Has anyone seen a video of what the main gun of an M-1 tank can do to another tank?
With Eternal Warrior being handed around like Halloween candy, it seems ridiculous that in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium, everyone and their brother can survive a direct hit to the chest with a 120mm tank round... to say nothing of, say, a rail gun slug or direct orbital bombardment from a Space Marine strike cruiser.
Where's the Grimdarkness of every special snowflake taking the same amount of damage from a tank round as big as his head as from a bolter round to the foot?
EmpNortonII wrote: Has anyone seen a video of what the main gun of an M-1 tank can do to another tank?
With Eternal Warrior being handed around like Halloween candy, it seems ridiculous that in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium, everyone and their brother can survive a direct hit to the chest with a 120mm tank round... to say nothing of, say, a rail gun slug or direct orbital bombardment from a Space Marine strike cruiser.
Where's the Grimdarkness of every special snowflake taking the same amount of damage from a tank round as big as his head as from a bolter round to the foot?
Wait where are all these EW you speak of? Most factions get only 1 EW character with exceptions such as Eldar, SW (but that might change), and SM whom can get multiple.
Just like saving throws EW isn't suppose to represent always just tanking wounds, it's a mechanic to represent a guy or gal lucky enough to always scrape by maybe because they are tough maybe they're quick maybe a rock happens to deflect that snipers bullet at the last second, EW is plot armor on the tabletop
EmpNortonII wrote: Has anyone seen a video of what the main gun of an M-1 tank can do to another tank?
With Eternal Warrior being handed around like Halloween candy, it seems ridiculous that in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium, everyone and their brother can survive a direct hit to the chest with a 120mm tank round... to say nothing of, say, a rail gun slug or direct orbital bombardment from a Space Marine strike cruiser.
Where's the Grimdarkness of every special snowflake taking the same amount of damage from a tank round as big as his head as from a bolter round to the foot?
Wait where are all these EW you speak of? Most factions get only 1 EW character with exceptions such as Eldar, SW (but that might change), and SM whom can get multiple.
To be fair there is not that much Eternal Warrior and many of those that make sense have it - it can represent the ability to be recreated - Eldar and Tyranids, protected by the Will of the Emperoro/Faith - Imperial factions - plus forceshields and such can be virtually impenetrable.
Which specific instances of Eternal Warrior do you have an issue with?
EmpNortonII wrote: Has anyone seen a video of what the main gun of an M-1 tank can do to another tank?
With Eternal Warrior being handed around like Halloween candy, it seems ridiculous that in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium, everyone and their brother can survive a direct hit to the chest with a 120mm tank round... to say nothing of, say, a rail gun slug or direct orbital bombardment from a Space Marine strike cruiser.
Where's the Grimdarkness of every special snowflake taking the same amount of damage from a tank round as big as his head as from a bolter round to the foot?
Wait where are all these EW you speak of? Most factions get only 1 EW character with exceptions such as Eldar, SW (but that might change), and SM whom can get multiple.
To be fair there is not that much Eternal Warrior and many of those that make sense have it - it can represent the ability to be recreated - Eldar and Tyranids, protected by the Will of the Emperoro/Faith - Imperial factions - plus forceshields and such can be virtually impenetrable.
Which specific instances of Eternal Warrior do you have an issue with?
Can we start with Calgar? The Chapter Master of the Ultramarines, space marine or not, shouldn't survive a direct hit from the guns of a strike cruiser.
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hotsauceman1 wrote: Not to mention, in the fluff it is shown as them being sow determined the are not going to let this hurt them.
I'm pretty sure that the guns of a strike cruiser, used in orbital bombardment, don't leave injuries that can be pushed through. Being turned to red paste is being turned to red paste.
He might not - depsite the best armour the Imperium can make and a force field he might succumb as this woud be a D weapon ? (I dont have 7th Ed and so not sure if they still wremove people from play?
Going back to the tank analogy - he is bascially a walking super tank anyway - so surviving strikes by AT weapons is possible - plenty of this in history -
Mr Morden wrote: He might not - depsite the best armour the Imperium can make and a force field he might succumb as this woud be a D weapon ? (I dont have 7th Ed and so not sure if they still wremove people from play?
Going back to the tank analogy - he is bascially a walking super tank anyway - so surviving strikes by AT weapons is possible - plenty of this in history -
It hits as hard as a Tau railgun or one of those Necron arrows. I think there's something about not posting rules on the site.
... at any rate, I've not bumped into any Necron fluff where one of those arrows were used, but I have bumped into Tau fluff stating that a railgun hits an Imperial tank hard enough that the vacuum from the slug passing through will suck the crewmen out of the hole that is much smaller than a full-grown person. Presumably, the same sort of thing would happen to terminator armor. Calgar'd just be a trail of jelly after being hit. Like I said, you can survive shrapnel or a burn or losing a limb. You don't survive being turned into red paste.
Mr Morden wrote: He might not - depsite the best armour the Imperium can make and a force field he might succumb as this woud be a D weapon ? (I dont have 7th Ed and so not sure if they still wremove people from play?
Going back to the tank analogy - he is bascially a walking super tank anyway - so surviving strikes by AT weapons is possible - plenty of this in history -
It hits as hard as a Tau railgun or one of those Necron arrows. I think there's something about not posting rules on the site.
... at any rate, I've not bumped into any Necron fluff where one of those arrows were used, but I have bumped into Tau fluff stating that a railgun hits an Imperial tank hard enough that the vacuum from the slug passing through will suck the crewmen out of the hole that is much smaller than a full-grown person. Presumably, the same sort of thing would happen to terminator armor. Calgar'd just be a trail of jelly after being hit. Like I said, you can survive shrapnel or a burn or losing a limb. You don't survive being turned into red paste.
He has a Iron Halo - "an energy field that wards against even the most potent enemy weapons
Force shields mean such weapons can just bounce off - like in any other SF universe ?
EmpNortonII wrote: [
... at any rate, I've not bumped into any Necron fluff where one of those arrows were used, but I have bumped into Tau fluff stating that a railgun hits an Imperial tank hard enough that the vacuum from the slug passing through will suck the crewmen out of the hole that is much smaller than a full-grown person. Presumably, the same sort of thing would happen to terminator armor. Calgar'd just be a trail of jelly after being hit. Like I said, you can survive shrapnel or a burn or losing a limb. You don't survive being turned into red paste.
Perhaps the force of the shot was dissipated by the armour or forcefield as it didn't hit plumb on. Maybe it simply grazed. Very possibly one of the many bionic parts of Calgar and which left his biological body remained.
It's not supposed to be taken as Calgar simply surviving a direct orbital strike. Much like how losing wounds doesn't hinder combat performance and how all non-Psychic Space Marines should probably have the same number of wounds rather than a Captain essentially having more lives.
Mr Morden wrote: He might not - depsite the best armour the Imperium can make and a force field he might succumb as this woud be a D weapon ? (I dont have 7th Ed and so not sure if they still wremove people from play?
Going back to the tank analogy - he is bascially a walking super tank anyway - so surviving strikes by AT weapons is possible - plenty of this in history -
It hits as hard as a Tau railgun or one of those Necron arrows. I think there's something about not posting rules on the site.
... at any rate, I've not bumped into any Necron fluff where one of those arrows were used, but I have bumped into Tau fluff stating that a railgun hits an Imperial tank hard enough that the vacuum from the slug passing through will suck the crewmen out of the hole that is much smaller than a full-grown person. Presumably, the same sort of thing would happen to terminator armor. Calgar'd just be a trail of jelly after being hit. Like I said, you can survive shrapnel or a burn or losing a limb. You don't survive being turned into red paste.
He has a Iron Halo - "an energy field that wards against even the most potent enemy weapons
Force shields mean such weapons can just bounce off - like in any other SF universe ?
... and a generic terminator can take an Iron Halo, but doesn't get the same rule. Why?
Mr Morden wrote: He might not - depsite the best armour the Imperium can make and a force field he might succumb as this woud be a D weapon ? (I dont have 7th Ed and so not sure if they still wremove people from play?
Going back to the tank analogy - he is bascially a walking super tank anyway - so surviving strikes by AT weapons is possible - plenty of this in history -
It hits as hard as a Tau railgun or one of those Necron arrows. I think there's something about not posting rules on the site.
... at any rate, I've not bumped into any Necron fluff where one of those arrows were used, but I have bumped into Tau fluff stating that a railgun hits an Imperial tank hard enough that the vacuum from the slug passing through will suck the crewmen out of the hole that is much smaller than a full-grown person. Presumably, the same sort of thing would happen to terminator armor. Calgar'd just be a trail of jelly after being hit. Like I said, you can survive shrapnel or a burn or losing a limb. You don't survive being turned into red paste.
He has a Iron Halo - "an energy field that wards against even the most potent enemy weapons
Force shields mean such weapons can just bounce off - like in any other SF universe ?
... and a generic terminator can take an Iron Halo, but doesn't get the same rule. Why?
No, they can't. Recheck your codex.
In Calgar's case, much like that of Abaddon or Ghazghkull, it can arguably be explained that 'the hand of fate is upon them.'
Mr Morden wrote: He might not - depsite the best armour the Imperium can make and a force field he might succumb as this woud be a D weapon ? (I dont have 7th Ed and so not sure if they still wremove people from play?
Going back to the tank analogy - he is bascially a walking super tank anyway - so surviving strikes by AT weapons is possible - plenty of this in history -
It hits as hard as a Tau railgun or one of those Necron arrows. I think there's something about not posting rules on the site.
... at any rate, I've not bumped into any Necron fluff where one of those arrows were used, but I have bumped into Tau fluff stating that a railgun hits an Imperial tank hard enough that the vacuum from the slug passing through will suck the crewmen out of the hole that is much smaller than a full-grown person. Presumably, the same sort of thing would happen to terminator armor. Calgar'd just be a trail of jelly after being hit. Like I said, you can survive shrapnel or a burn or losing a limb. You don't survive being turned into red paste.
He has a Iron Halo - "an energy field that wards against even the most potent enemy weapons
Force shields mean such weapons can just bounce off - like in any other SF universe ?
... and a generic terminator can take an Iron Halo, but doesn't get the same rule. Why?
No, they can't. Recheck your codex.
In Calgar's case, much like that of Abaddon or Ghazghkull, it can arguably be explained that 'the hand of fate is upon them.'
Right- I'm thinking Storm Shield... which gives a better save. I could, however, say that any "generic" Chapter Master comes with an Iron halo and does not get the same rule. Why?
Depends on at what point you could imagine how they "survived".
To hit: solid hit vs. grazing but still a hit.
Wound: Chest-head shot vs. arm / leg / backpack hit vs. regenerative / reinforced bodies / medical dispensing.
Armor: Blast Protection: Hardened/inflexible/interior padding / full body covering vs. Small Arms: flexible / targeted plates.
Cover / Invulnerable saves: You can't see me!, shot pre-detonates hitting a branch, energy field deflects it just enough, it is magic!!!
"Forge your own narrative" of how a standard guard manages to survive a main cannon shot: just barely far enough away for the armor to absorb the blast and ragdoll far enough away to avoid the heat and only broke an arm landing! Good to go! (Plus the Commissar was watching...).
If you want more realism in your shooting results go look up some Rolemaster (ICE product) charts or use the concept of "Megadamage" from Palladium (you will regret it however...).
Mr Morden wrote: He might not - depsite the best armour the Imperium can make and a force field he might succumb as this woud be a D weapon ? (I dont have 7th Ed and so not sure if they still wremove people from play?
Going back to the tank analogy - he is bascially a walking super tank anyway - so surviving strikes by AT weapons is possible - plenty of this in history -
It hits as hard as a Tau railgun or one of those Necron arrows. I think there's something about not posting rules on the site.
... at any rate, I've not bumped into any Necron fluff where one of those arrows were used, but I have bumped into Tau fluff stating that a railgun hits an Imperial tank hard enough that the vacuum from the slug passing through will suck the crewmen out of the hole that is much smaller than a full-grown person. Presumably, the same sort of thing would happen to terminator armor. Calgar'd just be a trail of jelly after being hit. Like I said, you can survive shrapnel or a burn or losing a limb. You don't survive being turned into red paste.
