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2014/08/06 14:05:36
Subject: Tyranids getting buffed by Forgeworld! Competitiveness discussion based on Frontline Gaming article
if the point of the list is to get the Dima across the table I am not sure many of those lists are any good.
Most of them come down to a lot of the army being reserved or flying, so you have few targets on the ground, one of which is the Dima. In some cases the only target on the ground is the Dima. I see it getting shot to bits a lot. Which I guess is okay for your other stuff to survive but it defeats the purpose of building a list to support the Dima.
2014/08/06 14:07:54
Subject: Tyranids getting buffed by Forgeworld! Competitiveness discussion based on Frontline Gaming article
RiTides wrote:Shuppet, I like where you're going with that list, but I feel like with the Dimas basically alone on the board, they're going to get shot to pieces? My thinking of how to best support them was to run Tyrannofexes alongside. With that sweet 2+ save model in front of them, and Malanthrope behind, a Dima could advance right behind the Tyrannofexes and then leap over them on the critical turn!
The thing is, they are obviously still going to be able to draw line of sight to the Dima with a Tyrannofex screen or not, and the Hormagants leave the Dima in the exact same position - 3+ cover. Tyrannofex not running every turn is just going to slow the Dima down if you use him as a shield - and it's MAJORLY important that you run with your Dima and shoot with your TFex, or else both are bad investments. HormGants not only being cheap meat shields, also provide bubblewrap, AND have that bonus to run so that unlike other units who you may use as a running screen, it's unlikely they will ever roll less than the Dima and hold him back a few inches. He's too slow as it is and you can't afford not to run. Also as I think others have mentioned... There's no real way to leap over anything, because of his MC base the back of his base pretty much ends where the front of it started! Not a very well conceived rule for him unfortunately lol.
Plus, I think the issue with Dima is that deploying backfield is a great way for your opponents to counter your investment. Practically every army outranges us, and even some of the midranged ones will just deploy backfield when you put 400 points into a 6" move speed CC Deathstar - I learnt this the hard way with last eds Swarmlord. Putting a bunch of points into 18" threats (Carnifex & Tyranno) just amplifies this issue. Flyrant do a decent job of mitigating it, but I personally feel that more than 2 is often wasted points - hence why I think Mawlocs and Biovores are the answer, you can force then to deploy backfield and lose all board control, or deploy closer and eat a Dima faster. Yes, they will shoot at it - this is the flaw with the model - and no amount of MCs other than more Dimas will increase the chances of your Dimas surviving - Tyrannofex or not, a good opponent is shooting right past them and blasting at the Dima's anyway. The only real option is to do as much damage as you can to lessen the incoming fire, spamming Flyrants like jy2 suggested isn't a bad option, I think 2 is enough combined with Mawloc and Biovore blasts, but I also think the Mawlocs are great for tarpits which is what you need for Dima because like the Swarmlord, anything it approaches is moving 6" away from it before shooting, just to slow down that charge.
I threw my list together sort of hastily just based on the concepts I feel are necessary for him. In hindsight I think I'd probably run 3, dual FOC so I can take Garg TarPits, cut down the number of Mawlocs and add more Flyrants. One or two Mawlocs is probably enough and jy2 might have a point in his unexplained changes to my list, for helping Dimas they do rely heavily on luck although they have the potential to do it best, I'm thinking maybe more turn 1 threats for the biggest alpha strike possible is the way to go. The more I look at it, the more I think adding an extra Flyrant or two may not be such a bad thing here. I'm willing to admit when I made a hasty conclusion! Haha. Anyway I'm rambling, but just sharing thoughts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How do people feel about running 6 Dimas, 2 Flyrants, and 4 Rippers for exactly 1850 points lol
SHUPPET wrote: Sorry RiTides, didn't realise you had followed the Tyranid Strategy thread and still wanted to discuss how you use them, I thought this was more a question on whether they were good models or not.
