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Actually there was a great short story in the back of the 2nd edition wargear book about a Chaos lord (Brother Captain Karlsen). It is actually one of my favorite stories from all of 40k. I wouldn't say the chaos lord is portrayed as a 'good guy', but he is still interesting to follow. The story is mainly about him meditating (more interesting than it sounds). Because he is 10,000 years old, he has a kind of mental map system for organizing his memories. The story follows him through some of his memories for 10,000 years, as he decides what he wants to keep. I certainly recommend reading that if you can find it.

Well, yea, Chaos can be insanely INTERESTING, for sure. It's just examples where they're morally good by what most people would consider "morally good" (as opposed to simply their own idea of what's "morally good") that are pretty much nonexistent.

Of course, as mentioned and explicitly stated in the fluff, they can START good. Doesn't change the end result (which, again, is explicitly stated). That doesn't mean they don't think they themselves are morally good (a short story of Kharn has him referring to Slaaneshi followers as "evil" and clearly genuinely believing he's doing good by killing them and genuinely doing good when he betrayed his brothers at Scaralax). It just means that by most other peoples' standards, they'd definitely not fall under the morally good side (even many other Khorne followers believe Kharn went overboard there)

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I disagree and heres why

One special snowflake planet does not make me change my mind when the overwhelming majority of examples say otherwise.

 Melissia wrote:

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I disagree and heres why

One special snowflake planet does not make me change my mind when the overwhelming majority of examples say otherwise.

One special snowflake Commissar or other Imperial leader does not make me change my mind when the overwhelming majority of examples say otherwise.

I think a big part of the disagreement here is over the meaning of "good guys." In 40k, the "good guys" are antiheroes or the lesser evil more often than not. If you're saying that a Chaos Space Marine isn't going to be some angelic, altruistic, goody two shoes then yes, I agree with you! But I do think that there are Chaos worshippers and even daemonic forces that could very easily be the lesser evil to some genocidal witch burning Redemptionist, or being enslaved to the Dark Eldar.

Ask yourself this question: who would you really, honestly, rather take your chances with, a fanatical Monodominant Inquisitor with paranoia and rage issues, or Ahzek Ahriman? Personally, I'd go with Ahriman. Yeah, he might do something bad to me, but only if it furthered his own ends. I'd just as likely get to go free. He's never been shown to be pointlessly sadistic. But all you Imperial loyalists have fun in the torture chamber and being burnt alive afterwards, because you scratched your nose in a way that indicated that you might possibly be in league with dark forces, so we have to squeeze you for information before watching you die in agony just to be sure.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
In some BL content you will find that the Space Marines are ultra heroic, noble and totally evil-killing Mary Sue badasses. On the other hand, the CSM are totally evil and despicable, and serve as cannon fodder to the heroic loyalists.

If you've read the SM & CSM 6th ed codices, you'll know what I mean. Reading through the SM codex, I found myself getting bored of the praise being heaped upon the SMs.

I'm thinking of writing a fanfic from the CSM point of view, in which the CSMs are portrayed as the good guys, and the negative aspects of the Imperium are especially highlighted.

Do you think it's a good or bad idea? Or is it too heretical to see the light of day?

If you read any of the HH novels that focus on the traitor legions it actually becomes a lot easier to relate to the traitors and to understand why they turned against the Emperor and gives them more personality versus "These guys are plague ridden, these guys are berserkers etc."

To some worlds the CSM are seen as saviors (in situations where they have been abandoned by the Imperium) or in the case of the Word Bearers are often seen as being holy warriors who are often worshiped in their own right.

Also something to keep in mind every codex/army book goes on and on and on about the virtues (or sins which in some cases is a good thing) of their respective armies as that book is there to promote that army.

Awesome!

Good is a point of view.

Humans eat delicious grox meat for sustenance. From the point of view of the grox the human is evil. From the point of view of the human the grox is food.

