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Laying down his life and dying rather than being a traitor is exactly what Magnus initially did, remember? It was only at the very end that he realized he couldn't bear to see Prospero's knowledge lost so he finally stepped out to battle Russ and then gave himself up to Tzeentch.

So even Magnus at least initially would agree that NOT laying down his life would have been an act of betrayal. He's changed his mind since then, I believe. Not sure.

If his legion had heard his word they'd just wait there without fighting back and be slaughtered by the Wolves, He'd risk his most beloved sons to prove he is not a traitor.
Another proof that he was loyal.

 Sleix wrote:
The Sons of Malice are probably the closest thing to a "good" CSM chapter, although Malal was unfortunately retconned, so I guess they're not entirely CHAOS Space Marines. They're pretty much agnostic marines.

The Sons of Malice were created after the Malal retcon. Hence why the daemon patron of the Sons of Malice is Malice, not Malal.

Khonsu wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Khonsu wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
Besides they did not betray if they were attacked first, How could you prove your loyalty to a faction that wants you dead... Just let them kill you?

Yes - you let them kill you. A loyal servant lays down his life if his master turns on him.

If you lose your life you lost, Principles are of no use to a dead man.
People really like to pretend they're Samurais online.

If your master tries to kill you for no good reason then at that point you may determine that he is no longer deserving of your loyalty. It doesn't make you any less of a traitor though.

It makes him a traitor, No master has a right to claim his servant's lives for nothing, Masters are not above betrayal.

A master cannot betray his servants because he owes them no loyalty. This is not a two way street. The master commands and a loyal servant obeys without question. Rebelling against an evil master is rebellion nonetheless.

Whats wrong with rebellion?

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Whats wrong with rebellion?

Nothing wrong with rebellion. I think its the whole "sacrifice millions to dark entities" thing that makes them bad.

You make me want to write a book where you are following a space marine for a while, and it is only after the first couple of chapters do you realize he is a CSM.

My first exposure to Chaos was from Micheal Moorcock's Elric series in which the multiverse is the scene of war between chaos and law, but chaos is not evil and law is not good.
The chaos Gods might try and kill you on Monday then save your life and give you some cake on Wednesday. Chaos is in constant change, but doesn't really progress, similarly Law can be harsh and rigid.

In 40k my CSM chapter are 'The angels of Liberation' a Tzeentch-Slaanesh leaning force intent on freeing people from the slave like conditions of being an Imperial subject. White, silver and pastels are the colours with a bit of an angel theme thrown in. Yes, some chaos forces are bloodthirsty khornate skull collectors, some are not. There must be variety to me or it is not Chaos, it is just predictable evil.

Chaos CAN'T be the good guys for the same reason the Imperium of man can't be.

There AREN'T ANY GOOD GUYS in the 40k galaxy.
There are bad guys, and there are worse guys, and there are the ones you hope don't capture you alive (because dead would be better).

It's a nth power nihilistic distopia, ramped up to 11.

 chromedog wrote:
Chaos CAN'T be the good guys for the same reason the Imperium of man can't be.

There AREN'T ANY GOOD GUYS in the 40k galaxy.
There are bad guys, and there are worse guys, and there are the ones you hope don't capture you alive (because dead would be better).

It's a nth power nihilistic distopia, ramped up to 11.

Sould Drinkers thought they were the good guys, the Celestial Lions were good guys, but they talked back to the inquisition

One thing; not all CSM once held allegiance to the Imperium, some where created normally. These were children born in the eye to heretic parents. From their first breath they've had to fight to survive, been tortured unendingly through the process of creation, had memories of the Imperium implanted into them and thrown into the front lines, essentially an ultra-grimdark child soldier who could rip a modern tank apart. When it first meets the Imperium, they will react with hatred and attack it if his programming doesn't kick in first, calling him a traitor and heretic for decisions he never made. The poor kid never had a choice about his allegiance, something the Imperium will never acknowledge.

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