If I was going to run the Dima, hes overpriced defensively and offensively and this is silly to argue, so taking this into account the list needs to be built around the decisions and map control he forces which is what he does best. Running 1 will just be an expensive waste of wounds, I think 2-3 minimum is necessary. I think my build look something like this:
It wants to be capable of fighting and even punishing a backfield deployment, Mawlocs do this great for him and tarpit extremely well regardless of the situation, and are almost never anything but really cost effective. It's also putting down 18 T6 wounds turn 2 in the middle of their army (assuming 3 out of 4 come in from reserves), 26 if you include the Flyrants, this may force your opponent to focus something other than Dimas, although I think a good player will still just finish at least one the Dimas before they do anything. The other good thing about Mawlocs is that they do a massive burst damage turn 2, combined with Flyrants may be just enough to water down incoming fire to allow the Dimas to assault turn 4, through virtue of also having the 3+ cover save thanks to Thrope + screen. Hormagants are there to screen the Dimas, not sure if they are big enough, if not a unit of Gargs (or turning one of your troops into Warriors) is worthwhile for that 3+ cover save. I'm also not sure on the size of Dima model so IF he is big enough to block LoS to a Venomthrope but not big enough to block a Malanthrope, than the Venom is a better choice here, and change one of the units of Horms or Rippers into Warriors, for Synapse. This list assumes you either can or can't block LoS to BOTH of them. 3 Dimas might be better than 2 but would require dropping a Mawloc, making the Biovores extremely cost in-effecient at basically a 200 pt squad when you factor in the Ripper tax for dual CAD, make single FOC probably the better option if you go this route. You also probably only need one Flyrant the second is for dual FOC, so there is different ways to achieve what this list is trying to do, look at it as a building block. This list comes out just below 1850, I'm not going to dedicate too much time to tightening it up but you get the idea of how I feel the best way to play him would be.
You sure don't know how to make a list without spamming units x3 onwards
Hello, KurtAngle2! We havent had interactions before, but it's an absolute pleasure to meet you, and I can just tell that you are going to be sharing so many thought provoking contributions to this thread, that I decided I should formerly greet you, and kindly inform you that I have exalted your post, and do hope to see it in the Most Popular category soon!
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/08/06 17:21:43
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/08/06 14:38:19
Subject: Re:Tyranids getting buffed by Forgeworld! Competitiveness discussion based on Frontline Gaming article
Fast
Dima 200
Dima 200
Hive crone, with stinger spines 165
Biovore 40
Biovore 40
cost -1850
Thoughts on above list- Each list is made up of a node of 1 Dima, supported by 1 mal and wrapped with 20 Hormagants. The hormagaunts will of course outpace both but thats fine since the Dima and mal will catch up a turn later while the Hormagants hold something(s) in place for assault. They can in turn have support from a flyrant each. Biovores can bomb the enemies backfield a little to try and put hurt on mobs/ long range shooty things. Terv, termagants, and hivecrone can support whichever sides needs help, and the rippers are there to contest/take an objective/force your opponent to shoot at a 45pt unit instead of something else.
Lots of target saturation that starts on board, 3 psykers for a total of 5 WC, 3 flyers, 5 models with synapse.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/08/06 14:45:07
2014/08/06 14:50:52
Subject: Tyranids getting buffed by Forgeworld! Competitiveness discussion based on Frontline Gaming article
Doesn't look bad at all, logic behind it all is solid. One Crone is likely to do very little however, I think that and the Tervigon are for the most part better off as more threats. Unfortunately it probably will take a dual FOC . I think more Biovores and a Mawloc in the Heavies and a Harpy instead of the Crone is a good start. Harpies screech means you can't strike at the same time as a unit in Terrain with Dinas, gonna be important.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/08/06 15:24:05
Subject: Tyranids getting buffed by Forgeworld! Competitiveness discussion based on Frontline Gaming article
jy2 wrote: If I were to go dual-CAD, then there is no question which unit I would spam (and no, it isn't the mawlocs). At 1850 2x CAD, I'd go like this:
Mawloc - Adrenal Glands (so that he could more reliably kill tanks should he opt to stay on the table)
Bastion
1849
SHUPPET wrote: So how exactly is does dropping 3/4 of your Mawloc tarpits and a full squad of Biovores, for 2 extra Flyrants, at all beneficial for the Dimas? And then, with 14 wounds of Flying Synapse and only 2 units in the entire codex needing it's Synapse, why is there 170 pts of Bastion antics dedicated to doing just this? A Venom with LoS blocked saves you the points cost of the Biovores or even another Mawloc here if you go without AG. And if the cover save is worth that much to you, why did you swap out the Hormagant screens for 2 more Ripper squads?
Is there any actual logic behind those changes or is it just the regular "spam Flyrants/make sure all troops are Rippers/always have a Thrope in a bastion" advice for every single list ever? Because for this list iin particular it especially seems to stand out pretty shortsighted advice, unless I'm missing something here. The one good suggestion was AG on the Mawloc, which I would have included if it fit. The Flyrants are the least questionable thing you changed because they are so aggressive and can thin numbers out quite well, but after the first two I don't see how putting ALL your points into the basket of paying 20 pts per S6 AP- shot is going to be better than far more efficiently covering a broader range of targets with the Biovore squad and the Mawlocs? You are already getting dimishing returns on Powers and Synapse, this isn't like FMC spam where everything is flying, 2 units in that list stand out as pretty sore thumbs to be nailed by every single AT they have, making their role one even a Tyrannofex would do better in this list. Leaving you very very quickly with 900 points of units capable of threatening ANYTHING. Seems like a recipe for disaster tbqh, but maybe I just missed the logic behind this decision (which if I did, it is entirely because the only explanation you gave was "no, spam Flyrants instead!$$")