Chaos gods eat delicious human souls for sustenance. From the point of view of the human the Chaos gods are evil. From the point of view of the Chaos gods the human is food.

The Emperor also eats delicious human souls for sustenance. Does this not make him evil as well?

This is a universe where the strong feed on the weak. Mercy is a weakness and weakness is punished by death.

Chaos is inimical to the continuing existence of the Imperium. The Imperium is inimical to the continuing existence of the Chaos gods. Both will do what is necessary to survive. And both are absolutely horrible to the vast majority of their people. In a setting like this killing an innocent may be the nicest thing you could do for them.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Good is a point of view.

Humans eat delicious grox meat for sustenance. From the point of view of the grox the human is evil. From the point of view of the human the grox is food.

Chaos gods eat delicious human souls for sustenance. From the point of view of the human the Chaos gods are evil. From the point of view of the Chaos gods the human is food.

The Emperor also eats delicious human souls for sustenance. Does this not make him evil as well?

This is a universe where the strong feed on the weak. Mercy is a weakness and weakness is punished by death.

Chaos is inimical to the continuing existence of the Imperium. The Imperium is inimical to the continuing existence of the Chaos gods. Both will do what is necessary to survive. And both are absolutely horrible to the vast majority of their people. In a setting like this killing an innocent may be the nicest thing you could do for them.

This viewpoint woefully ignores what is ACTUALLY happening in the 40k setting.

For instance, while humans might be evil from the Grox's point of view, that doesn't change the fact that the chapter master of the Crimson Fists once carried a mother and his child on his back to safety during an Orc Waagh. Again, good is relative, but that is an action that the vast majority of people in both today's world and the 40th Millenium (or at least, the perspective we're given of it) would say is good. (also, it's arguable whether or not nonsentient beings like Grox even consider what's good and what's evil in the first place)

The Chaos Gods, meanwhile, have an official short story where they keep re-resurrecting a CHaos Space Marine and force him to hunt down the descendants of another Space Marine due to an oath he swore long ago. That has NOTHING to do with eating souls. The poor Chaos Marine literally begs the CHaos Gods every time he returns with the head of his latest kill to free him from his oath and finally let him die, and they never do. One day he actually got to see the chaos gods as he offered up his latest kill. AND THEY WERE LAUGHING AT HIM.

Again, that has nothing to do with eating souls. That is just being a jerk, and is something that, from the vast majority of perspectives both in reality and in 40k would say is evil (including that Chaos Marine's perspective. Yes, even a member of Chaos is seeing the Chaos gods as evil)

Good and Evil are relative and subjective depending on who you ask. However, the VAST majority of people you'd ask would agree that certain acts are good and certain acts are evil, and most of Chaos' acts very VERY clearly fall on the latter category.

 Smacks wrote:
Actually there was a great short story in the back of the 2nd edition wargear book about a Chaos lord (Brother Captain Karlsen). It is actually one of my favorite stories from all of 40k. I wouldn't say the chaos lord is portrayed as a 'good guy', but he is still interesting to follow. The story is mainly about him meditating (more interesting than it sounds). Because he is 10,000 years old, he has a kind of mental map system for organizing his memories. The story follows him through some of his memories for 10,000 years, as he decides what he wants to keep. I certainly recommend reading that if you can find it.

That's a great story. I love so much of the older fluff. It's so much more bleak than the modern tuff which is far more focused on glamorizing the setting's armies of toy soldiers rather than exploring the slow decline of a galaxy gone to hell.

That one story "gets" Chaos Marines far better than most Black Library stuff.

 fallinq wrote:


I think a big part of the disagreement here is over the meaning of "good guys." In 40k, the "good guys" are antiheroes or the lesser evil more often than not. If you're saying that a Chaos Space Marine isn't going to be some angelic, altruistic, goody two shoes then yes, I agree with you! But I do think that there are Chaos worshippers and even daemonic forces that could very easily be the lesser evil to some genocidal witch burning Redemptionist, or being enslaved to the Dark Eldar.