He has a Iron Halo - "an energy field that wards against even the most potent enemy weapons
Force shields mean such weapons can just bounce off - like in any other SF universe ?
... and a generic terminator can take an Iron Halo, but doesn't get the same rule. Why?
No, they can't. Recheck your codex.
In Calgar's case, much like that of Abaddon or Ghazghkull, it can arguably be explained that 'the hand of fate is upon them.'
Right- I'm thinking Storm Shield... which gives a better save. I could, however, say that any "generic" Chapter Master comes with an Iron halo and does not get the same rule. Why?
EmpNortonII wrote: Has anyone seen a video of what the main gun of an M-1 tank can do to another tank?
With Eternal Warrior being handed around like Halloween candy, it seems ridiculous that in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium, everyone and their brother can survive a direct hit to the chest with a 120mm tank round... to say nothing of, say, a rail gun slug or direct orbital bombardment from a Space Marine strike cruiser.
Where's the Grimdarkness of every special snowflake taking the same amount of damage from a tank round as big as his head as from a bolter round to the foot?
Wait where are all these EW you speak of? Most factions get only 1 EW character with exceptions such as Eldar, SW (but that might change), and SM whom can get multiple.
To be fair there is not that much Eternal Warrior and many of those that make sense have it - it can represent the ability to be recreated - Eldar and Tyranids, protected by the Will of the Emperoro/Faith - Imperial factions - plus forceshields and such can be virtually impenetrable.
Which specific instances of Eternal Warrior do you have an issue with?
Miscommunication, I was more perplexed at the part of claiming every special snowflake can tank it is wrong. For the most part, characters will die to anti-vehicle weapons as is normal. Even the veterans of the long war (CSM) only have 1 character with EW, one upgrade in a supplement hardly anybody plays that is very pricey being the only other option. As per EW, my only gripe is the cheap and deadly shield SM can get and the named herald of khorne (why would you give a 2W forced into challenges EW?)
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Random Dude wrote: Don't D weapons have the chance of killing models outright even if they have eternal warrior (I skipped the super heavies section in the rule book)?
Not anymore I don't think. D got nerfed pretty hard. It can kill by making them roll a ton of wounds that statistically should almost always kill them though or something
EmpNortonII wrote: Has anyone seen a video of what the main gun of an M-1 tank can do to another tank?
With Eternal Warrior being handed around like Halloween candy, it seems ridiculous that in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium, everyone and their brother can survive a direct hit to the chest with a 120mm tank round... to say nothing of, say, a rail gun slug or direct orbital bombardment from a Space Marine strike cruiser.
Where's the Grimdarkness of every special snowflake taking the same amount of damage from a tank round as big as his head as from a bolter round to the foot?
Wait where are all these EW you speak of? Most factions get only 1 EW character with exceptions such as Eldar, SW (but that might change), and SM whom can get multiple.
To be fair there is not that much Eternal Warrior and many of those that make sense have it - it can represent the ability to be recreated - Eldar and Tyranids, protected by the Will of the Emperoro/Faith - Imperial factions - plus forceshields and such can be virtually impenetrable.
Which specific instances of Eternal Warrior do you have an issue with?
Can we start with Calgar? The Chapter Master of the Ultramarines, space marine or not, shouldn't survive a direct hit from the guns of a strike cruiser.
But it is CALGAR! The BEST and most HONORABLE and BIGGEST of all the SPESS MUHREENS. He would never fall to such things, as he is an ULTRAMARINE!!
Random Dude wrote: I don't really understand the premise of this thread. Even with EW, most characters will die if they are hit by D weapons.
The point isn't just D weapons, its about when someone survived things that really should utterly destroy them.
If a Guardsman gets hit by a lascannon, he's gone. No amount of faith in the spess emprah is going to fix being mostly evaporated by a man-portable laser-based WMD.
Random Dude wrote: I don't really understand the premise of this thread. Even with EW, most characters will die if they are hit by D weapons.
The point isn't just D weapons, its about when someone survived things that really should utterly destroy them.
If a Guardsman gets hit by a lascannon, he's gone. No amount of faith in the spess emprah is going to fix being mostly evaporated by a man-portable laser-based WMD.
Don't worry, the Lascannon player rolled an 1 to wound. The Guardsman can walk it off.
Random Dude wrote: I don't really understand the premise of this thread. Even with EW, most characters will die if they are hit by D weapons.
The point isn't just D weapons, its about when someone survived things that really should utterly destroy them.
If a Guardsman gets hit by a lascannon, he's gone. No amount of faith in the spess emprah is going to fix being mostly evaporated by a man-portable laser-based WMD.
But in this setting faith can cause literal miracles.
The EW rule is an in game abstraction, not a fluff benchmark.
Random Dude wrote: I don't really understand the premise of this thread. Even with EW, most characters will die if they are hit by D weapons.
The point isn't just D weapons, its about when someone survived things that really should utterly destroy them.
If a Guardsman gets hit by a lascannon, he's gone. No amount of faith in the spess emprah is going to fix being mostly evaporated by a man-portable laser-based WMD.
But in this setting faith can cause literal miracles.
The EW rule is an in game abstraction, not a fluff benchmark.
Guardsmen don't typically have EW. The point was that it makes little sense for certain things to survive shots that would splatter them to death etc. Nukes never roll a 1 to wound, because whatever they hit will be destroyed. Why does the same not happen for certain things in the 40kTT?
EmpNortonII wrote: Has anyone seen a video of what the main gun of an M-1 tank can do to another tank?
With Eternal Warrior being handed around like Halloween candy, it seems ridiculous that in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium, everyone and their brother can survive a direct hit to the chest with a 120mm tank round... to say nothing of, say, a rail gun slug or direct orbital bombardment from a Space Marine strike cruiser.
Where's the Grimdarkness of every special snowflake taking the same amount of damage from a tank round as big as his head as from a bolter round to the foot?
Wait where are all these EW you speak of? Most factions get only 1 EW character with exceptions such as Eldar, SW (but that might change), and SM whom can get multiple.
To be fair there is not that much Eternal Warrior and many of those that make sense have it - it can represent the ability to be recreated - Eldar and Tyranids, protected by the Will of the Emperoro/Faith - Imperial factions - plus forceshields and such can be virtually impenetrable.
Which specific instances of Eternal Warrior do you have an issue with?
Can we start with Calgar? The Chapter Master of the Ultramarines, space marine or not, shouldn't survive a direct hit from the guns of a strike cruiser.
But it is CALGAR! The BEST and most HONORABLE and BIGGEST of all the SPESS MUHREENS. He would never fall to such things, as he is an ULTRAMARINE!!
Lysander has it too, so you can't claim this is some Matt Ward driven ultramarines favortism.
GW useally tends to give the one super expensive HQ unit in each codex EW. Codex Space Marines snagged two as you cou;dn't take calgar with lysander as part of the same detachment
No amount of faith in the spess emprah is going to fix being mostly evaporated by a man-portable laser-based WMD
Then you dont have enough Faith
Adepta Sororitas Codex - every single one of them has a 6+ Invuln (or better) including the vehicles. They can (and have in my games) taken a lascannon, that nasty AP2 Eldar flamer and other powerful weapons full on and walked away beacuse "The Emperor Protects".
In this case its not shields or fancy gear - their God protects them................
EmpNortonII wrote: Has anyone seen a video of what the main gun of an M-1 tank can do to another tank?
With Eternal Warrior being handed around like Halloween candy, it seems ridiculous that in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium, everyone and their brother can survive a direct hit to the chest with a 120mm tank round... to say nothing of, say, a rail gun slug or direct orbital bombardment from a Space Marine strike cruiser.
Where's the Grimdarkness of every special snowflake taking the same amount of damage from a tank round as big as his head as from a bolter round to the foot?
Who said it was a direct hit? Who said the 120mm round went through his chest.
Also remember removed from the table does not = dead. Many a soldier is shot, hit by shrapnel, or knocked out, goes down. Takes no further part in the battle, yet is very much alive. That is the essential problem. We think that every one of our toy soldiers we remove from the table is dead. We describe them as dead and killed, yet anyone who has actually seen combat knows that a lot of those who fall on the battlefield later rise to stand again.
EW represents a supernatural ability to never be knocked out of the fight until they are dead, completely, gone. Wounds that would be serious enough to cause most people to just pass out or give up on the fight and wait for a medic do not phase these people.
Now a 120mm round hitting someone, even just in the arm, would probably put them down. It might(probably would) blow the arm clean off or at least make it useless. In that case, 99% of soldiers are just gonna go down. If they arent knocked out, shock will incapacitate them. But you never heard of a soldier continuing the fight for a while with only one arm?
Yeah I don't think you should relate game rules to fluff. Someone made a thread a while back about how strength is stupid because a bloodthrister is like only 4 times stronger than a Gretchen but it should be like 1000 times stronger
You gotta realize that a game needs balance so game mechanics take priority over fluff, otherwise the game would be unplayable.
changerofways wrote: Yeah I don't think you should relate game rules to fluff. Someone made a thread a while back about how strength is stupid because a bloodthrister is like only 4 times stronger than a Gretchen but it should be like 1000 times stronger
You gotta realize that a game needs balance so game mechanics take priority over fluff, otherwise the game would be unplayable.
Further evidence is that in WHFB a Blood Thirster would crush an Ogre into paste rather quickly (much like the fluff), but the same two models in Blood Bowl (set in the same universe) are quite well matched.
EDIT: The BT only appears in the PC version of Blood Bowl, so that abstraction is not from GW.
Mr Morden wrote: He might not - depsite the best armour the Imperium can make and a force field he might succumb as this woud be a D weapon ? (I dont have 7th Ed and so not sure if they still wremove people from play?
Going back to the tank analogy - he is bascially a walking super tank anyway - so surviving strikes by AT weapons is possible - plenty of this in history -
It hits as hard as a Tau railgun or one of those Necron arrows. I think there's something about not posting rules on the site.
... at any rate, I've not bumped into any Necron fluff where one of those arrows were used, but I have bumped into Tau fluff stating that a railgun hits an Imperial tank hard enough that the vacuum from the slug passing through will suck the crewmen out of the hole that is much smaller than a full-grown person. Presumably, the same sort of thing would happen to terminator armor. Calgar'd just be a trail of jelly after being hit. Like I said, you can survive shrapnel or a burn or losing a limb. You don't survive being turned into red paste.
He has a Iron Halo - "an energy field that wards against even the most potent enemy weapons
Force shields mean such weapons can just bounce off - like in any other SF universe ?
... and a generic terminator can take an Iron Halo, but doesn't get the same rule. Why?
Generic terminators only have 1 wound... why would Eternal Warrior help them if it only prevents ID?
If you want a reason why certain people have EW, look at their fluff:
Yarrick: The guy is basically too stubborn to die. This trait is not uncommon among truly amazing historical figures either, if you want proof.
Calgar: He leads the Ultramarines, there's your reason. Outside of that the guy has fought some of the most dangerous beings in the galaxy and beaten them, multiple times. Without EW he's just as much of a bitch as a random Chapter Master without the shield eternal.
Draigo: Do I really need to explain this guy?
Seriously, go and just read some fluff, there are hundreds of reasons why certain characters have EW. 40k is all about FORGING THE NARRATIVE, so FORGE A NARRATIVE.
Edit: It's criminal that Dante from my beloved Blood Angels doesn't have EW, but some shiny-armor-wearing-douchebag-angel-spirit does.
Frankenberry wrote: If you want a reason why certain people have EW, look at their fluff:
Yarrick: The guy is basically too stubborn to die. This trait is not uncommon among truly amazing historical figures either, if you want proof.
Calgar: He leads the Ultramarines, there's your reason. Outside of that the guy has fought some of the most dangerous beings in the galaxy and beaten them, multiple times. Without EW he's just as much of a bitch as a random Chapter Master without the shield eternal.
Draigo: Do I really need to explain this guy?
Seriously, go and just read some fluff, there are hundreds of reasons why certain characters have EW. 40k is all about FORGING THE NARRATIVE, so FORGE A NARRATIVE.