1. You have 4 forwards threats on Turn 1. I repeat, on TURN 1.
2. Due to them being FMC's, flyrants have more resiliency than both the dima or mawlocs. You will be doing a lot of shooting the entire game. That really adds up. There is no wasted offense with the flyrants. That's 48 TL S6 shots a turn, every turn, in addition to psychic powers that can do damage or screw with your opponent.
3. Psychic amplification. More chances to get Catalyst, meaning you could potentially FNP both dimas to increase their chances of making it into combat. Also, if you get multiple Psychic Screams, that could really help against infantry-based armies. Other powers could be great in the right situation.
4. Flyrants can act as the screening units for the dimas to provide them with cover. This is how you deploy. Bastion near ruins. Dimas in/on ruins for 2+ shrouded cover and then flyrants behind them and/or bastion. On your Turn 1, flyrants then leapfrog the dimas and into shooting range, all the while maintaining an optimal position to give your dimas cover. BTW, if you get Catalyst, you can put it on the dimas as well for 3+ shrouded cover and then 5+ FNP.
5. With regards to your list, why rely on a reserves-heavy tactic without any ways of manipulating reserves? While you are hoping 3/4 of your army will come in on Turn 2, it is also possible that 3/4 of your army just may come in on Turn 4. That's not what I call a good tarpit strategy. If you want to go reserve-heavy, you need the Comms Relay. Either that or pray that you get the right Warlord trait.
6. Malanthrope should advance with the dimas on Turn 2, when your opponent has to deal with the flyrants in his backfield. Just make sure the end of the dima's bases on within 6" of the bastion after their Run moves on Turn 1 (quite easy to do, considering how large their bases are). Then you can have 1 unit of troops embark onto the bastion. Also, here's a trick that you can employ. When placing objectives, place one behind your bastion. This way, even if you don't have any units near/in the bastion, your bastion will still be claiming the objective.
jy2 wrote: If I were to go dual-CAD, then there is no question which unit I would spam (and no, it isn't the mawlocs). At 1850 2x CAD, I'd go like this:
Mawloc - Adrenal Glands (so that he could more reliably kill tanks should he opt to stay on the table)
Bastion
1849
I'd really be tempted to drop the bastion and mawloc and get some decent troops. Saturation of small units would work wonders with the rest of the mc's in that list.
That's an option, though I have found the bastion to be a great force-multiplication unit (FMU) that has helped to make my entire army much, much tougher. I usually value FMU's much higher than I do regarding any single one unit and thus have chosen to run my lists with minimum troops and more FMU's (flyrants, bastion, malanthrope, etc.).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/06 15:29:14
I do see your logic with the Flyrants jy2 and I think you are very right. However I still don't agree on throwing that many points away to the bastion combo, when there's plenty of ways to do it without bringing a list -100 pts or whatever, but no real point in arguing that one lol. I like your deployment strategy but I think on top of doing that I'd rather secure the cover save for 5 pts and provide bubble wrap and a faster way out of 30 wound tarpits and a way to take the over watch, I think you'd be crazy not to there is no way rippers are outdoing those Horms in this list. I think you are very right and 4 Flyrants is a very good way to support the Dimas, more so than the Mawlocs even. However
you are hoping 3/4 of your army will come in on Turn 2, it is also possible that 3/4 of your army just may come in on Turn 4. That's not what I call a good tarpit strategy.
Yeah and it's equally as likely that you will fail 3/4 of the grounding checks with your Flyrants till turn 3, why are you taking wings if you could easily just end up having to play them like Dakkafexes?
Statistics and probability says neither of these things will happen very often. If I fail 1/3 reserve checks so be it - the points for a comms relay bastion is the price of another Mawloc with a 2/3 chance to hit the field. Even if it comes in the turn after - it stands the chance to earn it's points back, unlike the bastion. I'd be crippling my list by bringing it (if that was still my list, was like a 2min rough draft more to communicate how I felt you should play the model).
