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Well you either die as a villain or live long enough to become a hero

I don't know if it has been mentioned yet but Gav Thorpe wrote some short stories awhile back about the renegade third company of the Avenging Sons chapter of space marines. Their fall resulted from the pragmatic, disillusioned actions of their commander, Captain Gessart. After seeing so many lives wasted due to incompetence and the unfeeling orders of the administratum during a bad campaign, he withdrew his company just before a huge demon invasion. He saved his men from destruction but the planet fell. He killed his dissenting Chaplain and others disloyal to Gessart (Gav Thorpe, I'm convinced, has something against Chaplains!).

Like all renegade stories, it starts off with good intentions. Gessart was just an officer trying to save his company from certain annihilation. However, his desperate attempts to flee the Imperium and hide in the Warp, led to their first steps into Chaos. Well, it began with the librarian accepting "assistance" from a warp entity to navigate the warp. That's how it all starts I guess.

The renegade Avenging Sons are featured in the last book of the Path of the Eldar series. It's cool seeing space marines being even more treacherous than Eldar corsairs.

 themonk wrote:

Like all renegade stories, it starts off with good intentions. Gessart was just an officer trying to save his company from certain annihilation. However, his desperate attempts to flee the Imperium and hide in the Warp, led to their first steps into Chaos. Well, it began with the librarian accepting "assistance" from a warp entity to navigate the warp. That's how it all starts I guess.

Yep, again, it's possible for Chaos followers to START as some variant of what most people would accept as "good guys", but the end result is always bad (again, as defined by what most people would call "bad" or "evil").

(Just to re-iterate, there are even explicit statements in the fluff that spell this out)

Personally I'd love if there were actual Chaos "good guys" that could be considered "good" by relative standards of most people given the relative situation (and that also had the favor of the gods, showing that even Chaos gods can be genuinely "good" every once in a while, again as defined by what most people would call "good". Non-Nurgle aligned preferably since sometimes rarely he at least already manages to reach a kinda grey area, but only kinda). Unfortunately, if such a thing is possible, there's yet to be an example in the fluff about it (this, along with those statements, leads me to believe that such a thing might not be possible, which is really lame if true)

It is the nature of Chaos to corrupt, mutate and destroy. The Ruinous Powers are a fickle and capricious lot.

there's yet to be an example in the fluff about it

In the Bastion Wars the Blood Gorgans could be seen as good guys.

I honestly feel like Chaos Space marines are all pretty much evil, but to different degrees. Nurgle marines have become so numb to everything at this point that they just do anything that might remind them of their previous mortal lives. Tzeentch just operates for the sake of change and seems like the least evil to me (still pretty evil but he just wants change, not pain, suffering or war. Khorne worshipers can't even think properly anymore due to their blessings and can be painted as tragic villains. Slaanesh is to me the most evil of all of them. All of their followers gave into him for pleasure, not to spare themselves a horrible death, make change, or for some just survive the next battle. Slaaneshi followers seem ridiculously evil, with absolutely no sympathetic qualities.

The Sons of Malice are probably the closest thing to a "good" CSM chapter, although Malal was unfortunately retconned, so I guess they're not entirely CHAOS Space Marines. They're pretty much agnostic marines.

 Sleix wrote:
The Sons of Malice are probably the closest thing to a "good" CSM chapter, although Malal was unfortunately retconned, so I guess they're not entirely CHAOS Space Marines. They're pretty much agnostic marines.

Considering the huge amount of slaves from every race that they sacrifice to Malice, including humans, I wouldn't really say the Sons of Malice are good...

(really, if anything, Malice is like Khorne but worse)

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Sleix wrote:
The Sons of Malice are probably the closest thing to a "good" CSM chapter, although Malal was unfortunately retconned, so I guess they're not entirely CHAOS Space Marines. They're pretty much agnostic marines.

Considering the huge amount of slaves from every race that they sacrifice to Malice, including humans, I wouldn't really say the Sons of Malice are good...

(really, if anything, Malice is like Khorne but worse)

And not just any run-of-the-mill sacrifice where at least you'd get some fresh air. Don't they eat their captives alive on a Space Hulk somewhere?

