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In some BL content you will find that the Space Marines are ultra heroic, noble and totally evil-killing Mary Sue badasses. On the other hand, the CSM are totally evil and despicable, and serve as cannon fodder to the heroic loyalists.

If you've read the SM & CSM 6th ed codices, you'll know what I mean. Reading through the SM codex, I found myself getting bored of the praise being heaped upon the SMs.

I'm thinking of writing a fanfic from the CSM point of view, in which the CSMs are portrayed as the good guys, and the negative aspects of the Imperium are especially highlighted.

Do you think it's a good or bad idea? Or is it too heretical to see the light of day?

I wouldn't read it but thats because it violates my fanfiction.

Honestly as long as it makes sense and you don't go over the top chances are it'll sound good.

Well, from what I heard, just because a marine turned traitor doesn't mean it immediately supports chaos either. Wasn't that the soul drinkers' schtick? Also, if I'm remembering this right, the Alpha Legion (during the heresy anyway) wanted to eliminate the IoM to aid other xenos, not to support chaos.

The Night Lords books- very occasionally, some of the characters can be classed as "Nice". Briefly lol.

The thing is that the perception of the some or many Chaos Space Marines is that they are in the right and the rest of the Empire is wrong especially those from the 8 traitor legions, so even though Chaos Space Marines literally burn entire worlds they consider it justice not malice for the wrongs they have suffered at the hands of the false Emperor and his lackeys. Or that they are in fact liberating many of the worlds from the evil emperor and bringing the populace to worship the true gods of Chaos.

Welcome to 40k, there are no good guys. The space marines can be bungholes but that generally is downplayed as they are now supposed to be the good guys. Everyone is right from their standpoint and whoever wins in 40k everyone loses; warp envelopes the galaxy, nids eat everyone and everything, everyone is now a: weeabü space commie, necron slave, dark eldar torture victim, or dead.

Chaos generally are the bad guys because its easiest to make the crazed spikey gits who sacrifice people evil, and easier to make things like a commissar in comparison.


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That and kharn is a pretty swell guy.

You have to remember is that the thing with the 'ol SM Vs. CSM is that its really Religious Fascism Vs. Satanism.

Both are evil yet in some cases both can be seen as the good guys depending on the situation..

Such examples come from as you have said with the GW fiction with SM being the holy good of mankind purging the "unclean" with bolter and flame.

Other stories that show Chaos in a good light could be from the HH novels with examples such as Lorgar and the Emperors relationship and Angron, in which cases Chaos could be seen as the good guys for actually caring about said Primarch's..

Or if your more into recent 40k fluff think of the Imperium's more... Neglectful side where there are some systems that are neglected by the Imperium leading to some controversial (Because 40k =/= Grim Dark and check the, of Fire and Ice book series for inspiration, for any controversial themes of hierarchy) unchecked hierarchy from the ruling class and a revolt spreads. Since the Imperium has done nothing about it the rioters denounce the imperium and Chaos comes to the rioters side cleansing the hierarchy and then asking for some "simple" worship. By the time the Inquisition comes its too late for the system may have been dammed by that point and gets sucked into the Warp..

Also have a look at what Inquisitors have done, maybe there are corrupt power grabbing puritan inquisitors, believing that they have the right to end countless innocent lives to Exterminatus..

Just a few ideas to get the ball going for you

Even though I am GK player and like the pompous heroics of purging Chaos from the galaxy, doesn't mean I can't sympathize with traitor/Chaos Legions.

Think that in the 41st, it is less grey than it used to be than back in the 30th but I still think it is there. There are evil, messed up things about the IoM, the same goes with the Chaos though. There are also things to cheer about with both sides depending on perspective. 40k was never about wars of good and evil because even our world isn't as black and white as that but a war of ideals, people fighting for what they believe in. In any IoM novel/fluff, they are always going to characterize the forces of Chaos in an evil light but I believe Chaos centered novels do the same thing for the IoM.

Look at the HH novels. I completely understand why Primarchs like Magnus and Perturabo sided with Horus and think they were correct in doing so. I relate to them and see them for the characters they are. The same can be said for any of them and highlights the conflict between the two sides well.

That being said, I ultimately side with people like Rogal Dorn because he reflects my own ideals and opinions. I don't ever think of any of the Primarchs as strictly evil...except maybe Fulgrim...anyway even in Mortarion's Heart , I can find a sympathy with Mortarion even as he stands as a major oppponent to the Grey Knights. That is just great characterization.

I think GW did well in presenting this even thought they get a little Imperium happy every once in a while.

Ahahahahah-no.

Chaos Space Marines are pretty much the only faction that can be outright called evil.

