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 adamsouza wrote:
I'm not big into the competitive scene, and I'm completely behind on nid tactics, but if you don't mind me asking, what role is a bastion playing in a Tyranid army that you need to protect it with a wall of bodies ?

One of the more popular tactics for Nids is to but an Imperial Bastion and put a Venomthrope inside. This tactic has received various nicknames (Bastionthrope, Venom-in-a-box) but the main premise is that the Venomthrope gives shrouded to everything within 6" of the Bastion, which is a much larger bubble than if he was on the ground. For Tyranids, this goes miles into protecting us from an alpha strike, as we can guarantee almost our entire army starts the game with shrouding. Combined with Jink saves or the Barricades that a Bastion may purchase, we can give a 2++ cover save to many units in our army. Fortunately the Bastion in AV 14 all around and very difficult to kill. Unfortunately, killing the bastion means 4d6 strength 6 hits on the unit inside: That kills the venomthrope inside every time. So, we protect the Bastion! With a shield of gants or gargoyles it isn't hard to place models so that it is impossible to put a Drop Pod within 6" of the Bastion, which is that crucial melta range. By preventing meltaguns getting in range you can protect the Bastion, and remain shrouded, for a rather long time. It's also quite possible that you have another unit on top, like Biovores or a synapse unit, that will enjoy not having their Bastion blown up.

The other benefits of having your bastion alive is that it can block Line of sight more completely and without question than just about any Nid unit we have. Put your Emperor's Will behind this puppy and wrap those gants around, and an AM gunline will never be able to draw Line of Sight to the models on it. It is also tall enough to block Line of sight to a Flyrant or give a cover save to a Crone.

EDIT: But, we now have the Malanthrope from Forge World, which changes things... compared to a Venomthrope, Malanthropes are super durable and can advance up field or stay put without the fear of getting killed by the first enemy unit with a glimpse of target priority. A unit if multiple Malanthropes is tough enough that they don't necessarily need a Bastion to hide in. For just one, I'd advise it, but otherwise.the Bastion may not be needed. If you want to play your Malanthropes in a more aggressive role where they advance instead of sitting still I would advise the Bastion.

I see most lists with 1 or 2 Malanthropes. So to me, the Bastion question is sort of moot- if you decide to run 2 Malanthropes, it's basically the same cost as 1 Malanthrope plus Bastion, so the rest of the list will look similar. I'm going to get 2 Malanthropes and will try out both variants

Jifel, I've seen you mention barricades a few times. If you bring a Bastion, you could purchase up to 2 of these Barricades (at 10 points a pop) right? Are they just the long sections of the Aegis, needing to be deployed within a certain range of the Bastion?

Appreciate your clarifying, thanks . I'd love to put those in my list, but since I think they're only costed out as upgrades in Stronghold Assault, it seems to me like some events aren't allowing them (at least it looks like the most recent BAO did not, and I'm checking on others).

 RiTides wrote:
I see most lists with 1 or 2 Malanthropes. So to me, the Bastion question is sort of moot- if you decide to run 2 Malanthropes, it's basically the same cost as 1 Malanthrope plus Bastion, so the rest of the list will look similar. I'm going to get 2 Malanthropes and will try out both variants

Jifel, I've seen you mention barricades a few times. If you bring a Bastion, you could purchase up to 2 of these Barricades (at 10 points a pop) right? Are they just the long sections of the Aegis, needing to be deployed within a certain range of the Bastion?

Appreciate your clarifying, thanks . I'd love to put those in my list, but since I think they're only costed out as upgrades in Stronghold Assault, it seems to me like some events aren't allowing them (at least it looks like the most recent BAO did not, and I'm checking on others).

Barricades are technically described as "small sections (each no longer than 6")". The long section of an Aegis, what I use, is shorter than that but I am way too lazy to convert new barricades. A Bastion can actually purchase six of these bad boys if needed, at ten points each, but I find that 2-3 is enough for me. Strangely height is never mentioned in the description, which could lead to some hilarious abuse... but I personally think an Aegis height is most reasonable to assume. Also barricades simply must be placed anywhere on the table within 6" of the fortification, but are separate from them.

They are only available in stronghold, but every tournament I've been to (the ATC and small local stuff) has allowed full upgrades, just to a limited number of buildings. Most stores will be fine with you upgrading your Bastion. I just use them to guarantee a 2++ cover save for my Flyrants without having to jink, plus they are tall enough to hide Rippers behind!

I love this thread, guys. So many good ideas here, and not just about the Dima. Special shout outs go to jifel, SHUPPET and jy2. Keep up the good work!

The Malenthrope is so insanely good for the amount of points it costs that it borders on broken, honestly. It conjures up memories of the Doom of Malentai.

