Reecius has a great article up on the Frontline Gaming site about Imperial Armor 4 giving Tyranids some much needed love! Click through and give him some views by reading it over there
Anyway, I was just curious what some tournament player's thoughts were on these 3 units that he discusses (Malanthrope, Dimachaeron, and Stonecrusher Fex).
The Malanthrope seems to be being really well received by basically everybody, while the Fex is interesting but really just another Fex option among many. The real question is the Dimachaeron! Getting a very polarized reception- absolutely panned by some posters in the Tyranid tactica thread on Dakka, but Reecius is very positive about it, as is jy2 I think.
So, does the Dimachaeron have a shot at being in some competitive builds? And is every other nid player ordering their book and a Malanthrope right now? Because I know I am, as soon as the DCM group order goes through this month . Hopefully, I'll be able to run 1 / 2 Dimachaerons, too
Malanthropes are the only actual thing to get excited about, that and having all the Hierophant rules in one spot.
The Dimachaeron has been discussed at length (and to death) in the Tyranid tactics thread. General consensus is he is another slow, large MC who is not fearless that has to foot slog (the silly 6" leap doesnt speed things up) with a 3+ save. If he gets in to combat thats great, but it'd be great if a lot of our MC's could get in to combat.
Malanthropes are awesome and an automatic take if FW is allowed.
I did see that discussion regarding the Dimachaeron- but I particularly wanted to get tournament player's thoughts on it (and Forgeworld buffing up Nids in general), based on Reecius' article above.
And yeah, Malanthrope looks like buttered bread dipped in gravy. A definite include in most lists, even just for that extra synapse!
RiTides wrote: I did see that discussion regarding the Dimachaeron- but I particularly wanted to get tournament player's thoughts on it (and Forgeworld buffing up Nids in general), based on Reecius' article above.
And yeah, Malanthrope looks like buttered bread dipped in gravy. A definite include in most lists, even just for that extra synapse!
The Dimachaeron is not a bad unit, he does fill a good niche for the Tyranid codex of being a great CC model adept at killing other big things. Surprisingly most single models for Nids are bad at that. But, in my personal opinion he does not change the power level of Tyranids at all. Is he worth his points yes, but no more so than some of the other options we can bring. I think you would get just as much mileage out of 200 points of poisoned gargoyles, or rending Raveners. The Dima's problem is that you have to go through a lot of extra effort to get his rules and his model, but he doesn't stand out as any better than some of the other options in the Fast Attack slot. So, me personally, I will be leaving him at home. If you have a ton of money to spend he can be fun to get, but from a financial perspective there is no reason to get the Dima instead of, say, 30 Gargoyles.
The Stonecrusher fex is slightly over rated in my mind. I used two of them in a game recently, and they did well. I killed a Knight on the charge that had suffered one Hull point previously, before he got to swing back thanks to Hammer of Wrath. But, using them once told me all I needed to. They are way too slow to keep up with the rest of my army personally, and they only saw action because my opponent came to me. With our need for cover, they have to hit area terrain but are too slow to do so efficiently. Once they were seen as a threat my opponent killed them. In a list designed for MC saturation they have potential, but in my list (4+ flyers and a Knight Titan) they are too slow to keep up with my assault and so fall behind. Again, in other lists they are potentially good, but not in mine.
The Malanthrope is amazing. I'm not the first or last to realize this, everyone knows it by now. I've only used it once but holy crap is it good. It frees up a Kill point, and is cheaper and more durable than a Venom+Zoey. My personal opinion is that a brood of two is perfect. It allows for a tough target and some good coverage of synapse/shrouded. I will be starting mine inside a Bastion and disembarking to move up the field and support for turns 2-3. They are just too amazing not to use, for every single Tyranid list out there. I bought my IA book already, its great.
LOVE LOVE LOVE the Malanthrope. Ordered 1 the night that the IA4 stuff leaked and have loved it in the two games I've proxied it whilst it ships to me.
It's probably one of the best support units in the game, the fact that it does all that a two Venomthropes do, but tougher, cheaper, and with Synapse is enough, but you put on top of that all the nifty little things like the challenge shennanigans, poisoned 2+, and the preferred enemy buff, and it's just amazing.
I think I'll be getting another one in the near future!
The malanthrope is a "must-take" no-brainer. He is a much, much, MUCH better version of the venomthrope and those guys were must-haves in practically every Tyranid army anyways.
The stonecrusher fex appears somewhat 1-dimensional IMO. While great at taking out armour, he isn't so good against infantry. Personally, for the same price, I'd take the dakkafex over him. The dakkafex is a much better TAC unit due to its ability to shoot as well as assault.
The dimachaeron does have potential to shine if properly supported, though I wouldn't say he is the most competitive unit. This guy is a cc-powerhouse in an army that ironically isn't all that great in assault anymore. He can also handle all but the AV14 vehicles. However, he will have problem surviving against the more shooty armies....though that is not necessarily a bad thing as it lets the rest of the army survive a little longer. Overall, I can see an army being built around it.
Too bad they don't have another super-shooter bug like the dakkarants or dakkafexes. The strength of the bugs is in its mobile shooting. In other words, maximize on the best unit in the dex, the dakka flyrant and you won't go wrong.
The stone crusher carnifexes are very very interesting. The Hammer of Wrath huts are almost better than the actual attacks. I need to test it, but the Flail seems like the way to go, since it's much harder to tar pit and it only loses a bit of effectiveness against vehicles.
The Malanthrope becomes so much more effective if you use it aggressively and join in charges with Devilfexes or other beefy assault units, sincetc it can help to neuter power fists, and let the other units do the heavy lifting and then dish out that juicy preferred enemy. I think two separate ones to spread the bubbles about are the way to go. I'm thinking of ditching my two single Zoeys and using a second one, and using the points for Adrenal Glands on a Tervigon or Tyrannofex.
The Malanthrope is nice, but nowhere near what some people think. It's a very playable Synapse option - not an auto-include, it's a nice 50 pt Venomthrope upgrade for some lists though. I don't personally like throwing away 50 pts pretty much for Synapse, choosing to find it elsewhere in the dex in ways that stand a better chance of making their points back. I'd also prefer 1 or 2 Venom over a Malanthrope. But combine these two things together and he might just be the right answer for some lists. Nothing game changing, and I still prefer Venom, but it is a usable option.
The Dima is ridiculously bad, with the main supporting argument for it appearing to be "But don't you see how good it is in close combat!". Yes, we know, but that's ignoring 6" movespeed and it's terrible durability, making this thing seeing an optimal combat, highly unlikely. Which is another note - if it's getting shot, this is definitely a bad thing, not a good thing for being a "fire magnet". It's 200 pts for 6 T6 wounds.that's the durability of a 140 pt Mawloc, except far less likely to do damage. It's less durable than the cheaper Tyrannofex. To sum things up its a monstrous size glass cannon that's impossible to hide, threatens nothing up until mid-late game, moves at 6" and is easily kiteable, and for some inexplicable reason was placed in the fast attack slot, clashing with the fact that all you can really take to support his speed issues is as many cheap Gargoyle tarpits as possible.
He will excel against low-level/unfamiliar players who feed Wraithknights and other expensive crap to him. This is a pretty inconsistent role to bank 200+ pts on for every Dima taken. He is top 3 worst units available to Nids.
While I appreciate that view Shuppet, I did read a lot of it in the Tyranid tactica thread, so maybe I should've phrased that I'd be interested in how people might use some of these units competitively. I can definitely see it's not the best unit out there, with some major weaknesses, but I'd like to hear how tournament players might try to use one. No harm if you don't like it, of course, but hopefully those who are interested in possibly using it can have a constructive discussion about the possibilities over here.
jifel- You don't think putting 2 Malanthropes in a Bastion is a bit of overkill? I'm totally putting one in, and I guess if you had 2 they could be more effective once you've moved up the field... but that seems like a pretty pricey way to go (85 + 85 + 75 for the Bastion = 245).
I like all the additions especially the Dimachaeron, I will copy and paste what I said about it in another thread. As far as the Mal it is an auto include in tyranids armies easily one of the best buff units in the game. The new carnifexes best attribute ironically is its defense - 1 to str to shooting weapons is deceptively useful and its hammer of wrath having ap 2 makes them decent in combat.
We are underestimating the leaper rule, its a jump pack that gives the Dimachaeron a guaranteed 6 inches of movement. It is not slowed down by being in difficult terrain and remember unlike a dakkafex you are not shooting any weapons so you will be running every turn and with fleet you should move around 10 inches a turn easy. Their 6 inch movement is better because it is jump pack like allowing you to take advantage of terrain easier especially los blocking terrain, as the threat of it jumping out of cover to assault becomes a serious issue. The guaranteed 6 inches out of cover followed by a charge with re-rolls due to fleet should mean you get in cc. If you place the objectives in the middle of the board the Dimachaeron will be a threat by turn 2 if your opponent is trying to claim objectives. Turn 3 the rest of your walking threats should be range to be a threat such as dakkafexes.
Secondily the stats of this thing is amazing for 10 points more than a trygon you get more wounds more attacks higher iniative at the same weapon skill as a Hive Tyrant. Which means its going to hit most things on a 3+ and wound on a 2+.
In cc is where the Dimachaeron shines, first off lets discuss the number of attacks it gets. The sickle claws and grasping talons should grant an extra attack, 1 more for charging, and up to 3 more for rampage thats up to 10 attacks on the charge! After that you are looking at a minimum of 7 a turn. It gets better when you charge with your 8-10 attacks they are resolved at strength 8, plus 1 because of FC and another 1 because of grasping talons. With the number of attacks you have you should roll a 6 to hit to activate the maw. This is a ruling question as it says the maw may target any none extremely bulky model if we get to select the model the instant death attack is really good. We simply target the model that has multi-wounds and no invulnerable save, and extremely bulky units is rarer than most think I believe centurions are very bulky. Either way you should be able to get feel no pain for 1-2 turns depending on what unit you charge. Sickle claws on the other hand is alot simpler on a wound roll of 4+ instant death. The Dimachaeron is design to instant kill stuff either with the talons with str 8 atks, the maw which depending on the ruling gets to target a model to instant kill, or if that is to difficult just roll a 4+ with the sickle claws.
This thing is going to be really good once players learn how to take advantage of its unique movement.
RiTides wrote: While I appreciate that view Shuppet, I did read a lot of it in the Tyranid tactica thread, so maybe I should've phrased that I'd be interested in how people might use some of these units competitively. I can definitely see it's not the best unit out there, with some major weaknesses, but I'd like to hear how tournament players might try to use one. No harm if you don't like it, of course, but hopefully those who are interested in possibly using it can have a constructive discussion about the possibilities over here.
jifel- You don't think putting 2 Malanthropes in a Bastion is a bit of overkill? I'm totally putting one in, and I guess if you had 2 they could be more effective once you've moved up the field... but that seems like a pretty pricey way to go (85 + 85 + 75 for the Bastion = 245).
The malanthropes will not stay in the Bastion, so I want to two to protect the unit once it gets out. A few markerlights and firewariors could kill a lone Malanthrope without much trouble, but that second one helps a lot. Sadly, I only have one converted at the moment which is troublesome for "running two" when I have a tourney on Saturday... I may scrap an old Walkrant and Green stuff him to heck. I still think the Bastion is worth it though as it will protect the Biovores and provide Line of Sight blocking to other units, plus lets me purchase Barricades.
Forgeworld rules strike again I suppose. Seems like forgeworld puts out mostly lemons, but the few units that get past RnD are -snip- auto includes. Bad rule writing all around.
Edit: Apparently you can't say Re re on the internet anymore.
Malanthropes are the real stars. For less points than a pair of Venomthropes you get something significantly better. Better base toughness, better save and synapse pretty much turn the Malanthrope into the must have for me.