Ask yourself this question: who would you really, honestly, rather take your chances with, a fanatical Monodominant Inquisitor with paranoia and rage issues, or Ahzek Ahriman? Personally, I'd go with Ahriman. Yeah, he might do something bad to me, but only if it furthered his own ends. I'd just as likely get to go free. He's never been shown to be pointlessly sadistic. But all you Imperial loyalists have fun in the torture chamber and being burnt alive afterwards, because you scratched your nose in a way that indicated that you might possibly be in league with dark forces, so we have to squeeze you for information before watching you die in agony just to be sure.

Yes +1

I also think that it has to do with if you think CSM are capable of good acts. There is a small tyranid fleet approaching a planet that has no chance of defending itself. Would CSM come to defend it? I mean sure they would install themselves as rulers of said planet after the defense but is life under a CSM warlord worse than certain painful death? I think with the range of CSM out there(they are more diverse than any other group) you would find some that are indeed capable of performing acts of good.

genocidal witch burning Redemptionist

That witch-burning Redemptionist is doing the work of the God-Emperor. That Redemptionist is a patriot! That Redemptionist is a hero!

If people didn't want to be purged by a genocidal, witch-burning Redemptionist, then they should have chosen to be born in line with the Sacred Human Form, as set down by the God-Emperor, and avoided practicing witch-craft... as set down by the God-Emperor. These heretics have only themselves to blame.

 Exergy wrote:
[qu
Yes +1

I also think that it has to do with if you think CSM are capable of good acts. There is a small tyranid fleet approaching a planet that has no chance of defending itself. Would CSM come to defend it? I mean sure they would install themselves as rulers of said planet after the defense but is life under a CSM warlord worse than certain painful death? I think with the range of CSM out there(they are more diverse than any other group) you would find some that are indeed capable of performing acts of good.

Saving a planet so you can conquer it for yourself isn't an "act of (moral) good" as defined by what most people would call "morally good". It's at best a neutral act.

It can be considered an act of overall objectivist good in that overall production is conserved, but from a moral standpoint, it's neutral at best. True moral good by most peoples' standards involve helping out while expecting nothing (or at least, less) in return.

 fallinq wrote:
Ask yourself this question: who would you really, honestly, rather take your chances with, a fanatical Monodominant Inquisitor with paranoia and rage issues, or Ahzek Ahriman?

Neither one, they're both horrible people who I would never want to deal with .

If I had to choose from some kind of cruel choice, the worst case scenarios for both are the same-- my mind being forcibly ripped open by psychic powers, leaving me a shattered shell of a human being, which is then turned in to a weapon to use against their enemies.

So I can't look at the worst case scenario there.

In comparison, the best case scenario for the inquisitor is that he wipes my memory of meeting him and then shuffles me back in to the Imperial bureaucracy. Best case scenario with Ahriman would involve me being killed before he could get to the worst case scenario.

I'd take my chances with the Inquisitor.

One special snowflake planet does not make me change my mind when the overwhelming majority of examples say otherwise.

Not really a snowflake but in 40k nothing is even close to ideal.

I think thier some fluff about the planets on the outer edge of the eye of terror being just giant refugee camps full of mutants and people who would be servitored for petty crimes.

There really aren't many good examples because games workshop has neglected the lost and the damned.


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That isn't how that works. Those psykers who power the Astronomican might last years at their task, others only days, but it's a leaching process, not a torturous one. The thousand a day who are fed to the God-Emperor are for other purposes than the Astronomican.

Octavia sees the astronimicon as a beam of light with the souls sacrificed screaming.


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The Tau. I'll be a Gue'la farmer, thanks.

and a perfect sacrifice or target for inquisitor review. I never understood why anyone would want to be a slave to soulles talking fish.

that never happens

Plenty of honorable deaths, you haven't be read the right books. They usually have great last words "for the Emperor" "Death to the false Emperor" "From Iron co-meth Iron and may it for ever be so".

