MARINES GOOD" and "CHAOS MARINES BAD" as brainwashing and Imperial Propaganda. Sure, there are a lot of 'Evil' Chaos Marines that are truly chaotic and chaos god-loving, but out of the countless hundreds of thousands of marines that are supposedly 'Chaotic', there is sure to be a percentage that aren't evil. Hell, even when the Legions supposedly purged every 'Loyalist' marine within their ranks, I'm sure they didn't get all of them. Maybe some of those Loyalists are still among those legions and are subtly sabotaging their interests from within etc. Like real life, it isn't all black and white.

If anyone seems like good guys in 40K fiction, then, IMHO, it is done wrong. However, considering that Imperials are genocidal nazi zealots, it will be perfectly possible to present Chaos in somewhat sympathetic light.

Look into the Soul Drinkers series ... its about a loyalist chapter that goes rogue and fights both the imperium and chaos, the Storm of Iron book is from the perspective of iron warriorsI wouldn't say they are the good guys but its pretty good, and the Horus Heresy series.

They don't really qualify as "Chaos Marines".

Are we including renegade chapters as Chaos Marines?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Are we including renegade chapters as Chaos Marines? Such as The Relictors?

"I'm thinking of writing a fanfic from the CSM point of view, in which the CSMs are portrayed as the good guys, and the negative aspects of the Imperium are especially highlighted."

The Soul Drinker stuff has alot of stuff that could show how easy it is for a chapter to leave the imperium and fall to chaos (since they almost did due to a tzeentch'ian plot) ... and some of the Soul Drinkers do fall to chaos (khorne much?).

The entire reason they go renegade is because of the negative aspects of the Imperium.

Theres a difference between a Renegade and a Chaos Space Marine.

A renegade has gone rouge from the imperium and use whatever means necessary to survive and fight for what every cause they are fighting for.

While the csms are there because.... They choose to be. They weren't really ever forced into it. Lets face it the primarchs were, (with the exception of the Thousand Sons and the Iron Warriors). They choose to be evil and choose to go to the ruinous powers, they were not aware of the consequences but they became that. Chapters like the Red Corsairs, choose to go renegade which lead them to the path of damnation.

The renegades can go from A Knights of Blood to Astral Claws.

IN the world of Warhammer 40k there are no true good guys.

Asherian Command is right, there are no good guys in 40k, and falling to Chaos is a choice. Is is an inherently evil choice though?

This is why I think there should be 3 Space Marine codicies: Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines and Renegade Space Marines because the variety of flavors each comes with. Even if the Renegade codex was a small one like the Inquisitorial and SoB codices, it would go a long way to establish the differences. Honestly, I would also put the Iron Warriors, Night Lords and Alpha Legion in the Renegade codex too.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Theres a difference between a Renegade and a Chaos Space Marine.

A renegade has gone rouge from the imperium and use whatever means necessary to survive and fight for what every cause they are fighting for.

While the csms are there because.... They choose to be. They weren't really ever forced into it. Lets face it the primarchs were, (with the exception of the Thousand Sons and the Iron Warriors). They choose to be evil and choose to go to the ruinous powers, they were not aware of the consequences but they became that. Chapters like the Red Corsairs, choose to go renegade which lead them to the path of damnation.

IN the world of Warhammer 40k there are no true good guys.

The Night Lords didnt choose to be evil, they just had brutal methods. They justified raping a planet to ensure quick surrender from the next 10 planets. Not exactly saints no, but all of the space marine legions were going through the galaxy bringing war to unsuspecting planets. There is no way to do that and be a saint.

Then, Things got out of hand and they knew it. To know they had gone to far they must not have really wanted to be evil.

The Imperium sent an assassin after Kurse, which with his powers of foresight he knew would happen and thus justified to him all his actions. And so he just let the assassin kill him. A primarch, just let it happen, A primarch that can see the future, could have stopped it easily, but he let it happen. He must have felt he somehow deserved it.

Even 10,000 years after the HH, many night lords do not worship chaos.


Add that and you have the Tsons, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords. All the rest, yeah they wanted to be evil, or they wanted to worship a god other than the Emperor, or they were Alpha legion and who knows. But that's 1/3 of the legions.

Have them fight the tau, everbody hates the tau.

At this point though, the 1kSons are so far beyond redemption that they might as well never have been good. They are either mindless automatons or they're remorseless sorcerers selling their soul to demons for scraps of power. Their origins make them deserve pity, but that doesn't mean that they're not evil NOW.

Well, as with everything in life or fiction its a point of view, the eye of the beholder saying. You can argue a few things with chaos being good, but you also have to take a look at the end results of what they do. Most from what I've read (Which is Slaanesh themes) tend to portray social structure with chaos as piratical, enslavement or rule by fear. In some sense it can be considered tribal even. Maybe someone has Stockholm syndrome and reflects seeing chaos marines as heroes. Maybe someone is seduced by the 'art' of Slaanesh and come to admire the work, effort and dedication. The 'hope and change' of Tzeentch, maybe some come to respect the tribal and warrior honor that which is Khorne. Anything is really possible, You just have to justify the point of view.

You also have to capitalize on what makes the Imperium bad in the stance you are writing about, show those sides in a different light so to speak. In away the write is going to be argumentative and sort of like a debate in away. Bit tricky but definitely possible. I mean an easy write in my mind would be something like tribal planet dedicated to Khorne, populus serves them of course very simply while admiring the ways that come from them even if it gets one of them killed for disobeying or being at fault for something. They haven't burned down the town or caused mass genocide not so bad. Imperium moves in, maybe kills half of the Khorne marines begins to kill off the populus and destroy settlements due to chaotic influences. While the remaining Khornites plot a counter offensive to restore their own version of 'order'. Which the general weak and apathetic enslaved people see as saviors due to shaving lives, homes etc.

I think what you'll have trouble with is pulling off the 'good guys' label and slapping it on them, they can't pull a batman(no Night Lord pun honest) best way is to have an outside source be the judgment of what is good or bad which is why you want something that is generally not considered in the war argument which is general populous. But like I said its a point of view of what you think is good or bad. How you justify the means to your end is the only thing you need to do to prove or disprove your read / argument. Good luck with it, I approve of the write find it interesting...

-Sincerely Viridian

Yes if horrible sacrifices is a good thing and unleashing hell on innocents is a good thing among other horrors they inflict. Not to me though.

Unless you are talking about renegades whom are not chaos alligned

ninja_guardsman wrote:
Yes if horrible sacrifices is a good thing and unleashing hell on innocents is a good thing among other horrors they inflict. Not to me though.

Unless you are talking about renegades whom are not chaos alligned

That could be said for the Imperium of man though..

Yes if condemning a planet or a sectors population to be nuked from orbit and unleashing atomising hell upon millions or billions of innocents is a good thing among all the suppressing fascism they inflict upon their Imperium. Not to me though..

Unless you're talking about humanitarian SM such as the Salamanders or the more reasonable humans in the Imperium like Gaunt iirc..

The thing is, its always a point of view, never as one sided as you may think..

Either way, whichever end is chosen. its not pretty..

I would say this is quite doable, considering there is a strong argument for a brighter future under Chaos.

As it stands, life for the average Imperial citizen is one of strife, hard labor, and religious oppression. Of course, daemon worlds and other Chaos worlds are also awful. But both sides have exceptions. So let's say the Astronomicon dies, the Imperium now has no meaningful navy, and CSM + Xenos can just storm Terra and wherever else they want.

1) Much of the CSM forces simply want to take over the Imperium, not destroy it. Abaddon refuses to become a DP for this exact reason.
2) There are way more CSM than the 1,000,000 loyalist space marines, if you go by the fact that not only do they have Traitor Legions, but there are untold numbers of loyalists defecting over the years and CSM make their own troops in limited quantities as well. Add cultists and corrupted IG to that, CSM forces are ridiculously strong, they just haven't #rekt Terra yet because of the whole Cadia/pylons near the Eye of Terror plot armor shenanigans.
3) Cadia falls, CSM forces pour onto Terra and the rest of the Imperium. Abaddon takes control and launches a new crusade against the Xenos to bring mankind to its "true glory" under the Chaos Gods instead of the corpse emperor. It will be tough because Xenos will predict this and try to stop it, but which faction can truly stand up to the full might of Chaos? Eldar are too few, Orkz don't even care and probably love the possibility of the even crazier new wars it brings, Tau: LOL, Nids aren't organized enough/might not even care, Necrons have little to gain in the grand scheme of things, and I haven't even factored in daemon allies for CSM yet. Even if Eldar, Tau, and Necrons teamed up while Orkz and Tyranids just happened to be in the area, I don't see them eradicating the enormous Imperium, especially one aided by the Chaos Gods and without the need for the Astronomicon.
4) The new Chaos Imperium becomes stabilized, and in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, there is only war. Abby staves off Xenos but probably can't completely destroy them.

Now of course all of this assumes none of the Chaos Gods pull a Just As Planned™, but that doesn't matter. If we're just talking about having CSM as the "good guys", they could use the above points to justify their actions.

And that concludes today's Heresy 101 class.

 ZultanQ wrote:
I would say this is quite doable, considering there is a strong argument for a brighter future under Chaos.

No, not really. For the average person, under the tyranny of Chaos you're just going to be tortured to death as a sacrifice for those whom the fickle Dark Gods currently favor. And the worst thing that could happen to a Chaos Cultist is for Chaos to win, because a planet overwhelmed by warp and demons becomes a hell beyond comprehension-- unless you have the fickle favor of the Chaos Gods (and the overwhelming majority of people do not), you'll just be fodder for slaughter and torment.

It isn't Hell, its just different. Hell is pure suffering, and there is nothing pure about Chaos.

All Chaos does is tear down physical limitations, to the point where the mind can conquer all. Your thoughts and emotions are tangible things. Laws don't matter. Rules don't matter. When you step onto a daemon world, the only thing that matters is how you feel.

Khorne is the God of Rage, but hatred is good. Without self-hatred, what is guilt? Without revenge, what is justice? Slaanesh is the God of Pleasure, and pleasure makes life worth living. Nurgle lets us look past death and the inevitable. Tzeentch lets us see hope in our futures.

Humans defined Chaos.

 LoneLictor wrote:
All Chaos does is tear down physical limitations, to the point where the mind can conquer all. Your thoughts and emotions are tangible things. Laws don't matter. Rules don't matter. When you step onto a daemon world, the only thing that matters is how you feel.

No, that's not how it works.

We have actual accounts of demon worlds, where demons feast eternally upon mortals, tormenting them in ways that make the Christian hell seem tame.

 Melissia wrote:

 ZultanQ wrote:
I would say this is quite doable, considering there is a strong argument for a brighter future under Chaos.

No, not really. For the average person, under the tyranny of Chaos you're just going to be tortured to death as a sacrifice for those whom the fickle Dark Gods currently favor. And the worst thing that could happen to a Chaos Cultist is for Chaos to win, because a planet overwhelmed by warp and demons becomes a hell beyond comprehension-- unless you have the fickle favor of the Chaos Gods (and the overwhelming majority of people do not), you'll just be fodder for slaughter and torment.

The book Daemon World depicts a planet overwhelmed by the Warp and daemons. It's not a hell beyond comprehension. Yes, the daemons rule, and there's violence, strife, sacrifice of enemies, mutation, and general weirdness, but there are also lots of people living their lives at a standard no worse than those on an Imperial hive world. On a hive world, most people work in a factory 18 hours a day from when they learn to walk to when they die (prematurely) and are processed and fed to their fellow workers. Let's be honest, they're SLAVES. Slaves who are given the minimum material goods to keep them going and are slowly worked to death. Sounds pretty hellish to me!

A Chaos world is more violent and dangerous in comparison, but also much more free. It's basically a meritocracy, where different factions fight to be top dog, and anyone with enough skill can make it. Personally, given the choice between the two I'd take the Chaos world. At least there's the possibility of doing something that makes a difference there. On a hive world that's completely snuffed out. The only chance at anything approaching a decent life is being born a noble (0.000001% chance) or becoming a ganger in the underhive, which really isn't all that different from living on a Chaos dominated world, lack of warp shenanigans aside. And the vast majority of Imperial citizens are hive worlders.