I'd hesitate to call them "good" by any means, even by the standards of 40K morality. They're probably the ultimate expression of Chaos: turning on itself just because and screw the plans and goals of the other Chaos gods. You want Chaos? Well, here it is!

Renegade marines can be good. The Soul Drinkers do as much good as they can. Actively chaos worshipping marines (except for pre heresy Word Bearers. They were basically a normal religion worshipping chaos as a pantheon. Not much depraved gak to be found there) are guys who will kill for nothing on a massive scale literally to venerate murder itself (in recent fluff completely without care for honor) ,spread disease, be dicks for unseeable or contrived reasons, or are utterly self centered, drug addicts, with genitalia in unfortunate places. Or in the case of the most evil, all the above.

I've gotten to thinking about this recently after reading some BL stuff, honestly I could see Chaos as the good guys in the universe. Not necessarily the fallen space marines, but maybe more so non-imperial guard armies.

The imperium is basically built on science and atheistic beliefs, and chaos worships gods. Its kind of like the pagan religions vs. the catholic inquisition.

I don't think you have to look far into history to understand the inquisition wasn't a bunch of swell folks doing God's work.

I think of it kind of like the native americans who fought against the colonization of america to defend their way of life. Were they bad?

So I think you could write some compelling fan fiction based off of that idea. They would most likely be followers of Tzeentch as the other chaos gods aren't really relying on any positive force within human nature.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Renegade marines can be good. The Soul Drinkers do as much good as they can. Actively chaos worshipping marines (except for pre heresy Word Bearers. They were basically a normal religion worshipping chaos as a pantheon. Not much depraved gak to be found there) are guys who will kill for nothing on a massive scale literally to venerate murder itself (in recent fluff completely without care for honor) ,spread disease, be dicks for unseeable or contrived reasons, or are utterly self centered, drug addicts, with genitalia in unfortunate places. Or in the case of the most evil, all the above.

Yea, Renegate Marines that don't turn to Chaos can be good in a sense (the Soul Eaters were physically tainted by it, but never sold their souls to it and opposed it to the end). Examples are the Soul Drinkers, the Relictors (who, as of the latest IA book, are implied to still be fighting Chaos and have some allies in the Inquisition despite being declared traitors), and the Knights of Blood (declared renegade for not caring too much about civilian lives, but still loyal to the Imperium and help where they can while keeping their distance)

Of course, they aren't 100% shiny (knights of blood don't care about civilian casualties, and Relictors attacked Inquisition outposts for relics) but they can at least be good in some ways.

Chaos Marines though.... not really. Maaaaaybe the Blood Gorgans if you overlook the whole ritual sacrificing things they do (since they do it for chaos power for other goals as opposed to just for kicks) but even that's a stretch.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Renegade marines can be good. The Soul Drinkers do as much good as they can. Actively chaos worshipping marines (except for pre heresy Word Bearers. They were basically a normal religion worshipping chaos as a pantheon. Not much depraved gak to be found there) are guys who will kill for nothing on a massive scale literally to venerate murder itself (in recent fluff completely without care for honor) ,spread disease, be dicks for unseeable or contrived reasons, or are utterly self centered, drug addicts, with genitalia in unfortunate places. Or in the case of the most evil, all the above.

Yea, Renegate Marines that don't turn to Chaos can be good in a sense (the Soul Eaters were physically tainted by it, but never sold their souls to it and opposed it to the end). Examples are the Soul Drinkers, the Relictors (who, as of the latest IA book, are implied to still be fighting Chaos and have some allies in the Inquisition despite being declared traitors), and the Knights of Blood (declared renegade for not caring too much about civilian lives, but still loyal to the Imperium and help where they can while keeping their distance)

Of course, they aren't 100% shiny (knights of blood don't care about civilian casualties, and Relictors attacked Inquisition outposts for relics) but they can at least be good in some ways.

Chaos Marines though.... not really. Maaaaaybe the Blood Gorgans if you overlook the whole ritual sacrificing things they do (since they do it for chaos power for other goals as opposed to just for kicks) but even that's a stretch.

Hmmm, while Khornate followers are often portrayed as pure bloodthirsty maniacs, perhaps they could be portrayed as some sort of honorable freedom fighters?

I remember ADB writing about Angron finding freedom the only reason worth fighting for and considering Empy a tyrant, like his Nucerian enslavers.