Our game group has a Tyranid player and he's sort of considering getting one, but the rules for it are so good that he feels like it would be unfair of him to put it on the table against any army except Eldar.

Malenthrope is clearly the best of the lot but...he's also big.
Ok, he has T5 and 4 wounds, and yeah, there isn't much Str10 in the game.
And he has shrouding, but still, hiding him is hard and he could be ID'd by a WraithKnight.

Venoms are just easier to hide and you can get 2 for the price of a Malenthrope.

I'm not convinced by the other bits released. its all a bit meh to me.

I also disagree with one point Reecius made regarding objective secured units:
"and while they do take objectives, everything in the Nid book does that now so comparatively, that advantage is not what it was last edition".

Objective secured is still a huge advantage and shouldn't be downplayed.

I wouldn't call the Malanthropes broken by any means- it's essentially a Tyranid Warrior and a Venomthrope mashed together. It will work for some lists, and be meh for others.

Murrdox wrote:
The Malenthrope is so insanely good for the amount of points it costs that it borders on broken, honestly. It conjures up memories of the Doom of Malentai.

Our game group has a Tyranid player and he's sort of considering getting one, but the rules for it are so good that he feels like it would be unfair of him to put it on the table against any army except Eldar.

The Malanthrope is great for Tyranids because he compensates for what is not a very well balanced book. Remember that his damage output is almost nonexistant, and that he is slow... I will say he is a great unit, but he is not broken, and is still a tier below the Doom of Malan'tai in my opinion. It would be unfair as part of an Eldar army, but when you consider that it's in the Nid army it isn't quite as broken as it seems. For me, the best part is that I can essentially wrap up a Zoey and Venom in one unit to reduce my armies Kill Point potential by one.

Malanthrope does great in CC for the record, wounding everything on 2+ is great.

 Iechine wrote:
Malanthrope does great in CC for the record, wounding everything on 2+ is great.

If it gets there it isn't bad, but I wouldn't send it in there alone, and it's slow enough that I wouldn't count on it. It is quite nice when it works, but usually I'd only send it in against a soft target like a guard squad, and those tend to be long dead by the time I get there...

blaktoof wrote:
List idea for Dimas

HQ-

HT, wings 2 x TLD w/ BL 230
HT, wings 2 x TLD w/ BL 230

Elite-
Mal 85
Mal 85

Troops
20 Hormagants 100
20 Hormagants 100
30 Termagants 120
Tervigon w/ crushing claws 210
3 Rippers w/ deep strike 45

Fast
Dima 200
Dima 200
Hive crone, with stinger spines 165

Biovore 40
Biovore 40

cost -1850

Thoughts on above list- Each list is made up of a node of 1 Dima, supported by 1 mal and wrapped with 20 Hormagants. The hormagaunts will of course outpace both but thats fine since the Dima and mal will catch up a turn later while the Hormagants hold something(s) in place for assault. They can in turn have support from a flyrant each. Biovores can bomb the enemies backfield a little to try and put hurt on mobs/ long range shooty things. Terv, termagants, and hivecrone can support whichever sides needs help, and the rippers are there to contest/take an objective/force your opponent to shoot at a 45pt unit instead of something else.

Lots of target saturation that starts on board, 3 psykers for a total of 5 WC, 3 flyers, 5 models with synapse.

Nice! I would change it, but that is just to suit my own "style" (I would drop the Biovore, and the Rippers, add x2 Zoeys, and take Hive Commander. ) I do agree that the way to make most Any Nid unit work is to use it with other Nid units in mutual support.

I dont find the Malathrope broken at all; I think it is just a very solid unit that has a place in most tyranid lists.

I also disagree with one point Reecius made regarding objective secured units:
"and while they do take objectives, everything in the Nid book does that now so comparatively, that advantage is not what it was last edition".

Objective secured is still a huge advantage and shouldn't be downplayed.

I also feel that objective secured is far more useful to the other races than it is to tyranids... aka, races that get transports and allow their OS units to zip around the map at will. Tyranids troops dont have that kind of utility. Our only speedy options here would be the gargoyles from skyblight or a deepstriking ripper swarm.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
After watching a trio of games using Maelstrom missions, I`m convinced the Dima will be a much stronger choice in 7th edition. Now instead of placing objectives super aggressively in the opponents deployment zone so you can be there at the end of the game to score, Tyranids will place objectives in their own deployment zone/midfield, forcing enemies to come to them.

Word. Maelstrom has changed the dynamic of the game. One "rule of thumb" has been "Armies that advance towards Nids lose " And now armies have valid reasons to advance, that works wonders for our chances of victory.