Are there a lot of nasty goings on on Chaos controlled worlds? Absolutely, especially if you haven't embraced Chaos, and are therefore an enemy to be used, sacrificed, or otherwise disposed of as the Chaos champions see fit. But if Chaos society really were the hyperbolic hell that is occasionally vaguely alluded to in some sources, Chaos worshipers wouldn't be able to function enough to build any armies or machines or get anything done. Ever.

 Melissia wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
All Chaos does is tear down physical limitations, to the point where the mind can conquer all. Your thoughts and emotions are tangible things. Laws don't matter. Rules don't matter. When you step onto a daemon world, the only thing that matters is how you feel.

No, that's not how it works.

We have actual accounts of demon worlds, where demons feast eternally upon mortals, tormenting them in ways that make the Christian hell seem tame.

We also have accounts of daemon worlds where everyone lives in harmony, dancing in honor of Nurgle.

Melissa, every other post in this thread is you saying, "No". Just because there are mentions of horrible Chaotic things doesn't mean that Chaos is inherently evil. I could argue that toasters are inherently evil because there are toaster fires, or that coconuts are inherently evil because they kill more people than sharks every year. Now, 40k isn't the most highbrow work, but there is some depth to it. Chaos is about complete freedom, and all the good and evil (mostly evil because its 40k) that comes with it. And yes, most followers will be used and then neglected, but for those lucky few Chaos can very much payoff. Laissez-faire capitalism applied to the daemonic 4th dimension.

 LoneLictor wrote:
Just because there are mentions of horrible Chaotic things doesn't mean that Chaos is inherently evil.

... you seem to be forgetting, that's what demons are. They are Horrible Chaotic Things.

And the Chaos Gods are, if anything, even more extreme, even more horrible, even more chaotic things.

And their worshipers desire to emulate them.

Khornate worshipers desire blood sacrifice, for Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, only that it does.

Nurgle worshipers desire to make everyone else as miserable as they are, for Nurgle thinks misery is happiness.

Slaaneshi worshipers desire to live massively hedonistic lives, taking everyone else as slaves to abuse, rape, and torment for the sake of their sadistic joy-- just like their god/dess.

Tzeenchian worshipers desire power and schemes, and like the god they worship, they gain power and plot against each other for the sake of doing so, not caring for waht gets destroyed and who gets harmed in the process.

The Chaos Gods do not care even one bit for the health (either physical or mental) of the humans that worship them, they have their own bizarre alien desires and it doesn't matter to them how many of us they kill in order to obtain them. The nature of all four Gods of Chaos corrupts their followers in to utter immoral and amoral monsters with the bodies (usually) of people.

Chaos is not evil, since evil is a definition. Chaos is by definition impossible to define.

They are good and evil at once.

I'll go and give "Chaos Space Marines is good" a shot....

The Imperium as is is a mechanism of survival for humanity as it currently stands. The original intent of the Emperor to usher in a new golden age for humanity is now dead, and all that remains is the corpse of that idea, and those willing to fight for it. Fight and struggle to survive. There is really no other thing that the Imperium could do as their zenith of power is long past and the threats that grow incrementally each year are not going away, but getting stronger as time progresses.

For the average human, Chaos and the Imperium could literally be interchangeable. The Imperium will work you to death; Chaos sacrifice you for their cause. In the case of Imperial ideology, all things are centered around sacrificing oneself to the glory and power of the Emperor of Mankind; you should be thankful to die for him!

For Chaos, Chaos will use you to their ends too, but this is the perspective of Chaos Space Marines, not the length and breadth of every heretic, traitor, slave, and mutant.

To a Chaos Space Marine in their myriad forms, they are fighting against the Imperium in one form or another. For the renegades fresh from expulsion from the bosom of the Emperor, they are fighting either for survival or their own form of what constitutes their vision of the Imperium. At best noble if misguided in their purpose, at worst they are already debased scoundrels and pirates.

For those who actively seek the glory of Chaos, they are your bread and butter ranks. These are marines who have chosen with their own free will to abandon the Emperor and curry favor with beings who actively partake in mortal affairs, and are more pure in their intent than the Imperium is with the mortal decrees and laws that govern the twisting and baroque mechanisms that make the Imperium lurch forward. In a sense, they are fighting for the individual aspects of humanity rather than the greater good. Of course a murdering Khorne berzerkers is not going to be fighting for good and just causes, but his intent is clear and his purpose pristine.

For the Legionaries still around since the Horus Heresy, they perhaps come closest to good guys in the Chaos Marine ranks (outside of Nurgle aligned marines who are few of the positive thinkers of the Chaos worshippers, but their gifts are certainly not righteous in and of itself).

They are looking to dismantle the oppressive regime of the Emperor who had failed them in one form or another. Whatever their original beef with the Big E, they are now your slimmest hope of upending the established order of the Imperium and ushering in an age where the Imperial mechanisms of government collapse and humanity then can choose its own destiny.

Yes if Chaos beats the forces of the Imperium, things will go bad real quick for most of the Imperium. BUT of the positives that would come out of it, it could cause some new, fresh ideas to come back into the fold. It would allow greater expansion for those who the will and intent to fight for their ideals.

I have to say I disagree with a lot of the thread.

I believe it IS possible to have a sympathetic CSM warband, but in the end Chaos itself is inherently evil.

The dark side of chaos is the end point. The lighter less evil parts are only to entice people and not scare them away as much.

Chaos does represent duality and is a two sided coin to some extent but the fluff makes it ridiculously clear that the coin is weighted to eventually land dark side up in the end every time.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Ahahahahah-no.

Chaos Space Marines are pretty much the only faction that can be outright called evil.

jreilly your post was blank

 Melissia wrote:
And the Chaos Gods are, if anything, even more extreme, even more horrible, even more chaotic things.

The Chaos gods are also good. For example, Khorne isn't just the god of indiscriminate slaughter, it is the god of honorable combat and glory in battle. Which is the whole point of Chaos, you don't just wake up one day and decide you want to be a comic book villain, you start with good intentions, tell yourself that the ends justify the means, and eventually take it to an unhealthy extreme as you fall deeper and deeper into the lure of Chaos. Meanwhile the Imperium represents Order, committing acts of unspeakable evil in the name of maintaining its power, but holding back an (arguably) even worse fate. Reducing it to a shallow good vs. evil struggle just removes everything that makes that aspect of the setting interesting.

The Chaos Gods aren't good because while they are powered by good emotions as much as negative ones, they themselves desire only the most extreme and damaging of traits.

Khorne may be empowered by honor and martial pride, but he desires a Galaxy in which every living thing is embroiled in constant warfare, from babies to the elderly- hence the phrase "Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows".

Tzeentch may be empowered by hope, but he desires a Galaxy in which nothing is stable but constantly changing, the quicker and more spontaneous the better, and in which every living thing is constantly scheming and plotting over one another.

Nurgle may be empowered by willpower and endurance, but he desires a Galaxy in which everything is stagnant, never changing, never improving, and every living thing is bereft of hope and resigned to a meaningless, stagnant existence.

Slaanesh may be empowered by pleasure and virility, but he desires a Galaxy in which every extreme and excess is being experienced, even to the detriment of the participants. In Slaanesh' ideal galaxy, every living thing is basically a gibbering hyper-active vegetable, murdering themselves and others in their never-ending mission to experience the next big thrill.

Thus "Chaos". Chaos is evil, or at the very least it is destructive, because the beings who encompass Chaos, if unchecked, would annihilate the Galaxy and all living things in their quest to fulfill their thematic cause for existence.

 Melissia wrote:
Ahahahahah-no.

Chaos Space Marines are pretty much the only faction that can be outright called evil.

I thought the Dark Elves/Eldar were the ones described as pure evil.

Anyway, you seem to have a very strong adverse reaction to my idea, it's almost as though you're an Imperial citizen.


I'm thinking of putting the conventional description of Chaos as Imperial propaganda. The Forces of Chaos themselves have a positive view of Chaos and describe it with their own form of propaganda.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The Chaos Gods aren't good because while they are powered by good emotions as much as negative ones, they themselves desire only the most extreme and damaging of traits.

Khorne may be empowered by honor and martial pride, but he desires a Galaxy in which every living thing is embroiled in constant warfare, from babies to the elderly- hence the phrase "Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows".

Tzeentch may be empowered by hope, but he desires a Galaxy in which nothing is stable but constantly changing, the quicker and more spontaneous the better, and in which every living thing is constantly scheming and plotting over one another.

Nurgle may be empowered by willpower and endurance, but he desires a Galaxy in which everything is stagnant, never changing, never improving, and every living thing is bereft of hope and resigned to a meaningless, stagnant existence.

Slaanesh may be empowered by pleasure and virility, but he desires a Galaxy in which every extreme and excess is being experienced, even to the detriment of the participants. In Slaanesh' ideal galaxy, every living thing is basically a gibbering hyper-active vegetable, murdering themselves and others in their never-ending mission to experience the next big thrill.

Thus "Chaos". Chaos is evil, or at the very least it is destructive, because the beings who encompass Chaos, if unchecked, would annihilate the Galaxy and all living things in their quest to fulfill their thematic cause for existence.

I guess a Chaos Space Marine views Chaos, not Order, as the ultimate purpose of existence in the universe. Hence from his point of view, Chaos would be "good".

The Dark Eldar codex outright states they're the most evil faction in the intro doesn't it? Or was it just "cruelest"? Though my memory says "evil" is the word used.

By the way, Dark Eldar CHOOSE that life style. They have alternate ways of surviving but they choose not to take them(Craftworld Eldar, Harlequins, Exodites, and maaaybe Eldar Corsairs though there really isn't much difference there for Dark Eldar that choose the Corsair lifestyle). As shown by how sometimes Dark Eldar DO become some of the above, there is nothing really barring them from those alternate lifestyles besides their own greed and cruelty (all those lifestyles are much more controlled and less "fun", etc, than the DE lifestyle)

The only thing really noble about the Dark Eldar is that many of them do sincerely believe they are keeping the true culture of their race alive (and they're probably right, since that "culture" was what the Eldar was before Slaanesh popped into being. ....thanks to that hedonistic culture but eh.), as shown by Vecht's short story to that captive, Hesparax owning a museum, and several fluff pieces and even a novel where Dark Eldar team up with Eldar to save historical sites... even if for a price, as well as another where an Archon recovers several historical Eldar artifacts from before the fall which propels his status among the dark elder). Of course, while that could be noble-ish, I hardly think being a good historian in any way makes their other lifestyle choices less evil.

So yes, they have a really evil lifestyle that they actively chose over other options. The codex is probably correct in calling them the most evil faction.

As for CSM, "good" (relatively) CSM do exist kinda like the Blood Gorgans, but you won't find any really really "Wow, that guy's a saint!" altruistic cases like you would find amongst the Imperium, such as Yarrick weeping when he heard a hive's entire defense was killed to a man, or the Salamanders or things when the Crimson Fists helped that woman and her child during the Rynn World invasion. If such cases do exist, the fluff hasn't really shown them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

I guess a Chaos Space Marine views Chaos, not Order, as the ultimate purpose of existence in the universe. Hence from his point of view, Chaos would be "good".

Some of them do. Word Bearers in particular. Even then, they'd mostly fall under "Visionary Villain" more than "Good Guy", because they're still doing horrific acts to achieve what they believe is the purpose of existence. And even then, you never really see them call Chaos "Good". Instead they use terms that don't have as much moral alignment, such as "Glorious", "primordial truth", "true purpose", and "Mankind's true natural masters", but rarely "good".

Most CSM are portrayed as really only caring about themselves, though.

 Peregrine wrote:
The Chaos gods are also good. For example, Khorne isn't just the god of indiscriminate slaughter, it is the god of honorable combat

Until it gets in the way of the indiscriminate slaughter.

Khorne cares not from whom the blood flows, only that it does.

 Melissia wrote:
Khorne cares not from whom the blood flows, only that it does.

Not quite true. For example, Khorne isn't going to reward you for slaughtering a bunch of helpless babies when you could be on a proper battlefield slaughtering enemy warriors.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Khorne cares not from whom the blood flows, only that it does.