Edit: It's criminal that Dante from my beloved Blood Angels doesn't have EW, but some shiny-armor-wearing-douchebag-angel-spirit does.
To be more specific, Yarrick was mauled by an ork warboss and Calgar got stomped by a tyranid hive tyrant...twice.
Removed as a casualty means they cannot fight anymore. This could be anything from death to losing a foot to just being knocked unconscious. Simple as that.
Frankenberry wrote: If you want a reason why certain people have EW, look at their fluff:
Yarrick: The guy is basically too stubborn to die. This trait is not uncommon among truly amazing historical figures either, if you want proof.
Calgar: He leads the Ultramarines, there's your reason. Outside of that the guy has fought some of the most dangerous beings in the galaxy and beaten them, multiple times. Without EW he's just as much of a bitch as a random Chapter Master without the shield eternal.
Draigo: Do I really need to explain this guy?
Seriously, go and just read some fluff, there are hundreds of reasons why certain characters have EW. 40k is all about FORGING THE NARRATIVE, so FORGE A NARRATIVE.
Edit: It's criminal that Dante from my beloved Blood Angels doesn't have EW, but some shiny-armor-wearing-douchebag-angel-spirit does.
To be more specific, Yarrick was mauled by an ork warboss
A warboss who is described as hitting like a mag train.
troa wrote: Removed as a casualty means they cannot fight anymore. This could be anything from death to losing a foot to just being knocked unconscious. Simple as that.
Frankenberry wrote: If you want a reason why certain people have EW, look at their fluff:
Yarrick: The guy is basically too stubborn to die. This trait is not uncommon among truly amazing historical figures either, if you want proof.
Calgar: He leads the Ultramarines, there's your reason. Outside of that the guy has fought some of the most dangerous beings in the galaxy and beaten them, multiple times. Without EW he's just as much of a bitch as a random Chapter Master without the shield eternal.
Draigo: Do I really need to explain this guy?
Seriously, go and just read some fluff, there are hundreds of reasons why certain characters have EW. 40k is all about FORGING THE NARRATIVE, so FORGE A NARRATIVE.
Edit: It's criminal that Dante from my beloved Blood Angels doesn't have EW, but some shiny-armor-wearing-douchebag-angel-spirit does.
To be more specific, Yarrick was mauled by an ork warboss
A warboss who is described as hitting like a mag train.
troa wrote: Removed as a casualty means they cannot fight anymore. This could be anything from death to losing a foot to just being knocked unconscious. Simple as that.
Aye. And not everyone with Eternal Warrior tanks hits like a, well, tank... Ghazgkhull probably does but he's an ork protected by the ork gods. A hit might well blow a hole in him and he just doesn't care, or it bounces off his adamantium skull. Calgar is the kind of guy who sees a railgun and immediately gets into cover, any cover - he survives the hit by not being directly hit. The lost wound is from the blast of the projectile going past him, or maybe represents his autosenses being knocked out by the near miss. And so on.
Daba wrote: EW should not have been extended beyond the Phoenix Lords (where it is a case of no wound incapacitation due to the 'matter' they are made of).
Would also make sense for daemons. Oh, wait, they do not have it anymore!
EmpNortonII wrote: Has anyone seen a video of what the main gun of an M-1 tank can do to another tank?
With Eternal Warrior being handed around like Halloween candy, it seems ridiculous that in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium, everyone and their brother can survive a direct hit to the chest with a 120mm tank round... to say nothing of, say, a rail gun slug or direct orbital bombardment from a Space Marine strike cruiser.
Where's the Grimdarkness of every special snowflake taking the same amount of damage from a tank round as big as his head as from a bolter round to the foot?
Who said it was a direct hit? Who said the 120mm round went through his chest.
Also remember removed from the table does not = dead. Many a soldier is shot, hit by shrapnel, or knocked out, goes down. Takes no further part in the battle, yet is very much alive. That is the essential problem. We think that every one of our toy soldiers we remove from the table is dead. We describe them as dead and killed, yet anyone who has actually seen combat knows that a lot of those who fall on the battlefield later rise to stand again.
EW represents a supernatural ability to never be knocked out of the fight until they are dead, completely, gone. Wounds that would be serious enough to cause most people to just pass out or give up on the fight and wait for a medic do not phase these people.
Now a 120mm round hitting someone, even just in the arm, would probably put them down. It might(probably would) blow the arm clean off or at least make it useless. In that case, 99% of soldiers are just gonna go down. If they arent knocked out, shock will incapacitate them. But you never heard of a soldier continuing the fight for a while with only one arm?
It's a direct hit when you center the template on the special snowflake and roll a direct hit on the scatter dice... or when you roll a 6 with your Hammerhead (extra points if you took the armory item that allows it to snipe special characters)... I'm not sure the 'Cron arrow even has to roll.
Besides, the question of the thread isn't about being hit by shrapnel or pushing on despite a wound... it's why Calgar doesn't die when, if forging a narrative, when something that rips tanks apart like a hot knife through butter makes a direct hit.
Daba wrote: EW should not have been extended beyond the Phoenix Lords (where it is a case of no wound incapacitation due to the 'matter' they are made of).
Would also make sense for daemons. Oh, wait, they do not have it anymore!
Yes.
The problem is Force weapons still have their stupid junk rule from 3rd edition that persists and makes NO sense.
They can now even return since they have psyker mastery levels back. They can make it Strength + Mastery and if they want, ignore Daemon saves and store Warp Charges in them. They could also revert Witchblades to being better Force Swords like they should be.
Daba wrote: EW should not have been extended beyond the Phoenix Lords (where it is a case of no wound incapacitation due to the 'matter' they are made of).
Would also make sense for daemons. Oh, wait, they do not have it anymore!
Again- different thing. EW is about being able to take repeated abuse from weapons that take down Land Raiders, not about being able to rematerialize after being hit by said weapons (unless that rematerialization can happen on a battlefield in the middle of a fight).
EmpNortonII wrote: Again- different thing. EW is about being able to take repeated abuse from weapons that take down Land Raiders, not about being able to rematerialize after being hit by said weapons (unless that rematerialization can happen on a battlefield in the middle of a fight).
You are missing the point. Daemons are not material. Therefore, they are affected by material attacks in strange ways. Nothing material could survive a direct hit from certain big weapons, but since daemons are not material, maybe the most powerful could. It might only cause them to loose some of their grip on reality.
I mean, when normal physical weapon shoot at normal physical stuff, the rules of physics are supposed to apply. You could add a bit of applied phlebotinum, but it is still going to be physics. When normal physical weapons shoot at creature made of space magic energy, what happens is not ruled by the laws of physics, but by the laws of space magic vs physical stuff interactions. Those laws are completely made up, and were never even formalized too much, so it would make sense for them to allow strange stuff like daemons being able to tank über-weapons, and then dying to a grot using a slingshot.
EmpNortonII wrote: Again- different thing. EW is about being able to take repeated abuse from weapons that take down Land Raiders, not about being able to rematerialize after being hit by said weapons (unless that rematerialization can happen on a battlefield in the middle of a fight).
You are missing the point. Daemons are not material. Therefore, they are affected by material attacks in strange ways. Nothing material could survive a direct hit from certain big weapons, but since daemons are not material, maybe the most powerful could. It might only cause them to loose some of their grip on reality.
I mean, when normal physical weapon shoot at normal physical stuff, the rules of physics are supposed to apply. You could add a bit of applied phlebotinum, but it is still going to be physics. When normal physical weapons shoot at creature made of space magic energy, what happens is not ruled by the laws of physics, but by the laws of space magic vs physical stuff interactions. Those laws are completely made up, and were never even formalized too much, so it would make sense for them to allow strange stuff like daemons being able to tank über-weapons, and then dying to a grot using a slingshot.
Um... things that aren't material can't interact with the material world. Daemons have to materialize in this world to affect it. Otherwise, a bloodthirster would just put his foot down and pass through the Space Marine he tried to squish. Daemons become physical to enter our universe.
Um... things that aren't material can't interact with the material world. Daemons have to materialize in this world to affect it. Otherwise, a bloodthirster would just put his foot down and pass through the Space Marine he tried to squish. Daemons become physical to enter our universe.
They don't necessarily abide by the laws of physics though. They are constantly flowing with Warp energy. The idea of damaging them without specifically designed or blessed weaponry being somewhat random fits in my opinion. I preferred the idea of them all having Eternal Warrior.
I heard that in Know No Fear fighting in melee was noted to do disproportionate damage to Daemons. Symbolism would be important against beings formed from emotion and belief.
EmpNortonII wrote: Has anyone seen a video of what the main gun of an M-1 tank can do to another tank?
With Eternal Warrior being handed around like Halloween candy, it seems ridiculous that in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium, everyone and their brother can survive a direct hit to the chest with a 120mm tank round... to say nothing of, say, a rail gun slug or direct orbital bombardment from a Space Marine strike cruiser.
Where's the Grimdarkness of every special snowflake taking the same amount of damage from a tank round as big as his head as from a bolter round to the foot?
Who said it was a direct hit? Who said the 120mm round went through his chest.
Also remember removed from the table does not = dead. Many a soldier is shot, hit by shrapnel, or knocked out, goes down. Takes no further part in the battle, yet is very much alive. That is the essential problem. We think that every one of our toy soldiers we remove from the table is dead. We describe them as dead and killed, yet anyone who has actually seen combat knows that a lot of those who fall on the battlefield later rise to stand again.
EW represents a supernatural ability to never be knocked out of the fight until they are dead, completely, gone. Wounds that would be serious enough to cause most people to just pass out or give up on the fight and wait for a medic do not phase these people.
Now a 120mm round hitting someone, even just in the arm, would probably put them down. It might(probably would) blow the arm clean off or at least make it useless. In that case, 99% of soldiers are just gonna go down. If they arent knocked out, shock will incapacitate them. But you never heard of a soldier continuing the fight for a while with only one arm?
It's a direct hit when you center the template on the special snowflake and roll a direct hit on the scatter dice... or when you roll a 6 with your Hammerhead (extra points if you took the armory item that allows it to snipe special characters)... I'm not sure the 'Cron arrow even has to roll.
It's a direct hit with your template, great. Why is it you are capable of rolling a 1 and failing to wound. The issue is that there is no "direct hit" in the game. Hitting a moving human in the head or chest is much much more difficult than hitting some other part of the body, or otherwise hitting something near them that will cause enough shrapnel/debris to bring them down. The rules of the game are for that separate, hitting them somewhere or causing enough of a shockwave/debris/shrapnel to bring them down.
Besides, the question of the thread isn't about being hit by shrapnel or pushing on despite a wound... it's why Calgar doesn't die when, if forging a narrative, when something that rips tanks apart like a hot knife through butter makes a direct hit.
You mean like a melta gun within 6" that rolls a glorious 20 to pen and then half the time does not turn said tank to butter but instead only immobilizes it or blows off a storm bolter.
Hit does not equal direct hit.
If you want to forge your narrative, come up with ways to describe all possible things that can happen, not merely fantastically lucky, direct hits that gut people.
Um... things that aren't material can't interact with the material world. Daemons have to materialize in this world to affect it. Otherwise, a bloodthirster would just put his foot down and pass through the Space Marine he tried to squish. Daemons become physical to enter our universe.
They don't necessarily abide by the laws of physics though. They are constantly flowing with Warp energy. The idea of damaging them without specifically designed or blessed weaponry being somewhat random fits in my opinion. I preferred the idea of them all having Eternal Warrior.
I heard that in Know No Fear fighting in melee was noted to do disproportionate damage to Daemons. Symbolism would be important against beings formed from emotion and belief.
Being able to shrug off the occasional weapon randomly is what an Invulnerable Save is. If something is stopped by the daemon phasing in and out of reality or ignoring physics, that's making its Invuln save. EW only comes into play when something hits you full on.
EmpNortonII wrote: Has anyone seen a video of what the main gun of an M-1 tank can do to another tank?
With Eternal Warrior being handed around like Halloween candy, it seems ridiculous that in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium, everyone and their brother can survive a direct hit to the chest with a 120mm tank round... to say nothing of, say, a rail gun slug or direct orbital bombardment from a Space Marine strike cruiser.