Plenty of honorable deaths, you haven't be read the right books. They usually have great last words "for the Emperor" "Death to the false Emperor" "From Iron co-meth Iron and may it for ever be so".

Those are just deaths. They are less to the galaxy than a pebble tossed into an ocean.

This is a dystopian setting... none of those deaths matter, or accomplish anything of permanent good, or even gain.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

The Tau. I'll be a Gue'la farmer, thanks.

and a perfect sacrifice or target for inquisitor review. I never understood why anyone would want to be a slave to soulles talking fish.

They're camels, not fish. Look at their feet. Look at their necks. Notice the three big, wide toes and lack of gills? Not to mention the whole pheromone thing. Pheromones don't work so great under water. Not fish.

 Psienesis wrote:

Plenty of honorable deaths, you haven't be read the right books. They usually have great last words "for the Emperor" "Death to the false Emperor" "From Iron co-meth Iron and may it for ever be so".

Those are just deaths. They are less to the galaxy than a pebble tossed into an ocean.

This is a dystopian setting... none of those deaths matter, or accomplish anything of permanent good, or even gain.

I don't know, I don't think a death has to matter to be honourable, it just has to not be experienced while fleeing or begging to be spared.

Of course, the whole idea of an 'honourable' death is a bit pointless really. Death is death. The Nightbringer comes for us all in the end.

Hel is for farmers, not sinners. Only the war-dead go to Valhalla or Odin's Hall.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Good is a point of view.

Humans eat delicious grox meat for sustenance. From the point of view of the grox the human is evil. From the point of view of the human the grox is food.

Chaos gods eat delicious human souls for sustenance. From the point of view of the human the Chaos gods are evil. From the point of view of the Chaos gods the human is food.

The Emperor also eats delicious human souls for sustenance. Does this not make him evil as well?

This is a universe where the strong feed on the weak. Mercy is a weakness and weakness is punished by death.

Chaos is inimical to the continuing existence of the Imperium. The Imperium is inimical to the continuing existence of the Chaos gods. Both will do what is necessary to survive. And both are absolutely horrible to the vast majority of their people. In a setting like this killing an innocent may be the nicest thing you could do for them.

This viewpoint woefully ignores what is ACTUALLY happening in the 40k setting.

For instance, while humans might be evil from the Grox's point of view, that doesn't change the fact that the chapter master of the Crimson Fists once carried a mother and his child on his back to safety during an Orc Waagh. Again, good is relative, but that is an action that the vast majority of people in both today's world and the 40th Millenium (or at least, the perspective we're given of it) would say is good. (also, it's arguable whether or not nonsentient beings like Grox even consider what's good and what's evil in the first place)

The Chaos Gods, meanwhile, have an official short story where they keep re-resurrecting a CHaos Space Marine and force him to hunt down the descendants of another Space Marine due to an oath he swore long ago. That has NOTHING to do with eating souls. The poor Chaos Marine literally begs the CHaos Gods every time he returns with the head of his latest kill to free him from his oath and finally let him die, and they never do. One day he actually got to see the chaos gods as he offered up his latest kill. AND THEY WERE LAUGHING AT HIM.

Of course they were laughing at him. Because that kind of stuff is freaking hilarious to a Chaos god.

The problem is that you are judging the Chaos gods by the morals of man. But they aren't men - they are gods. You are like the buzzing of flies to them! Think of all the "injustices" perpetrated by your immune system on the poor helpless microorganisms just trying to survive in your body. Do you care? Should you?

In all honesty I have always viewed Chaos and the Imperium as being on the same level of evil.

Chaos is personal freedom taken to far.

The Imperium is the promise of safety taken to far.

Both are really just the same amount of extreme on the opposite end of the spectrum. I like FW since stuff like the DKOK and Carchardons show just how screwed up the Imperium is/can be and made me see they are really just opposite evils.


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Also Kantor did save a mother and child buuuuttttt

Carcharadons killed like more than a few million mothers and children when pacifying the Mantis Warriors.