Not sure if this has been said yet or alluded to but Failbaddon could as easily be called the "Liberator" as opposed to "Despoiler", that is just the Imperiums view.

He basically wants to bring the greatest tyrannical regime Humanity has ever endured to an end.

NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Not sure if this has been said yet or alluded to but Failbaddon could as easily be called the "Liberator" as opposed to "Despoiler", that is just the Imperiums view.

He basically wants to bring the greatest tyrannical regime Humanity has ever endured to an end.

But to replace it with what? Certainly would be something even worse.

Everyone always presents their crusades in the best possible light....or in Abaddon's case, best possible black.

Talon of Horus does a really good job of making the Black Legion seem like the good guys, e.g. taking back their birthright. Also. Alpha Legion turned to prevent the triumph of chaos, not because they were traitorous. 1K Sons were victims of Horus' plot and never officially turned traitor. Lots of scope for chaos good guys.

1K Sons were victims of Horus' plot and never officially turned traitor. Lots of scope for chaos good guys.

Their Primarch did, and they went with him.

 Psienesis wrote:

1K Sons were victims of Horus' plot and never officially turned traitor. Lots of scope for chaos good guys.

Their Primarch did, and they went with him.

They turned traitor after the Imperium attacked& betrayed them, In order to survive.
Russ was pretty eager to follow Horus' false orders.

They turned traitor after the Imperium attacked& betrayed them, In order to survive.
Russ was pretty eager to follow Horus' false orders.

And? That does not make the Thousand Sons non-traitors.

 Psienesis wrote:

They turned traitor after the Imperium attacked& betrayed them, In order to survive.
Russ was pretty eager to follow Horus' false orders.

And? That does not make the Thousand Sons non-traitors.

And the Wolves following orders of a traitor?

The Space Wolves are plenty stupid, let's not mistake that, but at the time Horus was still the Warmaster and, so far as Russ knew, loyal to the Emperor.

Russ, being Not-The-Warmaster, was expected to follow the orders of the Warmaster, and, because Russ is a good soldier, does exactly what he's told.

Gullible? Possibly. Rather too eager to kill the 1KS rather than arrest Magnus? Yes... but, then again, it's Russ. "Attack dog" is what he is. A traitor? No, not with what he knew when he knew it. The Emperor told him to go get Magnus, Horus spoke with the Emperor's authority (as far as Russ knew), and instead told Russ to go destroy the 1KS, which would not be the first time (we are told) that the Rout had been used for such a purpose.

Russ was nothing more than an unwitting dupe.

The Purge seem like pretty ok dudes. They just want to exterminate all life. Given the crapsack universe that is 40k that might be a blessing.

 megatombuscus wrote:
burn the heretic

KILL THE MUTANT, PURGE THE UNCLEAN

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Talon of Horus does a really good job of making the Black Legion seem like the good guys, e.g. taking back their birthright. Also. Alpha Legion turned to prevent the triumph of chaos, not because they were traitorous. 1K Sons were victims of Horus' plot and never officially turned traitor. Lots of scope for chaos good guys.

Claiming your birth right doesn't make you a good guy. It just means you're taking what's rightfully yours. That's a neutral alignment action at best, even if a sympathizable one. So what the Talon of Horus did was make them sympathizable, not "good guys"

The Alpha Legion betrayed the Cabal too. So we don't know if they really did turn to prevent the triumph of Chaos or not. Hell, another short story showed the Alpha Legion betrayed Alpharius. Or Omegon. Or possibly both, for crying out loud. Yet are still betraying Horus too (see that Alpha Legion vs Mechanicus and Loyalist Iron Warriors battle in Forge World's third HH book). Honestly we don't know what the hell they're doing in general.

1k sons officially turned traitor when Magnus sold the legion to Tzeentch to save Prospero. Up until then, he resisted and would rather have his legion destroyed, in which case, it's arguable that up until then, he wasn't a traitor. After he sold the legion to Tzeentch to save Prospero though and from then on served him, yea, that's what traitors do. Serve the other team to hurt their original team. On purpose.

