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Wasn't the Bloodthirster some sort of archotech that was being used by a Khornate Daemon?

I assume where Peregrine is going is that it could be possible to design it in a way that an early worshipper and perhaps a mid era CSM could be portrayed in a sympathetic, perhaps even "good guy" manner. Granted good in 40k isn't quite sunshine and dasies either but you catch my drift.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Khorne will certainly welcome their blood if you slaughter them on your way to the battlefield, or if there is no battlefield (yet), and you're simply slaughtering them to draw the attentions of more-powerful foes, who will raise armies in abhorrence of your actions, to oppose the might of your own armies.

Of course, Khorne is still the god of killing. But the point is that Khorne is also the god of combat, which includes things we normally think of as virtues, like matching your strength against the enemy's strength and winning. Which means two things:

1) Khorne transcends one-dimensional good vs. evil. It celebrates "good" killing, just as it celebrates "evil" killing. It is not bound by human concepts of morality, it simply exists.

2) It is possible to follow Khorne without being evil. In fact that's the whole point of how chaos corruption works. You don't (usually) wake up one day and decide to dedicate your life to slaughtering everything you encounter, you start off as a "good" soldier, just doing your duty. You start to value combat for its own sake, rather than as a means to an end, until the desire to perfect your combat abilities begins to define and consume you. And then Khorne has you.

That is entirely correct. As they say, "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions". You might fall into the worship of Khorne purely as a martial deity, like many of the gods of war from Earth's own mythology... but as things go on, and as you are driven into more and more conflicts, well... first, it was just a village of civilians who were actively assisting the enemy. Then it was a village of sympathizers. Then it was people who were suspected of sympathizing. Then it was people who might have been sympathizers... maybe... And then it was...

 Psienesis wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Khorne will certainly welcome their blood if you slaughter them on your way to the battlefield, or if there is no battlefield (yet), and you're simply slaughtering them to draw the attentions of more-powerful foes, who will raise armies in abhorrence of your actions, to oppose the might of your own armies.

Of course, Khorne is still the god of killing. But the point is that Khorne is also the god of combat, which includes things we normally think of as virtues, like matching your strength against the enemy's strength and winning. Which means two things:

1) Khorne transcends one-dimensional good vs. evil. It celebrates "good" killing, just as it celebrates "evil" killing. It is not bound by human concepts of morality, it simply exists.

2) It is possible to follow Khorne without being evil. In fact that's the whole point of how chaos corruption works. You don't (usually) wake up one day and decide to dedicate your life to slaughtering everything you encounter, you start off as a "good" soldier, just doing your duty. You start to value combat for its own sake, rather than as a means to an end, until the desire to perfect your combat abilities begins to define and consume you. And then Khorne has you.

That is entirely correct. As they say, "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions". You might fall into the worship of Khorne purely as a martial deity, like many of the gods of war from Earth's own mythology... but as things go on, and as you are driven into more and more conflicts, well... first, it was just a village of civilians who were actively assisting the enemy. Then it was a village of sympathizers. Then it was people who were suspected of sympathizing. Then it was people who might have been sympathizers... maybe... And then it was...

This is off-subject but quick question: Isn't that how some Eldar like the Howling Banshees get claimed by Khorne? They start out venerating Kaela Mensha Khaine but then sometimes loose control to become consumed by a pure warlike bloodlust to the point that if they would die their soul would be claimed by Khorne instead of Slaanesh? If I recall correctly, they also prefer this fate over the possibility of getting claimed by Slaanesh. So with that respect I guess certain factions of Chaos are judged to be worse than others.

Back on topic, I still think it comes down to a matter of perspective. Warhammer 40k has never been good vs. evil but a battle of perspectives.

Even from the perspective of Chaos itself, they still call themselves evil, and embrace it. "Let no good deed go unpunished, let no evil deed go unrewarded."

Even from the perspective of Chaos itself, they still call themselves evil, and embrace it. "Let no good deed go unpunished, let no evil deed go unrewarded."

That's from the older fluff. In the newer stuff they seem to see themselves as above morality.

 Melissia wrote:
Ahahahahah-no.

Chaos Space Marines are pretty much the only faction that can be outright called evil.