The Inquisition destroys entire planets full of mothers and children.


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Also consider Chaos like the cenobites in the Hellraiser (just the first one.)

They don't really understand concepts like "good" or "evil" they really don't understand people in general. They are Eldritch Abominations, something that is truly impossible for the human mind to understand. Wouldn't it also be impossible for the Abomination to understand humans?

Chaos really ISN'T personal freedom, though. Because it's still ruled by warlords and tyrants and people who are just plain lucky.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Of course they were laughing at him. Because that kind of stuff is freaking hilarious to a Chaos god.

The problem is that you are judging the Chaos gods by the morals of man. But they aren't men - they are gods. You are like the buzzing of flies to them! Think of all the "injustices" perpetrated by your immune system on the poor helpless microorganisms just trying to survive in your body. Do you care? Should you?

Morality is relative. So I can judge the chaos gods by whatever the hell morals I want as long as I state which morals I am judging from.

And from the relative morality of the average man, the chaos gods are EVIL donkey-caves, as is pretty much the vast majority of Chaos with at best those approaching neutral morality and nary a good one in sight. Screw the Chaos Gods' idea of morality!

The original poster is clearly asking for "Chaos Space Marines as the good guys" as defined by mankind's moral viewpoint, anyways, not Chaos'. That said, it's rare as hell to see even devout followers of chaos refer to themselves as morally good even within their own idea of morality anyways. Not that it matters, because again, the OP clearly meant "as defined by the morality of your typical person".

 Melissia wrote:
Chaos really ISN'T personal freedom, though. Because it's still ruled by warlords and tyrants and people who are just plain lucky.

Chaos isn't a place or thing that can be truly controlled or ruled. The reason so many SM and humans fall to chaos is the fact that even a sliver of personal freedom is enough for them to burn a thousand worlds.
Chaos is "free" the same way the Imperium is "safe." That is what was in mind when these things were created and what they work to achieve.


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And for the luck thing:

1. Khorne doesn't select his champions at random it is for their victories.
2. Tzeench plans so meticulously nothing is ever "lucky" or random about his followers.
3. Nurgle rewards those who spread his plague.
4. On second thought you might be right about slaanesh...


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But the Imperium is by no standards good or even a lesser evil. So many people slave and toil away for the Imperial war machine it is unfathomable. Basic human freedoms, rights and even emotions have been systematically and meticulously stripped away in many parts of the Imperium. Mankind is forced to worship at the altar of someone who never even wanted to be worshiped. The inquisition are supposed to be the guardians of humanity but instead they squander there power and resources on personal agendas and infighting (some not all.) Also people overlook (as does GW) just how ruthless and cruel some SM chapters are. Take out the chapter names of any Carcharadons story and replace it with "world Eaters' and see if you see a difference. The Chaos gods and Imperium are equal in how messed up they are.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Chaos really ISN'T personal freedom, though. Because it's still ruled by warlords and tyrants and people who are just plain lucky.

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But the Imperium is by no standards good or even a lesser evil. So many people slave and toil away for the Imperial war machine it is unfathomable. Basic human freedoms, rights and even emotions have been systematically and meticulously stripped away in many parts of the Imperium. Mankind is forced to worship at the altar of someone who never even wanted to be worshiped. The inquisition are supposed to be the guardians of humanity but instead they squander there power and resources on personal agendas and infighting (some not all.) Also people overlook (as does GW) just how ruthless and cruel some SM chapters are. Take out the chapter names of any Carcharadons story and replace it with "world Eaters' and see if you see a difference. The Chaos gods and Imperium are equal in how messed up they are.

But for all the acts of atrocity in the Imperium, you have forces that counter act that and live for true honor and the common man. Space Wolves, Salamanders and Raven Guard all fight for the common Imperium and show up when their aid was unexpected to save normal citizens of the Imperium. Ultramarines and Imperial Fists are like that to a lesser extent, they are too busy being guardians to the Imperium to really do what those three other chapters do.