Stonecrusher Fex...the more I consider it the more I find myself shying away from it. It suffers the same problems as a close combat fex but with the following flaws...
Its base cost is higher. No access to Adrenal glands - sure, you have increased Strength as base but the fleet reroll for running and charging sure would help an awful lot more...
It also effectively has 2 less attacks than a Carnifex. One less base and I realise that it will never claim the option for 2 CCWs. This makes it much, much less reliable in combat and much, much more dependant on its AP 2 HoW hits to have an impact.
The Dima - well, this thing has the close combat bug problem with a far, far steeper points cost for it. It seems like a gigantic pile of stats which are mostly redundant for what it does. I don't have much faith in Dima to be honest. The models size has me sad as I seriously wish they'd had just ramped it to 100 points more, upped its toughness and called it a Gargantuan Creature LoW - the Gargantuan Creature rules alone would have solved so many of its problems and would have given us something worth considering for that slot in a lower point range...
I refuse to play the Dimachaeron only because of how ridiculous it is for such a large model to only be able to "leap" as far as it would move if it "fell" forward on it's face. Just add whatever it would cost to make it a Beast to it's points total and call it a day. You could even get rid of (or not) the bonus to it's STR and strikedown on the charge...I could care less. It's a huge murderous looking monster that looks like it should be tearing lines of death across the battlefield, but in reality is only interested in taking one stride before making another deadly pose and roaring at the camera. Dreadfully stupid...
That's not to say I think it's super handicapped by the 6" leaping move. It does have fleet, as CKO points out...it'll get there. I just hate how DUMB it's movement turned out to be.
Malanthropes are great. Not sure they are auto include though.
Consider you can get almost 2 venomthropes for the cost of one. They still are not immune to ID, but at toughness 5 only str 10 and weapons that ID are IDing them. Prey adaption will almost never come into play as they have to kill something for it to work. its actually arguably worse in Assault as it doesn't have lash whip and grasping tail doesn't automatically always go off, the 2+ poisoned attacks is the same as the venomthrope and they both have toxic miasma.
It does have a better save, 3+ versus 5+ and more wounds higher S/T and move through cover, SiTW[which is much nuetered now] and synapse.
Overall its better than a venomthrope in pretty much every way, other than assault. I think it comes down to what do you want it for. Most people take venomthropes for the cover save, which is mostly why you would be taking the malanthrope. If you want that cover to move up, some malanthropes are better than venomthropes. if you have stuff you want to hang out of LOS to fire off barrages, or put in a bastion, venomthrope is probably still fine and saves you points.
The Dima is pretty amazing, but costs a lot. Obviously its also slow, yeah it can jump 6" But that's still 6" and now your rolling DT tests if you are starting or ending in terrain/cover, so its only really great for ignoring terrain in the way. As the jump is 6" that wont be happening often unless you are jumping over small walls. I guess you could jump up onto skyshields or battlements.
The Dima is interesting because its difficult to tarpit. It gets a good amount of base attacks, has an extra set of CC weapons, can opt between doing the spine maw strike which can also try to swallow things, or doing the sickle strike which may come with ID on it. Short of dreadnaught with an Inv save (hello incoming sw shield and axe dread ...) theres not much that is tarpiting this thing.
The one thing that would make the Dima really good, would be flesh hooks...and of course wings or moving like a beast, but flesh hooks would have been nice.
I thought I saw somewhere that the spores were updated as well?
The Dima is pretty amazing, but costs a lot. Obviously its also slow, yeah it can jump 6" But that's still 6" and now your rolling DT tests if you are starting or ending in terrain/cover, so its only really great for ignoring terrain in the way. As the jump is 6" that wont be happening often unless you are jumping over small walls. I guess you could jump up onto skyshields or battlements.
MC's have Move Through Cover so DT isn't an issue.
Sorry RiTides, didn't realise you had followed the Tyranid Strategy thread and still wanted to discuss how you use them, I thought this was more a question on whether they were good models or not.
If I was going to run the Dima, hes overpriced defensively and offensively and this is silly to argue, so taking this into account the list needs to be built around the decisions and map control he forces which is what he does best. Running 1 will just be an expensive waste of wounds, I think 2-3 minimum is necessary. I think my build look something like this:
It wants to be capable of fighting and even punishing a backfield deployment, Mawlocs do this great for him and tarpit extremely well regardless of the situation, and are almost never anything but really cost effective. It's also putting down 18 T6 wounds turn 2 in the middle of their army (assuming 3 out of 4 come in from reserves), 26 if you include the Flyrants, this may force your opponent to focus something other than Dimas, although I think a good player will still just finish at least one the Dimas before they do anything. The other good thing about Mawlocs is that they do a massive burst damage turn 2, combined with Flyrants may be just enough to water down incoming fire to allow the Dimas to assault turn 3, through virtue of also having the 3+ cover save thanks to Thrope + screen. Hormagants are there to screen the Dimas, not sure if they are big enough, if not a unit of Gargs (or turning one of your troops into Warriors) is worthwhile for that 3+ cover save. I'm also not sure on the size of Dima model so IF he is big enough to block LoS to a Venomthrope but not big enough to block a Malanthrope, than the Venom is a better choice here, and change one of the units of Horms or Rippers into Warriors, for Synapse. This list assumes you either can or can't block LoS to BOTH of them. 3 Dimas might be better than 2 but would require dropping a Mawloc, making the Biovores extremely cost in-effecient at basically a 200 pt squad when you factor in the Ripper tax for dual CAD, make single FOC probably the better option if you go this route. You also probably only need one Flyrant the second is for dual FOC, so there is different ways to achieve what this list is trying to do, look at it as a building block. This list comes out just below 1850, I'm not going to dedicate too much time to tightening it up but you get the idea of how I feel the best way to play him would be.
So how exactly is does dropping 3/4 of your Mawloc tarpits and a full squad of Biovores, for 2 extra Flyrants, at all beneficial for the Dimas? And then, with 14 wounds of Flying Synapse and only 2 units in the entire codex needing it's Synapse, why is there 170 pts of Bastion antics dedicated to doing just this? A Venom with LoS blocked saves you the points cost of the Biovores or even another Mawloc here if you go without AG. And if the cover save is worth that much to you, why did you swap out the Hormagant screens for 2 more Ripper squads?
Is there any actual logic behind those changes or is it just the regular "spam Flyrants/make sure all troops are Rippers/always have a Thrope in a bastion" advice for every single list ever? Because for this list iin particular it especially seems to stand out pretty shortsighted advice, unless I'm missing something here. The one good suggestion was AG on the Mawloc, which I would have included if it fit. The Flyrants are the least questionable thing you changed because they are so aggressive and can thin numbers out quite well, but after the first two I don't see how putting ALL your points into the basket of paying 20 pts per S6 AP- shot is going to be better than far more efficiently covering a broader range of targets with the Biovore squad and the Mawlocs? You are already getting dimishing returns on Powers and Synapse, this isn't like FMC spam where everything is flying, 2 units in that list stand out as pretty sore thumbs to be nailed by every single AT they have, making their role one even a Tyrannofex would do better in this list. Leaving you very very quickly with 900 points of units capable of threatening ANYTHING. Seems like a recipe for disaster tbqh, but maybe I just missed the logic behind this decision (which if I did, it is entirely because the only explanation you gave was "no, spam Flyrants instead!$$")
jy2 wrote: If I were to go dual-CAD, then there is no question which unit I would spam (and no, it isn't the mawlocs). At 1850 2x CAD, I'd go like this:
Mawloc - Adrenal Glands (so that he could more reliably kill tanks should he opt to stay on the table)
Bastion
1849
I'd really be tempted to drop the bastion and mawloc and get some decent troops. Saturation of small units would work wonders with the rest of the mc's in that list.
SHUPPET wrote: Sorry RiTides, didn't realise you had followed the Tyranid Strategy thread and still wanted to discuss how you use them, I thought this was more a question on whether they were good models or not.
If I was going to run the Dima, hes overpriced defensively and offensively and this is silly to argue, so taking this into account the list needs to be built around the decisions and map control he forces which is what he does best. Running 1 will just be an expensive waste of wounds, I think 2-3 minimum is necessary. I think my build look something like this:
It wants to be capable of fighting and even punishing a backfield deployment, Mawlocs do this great for him and tarpit extremely well regardless of the situation, and are almost never anything but really cost effective. It's also putting down 18 T6 wounds turn 2 in the middle of their army (assuming 3 out of 4 come in from reserves), 26 if you include the Flyrants, this may force your opponent to focus something other than Dimas, although I think a good player will still just finish at least one the Dimas before they do anything. The other good thing about Mawlocs is that they do a massive burst damage turn 2, combined with Flyrants may be just enough to water down incoming fire to allow the Dimas to assault turn 3, through virtue of also having the 3+ cover save thanks to Thrope + screen. Hormagants are there to screen the Dimas, not sure if they are big enough, if not a unit of Gargs (or turning one of your troops into Warriors) is worthwhile for that 3+ cover save. I'm also not sure on the size of Dima model so IF he is big enough to block LoS to a Venomthrope but not big enough to block a Malanthrope, than the Venom is a better choice here, and change one of the units of Horms or Rippers into Warriors, for Synapse. This list assumes you either can or can't block LoS to BOTH of them. 3 Dimas might be better than 2 but would require dropping a Mawloc, making the Biovores extremely cost in-effecient at basically a 200 pt squad when you factor in the Ripper tax for dual CAD, make single FOC probably the better option if you go this route. You also probably only need one Flyrant the second is for dual FOC, so there is different ways to achieve what this list is trying to do, look at it as a building block. This list comes out just below 1850, I'm not going to dedicate too much time to tightening it up but you get the idea of how I feel the best way to play him would be.
You sure don't know how to make a list without spamming units x3 onwards
Flyrant with eg
Malanthrope
Malanthrope
Rippers with DS Rippers with DS Dima
Dima
+ stock Skyblight formation
It has good speed, lots of opportunity for shrouded (1 malanthrope can stay with a Dima each for synapse), 5 FMC and 5 OS units
This comes in at 1745 so you have points to spare if you play 1850
I'd have to chime in and say this seems to be stronger to me, at least on paper. Maybe squeeze some points to add in the second flyrant if it's there. It has plenty of target saturation, OS units, and threats that must be dealt with. All without relying on finnicky reserve rolls.
jy2 wrote: If I were to go dual-CAD, then there is no question which unit I would spam (and no, it isn't the mawlocs). At 1850 2x CAD, I'd go like this:
3x Rippers - DS 3x Rippers - DS 3x Rippers - DS 3x Rippers
Do not understand the Ripper obsession. You need Gaunts to bubble-wrap against things like drop pods and scouting bikes. 1 maybe 2 squads of rippers might make sense if your opponent's ignore them aka doesn't know WTF they are doing, but This list is just begging to get alpha struck.
Just wanted to say guys, this is all very helpful, so thanks for considering how you would run these!
Jy2 would you mind if I posted the single CAD list you shared with me for running 2 Dimas? I'm really considering giving it a try
Shuppet, I like where you're going with that list, but I feel like with the Dimas basically alone on the board, they're going to get shot to pieces? My thinking of how to best support them was to run Tyrannofexes alongside. With that sweet 2+ save model in front of them, and Malanthrope behind, a Dima could advance right behind the Tyrannofexes and then leap over them on the critical turn!
I don't know if I can get behind the Bastion idea anymore. With the apparent shift to alpha striking armies that are all packing strong melta groups, it seems very likely you'll just lose the bastion and whatever was hiding inside on the first turn; unless you bubble wrap it with gaunt squads (which no lists seem to be doing)
if the point of the list is to get the Dima across the table I am not sure many of those lists are any good.