He had the option to NOT sell his soul to Tzeentch and had the option to just let his legion and Prospero be destroyed, and thus not a traitor. He decided in the end he'd rather save the knowledge left in Prospero. This is pretty much explicitly stated.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Space Wolves are plenty stupid, let's not mistake that, but at the time Horus was still the Warmaster and, so far as Russ knew, loyal to the Emperor.

Russ, being Not-The-Warmaster, was expected to follow the orders of the Warmaster, and, because Russ is a good soldier, does exactly what he's told.

Gullible? Possibly. Rather too eager to kill the 1KS rather than arrest Magnus? Yes... but, then again, it's Russ. "Attack dog" is what he is. A traitor? No, not with what he knew when he knew it. The Emperor told him to go get Magnus, Horus spoke with the Emperor's authority (as far as Russ knew), and instead told Russ to go destroy the 1KS, which would not be the first time (we are told) that the Rout had been used for such a purpose.

Russ was nothing more than an unwitting dupe.

He's just culpable as Magnus regarding the edict of Nikea, Let's face it.
Or you take his willy nilly "Draw our ancient furry viking powers from Fenris" bull as truth.

Besides they did not betray if they were attacked first, How could you prove your loyalty to a faction that wants you dead... Just let them kill you?
No, They weren't traitors and aren't traitors, The Imperium(technically Horus) pushed them to do as they've done.

Khonsu wrote:
Besides they did not betray if they were attacked first, How could you prove your loyalty to a faction that wants you dead... Just let them kill you?

Yes - you let them kill you. A loyal servant lays down his life if his master turns on him.

ADB is really the only author able to make CSM seem like real people or mildly sympathetic. That being said, he also has no qualms about showing what they really are.

And that's the problem with "good" CSM's. You can rationalize their motives and make them as complex as you like, but at the end of the day they still run around mass murdering/enslaving/brutalizing people.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
Besides they did not betray if they were attacked first, How could you prove your loyalty to a faction that wants you dead... Just let them kill you?

Yes - you let them kill you. A loyal servant lays down his life if his master turns on him.

If you lose your life you lost, Principles are of no use to a dead man.
People really like to pretend they're Samurais online.

Khonsu wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
Besides they did not betray if they were attacked first, How could you prove your loyalty to a faction that wants you dead... Just let them kill you?

Yes - you let them kill you. A loyal servant lays down his life if his master turns on him.

If you lose your life you lost, Principles are of no use to a dead man.
People really like to pretend they're Samurais online.

If your master tries to kill you for no good reason then at that point you may determine that he is no longer deserving of your loyalty. It doesn't make you any less of a traitor though.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Khonsu wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
Besides they did not betray if they were attacked first, How could you prove your loyalty to a faction that wants you dead... Just let them kill you?

Yes - you let them kill you. A loyal servant lays down his life if his master turns on him.

If you lose your life you lost, Principles are of no use to a dead man.
People really like to pretend they're Samurais online.

If your master tries to kill you for no good reason then at that point you may determine that he is no longer deserving of your loyalty. It doesn't make you any less of a traitor though.

It makes him a traitor, No master has a right to claim his servant's lives for nothing, Masters are not above betrayal.
They were the ones betrayed, Whether Horus used subterfuge to misdirect Rus, In reality the Wolves didn't pause for a second to question their orders, Russ did not try to use common sense as typical from a Brute Barbarian piece of trash, Undeserving of any dignity or respect, Took him but a second to forget Magnus was his brother, He didn't even notice Magnus did not appear until the end, And did not Lead his men, Let's ignore the fact Tzeentch offered Magnus to destroy the entire Wolfy Wolf wolf Fleet of Wolfdom in warp travel and he declined, They were betrayed, Magnus was wrong in acting like a Jackass and ignoring the Emperor's orders but the Emperor was vague and Magnus was trying to save the Imperium from Horus' treachery, Too bad the Emperor is a buffoon and he ignored Magnus' message completely and Sent Leman Wuss to take care of him.
And again Russ ignored the edict of Nikea himself, Let's forgo the entire dumbass terminology debate, The Wolves had psykers and used them.
Just like Kharn once said, I've got no idea why these Fools dub themselves Wolves when they are but simple mutts and mongrels.

I love the scenes that come after with Thousand Sons obliterating the Wolves prior to Russ' coming though.