Where's the Grimdarkness of every special snowflake taking the same amount of damage from a tank round as big as his head as from a bolter round to the foot?
Who said it was a direct hit? Who said the 120mm round went through his chest.
Also remember removed from the table does not = dead. Many a soldier is shot, hit by shrapnel, or knocked out, goes down. Takes no further part in the battle, yet is very much alive. That is the essential problem. We think that every one of our toy soldiers we remove from the table is dead. We describe them as dead and killed, yet anyone who has actually seen combat knows that a lot of those who fall on the battlefield later rise to stand again.
EW represents a supernatural ability to never be knocked out of the fight until they are dead, completely, gone. Wounds that would be serious enough to cause most people to just pass out or give up on the fight and wait for a medic do not phase these people.
Now a 120mm round hitting someone, even just in the arm, would probably put them down. It might(probably would) blow the arm clean off or at least make it useless. In that case, 99% of soldiers are just gonna go down. If they arent knocked out, shock will incapacitate them. But you never heard of a soldier continuing the fight for a while with only one arm?
It's a direct hit when you center the template on the special snowflake and roll a direct hit on the scatter dice... or when you roll a 6 with your Hammerhead (extra points if you took the armory item that allows it to snipe special characters)... I'm not sure the 'Cron arrow even has to roll.
It's a direct hit with your template, great. Why is it you are capable of rolling a 1 and failing to wound. The issue is that there is no "direct hit" in the game. Hitting a moving human in the head or chest is much much more difficult than hitting some other part of the body, or otherwise hitting something near them that will cause enough shrapnel/debris to bring them down. The rules of the game are for that separate, hitting them somewhere or causing enough of a shockwave/debris/shrapnel to bring them down.
Besides, the question of the thread isn't about being hit by shrapnel or pushing on despite a wound... it's why Calgar doesn't die when, if forging a narrative, when something that rips tanks apart like a hot knife through butter makes a direct hit.
You mean like a melta gun within 6" that rolls a glorious 20 to pen and then half the time does not turn said tank to butter but instead only immobilizes it or blows off a storm bolter.
Hit does not equal direct hit.
If you want to forge your narrative, come up with ways to describe all possible things that can happen, not merely fantastically lucky, direct hits that gut people.
So... if that chance of luck to barely get hit is in the game, via the 1 on the roll to wound, why do we need it again? Besides, EW isn't "this character is less likely to die in the case of the worst-case scenario." It is "the worst-case scenario for being hit by a Guardsman's laspistol and being hit by an orbital bombardment are THE EXACT SAME." That sounds more noblebright than grimdark.
(Of course, the same argument can be made against the widespread number of T6 MCs running around... but it is slightly less ridiculous for a 20-foot tall monster or battlesuit to shrug off a head-sized hole in it compared to, say, Calgar or Yarrick faring the same against the same weapon).
Have you, by chance, played WW2 Online? I actually like the vehicle damage table, because it reminds me of that. The first roll is "Did the gunner hit the target?" The second roll is "Was the shot turned aside by the armor?" The third roll, then, is "When that shot punched through the armor, did it hit something inside that will hurt the vehicle?" A vehicle is knocked out when the crew die... after all, if your shot when straight through and missed a weapon system, the crew, fuel (if flammable), ammunition (if flammable), AND the engine, then it doesn't matter that your shot went through the tank? Unless, of course, fluff indicates otherwise, which it does at least in the case of a Tau railgun.
Being able to shrug off the occasional weapon randomly is what an Invulnerable Save is. If something is stopped by the daemon phasing in and out of reality or ignoring physics, that's making its Invuln save. EW only comes into play when something hits you full on.
Good point. I still like the concept of the big guns not really being much more effective though. In terms of actual damage to a stronger Daemon, anyway.
Exergy wrote: Who said it was a direct hit? Who said the 120mm round went through his chest.
This. We don't even have to look to rules like EW to see ludicrously overpowered weapons having no effect...anything less than D strength has a 1 in 6 chance to just do nothing. I think it's best to just rationalize those as near misses. The railgun slug (or whatever) passed only a couple inches away from their body...close enough that it looked like a hit, but sheer luck meant that it missed by the slightest margin. The demolisher shell landed dead on, but a quirk in the terrain protected the target from the brunt of the blast.
Eternal Warrior exists to keep the heroes of the galaxy from dying like any jane schmoe. As mentioned earlier, it's the game mechanic answer to Plot Armour.
Except in the case of daemons and phoenix lords, in which case it's more literal - their bodies are gakky messes of immortal soul, so they kind of react weirdly to material effects.
Talizvar wrote: Depends on at what point you could imagine how they "survived".
To hit: solid hit vs. grazing but still a hit.
Wound: Chest-head shot vs. arm / leg / backpack hit vs. regenerative / reinforced bodies / medical dispensing.
Armor: Blast Protection: Hardened/inflexible/interior padding / full body covering vs. Small Arms: flexible / targeted plates.
Cover / Invulnerable saves: You can't see me!, shot pre-detonates hitting a branch, energy field deflects it just enough, it is magic!!!
"Forge your own narrative" of how a standard guard manages to survive a main cannon shot: just barely far enough away for the armor to absorb the blast and ragdoll far enough away to avoid the heat and only broke an arm landing! Good to go! (Plus the Commissar was watching...).
If you want more realism in your shooting results go look up some Rolemaster (ICE product) charts or use the concept of "Megadamage" from Palladium (you will regret it however...).
Disliking Mega-Damage from a 40K-er??? Heresy! Mega-Damage is the epitome of MORE DAKKA! And the ICE crit charts are a wonder to behold...and the ones from the old WHFRP were pretty nice as well.
Furyou Miko wrote: Eternal Warrior exists to keep the heroes of the galaxy from dying like any jane schmoe. As mentioned earlier, it's the game mechanic answer to Plot Armour.
Except in the case of daemons and phoenix lords, in which case it's more literal - their bodies are gakky messes of immortal soul, so they kind of react weirdly to material effects.
It's not an answer to PlotArmor... it *IS* PlotArmor, in the worst possible way.
Ashiraya wrote: It is a way to balance the game, to prevent your 300 point melee powerhouse from being oneshotted by a 40 point IG lascannon team.
I would not see any problem there. If you put your 300 point melee powerhouse in the front of your unit, if the lascannon team is able to roll high enough to hit (with BS3 ) and wound, if you manage to fail both your LoS and invulnerable save, then I guess you somehow deserve to have lost your melee powerhouse. Next time he will not be at the front of the unit, with a big sign pointing to his/her head saying "Shoot me here, I do not have a helmet" .
Ashiraya wrote: It is a way to balance the game, to prevent your 300 point melee powerhouse from being oneshotted by a 40 point IG lascannon team.
I would not see any problem there. If you put your 300 point melee powerhouse in the front of your unit, if the lascannon team is able to roll high enough to hit (with BS3 ) and wound, if you manage to fail both your LoS and invulnerable save, then I guess you somehow deserve to have lost your melee powerhouse. Next time he will not be at the front of the unit, with a big sign pointing to his/her head saying "Shoot me here, I do not have a helmet" .
It's developers being precious about their special characters. The concept of 300 point characters dying to a lot less in one go is common in other games, even past 40k.
I mean, in Infinity, the special characters don't get more wounds than their unit type gets (so a light infantry one would get 1W, similar or same armour to a standard trooper of his type). And even the biggest, baddest dudes like the Avatar can die to a single lucky Missile Launcher hit, or if he trips a monofilament mine.
I mean, even in 2nd edition 40k, most infantry commanders could be one-shot by a heavy bolter, and a Lascannon could (with a bit of luck) one-shot a Bloodthirster or Avatar.
Daba wrote: It's developers being precious about their special characters. The concept of 300 point characters dying to a lot less in one go is common in other games, even past 40k.
I mean, in Infinity, the special characters don't get more wounds than their unit type gets (so a light infantry one would get 1W, similar or same armour to a standard trooper of his type). And even the biggest, baddest dudes like the Avatar can die to a single lucky Missile Launcher hit, or if he trips a monofilament mine.
I mean, even in 2nd edition 40k, most infantry commanders could be one-shot by a heavy bolter, and a Lascannon could (with a bit of luck) one-shot a Bloodthirster or Avatar.
I remember an RPG game (think it was "James Bond") that had the concept of "hero points" which a similar mechanic is used in Lord of the Rings.
Something to add or subtract to a dice roll or change it's result to prevent at least the first "one shot kill" of a unique character model may be in order.
The Lysander and Abbadon getting dropped in an "un-epic" way does appear bothersome.
Guardsmen in melee will at best have S6, using a power fist. I do not think there is any 300 points melee powerhouse without T4. Maybe some dark eldar are that expensive?
They would still be susceptible to walkers and MC. But then again, the big huge giant thing having an advantage over the tiny little man seems logic.
Basically it's Dark Eldar but the only EW in their book is one of the few models that actually justifies it (basically a Phoenix Lord). And he's T4 anyway.
Why are we discussing things tha shood happen in reality or logic ?, Gork and Mork protect my Ghazghkul from eny rail gun and such or warp it self chews and spits your D weapon spears or rokkits. It's like discussing Jesus walking on watter in my opinion and I love it !
Daba wrote: Basically it's Dark Eldar but the only EW in their book is one of the few models that actually justifies it (basically a Phoenix Lord). And he's T4 anyway.
Vect is nearly 300 points and T3. And he does not deserve EW. If he gets scratched badly he is gonna quit the fight and retreat home or teleport out. One wound from str6+ and he will be removed from the tabletop. He wont be dead maybe, but he certainly isnt going to continue to fight.
Lelith is more like 200 points and also T3. Also doesnt deserve EW. Apparently she fights in gladiator combat constantly and never suffers a scratch. EW no, unhittable yes.
Psienesis wrote: However, your 300 point melee powerhouse *should* be able to be one-shotted by a 40-point IG lascannon team.
That is what lascannons do. They are anti-tank weapons.
That's Grimdark, when your massive, Heroic Warrior-God gets taken out by three nameless dudes with an anti-tank cannon.
Gotta admit though, it is a little disappointing when Abaddon or Lysander just drop.
GrimDark should be disappointing, from the perspective of the "hero" faction most especially. Your every victory should be Pyrrhic. Your only dream to die well. Your only hope to delay the inevitable by one more day that you're alive.
Psienesis wrote: However, your 300 point melee powerhouse *should* be able to be one-shotted by a 40-point IG lascannon team.
That is what lascannons do. They are anti-tank weapons.
That's Grimdark, when your massive, Heroic Warrior-God gets taken out by three nameless dudes with an anti-tank cannon.
Gotta admit though, it is a little disappointing when Abaddon or Lysander just drop.
GrimDark should be disappointing, from the perspective of the "hero" faction most especially. Your every victory should be Pyrrhic. Your only dream to die well. Your only hope to delay the inevitable by one more day that you're alive.
False, your only dream is blissfulness.....
Btw, Chaos can help you with that! Come see us soon!
I think EW isn't the big offender here. Which is T5 multiwound infantry models such as Ogryns, which are immune to Instant Death from anti-tank missiles. Which is quite ridiculous.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Personally I don't think anything made of meat that isn't a monstrous creature should have a Toughness higher than 4.
I hope everyone arguing against EW realizes just how much cheaper melee Characters who currently have EW would have to become in order to still be viable choices?
Further, regarding the lascannon example, Calgar, Lysander, Abaddon or anyone else in Terminator Armour (or Mega Armour, for that matter) could easily take a hit from a lascannon and keep going. They're supposed to have comparable armour to heavy tanks and, in the case of Terminator Armour, was specifically designed to diffuse heat efficiently. It's like trying to kill someone named Prism-man with a Lasgun.
As a final note, I for one would be grateful if we stopped the damn "special snowflake" thingie already. The only thing it does is throw gak at people who disagree with your opinions. It's condescending and rude, which doesn't lead to honest debate.
Alcibiades wrote: I think EW isn't the big offender here. Which is T5 multiwound infantry models such as Ogryns, which are immune to Instant Death from anti-tank missiles. Which is quite ridiculous.