I am not trying to make a case that the Imperium is good but it at least has some factions that fight for honor and good to try and restore the Imperium to it's former glory, regardless how fruitless the task really is. How often do you seen that in Chaos stories? When have they liberated a planet for the sake of bringing the people freedom? They haven't, they liberate them to make alters for their patron gods.

Honestly, I would like to see that kind of side to Chaos, to make it a real actual opposite to the Imperium instead of being this grotesque bid for power and selfish motives. It's usually why I like the Traitor Legions than actual CSM.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
Chaos isn't a place or thing that can be truly controlled or ruled.

Chaos society, however, is a place that is usually defined by it being ruled by a tyrant.

If you're a commoner in a Chaos-controlled world, chances are you have less freedom than a commoner in an Imperial world.

Well the commoners on most chaos world's aren't even aware of chaos, much less followers. I am referring to chaos worshippers and champions. Most are slaves to darkness but they end up trading their souls for a sliver of freedom. Also again chaos is not structured into things like "societies" or anything that can be fully understood by humans.

But the Imperium is by no standards good or even a lesser evil. So many people slave and toil away for the Imperial war machine it is unfathomable. Basic human freedoms, rights and even emotions have been systematically and meticulously stripped away in many parts of the Imperium. Mankind is forced to worship at the altar of someone who never even wanted to be worshiped. The inquisition are supposed to be the guardians of humanity but instead they squander there power and resources on personal agendas and infighting (some not all.) Also people overlook (as does GW) just how ruthless and cruel some SM chapters are. Take out the chapter names of any Carcharadons story and replace it with "world Eaters' and see if you see a difference. The Chaos gods and Imperium are equal in how messed up they are.

The Imperium isn't grim because things suck by choice and could be fine if a sensible person came along. That sensible person wouldn't survive fifty seconds of the reality. The Imperium is grim because every single s*** decision, every single sacrifice, every single death, every single man woman and child suffering a s*** life in the worst conditions imaginable, is the absolute best that can be done. It is a study of the worst happening to everyone and what part of your humanity must be sacrificed today just to stand a chance of survival, and all it asks is whether or not it would have perhaps been better to die.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I am referring to chaos worshippers

So was I.

The average worshiper of Chaos is nothing more than fodder, chaff to be thrown away by the champions.

They don't have freedom. They are slaves.

Hell, even the champions are slaves.

That is the paradox of Chaos.

The Imperium is so immoral because of their desire for safety.

How safe is it?

Almost all chaos servants want a sliver of freedom and some are lucky to at least be provided with the illusion of it. No one following chaos is truly free. No one who serves the Imperium is truly safe.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:

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And for the luck thing:

1. Khorne doesn't select his champions at random it is for their victories.
2. Tzeench plans so meticulously nothing is ever "lucky" or random about his followers.
3. Nurgle rewards those who spread his plague.
4. On second thought you might be right about slaanesh...

While the Chaos Gods reward achievements and merit more often than a completely chaotic entity would, they are still VERY fickle and "fickle" is a term used to describe them ALL THE TIME in the fluff. There are many who were awarded daemon princedom and many others reduced to spawn and many others ignored or listened to seemingly on a whim by the chaos gods.

As for Tzeentch, he does plan meticulously but whether or not there's a good place for YOU in that plan is partially down to luck. It's explicitly stated that all things are up in the air with Tzeentch, although it does disclaim that "good pawns tend to be better protected than others.". Note, however, the word TEND. It is VERY explicit that while merit and achievement can increase your odds of success as a chaos champion, luck plays a HUGE role thanks to the "fickle nature" of the gods. They're CHAOS gods for a reason (but again, still more orderly and reward merit more than a 100% chaotic entity would).

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
In all honesty I have always viewed Chaos and the Imperium as being on the same level of evil.

Chaos is personal freedom taken to far.

The Imperium is the promise of safety taken to far.