Most of them come down to a lot of the army being reserved or flying, so you have few targets on the ground, one of which is the Dima. In some cases the only target on the ground is the Dima. I see it getting shot to bits a lot. Which I guess is okay for your other stuff to survive but it defeats the purpose of building a list to support the Dima.
RiTides wrote:Shuppet, I like where you're going with that list, but I feel like with the Dimas basically alone on the board, they're going to get shot to pieces? My thinking of how to best support them was to run Tyrannofexes alongside. With that sweet 2+ save model in front of them, and Malanthrope behind, a Dima could advance right behind the Tyrannofexes and then leap over them on the critical turn!
The thing is, they are obviously still going to be able to draw line of sight to the Dima with a Tyrannofex screen or not, and the Hormagants leave the Dima in the exact same position - 3+ cover. Tyrannofex not running every turn is just going to slow the Dima down if you use him as a shield - and it's MAJORLY important that you run with your Dima and shoot with your TFex, or else both are bad investments. HormGants not only being cheap meat shields, also provide bubblewrap, AND have that bonus to run so that unlike other units who you may use as a running screen, it's unlikely they will ever roll less than the Dima and hold him back a few inches. He's too slow as it is and you can't afford not to run. Also as I think others have mentioned... There's no real way to leap over anything, because of his MC base the back of his base pretty much ends where the front of it started! Not a very well conceived rule for him unfortunately lol.
Plus, I think the issue with Dima is that deploying backfield is a great way for your opponents to counter your investment. Practically every army outranges us, and even some of the midranged ones will just deploy backfield when you put 400 points into a 6" move speed CC Deathstar - I learnt this the hard way with last eds Swarmlord. Putting a bunch of points into 18" threats (Carnifex & Tyranno) just amplifies this issue. Flyrant do a decent job of mitigating it, but I personally feel that more than 2 is often wasted points - hence why I think Mawlocs and Biovores are the answer, you can force then to deploy backfield and lose all board control, or deploy closer and eat a Dima faster. Yes, they will shoot at it - this is the flaw with the model - and no amount of MCs other than more Dimas will increase the chances of your Dimas surviving - Tyrannofex or not, a good opponent is shooting right past them and blasting at the Dima's anyway. The only real option is to do as much damage as you can to lessen the incoming fire, spamming Flyrants like jy2 suggested isn't a bad option, I think 2 is enough combined with Mawloc and Biovore blasts, but I also think the Mawlocs are great for tarpits which is what you need for Dima because like the Swarmlord, anything it approaches is moving 6" away from it before shooting, just to slow down that charge.
I threw my list together sort of hastily just based on the concepts I feel are necessary for him. In hindsight I think I'd probably run 3, dual FOC so I can take Garg TarPits, cut down the number of Mawlocs and add more Flyrants. One or two Mawlocs is probably enough and jy2 might have a point in his unexplained changes to my list, for helping Dimas they do rely heavily on luck although they have the potential to do it best, I'm thinking maybe more turn 1 threats for the biggest alpha strike possible is the way to go. The more I look at it, the more I think adding an extra Flyrant or two may not be such a bad thing here. I'm willing to admit when I made a hasty conclusion! Haha. Anyway I'm rambling, but just sharing thoughts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How do people feel about running 6 Dimas, 2 Flyrants, and 4 Rippers for exactly 1850 points lol
SHUPPET wrote: Sorry RiTides, didn't realise you had followed the Tyranid Strategy thread and still wanted to discuss how you use them, I thought this was more a question on whether they were good models or not.
If I was going to run the Dima, hes overpriced defensively and offensively and this is silly to argue, so taking this into account the list needs to be built around the decisions and map control he forces which is what he does best. Running 1 will just be an expensive waste of wounds, I think 2-3 minimum is necessary. I think my build look something like this:
It wants to be capable of fighting and even punishing a backfield deployment, Mawlocs do this great for him and tarpit extremely well regardless of the situation, and are almost never anything but really cost effective. It's also putting down 18 T6 wounds turn 2 in the middle of their army (assuming 3 out of 4 come in from reserves), 26 if you include the Flyrants, this may force your opponent to focus something other than Dimas, although I think a good player will still just finish at least one the Dimas before they do anything. The other good thing about Mawlocs is that they do a massive burst damage turn 2, combined with Flyrants may be just enough to water down incoming fire to allow the Dimas to assault turn 4, through virtue of also having the 3+ cover save thanks to Thrope + screen. Hormagants are there to screen the Dimas, not sure if they are big enough, if not a unit of Gargs (or turning one of your troops into Warriors) is worthwhile for that 3+ cover save. I'm also not sure on the size of Dima model so IF he is big enough to block LoS to a Venomthrope but not big enough to block a Malanthrope, than the Venom is a better choice here, and change one of the units of Horms or Rippers into Warriors, for Synapse. This list assumes you either can or can't block LoS to BOTH of them. 3 Dimas might be better than 2 but would require dropping a Mawloc, making the Biovores extremely cost in-effecient at basically a 200 pt squad when you factor in the Ripper tax for dual CAD, make single FOC probably the better option if you go this route. You also probably only need one Flyrant the second is for dual FOC, so there is different ways to achieve what this list is trying to do, look at it as a building block. This list comes out just below 1850, I'm not going to dedicate too much time to tightening it up but you get the idea of how I feel the best way to play him would be.
You sure don't know how to make a list without spamming units x3 onwards
Hello, KurtAngle2! We havent had interactions before, but it's an absolute pleasure to meet you, and I can just tell that you are going to be sharing so many thought provoking contributions to this thread, that I decided I should formerly greet you, and kindly inform you that I have exalted your post, and do hope to see it in the Most Popular category soon!
Fast
Dima 200
Dima 200
Hive crone, with stinger spines 165
Biovore 40
Biovore 40
cost -1850
Thoughts on above list- Each list is made up of a node of 1 Dima, supported by 1 mal and wrapped with 20 Hormagants. The hormagaunts will of course outpace both but thats fine since the Dima and mal will catch up a turn later while the Hormagants hold something(s) in place for assault. They can in turn have support from a flyrant each. Biovores can bomb the enemies backfield a little to try and put hurt on mobs/ long range shooty things. Terv, termagants, and hivecrone can support whichever sides needs help, and the rippers are there to contest/take an objective/force your opponent to shoot at a 45pt unit instead of something else.
Lots of target saturation that starts on board, 3 psykers for a total of 5 WC, 3 flyers, 5 models with synapse.
Doesn't look bad at all, logic behind it all is solid. One Crone is likely to do very little however, I think that and the Tervigon are for the most part better off as more threats. Unfortunately it probably will take a dual FOC . I think more Biovores and a Mawloc in the Heavies and a Harpy instead of the Crone is a good start. Harpies screech means you can't strike at the same time as a unit in Terrain with Dinas, gonna be important.
jy2 wrote: If I were to go dual-CAD, then there is no question which unit I would spam (and no, it isn't the mawlocs). At 1850 2x CAD, I'd go like this:
Mawloc - Adrenal Glands (so that he could more reliably kill tanks should he opt to stay on the table)
Bastion
1849
SHUPPET wrote: So how exactly is does dropping 3/4 of your Mawloc tarpits and a full squad of Biovores, for 2 extra Flyrants, at all beneficial for the Dimas? And then, with 14 wounds of Flying Synapse and only 2 units in the entire codex needing it's Synapse, why is there 170 pts of Bastion antics dedicated to doing just this? A Venom with LoS blocked saves you the points cost of the Biovores or even another Mawloc here if you go without AG. And if the cover save is worth that much to you, why did you swap out the Hormagant screens for 2 more Ripper squads?
Is there any actual logic behind those changes or is it just the regular "spam Flyrants/make sure all troops are Rippers/always have a Thrope in a bastion" advice for every single list ever? Because for this list iin particular it especially seems to stand out pretty shortsighted advice, unless I'm missing something here. The one good suggestion was AG on the Mawloc, which I would have included if it fit. The Flyrants are the least questionable thing you changed because they are so aggressive and can thin numbers out quite well, but after the first two I don't see how putting ALL your points into the basket of paying 20 pts per S6 AP- shot is going to be better than far more efficiently covering a broader range of targets with the Biovore squad and the Mawlocs? You are already getting dimishing returns on Powers and Synapse, this isn't like FMC spam where everything is flying, 2 units in that list stand out as pretty sore thumbs to be nailed by every single AT they have, making their role one even a Tyrannofex would do better in this list. Leaving you very very quickly with 900 points of units capable of threatening ANYTHING. Seems like a recipe for disaster tbqh, but maybe I just missed the logic behind this decision (which if I did, it is entirely because the only explanation you gave was "no, spam Flyrants instead!$$")
1. You have 4 forwards threats on Turn 1. I repeat, on TURN 1.
2. Due to them being FMC's, flyrants have more resiliency than both the dima or mawlocs. You will be doing a lot of shooting the entire game. That really adds up. There is no wasted offense with the flyrants. That's 48 TL S6 shots a turn, every turn, in addition to psychic powers that can do damage or screw with your opponent.
3. Psychic amplification. More chances to get Catalyst, meaning you could potentially FNP both dimas to increase their chances of making it into combat. Also, if you get multiple Psychic Screams, that could really help against infantry-based armies. Other powers could be great in the right situation.
4. Flyrants can act as the screening units for the dimas to provide them with cover. This is how you deploy. Bastion near ruins. Dimas in/on ruins for 2+ shrouded cover and then flyrants behind them and/or bastion. On your Turn 1, flyrants then leapfrog the dimas and into shooting range, all the while maintaining an optimal position to give your dimas cover. BTW, if you get Catalyst, you can put it on the dimas as well for 3+ shrouded cover and then 5+ FNP.
5. With regards to your list, why rely on a reserves-heavy tactic without any ways of manipulating reserves? While you are hoping 3/4 of your army will come in on Turn 2, it is also possible that 3/4 of your army just may come in on Turn 4. That's not what I call a good tarpit strategy. If you want to go reserve-heavy, you need the Comms Relay. Either that or pray that you get the right Warlord trait.
6. Malanthrope should advance with the dimas on Turn 2, when your opponent has to deal with the flyrants in his backfield. Just make sure the end of the dima's bases on within 6" of the bastion after their Run moves on Turn 1 (quite easy to do, considering how large their bases are). Then you can have 1 unit of troops embark onto the bastion. Also, here's a trick that you can employ. When placing objectives, place one behind your bastion. This way, even if you don't have any units near/in the bastion, your bastion will still be claiming the objective.
jy2 wrote: If I were to go dual-CAD, then there is no question which unit I would spam (and no, it isn't the mawlocs). At 1850 2x CAD, I'd go like this:
Mawloc - Adrenal Glands (so that he could more reliably kill tanks should he opt to stay on the table)
Bastion
1849
I'd really be tempted to drop the bastion and mawloc and get some decent troops. Saturation of small units would work wonders with the rest of the mc's in that list.
That's an option, though I have found the bastion to be a great force-multiplication unit (FMU) that has helped to make my entire army much, much tougher. I usually value FMU's much higher than I do regarding any single one unit and thus have chosen to run my lists with minimum troops and more FMU's (flyrants, bastion, malanthrope, etc.).
I do see your logic with the Flyrants jy2 and I think you are very right. However I still don't agree on throwing that many points away to the bastion combo, when there's plenty of ways to do it without bringing a list -100 pts or whatever, but no real point in arguing that one lol. I like your deployment strategy but I think on top of doing that I'd rather secure the cover save for 5 pts and provide bubble wrap and a faster way out of 30 wound tarpits and a way to take the over watch, I think you'd be crazy not to there is no way rippers are outdoing those Horms in this list. I think you are very right and 4 Flyrants is a very good way to support the Dimas, more so than the Mawlocs even. However
you are hoping 3/4 of your army will come in on Turn 2, it is also possible that 3/4 of your army just may come in on Turn 4. That's not what I call a good tarpit strategy.