Personally I don't think anything made of meat that isn't a monstrous creature should have a Toughness higher than 4.
So consider an elephant. Not above natural toughness, but large. Assume it gets hit by an anti tank gun. Would all hits lead to it's immidiate death? No. A shot to the head sure, a shot to some parts of its body might, but most shots would just go right through and while it might eventually kill it it would not immediately kill it.
I think the problem is not EW, it's the ID mechanic. Instead of just S double T, it should be something like if strength is 2 or more higher than toughness, then on a 6 to wound inflict ID. If S it double T, then on a 5 or 6 inflict ID. If strength is 5 higher than toughness then on a 4,5, or 6 inflict ID.
A hit is just a hit, it depends where the hit is and should have something to do with the wound mechanic. Not all wounds, even from incredibly nasty weapons will outright kill any lifeform.
Personally I think EW is too rare a thing. I recognize that 40k is a game written on a HUGE SCALE, but part of the charm of it, for me, is that the individuals have a lot of character. They're larger than life.
Adrubael Vect is a 20,000 year old psychic vampire Machiavelli-meets-Hattori-Hanzo. But an autocannon team takes him out? Lame.
Kharn is a 10,000 year old veteran of some of the bloodiest and most epic conflicts in the entire galaxy. I don't want a scout with a missile launcher blowing him up.
So consider an elephant. Not above natural toughness, but large. Assume it gets hit by an anti tank gun. Would all hits lead to it's immidiate death? No. A shot to the head sure, a shot to some parts of its body might, but most shots would just go right through and while it might eventually kill it it would not immediately kill it.
Ehmm... yeah... no.
An actual anti-tank munition would pretty much obliterate (in a spectacularly messy fashion) an elephant, no matter where you hit it. If it wasn't killed by the massive damage to its body and organs, shock and traumatic exsanguination would probably pretty much insta-gib it.
Let us remember that an elephant gun is not an anti-tank weapon. A shoulder-fired missile launcher, however, is. As is a 75mm recoilless rifle. That's a *big* bullet, that is, also, HEAT (High Explosive Anti Tank). They pierce 100mm of steel armor, which is *far* tougher than any elephant.
An elephant can (and does) survive (and sometimes even ignores) hits from pretty much any small-arm. That's why they are hunted with high-calibre rifles by guys who know what they're doing (and using helicopters, in case they only manage to piss it off). But if you go elephant hunting with a missile launcher, you pretty much have it in the bag (though bring a shovel to claim your elephant bits),
Calgar isn't going to survive a hit from a Strike Cruiser. Not in the current rules anyway.
He doesn't get any saves against StrD, and is taking at minimum D3+3 wounds unless a 1 is rolled. D6+6 if a 6 is rolled.
He will survive a direct hit from a lascannon because, even if he fails his invuln save, the combination of the save existing, his sheer durability, and the durability of Terminator armor, means that it won't kill him.
And remember that a direct hit doesn't always mean a direct hit. I'd wager that very few of the people killed by the main gun on a tank or artillery were actually directly hit by it. Those weapons kill by the explosion they cause, not by actually hitting an individual target. If you have armor which protects from the blast, like TDA or PA or a force field would, then you'd be pretty safe unless you were directly hit. Any inconsistencies can be dismissed by game abstraction.
It would be pretty silly for one of the greatest warriors ever to exist to die from a single lucky lascannon shot too.
It would be pretty silly for one of the greatest warriors ever to exist to die from a single lucky lascannon shot too.
And yet, there was Stonewall Jackson...
Yes, but Stonewall Jackson didn't wear the equivalent of a main battle tank, have the benefit intense genetic engineering, or have defensive force fields created by technology bordering on magic.
Psienesis wrote: Point is, EW really shouldn't be a thing for *most* of the characters in the game, excepting the *very few* who are actually effectively immortal.
Things like Old One-Eye, the named Necron Overlords, Celestine, Kharn, Abbadon (arguably)... those are the sorts of characters that deserve EW.
A named Chapter Master? Nah. Make him tough, like T6+, to make him immune to ID weapons but, outside of that? He's still just a Space Marine.
T5 at most. 'Just a space Marine' means that yes, there is a gun big enough to kill him, be it an orbital bombardment, rail gun shot, or necron arrow.
Grey Templar wrote: Calgar isn't going to survive a hit from a Strike Cruiser. Not in the current rules anyway.
He doesn't get any saves against StrD, and is taking at minimum D3+3 wounds unless a 1 is rolled. D6+6 if a 6 is rolled.
He will survive a direct hit from a lascannon because, even if he fails his invuln save, the combination of the save existing, his sheer durability, and the durability of Terminator armor, means that it won't kill him.
And remember that a direct hit doesn't always mean a direct hit. I'd wager that very few of the people killed by the main gun on a tank or artillery were actually directly hit by it. Those weapons kill by the explosion they cause, not by actually hitting an individual target. If you have armor which protects from the blast, like TDA or PA or a force field would, then you'd be pretty safe unless you were directly hit. Any inconsistencies can be dismissed by game abstraction.
It would be pretty silly for one of the greatest warriors ever to exist to die from a single lucky lascannon shot too.
Patton died in a car accident. Atila the Hun died of a nosebleed. I imagine that Genghis Khan the real-world Greatest Warrior to Ever Exist died of something far less dramatic than a lascannon.
Besides, even the weakest Primarch could have wiped his ass with Calgar while naked. He's far from one of the greatest in 40k.
Psienesis wrote: Point is, EW really shouldn't be a thing for *most* of the characters in the game, excepting the *very few* who are actually effectively immortal.
Things like Old One-Eye, the named Necron Overlords, Celestine, Kharn, Abbadon (arguably)... those are the sorts of characters that deserve EW.
A named Chapter Master? Nah. Make him tough, like T6+, to make him immune to ID weapons but, outside of that? He's still just a Space Marine.
Obliterators should also have EW thanks to having wolverine regeneration.
Also considering that "dead" space marines aren't even likely KIA unless they got hit by plasma or melta weapons, it's not like they really need EW anyway. Astartes don't survive direct shots from BFG's because of regeneration, but because they go comatose and turn into a possum.
Psienesis wrote: Point is, EW really shouldn't be a thing for *most* of the characters in the game, excepting the *very few* who are actually effectively immortal.
Things like Old One-Eye, the named Necron Overlords, Celestine, Kharn, Abbadon (arguably)... those are the sorts of characters that deserve EW.
A named Chapter Master? Nah. Make him tough, like T6+, to make him immune to ID weapons but, outside of that? He's still just a Space Marine.
Obliterators should also have EW thanks to having wolverine regeneration.
Also considering that "dead" space marines aren't even likely KIA unless they got hit by plasma or melta weapons, it's not like they really need EW anyway. Astartes don't survive direct shots from BFG's because of regeneration, but because they go comatose and turn into a possum.
Wolverine is, in all likelyhood, a child molester. I think we should keep him out of these discussions.
Psienesis wrote: Point is, EW really shouldn't be a thing for *most* of the characters in the game, excepting the *very few* who are actually effectively immortal.
Things like Old One-Eye, the named Necron Overlords, Celestine, Kharn, Abbadon (arguably)... those are the sorts of characters that deserve EW.
A named Chapter Master? Nah. Make him tough, like T6+, to make him immune to ID weapons but, outside of that? He's still just a Space Marine.
Obliterators should also have EW thanks to having wolverine regeneration.
Also considering that "dead" space marines aren't even likely KIA unless they got hit by plasma or melta weapons, it's not like they really need EW anyway. Astartes don't survive direct shots from BFG's because of regeneration, but because they go comatose and turn into a possum.
Wolverine is, in all likelyhood, a child molester. I think we should keep him out of these discussions.
Spoiler:
Poor Peter Parker. Ultimate really did turn him into a punching bag.
Alcibiades wrote: I think EW isn't the big offender here. Which is T5 multiwound infantry models such as Ogryns, which are immune to Instant Death from anti-tank missiles. Which is quite ridiculous.
Personally I don't think anything made of meat that isn't a monstrous creature should have a Toughness higher than 4.
So consider an elephant. Not above natural toughness, but large. Assume it gets hit by an anti tank gun. Would all hits lead to it's immidiate death? No. A shot to the head sure, a shot to some parts of its body might, but most shots would just go right through and while it might eventually kill it it would not immediately kill it.
I think the problem is not EW, it's the ID mechanic. Instead of just S double T, it should be something like if strength is 2 or more higher than toughness, then on a 6 to wound inflict ID. If S it double T, then on a 5 or 6 inflict ID. If strength is 5 higher than toughness then on a 4,5, or 6 inflict ID.
A hit is just a hit, it depends where the hit is and should have something to do with the wound mechanic. Not all wounds, even from incredibly nasty weapons will outright kill any lifeform.
Well, I could see an elephant being a monstrous creature...
An antitank gun might not kill it immediately (?) but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be fighting anymore.
Psienesis wrote: Point is, EW really shouldn't be a thing for *most* of the characters in the game, excepting the *very few* who are actually effectively immortal.
Things like Old One-Eye, the named Necron Overlords, Celestine, Kharn, Abbadon (arguably)... those are the sorts of characters that deserve EW.
A named Chapter Master? Nah. Make him tough, like T6+, to make him immune to ID weapons but, outside of that? He's still just a Space Marine.
Obliterators should also have EW thanks to having wolverine regeneration.
Also considering that "dead" space marines aren't even likely KIA unless they got hit by plasma or melta weapons, it's not like they really need EW anyway. Astartes don't survive direct shots from BFG's because of regeneration, but because they go comatose and turn into a possum.
Wolverine is, in all likelyhood, a child molester. I think we should keep him out of these discussions.
What is with the wolverine hate?
Anyways,
I really can’t believe this has gone on for 4 pages. First off to the OP, it seems like you are arguing just to argue. I have seen plenty of arguments that explain full well why there is the EW rule on some models.
Secondly, the EW rule isn’t there to say this guy can shrug off orbital blasts or take a Lascannon shot directly to the face. Its there to show the fact that the particular character will be able to fight to his dying breath. It’s the action hero movie rule. It’s the reason in every expendables movie the bad guys cant hit gak but the heroes can shoot at the ground and kill someone somewhere. It can’t be justified in real terms because there is no way to justify it, it wasn’t created to say Calgar can take a dedicated anti tank shot to the face and be fine….
Wait a minute.
I just thought of a better way to explain it… It makes the model with the rule a cat. Stay with me here, we say cats have 9 lives because of all the near misses they encounter. So the number of wounds the model has, with the EW rule, is the number of near misses it gets.
Psienesis wrote: Point is, EW really shouldn't be a thing for *most* of the characters in the game, excepting the *very few* who are actually effectively immortal.
Things like Old One-Eye, the named Necron Overlords, Celestine, Kharn, Abbadon (arguably)... those are the sorts of characters that deserve EW.
A named Chapter Master? Nah. Make him tough, like T6+, to make him immune to ID weapons but, outside of that? He's still just a Space Marine.
Obliterators should also have EW thanks to having wolverine regeneration.
Also considering that "dead" space marines aren't even likely KIA unless they got hit by plasma or melta weapons, it's not like they really need EW anyway. Astartes don't survive direct shots from BFG's because of regeneration, but because they go comatose and turn into a possum.
Wolverine is, in all likelyhood, a child molester. I think we should keep him out of these discussions.
What is with the wolverine hate?
Anyways,
I really can’t believe this has gone on for 4 pages. First off to the OP, it seems like you are arguing just to argue. I have seen plenty of arguments that explain full well why there is the EW rule on some models.
Secondly, the EW rule isn’t there to say this guy can shrug off orbital blasts or take a Lascannon shot directly to the face. Its there to show the fact that the particular character will be able to fight to his dying breath. It’s the action hero movie rule. It’s the reason in every expendables movie the bad guys cant hit gak but the heroes can shoot at the ground and kill someone somewhere. It can’t be justified in real terms because there is no way to justify it, it wasn’t created to say Calgar can take a dedicated anti tank shot to the face and be fine….
Wait a minute.