But can the imperium of man be called good in comparison?
By no means would the imperium of man be a happy place to live.
I mean, all of the armies of the imperium of man require you to abandon all free will and dedicate yourself 100% to the great leader that is the emperor of mankind. No deviant thoughts allowed.
At least the chaos gods allow you to do whatever the balls you want as long as you dedicate it to them.

DaPino wrote:
At least the chaos gods allow you to do whatever the balls you want as long as you dedicate it to them.

Only if you're a warlord, and even then, only until the fickle Chaos Gods get bored and decide to turn you in to an abomination. But then again, the equivalent position in the Imperium have equivalent freedoms, too.

The average person on a Chaos world has basically one job, "be a victim/sacrifice for everyone above you". And it'e enforced on them without any choice in their part.

The average person on a Chaos world has basically one job, "be a victim/sacrifice for everyone above you".

I disagree and heres why

Like most Daemon Worlds, Drakaasi is mind-warpingly strange. Befitting of a world dedicated to Khorne, its greatest feature is a sea of blood which connects the cities of the planet. Each city has its own arena where games are held in honour of the Blood God. Some are no more than shanty towns sitting atop the ocean of blood while others are unique; one is a great crystal which resonates with music dedicated to the lord of battles, another is nothing but a battlefield where men are regularly sent to their deaths to add to the Skull Throne, and yet another is a graveyard, where the titanic remains of gigantic warriors and their weapons litter the ground and have been turned into dwellings by the new inhabitants. Each honours the Blood God in its own way.[1]

Underneath the great cities of Drakaasi are many caverns where Scaephylyds, the xenos who form the slave caste of the daemon world, dwell.[1]

SocietyEverything on Drakaasi is made to honour the Blood God. The most prominent facet of this is the gladiatorial games where thousands meet their deaths every day.

There are many diverse members of the planet's ruling class, including Daemons, barbarian chieftains, Amazon-like huntresses, Chaos Space Marines, and regular men trying to act like nobility. They often get into petty squabbles which result in open warfare, but their main occupation is to raid other worlds for slaves to fight in the great arenas of Khorne. They all, however, submit to the supreme rule of Lord Ebondrake, a reptilian Daemon Prince who sponsors the games and commands the greatest army on Drakaasi.[1]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Drakaasi
A fully functioning society under the most dyfunction of chaos gods.

99.99999 percent of of Imperials are little more than slaves that live and die without even knowing about the war that thier producing weopons for. Sacrifices what about the golden throne progecting the agony of psyckers. In 40k you will die one out of three ways, a worn out slave, the subject of an unnesesary execution, or dying honorably living life with at least a little freedom.

A higher percentage of chaos society get to have some miminimal freedoms.

... nothing in that quote says anything about the 99.9999999% of the population of that world not being virtual slaves to that diverse noble caste.

Here's why:
and regular men trying to act like nobility which means they are often get into petty squabbles which result in open warfare .

They are slaves to the Blood God, to kill and die as his whim directs. If the former, they are the sacrificer. If the latter? They are the sacrifice.

They are, in essence, a planet of Imperial Guardsmen. I can guarantee you that no one on that planet has the freedom to preach peace and tolerance.

Sacrifices what about the golden throne progecting the agony of psyckers

That isn't how that works. Those psykers who power the Astronomican might last years at their task, others only days, but it's a leaching process, not a torturous one. The thousand a day who are fed to the God-Emperor are for other purposes than the Astronomican.

or dying honorably living life with at least a little freedom.

No one dies that way in 40K. No one.

The thing with 40K is that while the Imperium is not always the good guy, Chaos is always the bad guy. There are no exceptions to this rule.

Now, renegades who haven't turned to Chaos? Maybe they might feel wrong. Might even have a legitimate gripe. But if they've gone to Chaos, they're evil.

Thousand Sons aren't evil, they were set up, and upon realizing they could not prove their loyalty to the IoM, accepted their fate.

Not sure what it says about me but the first real life comparison that popped into my head was an NPR story about a black man living in ghetto America who was accused of a drug crime he didn't commit and was beaten until he wrote a confession for the crime.

Then they developed a hatred for the IoM, much like the black man afterwards developed a hatred for the local police force.

That's not really how it works though. You don't get to be angry, and then take out your aggression on the innocent. That makes you evil.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
That's not really how it works though. You don't get to be angry, and then take out your aggression on the innocent. That makes you evil.