Yeah and it's equally as likely that you will fail 3/4 of the grounding checks with your Flyrants till turn 3, why are you taking wings if you could easily just end up having to play them like Dakkafexes?
Statistics and probability says neither of these things will happen very often. If I fail 1/3 reserve checks so be it - the points for a comms relay bastion is the price of another Mawloc with a 2/3 chance to hit the field. Even if it comes in the turn after - it stands the chance to earn it's points back, unlike the bastion. I'd be crippling my list by bringing it (if that was still my list, was like a 2min rough draft more to communicate how I felt you should play the model).
It seems we are on the same page of how the Dima needs to be played to be honest, just not on a couple of other things lol ah well all personal preference I guess.
Fast
Dima 200
Dima 200
Hive crone, with stinger spines 165
Biovore 40
Biovore 40
cost -1850
Thoughts on above list- Each list is made up of a node of 1 Dima, supported by 1 mal and wrapped with 20 Hormagants. The hormagaunts will of course outpace both but thats fine since the Dima and mal will catch up a turn later while the Hormagants hold something(s) in place for assault. They can in turn have support from a flyrant each. Biovores can bomb the enemies backfield a little to try and put hurt on mobs/ long range shooty things. Terv, termagants, and hivecrone can support whichever sides needs help, and the rippers are there to contest/take an objective/force your opponent to shoot at a 45pt unit instead of something else.
Lots of target saturation that starts on board, 3 psykers for a total of 5 WC, 3 flyers, 5 models with synapse.
Got my shiny new Malanthrope yesterday. Very nice model. Really excited to put him on the table top. Every time I look at his statline and abilities I am just stunned by how over the top he is.They could have removed so many of his little trinket abilities, or even reduced his stats by quite a bit, and he would still be worth the points.
jy2 wrote: If I were to go dual-CAD, then there is no question which unit I would spam (and no, it isn't the mawlocs). At 1850 2x CAD, I'd go like this:
3x Rippers - DS 3x Rippers - DS 3x Rippers - DS 3x Rippers
Do not understand the Ripper obsession. You need Gaunts to bubble-wrap against things like drop pods and scouting bikes. 1 maybe 2 squads of rippers might make sense if your opponent's ignore them aka doesn't know WTF they are doing, but This list is just begging to get alpha struck.
If you're really concerned about bubble-wrapping, then you can swap out 1 or 2 units of rippers for some gants. It's not a big deal.
Personally, I'm actually not too concerned about bubble wrapping. 6-7 MC's (depending if you want to reserve the mawloc or not) + 1 or 2 units of rippers starting off on the table is generally more than enough to bubble-wrap the bastion if you're really concerned about deepstriking armies. Not only that, but those MC's can provide cover for your bastion as well. BTW, deploy your bastion near board edges or certain terrain (i.e. impassable) and then it becomes even easier to bubble-wrap it. If they go for the flyrants, then jink for 2+ cover. Just make sure to put the bastion near terrain so the dimas can deploy in it.
I recently played against 4 alpha-strike marine armies (with all of them going 1st) at a tournament - 2 drop pod armies, 1 White Scars bike army and a centurionstar with Gate of Infinity - and I've come to realize that an Tyranid army utilizing the venom/malan-in-a-bastion strategy is actually pretty darn resilient, even to enemy alpha-strike lists.
RiTides wrote: Just wanted to say guys, this is all very helpful, so thanks for considering how you would run these!
Jy2 would you mind if I posted the single CAD list you shared with me for running 2 Dimas? I'm really considering giving it a try
Shuppet, I like where you're going with that list, but I feel like with the Dimas basically alone on the board, they're going to get shot to pieces? My thinking of how to best support them was to run Tyrannofexes alongside. With that sweet 2+ save model in front of them, and Malanthrope behind, a Dima could advance right behind the Tyrannofexes and then leap over them on the critical turn!
That's a lot of beef coming up the middle! But maybe a Crone and a Mawloc would be better than the Dakkafexes, to spread out the points?
After thinking about this list some more, I'm not so sure about the t-fex and dima combination. I suppose it's ok, but if you are planning to use the t-fexes as mobile cover, then he will actually slow down the dimas. If you deploy the dimas behind the t-fexes, that means they've got an additional 4-5" to go in order to reach the enemy. Moreover, if you roll poorly for the t-fexes' Run move, or if the t-fex stops to shoot, then it acts as a bottleneck for the dimas. So in this list, it is better to run the t-fexes and dimas side-by-side and to use the flyrants as mobile cover for the dimas instead.
omerakk wrote: I don't know if I can get behind the Bastion idea anymore. With the apparent shift to alpha striking armies that are all packing strong melta groups, it seems very likely you'll just lose the bastion and whatever was hiding inside on the first turn; unless you bubble wrap it with gaunt squads (which no lists seem to be doing)
Playing against alpha-strike armies is always a concern, but perhaps it is better for deepstriking meltas to go after the bastion than, say, your flyrants starting off on the ground?
Also, you can get creative against these types of armies. I had a game where I deployed the bastion, 1 flyrant and some Skyblight gargoyles on the opposite flank of where I placed my objective. Turn 1, 2 units of 10 sternguards and 1 unit of tactical marines drop in to go after my bastion and flyrant. Sure they took out my flyrant, but then I abandoned the bastion and focused on the objectives instead. Now he's got 30 marines (as well as 1 ObSec drop pod) in no-man's-land that were out of the action for the entire game as he struggled to get them back into the action (though game ended before they could).
But my list is just an idea. You can swap out some rippers for more gants if you don't feel comfortable about it.
blaktoof wrote: if the point of the list is to get the Dima across the table I am not sure many of those lists are any good.
Most of them come down to a lot of the army being reserved or flying, so you have few targets on the ground, one of which is the Dima. In some cases the only target on the ground is the Dima. I see it getting shot to bits a lot. Which I guess is okay for your other stuff to survive but it defeats the purpose of building a list to support the Dima.
Unfortunately, there is no avoiding it. Your dimas WILL get shot to heck. People are so psychologically afraid of it that they will focus on it. However, if they do so, then they've got the wrong target prioritization down. A dima with 3+ cover and potentially FNP from a flyrant takes a huge amount of firepower to take out. Meanwhile, the rest of your army is safe to advance and in the case of the flyrant, free to continue providing consistent offense.
The purpose of the dima isn't necessarily to kill stuff in combat, though he can do that exceptionally well. What he is to the army is another threat that just cannot be ignored, even if he isn't the fastest bug around. He will DEMAND attention from the opponent and he can soak up quite a bit of damage. The real secret as to why he is good is because he will allow the flyrants to continue functioning as the main offense of the army and to do so unmolested. And if your dima actually makes it into combat, then I actually consider that a bonus.
SHUPPET wrote: I do see your logic with the Flyrants jy2 and I think you are very right.
It seems we are on the same page of how the Dima needs to be played to be honest, just not on a couple of other things lol ah well all personal preference I guess.
Thank you. I knew you'd come around to seeing it my way. Well, the main part, that is.
blaktoof wrote: if the point of the list is to get the Dima across the table I am not sure many of those lists are any good.
Most of them come down to a lot of the army being reserved or flying, so you have few targets on the ground, one of which is the Dima. In some cases the only target on the ground is the Dima. I see it getting shot to bits a lot. Which I guess is okay for your other stuff to survive but it defeats the purpose of building a list to support the Dima.
Unfortunately, there is no avoiding it. Your dimas WILL get shot to heck. People are so psychologically afraid of it that they will focus on it. However, if they do so, then they've got the wrong target prioritization down. A dima with 3+ cover and potentially FNP from a flyrant takes a huge amount of firepower to take out. Meanwhile, the rest of your army is safe to advance and in the case of the flyrant, free to continue providing consistent offense.
The purpose of the dima isn't necessarily to kill stuff in combat, though he can do that exceptionally well. What he is to the army is another threat that just cannot be ignored, even if he isn't the fastest bug around. He will DEMAND attention from the opponent and he can soak up quite a bit of damage. The real secret as to why he is good is because he will allow the flyrants to continue functioning as the main offense of the army and to do so unmolested. And if your dima actually makes it into combat, then I actually consider that a bonus.
I see his point of view. I think a Nidzilla list might be a better utilization of the of the Dima. I just am not seeing alot of synergy with Flying circus.
Spoiler:
HQ:
The Swarmlord -> Preferred enemy would be a buff to the Dimachaeron
+ 2 Tyrant Guard
Tervigon (E. Grubs)
After watching a trio of games using Maelstrom missions, I`m convinced the Dima will be a much stronger choice in 7th edition. Now instead of placing objectives super aggressively in the opponents deployment zone so you can be there at the end of the game to score, Tyranids will place objectives in their own deployment zone/midfield, forcing enemies to come to them.
I see his point of view. I think a Nidzilla list might be a better utilization of the of the Dima. I just am not seeing alot of synergy with Flying circus.
Spoiler:
HQ:
The Swarmlord -> Preferred enemy would be a buff to the Dimachaeron
+ 2 Tyrant Guard
Tervigon (E. Grubs)
There are a lot of armies that are going to have trouble with that many MC's. And your Dima's are going to see combat.
Drop a Carnifex for a bastion with a Void Shield and barricades if you want, or if you fear Knights, you can Swap a Carnifex for a Stone Crusher.
Using a Dima as a distraction unit to draw fire away from Flyrants just isn't really taking advantage of what it does well.
Either ways, if the opponent wants to shoot at the dimas, they will, no matter if you are running a flying list or a walking list. The difference is this:
With a flying list like my quad-flyrant one, the flyrants are up in your opponent's face on Turn 1. If he wants to shoot at the dimas, then he does so at the risk of flyrants assaulting and shooting each and every turn. The flyrants stand to do much more damage whereas the dimas are not a threat, at least not until T3 most likely. Thus, if he picks his target prioritization properly, the dimas should stand a decent chance of making it into the action.
Against a primarily walking list (not necessarily yours, but something like it), there is no urgency in target prioritization. Your opponent can take his time to shoot down the dimas with no pressure to his army. Thus, the dimas are much less likely to make it into any type of action in this type of list, especially if your opponent chooses to prioritize them first as a target. BTW, this type of list will have almost NO chance against the likes of the more shooty armies like Tau, mechdar and DE venom-spam.
I'm actually well behind what jy2 is saying here for once , except for kind of the part where Dimas are the wrong target priority, they are very points effecient to shoot at... But then again Flyrants are usually high priority targets, so if you are diverting fire from them it's pretty much a 12 W buffer making your Flyrants very durable. So there is some truth to the statement it's not very points effecient however. I think it's all the more reason you can't afford to waste points on the bastion, 2 Dimas puts you on a low level of threats till mid-late game, another 200 pts or so supporting them with bastion shenanigans could easily have been tweaked into another Dima or at the very least, the squad of Biovores. Almost every list should run at least one squad of Biovores they always make their points back and Hardcounter most Ruin-dwellers. The reason you've found your Bastion so survivable - is because it's wasted points! They only way for it to make it's points back is if they DO waste enough firepower on it to kill it IMO. I don't think it's a terrible strategy FYI it can be a solid way to protect and extend your Thrope investment, I'm different to most as I do not enjoy investing too much into the cover-cloud strategy as there is too much cover ignoring to guarantee your investment! 1x 45 points of Venomthrope is always worth it because not everything ignores cover, he forces an extra Markerlight or two, and wastes at least one full units shooting if they kill it (sometimes more relevant than others) and with LoS blocking sometimes out lives my expectations. However the whole bastion trick I find unreliable, I build TAC and against some armies it's ~150 points wasted - too much.