Not quite true. For example, Khorne isn't going to reward you for slaughtering a bunch of helpless babies when you could be on a proper battlefield slaughtering enemy warriors.

Khorne will certainly welcome their blood if you slaughter them on your way to the battlefield, or if there is no battlefield (yet), and you're simply slaughtering them to draw the attentions of more-powerful foes, who will raise armies in abhorrence of your actions, to oppose the might of your own armies.

That is where Khorne is worshipped.

Blood for the Blood God is all.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Khorne cares not from whom the blood flows, only that it does.

Not quite true. For example, Khorne isn't going to reward you for slaughtering a bunch of helpless babies when you could be on a proper battlefield slaughtering enemy warriors.

Khorne will certainly welcome their blood if you slaughter them on your way to the battlefield, or if there is no battlefield (yet), and you're simply slaughtering them to draw the attentions of more-powerful foes, who will raise armies in abhorrence of your actions, to oppose the might of your own armies.

That is where Khorne is worshipped.

Blood for the Blood God is all.

If you deliberately stay out of a true battle to slay the helpless, however, it does not please Khorne.

So it is not entirely true that he won't care from where the blood flows.

Khorne is the God of hatred, including self-hatred. That's part of why he has the strictest code and his followers don't want any pleasure.

On the flipside of the coin, Slaanesh is forgiveness and acceptance. She won't be angry at you. There's a chance she'll still kill you, but its not because she's angry. She understands and forgives you, and you should forgive yourself too.

Regarding Chaos, I think that BlaxicanX has the right idea. Ultimately, these forces coming to power (and that's what they're always trying to do) would be extremely bad for the galaxy and anybody living in it. Sure,a given mortal servant of Chaos might have some sort of good streak to them, but the force behind them has no such silver linings.

 Peregrine wrote:
Not quite true. For example, Khorne isn't going to reward you for slaughtering a bunch of helpless babies when you could be on a proper battlefield slaughtering enemy warriors.

His Daemons and those corrupted by him will certainly go about slaughtering innocent non-combatents in their rampages. That he doesn't reward his servants for killing civilains doesn't really give him a good streak, just an apathetic one.

 LoneLictor wrote:
Khorne is the God of hatred, including self-hatred. That's part of why he has the strictest code and his followers don't want any pleasure.

On the flipside of the coin, Slaanesh is forgiveness and acceptance. She won't be angry at you. There's a chance she'll still kill you, but its not because she's angry. She understands and forgives you, and you should forgive yourself too.

The Prince of Perversion has no reason for forgiveness. It's not what S/He's the God/dess of. Perversion, Pleasure and Vice is Hir portfolio.

A universe freed from all laws is one that literally boils away into true anarchy, where things like form and thought abideth not. Your body ceases to exist as your mind is freed from all forms of physical shackles... and this is not a state that human minds were ever designed, or meant, to experience. This, truly, is madness on a galactic scale.

Also, once freed in such a manner into the truth of the Immaterium, you become prey to the *much* more powerful sentiences that reside within it. You are but the tiny guppy in a vast sea of planet-sized sharks.

 Psienesis wrote:
Khorne will certainly welcome their blood if you slaughter them on your way to the battlefield, or if there is no battlefield (yet), and you're simply slaughtering them to draw the attentions of more-powerful foes, who will raise armies in abhorrence of your actions, to oppose the might of your own armies.

Of course, Khorne is still the god of killing. But the point is that Khorne is also the god of combat, which includes things we normally think of as virtues, like matching your strength against the enemy's strength and winning. Which means two things:

1) Khorne transcends one-dimensional good vs. evil. It celebrates "good" killing, just as it celebrates "evil" killing. It is not bound by human concepts of morality, it simply exists.

2) It is possible to follow Khorne without being evil. In fact that's the whole point of how chaos corruption works. You don't (usually) wake up one day and decide to dedicate your life to slaughtering everything you encounter, you start off as a "good" soldier, just doing your duty. You start to value combat for its own sake, rather than as a means to an end, until the desire to perfect your combat abilities begins to define and consume you. And then Khorne has you.

 Peregrine wrote:
2) It is possible to follow Khorne without being evil. In fact that's the whole point of how chaos corruption works. You don't (usually) wake up one day and decide to dedicate your life to slaughtering everything you encounter, you start off as a "good" soldier, just doing your duty. You start to value combat for its own sake, rather than as a means to an end, until the desire to perfect your combat abilities begins to define and consume you. And then Khorne has you.

Isn't ending up bloodthirsty and full of rage a pretty evil way to be, though? Because that's what Khornate corruption leads to, sooner or later.

And this is just looking at "regular" Khornate corruption. Throughout 40K fluff, there's accounts of him using various means to instantly turn people into violent murderers. The Bloodtide, for example, made those it affected bloodily murder people. IIRC there is an account or two in FFG stuff of Khorne similarly corrupting civilians.

Wasn't the Bloodthirster some sort of archotech that was being used by a Khornate Daemon?

I assume where Peregrine is going is that it could be possible to design it in a way that an early worshipper and perhaps a mid era CSM could be portrayed in a sympathetic, perhaps even "good guy" manner. Granted good in 40k isn't quite sunshine and dasies either but you catch my drift.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Khorne will certainly welcome their blood if you slaughter them on your way to the battlefield, or if there is no battlefield (yet), and you're simply slaughtering them to draw the attentions of more-powerful foes, who will raise armies in abhorrence of your actions, to oppose the might of your own armies.

Of course, Khorne is still the god of killing. But the point is that Khorne is also the god of combat, which includes things we normally think of as virtues, like matching your strength against the enemy's strength and winning. Which means two things:

1) Khorne transcends one-dimensional good vs. evil. It celebrates "good" killing, just as it celebrates "evil" killing. It is not bound by human concepts of morality, it simply exists.

2) It is possible to follow Khorne without being evil. In fact that's the whole point of how chaos corruption works. You don't (usually) wake up one day and decide to dedicate your life to slaughtering everything you encounter, you start off as a "good" soldier, just doing your duty. You start to value combat for its own sake, rather than as a means to an end, until the desire to perfect your combat abilities begins to define and consume you. And then Khorne has you.

That is entirely correct. As they say, "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions". You might fall into the worship of Khorne purely as a martial deity, like many of the gods of war from Earth's own mythology... but as things go on, and as you are driven into more and more conflicts, well... first, it was just a village of civilians who were actively assisting the enemy. Then it was a village of sympathizers. Then it was people who were suspected of sympathizing. Then it was people who might have been sympathizers... maybe... And then it was...

 Psienesis wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Khorne will certainly welcome their blood if you slaughter them on your way to the battlefield, or if there is no battlefield (yet), and you're simply slaughtering them to draw the attentions of more-powerful foes, who will raise armies in abhorrence of your actions, to oppose the might of your own armies.

Of course, Khorne is still the god of killing. But the point is that Khorne is also the god of combat, which includes things we normally think of as virtues, like matching your strength against the enemy's strength and winning. Which means two things:

1) Khorne transcends one-dimensional good vs. evil. It celebrates "good" killing, just as it celebrates "evil" killing. It is not bound by human concepts of morality, it simply exists.

2) It is possible to follow Khorne without being evil. In fact that's the whole point of how chaos corruption works. You don't (usually) wake up one day and decide to dedicate your life to slaughtering everything you encounter, you start off as a "good" soldier, just doing your duty. You start to value combat for its own sake, rather than as a means to an end, until the desire to perfect your combat abilities begins to define and consume you. And then Khorne has you.

That is entirely correct. As they say, "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions". You might fall into the worship of Khorne purely as a martial deity, like many of the gods of war from Earth's own mythology... but as things go on, and as you are driven into more and more conflicts, well... first, it was just a village of civilians who were actively assisting the enemy. Then it was a village of sympathizers. Then it was people who were suspected of sympathizing. Then it was people who might have been sympathizers... maybe... And then it was...

This is off-subject but quick question: Isn't that how some Eldar like the Howling Banshees get claimed by Khorne? They start out venerating Kaela Mensha Khaine but then sometimes loose control to become consumed by a pure warlike bloodlust to the point that if they would die their soul would be claimed by Khorne instead of Slaanesh? If I recall correctly, they also prefer this fate over the possibility of getting claimed by Slaanesh. So with that respect I guess certain factions of Chaos are judged to be worse than others.

Back on topic, I still think it comes down to a matter of perspective. Warhammer 40k has never been good vs. evil but a battle of perspectives.

Even from the perspective of Chaos itself, they still call themselves evil, and embrace it. "Let no good deed go unpunished, let no evil deed go unrewarded."

Even from the perspective of Chaos itself, they still call themselves evil, and embrace it. "Let no good deed go unpunished, let no evil deed go unrewarded."

That's from the older fluff. In the newer stuff they seem to see themselves as above morality.

 Melissia wrote:
Ahahahahah-no.

Chaos Space Marines are pretty much the only faction that can be outright called evil.

But can the imperium of man be called good in comparison?
By no means would the imperium of man be a happy place to live.
I mean, all of the armies of the imperium of man require you to abandon all free will and dedicate yourself 100% to the great leader that is the emperor of mankind. No deviant thoughts allowed.
At least the chaos gods allow you to do whatever the balls you want as long as you dedicate it to them.

DaPino wrote:
At least the chaos gods allow you to do whatever the balls you want as long as you dedicate it to them.

Only if you're a warlord, and even then, only until the fickle Chaos Gods get bored and decide to turn you in to an abomination. But then again, the equivalent position in the Imperium have equivalent freedoms, too.

The average person on a Chaos world has basically one job, "be a victim/sacrifice for everyone above you". And it'e enforced on them without any choice in their part.

The average person on a Chaos world has basically one job, "be a victim/sacrifice for everyone above you".

I disagree and heres why

Like most Daemon Worlds, Drakaasi is mind-warpingly strange. Befitting of a world dedicated to Khorne, its greatest feature is a sea of blood which connects the cities of the planet. Each city has its own arena where games are held in honour of the Blood God. Some are no more than shanty towns sitting atop the ocean of blood while others are unique; one is a great crystal which resonates with music dedicated to the lord of battles, another is nothing but a battlefield where men are regularly sent to their deaths to add to the Skull Throne, and yet another is a graveyard, where the titanic remains of gigantic warriors and their weapons litter the ground and have been turned into dwellings by the new inhabitants. Each honours the Blood God in its own way.[1]

Underneath the great cities of Drakaasi are many caverns where Scaephylyds, the xenos who form the slave caste of the daemon world, dwell.[1]

SocietyEverything on Drakaasi is made to honour the Blood God. The most prominent facet of this is the gladiatorial games where thousands meet their deaths every day.

There are many diverse members of the planet's ruling class, including Daemons, barbarian chieftains, Amazon-like huntresses, Chaos Space Marines, and regular men trying to act like nobility. They often get into petty squabbles which result in open warfare, but their main occupation is to raid other worlds for slaves to fight in the great arenas of Khorne. They all, however, submit to the supreme rule of Lord Ebondrake, a reptilian Daemon Prince who sponsors the games and commands the greatest army on Drakaasi.[1]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Drakaasi
A fully functioning society under the most dyfunction of chaos gods.

99.99999 percent of of Imperials are little more than slaves that live and die without even knowing about the war that thier producing weopons for. Sacrifices what about the golden throne progecting the agony of psyckers. In 40k you will die one out of three ways, a worn out slave, the subject of an unnesesary execution, or dying honorably living life with at least a little freedom.

A higher percentage of chaos society get to have some miminimal freedoms.

... nothing in that quote says anything about the 99.9999999% of the population of that world not being virtual slaves to that diverse noble caste.

Here's why:
and regular men trying to act like nobility which means they are often get into petty squabbles which result in open warfare .

They are slaves to the Blood God, to kill and die as his whim directs. If the former, they are the sacrificer. If the latter? They are the sacrifice.

They are, in essence, a planet of Imperial Guardsmen. I can guarantee you that no one on that planet has the freedom to preach peace and tolerance.

Sacrifices what about the golden throne progecting the agony of psyckers

That isn't how that works. Those psykers who power the Astronomican might last years at their task, others only days, but it's a leaching process, not a torturous one. The thousand a day who are fed to the God-Emperor are for other purposes than the Astronomican.

or dying honorably living life with at least a little freedom.