I just thought of a better way to explain it… It makes the model with the rule a cat. Stay with me here, we say cats have 9 lives because of all the near misses they encounter. So the number of wounds the model has, with the EW rule, is the number of near misses it gets.
Psienesis wrote: Point is, EW really shouldn't be a thing for *most* of the characters in the game, excepting the *very few* who are actually effectively immortal.
Things like Old One-Eye, the named Necron Overlords, Celestine, Kharn, Abbadon (arguably)... those are the sorts of characters that deserve EW.
A named Chapter Master? Nah. Make him tough, like T6+, to make him immune to ID weapons but, outside of that? He's still just a Space Marine.
Obliterators should also have EW thanks to having wolverine regeneration.
Also considering that "dead" space marines aren't even likely KIA unless they got hit by plasma or melta weapons, it's not like they really need EW anyway. Astartes don't survive direct shots from BFG's because of regeneration, but because they go comatose and turn into a possum.
Wolverine is, in all likelyhood, a child molester. I think we should keep him out of these discussions.
What is with the wolverine hate?
Anyways,
I really can’t believe this has gone on for 4 pages. First off to the OP, it seems like you are arguing just to argue. I have seen plenty of arguments that explain full well why there is the EW rule on some models.
Secondly, the EW rule isn’t there to say this guy can shrug off orbital blasts or take a Lascannon shot directly to the face. Its there to show the fact that the particular character will be able to fight to his dying breath. It’s the action hero movie rule. It’s the reason in every expendables movie the bad guys cant hit gak but the heroes can shoot at the ground and kill someone somewhere. It can’t be justified in real terms because there is no way to justify it, it wasn’t created to say Calgar can take a dedicated anti tank shot to the face and be fine….
Wait a minute.
I just thought of a better way to explain it… It makes the model with the rule a cat. Stay with me here, we say cats have 9 lives because of all the near misses they encounter. So the number of wounds the model has, with the EW rule, is the number of near misses it gets.
Some times I surprise myself with how smart I am.
... except that a precision shot (a shot directly on the offending character) will STILL inflict only one wound.
So consider an elephant. Not above natural toughness, but large. Assume it gets hit by an anti tank gun. Would all hits lead to it's immidiate death? No. A shot to the head sure, a shot to some parts of its body might, but most shots would just go right through and while it might eventually kill it it would not immediately kill it.
Ehmm... yeah... no.
An actual anti-tank munition would pretty much obliterate (in a spectacularly messy fashion) an elephant, no matter where you hit it. If it wasn't killed by the massive damage to its body and organs, shock and traumatic exsanguination would probably pretty much insta-gib it.
Let us remember that an elephant gun is not an anti-tank weapon. A shoulder-fired missile launcher, however, is. As is a 75mm recoilless rifle. That's a *big* bullet, that is, also, HEAT (High Explosive Anti Tank). They pierce 100mm of steel armor, which is *far* tougher than any elephant.
An elephant can (and does) survive (and sometimes even ignores) hits from pretty much any small-arm. That's why they are hunted with high-calibre rifles by guys who know what they're doing (and using helicopters, in case they only manage to piss it off). But if you go elephant hunting with a missile launcher, you pretty much have it in the bag (though bring a shovel to claim your elephant bits),
If we're playing hypotheticals, maybe the shell just takes the tail off, or the missile hits the ground just to the right and peppers the elephant with shrapnel. Both are techinically hits but unlikely to cause significant damage. Even a direct hit enough to take a leg off might not actually kill an elephant, although its unlikely to be particularly happy about its situation.A high velicty shell might even pass entirerly through he elephant without exploding because its through and out too quickly.
The whole process in 40k for hitting wounding and armour saves should be taken as a whole and is merely a respresentation ofthe likelihood of a particular model causing damage to another model. Things like EW and feel no pain are simply additional branches on the probability tree.
So consider an elephant. Not above natural toughness, but large. Assume it gets hit by an anti tank gun. Would all hits lead to it's immidiate death? No. A shot to the head sure, a shot to some parts of its body might, but most shots would just go right through and while it might eventually kill it it would not immediately kill it.
Ehmm... yeah... no.
An actual anti-tank munition would pretty much obliterate (in a spectacularly messy fashion) an elephant, no matter where you hit it. If it wasn't killed by the massive damage to its body and organs, shock and traumatic exsanguination would probably pretty much insta-gib it.
Let us remember that an elephant gun is not an anti-tank weapon. A shoulder-fired missile launcher, however, is. As is a 75mm recoilless rifle. That's a *big* bullet, that is, also, HEAT (High Explosive Anti Tank). They pierce 100mm of steel armor, which is *far* tougher than any elephant.
An elephant can (and does) survive (and sometimes even ignores) hits from pretty much any small-arm. That's why they are hunted with high-calibre rifles by guys who know what they're doing (and using helicopters, in case they only manage to piss it off). But if you go elephant hunting with a missile launcher, you pretty much have it in the bag (though bring a shovel to claim your elephant bits),
If we're playing hypotheticals, maybe the shell just takes the tail off, or the missile hits the ground just to the right and peppers the elephant with shrapnel. Both are techinically hits but unlikely to cause significant damage. Even a direct hit enough to take a leg off might not actually kill an elephant, although its unlikely to be particularly happy about its situation.A high velicty shell might even pass entirerly through he elephant without exploding because its through and out too quickly.
The whole process in 40k for hitting wounding and armour saves should be taken as a whole and is merely a respresentation ofthe likelihood of a particular model causing damage to another model. Things like EW and feel no pain are simply additional branches on the probability tree.
A kinetic energy penetrator packs a wollup it is true, but only if the object it hits slows it enough. Some hits will pass through very quickly without changing the velocity of the shell. In that case the force of the 'hit' would be pretty negligible. Some high velocity penetrators can pentrate 3 meters of steel armor. But that dosnt mean they do a lot of damage to a 10mm plate. They are built to keep driving their kinnetic energy through a target.
It is just like that with bullets. Often the shot from a rifle that passes clean through a person have the highest mortality rate. Those that tumble around inside
For weapons that depend on heat, like a meltagun or a lascannon. A large biological creature has a lot of water which is very resistant to heat. Biological systems are also more resistant to temperature change than electronic ones. So a single hit from one of these that is designed to go after tanks is perhaps less likely to completely incapacitate a biological creature.
So consider an elephant. Not above natural toughness, but large. Assume it gets hit by an anti tank gun. Would all hits lead to it's immidiate death? No. A shot to the head sure, a shot to some parts of its body might, but most shots would just go right through and while it might eventually kill it it would not immediately kill it.
Ehmm... yeah... no.
An actual anti-tank munition would pretty much obliterate (in a spectacularly messy fashion) an elephant, no matter where you hit it. If it wasn't killed by the massive damage to its body and organs, shock and traumatic exsanguination would probably pretty much insta-gib it.
Let us remember that an elephant gun is not an anti-tank weapon. A shoulder-fired missile launcher, however, is. As is a 75mm recoilless rifle. That's a *big* bullet, that is, also, HEAT (High Explosive Anti Tank). They pierce 100mm of steel armor, which is *far* tougher than any elephant.
An elephant can (and does) survive (and sometimes even ignores) hits from pretty much any small-arm. That's why they are hunted with high-calibre rifles by guys who know what they're doing (and using helicopters, in case they only manage to piss it off). But if you go elephant hunting with a missile launcher, you pretty much have it in the bag (though bring a shovel to claim your elephant bits),
If we're playing hypotheticals, maybe the shell just takes the tail off, or the missile hits the ground just to the right and peppers the elephant with shrapnel. Both are techinically hits but unlikely to cause significant damage. Even a direct hit enough to take a leg off might not actually kill an elephant, although its unlikely to be particularly happy about its situation.A high velicty shell might even pass entirerly through he elephant without exploding because its through and out too quickly.
The whole process in 40k for hitting wounding and armour saves should be taken as a whole and is merely a respresentation ofthe likelihood of a particular model causing damage to another model. Things like EW and feel no pain are simply additional branches on the probability tree.
A kinetic energy penetrator packs a wollup it is true, but only if the object it hits slows it enough. Some hits will pass through very quickly without changing the velocity of the shell. In that case the force of the 'hit' would be pretty negligible. Some high velocity penetrators can pentrate 3 meters of steel armor. But that dosnt mean they do a lot of damage to a 10mm plate. They are built to keep driving their kinnetic energy through a target.
It is just like that with bullets. Often the shot from a rifle that passes clean through a person have the highest mortality rate. Those that tumble around inside
For weapons that depend on heat, like a meltagun or a lascannon. A large biological creature has a lot of water which is very resistant to heat. Biological systems are also more resistant to temperature change than electronic ones. So a single hit from one of these that is designed to go after tanks is perhaps less likely to completely incapacitate a biological creature.
Exergy wrote: So a single hit from one of these that is designed to go after tanks is perhaps less likely to completely incapacitate a biological creature.
In some Black Library books las-weaponry has been shown to flash-boil the water inside creatures. A lascannon would presumably flash-boil a larger area and as such would (I think) likely be lethal.
Exergy wrote: So a single hit from one of these that is designed to go after tanks is perhaps less likely to completely incapacitate a biological creature.
In some Black Library books las-weaponry has been shown to flash-boil the water inside creatures. A lascannon would presumably flash-boil a larger area and as such would (I think) likely be lethal.
in an alternate universe, where physics do not exist. GW's grasp of thermodynamics is middle school level.
Something that could flash boil all of the water in an elephant would completely melt all a baneblade without even hitting it.
Exergy wrote: So a single hit from one of these that is designed to go after tanks is perhaps less likely to completely incapacitate a biological creature.
In some Black Library books las-weaponry has been shown to flash-boil the water inside creatures. A lascannon would presumably flash-boil a larger area and as such would (I think) likely be lethal.
in an alternate universe, where physics do not exist. GW's grasp of thermodynamics is middle school level.
Something that could flash boil all of the water in an elephant would completely melt all a baneblade without even hitting it.
What we have to do with anything in 40k is to set aside "facts" and simply work off "it's cool, so it must be true".
Psienesis wrote: Things like Old One-Eye, the named Necron Overlords, Celestine, Kharn, Abbadon (arguably)... those are the sorts of characters that deserve EW.
Celestine does not have EW. Because reasons.
EmpNortonII wrote: Wolverine is, in all likelyhood, a child molester. I think we should keep him out of these discussions.
What the hell are you talking about and how in hell in that related to the question of whether obliterators should get EW?
Psienesis wrote: Things like Old One-Eye, the named Necron Overlords, Celestine, Kharn, Abbadon (arguably)... those are the sorts of characters that deserve EW.
Celestine does not have EW. Because reasons.
EmpNortonII wrote: Wolverine is, in all likelyhood, a child molester. I think we should keep him out of these discussions.
What the hell are you talking about and how in hell in that related to the question of whether obliterators should get EW?
Have you ever noticed how much time Wolverine spends around teenaged girls at Xavier's school?
Psienesis wrote: Things like Old One-Eye, the named Necron Overlords, Celestine, Kharn, Abbadon (arguably)... those are the sorts of characters that deserve EW.
Celestine does not have EW. Because reasons.
EmpNortonII wrote: Wolverine is, in all likelyhood, a child molester. I think we should keep him out of these discussions.
What the hell are you talking about and how in hell in that related to the question of whether obliterators should get EW?
Have you ever noticed how much time Wolverine spends around teenaged girls at Xavier's school?
Now, usually I like Daemonettes, and Chaos in general. But I think, this time, just this once...
I imagine it's just a case that heavy guns that should obliterate anything would be too powerful and therfore expensive in points than is practical for a tabletop game. You can justify it by arguing that a heavy shell fired from something with a slow rate of fire, would find it harder to make a direct hit on a man-sized target. When you roll 1's to wound a gretchin with a lascannon, imagine that the beam has just singed him, and he's leapt out of the way with a singed arm.