I see his point of view. I think a Nidzilla list might be a better utilization of the of the Dima. I just am not seeing alot of synergy with Flying circus.
[spoiler]HQ: The Swarmlord -> Preferred enemy would be a buff to the Dimachaeron + 2 Tyrant Guard Tervigon (E. Grubs)
Elite Malanthrope Malanthrope
Troop 12 HGaunt 12 HGaunt
Fast Dimachaeron Dimachaeron 20 Gargoyles
Heavy: Carnifex (2 Tl-Devourers) Carnifex (2 Tl-Devourers) Carnifex (2 Tl-Devourers) There are a lot of armies that are going to have trouble with that many MC's. And your Dima's are going to see combat.
Drop a Carnifex for a bastion with a Void Shield and barricades if you want, or if you fear Knights, you can Swap a Carnifex for a Stone Crusher.
Using a Dima as a distraction unit to draw fire away from Flyrants just isn't really taking advantage of what it does well.
Either ways, if the opponent wants to shoot at the dimas, they will, no matter if you are running a flying list or a walking list. The difference is this:
With a flying list like my quad-flyrant one, the flyrants are up in your opponent's face on Turn 1. If he wants to shoot at the dimas, then he does so at the risk of flyrants assaulting and shooting each and every turn. The flyrants stand to do much more damage whereas the dimas are not a threat, at least not until T3 most likely. Thus, if he picks his target prioritization properly, the dimas should stand a decent chance of making it into the action. [/spoiler] Against a primarily walking list (not necessarily yours, but something like it), there is no urgency in target prioritization. Your opponent can take his time to shoot down the dimas with no pressure to his army. Thus, the dimas are much less likely to make it into any type of action in this type of list, especially if your opponent chooses to prioritize them first as a target. BTW, this type of list will have almost NO chance against the likes of the more shooty armies like Tau, mechdar and DE venom-spam.
I agree 100%. I wrote a little paragraph detailing the matchup problems, and then deleted it. Slow MC's get dominated by such lists. The Dima is a slow MC.
On the other hand, your 4 Flyrant list doesn't exactly dominate Tau either. 3 Burst Tides + 3 Missile Sides + Buffmander + 2 Skyrays + Marker lights is taking down 1-2 Flyrants and a Dima every turn. Everything Tyranids have, Tau have an answer to. You fare marginally better against Mechdar because at least you can hit back a bit more.
On the topic of Target prioritization. Your 4 Flyrant list would be better with Crones instead of Dima's because 1) the Dima's aren't properly supported. 2) the Crones match the flyrants in speed, and give the opponent a more challenging target prioritization. My Nidzilla list is packed with redundancy making target prioritization a problem. We've got 3 terrifying assault units (2 Dimas, Swarmlord), 3 high firepower shooty units (Dakkafexes), and 4 Durable Syanpse units (Swarmlord, Tervigon, 2 Malenthrope). What are you going to shoot first?
Are 4 Flyrants better than Nidzilla? Definitely. But do 4 Flyrants work well with 2 Dimas? I don't really think so. It seems to me, Dimas have Nidzilla written all over them, and aren't as good as Dakkafexes in other Tyranid lists, because of the extra one to two turns before they can contribute. Dakkafexes are plenty deadly in assault. The Dima has the problem of not being able to stick in assault. Most assaults are going to end on the first turn meaning it can never avoid the opponent's shooting phase.
6ish wounds before saves/FNP against WS4/T4 assuming on the charge/10ish attacks (iirc?), so yeah pretty much over if you're running into MSU marine units, but he should finish the combat during opponent's turn if there are more guys to chew up.
so, he's overkill in CC on the units he's likely to catch, if he can actually catch them. oh, tyranids, you so funny.
omerakk wrote: I don't know if I can get behind the Bastion idea anymore. With the apparent shift to alpha striking armies that are all packing strong melta groups, it seems very likely you'll just lose the bastion and whatever was hiding inside on the first turn; unless you bubble wrap it with gaunt squads (which no lists seem to be doing)
Are you saying buildings get cover saves from intervening units by being partially obscured? Otherwise there's no way Gants help against dropping Meltas.
I'm torn with Flyrants. 4 is definitely too much it just leaves you with no points to play with. I think 3 might be good, or maybe just the standard two. For most lists I think more than 2 is suicide I think for Dimas they are important for thinning down numbers early game and lowering return fire. I think some combination of Flyrants Mawlocs & Biovores.
I agree 2 should be in nearly all lists, he's for starters our only really points effecient Synapse ( as in, he doesn't appear to pay a bunch of points for it) and he is also the best at projecting it with 24" move and Dominion as per standard not much he can't reach. On top of that they are the chisel to our hammer, being very good at applying the TLDevs with plenty of opportunitys to find LoS, skirt their cover, hit rear armour, and do it all at BS 4 and an effective 42" range as opposed to the regular 24" BS3 for nearly the entirety of the rest of the dex. Random Powers and Synapse seem almost a bonus as he'd be quite playable without, even at the same price.
However it IS a large price, and like all chisels, for them to work the need the weight of a heavy enough hammer to drive them home. Taking too much Flyrant leaves you low on actual volume of fire instead being all specialised at applying it, and there is a limit to how many situations and how far this advantage will take you.
I think 2 is enough, possibly 3 in a Dima list. Any more and you are well behind on volume of fire with a ice pick in one hand trying to hammer it in with a dentists tooth tapper.
I really like the Dima model, would be cool if you could build a decent list around it. Here's my take on a fun version that may or may not make it out of beer&pretzels-land. What I've found that it you can dominate the close combat game (and thus the center of the board), you have the upper hand in Maelstrom missions.
The whole "mess up target priority" is a really bad catch phrase that seems synonymous with Tyranids. Your opponent shooting the wrong thing is not something you should ever rely on! Hoping your opponent makes a critical mistake and shoots the wrong thing to build a list around! The more it works the worse your opponent is, 40k being an unbalanced game does mean a terrible player with zero game sense can still get great results with Wave Serpents or whatever, but a good strategy is one that aims to beat the BEST player of a list of that type! Well this is my opinion on it anyway.
I'm not relying on my opponents shooting the wrong things, list building around Dimas is about filling up with things that need to die.
There will be many situations where people don't want 25 jump pack rending attacks in their backyard turn 2, plus picking off the synapse web is seldom a bad choice. Also T4 makes them juicy for S8. Shrikes can be whittled down by small arms fire, but so can Raveners and just about anything else in the Fast Attack slot that would support Dimas.
Sorry it wasn't aimed at you so much N.I.B. or your list, but lists with Dima it's going to be hard to find stuff that does it. Shrikes can do it decently actually throwing themselves into threat range quickly and tiring or tearing something up in combat if ignored thanks to their speed. I just wanted to say something bout the phrase, I see things like "doing ____ wreaks havoc with their target priority!" and the like thrown about willynilly, when really.., it doesn't do that at all, sensible people don't fall for distraction Carnifex tactics, they shoot the Dima before it assaults their key unit and makes their points back.
omerakk wrote: I don't know if I can get behind the Bastion idea anymore. With the apparent shift to alpha striking armies that are all packing strong melta groups, it seems very likely you'll just lose the bastion and whatever was hiding inside on the first turn; unless you bubble wrap it with gaunt squads (which no lists seem to be doing)
Are you saying buildings get cover saves from intervening units by being partially obscured? Otherwise there's no way Gants help against dropping Meltas.
No
i think he means make sure to spread them out so the podded units cant' get within 12". it's not too hard to do.
SHUPPET wrote: Sorry RiTides, didn't realise you had followed the Tyranid Strategy thread and still wanted to discuss how you use them, I thought this was more a question on whether they were good models or not.
If I was going to run the Dima, hes overpriced defensively and offensively and this is silly to argue, so taking this into account the list needs to be built around the decisions and map control he forces which is what he does best. Running 1 will just be an expensive waste of wounds, I think 2-3 minimum is necessary. I think my build look something like this:
It wants to be capable of fighting and even punishing a backfield deployment, Mawlocs do this great for him and tarpit extremely well regardless of the situation, and are almost never anything but really cost effective. It's also putting down 18 T6 wounds turn 2 in the middle of their army (assuming 3 out of 4 come in from reserves), 26 if you include the Flyrants, this may force your opponent to focus something other than Dimas, although I think a good player will still just finish at least one the Dimas before they do anything. The other good thing about Mawlocs is that they do a massive burst damage turn 2, combined with Flyrants may be just enough to water down incoming fire to allow the Dimas to assault turn 3, through virtue of also having the 3+ cover save thanks to Thrope + screen. Hormagants are there to screen the Dimas, not sure if they are big enough, if not a unit of Gargs (or turning one of your troops into Warriors) is worthwhile for that 3+ cover save. I'm also not sure on the size of Dima model so IF he is big enough to block LoS to a Venomthrope but not big enough to block a Malanthrope, than the Venom is a better choice here, and change one of the units of Horms or Rippers into Warriors, for Synapse. This list assumes you either can or can't block LoS to BOTH of them. 3 Dimas might be better than 2 but would require dropping a Mawloc, making the Biovores extremely cost in-effecient at basically a 200 pt squad when you factor in the Ripper tax for dual CAD, make single FOC probably the better option if you go this route. You also probably only need one Flyrant the second is for dual FOC, so there is different ways to achieve what this list is trying to do, look at it as a building block. This list comes out just below 1850, I'm not going to dedicate too much time to tightening it up but you get the idea of how I feel the best way to play him would be.
You sure don't know how to make a list without spamming units x3 onwards
He explained in a very detailed way why he was picking each unit and how they synergize with each other. It is better than just going 'well this is the best unit in the dex so im going to spam this without any explanation as to how it works with other units'.
I actually think this to be an exceptionally strong list. 2 FMC's, 4 deepstriking MCs which eat people on arrival, 2 uber combat MC's moving up with a small number of units giving them a 3+ cover. Supported by artillery.
I'm not big into the competitive scene, and I'm completely behind on nid tactics, but if you don't mind me asking, what role is a bastion playing in a Tyranid army that you need to protect it with a wall of bodies ?
adamsouza wrote: I'm not big into the competitive scene, and I'm completely behind on nid tactics, but if you don't mind me asking, what role is a bastion playing in a Tyranid army that you need to protect it with a wall of bodies ?
One of the more popular tactics for Nids is to but an Imperial Bastion and put a Venomthrope inside. This tactic has received various nicknames (Bastionthrope, Venom-in-a-box) but the main premise is that the Venomthrope gives shrouded to everything within 6" of the Bastion, which is a much larger bubble than if he was on the ground. For Tyranids, this goes miles into protecting us from an alpha strike, as we can guarantee almost our entire army starts the game with shrouding. Combined with Jink saves or the Barricades that a Bastion may purchase, we can give a 2++ cover save to many units in our army. Fortunately the Bastion in AV 14 all around and very difficult to kill. Unfortunately, killing the bastion means 4d6 strength 6 hits on the unit inside: That kills the venomthrope inside every time. So, we protect the Bastion! With a shield of gants or gargoyles it isn't hard to place models so that it is impossible to put a Drop Pod within 6" of the Bastion, which is that crucial melta range. By preventing meltaguns getting in range you can protect the Bastion, and remain shrouded, for a rather long time. It's also quite possible that you have another unit on top, like Biovores or a synapse unit, that will enjoy not having their Bastion blown up.
The other benefits of having your bastion alive is that it can block Line of sight more completely and without question than just about any Nid unit we have. Put your Emperor's Will behind this puppy and wrap those gants around, and an AM gunline will never be able to draw Line of Sight to the models on it. It is also tall enough to block Line of sight to a Flyrant or give a cover save to a Crone.