No one dies that way in 40K. No one.

The thing with 40K is that while the Imperium is not always the good guy, Chaos is always the bad guy. There are no exceptions to this rule.

Now, renegades who haven't turned to Chaos? Maybe they might feel wrong. Might even have a legitimate gripe. But if they've gone to Chaos, they're evil.

Thousand Sons aren't evil, they were set up, and upon realizing they could not prove their loyalty to the IoM, accepted their fate.

Not sure what it says about me but the first real life comparison that popped into my head was an NPR story about a black man living in ghetto America who was accused of a drug crime he didn't commit and was beaten until he wrote a confession for the crime.

Then they developed a hatred for the IoM, much like the black man afterwards developed a hatred for the local police force.

That's not really how it works though. You don't get to be angry, and then take out your aggression on the innocent. That makes you evil.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
That's not really how it works though. You don't get to be angry, and then take out your aggression on the innocent. That makes you evil.

Umm...awfully black and white don't you think? Especially considering that the universe GW has set up for 40k, it seems to be nothing but grey from here.

 Melissia wrote:
They don't really qualify as "Chaos Marines".

I prefer to call them the mentally challenged marines. I really wonder at times if the Soul Drinkers were created from Ogryns.

Also, depends entirely on the Warband. Some CSM's are semi reasonable antiheroes, certainly by the standard of the Imperium. Others, well, then you have the Emperor's Children.

 Envihon wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
That's not really how it works though. You don't get to be angry, and then take out your aggression on the innocent. That makes you evil.

Umm...awfully black and white don't you think? Especially considering that the universe GW has set up for 40k, it seems to be nothing but grey from here.

Evil: To perpertrate acts which harm others, whether for personal gain or the joy of it.

Good: To perpetrate acts with aid others, whether for personal gain or the joy of it.

Moral relativism is a load of bull. For a change, I'm agreeing with Veteran Sergeant (and you should know, I never agree with Veteran Sergeant).

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Drakaasi
A fully functioning society under the most dyfunction of chaos gods.

99.99999 percent of of Imperials are little more than slaves that live and die without even knowing about the war that thier producing weopons for. Sacrifices what about the golden throne progecting the agony of psyckers. In 40k you will die one out of three ways, a worn out slave, the subject of an unnesesary execution, or dying honorably living life with at least a little freedom.

A higher percentage of chaos society get to have some miminimal freedoms.

That's a functioning society, but it's still a pretty evil one. If you didn't notice, it relies on slavery to keep going.

Yes, the IoM has slavery in some parts too, but let's just forget about the IoM here since the topic is whether or not Chaos can be good (in the end. Chaos can START good for a given definition of "good" sometimes but the end result is EXPLICITLY always "corruption"). And in this planet's case, I wouldn't classify it as "good" under most definitions and relative opinions of "good".

 changerofways wrote:
Thousand Sons aren't evil, they were set up, and upon realizing they could not prove their loyalty to the IoM, accepted their fate.

Not sure what it says about me but the first real life comparison that popped into my head was an NPR story about a black man living in ghetto America who was accused of a drug crime he didn't commit and was beaten until he wrote a confession for the crime.

Then they developed a hatred for the IoM, much like the black man afterwards developed a hatred for the local police force.

Just because they had a reason to become villains/evil doesn't mean they aren't villains/evil now. The Thousand Sons of today have been consistently portrayed as selfish back stabbing jerks who are only in things for themselves and don't care how many innocents they trample along the way. Some of them might have some "Ends justifies the means" motifs going on (like that guy in Black Crusade who wants to find a way to restore his brothers from their rubric state) but that doesn't change that they don't care how many innocents are killed or sacrificed along the way.

(again, sometimes the IoM doesn't care either, although even in the worse case scenarios they usually at least pretend to care. But this isn't about whether or not Chaos is more evil than the IoM, even if it generally is. This is about whether or not Chaos itself is good. And the fluff has yet to really show any decent examples, unlike the IoM which, bad as it is, has MANY truly heroic cases and individuals displayed. Chaos just doesn't get any good guy showings like that in official fluff, ever. At most they RARELY get some Pet the Dog moments, but it's still all dogs to them).

I would say that approaching this topic you cannot have your characters be completely devoted to chaos and still be good guys.

There is a scale, a balance between order and chaos. Neither is inherently good or evil, but taken to their extremes they are destructive and not conducive to life.

The extreme of chaos is demons, beings of pure energy who wish only to tear down or corrupt.

While the extreme of order are the Necrons, soulless monsters who wish to sterilize the galaxy of all life.

I think you'd be better of writing about renegades not followers of chaos, after all everyone is bias towards the Imperium due to hte fact that it is the only hope for the continued survival of man.

Let us not make the mistake of assuming that, because Chaos is Evil, the Imperium is, therefore, Good. It doesn't work that way.

Chaos is Evil, yes. The Imperium is slightly-less-evil.

Just pointing something out.

In the real world, no one was a "good guy" before around 1960. That's because when we (which means modern people raised in Westernish cultures) say that somebody is a "good guy." what they actually means is that somebody is "somebody who thinks like us."

Naturally enough, before around 1960 there was almost no one who "thought like us" and therefore there were no good guys. Similarly, since value systems have not stopped changing, in another 60 years people will think that we in 2014 are vile. That's just the way things work.

So realistically no one 38,000 years in the future is going to be a good guy. It's absurd.

Ehmm... no.

Ahem, yes. The modern Western value system is very recent historically.

For instance, you get long debates on this forum over homophobia and sexism in 40K. 100 years ago this would have been ridiculous.

Anyway, the point is that expecting people 38.000 thousand years in the future to have the same ethical views as we do is ridiculous.

Neither of which exist as established facets of Imperial (or Chaotic) society in M41, so is irrelevant.

Chaos wants to take your immortal soul (not a conceptual thing in 40K, but a thing known and proven to exist) and do things to it that no sane mind of any sentient species in the galaxy wants to have happen to it.

Gods are not metaphorical concepts or bits of mythology in M41. They are (by those allowed to know) known to be things that truly exist, that truly do things that affect the Material Universe and, in 90% of cases, have an exceedingly malignant view towards mortal life.

100 years ago (and before), we had the beginnings of the modern Suffrage movement so, no, the idea of "sexism is bad" is not something from the last 50 years. 160 years ago, we had societal shifts to do away with the racist practice of slavery in the United States, and in Europe as well (where the slave trade had all but ended entirely, which became a political point during the American Civil War, which left the Confederacy the only nation in the then-"modern" world to have the institution).

Thousands of years ago, we had egalitarian societies throughout the Americas and in Europe (notably not Rome or Greece). It was the establishment (mostly via conquering armies) of a particular collection of monotheistic cults that did away with these societies and established the patriarchal socio-political systems that are most-commonly considered "the old ways" today. In most cases, no one thought they were a really good idea then, either (except, of course, the partriarchs at the top of the pile, and those immediately benefiting from them),

So... no.

 Psienesis wrote:
Let us not make the mistake of assuming that, because Chaos is Evil, the Imperium is, therefore, Good. It doesn't work that way.

Chaos is Evil, yes. The Imperium is slightly-less-evil.

I'm not saying the Imperium is good I'm saying if you were in 40k who would you align yourself with?

The Imperiums goal is the continued survival of mankind at all costs.

 Psienesis wrote:
Neither of which exist as established facets of Imperial (or Chaotic) society in M41, so is irrelevant.

Chaos wants to take your immortal soul (not a conceptual thing in 40K, but a thing known and proven to exist) and do things to it that no sane mind of any sentient species in the galaxy wants to have happen to it.

Gods are not metaphorical concepts or bits of mythology in M41. They are (by those allowed to know) known to be things that truly exist, that truly do things that affect the Material Universe and, in 90% of cases, have an exceedingly malignant view towards mortal life.

100 years ago (and before), we had the beginnings of the modern Suffrage movement so, no, the idea of "sexism is bad" is not something from the last 50 years. 160 years ago, we had societal shifts to do away with the racist practice of slavery in the United States, and in Europe as well (where the slave trade had all but ended entirely, which became a political point during the American Civil War, which left the Confederacy the only nation in the then-"modern" world to have the institution).

Thousands of years ago, we had egalitarian societies throughout the Americas and in Europe (notably not Rome or Greece). It was the establishment (mostly via conquering armies) of a particular collection of monotheistic cults that did away with these societies and established the patriarchal socio-political systems that are most-commonly considered "the old ways" today. In most cases, no one thought they were a really good idea then, eithe.

By saying that you had the beginnings of the Suffrage movement and the beginnings of a movement away from racism you are in fact acknowledging that these ideas had a historical origin. Incidentally, racism itself has a historical origin,

We know almost nothing about the social structures of the Americas and Europe thousands of years ago, given a total absence of records, and anybody who claims otherwise is BSing, We do however know a lot about the social structures of the Near East thousands of years ago, and they were neither egalitarian nor monotheistic. And we do know that the pagan Celts and Germans both had slaves.

We know almost nothing about the social structures of the Americas and Europe thousands of years ago, given a total absence of records, and anybody who claims otherwise is BSing, We do however know a lot about the social structures of the Near East thousands of years ago, and they were neither egalitarian nor monotheistic. And we do know that the pagan Celts and Germans both had slaves.

That's simply not true as we have fairly good historical records from a number of sources (Roman, Celt, Nordic) about their societies, as well as the societies of the people they encountered, in addition to archaeological studies, but, again, we can look at the historical records of the time to denote shifts, both subtle and major, in these societies to observe social revolutions with regards to their practice of slavery, their attitudes towards it, and its practice in general.

Point being, just because a society was, in its own time, a certain way does not mean that it was not viewed as "evil" by its contemporaries, even within its own borders. It is not only through the eyes of history that such judgements are made.

I'm not saying the Imperium is good I'm saying if you were in 40k who would you align yourself with?

The Tau. I'll be a Gue'la farmer, thanks.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
That's not really how it works though. You don't get to be angry, and then take out your aggression on the innocent. That makes you evil.

Umm...awfully black and white don't you think? Especially considering that the universe GW has set up for 40k, it seems to be nothing but grey from here.

Evil: To perpertrate acts which harm others, whether for personal gain or the joy of it.

Good: To perpetrate acts with aid others, whether for personal gain or the joy of it.

Moral relativism is a load of bull. For a change, I'm agreeing with Veteran Sergeant (and you should know, I never agree with Veteran Sergeant).

From that definition, the Imperium would seem a lot better than it actually is because the whole goal of the Imperium is to aid Mankind and its existence which is a great premise and all but what are the means to get there? The road to hell is paved in good intentions. The "greater good" is not just the mantra of the Tau but it would apply to the Imperium as well since its ends are to promote Mankind as the dominate species but the means to do so can be pretty gruesome. I wasn't arguing moral relativism but things are rarely in extremes. Extremes exist but are usually the exception not the rule, this applies heavily in 40k for every faction. There is no black and white in 40k, no good vs. evil but a war of ideals.

Indeed.

I will quote a (censored) bit that I often trot out as to why there is no "fixing" the GrimDark of 40K:

The Imperium isn’t grim because things suck by choice and could be fine if a sensible person came along. That sensible person wouldn’t survive fifty seconds of the reality. The Imperium is grim because every single sh**decision, every single sacrifice, every single death, every single man, woman and child suffering a sh** life in the worst conditions imaginable, is the absolute best that can be done. It is a study of the worst happening to everyone and what part of your humanity must be sacrificed today just to stand a chance of survival, and all it asks is whether or not it would have perhaps been better to die.

Also, as the friendly neighborhood nihilist, I'd like to point out that morality just results from basic chemical compounds in your brain, and that good and evil are arbitrary constructs created by people with the power to enforce them. There is no good or evil, just what benefits and harms you or your ideological cult (and those who also are included within it).

To an extent, sure, but there's extremes even there. If you have wealth and people enough to send them to war to kill and capture people... couldn't you just pay some people to till your fields and harvest your crops?

This was, in fact, a great irony of the Confederacy. Plantation owners spent more on the purchase, care, and security of slaves than they would have by hiring white share-croppers.