But then little about the 40k universe is realistic. "Let's transport our company of elite warriors in this kilometre long warship, land them and assault the enmies stronghold" "But sir, we have 100 times more firepower on the ship. May I suggest we obliterate them from orbit?" "Silence heratic! Can't you see that would lead to a boring battle report!"
thegreatchimp wrote: I imagine it's just a case that heavy guns that should obliterate anything would be too powerful and therfore expensive in points than is practical for a tabletop game. You can justify it by arguing that a heavy shell fired from something with a slow rate of fire, would find it harder to make a direct hit on a man-sized target. When you roll 1's to wound a gretchin with a lascannon, imagine that the beam has just singed him, and he's leapt out of the way with a singed arm.
But then little about the 40k universe is realistic. "Let's transport our company of elite warriors in this kilometre long warship, land them and assault the enmies stronghold" "But sir, we have 100 times more firepower on the ship. May I suggest we obliterate them from orbit?" "Silence heratic! Can't you see that would lead to a boring battle report!"
Melee is, in general, already pretty worthless. Meanwhile, Look Out, Sit! is already pretty effective. Wouldn't it make more sense for those characters to get a reduction in points instead of further encouraging players to focus on Str 7 spam?
For someone who would like to spend points on a Vindicator or a Hammerhead, it's bad enough that MCs dominate. Why should so many characters be immune to the effect of the supposedly awesome main gun?
Heck, most of the EW characters would benefit from a slightly better Invuln Save, a point cost reduction, and removal of EW, since in most cases, they'd be more bang for the buck, more survivable in the meta, and- dare I say it- more realistic.
Psienesis wrote: Point is, EW really shouldn't be a thing for *most* of the characters in the game, excepting the *very few* who are actually effectively immortal.
Things like Old One-Eye, the named Necron Overlords, Celestine, Kharn, Abbadon (arguably)... those are the sorts of characters that deserve EW.
A named Chapter Master? Nah. Make him tough, like T6+, to make him immune to ID weapons but, outside of that? He's still just a Space Marine.
Obliterators should also have EW thanks to having wolverine regeneration.
Also considering that "dead" space marines aren't even likely KIA unless they got hit by plasma or melta weapons, it's not like they really need EW anyway. Astartes don't survive direct shots from BFG's because of regeneration, but because they go comatose and turn into a possum.
Wolverine is, in all likelyhood, a child molester. I think we should keep him out of these discussions.
What is with the wolverine hate?
Anyways,
I really can’t believe this has gone on for 4 pages. First off to the OP, it seems like you are arguing just to argue. I have seen plenty of arguments that explain full well why there is the EW rule on some models.
Secondly, the EW rule isn’t there to say this guy can shrug off orbital blasts or take a Lascannon shot directly to the face. Its there to show the fact that the particular character will be able to fight to his dying breath. It’s the action hero movie rule. It’s the reason in every expendables movie the bad guys cant hit gak but the heroes can shoot at the ground and kill someone somewhere. It can’t be justified in real terms because there is no way to justify it, it wasn’t created to say Calgar can take a dedicated anti tank shot to the face and be fine….
Wait a minute.
I just thought of a better way to explain it… It makes the model with the rule a cat. Stay with me here, we say cats have 9 lives because of all the near misses they encounter. So the number of wounds the model has, with the EW rule, is the number of near misses it gets.
Some times I surprise myself with how smart I am.
... except that a precision shot (a shot directly on the offending character) will STILL inflict only one wound.
Again, we are arguing real life situations to table top situations.... But if we must continue, so be it. If it is a precision shot directly on the character then obviously it didn’t out right kill him because it only nicked his shoulder or he dodged at the last moment and it only singed hair. So it still technically hit him but didnt kill because he/she is an EW.
thegreatchimp wrote: I imagine it's just a case that heavy guns that should obliterate anything would be too powerful and therfore expensive in points than is practical for a tabletop game. You can justify it by arguing that a heavy shell fired from something with a slow rate of fire, would find it harder to make a direct hit on a man-sized target. When you roll 1's to wound a gretchin with a lascannon, imagine that the beam has just singed him, and he's leapt out of the way with a singed arm.
But then little about the 40k universe is realistic. "Let's transport our company of elite warriors in this kilometre long warship, land them and assault the enmies stronghold" "But sir, we have 100 times more firepower on the ship. May I suggest we obliterate them from orbit?" "Silence heratic! Can't you see that would lead to a boring battle report!"
For someone who would like to spend points on a Vindicator or a Hammerhead, it's bad enough that MCs dominate. Why should so many characters be immune to the effect of the supposedly awesome main gun?
Heck, most of the EW characters would benefit from a slightly better Invuln Save, a point cost reduction, and removal of EW, since in most cases, they'd be more bang for the buck, more survivable in the meta, and- dare I say it- more realistic.
I have my own issues with some of the rules, and I've no issue "fixing" a few, but I'm not sure modifying the rules to turn a demolisher cannon into a "kills everything under the pie plate" would be a good alteration to make though. If that's what you're suggesting. If not,do correct me. I think the game would be unfun if there was a lot of big gun insta-kill going around.
I think a problem for big gunswith the recent editions is that cover saves are WAY too generous. It's easy to get a 4++, and particuarely combined with stealth and shrouded, its not that difficul to get a 3++ or even a 2++. My marines are begnning to question why the value of wearing power armour. Hopefully somethign will be done about it by 8th ed.
The way I see it is EW doesn't give the model the ability to shrug off lethal attacks and keep fighting despite getting hit by something that should turn them to dust/goo/flesh-flakes/a memory, but the fact that they have been shown to do that in the fluff is what gives them EW. For example, Abaddon the Despoiler has been kicking around for 10,000 years fighting all sorts of enemies and has a lot of combat expertise. That Demolisher Cannon shot that hits him? He's seen that before and knows the method of positioning himself to take the least amount of damage, Tzeench says "lol nope" and makes that shot just a little weaker then it should be, and so on. The point is EW is not given, it's earned. Precise shot automatically targets the character? They have super-human senses and can react fast enough that it the shot normally aimed for their head just grazes them or something. Simple as that.
Vlad_The_Obliterator wrote: The way I see it is EW doesn't give the model the ability to shrug off lethal attacks and keep fighting despite getting hit by something that should turn them to dust/goo/flesh-flakes/a memory, but the fact that they have been shown to do that in the fluff is what gives them EW. For example, Abaddon the Despoiler has been kicking around for 10,000 years fighting all sorts of enemies and has a lot of combat expertise. That Demolisher Cannon shot that hits him? He's seen that before and knows the method of positioning himself to take the least amount of damage, Tzeench says "lol nope" and makes that shot just a little weaker then it should be, and so on. The point is EW is not given, it's earned. Precise shot automatically targets the character? They have super-human senses and can react fast enough that it the shot normally aimed for their head just grazes them or something. Simple as that.
Or in the case of Yarrick: sheer, unadulterated badassery.
Psienesis wrote: Point is, EW really shouldn't be a thing for *most* of the characters in the game, excepting the *very few* who are actually effectively immortal.
Things like Old One-Eye, the named Necron Overlords, Celestine, Kharn, Abbadon (arguably)... those are the sorts of characters that deserve EW.
A named Chapter Master? Nah. Make him tough, like T6+, to make him immune to ID weapons but, outside of that? He's still just a Space Marine.
Obliterators should also have EW thanks to having wolverine regeneration.
Also considering that "dead" space marines aren't even likely KIA unless they got hit by plasma or melta weapons, it's not like they really need EW anyway. Astartes don't survive direct shots from BFG's because of regeneration, but because they go comatose and turn into a possum.
Wolverine is, in all likelyhood, a child molester. I think we should keep him out of these discussions.
What is with the wolverine hate?
Anyways,
I really can’t believe this has gone on for 4 pages. First off to the OP, it seems like you are arguing just to argue. I have seen plenty of arguments that explain full well why there is the EW rule on some models.
Secondly, the EW rule isn’t there to say this guy can shrug off orbital blasts or take a Lascannon shot directly to the face. Its there to show the fact that the particular character will be able to fight to his dying breath. It’s the action hero movie rule. It’s the reason in every expendables movie the bad guys cant hit gak but the heroes can shoot at the ground and kill someone somewhere. It can’t be justified in real terms because there is no way to justify it, it wasn’t created to say Calgar can take a dedicated anti tank shot to the face and be fine….
Wait a minute.
I just thought of a better way to explain it… It makes the model with the rule a cat. Stay with me here, we say cats have 9 lives because of all the near misses they encounter. So the number of wounds the model has, with the EW rule, is the number of near misses it gets.
Some times I surprise myself with how smart I am.
... except that a precision shot (a shot directly on the offending character) will STILL inflict only one wound.
Again, we are arguing real life situations to table top situations.... But if we must continue, so be it. If it is a precision shot directly on the character then obviously it didn’t out right kill him because it only nicked his shoulder or he dodged at the last moment and it only singed hair. So it still technically hit him but didnt kill because he/she is an EW.
... and then a pair of Broadsides open up on said character, and then he dies... because for some reason, a handful of rockets that a Land Raider could shrug off are more dangerous than a rail gun that eats Raiders for breakfast.
I think I may have left out something important... it's not just that the big, massive guns have little real effect. It's also that massed bolter fire or slightly-lessed-massed-but-slightly-bigger weapons have no trouble.
Consider what EW would mean for Old One-Eye. He isn't more adept at dodging railguns or Necron arrows or Demolisher guns- those things affect him just as well as they do any other Carnifex. For him, EW means that Grey Knights and Librarians can't axe him with their magic weapons.
Why should Abaddon be raped by a trio of Tau suits with plasma when he somehow magically shrugs off railgun hits?
Vlad_The_Obliterator wrote: The way I see it is EW doesn't give the model the ability to shrug off lethal attacks and keep fighting despite getting hit by something that should turn them to dust/goo/flesh-flakes/a memory, but the fact that they have been shown to do that in the fluff is what gives them EW. For example, Abaddon the Despoiler has been kicking around for 10,000 years fighting all sorts of enemies and has a lot of combat expertise. That Demolisher Cannon shot that hits him? He's seen that before and knows the method of positioning himself to take the least amount of damage, Tzeench says "lol nope" and makes that shot just a little weaker then it should be, and so on. The point is EW is not given, it's earned. Precise shot automatically targets the character? They have super-human senses and can react fast enough that it the shot normally aimed for their head just grazes them or something. Simple as that.
Or in the case of Yarrick: sheer, unadulterated badassery.
Said badassery will avail him not if a pair of Crisis suits with plasma jump in rapid fire range and give him one for. He dies as surely as everyone else.
Vlad_The_Obliterator wrote: The way I see it is EW doesn't give the model the ability to shrug off lethal attacks and keep fighting despite getting hit by something that should turn them to dust/goo/flesh-flakes/a memory, but the fact that they have been shown to do that in the fluff is what gives them EW. For example, Abaddon the Despoiler has been kicking around for 10,000 years fighting all sorts of enemies and has a lot of combat expertise. That Demolisher Cannon shot that hits him? He's seen that before and knows the method of positioning himself to take the least amount of damage, Tzeench says "lol nope" and makes that shot just a little weaker then it should be, and so on. The point is EW is not given, it's earned. Precise shot automatically targets the character? They have super-human senses and can react fast enough that it the shot normally aimed for their head just grazes them or something. Simple as that.
Or in the case of Yarrick: sheer, unadulterated badassery.
Said badassery will avail him not if a pair of Crisis suits with plasma jump in rapid fire range and give him one for. He dies as surely as everyone else.
Vlad_The_Obliterator wrote: The way I see it is EW doesn't give the model the ability to shrug off lethal attacks and keep fighting despite getting hit by something that should turn them to dust/goo/flesh-flakes/a memory, but the fact that they have been shown to do that in the fluff is what gives them EW. For example, Abaddon the Despoiler has been kicking around for 10,000 years fighting all sorts of enemies and has a lot of combat expertise. That Demolisher Cannon shot that hits him? He's seen that before and knows the method of positioning himself to take the least amount of damage, Tzeench says "lol nope" and makes that shot just a little weaker then it should be, and so on. The point is EW is not given, it's earned. Precise shot automatically targets the character? They have super-human senses and can react fast enough that it the shot normally aimed for their head just grazes them or something. Simple as that.
Or in the case of Yarrick: sheer, unadulterated badassery.