EDIT: But, we now have the Malanthrope from Forge World, which changes things... compared to a Venomthrope, Malanthropes are super durable and can advance up field or stay put without the fear of getting killed by the first enemy unit with a glimpse of target priority. A unit if multiple Malanthropes is tough enough that they don't necessarily need a Bastion to hide in. For just one, I'd advise it, but otherwise.the Bastion may not be needed. If you want to play your Malanthropes in a more aggressive role where they advance instead of sitting still I would advise the Bastion.
I see most lists with 1 or 2 Malanthropes. So to me, the Bastion question is sort of moot- if you decide to run 2 Malanthropes, it's basically the same cost as 1 Malanthrope plus Bastion, so the rest of the list will look similar. I'm going to get 2 Malanthropes and will try out both variants
Jifel, I've seen you mention barricades a few times. If you bring a Bastion, you could purchase up to 2 of these Barricades (at 10 points a pop) right? Are they just the long sections of the Aegis, needing to be deployed within a certain range of the Bastion?
Appreciate your clarifying, thanks . I'd love to put those in my list, but since I think they're only costed out as upgrades in Stronghold Assault, it seems to me like some events aren't allowing them (at least it looks like the most recent BAO did not, and I'm checking on others).
RiTides wrote: I see most lists with 1 or 2 Malanthropes. So to me, the Bastion question is sort of moot- if you decide to run 2 Malanthropes, it's basically the same cost as 1 Malanthrope plus Bastion, so the rest of the list will look similar. I'm going to get 2 Malanthropes and will try out both variants
Jifel, I've seen you mention barricades a few times. If you bring a Bastion, you could purchase up to 2 of these Barricades (at 10 points a pop) right? Are they just the long sections of the Aegis, needing to be deployed within a certain range of the Bastion?
Appreciate your clarifying, thanks . I'd love to put those in my list, but since I think they're only costed out as upgrades in Stronghold Assault, it seems to me like some events aren't allowing them (at least it looks like the most recent BAO did not, and I'm checking on others).
Barricades are technically described as "small sections (each no longer than 6")". The long section of an Aegis, what I use, is shorter than that but I am way too lazy to convert new barricades. A Bastion can actually purchase six of these bad boys if needed, at ten points each, but I find that 2-3 is enough for me. Strangely height is never mentioned in the description, which could lead to some hilarious abuse... but I personally think an Aegis height is most reasonable to assume. Also barricades simply must be placed anywhere on the table within 6" of the fortification, but are separate from them.
They are only available in stronghold, but every tournament I've been to (the ATC and small local stuff) has allowed full upgrades, just to a limited number of buildings. Most stores will be fine with you upgrading your Bastion. I just use them to guarantee a 2++ cover save for my Flyrants without having to jink, plus they are tall enough to hide Rippers behind!
I love this thread, guys. So many good ideas here, and not just about the Dima. Special shout outs go to jifel, SHUPPET and jy2. Keep up the good work!
The Malenthrope is so insanely good for the amount of points it costs that it borders on broken, honestly. It conjures up memories of the Doom of Malentai.
Our game group has a Tyranid player and he's sort of considering getting one, but the rules for it are so good that he feels like it would be unfair of him to put it on the table against any army except Eldar.
Malenthrope is clearly the best of the lot but...he's also big.
Ok, he has T5 and 4 wounds, and yeah, there isn't much Str10 in the game.
And he has shrouding, but still, hiding him is hard and he could be ID'd by a WraithKnight.
Venoms are just easier to hide and you can get 2 for the price of a Malenthrope.
I'm not convinced by the other bits released. its all a bit meh to me.
I also disagree with one point Reecius made regarding objective secured units:
"and while they do take objectives, everything in the Nid book does that now so comparatively, that advantage is not what it was last edition".
Objective secured is still a huge advantage and shouldn't be downplayed.
I wouldn't call the Malanthropes broken by any means- it's essentially a Tyranid Warrior and a Venomthrope mashed together. It will work for some lists, and be meh for others.
Murrdox wrote: The Malenthrope is so insanely good for the amount of points it costs that it borders on broken, honestly. It conjures up memories of the Doom of Malentai.
Our game group has a Tyranid player and he's sort of considering getting one, but the rules for it are so good that he feels like it would be unfair of him to put it on the table against any army except Eldar.
The Malanthrope is great for Tyranids because he compensates for what is not a very well balanced book. Remember that his damage output is almost nonexistant, and that he is slow... I will say he is a great unit, but he is not broken, and is still a tier below the Doom of Malan'tai in my opinion. It would be unfair as part of an Eldar army, but when you consider that it's in the Nid army it isn't quite as broken as it seems. For me, the best part is that I can essentially wrap up a Zoey and Venom in one unit to reduce my armies Kill Point potential by one.
Iechine wrote: Malanthrope does great in CC for the record, wounding everything on 2+ is great.
If it gets there it isn't bad, but I wouldn't send it in there alone, and it's slow enough that I wouldn't count on it. It is quite nice when it works, but usually I'd only send it in against a soft target like a guard squad, and those tend to be long dead by the time I get there...
Fast
Dima 200
Dima 200
Hive crone, with stinger spines 165
Biovore 40
Biovore 40
cost -1850
Thoughts on above list- Each list is made up of a node of 1 Dima, supported by 1 mal and wrapped with 20 Hormagants. The hormagaunts will of course outpace both but thats fine since the Dima and mal will catch up a turn later while the Hormagants hold something(s) in place for assault. They can in turn have support from a flyrant each. Biovores can bomb the enemies backfield a little to try and put hurt on mobs/ long range shooty things. Terv, termagants, and hivecrone can support whichever sides needs help, and the rippers are there to contest/take an objective/force your opponent to shoot at a 45pt unit instead of something else.
Lots of target saturation that starts on board, 3 psykers for a total of 5 WC, 3 flyers, 5 models with synapse.
Nice! I would change it, but that is just to suit my own "style" (I would drop the Biovore, and the Rippers, add x2 Zoeys, and take Hive Commander. ) I do agree that the way to make most Any Nid unit work is to use it with other Nid units in mutual support.
I dont find the Malathrope broken at all; I think it is just a very solid unit that has a place in most tyranid lists.
I also disagree with one point Reecius made regarding objective secured units:
"and while they do take objectives, everything in the Nid book does that now so comparatively, that advantage is not what it was last edition".
Objective secured is still a huge advantage and shouldn't be downplayed.
I also feel that objective secured is far more useful to the other races than it is to tyranids... aka, races that get transports and allow their OS units to zip around the map at will. Tyranids troops dont have that kind of utility. Our only speedy options here would be the gargoyles from skyblight or a deepstriking ripper swarm.
Traceoftoxin wrote: After watching a trio of games using Maelstrom missions, I`m convinced the Dima will be a much stronger choice in 7th edition. Now instead of placing objectives super aggressively in the opponents deployment zone so you can be there at the end of the game to score, Tyranids will place objectives in their own deployment zone/midfield, forcing enemies to come to them.
Word. Maelstrom has changed the dynamic of the game. One "rule of thumb" has been "Armies that advance towards Nids lose " And now armies have valid reasons to advance, that works wonders for our chances of victory.
I don't think I'll be buying a Dime anytime soon (if ever) But I look at it and see a tool for using the "Shiny Model Stratagem" i.e.; Look! this unit is scary...here it comes! Booga Booga!! It munches bullets, and the hive eats the foe.
Jy2, I am enjoying the insights you've been sharing. I also give serious though to Force Multipliers, witness my obsession with Zoey. Despite our similar analysis, we produce starkly different lists. Thus "Style" is revealed. I tend to say "I have these FMU, so my swarms of Troops can do more! You tend to say "I have these FMU's so I don't need swarms of Troops. And we are both correct.
Thanx for taking the time to share you knowlage.
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adamsouza wrote: I'm not big into the competitive scene, and I'm completely behind on nid tactics, but if you don't mind me asking, what role is a bastion playing in a Tyranid army that you need to protect it with a wall of bodies ?
Several things, first the disclaimer: I don't play the "in a box", One, a guaranteed block LOS item., Two, the Shroud effect of our bugs is measured from the outside, thus making it much bigger (a small thing, but perfection is found in the small details) Three, a durable challenge for the foe, you can use it to secure a Objective, control table space, etc...Four, you can add extras that can act as Force Multipliers (Comms relay, AA weapon, Ammo Dump, etc)
If it fits your "style" that is plenty of reasons to get one. (and to protect your investment)
I agree 100%. I wrote a little paragraph detailing the matchup problems, and then deleted it. Slow MC's get dominated by such lists. The Dima is a slow MC.
On the other hand, your 4 Flyrant list doesn't exactly dominate Tau either. 3 Burst Tides + 3 Missile Sides + Buffmander + 2 Skyrays + Marker lights is taking down 1-2 Flyrants and a Dima every turn. Everything Tyranids have, Tau have an answer to. You fare marginally better against Mechdar because at least you can hit back a bit more.
On the topic of Target prioritization. Your 4 Flyrant list would be better with Crones instead of Dima's because 1) the Dima's aren't properly supported. 2) the Crones match the flyrants in speed, and give the opponent a more challenging target prioritization. My Nidzilla list is packed with redundancy making target prioritization a problem. We've got 3 terrifying assault units (2 Dimas, Swarmlord), 3 high firepower shooty units (Dakkafexes), and 4 Durable Syanpse units (Swarmlord, Tervigon, 2 Malenthrope). What are you going to shoot first?
Are 4 Flyrants better than Nidzilla? Definitely. But do 4 Flyrants work well with 2 Dimas? I don't really think so. It seems to me, Dimas have Nidzilla written all over them, and aren't as good as Dakkafexes in other Tyranid lists, because of the extra one to two turns before they can contribute. Dakkafexes are plenty deadly in assault. The Dima has the problem of not being able to stick in assault. Most assaults are going to end on the first turn meaning it can never avoid the opponent's shooting phase.
I've never made any claim that a flying Tyranid list will dominate the likes of Tau. No matter what you run, tyranids will always have a tough time against a good Tau army. Tau just naturally counters Tyranids (as well as a lot of armies) much in the same way that DE venom-spam used to counter nidzilla back in 5th. To play against Tau (and other super-shooty armies), you need mobility. That is why a mobile Tyranid army (such as one with lots of flyrants and other fast units) will always stand a better chance than a ground-&-pound bug list. But tyranids, even one with quad-flyrants, is far from dominating against a good Tau list. Rather, a fast Tyranid army will have a fighting chance against these types of lists instead of just being slaughtered.
With regards to the dimas, I recommend you test out both builds against the likes of a good tournament Tau/Eldar army to see for yourself how each will play out.
As for assaults, sure you can. If you want to stay locked in combat, on the turn that you charge, just do a Smash attack. Then you can wipe out the enemy on his Assault phase.
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Iechine wrote: Malanthrope does great in CC for the record, wounding everything on 2+ is great.
Don't forget that he is S5, meaning he would get to re-roll wounds against most infantry.
Jy2, I am enjoying the insights you've been sharing. I also give serious though to Force Multipliers, witness my obsession with Zoey. Despite our similar analysis, we produce starkly different lists. Thus "Style" is revealed. I tend to say "I have these FMU, so my swarms of Troops can do more! You tend to say "I have these FMU's so I don't need swarms of Troops. And we are both correct.
Thanx for taking the time to share you knowlage.
You're welcome. Yeah, a lot of it does come down to playstyle-preference. There isn't just 1 way to build a competitive Tyranid army and I never advocate that you should only play bugs a certain way.