Good and Evil are relative based on peoples' personal opinions, but there are things that a higher majority of beings would probably view as "good" than other things. For example, MOST people would view giving some food to some hungry poor people as "Good". MOST people would view murdering others against their will as "Evil".

Likewise, MOST people would view the VAST majority of what Chaos does or believes as "evil", and the number of fluff examples where Chaos has done things that most people would view as "good" are near nonexistent.

The Imperium, meanwhile, while having a lot of things many people would view as "evil", still has several aspects as well as individuals that most people would view as "good" or at least "debateable". Not that it particularly matters to the topic if one wants to strictly stick to the topic. Regardless of the Imperium, actual moments where Chaos does things that most people would genuinely consider "good" are ridiculously rare (nonexistent, even, perhaps)

Yes, Khorne could represent honor and Slaanesh beauty and Tzeentch drive, but point me to an actual fluff example of one of those individuals that's reached the latter stages of chaos "devoutness" that falls under what most people would consider "morally Good" and you won't find any to my knowledge (not just themselves, which mostly applies to just Nurgle followers but there are a few Tzeentch/Khorne/Slaanesh followers that genuinely think they're doing moral good. Doesn't change the fact that the majority of others would disagree) .

Even Black Crusade, where Chaos is the protagonist, the best they could come up with was things like an honorable Khornate follower who spared those who asked for mercy but still took something valuable in hopes that they'd fight to the death to keep it or else would one day come attack him attempting to get it back. That's still "evil" by most peoples' standards.

Actually there was a great short story in the back of the 2nd edition wargear book about a Chaos lord (Brother Captain Karlsen). It is actually one of my favorite stories from all of 40k. I wouldn't say the chaos lord is portrayed as a 'good guy', but he is still interesting to follow. The story is mainly about him meditating (more interesting than it sounds). Because he is 10,000 years old, he has a kind of mental map system for organizing his memories. The story follows him through some of his memories for 10,000 years, as he decides what he wants to keep. I certainly recommend reading that if you can find it.

Well, yea, Chaos can be insanely INTERESTING, for sure. It's just examples where they're morally good by what most people would consider "morally good" (as opposed to simply their own idea of what's "morally good") that are pretty much nonexistent.

Of course, as mentioned and explicitly stated in the fluff, they can START good. Doesn't change the end result (which, again, is explicitly stated). That doesn't mean they don't think they themselves are morally good (a short story of Kharn has him referring to Slaaneshi followers as "evil" and clearly genuinely believing he's doing good by killing them and genuinely doing good when he betrayed his brothers at Scaralax). It just means that by most other peoples' standards, they'd definitely not fall under the morally good side (even many other Khorne followers believe Kharn went overboard there)

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I disagree and heres why

One special snowflake planet does not make me change my mind when the overwhelming majority of examples say otherwise.

 Melissia wrote:

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I disagree and heres why

One special snowflake planet does not make me change my mind when the overwhelming majority of examples say otherwise.

One special snowflake Commissar or other Imperial leader does not make me change my mind when the overwhelming majority of examples say otherwise.

I think a big part of the disagreement here is over the meaning of "good guys." In 40k, the "good guys" are antiheroes or the lesser evil more often than not. If you're saying that a Chaos Space Marine isn't going to be some angelic, altruistic, goody two shoes then yes, I agree with you! But I do think that there are Chaos worshippers and even daemonic forces that could very easily be the lesser evil to some genocidal witch burning Redemptionist, or being enslaved to the Dark Eldar.

Ask yourself this question: who would you really, honestly, rather take your chances with, a fanatical Monodominant Inquisitor with paranoia and rage issues, or Ahzek Ahriman? Personally, I'd go with Ahriman. Yeah, he might do something bad to me, but only if it furthered his own ends. I'd just as likely get to go free. He's never been shown to be pointlessly sadistic. But all you Imperial loyalists have fun in the torture chamber and being burnt alive afterwards, because you scratched your nose in a way that indicated that you might possibly be in league with dark forces, so we have to squeeze you for information before watching you die in agony just to be sure.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
In some BL content you will find that the Space Marines are ultra heroic, noble and totally evil-killing Mary Sue badasses. On the other hand, the CSM are totally evil and despicable, and serve as cannon fodder to the heroic loyalists.

If you've read the SM & CSM 6th ed codices, you'll know what I mean. Reading through the SM codex, I found myself getting bored of the praise being heaped upon the SMs.

I'm thinking of writing a fanfic from the CSM point of view, in which the CSMs are portrayed as the good guys, and the negative aspects of the Imperium are especially highlighted.

Do you think it's a good or bad idea? Or is it too heretical to see the light of day?

If you read any of the HH novels that focus on the traitor legions it actually becomes a lot easier to relate to the traitors and to understand why they turned against the Emperor and gives them more personality versus "These guys are plague ridden, these guys are berserkers etc."

To some worlds the CSM are seen as saviors (in situations where they have been abandoned by the Imperium) or in the case of the Word Bearers are often seen as being holy warriors who are often worshiped in their own right.

Also something to keep in mind every codex/army book goes on and on and on about the virtues (or sins which in some cases is a good thing) of their respective armies as that book is there to promote that army.

Awesome!

Good is a point of view.

Humans eat delicious grox meat for sustenance. From the point of view of the grox the human is evil. From the point of view of the human the grox is food.

Chaos gods eat delicious human souls for sustenance. From the point of view of the human the Chaos gods are evil. From the point of view of the Chaos gods the human is food.

The Emperor also eats delicious human souls for sustenance. Does this not make him evil as well?

This is a universe where the strong feed on the weak. Mercy is a weakness and weakness is punished by death.

Chaos is inimical to the continuing existence of the Imperium. The Imperium is inimical to the continuing existence of the Chaos gods. Both will do what is necessary to survive. And both are absolutely horrible to the vast majority of their people. In a setting like this killing an innocent may be the nicest thing you could do for them.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Good is a point of view.

Humans eat delicious grox meat for sustenance. From the point of view of the grox the human is evil. From the point of view of the human the grox is food.

Chaos gods eat delicious human souls for sustenance. From the point of view of the human the Chaos gods are evil. From the point of view of the Chaos gods the human is food.

The Emperor also eats delicious human souls for sustenance. Does this not make him evil as well?

This is a universe where the strong feed on the weak. Mercy is a weakness and weakness is punished by death.

Chaos is inimical to the continuing existence of the Imperium. The Imperium is inimical to the continuing existence of the Chaos gods. Both will do what is necessary to survive. And both are absolutely horrible to the vast majority of their people. In a setting like this killing an innocent may be the nicest thing you could do for them.

This viewpoint woefully ignores what is ACTUALLY happening in the 40k setting.

For instance, while humans might be evil from the Grox's point of view, that doesn't change the fact that the chapter master of the Crimson Fists once carried a mother and his child on his back to safety during an Orc Waagh. Again, good is relative, but that is an action that the vast majority of people in both today's world and the 40th Millenium (or at least, the perspective we're given of it) would say is good. (also, it's arguable whether or not nonsentient beings like Grox even consider what's good and what's evil in the first place)

The Chaos Gods, meanwhile, have an official short story where they keep re-resurrecting a CHaos Space Marine and force him to hunt down the descendants of another Space Marine due to an oath he swore long ago. That has NOTHING to do with eating souls. The poor Chaos Marine literally begs the CHaos Gods every time he returns with the head of his latest kill to free him from his oath and finally let him die, and they never do. One day he actually got to see the chaos gods as he offered up his latest kill. AND THEY WERE LAUGHING AT HIM.

Again, that has nothing to do with eating souls. That is just being a jerk, and is something that, from the vast majority of perspectives both in reality and in 40k would say is evil (including that Chaos Marine's perspective. Yes, even a member of Chaos is seeing the Chaos gods as evil)

Good and Evil are relative and subjective depending on who you ask. However, the VAST majority of people you'd ask would agree that certain acts are good and certain acts are evil, and most of Chaos' acts very VERY clearly fall on the latter category.

 Smacks wrote:
Actually there was a great short story in the back of the 2nd edition wargear book about a Chaos lord (Brother Captain Karlsen). It is actually one of my favorite stories from all of 40k. I wouldn't say the chaos lord is portrayed as a 'good guy', but he is still interesting to follow. The story is mainly about him meditating (more interesting than it sounds). Because he is 10,000 years old, he has a kind of mental map system for organizing his memories. The story follows him through some of his memories for 10,000 years, as he decides what he wants to keep. I certainly recommend reading that if you can find it.

That's a great story. I love so much of the older fluff. It's so much more bleak than the modern tuff which is far more focused on glamorizing the setting's armies of toy soldiers rather than exploring the slow decline of a galaxy gone to hell.

That one story "gets" Chaos Marines far better than most Black Library stuff.

 fallinq wrote:


I think a big part of the disagreement here is over the meaning of "good guys." In 40k, the "good guys" are antiheroes or the lesser evil more often than not. If you're saying that a Chaos Space Marine isn't going to be some angelic, altruistic, goody two shoes then yes, I agree with you! But I do think that there are Chaos worshippers and even daemonic forces that could very easily be the lesser evil to some genocidal witch burning Redemptionist, or being enslaved to the Dark Eldar.

Ask yourself this question: who would you really, honestly, rather take your chances with, a fanatical Monodominant Inquisitor with paranoia and rage issues, or Ahzek Ahriman? Personally, I'd go with Ahriman. Yeah, he might do something bad to me, but only if it furthered his own ends. I'd just as likely get to go free. He's never been shown to be pointlessly sadistic. But all you Imperial loyalists have fun in the torture chamber and being burnt alive afterwards, because you scratched your nose in a way that indicated that you might possibly be in league with dark forces, so we have to squeeze you for information before watching you die in agony just to be sure.

Yes +1

I also think that it has to do with if you think CSM are capable of good acts. There is a small tyranid fleet approaching a planet that has no chance of defending itself. Would CSM come to defend it? I mean sure they would install themselves as rulers of said planet after the defense but is life under a CSM warlord worse than certain painful death? I think with the range of CSM out there(they are more diverse than any other group) you would find some that are indeed capable of performing acts of good.

genocidal witch burning Redemptionist

That witch-burning Redemptionist is doing the work of the God-Emperor. That Redemptionist is a patriot! That Redemptionist is a hero!

If people didn't want to be purged by a genocidal, witch-burning Redemptionist, then they should have chosen to be born in line with the Sacred Human Form, as set down by the God-Emperor, and avoided practicing witch-craft... as set down by the God-Emperor. These heretics have only themselves to blame.

 Exergy wrote:
[qu
Yes +1

I also think that it has to do with if you think CSM are capable of good acts. There is a small tyranid fleet approaching a planet that has no chance of defending itself. Would CSM come to defend it? I mean sure they would install themselves as rulers of said planet after the defense but is life under a CSM warlord worse than certain painful death? I think with the range of CSM out there(they are more diverse than any other group) you would find some that are indeed capable of performing acts of good.

Saving a planet so you can conquer it for yourself isn't an "act of (moral) good" as defined by what most people would call "morally good". It's at best a neutral act.

It can be considered an act of overall objectivist good in that overall production is conserved, but from a moral standpoint, it's neutral at best. True moral good by most peoples' standards involve helping out while expecting nothing (or at least, less) in return.

 fallinq wrote:
Ask yourself this question: who would you really, honestly, rather take your chances with, a fanatical Monodominant Inquisitor with paranoia and rage issues, or Ahzek Ahriman?

Neither one, they're both horrible people who I would never want to deal with .

If I had to choose from some kind of cruel choice, the worst case scenarios for both are the same-- my mind being forcibly ripped open by psychic powers, leaving me a shattered shell of a human being, which is then turned in to a weapon to use against their enemies.

So I can't look at the worst case scenario there.

In comparison, the best case scenario for the inquisitor is that he wipes my memory of meeting him and then shuffles me back in to the Imperial bureaucracy. Best case scenario with Ahriman would involve me being killed before he could get to the worst case scenario.

I'd take my chances with the Inquisitor.

One special snowflake planet does not make me change my mind when the overwhelming majority of examples say otherwise.

Not really a snowflake but in 40k nothing is even close to ideal.