I think that Henry Zao's books, the ones with the Blood Gorgon CSMs, do a decent jib of portraying CSMs that could be considered "good". He writes the Blood Gorgons as being quite honourable, and looking after those who they consider their allies.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Do you think it's a good or bad idea?

I certainly think that it's possible, and can be written well. By all means, go ahead.

...However, my main concern with the idea of "good" CSMs, just from a fluff standpoint, is that they're still working for or are being influenced by the Chaos gods, who are very much not good. I'd say that any CSMs with good intentions would eventually lose them or have them perverted, due to the influence of Chaos.

 SkavenLord wrote:
Well, from what I heard, just because a marine turned traitor doesn't mean it immediately supports chaos either. Wasn't that the soul drinkers' schtick?

Though several of them did fall to Chaos anyway, and they were falling apart despite their attempt to stick to their principles.

Chaos Space Marines were victims. They were kidnapped by a dictator, then subjected to genetic augmentation and brainwashing against their will. In the Horus Heresy, they were fighting for a variety of reasons (mostly taking wealth and power from the Emperor and giving it to themselves) but some were probably fighting for freedom or entirely justified revenge.

10,000 years of bloody warfare and daemonic exposure have taken a bitter toll on them, to be sure. Most didn't even have good intentions to begin with. I'd say "good" Chaos Space Marines are still possible though. By "good" I mean that they avoid hurting people needlessly or aren't terribly ambitious. Maybe they're retired. Even then, "good" Chaos Space Marines probably wouldn't be what we consider nice people.

 Melissia wrote:
Ahahahahah-no.

Chaos Space Marines are pretty much the only faction that can be outright called evil.

Sure, it can be done. The Imperium is basically a group of religious, witchburning, Nazis and loyalists marines can be as guilty of this as any other Imperial faction, so the easiest part of the story will be making the IoM into the bad guys.

As for making CSM's the "good guys," that needs to be handled a little more delicately if you want readers to accept it. They'll almost certainly be antiheroes of one kind or another. I've had a couple ideas along these lines, with a Khornate champion who fits into the "honorable warrior" mold more than the "psychotic killer" one. Another one as an Emperor's Children lord who, well he was pretty monstrous, but he DID help save a planet from being purged by the IoM.
Here's some tropes that might be usefull when writing "heroic" CSM's:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/AntiHero?from=Main.SlidingScaleOfAntiHeroes
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ValuesDissonance
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ALighterShadeofBlack

Remember, in 40k, it's often less a matter of who's "good" as who's less evil.

burn the heretic

 fallinq wrote:
Sure, it can be done. The Imperium is basically a group of religious, witchburning, Nazis and loyalists marines can be as guilty of this as any other Imperial faction, so the easiest part of the story will be making the IoM into the bad guys.

That sounds like something Aspiring Chaos Champion would say!

Yeah Henry Zou did a good job of portraying the Blood Gorgons as being good, they go to help a world which they've sworn to protect.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 fallinq wrote:
Sure, it can be done. The Imperium is basically a group of religious, witchburning, Nazis and loyalists marines can be as guilty of this as any other Imperial faction, so the easiest part of the story will be making the IoM into the bad guys.

That sounds like something Aspiring Chaos Champion would say!

Well my current ranking is "Cackling Chaos Conscript." One day though. One day.

And Melissia, I think anyone whose had dealings with the Dark Eldar would disagree with you about that. Also, anyone whose been on the receiving end of an Imperium purge due to something they had absolutely no control over (non-Chaotic mutation, being a non-human race, the "crime" of being attacked by certain xenos or Chaos forces and thus "contaminated", a paranoid Inquisitor exterminatusing them just because, etc, etc). There may be good people in the IoM, but the system is rotten to the core.

 fallinq wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 fallinq wrote:
Sure, it can be done. The Imperium is basically a group of religious, witchburning, Nazis and loyalists marines can be as guilty of this as any other Imperial faction, so the easiest part of the story will be making the IoM into the bad guys.

That sounds like something Aspiring Chaos Champion would say!

Well my current ranking is "Cackling Chaos Conscript." One day though. One day.

And Melissia, I think anyone whose had dealings with the Dark Eldar would disagree with you about that. Also, anyone whose been on the receiving end of an Imperium purge due to something they had absolutely no control over (non-Chaotic mutation, being a non-human race, the "crime" of being attacked by certain xenos or Chaos forces and thus "contaminated", a paranoid Inquisitor exterminatusing them just because, etc, etc). There may be good people in the IoM, but the system is rotten to the core.

Even Dark Eldar can be argued that they're just doing what they can to survive. Chaos MArines don't really even have that much going for them. CSMs meanwhile worship the Chaos Gods because they want power. And CSMs do evil gak for the Chaos Gods because, again, they want more power.