For me, personally, I like the flexibility of deepstriking rippers as opposed to swarms of Tyranid gribblies. That is because I prefer to play a game of denial and positioning. Reserve my troops and you have no idea where they will be coming in. Moreover, I can then contest those far objectives with an ObSec unit whereas gribblies would have a hard time getting there. That is just my playstyle preference, although I will admit that it has given me good results. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with running hordes of Tyranid gribblies as well and, depending on the matchups, sometimes such an army can net you better results. So yeah, there is no real wrong way to build a Tyranid army. Rather, it is just a matter of building a list to your taste and then fine-tuning/optimizing it.
I've been trying to think out how to incorporate he dima into my deep striking surprise nids. Much like others were saying, plan on a malamthrope in a bastion to start the game. Mine has comms for the strikers. Dima can stand on top in that oodles of space. With the malamthrope bubble tha gives him 2+ cover save. If anyone approaches, the leap ability allows me to step rigt off the bastion and assault the enemy with a very scary monster. Depending upon opponents situationally a pair of flyrants hide behind the bastion giving it half of its bubble wrap. When the rest of the army arrives in turn two, flyrants take off and as the situation dictates, dima and malamthrope head where they are needed.
From what little I have seen of seventh edition, games now largely occur in the center of the board anyway. So the threat range from the front of your deployment zone should be able to threaten one or two secondary objectives, if your opponent targets it a 2+ cover will be hard to be through first turn. Over shelling targets turn two will keep it a lower priority.
I agree 100%. I wrote a little paragraph detailing the matchup problems, and then deleted it. Slow MC's get dominated by such lists. The Dima is a slow MC.
On the other hand, your 4 Flyrant list doesn't exactly dominate Tau either. 3 Burst Tides + 3 Missile Sides + Buffmander + 2 Skyrays + Marker lights is taking down 1-2 Flyrants and a Dima every turn. Everything Tyranids have, Tau have an answer to. You fare marginally better against Mechdar because at least you can hit back a bit more.
On the topic of Target prioritization. Your 4 Flyrant list would be better with Crones instead of Dima's because 1) the Dima's aren't properly supported. 2) the Crones match the flyrants in speed, and give the opponent a more challenging target prioritization. My Nidzilla list is packed with redundancy making target prioritization a problem. We've got 3 terrifying assault units (2 Dimas, Swarmlord), 3 high firepower shooty units (Dakkafexes), and 4 Durable Syanpse units (Swarmlord, Tervigon, 2 Malenthrope). What are you going to shoot first?
Are 4 Flyrants better than Nidzilla? Definitely. But do 4 Flyrants work well with 2 Dimas? I don't really think so. It seems to me, Dimas have Nidzilla written all over them, and aren't as good as Dakkafexes in other Tyranid lists, because of the extra one to two turns before they can contribute. Dakkafexes are plenty deadly in assault. The Dima has the problem of not being able to stick in assault. Most assaults are going to end on the first turn meaning it can never avoid the opponent's shooting phase.
I've never made any claim that a flying Tyranid list will dominate the likes of Tau. No matter what you run, tyranids will always have a tough time against a good Tau army. Tau just naturally counters Tyranids (as well as a lot of armies) much in the same way that DE venom-spam used to counter nidzilla back in 5th. To play against Tau (and other super-shooty armies), you need mobility. That is why a mobile Tyranid army (such as one with lots of flyrants and other fast units) will always stand a better chance than a ground-&-pound bug list. But tyranids, even one with quad-flyrants, is far from dominating against a good Tau list. Rather, a fast Tyranid army will have a fighting chance against these types of lists instead of just being slaughtered.
With regards to the dimas, I recommend you test out both builds against the likes of a good tournament Tau/Eldar army to see for yourself how each will play out.
I would recommend likewise. My thinking is that my list wins a pile more maelstrom missions, while your list wins more eternal war missions. Meanwhile, an actually good list that doesn't include the Dima wins far more Missions than either of us. He is a situationally useful unit that doesn't really have a place in a top tier tyranid TAC list, but might have a place in a themed Nidzilla list.
I'll be playtesting him to verify my initial reaction in the coming weeks, and I'll definitely leave my thoughts once I've done so.
jy2 wrote: As for assaults, sure you can. If you want to stay locked in combat, on the turn that you charge, just do a Smash attack. Then you can wipe out the enemy on his Assault phase.
Good trick that. A failure of imagination on my part. I will take that lesson to heart.
I agree 100%. I wrote a little paragraph detailing the matchup problems, and then deleted it. Slow MC's get dominated by such lists. The Dima is a slow MC.
On the other hand, your 4 Flyrant list doesn't exactly dominate Tau either. 3 Burst Tides + 3 Missile Sides + Buffmander + 2 Skyrays + Marker lights is taking down 1-2 Flyrants and a Dima every turn. Everything Tyranids have, Tau have an answer to. You fare marginally better against Mechdar because at least you can hit back a bit more.
On the topic of Target prioritization. Your 4 Flyrant list would be better with Crones instead of Dima's because 1) the Dima's aren't properly supported. 2) the Crones match the flyrants in speed, and give the opponent a more challenging target prioritization. My Nidzilla list is packed with redundancy making target prioritization a problem. We've got 3 terrifying assault units (2 Dimas, Swarmlord), 3 high firepower shooty units (Dakkafexes), and 4 Durable Syanpse units (Swarmlord, Tervigon, 2 Malenthrope). What are you going to shoot first?
Are 4 Flyrants better than Nidzilla? Definitely. But do 4 Flyrants work well with 2 Dimas? I don't really think so. It seems to me, Dimas have Nidzilla written all over them, and aren't as good as Dakkafexes in other Tyranid lists, because of the extra one to two turns before they can contribute. Dakkafexes are plenty deadly in assault. The Dima has the problem of not being able to stick in assault. Most assaults are going to end on the first turn meaning it can never avoid the opponent's shooting phase.
I've never made any claim that a flying Tyranid list will dominate the likes of Tau. No matter what you run, tyranids will always have a tough time against a good Tau army. Tau just naturally counters Tyranids (as well as a lot of armies) much in the same way that DE venom-spam used to counter nidzilla back in 5th. To play against Tau (and other super-shooty armies), you need mobility. That is why a mobile Tyranid army (such as one with lots of flyrants and other fast units) will always stand a better chance than a ground-&-pound bug list. But tyranids, even one with quad-flyrants, is far from dominating against a good Tau list. Rather, a fast Tyranid army will have a fighting chance against these types of lists instead of just being slaughtered.
With regards to the dimas, I recommend you test out both builds against the likes of a good tournament Tau/Eldar army to see for yourself how each will play out.
I would recommend likewise. My thinking is that my list wins a pile more maelstrom missions, while your list wins more eternal war missions. Meanwhile, an actually good list that doesn't include the Dima wins far more Missions than either of us. He is a situationally useful unit that doesn't really have a place in a top tier tyranid TAC list, but might have a place in a themed Nidzilla list.
I'll be playtesting him to verify my initial reaction in the coming weeks, and I'll definitely leave my thoughts once I've done so.
Cool. I am sure the Hive Mind would love to hear your experiences on this subject matter.
I actually tried a hybrid dima list against a tournament Tau list. This was against the guy who won Best Tau player and was Top 5 at the BAO. I ran 3 flyrants (self-ally, which is legal at the BAO), Malan-in-a-box, some rippers, 2 dimas, 2 dakkafexes and 1 mawloc. It didn't go too well for my ground units, though my flyrants were doing ok until the very end.
I actually have a battle report for this, which I will eventually get to posting, perhaps when I am done with my BAO battle reports.
I agree 100%. I wrote a little paragraph detailing the matchup problems, and then deleted it. Slow MC's get dominated by such lists. The Dima is a slow MC.
On the other hand, your 4 Flyrant list doesn't exactly dominate Tau either. 3 Burst Tides + 3 Missile Sides + Buffmander + 2 Skyrays + Marker lights is taking down 1-2 Flyrants and a Dima every turn. Everything Tyranids have, Tau have an answer to. You fare marginally better against Mechdar because at least you can hit back a bit more.
On the topic of Target prioritization. Your 4 Flyrant list would be better with Crones instead of Dima's because 1) the Dima's aren't properly supported. 2) the Crones match the flyrants in speed, and give the opponent a more challenging target prioritization. My Nidzilla list is packed with redundancy making target prioritization a problem. We've got 3 terrifying assault units (2 Dimas, Swarmlord), 3 high firepower shooty units (Dakkafexes), and 4 Durable Syanpse units (Swarmlord, Tervigon, 2 Malenthrope). What are you going to shoot first?
Are 4 Flyrants better than Nidzilla? Definitely. But do 4 Flyrants work well with 2 Dimas? I don't really think so. It seems to me, Dimas have Nidzilla written all over them, and aren't as good as Dakkafexes in other Tyranid lists, because of the extra one to two turns before they can contribute. Dakkafexes are plenty deadly in assault. The Dima has the problem of not being able to stick in assault. Most assaults are going to end on the first turn meaning it can never avoid the opponent's shooting phase.
I've never made any claim that a flying Tyranid list will dominate the likes of Tau. No matter what you run, tyranids will always have a tough time against a good Tau army. Tau just naturally counters Tyranids (as well as a lot of armies) much in the same way that DE venom-spam used to counter nidzilla back in 5th. To play against Tau (and other super-shooty armies), you need mobility. That is why a mobile Tyranid army (such as one with lots of flyrants and other fast units) will always stand a better chance than a ground-&-pound bug list. But tyranids, even one with quad-flyrants, is far from dominating against a good Tau list. Rather, a fast Tyranid army will have a fighting chance against these types of lists instead of just being slaughtered.
With regards to the dimas, I recommend you test out both builds against the likes of a good tournament Tau/Eldar army to see for yourself how each will play out.
I would recommend likewise. My thinking is that my list wins a pile more maelstrom missions, while your list wins more eternal war missions. Meanwhile, an actually good list that doesn't include the Dima wins far more Missions than either of us. He is a situationally useful unit that doesn't really have a place in a top tier tyranid TAC list, but might have a place in a themed Nidzilla list.
Agreed with what you say here tag, and actually very much disagree with what Jy2 says about tau. Tyranids won't ALWAYS have a problem with Tau - Living Artillery ground lists gets an autowin vs Tau every 1 in 3 games (or whatever the chance is). There is absolutely no way a list with quad Flyrants is winning more than that vs Tau, especially with the Flyrants rarely lasting longer than Carnifexes who are nearly half the price, with the wasted points of 2 Dimas threatening nothing till turn 3 or 4, and the Bastion combo doing ABSOLUTELY nothing except waste more points. I think testing your list out vs a good Tau list is one thing, you obviously need a better Tau player behind because something is giving you skewed results here. It's a little counter intuitive I think, as beating Tau isn't about paying more points for mobility, it's about about using those extra points for more of the points effecient models IMO, as Tau is very well equipped to deal with a list that only sends like 4 threats across for the first 2 turns of the game (possibly more).
I still think max of 3 Flyrants is even pushing it.
This overrating of the Malathrope, sheesh... A Zoey + a Venom achieves the same major effects, with more combined durability. Malanthrope has it positives on these 2 (and it's negatives) I'm well aware, but the differences are far from game breaking or broken. I actually think the Venom is better and Malanthrope has shiny paint syndrome (similar to the Dima)
Everything we said still stands anyway there was nothing really contradicting it on the second page. I kinda gotta stick with that list/outline as the best way to go for Dimas really and say while an extra Flyrant may have it's merits, it comes at the cost of 2 Mawlocs, so nothing is set in stone for sure
SHUPPET wrote: Tyranids won't ALWAYS have a problem with Tau - Living Artillery ground lists gets an autowin vs Tau every 1 in 3 games (or whatever the chance is).