It seems we are on the same page of how the Dima needs to be played to be honest, just not on a couple of other things lol ah well all personal preference I guess.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/06 17:23:54
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/08/06 18:35:46
Subject: Re:Tyranids getting buffed by Forgeworld! Competitiveness discussion based on Frontline Gaming article
Fast
Dima 200
Dima 200
Hive crone, with stinger spines 165
Biovore 40
Biovore 40
cost -1850
Thoughts on above list- Each list is made up of a node of 1 Dima, supported by 1 mal and wrapped with 20 Hormagants. The hormagaunts will of course outpace both but thats fine since the Dima and mal will catch up a turn later while the Hormagants hold something(s) in place for assault. They can in turn have support from a flyrant each. Biovores can bomb the enemies backfield a little to try and put hurt on mobs/ long range shooty things. Terv, termagants, and hivecrone can support whichever sides needs help, and the rippers are there to contest/take an objective/force your opponent to shoot at a 45pt unit instead of something else.
Lots of target saturation that starts on board, 3 psykers for a total of 5 WC, 3 flyers, 5 models with synapse.
YEEEESSSS!!
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
2014/08/06 20:53:31
Subject: Tyranids getting buffed by Forgeworld! Competitiveness discussion based on Frontline Gaming article
Got my shiny new Malanthrope yesterday. Very nice model. Really excited to put him on the table top. Every time I look at his statline and abilities I am just stunned by how over the top he is.They could have removed so many of his little trinket abilities, or even reduced his stats by quite a bit, and he would still be worth the points.
jy2 wrote: If I were to go dual-CAD, then there is no question which unit I would spam (and no, it isn't the mawlocs). At 1850 2x CAD, I'd go like this:
3x Rippers - DS 3x Rippers - DS 3x Rippers - DS 3x Rippers
Do not understand the Ripper obsession. You need Gaunts to bubble-wrap against things like drop pods and scouting bikes. 1 maybe 2 squads of rippers might make sense if your opponent's ignore them aka doesn't know WTF they are doing, but This list is just begging to get alpha struck.
If you're really concerned about bubble-wrapping, then you can swap out 1 or 2 units of rippers for some gants. It's not a big deal.
Personally, I'm actually not too concerned about bubble wrapping. 6-7 MC's (depending if you want to reserve the mawloc or not) + 1 or 2 units of rippers starting off on the table is generally more than enough to bubble-wrap the bastion if you're really concerned about deepstriking armies. Not only that, but those MC's can provide cover for your bastion as well. BTW, deploy your bastion near board edges or certain terrain (i.e. impassable) and then it becomes even easier to bubble-wrap it. If they go for the flyrants, then jink for 2+ cover. Just make sure to put the bastion near terrain so the dimas can deploy in it.
I recently played against 4 alpha-strike marine armies (with all of them going 1st) at a tournament - 2 drop pod armies, 1 White Scars bike army and a centurionstar with Gate of Infinity - and I've come to realize that an Tyranid army utilizing the venom/malan-in-a-bastion strategy is actually pretty darn resilient, even to enemy alpha-strike lists.
RiTides wrote: Just wanted to say guys, this is all very helpful, so thanks for considering how you would run these!
Jy2 would you mind if I posted the single CAD list you shared with me for running 2 Dimas? I'm really considering giving it a try
Shuppet, I like where you're going with that list, but I feel like with the Dimas basically alone on the board, they're going to get shot to pieces? My thinking of how to best support them was to run Tyrannofexes alongside. With that sweet 2+ save model in front of them, and Malanthrope behind, a Dima could advance right behind the Tyrannofexes and then leap over them on the critical turn!
That's a lot of beef coming up the middle! But maybe a Crone and a Mawloc would be better than the Dakkafexes, to spread out the points?
After thinking about this list some more, I'm not so sure about the t-fex and dima combination. I suppose it's ok, but if you are planning to use the t-fexes as mobile cover, then he will actually slow down the dimas. If you deploy the dimas behind the t-fexes, that means they've got an additional 4-5" to go in order to reach the enemy. Moreover, if you roll poorly for the t-fexes' Run move, or if the t-fex stops to shoot, then it acts as a bottleneck for the dimas. So in this list, it is better to run the t-fexes and dimas side-by-side and to use the flyrants as mobile cover for the dimas instead.
omerakk wrote: I don't know if I can get behind the Bastion idea anymore. With the apparent shift to alpha striking armies that are all packing strong melta groups, it seems very likely you'll just lose the bastion and whatever was hiding inside on the first turn; unless you bubble wrap it with gaunt squads (which no lists seem to be doing)
Playing against alpha-strike armies is always a concern, but perhaps it is better for deepstriking meltas to go after the bastion than, say, your flyrants starting off on the ground?
Also, you can get creative against these types of armies. I had a game where I deployed the bastion, 1 flyrant and some Skyblight gargoyles on the opposite flank of where I placed my objective. Turn 1, 2 units of 10 sternguards and 1 unit of tactical marines drop in to go after my bastion and flyrant. Sure they took out my flyrant, but then I abandoned the bastion and focused on the objectives instead. Now he's got 30 marines (as well as 1 ObSec drop pod) in no-man's-land that were out of the action for the entire game as he struggled to get them back into the action (though game ended before they could).