I think thier some fluff about the planets on the outer edge of the eye of terror being just giant refugee camps full of mutants and people who would be servitored for petty crimes.

There really aren't many good examples because games workshop has neglected the lost and the damned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

That isn't how that works. Those psykers who power the Astronomican might last years at their task, others only days, but it's a leaching process, not a torturous one. The thousand a day who are fed to the God-Emperor are for other purposes than the Astronomican.

Octavia sees the astronimicon as a beam of light with the souls sacrificed screaming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Tau. I'll be a Gue'la farmer, thanks.

and a perfect sacrifice or target for inquisitor review. I never understood why anyone would want to be a slave to soulles talking fish.

that never happens

Plenty of honorable deaths, you haven't be read the right books. They usually have great last words "for the Emperor" "Death to the false Emperor" "From Iron co-meth Iron and may it for ever be so".

Plenty of honorable deaths, you haven't be read the right books. They usually have great last words "for the Emperor" "Death to the false Emperor" "From Iron co-meth Iron and may it for ever be so".

Those are just deaths. They are less to the galaxy than a pebble tossed into an ocean.

This is a dystopian setting... none of those deaths matter, or accomplish anything of permanent good, or even gain.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

The Tau. I'll be a Gue'la farmer, thanks.

and a perfect sacrifice or target for inquisitor review. I never understood why anyone would want to be a slave to soulles talking fish.

They're camels, not fish. Look at their feet. Look at their necks. Notice the three big, wide toes and lack of gills? Not to mention the whole pheromone thing. Pheromones don't work so great under water. Not fish.

 Psienesis wrote:

Plenty of honorable deaths, you haven't be read the right books. They usually have great last words "for the Emperor" "Death to the false Emperor" "From Iron co-meth Iron and may it for ever be so".

Those are just deaths. They are less to the galaxy than a pebble tossed into an ocean.

This is a dystopian setting... none of those deaths matter, or accomplish anything of permanent good, or even gain.

I don't know, I don't think a death has to matter to be honourable, it just has to not be experienced while fleeing or begging to be spared.

Of course, the whole idea of an 'honourable' death is a bit pointless really. Death is death. The Nightbringer comes for us all in the end.

Hel is for farmers, not sinners. Only the war-dead go to Valhalla or Odin's Hall.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Good is a point of view.

Humans eat delicious grox meat for sustenance. From the point of view of the grox the human is evil. From the point of view of the human the grox is food.

Chaos gods eat delicious human souls for sustenance. From the point of view of the human the Chaos gods are evil. From the point of view of the Chaos gods the human is food.

The Emperor also eats delicious human souls for sustenance. Does this not make him evil as well?

This is a universe where the strong feed on the weak. Mercy is a weakness and weakness is punished by death.

Chaos is inimical to the continuing existence of the Imperium. The Imperium is inimical to the continuing existence of the Chaos gods. Both will do what is necessary to survive. And both are absolutely horrible to the vast majority of their people. In a setting like this killing an innocent may be the nicest thing you could do for them.

This viewpoint woefully ignores what is ACTUALLY happening in the 40k setting.

For instance, while humans might be evil from the Grox's point of view, that doesn't change the fact that the chapter master of the Crimson Fists once carried a mother and his child on his back to safety during an Orc Waagh. Again, good is relative, but that is an action that the vast majority of people in both today's world and the 40th Millenium (or at least, the perspective we're given of it) would say is good. (also, it's arguable whether or not nonsentient beings like Grox even consider what's good and what's evil in the first place)

The Chaos Gods, meanwhile, have an official short story where they keep re-resurrecting a CHaos Space Marine and force him to hunt down the descendants of another Space Marine due to an oath he swore long ago. That has NOTHING to do with eating souls. The poor Chaos Marine literally begs the CHaos Gods every time he returns with the head of his latest kill to free him from his oath and finally let him die, and they never do. One day he actually got to see the chaos gods as he offered up his latest kill. AND THEY WERE LAUGHING AT HIM.

Of course they were laughing at him. Because that kind of stuff is freaking hilarious to a Chaos god.

The problem is that you are judging the Chaos gods by the morals of man. But they aren't men - they are gods. You are like the buzzing of flies to them! Think of all the "injustices" perpetrated by your immune system on the poor helpless microorganisms just trying to survive in your body. Do you care? Should you?

In all honesty I have always viewed Chaos and the Imperium as being on the same level of evil.

Chaos is personal freedom taken to far.

The Imperium is the promise of safety taken to far.

Both are really just the same amount of extreme on the opposite end of the spectrum. I like FW since stuff like the DKOK and Carchardons show just how screwed up the Imperium is/can be and made me see they are really just opposite evils.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Kantor did save a mother and child buuuuttttt

Carcharadons killed like more than a few million mothers and children when pacifying the Mantis Warriors.

The Inquisition destroys entire planets full of mothers and children.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also consider Chaos like the cenobites in the Hellraiser (just the first one.)

They don't really understand concepts like "good" or "evil" they really don't understand people in general. They are Eldritch Abominations, something that is truly impossible for the human mind to understand. Wouldn't it also be impossible for the Abomination to understand humans?

Chaos really ISN'T personal freedom, though. Because it's still ruled by warlords and tyrants and people who are just plain lucky.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Of course they were laughing at him. Because that kind of stuff is freaking hilarious to a Chaos god.

The problem is that you are judging the Chaos gods by the morals of man. But they aren't men - they are gods. You are like the buzzing of flies to them! Think of all the "injustices" perpetrated by your immune system on the poor helpless microorganisms just trying to survive in your body. Do you care? Should you?

Morality is relative. So I can judge the chaos gods by whatever the hell morals I want as long as I state which morals I am judging from.

And from the relative morality of the average man, the chaos gods are EVIL donkey-caves, as is pretty much the vast majority of Chaos with at best those approaching neutral morality and nary a good one in sight. Screw the Chaos Gods' idea of morality!

The original poster is clearly asking for "Chaos Space Marines as the good guys" as defined by mankind's moral viewpoint, anyways, not Chaos'. That said, it's rare as hell to see even devout followers of chaos refer to themselves as morally good even within their own idea of morality anyways. Not that it matters, because again, the OP clearly meant "as defined by the morality of your typical person".

 Melissia wrote:
Chaos really ISN'T personal freedom, though. Because it's still ruled by warlords and tyrants and people who are just plain lucky.

Chaos isn't a place or thing that can be truly controlled or ruled. The reason so many SM and humans fall to chaos is the fact that even a sliver of personal freedom is enough for them to burn a thousand worlds.
Chaos is "free" the same way the Imperium is "safe." That is what was in mind when these things were created and what they work to achieve.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for the luck thing:

1. Khorne doesn't select his champions at random it is for their victories.
2. Tzeench plans so meticulously nothing is ever "lucky" or random about his followers.
3. Nurgle rewards those who spread his plague.
4. On second thought you might be right about slaanesh...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But the Imperium is by no standards good or even a lesser evil. So many people slave and toil away for the Imperial war machine it is unfathomable. Basic human freedoms, rights and even emotions have been systematically and meticulously stripped away in many parts of the Imperium. Mankind is forced to worship at the altar of someone who never even wanted to be worshiped. The inquisition are supposed to be the guardians of humanity but instead they squander there power and resources on personal agendas and infighting (some not all.) Also people overlook (as does GW) just how ruthless and cruel some SM chapters are. Take out the chapter names of any Carcharadons story and replace it with "world Eaters' and see if you see a difference. The Chaos gods and Imperium are equal in how messed up they are.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Chaos really ISN'T personal freedom, though. Because it's still ruled by warlords and tyrants and people who are just plain lucky.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
But the Imperium is by no standards good or even a lesser evil. So many people slave and toil away for the Imperial war machine it is unfathomable. Basic human freedoms, rights and even emotions have been systematically and meticulously stripped away in many parts of the Imperium. Mankind is forced to worship at the altar of someone who never even wanted to be worshiped. The inquisition are supposed to be the guardians of humanity but instead they squander there power and resources on personal agendas and infighting (some not all.) Also people overlook (as does GW) just how ruthless and cruel some SM chapters are. Take out the chapter names of any Carcharadons story and replace it with "world Eaters' and see if you see a difference. The Chaos gods and Imperium are equal in how messed up they are.

But for all the acts of atrocity in the Imperium, you have forces that counter act that and live for true honor and the common man. Space Wolves, Salamanders and Raven Guard all fight for the common Imperium and show up when their aid was unexpected to save normal citizens of the Imperium. Ultramarines and Imperial Fists are like that to a lesser extent, they are too busy being guardians to the Imperium to really do what those three other chapters do.

I am not trying to make a case that the Imperium is good but it at least has some factions that fight for honor and good to try and restore the Imperium to it's former glory, regardless how fruitless the task really is. How often do you seen that in Chaos stories? When have they liberated a planet for the sake of bringing the people freedom? They haven't, they liberate them to make alters for their patron gods.

Honestly, I would like to see that kind of side to Chaos, to make it a real actual opposite to the Imperium instead of being this grotesque bid for power and selfish motives. It's usually why I like the Traitor Legions than actual CSM.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
Chaos isn't a place or thing that can be truly controlled or ruled.

Chaos society, however, is a place that is usually defined by it being ruled by a tyrant.

If you're a commoner in a Chaos-controlled world, chances are you have less freedom than a commoner in an Imperial world.

Well the commoners on most chaos world's aren't even aware of chaos, much less followers. I am referring to chaos worshippers and champions. Most are slaves to darkness but they end up trading their souls for a sliver of freedom. Also again chaos is not structured into things like "societies" or anything that can be fully understood by humans.

But the Imperium is by no standards good or even a lesser evil. So many people slave and toil away for the Imperial war machine it is unfathomable. Basic human freedoms, rights and even emotions have been systematically and meticulously stripped away in many parts of the Imperium. Mankind is forced to worship at the altar of someone who never even wanted to be worshiped. The inquisition are supposed to be the guardians of humanity but instead they squander there power and resources on personal agendas and infighting (some not all.) Also people overlook (as does GW) just how ruthless and cruel some SM chapters are. Take out the chapter names of any Carcharadons story and replace it with "world Eaters' and see if you see a difference. The Chaos gods and Imperium are equal in how messed up they are.

The Imperium isn't grim because things suck by choice and could be fine if a sensible person came along. That sensible person wouldn't survive fifty seconds of the reality. The Imperium is grim because every single s*** decision, every single sacrifice, every single death, every single man woman and child suffering a s*** life in the worst conditions imaginable, is the absolute best that can be done. It is a study of the worst happening to everyone and what part of your humanity must be sacrificed today just to stand a chance of survival, and all it asks is whether or not it would have perhaps been better to die.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I am referring to chaos worshippers

So was I.

The average worshiper of Chaos is nothing more than fodder, chaff to be thrown away by the champions.

They don't have freedom. They are slaves.

Hell, even the champions are slaves.

That is the paradox of Chaos.

The Imperium is so immoral because of their desire for safety.

How safe is it?

Almost all chaos servants want a sliver of freedom and some are lucky to at least be provided with the illusion of it. No one following chaos is truly free. No one who serves the Imperium is truly safe.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for the luck thing:

1. Khorne doesn't select his champions at random it is for their victories.
2. Tzeench plans so meticulously nothing is ever "lucky" or random about his followers.
3. Nurgle rewards those who spread his plague.
4. On second thought you might be right about slaanesh...

While the Chaos Gods reward achievements and merit more often than a completely chaotic entity would, they are still VERY fickle and "fickle" is a term used to describe them ALL THE TIME in the fluff. There are many who were awarded daemon princedom and many others reduced to spawn and many others ignored or listened to seemingly on a whim by the chaos gods.

As for Tzeentch, he does plan meticulously but whether or not there's a good place for YOU in that plan is partially down to luck. It's explicitly stated that all things are up in the air with Tzeentch, although it does disclaim that "good pawns tend to be better protected than others.". Note, however, the word TEND. It is VERY explicit that while merit and achievement can increase your odds of success as a chaos champion, luck plays a HUGE role thanks to the "fickle nature" of the gods. They're CHAOS gods for a reason (but again, still more orderly and reward merit more than a 100% chaotic entity would).

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
In all honesty I have always viewed Chaos and the Imperium as being on the same level of evil.