Umm...awfully black and white don't you think? Especially considering that the universe GW has set up for 40k, it seems to be nothing but grey from here.

 Melissia wrote:
They don't really qualify as "Chaos Marines".

I prefer to call them the mentally challenged marines. I really wonder at times if the Soul Drinkers were created from Ogryns.

Also, depends entirely on the Warband. Some CSM's are semi reasonable antiheroes, certainly by the standard of the Imperium. Others, well, then you have the Emperor's Children.

 Envihon wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
That's not really how it works though. You don't get to be angry, and then take out your aggression on the innocent. That makes you evil.

Umm...awfully black and white don't you think? Especially considering that the universe GW has set up for 40k, it seems to be nothing but grey from here.

Evil: To perpertrate acts which harm others, whether for personal gain or the joy of it.

Good: To perpetrate acts with aid others, whether for personal gain or the joy of it.

Moral relativism is a load of bull. For a change, I'm agreeing with Veteran Sergeant (and you should know, I never agree with Veteran Sergeant).

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Drakaasi
A fully functioning society under the most dyfunction of chaos gods.

99.99999 percent of of Imperials are little more than slaves that live and die without even knowing about the war that thier producing weopons for. Sacrifices what about the golden throne progecting the agony of psyckers. In 40k you will die one out of three ways, a worn out slave, the subject of an unnesesary execution, or dying honorably living life with at least a little freedom.

A higher percentage of chaos society get to have some miminimal freedoms.

That's a functioning society, but it's still a pretty evil one. If you didn't notice, it relies on slavery to keep going.

Yes, the IoM has slavery in some parts too, but let's just forget about the IoM here since the topic is whether or not Chaos can be good (in the end. Chaos can START good for a given definition of "good" sometimes but the end result is EXPLICITLY always "corruption"). And in this planet's case, I wouldn't classify it as "good" under most definitions and relative opinions of "good".

 changerofways wrote:
Thousand Sons aren't evil, they were set up, and upon realizing they could not prove their loyalty to the IoM, accepted their fate.

Not sure what it says about me but the first real life comparison that popped into my head was an NPR story about a black man living in ghetto America who was accused of a drug crime he didn't commit and was beaten until he wrote a confession for the crime.

Then they developed a hatred for the IoM, much like the black man afterwards developed a hatred for the local police force.

Just because they had a reason to become villains/evil doesn't mean they aren't villains/evil now. The Thousand Sons of today have been consistently portrayed as selfish back stabbing jerks who are only in things for themselves and don't care how many innocents they trample along the way. Some of them might have some "Ends justifies the means" motifs going on (like that guy in Black Crusade who wants to find a way to restore his brothers from their rubric state) but that doesn't change that they don't care how many innocents are killed or sacrificed along the way.

(again, sometimes the IoM doesn't care either, although even in the worse case scenarios they usually at least pretend to care. But this isn't about whether or not Chaos is more evil than the IoM, even if it generally is. This is about whether or not Chaos itself is good. And the fluff has yet to really show any decent examples, unlike the IoM which, bad as it is, has MANY truly heroic cases and individuals displayed. Chaos just doesn't get any good guy showings like that in official fluff, ever. At most they RARELY get some Pet the Dog moments, but it's still all dogs to them).

I would say that approaching this topic you cannot have your characters be completely devoted to chaos and still be good guys.

There is a scale, a balance between order and chaos. Neither is inherently good or evil, but taken to their extremes they are destructive and not conducive to life.

The extreme of chaos is demons, beings of pure energy who wish only to tear down or corrupt.

While the extreme of order are the Necrons, soulless monsters who wish to sterilize the galaxy of all life.

I think you'd be better of writing about renegades not followers of chaos, after all everyone is bias towards the Imperium due to hte fact that it is the only hope for the continued survival of man.

Let us not make the mistake of assuming that, because Chaos is Evil, the Imperium is, therefore, Good. It doesn't work that way.

Chaos is Evil, yes. The Imperium is slightly-less-evil.

Just pointing something out.

In the real world, no one was a "good guy" before around 1960. That's because when we (which means modern people raised in Westernish cultures) say that somebody is a "good guy." what they actually means is that somebody is "somebody who thinks like us."

Naturally enough, before around 1960 there was almost no one who "thought like us" and therefore there were no good guys. Similarly, since value systems have not stopped changing, in another 60 years people will think that we in 2014 are vile. That's just the way things work.