But my list is just an idea. You can swap out some rippers for more gants if you don't feel comfortable about it.
blaktoof wrote: if the point of the list is to get the Dima across the table I am not sure many of those lists are any good.
Most of them come down to a lot of the army being reserved or flying, so you have few targets on the ground, one of which is the Dima. In some cases the only target on the ground is the Dima. I see it getting shot to bits a lot. Which I guess is okay for your other stuff to survive but it defeats the purpose of building a list to support the Dima.
Unfortunately, there is no avoiding it. Your dimas WILL get shot to heck. People are so psychologically afraid of it that they will focus on it. However, if they do so, then they've got the wrong target prioritization down. A dima with 3+ cover and potentially FNP from a flyrant takes a huge amount of firepower to take out. Meanwhile, the rest of your army is safe to advance and in the case of the flyrant, free to continue providing consistent offense.
The purpose of the dima isn't necessarily to kill stuff in combat, though he can do that exceptionally well. What he is to the army is another threat that just cannot be ignored, even if he isn't the fastest bug around. He will DEMAND attention from the opponent and he can soak up quite a bit of damage. The real secret as to why he is good is because he will allow the flyrants to continue functioning as the main offense of the army and to do so unmolested. And if your dima actually makes it into combat, then I actually consider that a bonus.
SHUPPET wrote: I do see your logic with the Flyrants jy2 and I think you are very right.
It seems we are on the same page of how the Dima needs to be played to be honest, just not on a couple of other things lol ah well all personal preference I guess.
Thank you. I knew you'd come around to seeing it my way. Well, the main part, that is.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/06 23:19:13
blaktoof wrote: if the point of the list is to get the Dima across the table I am not sure many of those lists are any good.
Most of them come down to a lot of the army being reserved or flying, so you have few targets on the ground, one of which is the Dima. In some cases the only target on the ground is the Dima. I see it getting shot to bits a lot. Which I guess is okay for your other stuff to survive but it defeats the purpose of building a list to support the Dima.
Unfortunately, there is no avoiding it. Your dimas WILL get shot to heck. People are so psychologically afraid of it that they will focus on it. However, if they do so, then they've got the wrong target prioritization down. A dima with 3+ cover and potentially FNP from a flyrant takes a huge amount of firepower to take out. Meanwhile, the rest of your army is safe to advance and in the case of the flyrant, free to continue providing consistent offense.
The purpose of the dima isn't necessarily to kill stuff in combat, though he can do that exceptionally well. What he is to the army is another threat that just cannot be ignored, even if he isn't the fastest bug around. He will DEMAND attention from the opponent and he can soak up quite a bit of damage. The real secret as to why he is good is because he will allow the flyrants to continue functioning as the main offense of the army and to do so unmolested. And if your dima actually makes it into combat, then I actually consider that a bonus.
I see his point of view. I think a Nidzilla list might be a better utilization of the of the Dima. I just am not seeing alot of synergy with Flying circus.
Spoiler:
HQ:
The Swarmlord -> Preferred enemy would be a buff to the Dimachaeron
+ 2 Tyrant Guard
Tervigon (E. Grubs)
After watching a trio of games using Maelstrom missions, I`m convinced the Dima will be a much stronger choice in 7th edition. Now instead of placing objectives super aggressively in the opponents deployment zone so you can be there at the end of the game to score, Tyranids will place objectives in their own deployment zone/midfield, forcing enemies to come to them.
2014/08/07 02:40:52
Subject: Tyranids getting buffed by Forgeworld! Competitiveness discussion based on Frontline Gaming article
I see his point of view. I think a Nidzilla list might be a better utilization of the of the Dima. I just am not seeing alot of synergy with Flying circus.
Spoiler:
HQ:
The Swarmlord -> Preferred enemy would be a buff to the Dimachaeron
+ 2 Tyrant Guard
Tervigon (E. Grubs)
There are a lot of armies that are going to have trouble with that many MC's. And your Dima's are going to see combat.
Drop a Carnifex for a bastion with a Void Shield and barricades if you want, or if you fear Knights, you can Swap a Carnifex for a Stone Crusher.
Using a Dima as a distraction unit to draw fire away from Flyrants just isn't really taking advantage of what it does well.