Both are really just the same amount of extreme on the opposite end of the spectrum. I like FW since stuff like the DKOK and Carchardons show just how screwed up the Imperium is/can be and made me see they are really just opposite evils.

The topic is "Chaos Marines as the good guys?" A tangent to that point that keeps coming up is "Imperium as the good guys?"

The major difference is that for the Imperium, the answer is SOMETIMES "Yes".

Salamanders, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Crimson Fists, etc, have all done things that many typical people would refer to as good.

Chaos at BEST gets "pet the dog" moments, and even those are rare as hell.

So yes, the Imperium DOES have bad inquisitors that in-fight a lot, but even you said "some" of them. Because many of them DON'T and are very nice people (or at least, trying their damndest to be nice in a galaxy that can force their hand)

The Imperium DOES have jerks like Marines Malevolent and Carcharodons (although LOYAL Imperial citizens are much better off with a Carcharodon than a World Eater. Forge World EXPLICITLY brings up a scenario where a rogue trader is saved by them and all they ask was for some supplies in return. Good luck getting that from World Eaters). It also has GOOD Marines that care about people like Salamanders, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels.

The Imperium does have cold regiments like Death Corps of Krieg. It also has many noble regiments honestly trying to atone or help the Imperium like the Cadians and the Vostroyan First Born. I honestly wouldn't call the Death Korps THAT evil either. They're just neutral more than anything, but they at least are self-less and honestly trying to atone, even if they get a bit too knight templar about it when judging others, which is much more than you can say for Chaos followers.

Chaos meanwhile has.... no one, really. Nicest faction I can think of is the Blood Gorgans and even they're a crazy bunch of psychos into human sacrifice, though they at least don't rule over their worlds like tyrants (unlike... well.... EVERY other Chaos Follower). Of course, absence of evil isn't really good by itself. They don't rule over their worlds in general, really (and instead just request a tithe in exchange for defense, which is really a neutral act).

I meant pre heresy World Eaters for the thing.

I have always viewed the more "sympathetic" stuff to kinda be a drop in an ocean of suffering and torment Imperium wise. I also cringe a bit at some of the more "heroic" SM stories, since they come off as inconsistent in the grand scheme of how horrible the Imperium is. Carcharadons are my favorite chapter though...

But yeah Choas is ubelievably immoral, as is the Imperium. Chaos is depicted as more selfish (which it can be) but the Imperium's idea of selflessness is blowing up a populated planet so the planet next to it can continue to toil and be oppressed.

Overall it's very lose-lose.


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Just to be clear I don't think Choas are shining knights in armor. They're all deranged selfish people who let personal desire get the best of them and are now slaves to deathless nightmare entities.

Like I said lose-lose.

 Envihon wrote:
This is why I think there should be 3 Space Marine codicies: Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines and Renegade Space Marines because the variety of flavors each comes with. Even if the Renegade codex was a small one like the Inquisitorial and SoB codices, it would go a long way to establish the differences. Honestly, I would also put the Iron Warriors, Night Lords and Alpha Legion in the Renegade codex too.

I would buy that Renegades codex in a heartbeat, even if I had no intention of building an actual army of them (though the more I hear about them, the more I like them...).

Make it happen, GW!


Also, in reply to the OP, I love the idea of exploring CSM as "good" guys, or at least, less "overtly mustache-twirling-cliche evil" guys. Chaos is such an interesting faction, with Tzeentch my favorite god of all, that I'd love to read stories about Tzeentchian marines who, through a grand scheme of Tzeentch that spans thousands of years, go on a campaign of "winning the hearts and minds" of loyalists across the galaxy, or something to that effect. Or, as others have said, simply exploring the grey areas of both the CSM and SM factions in a "Game of Thrones" style where neither the CSMs or the SMs/Imperials in your story are the clear-cut good guys. Introduce some moral dilemmas and have every choice that either side makes have both a good and bad, or simply neutral, outcome and you'll be off to a good start!