I don't think I'll be buying a Dime anytime soon (if ever) But I look at it and see a tool for using the "Shiny Model Stratagem" i.e.; Look! this unit is scary...here it comes! Booga Booga!! It munches bullets, and the hive eats the foe.

Jy2, I am enjoying the insights you've been sharing. I also give serious though to Force Multipliers, witness my obsession with Zoey. Despite our similar analysis, we produce starkly different lists. Thus "Style" is revealed. I tend to say "I have these FMU, so my swarms of Troops can do more! You tend to say "I have these FMU's so I don't need swarms of Troops. And we are both correct.

Thanx for taking the time to share you knowlage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 adamsouza wrote:
I'm not big into the competitive scene, and I'm completely behind on nid tactics, but if you don't mind me asking, what role is a bastion playing in a Tyranid army that you need to protect it with a wall of bodies ?

Several things, first the disclaimer: I don't play the "in a box", One, a guaranteed block LOS item., Two, the Shroud effect of our bugs is measured from the outside, thus making it much bigger (a small thing, but perfection is found in the small details) Three, a durable challenge for the foe, you can use it to secure a Objective, control table space, etc...Four, you can add extras that can act as Force Multipliers (Comms relay, AA weapon, Ammo Dump, etc)

If it fits your "style" that is plenty of reasons to get one. (and to protect your investment)

tag8833 wrote:

I agree 100%. I wrote a little paragraph detailing the matchup problems, and then deleted it. Slow MC's get dominated by such lists. The Dima is a slow MC.

On the other hand, your 4 Flyrant list doesn't exactly dominate Tau either. 3 Burst Tides + 3 Missile Sides + Buffmander + 2 Skyrays + Marker lights is taking down 1-2 Flyrants and a Dima every turn. Everything Tyranids have, Tau have an answer to. You fare marginally better against Mechdar because at least you can hit back a bit more.

On the topic of Target prioritization. Your 4 Flyrant list would be better with Crones instead of Dima's because 1) the Dima's aren't properly supported. 2) the Crones match the flyrants in speed, and give the opponent a more challenging target prioritization. My Nidzilla list is packed with redundancy making target prioritization a problem. We've got 3 terrifying assault units (2 Dimas, Swarmlord), 3 high firepower shooty units (Dakkafexes), and 4 Durable Syanpse units (Swarmlord, Tervigon, 2 Malenthrope). What are you going to shoot first?

Are 4 Flyrants better than Nidzilla? Definitely. But do 4 Flyrants work well with 2 Dimas? I don't really think so. It seems to me, Dimas have Nidzilla written all over them, and aren't as good as Dakkafexes in other Tyranid lists, because of the extra one to two turns before they can contribute. Dakkafexes are plenty deadly in assault. The Dima has the problem of not being able to stick in assault. Most assaults are going to end on the first turn meaning it can never avoid the opponent's shooting phase.

I've never made any claim that a flying Tyranid list will dominate the likes of Tau. No matter what you run, tyranids will always have a tough time against a good Tau army. Tau just naturally counters Tyranids (as well as a lot of armies) much in the same way that DE venom-spam used to counter nidzilla back in 5th. To play against Tau (and other super-shooty armies), you need mobility. That is why a mobile Tyranid army (such as one with lots of flyrants and other fast units) will always stand a better chance than a ground-&-pound bug list. But tyranids, even one with quad-flyrants, is far from dominating against a good Tau list. Rather, a fast Tyranid army will have a fighting chance against these types of lists instead of just being slaughtered.

With regards to the dimas, I recommend you test out both builds against the likes of a good tournament Tau/Eldar army to see for yourself how each will play out.

As for assaults, sure you can. If you want to stay locked in combat, on the turn that you charge, just do a Smash attack. Then you can wipe out the enemy on his Assault phase.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iechine wrote:
Malanthrope does great in CC for the record, wounding everything on 2+ is great.

Don't forget that he is S5, meaning he would get to re-roll wounds against most infantry.

pinecone77 wrote:

Jy2, I am enjoying the insights you've been sharing. I also give serious though to Force Multipliers, witness my obsession with Zoey. Despite our similar analysis, we produce starkly different lists. Thus "Style" is revealed. I tend to say "I have these FMU, so my swarms of Troops can do more! You tend to say "I have these FMU's so I don't need swarms of Troops. And we are both correct.

Thanx for taking the time to share you knowlage.

You're welcome. Yeah, a lot of it does come down to playstyle-preference. There isn't just 1 way to build a competitive Tyranid army and I never advocate that you should only play bugs a certain way.