Either ways, if the opponent wants to shoot at the dimas, they will, no matter if you are running a flying list or a walking list. The difference is this:
With a flying list like my quad-flyrant one, the flyrants are up in your opponent's face on Turn 1. If he wants to shoot at the dimas, then he does so at the risk of flyrants assaulting and shooting each and every turn. The flyrants stand to do much more damage whereas the dimas are not a threat, at least not until T3 most likely. Thus, if he picks his target prioritization properly, the dimas should stand a decent chance of making it into the action.
Against a primarily walking list (not necessarily yours, but something like it), there is no urgency in target prioritization. Your opponent can take his time to shoot down the dimas with no pressure to his army. Thus, the dimas are much less likely to make it into any type of action in this type of list, especially if your opponent chooses to prioritize them first as a target. BTW, this type of list will have almost NO chance against the likes of the more shooty armies like Tau, mechdar and DE venom-spam.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/07 02:41:06
I'm actually well behind what jy2 is saying here for once , except for kind of the part where Dimas are the wrong target priority, they are very points effecient to shoot at... But then again Flyrants are usually high priority targets, so if you are diverting fire from them it's pretty much a 12 W buffer making your Flyrants very durable. So there is some truth to the statement it's not very points effecient however. I think it's all the more reason you can't afford to waste points on the bastion, 2 Dimas puts you on a low level of threats till mid-late game, another 200 pts or so supporting them with bastion shenanigans could easily have been tweaked into another Dima or at the very least, the squad of Biovores. Almost every list should run at least one squad of Biovores they always make their points back and Hardcounter most Ruin-dwellers. The reason you've found your Bastion so survivable - is because it's wasted points! They only way for it to make it's points back is if they DO waste enough firepower on it to kill it IMO. I don't think it's a terrible strategy FYI it can be a solid way to protect and extend your Thrope investment, I'm different to most as I do not enjoy investing too much into the cover-cloud strategy as there is too much cover ignoring to guarantee your investment! 1x 45 points of Venomthrope is always worth it because not everything ignores cover, he forces an extra Markerlight or two, and wastes at least one full units shooting if they kill it (sometimes more relevant than others) and with LoS blocking sometimes out lives my expectations. However the whole bastion trick I find unreliable, I build TAC and against some armies it's ~150 points wasted - too much.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/08/07 04:46:18
Subject: Tyranids getting buffed by Forgeworld! Competitiveness discussion based on Frontline Gaming article
I see his point of view. I think a Nidzilla list might be a better utilization of the of the Dima. I just am not seeing alot of synergy with Flying circus.
[spoiler]HQ: The Swarmlord -> Preferred enemy would be a buff to the Dimachaeron + 2 Tyrant Guard Tervigon (E. Grubs)
Elite Malanthrope Malanthrope
Troop 12 HGaunt 12 HGaunt
Fast Dimachaeron Dimachaeron 20 Gargoyles
Heavy: Carnifex (2 Tl-Devourers) Carnifex (2 Tl-Devourers) Carnifex (2 Tl-Devourers) There are a lot of armies that are going to have trouble with that many MC's. And your Dima's are going to see combat.
Drop a Carnifex for a bastion with a Void Shield and barricades if you want, or if you fear Knights, you can Swap a Carnifex for a Stone Crusher.
Using a Dima as a distraction unit to draw fire away from Flyrants just isn't really taking advantage of what it does well.
Either ways, if the opponent wants to shoot at the dimas, they will, no matter if you are running a flying list or a walking list. The difference is this:
With a flying list like my quad-flyrant one, the flyrants are up in your opponent's face on Turn 1. If he wants to shoot at the dimas, then he does so at the risk of flyrants assaulting and shooting each and every turn. The flyrants stand to do much more damage whereas the dimas are not a threat, at least not until T3 most likely. Thus, if he picks his target prioritization properly, the dimas should stand a decent chance of making it into the action. [/spoiler] Against a primarily walking list (not necessarily yours, but something like it), there is no urgency in target prioritization. Your opponent can take his time to shoot down the dimas with no pressure to his army. Thus, the dimas are much less likely to make it into any type of action in this type of list, especially if your opponent chooses to prioritize them first as a target. BTW, this type of list will have almost NO chance against the likes of the more shooty armies like Tau, mechdar and DE venom-spam.
I agree 100%. I wrote a little paragraph detailing the matchup problems, and then deleted it. Slow MC's get dominated by such lists. The Dima is a slow MC.
On the other hand, your 4 Flyrant list doesn't exactly dominate Tau either. 3 Burst Tides + 3 Missile Sides + Buffmander + 2 Skyrays + Marker lights is taking down 1-2 Flyrants and a Dima every turn. Everything Tyranids have, Tau have an answer to. You fare marginally better against Mechdar because at least you can hit back a bit more.