So realistically no one 38,000 years in the future is going to be a good guy. It's absurd.

Ehmm... no.

Ahem, yes. The modern Western value system is very recent historically.

For instance, you get long debates on this forum over homophobia and sexism in 40K. 100 years ago this would have been ridiculous.

Anyway, the point is that expecting people 38.000 thousand years in the future to have the same ethical views as we do is ridiculous.

Neither of which exist as established facets of Imperial (or Chaotic) society in M41, so is irrelevant.

Chaos wants to take your immortal soul (not a conceptual thing in 40K, but a thing known and proven to exist) and do things to it that no sane mind of any sentient species in the galaxy wants to have happen to it.

Gods are not metaphorical concepts or bits of mythology in M41. They are (by those allowed to know) known to be things that truly exist, that truly do things that affect the Material Universe and, in 90% of cases, have an exceedingly malignant view towards mortal life.

100 years ago (and before), we had the beginnings of the modern Suffrage movement so, no, the idea of "sexism is bad" is not something from the last 50 years. 160 years ago, we had societal shifts to do away with the racist practice of slavery in the United States, and in Europe as well (where the slave trade had all but ended entirely, which became a political point during the American Civil War, which left the Confederacy the only nation in the then-"modern" world to have the institution).

Thousands of years ago, we had egalitarian societies throughout the Americas and in Europe (notably not Rome or Greece). It was the establishment (mostly via conquering armies) of a particular collection of monotheistic cults that did away with these societies and established the patriarchal socio-political systems that are most-commonly considered "the old ways" today. In most cases, no one thought they were a really good idea then, either (except, of course, the partriarchs at the top of the pile, and those immediately benefiting from them),

So... no.

 Psienesis wrote:
Let us not make the mistake of assuming that, because Chaos is Evil, the Imperium is, therefore, Good. It doesn't work that way.

Chaos is Evil, yes. The Imperium is slightly-less-evil.

I'm not saying the Imperium is good I'm saying if you were in 40k who would you align yourself with?

The Imperiums goal is the continued survival of mankind at all costs.

 Psienesis wrote:
Neither of which exist as established facets of Imperial (or Chaotic) society in M41, so is irrelevant.

Chaos wants to take your immortal soul (not a conceptual thing in 40K, but a thing known and proven to exist) and do things to it that no sane mind of any sentient species in the galaxy wants to have happen to it.

Gods are not metaphorical concepts or bits of mythology in M41. They are (by those allowed to know) known to be things that truly exist, that truly do things that affect the Material Universe and, in 90% of cases, have an exceedingly malignant view towards mortal life.

100 years ago (and before), we had the beginnings of the modern Suffrage movement so, no, the idea of "sexism is bad" is not something from the last 50 years. 160 years ago, we had societal shifts to do away with the racist practice of slavery in the United States, and in Europe as well (where the slave trade had all but ended entirely, which became a political point during the American Civil War, which left the Confederacy the only nation in the then-"modern" world to have the institution).

Thousands of years ago, we had egalitarian societies throughout the Americas and in Europe (notably not Rome or Greece). It was the establishment (mostly via conquering armies) of a particular collection of monotheistic cults that did away with these societies and established the patriarchal socio-political systems that are most-commonly considered "the old ways" today. In most cases, no one thought they were a really good idea then, eithe.

By saying that you had the beginnings of the Suffrage movement and the beginnings of a movement away from racism you are in fact acknowledging that these ideas had a historical origin. Incidentally, racism itself has a historical origin,

We know almost nothing about the social structures of the Americas and Europe thousands of years ago, given a total absence of records, and anybody who claims otherwise is BSing, We do however know a lot about the social structures of the Near East thousands of years ago, and they were neither egalitarian nor monotheistic. And we do know that the pagan Celts and Germans both had slaves.

We know almost nothing about the social structures of the Americas and Europe thousands of years ago, given a total absence of records, and anybody who claims otherwise is BSing, We do however know a lot about the social structures of the Near East thousands of years ago, and they were neither egalitarian nor monotheistic. And we do know that the pagan Celts and Germans both had slaves.