For me, personally, I like the flexibility of deepstriking rippers as opposed to swarms of Tyranid gribblies. That is because I prefer to play a game of denial and positioning. Reserve my troops and you have no idea where they will be coming in. Moreover, I can then contest those far objectives with an ObSec unit whereas gribblies would have a hard time getting there. That is just my playstyle preference, although I will admit that it has given me good results. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with running hordes of Tyranid gribblies as well and, depending on the matchups, sometimes such an army can net you better results. So yeah, there is no real wrong way to build a Tyranid army. Rather, it is just a matter of building a list to your taste and then fine-tuning/optimizing it.

I've been trying to think out how to incorporate he dima into my deep striking surprise nids. Much like others were saying, plan on a malamthrope in a bastion to start the game. Mine has comms for the strikers. Dima can stand on top in that oodles of space. With the malamthrope bubble tha gives him 2+ cover save. If anyone approaches, the leap ability allows me to step rigt off the bastion and assault the enemy with a very scary monster. Depending upon opponents situationally a pair of flyrants hide behind the bastion giving it half of its bubble wrap. When the rest of the army arrives in turn two, flyrants take off and as the situation dictates, dima and malamthrope head where they are needed.

From what little I have seen of seventh edition, games now largely occur in the center of the board anyway. So the threat range from the front of your deployment zone should be able to threaten one or two secondary objectives, if your opponent targets it a 2+ cover will be hard to be through first turn. Over shelling targets turn two will keep it a lower priority.

Thank you Jifel and PineCone77 for the replies.

I had guessed the LOS blocking and Force Multiplier virtues, but hadn't known about Shroud, or thought about using it to secure objectives.

 jy2 wrote:

Spoiler:

tag8833 wrote:

I agree 100%. I wrote a little paragraph detailing the matchup problems, and then deleted it. Slow MC's get dominated by such lists. The Dima is a slow MC.

On the other hand, your 4 Flyrant list doesn't exactly dominate Tau either. 3 Burst Tides + 3 Missile Sides + Buffmander + 2 Skyrays + Marker lights is taking down 1-2 Flyrants and a Dima every turn. Everything Tyranids have, Tau have an answer to. You fare marginally better against Mechdar because at least you can hit back a bit more.

On the topic of Target prioritization. Your 4 Flyrant list would be better with Crones instead of Dima's because 1) the Dima's aren't properly supported. 2) the Crones match the flyrants in speed, and give the opponent a more challenging target prioritization. My Nidzilla list is packed with redundancy making target prioritization a problem. We've got 3 terrifying assault units (2 Dimas, Swarmlord), 3 high firepower shooty units (Dakkafexes), and 4 Durable Syanpse units (Swarmlord, Tervigon, 2 Malenthrope). What are you going to shoot first?

Are 4 Flyrants better than Nidzilla? Definitely. But do 4 Flyrants work well with 2 Dimas? I don't really think so. It seems to me, Dimas have Nidzilla written all over them, and aren't as good as Dakkafexes in other Tyranid lists, because of the extra one to two turns before they can contribute. Dakkafexes are plenty deadly in assault. The Dima has the problem of not being able to stick in assault. Most assaults are going to end on the first turn meaning it can never avoid the opponent's shooting phase.

I've never made any claim that a flying Tyranid list will dominate the likes of Tau. No matter what you run, tyranids will always have a tough time against a good Tau army. Tau just naturally counters Tyranids (as well as a lot of armies) much in the same way that DE venom-spam used to counter nidzilla back in 5th. To play against Tau (and other super-shooty armies), you need mobility. That is why a mobile Tyranid army (such as one with lots of flyrants and other fast units) will always stand a better chance than a ground-&-pound bug list. But tyranids, even one with quad-flyrants, is far from dominating against a good Tau list. Rather, a fast Tyranid army will have a fighting chance against these types of lists instead of just being slaughtered.

With regards to the dimas, I recommend you test out both builds against the likes of a good tournament Tau/Eldar army to see for yourself how each will play out.

I would recommend likewise. My thinking is that my list wins a pile more maelstrom missions, while your list wins more eternal war missions. Meanwhile, an actually good list that doesn't include the Dima wins far more Missions than either of us. He is a situationally useful unit that doesn't really have a place in a top tier tyranid TAC list, but might have a place in a themed Nidzilla list.

I'll be playtesting him to verify my initial reaction in the coming weeks, and I'll definitely leave my thoughts once I've done so.

 jy2 wrote:
As for assaults, sure you can. If you want to stay locked in combat, on the turn that you charge, just do a Smash attack. Then you can wipe out the enemy on his Assault phase.

Good trick that. A failure of imagination on my part. I will take that lesson to heart.

tag8833 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Spoiler:

tag8833 wrote:

I agree 100%. I wrote a little paragraph detailing the matchup problems, and then deleted it. Slow MC's get dominated by such lists. The Dima is a slow MC.