On the topic of Target prioritization. Your 4 Flyrant list would be better with Crones instead of Dima's because 1) the Dima's aren't properly supported. 2) the Crones match the flyrants in speed, and give the opponent a more challenging target prioritization. My Nidzilla list is packed with redundancy making target prioritization a problem. We've got 3 terrifying assault units (2 Dimas, Swarmlord), 3 high firepower shooty units (Dakkafexes), and 4 Durable Syanpse units (Swarmlord, Tervigon, 2 Malenthrope). What are you going to shoot first?
Are 4 Flyrants better than Nidzilla? Definitely. But do 4 Flyrants work well with 2 Dimas? I don't really think so. It seems to me, Dimas have Nidzilla written all over them, and aren't as good as Dakkafexes in other Tyranid lists, because of the extra one to two turns before they can contribute. Dakkafexes are plenty deadly in assault. The Dima has the problem of not being able to stick in assault. Most assaults are going to end on the first turn meaning it can never avoid the opponent's shooting phase.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/07 04:47:48
2014/08/07 05:20:31
Subject: Tyranids getting buffed by Forgeworld! Competitiveness discussion based on Frontline Gaming article
6ish wounds before saves/FNP against WS4/T4 assuming on the charge/10ish attacks (iirc?), so yeah pretty much over if you're running into MSU marine units, but he should finish the combat during opponent's turn if there are more guys to chew up.
so, he's overkill in CC on the units he's likely to catch, if he can actually catch them. oh, tyranids, you so funny.
2014/08/07 06:09:26
Subject: Re:Tyranids getting buffed by Forgeworld! Competitiveness discussion based on Frontline Gaming article
omerakk wrote: I don't know if I can get behind the Bastion idea anymore. With the apparent shift to alpha striking armies that are all packing strong melta groups, it seems very likely you'll just lose the bastion and whatever was hiding inside on the first turn; unless you bubble wrap it with gaunt squads (which no lists seem to be doing)
Are you saying buildings get cover saves from intervening units by being partially obscured? Otherwise there's no way Gants help against dropping Meltas.
2014/08/07 06:15:25
Subject: Tyranids getting buffed by Forgeworld! Competitiveness discussion based on Frontline Gaming article
I'm torn with Flyrants. 4 is definitely too much it just leaves you with no points to play with. I think 3 might be good, or maybe just the standard two. For most lists I think more than 2 is suicide I think for Dimas they are important for thinning down numbers early game and lowering return fire. I think some combination of Flyrants Mawlocs & Biovores.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/08/07 06:34:32
Subject: Tyranids getting buffed by Forgeworld! Competitiveness discussion based on Frontline Gaming article
I agree 2 should be in nearly all lists, he's for starters our only really points effecient Synapse ( as in, he doesn't appear to pay a bunch of points for it) and he is also the best at projecting it with 24" move and Dominion as per standard not much he can't reach. On top of that they are the chisel to our hammer, being very good at applying the TLDevs with plenty of opportunitys to find LoS, skirt their cover, hit rear armour, and do it all at BS 4 and an effective 42" range as opposed to the regular 24" BS3 for nearly the entirety of the rest of the dex. Random Powers and Synapse seem almost a bonus as he'd be quite playable without, even at the same price.
However it IS a large price, and like all chisels, for them to work the need the weight of a heavy enough hammer to drive them home. Taking too much Flyrant leaves you low on actual volume of fire instead being all specialised at applying it, and there is a limit to how many situations and how far this advantage will take you.
I think 2 is enough, possibly 3 in a Dima list. Any more and you are well behind on volume of fire with a ice pick in one hand trying to hammer it in with a dentists tooth tapper.
Hope the analogy helped!
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/08/07 07:03:00
Subject: Re:Tyranids getting buffed by Forgeworld! Competitiveness discussion based on Frontline Gaming article
I really like the Dima model, would be cool if you could build a decent list around it. Here's my take on a fun version that may or may not make it out of beer&pretzels-land. What I've found that it you can dominate the close combat game (and thus the center of the board), you have the upper hand in Maelstrom missions.
The whole "mess up target priority" is a really bad catch phrase that seems synonymous with Tyranids. Your opponent shooting the wrong thing is not something you should ever rely on! Hoping your opponent makes a critical mistake and shoots the wrong thing to build a list around! The more it works the worse your opponent is, 40k being an unbalanced game does mean a terrible player with zero game sense can still get great results with Wave Serpents or whatever, but a good strategy is one that aims to beat the BEST player of a list of that type! Well this is my opinion on it anyway.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/08/07 09:02:58
Subject: Re:Tyranids getting buffed by Forgeworld! Competitiveness discussion based on Frontline Gaming article
I'm not relying on my opponents shooting the wrong things, list building around Dimas is about filling up with things that need to die.