Could you explain this in more detail? Are you referring to getting the Master of Ambush warlord trait, and getting to infiltrate 3 units... but why is this specific to Living Artillery lists? Or do you just mean any list with some big MCs to infiltrate? And wouldn't the chance be 1 in 6?
If you're referring to something else, I'd love to hear it, or maybe just an explanation of the above is this is on the right track. I also think you misunderstood jy2's post about facing the Tau player (he didn't say that he won, simply that his ground forces struggled while his flying portion survived longer). I'd like to not get too sidetracked into specifics and still talk about overall tactics here.
In that vein, Jifel's idea of taking barricades has me really intrigued now. I actually ordered some micro art studio alien terrain to use for that today! I know not everywhere allows the upgrades to buildings, but 2 barricades seems worth at least as much to me as the Comms Relay (also 20 points), although for different uses obviously.
SHUPPET wrote: Tyranids won't ALWAYS have a problem with Tau - Living Artillery ground lists gets an autowin vs Tau every 1 in 3 games (or whatever the chance is).
Could you explain this in more detail? Are you referring to getting the Master of Ambush warlord trait, and getting to infiltrate 3 units... but why is this specific to Living Artillery lists? Or do you just mean any list with some big MCs to infiltrate? And wouldn't the chance be 1 in 6?
If you're referring to something else, I'd love to hear it, or maybe just an explanation of the above is this is on the right track. I also think you misunderstood jy2's post about facing the Tau player (he didn't say that he won, simply that his ground forces struggled while his flying portion survived longer). I'd like to not get too sidetracked into specifics and still talk about overall tactics here.
In that vein, Jifel's idea of taking barricades has me really intrigued now. I actually ordered some micro art studio alien terrain to use for that today! I know not everywhere allows the upgrades to buildings, but 2 barricades seems worth at least as much to me as the Comms Relay (also 20 points), although for different uses obviously.
Battleforged gets to re-roll Warlord, so 2 in 6...or 1 in 3.
I agree 100%. I wrote a little paragraph detailing the matchup problems, and then deleted it. Slow MC's get dominated by such lists. The Dima is a slow MC.
On the other hand, your 4 Flyrant list doesn't exactly dominate Tau either. 3 Burst Tides + 3 Missile Sides + Buffmander + 2 Skyrays + Marker lights is taking down 1-2 Flyrants and a Dima every turn. Everything Tyranids have, Tau have an answer to. You fare marginally better against Mechdar because at least you can hit back a bit more.
On the topic of Target prioritization. Your 4 Flyrant list would be better with Crones instead of Dima's because 1) the Dima's aren't properly supported. 2) the Crones match the flyrants in speed, and give the opponent a more challenging target prioritization. My Nidzilla list is packed with redundancy making target prioritization a problem. We've got 3 terrifying assault units (2 Dimas, Swarmlord), 3 high firepower shooty units (Dakkafexes), and 4 Durable Syanpse units (Swarmlord, Tervigon, 2 Malenthrope). What are you going to shoot first?
Are 4 Flyrants better than Nidzilla? Definitely. But do 4 Flyrants work well with 2 Dimas? I don't really think so. It seems to me, Dimas have Nidzilla written all over them, and aren't as good as Dakkafexes in other Tyranid lists, because of the extra one to two turns before they can contribute. Dakkafexes are plenty deadly in assault. The Dima has the problem of not being able to stick in assault. Most assaults are going to end on the first turn meaning it can never avoid the opponent's shooting phase.
I've never made any claim that a flying Tyranid list will dominate the likes of Tau. No matter what you run, tyranids will always have a tough time against a good Tau army. Tau just naturally counters Tyranids (as well as a lot of armies) much in the same way that DE venom-spam used to counter nidzilla back in 5th. To play against Tau (and other super-shooty armies), you need mobility. That is why a mobile Tyranid army (such as one with lots of flyrants and other fast units) will always stand a better chance than a ground-&-pound bug list. But tyranids, even one with quad-flyrants, is far from dominating against a good Tau list. Rather, a fast Tyranid army will have a fighting chance against these types of lists instead of just being slaughtered.
With regards to the dimas, I recommend you test out both builds against the likes of a good tournament Tau/Eldar army to see for yourself how each will play out.
I would recommend likewise. My thinking is that my list wins a pile more maelstrom missions, while your list wins more eternal war missions. Meanwhile, an actually good list that doesn't include the Dima wins far more Missions than either of us. He is a situationally useful unit that doesn't really have a place in a top tier tyranid TAC list, but might have a place in a themed Nidzilla list.
Agreed with what you say here tag, and actually very much disagree with what Jy2 says about tau. Tyranids won't ALWAYS have a problem with Tau - Living Artillery ground lists gets an autowin vs Tau every 1 in 3 games (or whatever the chance is).
Living artillery is far from an autowin vs tau. It is a better matchup than some, but you are still going to lose more games than you win against good Tau lists. I used living artillery a dozen or so times against tau in 6th, and never won a single one of the games. The 7th edition nerf to Ovesa + the buffs to blast weapons means that Living Artillery is a little better against Tau, but still far, far, far from an autowin. Tau is capable of downing MC's without batting an eye. That Exocrine could easily die to first blood. The Biovores are underwhelming against Tau Elite units, and warriors don't dish out much damage. Venomthropes don't work if Tau have marker lights, and the first unit with SMS can kill the Venom anyways. Tau can deal with anything Tyranids have. Against the BAO tau list, with 3 Ion Tides and no skyrays, Flyrants are probably a good bet, but against Bursttides with skyfire or skyrays, Tyranid Flyers die just as easily as walking MC's.
The best counter to Tau is the Maelstrom missions. They prevent Tau from lining up on the board edge and making you come to them. Immobile Tau gunline is exactly the reason the Maelstrom missions are great. It is an unfun game to play EW against Tau either marching toward them or cowering behind terrain waiting for Turn 5.
Iechine wrote: Malanthrope does great in CC for the record, wounding everything on 2+ is great.
If it gets there it isn't bad, but I wouldn't send it in there alone, and it's slow enough that I wouldn't count on it. It is quite nice when it works, but usually I'd only send it in against a soft target like a guard squad, and those tend to be long dead by the time I get there...
Get where? It's a support unit, it doesn't need to run across the board it just needs to be available to counter assault. The things are stupidly good, in fact if the rest of the tyranid book didn't suck so bad these things very much would break the game.
@RiTides Yep Master of Ambush (meant to put it in that sentence but missed it lol), I'll explain further
@tag oh, no I definitely agree that it's not an autowin, in fact most games you will struggle just as much as any other Tyranid list vs Tau, but then you are no worse off with Living Artillery than you would be with anything else, and better off than some others, so so be it.
No, the real auto-win is when you roll Master of Ambush. A good ground list can push forward any number of things into shooting range turn 1, or at the very least outflank turn 2, ensuring all your threats get to shoot before being shot. But there is no comparison to infiltrating 3 units of choice and getting the first turn - I've done this a few times vs Tau and it's been nothing short of an absolute slaughter, my way. It had me opening with a twin linked pinning Exocrine blast, 3 TL Biovore blasts, FOUR Twin-Linked 12 shot S6 Dakkafex volleys, and 2 more from the regular Flyrant, and even a TLAP pinning blast from the Warriors. That right there is nearly 1500 points of close range Dakka unloading their firepower turn one, and finishing within assault range, could be even more I choose to keep a Mawloc in reserve for my build. You completely steal the range advantage and a lot of alpa from Tau if you are lucky enough to roll MoA and go first, that's about the hardest possible thing a Tau could face in the game after being thinned down to hell, but it's still great if you go second although fair enough not what you could call "autowin" anymore with some lucky reserve rolls the scales are still tipped your way, or at worst you infiltrate and should still get to shoot your Dakkafexes turn 1, even if you do have to cop a round of shooting from them first, that was going to happen either way, and if you go second you may be lucky enough to get a first turn assault.
So yeah, I was rushing that post this morning and as a result it hurt my clarity, Living Artillery itself doesn't hard-counter Tau, just the style of build and the chance to roll MoA with it. I actually got a first turn concede off a particularly whiny Riptide spamming Tau player in my local, which I am very proud of guy is the sort of guy who laughs obnoxiously loud and calls out big kills across the room, and how emotional he got when the tables were turned by Tyranid (whom he constantly talks about as one the "trash" races) was definitely my strategy game highlight of the year so far, in an admittedly childish but satisfying manner. =)
SHUPPET wrote: @tag oh, no I definitely agree that it's not an autowin, in fact most games you will struggle just as much as any other Tyranid list vs Tau, but then you are no worse off with Living Artillery than you would be with anything else, and better off than some others, so so be it.
No, the real auto-win is when you roll Master of Ambush. A good ground list can push forward any number of things into shooting range turn 1, or at the very least outflank turn 2, ensuring all your threats get to shoot before being shot. But there is no comparison to infiltrating 3 units of choice and getting the first turn
You need Master of Ambush and 1st turn to pull this off. Outflank doesn't generally do you much good because Tau can take Interceptor for like 5 Points, and blow you off the board before you get a chance to shoot. I once lost a Tyranid Prime, 30 mixed gaunts (lost 8, without the Prime they failed their leadership and ran off the board), and a Crone to interceptor.
We should probably take this discussion back to the Tyranid Tactica thread.
I think it's all pretty relevant to taking the new forgeworld units, in an indirect manner. Interceptor isn't stopping 4 Carnifexes, an exocrine and a Mawloc tho, and that's what my turn 2 looks like with outflank. Still, I think the xhoice between infiltrate and outflank is largely dependant on whether or not they did take the interceptor for sure. Opening up with a turn 1 Carnifex shooting and possible charge and weathering the shooting the turn before is better than opening up with neither of that, and weathering the same shooting! At this point I admit it's not autowin but it's still very strong and game changing v Tau.
So for those of you still not upset at the Dimachaeron not being classified as a Gargantuan creature and thus moving so slowly, take a gander at this pic from Forgeworld:
To the left, Gargantuan Creature moves 12", to the right Monstrous Creature only moves 6"
To be fair, the Hierodule is an older sculpt from a time where the largest MC in the game was a toss-up between the Hive Tyrant and Carnifex. All of the newer oval-base monsters make it look puny.
Strat_N8 wrote: To be fair, the Hierodule is an older sculpt from a time where the largest MC in the game was a toss-up between the Hive Tyrant and Carnifex. All of the newer oval-base monsters make it look puny.
I miss those days, I got out of the game right after 5th edition dropped and my Carnifexes were large and intimidating. Got back into the game in December and all of the sudden my Carnifexes are downright puny, compared to a TAU model no less!
But I digress, I do hope that Hierodules get a model update to the current aesthetic (though hopefully with a different sculptor than the Dimathingy), but as it sits now I want to write an email to Forgeworld about sizes and movements and frustration. Even if the Dimachaeron moved as a beast it'd be a FANTASTIC unit! I'd give up half the rules it has in order to get that...
Yeah, I got a Hierodule in yesterday, and it's about the same size as a Tyrannofex/Tervigon; it's just a little bulkier. I was a little disappointed tbh.
Ran two 1500pt games with Stonecrusher Carnifexes last night and was thoroughly impressed. The T7 against shooting is amazing against Astra Militarum, ignoring lasguns is huge, and with three, you can guarentee that some are going to get to their target. One charge kills a tank squadron pretty handily, and it's nasty.
Against Orks in my second game I gave them the flails to keep them from being tarpitted, and didn't miss the reroll for armor penetration at all. Managed to kill a Stompa with them pretty handily, and after that the game was basically over. Nasty nasty unit when properly supported.
. Hopefully, I'll be able to run 1 / 2 Dimachaerons, too 
And now armies have valid reasons to advance, that works wonders for our chances of victory. 