On the other hand, your 4 Flyrant list doesn't exactly dominate Tau either. 3 Burst Tides + 3 Missile Sides + Buffmander + 2 Skyrays + Marker lights is taking down 1-2 Flyrants and a Dima every turn. Everything Tyranids have, Tau have an answer to. You fare marginally better against Mechdar because at least you can hit back a bit more.

On the topic of Target prioritization. Your 4 Flyrant list would be better with Crones instead of Dima's because 1) the Dima's aren't properly supported. 2) the Crones match the flyrants in speed, and give the opponent a more challenging target prioritization. My Nidzilla list is packed with redundancy making target prioritization a problem. We've got 3 terrifying assault units (2 Dimas, Swarmlord), 3 high firepower shooty units (Dakkafexes), and 4 Durable Syanpse units (Swarmlord, Tervigon, 2 Malenthrope). What are you going to shoot first?

Are 4 Flyrants better than Nidzilla? Definitely. But do 4 Flyrants work well with 2 Dimas? I don't really think so. It seems to me, Dimas have Nidzilla written all over them, and aren't as good as Dakkafexes in other Tyranid lists, because of the extra one to two turns before they can contribute. Dakkafexes are plenty deadly in assault. The Dima has the problem of not being able to stick in assault. Most assaults are going to end on the first turn meaning it can never avoid the opponent's shooting phase.

I've never made any claim that a flying Tyranid list will dominate the likes of Tau. No matter what you run, tyranids will always have a tough time against a good Tau army. Tau just naturally counters Tyranids (as well as a lot of armies) much in the same way that DE venom-spam used to counter nidzilla back in 5th. To play against Tau (and other super-shooty armies), you need mobility. That is why a mobile Tyranid army (such as one with lots of flyrants and other fast units) will always stand a better chance than a ground-&-pound bug list. But tyranids, even one with quad-flyrants, is far from dominating against a good Tau list. Rather, a fast Tyranid army will have a fighting chance against these types of lists instead of just being slaughtered.

With regards to the dimas, I recommend you test out both builds against the likes of a good tournament Tau/Eldar army to see for yourself how each will play out.

I would recommend likewise. My thinking is that my list wins a pile more maelstrom missions, while your list wins more eternal war missions. Meanwhile, an actually good list that doesn't include the Dima wins far more Missions than either of us. He is a situationally useful unit that doesn't really have a place in a top tier tyranid TAC list, but might have a place in a themed Nidzilla list.

I'll be playtesting him to verify my initial reaction in the coming weeks, and I'll definitely leave my thoughts once I've done so.

Cool. I am sure the Hive Mind would love to hear your experiences on this subject matter.

I actually tried a hybrid dima list against a tournament Tau list. This was against the guy who won Best Tau player and was Top 5 at the BAO. I ran 3 flyrants (self-ally, which is legal at the BAO), Malan-in-a-box, some rippers, 2 dimas, 2 dakkafexes and 1 mawloc. It didn't go too well for my ground units, though my flyrants were doing ok until the very end.

I actually have a battle report for this, which I will eventually get to posting, perhaps when I am done with my BAO battle reports.

tag8833 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Spoiler:

tag8833 wrote:

I agree 100%. I wrote a little paragraph detailing the matchup problems, and then deleted it. Slow MC's get dominated by such lists. The Dima is a slow MC.

On the other hand, your 4 Flyrant list doesn't exactly dominate Tau either. 3 Burst Tides + 3 Missile Sides + Buffmander + 2 Skyrays + Marker lights is taking down 1-2 Flyrants and a Dima every turn. Everything Tyranids have, Tau have an answer to. You fare marginally better against Mechdar because at least you can hit back a bit more.

On the topic of Target prioritization. Your 4 Flyrant list would be better with Crones instead of Dima's because 1) the Dima's aren't properly supported. 2) the Crones match the flyrants in speed, and give the opponent a more challenging target prioritization. My Nidzilla list is packed with redundancy making target prioritization a problem. We've got 3 terrifying assault units (2 Dimas, Swarmlord), 3 high firepower shooty units (Dakkafexes), and 4 Durable Syanpse units (Swarmlord, Tervigon, 2 Malenthrope). What are you going to shoot first?

Are 4 Flyrants better than Nidzilla? Definitely. But do 4 Flyrants work well with 2 Dimas? I don't really think so. It seems to me, Dimas have Nidzilla written all over them, and aren't as good as Dakkafexes in other Tyranid lists, because of the extra one to two turns before they can contribute. Dakkafexes are plenty deadly in assault. The Dima has the problem of not being able to stick in assault. Most assaults are going to end on the first turn meaning it can never avoid the opponent's shooting phase.