There will be many situations where people don't want 25 jump pack rending attacks in their backyard turn 2, plus picking off the synapse web is seldom a bad choice. Also T4 makes them juicy for S8. Shrikes can be whittled down by small arms fire, but so can Raveners and just about anything else in the Fast Attack slot that would support Dimas.
2014/08/07 10:37:00
Subject: Tyranids getting buffed by Forgeworld! Competitiveness discussion based on Frontline Gaming article
Sorry it wasn't aimed at you so much N.I.B. or your list, but lists with Dima it's going to be hard to find stuff that does it. Shrikes can do it decently actually throwing themselves into threat range quickly and tiring or tearing something up in combat if ignored thanks to their speed. I just wanted to say something bout the phrase, I see things like "doing ____ wreaks havoc with their target priority!" and the like thrown about willynilly, when really.., it doesn't do that at all, sensible people don't fall for distraction Carnifex tactics, they shoot the Dima before it assaults their key unit and makes their points back.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/08/07 12:37:35
Subject: Re:Tyranids getting buffed by Forgeworld! Competitiveness discussion based on Frontline Gaming article
omerakk wrote: I don't know if I can get behind the Bastion idea anymore. With the apparent shift to alpha striking armies that are all packing strong melta groups, it seems very likely you'll just lose the bastion and whatever was hiding inside on the first turn; unless you bubble wrap it with gaunt squads (which no lists seem to be doing)
Are you saying buildings get cover saves from intervening units by being partially obscured? Otherwise there's no way Gants help against dropping Meltas.
No
i think he means make sure to spread them out so the podded units cant' get within 12". it's not too hard to do.
This
2014/08/07 12:59:20
Subject: Tyranids getting buffed by Forgeworld! Competitiveness discussion based on Frontline Gaming article
SHUPPET wrote: Sorry RiTides, didn't realise you had followed the Tyranid Strategy thread and still wanted to discuss how you use them, I thought this was more a question on whether they were good models or not.
If I was going to run the Dima, hes overpriced defensively and offensively and this is silly to argue, so taking this into account the list needs to be built around the decisions and map control he forces which is what he does best. Running 1 will just be an expensive waste of wounds, I think 2-3 minimum is necessary. I think my build look something like this:
It wants to be capable of fighting and even punishing a backfield deployment, Mawlocs do this great for him and tarpit extremely well regardless of the situation, and are almost never anything but really cost effective. It's also putting down 18 T6 wounds turn 2 in the middle of their army (assuming 3 out of 4 come in from reserves), 26 if you include the Flyrants, this may force your opponent to focus something other than Dimas, although I think a good player will still just finish at least one the Dimas before they do anything. The other good thing about Mawlocs is that they do a massive burst damage turn 2, combined with Flyrants may be just enough to water down incoming fire to allow the Dimas to assault turn 3, through virtue of also having the 3+ cover save thanks to Thrope + screen. Hormagants are there to screen the Dimas, not sure if they are big enough, if not a unit of Gargs (or turning one of your troops into Warriors) is worthwhile for that 3+ cover save. I'm also not sure on the size of Dima model so IF he is big enough to block LoS to a Venomthrope but not big enough to block a Malanthrope, than the Venom is a better choice here, and change one of the units of Horms or Rippers into Warriors, for Synapse. This list assumes you either can or can't block LoS to BOTH of them. 3 Dimas might be better than 2 but would require dropping a Mawloc, making the Biovores extremely cost in-effecient at basically a 200 pt squad when you factor in the Ripper tax for dual CAD, make single FOC probably the better option if you go this route. You also probably only need one Flyrant the second is for dual FOC, so there is different ways to achieve what this list is trying to do, look at it as a building block. This list comes out just below 1850, I'm not going to dedicate too much time to tightening it up but you get the idea of how I feel the best way to play him would be.
You sure don't know how to make a list without spamming units x3 onwards
He explained in a very detailed way why he was picking each unit and how they synergize with each other. It is better than just going 'well this is the best unit in the dex so im going to spam this without any explanation as to how it works with other units'.
I actually think this to be an exceptionally strong list. 2 FMC's, 4 deepstriking MCs which eat people on arrival, 2 uber combat MC's moving up with a small number of units giving them a 3+ cover. Supported by artillery.
2014/08/07 13:00:31
Subject: Tyranids getting buffed by Forgeworld! Competitiveness discussion based on Frontline Gaming article
I'm not big into the competitive scene, and I'm completely behind on nid tactics, but if you don't mind me asking, what role is a bastion playing in a Tyranid army that you need to protect it with a wall of bodies ?
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