That's simply not true as we have fairly good historical records from a number of sources (Roman, Celt, Nordic) about their societies, as well as the societies of the people they encountered, in addition to archaeological studies, but, again, we can look at the historical records of the time to denote shifts, both subtle and major, in these societies to observe social revolutions with regards to their practice of slavery, their attitudes towards it, and its practice in general.

Point being, just because a society was, in its own time, a certain way does not mean that it was not viewed as "evil" by its contemporaries, even within its own borders. It is not only through the eyes of history that such judgements are made.

I'm not saying the Imperium is good I'm saying if you were in 40k who would you align yourself with?

The Tau. I'll be a Gue'la farmer, thanks.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
That's not really how it works though. You don't get to be angry, and then take out your aggression on the innocent. That makes you evil.

Umm...awfully black and white don't you think? Especially considering that the universe GW has set up for 40k, it seems to be nothing but grey from here.

Evil: To perpertrate acts which harm others, whether for personal gain or the joy of it.

Good: To perpetrate acts with aid others, whether for personal gain or the joy of it.

Moral relativism is a load of bull. For a change, I'm agreeing with Veteran Sergeant (and you should know, I never agree with Veteran Sergeant).

From that definition, the Imperium would seem a lot better than it actually is because the whole goal of the Imperium is to aid Mankind and its existence which is a great premise and all but what are the means to get there? The road to hell is paved in good intentions. The "greater good" is not just the mantra of the Tau but it would apply to the Imperium as well since its ends are to promote Mankind as the dominate species but the means to do so can be pretty gruesome. I wasn't arguing moral relativism but things are rarely in extremes. Extremes exist but are usually the exception not the rule, this applies heavily in 40k for every faction. There is no black and white in 40k, no good vs. evil but a war of ideals.

Indeed.

I will quote a (censored) bit that I often trot out as to why there is no "fixing" the GrimDark of 40K:

The Imperium isn’t grim because things suck by choice and could be fine if a sensible person came along. That sensible person wouldn’t survive fifty seconds of the reality. The Imperium is grim because every single sh**decision, every single sacrifice, every single death, every single man, woman and child suffering a sh** life in the worst conditions imaginable, is the absolute best that can be done. It is a study of the worst happening to everyone and what part of your humanity must be sacrificed today just to stand a chance of survival, and all it asks is whether or not it would have perhaps been better to die.

Also, as the friendly neighborhood nihilist, I'd like to point out that morality just results from basic chemical compounds in your brain, and that good and evil are arbitrary constructs created by people with the power to enforce them. There is no good or evil, just what benefits and harms you or your ideological cult (and those who also are included within it).

To an extent, sure, but there's extremes even there. If you have wealth and people enough to send them to war to kill and capture people... couldn't you just pay some people to till your fields and harvest your crops?

This was, in fact, a great irony of the Confederacy. Plantation owners spent more on the purchase, care, and security of slaves than they would have by hiring white share-croppers.

Good and Evil are relative based on peoples' personal opinions, but there are things that a higher majority of beings would probably view as "good" than other things. For example, MOST people would view giving some food to some hungry poor people as "Good". MOST people would view murdering others against their will as "Evil".

Likewise, MOST people would view the VAST majority of what Chaos does or believes as "evil", and the number of fluff examples where Chaos has done things that most people would view as "good" are near nonexistent.

The Imperium, meanwhile, while having a lot of things many people would view as "evil", still has several aspects as well as individuals that most people would view as "good" or at least "debateable". Not that it particularly matters to the topic if one wants to strictly stick to the topic. Regardless of the Imperium, actual moments where Chaos does things that most people would genuinely consider "good" are ridiculously rare (nonexistent, even, perhaps)

Yes, Khorne could represent honor and Slaanesh beauty and Tzeentch drive, but point me to an actual fluff example of one of those individuals that's reached the latter stages of chaos "devoutness" that falls under what most people would consider "morally Good" and you won't find any to my knowledge (not just themselves, which mostly applies to just Nurgle followers but there are a few Tzeentch/Khorne/Slaanesh followers that genuinely think they're doing moral good. Doesn't change the fact that the majority of others would disagree) .

Even Black Crusade, where Chaos is the protagonist, the best they could come up with was things like an honorable Khornate follower who spared those who asked for mercy but still took something valuable in hopes that they'd fight to the death to keep it or else would one day come attack him attempting to get it back. That's still "evil" by most peoples' standards.