I've never made any claim that a flying Tyranid list will dominate the likes of Tau. No matter what you run, tyranids will always have a tough time against a good Tau army. Tau just naturally counters Tyranids (as well as a lot of armies) much in the same way that DE venom-spam used to counter nidzilla back in 5th. To play against Tau (and other super-shooty armies), you need mobility. That is why a mobile Tyranid army (such as one with lots of flyrants and other fast units) will always stand a better chance than a ground-&-pound bug list. But tyranids, even one with quad-flyrants, is far from dominating against a good Tau list. Rather, a fast Tyranid army will have a fighting chance against these types of lists instead of just being slaughtered.

With regards to the dimas, I recommend you test out both builds against the likes of a good tournament Tau/Eldar army to see for yourself how each will play out.

I would recommend likewise. My thinking is that my list wins a pile more maelstrom missions, while your list wins more eternal war missions. Meanwhile, an actually good list that doesn't include the Dima wins far more Missions than either of us. He is a situationally useful unit that doesn't really have a place in a top tier tyranid TAC list, but might have a place in a themed Nidzilla list.

Agreed with what you say here tag, and actually very much disagree with what Jy2 says about tau. Tyranids won't ALWAYS have a problem with Tau - Living Artillery ground lists gets an autowin vs Tau every 1 in 3 games (or whatever the chance is). There is absolutely no way a list with quad Flyrants is winning more than that vs Tau, especially with the Flyrants rarely lasting longer than Carnifexes who are nearly half the price, with the wasted points of 2 Dimas threatening nothing till turn 3 or 4, and the Bastion combo doing ABSOLUTELY nothing except waste more points. I think testing your list out vs a good Tau list is one thing, you obviously need a better Tau player behind because something is giving you skewed results here. It's a little counter intuitive I think, as beating Tau isn't about paying more points for mobility, it's about about using those extra points for more of the points effecient models IMO, as Tau is very well equipped to deal with a list that only sends like 4 threats across for the first 2 turns of the game (possibly more).

I still think max of 3 Flyrants is even pushing it.

This overrating of the Malathrope, sheesh... A Zoey + a Venom achieves the same major effects, with more combined durability. Malanthrope has it positives on these 2 (and it's negatives) I'm well aware, but the differences are far from game breaking or broken. I actually think the Venom is better and Malanthrope has shiny paint syndrome (similar to the Dima)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Oops... didn't notice the second page...

Everything we said still stands anyway there was nothing really contradicting it on the second page. I kinda gotta stick with that list/outline as the best way to go for Dimas really and say while an extra Flyrant may have it's merits, it comes at the cost of 2 Mawlocs, so nothing is set in stone for sure

 SHUPPET wrote:
Tyranids won't ALWAYS have a problem with Tau - Living Artillery ground lists gets an autowin vs Tau every 1 in 3 games (or whatever the chance is).

Could you explain this in more detail? Are you referring to getting the Master of Ambush warlord trait, and getting to infiltrate 3 units... but why is this specific to Living Artillery lists? Or do you just mean any list with some big MCs to infiltrate? And wouldn't the chance be 1 in 6?

If you're referring to something else, I'd love to hear it, or maybe just an explanation of the above is this is on the right track. I also think you misunderstood jy2's post about facing the Tau player (he didn't say that he won, simply that his ground forces struggled while his flying portion survived longer). I'd like to not get too sidetracked into specifics and still talk about overall tactics here.

In that vein, Jifel's idea of taking barricades has me really intrigued now. I actually ordered some micro art studio alien terrain to use for that today! I know not everywhere allows the upgrades to buildings, but 2 barricades seems worth at least as much to me as the Comms Relay (also 20 points), although for different uses obviously.

 RiTides wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Tyranids won't ALWAYS have a problem with Tau - Living Artillery ground lists gets an autowin vs Tau every 1 in 3 games (or whatever the chance is).

Could you explain this in more detail? Are you referring to getting the Master of Ambush warlord trait, and getting to infiltrate 3 units... but why is this specific to Living Artillery lists? Or do you just mean any list with some big MCs to infiltrate? And wouldn't the chance be 1 in 6?

If you're referring to something else, I'd love to hear it, or maybe just an explanation of the above is this is on the right track. I also think you misunderstood jy2's post about facing the Tau player (he didn't say that he won, simply that his ground forces struggled while his flying portion survived longer). I'd like to not get too sidetracked into specifics and still talk about overall tactics here.

In that vein, Jifel's idea of taking barricades has me really intrigued now. I actually ordered some micro art studio alien terrain to use for that today! I know not everywhere allows the upgrades to buildings, but 2 barricades seems worth at least as much to me as the Comms Relay (also 20 points), although for different uses obviously.

Battleforged gets to re-roll Warlord, so 2 in 6...or 1 in 3.