Chaos is personal freedom taken to far.

The Imperium is the promise of safety taken to far.

Both are really just the same amount of extreme on the opposite end of the spectrum. I like FW since stuff like the DKOK and Carchardons show just how screwed up the Imperium is/can be and made me see they are really just opposite evils.

The topic is "Chaos Marines as the good guys?" A tangent to that point that keeps coming up is "Imperium as the good guys?"

The major difference is that for the Imperium, the answer is SOMETIMES "Yes".

Salamanders, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Crimson Fists, etc, have all done things that many typical people would refer to as good.

Chaos at BEST gets "pet the dog" moments, and even those are rare as hell.

So yes, the Imperium DOES have bad inquisitors that in-fight a lot, but even you said "some" of them. Because many of them DON'T and are very nice people (or at least, trying their damndest to be nice in a galaxy that can force their hand)

The Imperium DOES have jerks like Marines Malevolent and Carcharodons (although LOYAL Imperial citizens are much better off with a Carcharodon than a World Eater. Forge World EXPLICITLY brings up a scenario where a rogue trader is saved by them and all they ask was for some supplies in return. Good luck getting that from World Eaters). It also has GOOD Marines that care about people like Salamanders, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels.

The Imperium does have cold regiments like Death Corps of Krieg. It also has many noble regiments honestly trying to atone or help the Imperium like the Cadians and the Vostroyan First Born. I honestly wouldn't call the Death Korps THAT evil either. They're just neutral more than anything, but they at least are self-less and honestly trying to atone, even if they get a bit too knight templar about it when judging others, which is much more than you can say for Chaos followers.

Chaos meanwhile has.... no one, really. Nicest faction I can think of is the Blood Gorgans and even they're a crazy bunch of psychos into human sacrifice, though they at least don't rule over their worlds like tyrants (unlike... well.... EVERY other Chaos Follower). Of course, absence of evil isn't really good by itself. They don't rule over their worlds in general, really (and instead just request a tithe in exchange for defense, which is really a neutral act).

I meant pre heresy World Eaters for the thing.

I have always viewed the more "sympathetic" stuff to kinda be a drop in an ocean of suffering and torment Imperium wise. I also cringe a bit at some of the more "heroic" SM stories, since they come off as inconsistent in the grand scheme of how horrible the Imperium is. Carcharadons are my favorite chapter though...

But yeah Choas is ubelievably immoral, as is the Imperium. Chaos is depicted as more selfish (which it can be) but the Imperium's idea of selflessness is blowing up a populated planet so the planet next to it can continue to toil and be oppressed.

Overall it's very lose-lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to be clear I don't think Choas are shining knights in armor. They're all deranged selfish people who let personal desire get the best of them and are now slaves to deathless nightmare entities.

Like I said lose-lose.

 Envihon wrote:
This is why I think there should be 3 Space Marine codicies: Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines and Renegade Space Marines because the variety of flavors each comes with. Even if the Renegade codex was a small one like the Inquisitorial and SoB codices, it would go a long way to establish the differences. Honestly, I would also put the Iron Warriors, Night Lords and Alpha Legion in the Renegade codex too.

I would buy that Renegades codex in a heartbeat, even if I had no intention of building an actual army of them (though the more I hear about them, the more I like them...).

Make it happen, GW!


Also, in reply to the OP, I love the idea of exploring CSM as "good" guys, or at least, less "overtly mustache-twirling-cliche evil" guys. Chaos is such an interesting faction, with Tzeentch my favorite god of all, that I'd love to read stories about Tzeentchian marines who, through a grand scheme of Tzeentch that spans thousands of years, go on a campaign of "winning the hearts and minds" of loyalists across the galaxy, or something to that effect. Or, as others have said, simply exploring the grey areas of both the CSM and SM factions in a "Game of Thrones" style where neither the CSMs or the SMs/Imperials in your story are the clear-cut good guys. Introduce some moral dilemmas and have every choice that either side makes have both a good and bad, or simply neutral, outcome and you'll be off to a good start!

Well you either die as a villain or live long enough to become a hero

I don't know if it has been mentioned yet but Gav Thorpe wrote some short stories awhile back about the renegade third company of the Avenging Sons chapter of space marines. Their fall resulted from the pragmatic, disillusioned actions of their commander, Captain Gessart. After seeing so many lives wasted due to incompetence and the unfeeling orders of the administratum during a bad campaign, he withdrew his company just before a huge demon invasion. He saved his men from destruction but the planet fell. He killed his dissenting Chaplain and others disloyal to Gessart (Gav Thorpe, I'm convinced, has something against Chaplains!).

Like all renegade stories, it starts off with good intentions. Gessart was just an officer trying to save his company from certain annihilation. However, his desperate attempts to flee the Imperium and hide in the Warp, led to their first steps into Chaos. Well, it began with the librarian accepting "assistance" from a warp entity to navigate the warp. That's how it all starts I guess.

The renegade Avenging Sons are featured in the last book of the Path of the Eldar series. It's cool seeing space marines being even more treacherous than Eldar corsairs.

 themonk wrote:

Like all renegade stories, it starts off with good intentions. Gessart was just an officer trying to save his company from certain annihilation. However, his desperate attempts to flee the Imperium and hide in the Warp, led to their first steps into Chaos. Well, it began with the librarian accepting "assistance" from a warp entity to navigate the warp. That's how it all starts I guess.

Yep, again, it's possible for Chaos followers to START as some variant of what most people would accept as "good guys", but the end result is always bad (again, as defined by what most people would call "bad" or "evil").

(Just to re-iterate, there are even explicit statements in the fluff that spell this out)

Personally I'd love if there were actual Chaos "good guys" that could be considered "good" by relative standards of most people given the relative situation (and that also had the favor of the gods, showing that even Chaos gods can be genuinely "good" every once in a while, again as defined by what most people would call "good". Non-Nurgle aligned preferably since sometimes rarely he at least already manages to reach a kinda grey area, but only kinda). Unfortunately, if such a thing is possible, there's yet to be an example in the fluff about it (this, along with those statements, leads me to believe that such a thing might not be possible, which is really lame if true)

It is the nature of Chaos to corrupt, mutate and destroy. The Ruinous Powers are a fickle and capricious lot.

there's yet to be an example in the fluff about it

In the Bastion Wars the Blood Gorgans could be seen as good guys.

I honestly feel like Chaos Space marines are all pretty much evil, but to different degrees. Nurgle marines have become so numb to everything at this point that they just do anything that might remind them of their previous mortal lives. Tzeentch just operates for the sake of change and seems like the least evil to me (still pretty evil but he just wants change, not pain, suffering or war. Khorne worshipers can't even think properly anymore due to their blessings and can be painted as tragic villains. Slaanesh is to me the most evil of all of them. All of their followers gave into him for pleasure, not to spare themselves a horrible death, make change, or for some just survive the next battle. Slaaneshi followers seem ridiculously evil, with absolutely no sympathetic qualities.

The Sons of Malice are probably the closest thing to a "good" CSM chapter, although Malal was unfortunately retconned, so I guess they're not entirely CHAOS Space Marines. They're pretty much agnostic marines.

 Sleix wrote:
The Sons of Malice are probably the closest thing to a "good" CSM chapter, although Malal was unfortunately retconned, so I guess they're not entirely CHAOS Space Marines. They're pretty much agnostic marines.

Considering the huge amount of slaves from every race that they sacrifice to Malice, including humans, I wouldn't really say the Sons of Malice are good...

(really, if anything, Malice is like Khorne but worse)

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Sleix wrote:
The Sons of Malice are probably the closest thing to a "good" CSM chapter, although Malal was unfortunately retconned, so I guess they're not entirely CHAOS Space Marines. They're pretty much agnostic marines.

Considering the huge amount of slaves from every race that they sacrifice to Malice, including humans, I wouldn't really say the Sons of Malice are good...

(really, if anything, Malice is like Khorne but worse)

And not just any run-of-the-mill sacrifice where at least you'd get some fresh air. Don't they eat their captives alive on a Space Hulk somewhere?

I'd hesitate to call them "good" by any means, even by the standards of 40K morality. They're probably the ultimate expression of Chaos: turning on itself just because and screw the plans and goals of the other Chaos gods. You want Chaos? Well, here it is!

Renegade marines can be good. The Soul Drinkers do as much good as they can. Actively chaos worshipping marines (except for pre heresy Word Bearers. They were basically a normal religion worshipping chaos as a pantheon. Not much depraved gak to be found there) are guys who will kill for nothing on a massive scale literally to venerate murder itself (in recent fluff completely without care for honor) ,spread disease, be dicks for unseeable or contrived reasons, or are utterly self centered, drug addicts, with genitalia in unfortunate places. Or in the case of the most evil, all the above.

I've gotten to thinking about this recently after reading some BL stuff, honestly I could see Chaos as the good guys in the universe. Not necessarily the fallen space marines, but maybe more so non-imperial guard armies.

The imperium is basically built on science and atheistic beliefs, and chaos worships gods. Its kind of like the pagan religions vs. the catholic inquisition.

I don't think you have to look far into history to understand the inquisition wasn't a bunch of swell folks doing God's work.

I think of it kind of like the native americans who fought against the colonization of america to defend their way of life. Were they bad?

So I think you could write some compelling fan fiction based off of that idea. They would most likely be followers of Tzeentch as the other chaos gods aren't really relying on any positive force within human nature.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Renegade marines can be good. The Soul Drinkers do as much good as they can. Actively chaos worshipping marines (except for pre heresy Word Bearers. They were basically a normal religion worshipping chaos as a pantheon. Not much depraved gak to be found there) are guys who will kill for nothing on a massive scale literally to venerate murder itself (in recent fluff completely without care for honor) ,spread disease, be dicks for unseeable or contrived reasons, or are utterly self centered, drug addicts, with genitalia in unfortunate places. Or in the case of the most evil, all the above.

Yea, Renegate Marines that don't turn to Chaos can be good in a sense (the Soul Eaters were physically tainted by it, but never sold their souls to it and opposed it to the end). Examples are the Soul Drinkers, the Relictors (who, as of the latest IA book, are implied to still be fighting Chaos and have some allies in the Inquisition despite being declared traitors), and the Knights of Blood (declared renegade for not caring too much about civilian lives, but still loyal to the Imperium and help where they can while keeping their distance)

Of course, they aren't 100% shiny (knights of blood don't care about civilian casualties, and Relictors attacked Inquisition outposts for relics) but they can at least be good in some ways.

Chaos Marines though.... not really. Maaaaaybe the Blood Gorgans if you overlook the whole ritual sacrificing things they do (since they do it for chaos power for other goals as opposed to just for kicks) but even that's a stretch.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Renegade marines can be good. The Soul Drinkers do as much good as they can. Actively chaos worshipping marines (except for pre heresy Word Bearers. They were basically a normal religion worshipping chaos as a pantheon. Not much depraved gak to be found there) are guys who will kill for nothing on a massive scale literally to venerate murder itself (in recent fluff completely without care for honor) ,spread disease, be dicks for unseeable or contrived reasons, or are utterly self centered, drug addicts, with genitalia in unfortunate places. Or in the case of the most evil, all the above.

Yea, Renegate Marines that don't turn to Chaos can be good in a sense (the Soul Eaters were physically tainted by it, but never sold their souls to it and opposed it to the end). Examples are the Soul Drinkers, the Relictors (who, as of the latest IA book, are implied to still be fighting Chaos and have some allies in the Inquisition despite being declared traitors), and the Knights of Blood (declared renegade for not caring too much about civilian lives, but still loyal to the Imperium and help where they can while keeping their distance)

Of course, they aren't 100% shiny (knights of blood don't care about civilian casualties, and Relictors attacked Inquisition outposts for relics) but they can at least be good in some ways.

Chaos Marines though.... not really. Maaaaaybe the Blood Gorgans if you overlook the whole ritual sacrificing things they do (since they do it for chaos power for other goals as opposed to just for kicks) but even that's a stretch.

Hmmm, while Khornate followers are often portrayed as pure bloodthirsty maniacs, perhaps they could be portrayed as some sort of honorable freedom fighters?