Said badassery will avail him not if a pair of Crisis suits with plasma jump in rapid fire range and give him one for. He dies as surely as everyone else.
That's what 105-men infantry platoons are for.
Umm... that Look Out Sir is good enough was kind of my point.
Vlad_The_Obliterator wrote: The way I see it is EW doesn't give the model the ability to shrug off lethal attacks and keep fighting despite getting hit by something that should turn them to dust/goo/flesh-flakes/a memory, but the fact that they have been shown to do that in the fluff is what gives them EW. For example, Abaddon the Despoiler has been kicking around for 10,000 years fighting all sorts of enemies and has a lot of combat expertise. That Demolisher Cannon shot that hits him? He's seen that before and knows the method of positioning himself to take the least amount of damage, Tzeench says "lol nope" and makes that shot just a little weaker then it should be, and so on. The point is EW is not given, it's earned. Precise shot automatically targets the character? They have super-human senses and can react fast enough that it the shot normally aimed for their head just grazes them or something. Simple as that.
Or in the case of Yarrick: sheer, unadulterated badassery.
Said badassery will avail him not if a pair of Crisis suits with plasma jump in rapid fire range and give him one for. He dies as surely as everyone else.
That's what 105-men infantry platoons are for.
Umm... that Look Out Sir is good enough was kind of my point.
I was talking about throwing the men out in front of the guns, and not rely on LoS...
Vlad_The_Obliterator wrote: The way I see it is EW doesn't give the model the ability to shrug off lethal attacks and keep fighting despite getting hit by something that should turn them to dust/goo/flesh-flakes/a memory, but the fact that they have been shown to do that in the fluff is what gives them EW. For example, Abaddon the Despoiler has been kicking around for 10,000 years fighting all sorts of enemies and has a lot of combat expertise. That Demolisher Cannon shot that hits him? He's seen that before and knows the method of positioning himself to take the least amount of damage, Tzeench says "lol nope" and makes that shot just a little weaker then it should be, and so on. The point is EW is not given, it's earned. Precise shot automatically targets the character? They have super-human senses and can react fast enough that it the shot normally aimed for their head just grazes them or something. Simple as that.
Abaddon is a strong independent black crusader who doesn't need no realism.
Vlad_The_Obliterator wrote: The way I see it is EW doesn't give the model the ability to shrug off lethal attacks and keep fighting despite getting hit by something that should turn them to dust/goo/flesh-flakes/a memory, but the fact that they have been shown to do that in the fluff is what gives them EW. For example, Abaddon the Despoiler has been kicking around for 10,000 years fighting all sorts of enemies and has a lot of combat expertise. That Demolisher Cannon shot that hits him? He's seen that before and knows the method of positioning himself to take the least amount of damage, Tzeench says "lol nope" and makes that shot just a little weaker then it should be, and so on. The point is EW is not given, it's earned. Precise shot automatically targets the character? They have super-human senses and can react fast enough that it the shot normally aimed for their head just grazes them or something. Simple as that.
Or in the case of Yarrick: sheer, unadulterated badassery.
Said badassery will avail him not if a pair of Crisis suits with plasma jump in rapid fire range and give him one for. He dies as surely as everyone else.
That's what 105-men infantry platoons are for.
Umm... that Look Out Sir is good enough was kind of my point.
I was talking about throwing the men out in front of the guns, and not rely on LoS...
I have finally read this entire post and I am ready to weigh in my opinions and comments.
There are a few points that I would like to point out. Eternal Warrior is a special rule that represents the characters position as being chosen by the gods as their champion, fortuned by fate. That is why Eternal Warriors can shrug off the most devastating attacks. They are the demi-God's of the Greek mythology, and the Superheroes of the Milky Way Galaxy.
As for the mundane models being able to shrug off the most devastating attacks, I will leave that down to pure luck. Anyone who has been involved in manufacturing will tell you that even though you can try to make a million parts all the same, you still have variances from part to part.
Whether because it is the warhead failing to arm, or a Las Cannon failing to focus its beam at that precise distance. The point being GW has declared that a failure to wound is always possible with a 16%+ chance. You can come up with your own narrative as to why the weapon failed to cause a casualty. I define casualty as any injury that takes a model out of action for the rest of the battle.
If folks are really interested as to what defines a hero over a normal soldier. Read some stories about Congressional Medal of Honor recipients, or Victorian Cross is the UK equivalent for their armed services. Both will paint a picture far better than a gaming system like WH40K can.
Wolverine is, in all likelyhood, a child molester.
Both of these are completely unacceptable. You trivialise things that are both extremely serious and utterly irrelevant to this topic. Just because 1d4chan or reddit or whatever is disgusting doesn't mean that it's at all okay to use such language.
Wolverine is, in all likelyhood, a child molester.
Both of these are completely unacceptable. You trivialise things that are both extremely serious and utterly irrelevant to this topic. Just because 1d4chan or reddit or whatever is disgusting doesn't mean that it's at all okay to use such language.
This site is based off a game which includes a civilization based off/survives by rape, a god of debauchery which includes rape, and on a whole where genocide and speciocide are trivialized as a daily basis where the "good guys" are people abducted as children so they can be turned into religious zealot that get off by slaughtering people. The greater delusion is thinking that W40K is family friendly. The same conservatives that set off the fires to attack Dungeons and Dragons during the 70's and 80's or Harry Potter would be praising god if they ever found out about 40k, because they would finally have something to complain and rail about that actually exists.
Both of these are completely unacceptable. You trivialise things that are both extremely serious and utterly irrelevant to this topic. Just because 1d4chan or reddit or whatever is disgusting doesn't mean that it's at all okay to use such language.
This site is based off a game which includes a civilization based off/survives by rape, a god of debauchery which includes rape, and on a whole where genocide and speciocide are trivialized as a daily basis where the "good guys" are people abducted as children so they can be turned into religious zealot that get off by slaughtering people. The greater delusion is thinking that W40K is family friendly. The same conservatives that set off the fires to attack Dungeons and Dragons during the 70's and 80's or Harry Potter would be praising god if they ever found out about 40k, because they would finally have something to complain and rail about that actually exists.
The problem isn't the legitimate discussion of these subjects, it's the trivialisation of them by using them as casual perjoratives and in irrelevant comments.
To wit: "Abaddon's forces are known for raping the civilians of the worlds they conquer" is a legitimate use of the word and excusable. "That gun was so big Abaddon got raped" is not, and is unacceptable.
Both of these are completely unacceptable. You trivialise things that are both extremely serious and utterly irrelevant to this topic. Just because 1d4chan or reddit or whatever is disgusting doesn't mean that it's at all okay to use such language.
This site is based off a game which includes a civilization based off/survives by rape, a god of debauchery which includes rape, and on a whole where genocide and speciocide are trivialized as a daily basis where the "good guys" are people abducted as children so they can be turned into religious zealot that get off by slaughtering people. The greater delusion is thinking that W40K is family friendly. The same conservatives that set off the fires to attack Dungeons and Dragons during the 70's and 80's or Harry Potter would be praising god if they ever found out about 40k, because they would finally have something to complain and rail about that actually exists.
The problem isn't the legitimate discussion of these subjects, it's the trivialisation of them by using them as casual perjoratives and in irrelevant comments.
To wit: "Abaddon's forces are known for raping the civilians of the worlds they conquer" is a legitimate use of the word and excusable. "That gun was so big Abaddon got raped" is not, and is unacceptable.
Yet murder is just as bad a crime as rape (if not worse considering it removes a sentient life form permanently), yet it is perfectly fine if used as a verb casually. This is nothing more than a double-standard.
No, murder is not worse than rape. I would say that rape is a far worse crime, because the victim continues to suffer afterwards, whereas murder only inflicts suffering for as long as the crime is being committed.
Wyzilla wrote: The same conservatives that set off the fires to attack Dungeons and Dragons during the 70's and 80's or Harry Potter would be praising god if they ever found out about 40k, because they would finally have something to complain and rail about that actually exists.
Why? The Imperium seems pretty conservative-friendly to me.
I think the difference is that when someone get murdered, people usually do not question his or her choice of clothing, his or her lifestyle (unless he is actually a criminal taking part in particularly violent activities), or even whether he or she enjoyed it. Different treatment begets different treatment.
Just consider "To hit" landing the shot close enough to probably affect the target vs. missing by a mile, "To wound" if it actually does manage to strike a point where it usually would do damage vs. whistling past the ear, and "Saving throw" to see if the target manages to luckily have his head just so that the shot bounces from the helmet or just grazes the scalp vs. burrowing through his head.
Furyou Miko wrote: No, murder is not worse than rape. I would say that rape is a far worse crime, because the victim continues to suffer afterwards, whereas murder only inflicts suffering for as long as the crime is being committed.
But that's not a problem when it's a joke, it's just special treatment if rape is the only thing that is "taboo" to use in a joking manner (hell, even the N-Word is thrown around pretty freely these days). The problem is when it's used as a threat. That's where the line is crossed, the same with murder.
Wyzilla wrote: The same conservatives that set off the fires to attack Dungeons and Dragons during the 70's and 80's or Harry Potter would be praising god if they ever found out about 40k, because they would finally have something to complain and rail about that actually exists.
Why? The Imperium seems pretty conservative-friendly to me.
I think the difference is that when someone get murdered, people usually do not question his or her choice of clothing, his or her lifestyle (unless he is actually a criminal taking part in particularly violent activities), or even whether he or she enjoyed it. Different treatment begets different treatment.
The Imperium is a parody of extreme conservatism. Although that's if the people being turned into a parody would get the joke.
Furyou Miko wrote: No, murder is not worse than rape. I would say that rape is a far worse crime, because the victim continues to suffer afterwards, whereas murder only inflicts suffering for as long as the crime is being committed.
But that's not a problem when it's a joke, it's just special treatment if rape is the only thing that is "taboo" to use in a joking manner (hell, even the N-Word is thrown around pretty freely these days). The problem is when it's used as a threat. That's where the line is crossed, the same with murder.
Wyzilla wrote: The same conservatives that set off the fires to attack Dungeons and Dragons during the 70's and 80's or Harry Potter would be praising god if they ever found out about 40k, because they would finally have something to complain and rail about that actually exists.
Why? The Imperium seems pretty conservative-friendly to me.
I think the difference is that when someone get murdered, people usually do not question his or her choice of clothing, his or her lifestyle (unless he is actually a criminal taking part in particularly violent activities), or even whether he or she enjoyed it. Different treatment begets different treatment.
The Imperium is a parody of extreme conservatism. Although that's if the people being turned into a parody would get the joke.
My dad watched The Colbert Report for several months before figuring out it was a parody...
I expect that happens a LOT in 40k.
Anyhoo... back to the discussion. It's often been talked about Abaddon being 'defeated' in a 40k game means he just fled back to his battle barge or what have you, which is fine for a narrative after two Crisis suits have lit him up like a 3-year old playing with matches under a Christmas tree... but it doesn't explain why Abaddon is equally at risk of harm from 1) a bolt of plasma that is fired from a relatively low-powered plasma weapon and 2) the guns of a frikkin' strike cruiser.
Wyzilla wrote: But that's not a problem when it's a joke, it's just special treatment if rape is the only thing that is "taboo" to use in a joking manner (hell, even the N-Word is thrown around pretty freely these days). The problem is when it's used as a threat. That's where the line is crossed, the same with murder.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I think the difference is that when someone get murdered, people usually do not question his or her choice of clothing, his or her lifestyle (unless he is actually a criminal taking part in particularly violent activities), or even whether he or she enjoyed it. Different treatment begets different treatment.
Some people are afraid that jokes on rape will lead to rape being trivialized because we are seeing rape being trivialized sometime. No-one is really afraid of killing being trivialized. Generally speaking, there is a lot less consensus on rape than there is on killing.
Wyzilla wrote: The Imperium is a parody of extreme conservatism. Although that's if the people being turned into a parody would get the joke.
I think Chicks comics hold a bit of the answer .
Maybe the solution should be to remove instant death, and instead have some weapons remove multiple HP? For instance plasma is d3 hp, melta is d6hp…
Would also make melta a bit more useful against MCs…
) and wound, if you manage to fail both your 
.