 SHUPPET wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Spoiler:

tag8833 wrote:

I agree 100%. I wrote a little paragraph detailing the matchup problems, and then deleted it. Slow MC's get dominated by such lists. The Dima is a slow MC.

On the other hand, your 4 Flyrant list doesn't exactly dominate Tau either. 3 Burst Tides + 3 Missile Sides + Buffmander + 2 Skyrays + Marker lights is taking down 1-2 Flyrants and a Dima every turn. Everything Tyranids have, Tau have an answer to. You fare marginally better against Mechdar because at least you can hit back a bit more.

On the topic of Target prioritization. Your 4 Flyrant list would be better with Crones instead of Dima's because 1) the Dima's aren't properly supported. 2) the Crones match the flyrants in speed, and give the opponent a more challenging target prioritization. My Nidzilla list is packed with redundancy making target prioritization a problem. We've got 3 terrifying assault units (2 Dimas, Swarmlord), 3 high firepower shooty units (Dakkafexes), and 4 Durable Syanpse units (Swarmlord, Tervigon, 2 Malenthrope). What are you going to shoot first?

Are 4 Flyrants better than Nidzilla? Definitely. But do 4 Flyrants work well with 2 Dimas? I don't really think so. It seems to me, Dimas have Nidzilla written all over them, and aren't as good as Dakkafexes in other Tyranid lists, because of the extra one to two turns before they can contribute. Dakkafexes are plenty deadly in assault. The Dima has the problem of not being able to stick in assault. Most assaults are going to end on the first turn meaning it can never avoid the opponent's shooting phase.

I've never made any claim that a flying Tyranid list will dominate the likes of Tau. No matter what you run, tyranids will always have a tough time against a good Tau army. Tau just naturally counters Tyranids (as well as a lot of armies) much in the same way that DE venom-spam used to counter nidzilla back in 5th. To play against Tau (and other super-shooty armies), you need mobility. That is why a mobile Tyranid army (such as one with lots of flyrants and other fast units) will always stand a better chance than a ground-&-pound bug list. But tyranids, even one with quad-flyrants, is far from dominating against a good Tau list. Rather, a fast Tyranid army will have a fighting chance against these types of lists instead of just being slaughtered.

With regards to the dimas, I recommend you test out both builds against the likes of a good tournament Tau/Eldar army to see for yourself how each will play out.

I would recommend likewise. My thinking is that my list wins a pile more maelstrom missions, while your list wins more eternal war missions. Meanwhile, an actually good list that doesn't include the Dima wins far more Missions than either of us. He is a situationally useful unit that doesn't really have a place in a top tier tyranid TAC list, but might have a place in a themed Nidzilla list.

Agreed with what you say here tag, and actually very much disagree with what Jy2 says about tau. Tyranids won't ALWAYS have a problem with Tau - Living Artillery ground lists gets an autowin vs Tau every 1 in 3 games (or whatever the chance is).

Living artillery is far from an autowin vs tau. It is a better matchup than some, but you are still going to lose more games than you win against good Tau lists. I used living artillery a dozen or so times against tau in 6th, and never won a single one of the games. The 7th edition nerf to Ovesa + the buffs to blast weapons means that Living Artillery is a little better against Tau, but still far, far, far from an autowin. Tau is capable of downing MC's without batting an eye. That Exocrine could easily die to first blood. The Biovores are underwhelming against Tau Elite units, and warriors don't dish out much damage. Venomthropes don't work if Tau have marker lights, and the first unit with SMS can kill the Venom anyways. Tau can deal with anything Tyranids have. Against the BAO tau list, with 3 Ion Tides and no skyrays, Flyrants are probably a good bet, but against Bursttides with skyfire or skyrays, Tyranid Flyers die just as easily as walking MC's.

The best counter to Tau is the Maelstrom missions. They prevent Tau from lining up on the board edge and making you come to them. Immobile Tau gunline is exactly the reason the Maelstrom missions are great. It is an unfun game to play EW against Tau either marching toward them or cowering behind terrain waiting for Turn 5.

 jifel wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
Malanthrope does great in CC for the record, wounding everything on 2+ is great.

If it gets there it isn't bad, but I wouldn't send it in there alone, and it's slow enough that I wouldn't count on it. It is quite nice when it works, but usually I'd only send it in against a soft target like a guard squad, and those tend to be long dead by the time I get there...

Get where? It's a support unit, it doesn't need to run across the board it just needs to be available to counter assault. The things are stupidly good, in fact if the rest of the tyranid book didn't suck so bad these things very much would break the game.