I remember ADB writing about Angron finding freedom the only reason worth fighting for and considering Empy a tyrant, like his Nucerian enslavers.

Not sure if this has been said yet or alluded to but Failbaddon could as easily be called the "Liberator" as opposed to "Despoiler", that is just the Imperiums view.

He basically wants to bring the greatest tyrannical regime Humanity has ever endured to an end.

NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Not sure if this has been said yet or alluded to but Failbaddon could as easily be called the "Liberator" as opposed to "Despoiler", that is just the Imperiums view.

He basically wants to bring the greatest tyrannical regime Humanity has ever endured to an end.

But to replace it with what? Certainly would be something even worse.

Everyone always presents their crusades in the best possible light....or in Abaddon's case, best possible black.

Talon of Horus does a really good job of making the Black Legion seem like the good guys, e.g. taking back their birthright. Also. Alpha Legion turned to prevent the triumph of chaos, not because they were traitorous. 1K Sons were victims of Horus' plot and never officially turned traitor. Lots of scope for chaos good guys.

1K Sons were victims of Horus' plot and never officially turned traitor. Lots of scope for chaos good guys.

Their Primarch did, and they went with him.

 Psienesis wrote:

1K Sons were victims of Horus' plot and never officially turned traitor. Lots of scope for chaos good guys.

Their Primarch did, and they went with him.

They turned traitor after the Imperium attacked& betrayed them, In order to survive.
Russ was pretty eager to follow Horus' false orders.

They turned traitor after the Imperium attacked& betrayed them, In order to survive.
Russ was pretty eager to follow Horus' false orders.

And? That does not make the Thousand Sons non-traitors.

 Psienesis wrote:

They turned traitor after the Imperium attacked& betrayed them, In order to survive.
Russ was pretty eager to follow Horus' false orders.

And? That does not make the Thousand Sons non-traitors.

And the Wolves following orders of a traitor?

The Space Wolves are plenty stupid, let's not mistake that, but at the time Horus was still the Warmaster and, so far as Russ knew, loyal to the Emperor.

Russ, being Not-The-Warmaster, was expected to follow the orders of the Warmaster, and, because Russ is a good soldier, does exactly what he's told.

Gullible? Possibly. Rather too eager to kill the 1KS rather than arrest Magnus? Yes... but, then again, it's Russ. "Attack dog" is what he is. A traitor? No, not with what he knew when he knew it. The Emperor told him to go get Magnus, Horus spoke with the Emperor's authority (as far as Russ knew), and instead told Russ to go destroy the 1KS, which would not be the first time (we are told) that the Rout had been used for such a purpose.

Russ was nothing more than an unwitting dupe.

The Purge seem like pretty ok dudes. They just want to exterminate all life. Given the crapsack universe that is 40k that might be a blessing.

 megatombuscus wrote:
burn the heretic

KILL THE MUTANT, PURGE THE UNCLEAN

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Talon of Horus does a really good job of making the Black Legion seem like the good guys, e.g. taking back their birthright. Also. Alpha Legion turned to prevent the triumph of chaos, not because they were traitorous. 1K Sons were victims of Horus' plot and never officially turned traitor. Lots of scope for chaos good guys.

Claiming your birth right doesn't make you a good guy. It just means you're taking what's rightfully yours. That's a neutral alignment action at best, even if a sympathizable one. So what the Talon of Horus did was make them sympathizable, not "good guys"

The Alpha Legion betrayed the Cabal too. So we don't know if they really did turn to prevent the triumph of Chaos or not. Hell, another short story showed the Alpha Legion betrayed Alpharius. Or Omegon. Or possibly both, for crying out loud. Yet are still betraying Horus too (see that Alpha Legion vs Mechanicus and Loyalist Iron Warriors battle in Forge World's third HH book). Honestly we don't know what the hell they're doing in general.

1k sons officially turned traitor when Magnus sold the legion to Tzeentch to save Prospero. Up until then, he resisted and would rather have his legion destroyed, in which case, it's arguable that up until then, he wasn't a traitor. After he sold the legion to Tzeentch to save Prospero though and from then on served him, yea, that's what traitors do. Serve the other team to hurt their original team. On purpose.

He had the option to NOT sell his soul to Tzeentch and had the option to just let his legion and Prospero be destroyed, and thus not a traitor. He decided in the end he'd rather save the knowledge left in Prospero. This is pretty much explicitly stated.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Space Wolves are plenty stupid, let's not mistake that, but at the time Horus was still the Warmaster and, so far as Russ knew, loyal to the Emperor.

Russ, being Not-The-Warmaster, was expected to follow the orders of the Warmaster, and, because Russ is a good soldier, does exactly what he's told.

Gullible? Possibly. Rather too eager to kill the 1KS rather than arrest Magnus? Yes... but, then again, it's Russ. "Attack dog" is what he is. A traitor? No, not with what he knew when he knew it. The Emperor told him to go get Magnus, Horus spoke with the Emperor's authority (as far as Russ knew), and instead told Russ to go destroy the 1KS, which would not be the first time (we are told) that the Rout had been used for such a purpose.

Russ was nothing more than an unwitting dupe.

He's just culpable as Magnus regarding the edict of Nikea, Let's face it.
Or you take his willy nilly "Draw our ancient furry viking powers from Fenris" bull as truth.

Besides they did not betray if they were attacked first, How could you prove your loyalty to a faction that wants you dead... Just let them kill you?
No, They weren't traitors and aren't traitors, The Imperium(technically Horus) pushed them to do as they've done.

Khonsu wrote:
Besides they did not betray if they were attacked first, How could you prove your loyalty to a faction that wants you dead... Just let them kill you?

Yes - you let them kill you. A loyal servant lays down his life if his master turns on him.

ADB is really the only author able to make CSM seem like real people or mildly sympathetic. That being said, he also has no qualms about showing what they really are.

And that's the problem with "good" CSM's. You can rationalize their motives and make them as complex as you like, but at the end of the day they still run around mass murdering/enslaving/brutalizing people.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
Besides they did not betray if they were attacked first, How could you prove your loyalty to a faction that wants you dead... Just let them kill you?

Yes - you let them kill you. A loyal servant lays down his life if his master turns on him.

If you lose your life you lost, Principles are of no use to a dead man.
People really like to pretend they're Samurais online.

Khonsu wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
Besides they did not betray if they were attacked first, How could you prove your loyalty to a faction that wants you dead... Just let them kill you?

Yes - you let them kill you. A loyal servant lays down his life if his master turns on him.

If you lose your life you lost, Principles are of no use to a dead man.
People really like to pretend they're Samurais online.

If your master tries to kill you for no good reason then at that point you may determine that he is no longer deserving of your loyalty. It doesn't make you any less of a traitor though.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Khonsu wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
Besides they did not betray if they were attacked first, How could you prove your loyalty to a faction that wants you dead... Just let them kill you?

Yes - you let them kill you. A loyal servant lays down his life if his master turns on him.

If you lose your life you lost, Principles are of no use to a dead man.
People really like to pretend they're Samurais online.

If your master tries to kill you for no good reason then at that point you may determine that he is no longer deserving of your loyalty. It doesn't make you any less of a traitor though.

It makes him a traitor, No master has a right to claim his servant's lives for nothing, Masters are not above betrayal.
They were the ones betrayed, Whether Horus used subterfuge to misdirect Rus, In reality the Wolves didn't pause for a second to question their orders, Russ did not try to use common sense as typical from a Brute Barbarian piece of trash, Undeserving of any dignity or respect, Took him but a second to forget Magnus was his brother, He didn't even notice Magnus did not appear until the end, And did not Lead his men, Let's ignore the fact Tzeentch offered Magnus to destroy the entire Wolfy Wolf wolf Fleet of Wolfdom in warp travel and he declined, They were betrayed, Magnus was wrong in acting like a Jackass and ignoring the Emperor's orders but the Emperor was vague and Magnus was trying to save the Imperium from Horus' treachery, Too bad the Emperor is a buffoon and he ignored Magnus' message completely and Sent Leman Wuss to take care of him.
And again Russ ignored the edict of Nikea himself, Let's forgo the entire dumbass terminology debate, The Wolves had psykers and used them.
Just like Kharn once said, I've got no idea why these Fools dub themselves Wolves when they are but simple mutts and mongrels.

I love the scenes that come after with Thousand Sons obliterating the Wolves prior to Russ' coming though.

Laying down his life and dying rather than being a traitor is exactly what Magnus initially did, remember? It was only at the very end that he realized he couldn't bear to see Prospero's knowledge lost so he finally stepped out to battle Russ and then gave himself up to Tzeentch.

So even Magnus at least initially would agree that NOT laying down his life would have been an act of betrayal. He's changed his mind since then, I believe. Not sure.

If his legion had heard his word they'd just wait there without fighting back and be slaughtered by the Wolves, He'd risk his most beloved sons to prove he is not a traitor.
Another proof that he was loyal.

 Sleix wrote:
The Sons of Malice are probably the closest thing to a "good" CSM chapter, although Malal was unfortunately retconned, so I guess they're not entirely CHAOS Space Marines. They're pretty much agnostic marines.

The Sons of Malice were created after the Malal retcon. Hence why the daemon patron of the Sons of Malice is Malice, not Malal.

Khonsu wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Khonsu wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
Besides they did not betray if they were attacked first, How could you prove your loyalty to a faction that wants you dead... Just let them kill you?

Yes - you let them kill you. A loyal servant lays down his life if his master turns on him.

If you lose your life you lost, Principles are of no use to a dead man.
People really like to pretend they're Samurais online.

If your master tries to kill you for no good reason then at that point you may determine that he is no longer deserving of your loyalty. It doesn't make you any less of a traitor though.

It makes him a traitor, No master has a right to claim his servant's lives for nothing, Masters are not above betrayal.

A master cannot betray his servants because he owes them no loyalty. This is not a two way street. The master commands and a loyal servant obeys without question. Rebelling against an evil master is rebellion nonetheless.

Whats wrong with rebellion?

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Whats wrong with rebellion?

Nothing wrong with rebellion. I think its the whole "sacrifice millions to dark entities" thing that makes them bad.

You make me want to write a book where you are following a space marine for a while, and it is only after the first couple of chapters do you realize he is a CSM.

My first exposure to Chaos was from Micheal Moorcock's Elric series in which the multiverse is the scene of war between chaos and law, but chaos is not evil and law is not good.
The chaos Gods might try and kill you on Monday then save your life and give you some cake on Wednesday. Chaos is in constant change, but doesn't really progress, similarly Law can be harsh and rigid.

In 40k my CSM chapter are 'The angels of Liberation' a Tzeentch-Slaanesh leaning force intent on freeing people from the slave like conditions of being an Imperial subject. White, silver and pastels are the colours with a bit of an angel theme thrown in. Yes, some chaos forces are bloodthirsty khornate skull collectors, some are not. There must be variety to me or it is not Chaos, it is just predictable evil.

Chaos CAN'T be the good guys for the same reason the Imperium of man can't be.

There AREN'T ANY GOOD GUYS in the 40k galaxy.
There are bad guys, and there are worse guys, and there are the ones you hope don't capture you alive (because dead would be better).

It's a nth power nihilistic distopia, ramped up to 11.

 chromedog wrote:
Chaos CAN'T be the good guys for the same reason the Imperium of man can't be.

There AREN'T ANY GOOD GUYS in the 40k galaxy.
There are bad guys, and there are worse guys, and there are the ones you hope don't capture you alive (because dead would be better).

It's a nth power nihilistic distopia, ramped up to 11.

Sould Drinkers thought they were the good guys, the Celestial Lions were good guys, but they talked back to the inquisition

One thing; not all CSM once held allegiance to the Imperium, some where created normally. These were children born in the eye to heretic parents. From their first breath they've had to fight to survive, been tortured unendingly through the process of creation, had memories of the Imperium implanted into them and thrown into the front lines, essentially an ultra-grimdark child soldier who could rip a modern tank apart. When it first meets the Imperium, they will react with hatred and attack it if his programming doesn't kick in first, calling him a traitor and heretic for decisions he never made. The poor kid never had a choice about his allegiance, something the Imperium will never acknowledge.

Thread is being locked due to thread necromancy.


A similar thread is no issue of course