You can have a good or sympathetic traitor Space Marine.

However, once they make the transition to "Chaos" Space Marine, they more or less lose any sympathetic qualities.

The reason being that worshiping Chaos actively leads an individual to mustache-twirling levels of evil.

 Melissia wrote:
Even Dark Eldar can be argued that they're just doing what they can to survive. Chaos MArines don't really even have that much going for them. CSMs meanwhile worship the Chaos Gods because they want power. And CSMs do evil gak for the Chaos Gods because, again, they want more power.

I could point out that it can be argued that the Thousand Sons are just doing what they can to survive and have been for ten thousand years. They're Chaos Marines that are a billion times more sympathetic than the Dark Eldar.

The Death Guard joined Chaos to survive. And at that point, once you're in with Chaos that deep you have to commit atrocities to survive as well, lest you be turned into a Chaos Spawn.

Angron very literally had no choice when it came to falling to Chaos; Lorgar turned him into a Daemon Prince during a battle without Angron's permission using a massive Warp ritual. And of course, it was literally the only way to save Angron from a slow death from the Butcher's Nails.

There's a lot of potential for cackling cartoon villains in Chaos, just like the Dark Eldar. But there's far more potential for sympathetic Chaos Marines than sympathetic Dark Eldar (This was once true of the Necrons as well before they became pussy metal men with feelings).

Chaos Marines, maybe. Worshiping the ruiniour powers makes you evil, but evil incarnate it does not make. In a bad universe, with evil everywhere, CSM could be good by comparison.



Renegade Marines certainly. Just because the IoM shuns you does not make you evil, nor does it in any way make you ungood.



Honestly though CSM are the most diverse faction in the game. So many different types. So many motivations, cultures, value systems. They could concieveably be warbands/chapters that are doing anything.

*Commissar Voice* EXTRA HERESY!!! **Blam**

-------------------------------

*Voice of Reason*
"There's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought …"
- A quote from GOT

I see all the "SPACE MARINES GOOD" and "CHAOS MARINES BAD" as brainwashing and Imperial Propaganda. Sure, there are a lot of 'Evil' Chaos Marines that are truly chaotic and chaos god-loving, but out of the countless hundreds of thousands of marines that are supposedly 'Chaotic', there is sure to be a percentage that aren't evil. Hell, even when the Legions supposedly purged every 'Loyalist' marine within their ranks, I'm sure they didn't get all of them. Maybe some of those Loyalists are still among those legions and are subtly sabotaging their interests from within etc. Like real life, it isn't all black and white.

If anyone seems like good guys in 40K fiction, then, IMHO, it is done wrong. However, considering that Imperials are genocidal nazi zealots, it will be perfectly possible to present Chaos in somewhat sympathetic light.

Look into the Soul Drinkers series ... its about a loyalist chapter that goes rogue and fights both the imperium and chaos, the Storm of Iron book is from the perspective of iron warriorsI wouldn't say they are the good guys but its pretty good, and the Horus Heresy series.

They don't really qualify as "Chaos Marines".

Are we including renegade chapters as Chaos Marines?


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Are we including renegade chapters as Chaos Marines? Such as The Relictors?

"I'm thinking of writing a fanfic from the CSM point of view, in which the CSMs are portrayed as the good guys, and the negative aspects of the Imperium are especially highlighted."

The Soul Drinker stuff has alot of stuff that could show how easy it is for a chapter to leave the imperium and fall to chaos (since they almost did due to a tzeentch'ian plot) ... and some of the Soul Drinkers do fall to chaos (khorne much?).

The entire reason they go renegade is because of the negative aspects of the Imperium.

Theres a difference between a Renegade and a Chaos Space Marine.

A renegade has gone rouge from the imperium and use whatever means necessary to survive and fight for what every cause they are fighting for.

While the csms are there because.... They choose to be. They weren't really ever forced into it. Lets face it the primarchs were, (with the exception of the Thousand Sons and the Iron Warriors). They choose to be evil and choose to go to the ruinous powers, they were not aware of the consequences but they became that. Chapters like the Red Corsairs, choose to go renegade which lead them to the path of damnation.

The renegades can go from A Knights of Blood to Astral Claws.

IN the world of Warhammer 40k there are no true good guys.

Asherian Command is right, there are no good guys in 40k, and falling to Chaos is a choice. Is is an inherently evil choice though?

This is why I think there should be 3 Space Marine codicies: Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines and Renegade Space Marines because the variety of flavors each comes with. Even if the Renegade codex was a small one like the Inquisitorial and SoB codices, it would go a long way to establish the differences. Honestly, I would also put the Iron Warriors, Night Lords and Alpha Legion in the Renegade codex too.