@RiTides Yep Master of Ambush (meant to put it in that sentence but missed it lol), I'll explain further


@tag oh, no I definitely agree that it's not an autowin, in fact most games you will struggle just as much as any other Tyranid list vs Tau, but then you are no worse off with Living Artillery than you would be with anything else, and better off than some others, so so be it.
No, the real auto-win is when you roll Master of Ambush. A good ground list can push forward any number of things into shooting range turn 1, or at the very least outflank turn 2, ensuring all your threats get to shoot before being shot. But there is no comparison to infiltrating 3 units of choice and getting the first turn - I've done this a few times vs Tau and it's been nothing short of an absolute slaughter, my way. It had me opening with a twin linked pinning Exocrine blast, 3 TL Biovore blasts, FOUR Twin-Linked 12 shot S6 Dakkafex volleys, and 2 more from the regular Flyrant, and even a TL AP pinning blast from the Warriors. That right there is nearly 1500 points of close range Dakka unloading their firepower turn one, and finishing within assault range, could be even more I choose to keep a Mawloc in reserve for my build. You completely steal the range advantage and a lot of alpa from Tau if you are lucky enough to roll MoA and go first, that's about the hardest possible thing a Tau could face in the game after being thinned down to hell, but it's still great if you go second although fair enough not what you could call "autowin" anymore with some lucky reserve rolls the scales are still tipped your way, or at worst you infiltrate and should still get to shoot your Dakkafexes turn 1, even if you do have to cop a round of shooting from them first, that was going to happen either way, and if you go second you may be lucky enough to get a first turn assault.

So yeah, I was rushing that post this morning and as a result it hurt my clarity, Living Artillery itself doesn't hard-counter Tau, just the style of build and the chance to roll MoA with it. I actually got a first turn concede off a particularly whiny Riptide spamming Tau player in my local, which I am very proud of guy is the sort of guy who laughs obnoxiously loud and calls out big kills across the room, and how emotional he got when the tables were turned by Tyranid (whom he constantly talks about as one the "trash" races) was definitely my strategy game highlight of the year so far, in an admittedly childish but satisfying manner. =)

 SHUPPET wrote:
@tag oh, no I definitely agree that it's not an autowin, in fact most games you will struggle just as much as any other Tyranid list vs Tau, but then you are no worse off with Living Artillery than you would be with anything else, and better off than some others, so so be it.
No, the real auto-win is when you roll Master of Ambush. A good ground list can push forward any number of things into shooting range turn 1, or at the very least outflank turn 2, ensuring all your threats get to shoot before being shot. But there is no comparison to infiltrating 3 units of choice and getting the first turn

You need Master of Ambush and 1st turn to pull this off. Outflank doesn't generally do you much good because Tau can take Interceptor for like 5 Points, and blow you off the board before you get a chance to shoot. I once lost a Tyranid Prime, 30 mixed gaunts (lost 8, without the Prime they failed their leadership and ran off the board), and a Crone to interceptor.

We should probably take this discussion back to the Tyranid Tactica thread.

I think it's all pretty relevant to taking the new forgeworld units, in an indirect manner. Interceptor isn't stopping 4 Carnifexes, an exocrine and a Mawloc tho, and that's what my turn 2 looks like with outflank. Still, I think the xhoice between infiltrate and outflank is largely dependant on whether or not they did take the interceptor for sure. Opening up with a turn 1 Carnifex shooting and possible charge and weathering the shooting the turn before is better than opening up with neither of that, and weathering the same shooting! At this point I admit it's not autowin but it's still very strong and game changing v Tau.

So for those of you still not upset at the Dimachaeron not being classified as a Gargantuan creature and thus moving so slowly, take a gander at this pic from Forgeworld:



To the left, Gargantuan Creature moves 12", to the right Monstrous Creature only moves 6"

Are you kidding?!?!

To be fair, the Hierodule is an older sculpt from a time where the largest MC in the game was a toss-up between the Hive Tyrant and Carnifex. All of the newer oval-base monsters make it look puny.

 Strat_N8 wrote:
To be fair, the Hierodule is an older sculpt from a time where the largest MC in the game was a toss-up between the Hive Tyrant and Carnifex. All of the newer oval-base monsters make it look puny.

I miss those days, I got out of the game right after 5th edition dropped and my Carnifexes were large and intimidating. Got back into the game in December and all of the sudden my Carnifexes are downright puny, compared to a TAU model no less!

But I digress, I do hope that Hierodules get a model update to the current aesthetic (though hopefully with a different sculptor than the Dimathingy), but as it sits now I want to write an email to Forgeworld about sizes and movements and frustration. Even if the Dimachaeron moved as a beast it'd be a FANTASTIC unit! I'd give up half the rules it has in order to get that...

Yeah, I got a Hierodule in yesterday, and it's about the same size as a Tyrannofex/Tervigon; it's just a little bulkier. I was a little disappointed tbh.