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 EmpNortonII wrote:
Has anyone seen a video of what the main gun of an M-1 tank can do to another tank?

With Eternal Warrior being handed around like Halloween candy, it seems ridiculous that in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium, everyone and their brother can survive a direct hit to the chest with a 120mm tank round... to say nothing of, say, a rail gun slug or direct orbital bombardment from a Space Marine strike cruiser.

Where's the Grimdarkness of every special snowflake taking the same amount of damage from a tank round as big as his head as from a bolter round to the foot?

Who said it was a direct hit? Who said the 120mm round went through his chest.

Also remember removed from the table does not = dead. Many a soldier is shot, hit by shrapnel, or knocked out, goes down. Takes no further part in the battle, yet is very much alive. That is the essential problem. We think that every one of our toy soldiers we remove from the table is dead. We describe them as dead and killed, yet anyone who has actually seen combat knows that a lot of those who fall on the battlefield later rise to stand again.

EW represents a supernatural ability to never be knocked out of the fight until they are dead, completely, gone. Wounds that would be serious enough to cause most people to just pass out or give up on the fight and wait for a medic do not phase these people.

Now a 120mm round hitting someone, even just in the arm, would probably put them down. It might(probably would) blow the arm clean off or at least make it useless. In that case, 99% of soldiers are just gonna go down. If they arent knocked out, shock will incapacitate them. But you never heard of a soldier continuing the fight for a while with only one arm?

Yeah I don't think you should relate game rules to fluff. Someone made a thread a while back about how strength is stupid because a bloodthrister is like only 4 times stronger than a Gretchen but it should be like 1000 times stronger



You gotta realize that a game needs balance so game mechanics take priority over fluff, otherwise the game would be unplayable.

 changerofways wrote:
Yeah I don't think you should relate game rules to fluff. Someone made a thread a while back about how strength is stupid because a bloodthrister is like only 4 times stronger than a Gretchen but it should be like 1000 times stronger



You gotta realize that a game needs balance so game mechanics take priority over fluff, otherwise the game would be unplayable.

Further evidence is that in WHFB a Blood Thirster would crush an Ogre into paste rather quickly (much like the fluff), but the same two models in Blood Bowl (set in the same universe) are quite well matched.

EDIT: The BT only appears in the PC version of Blood Bowl, so that abstraction is not from GW.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
He might not - depsite the best armour the Imperium can make and a force field he might succumb as this woud be a D weapon ? (I dont have 7th Ed and so not sure if they still wremove people from play?

Going back to the tank analogy - he is bascially a walking super tank anyway - so surviving strikes by AT weapons is possible - plenty of this in history -

It hits as hard as a Tau railgun or one of those Necron arrows. I think there's something about not posting rules on the site.

... at any rate, I've not bumped into any Necron fluff where one of those arrows were used, but I have bumped into Tau fluff stating that a railgun hits an Imperial tank hard enough that the vacuum from the slug passing through will suck the crewmen out of the hole that is much smaller than a full-grown person. Presumably, the same sort of thing would happen to terminator armor. Calgar'd just be a trail of jelly after being hit. Like I said, you can survive shrapnel or a burn or losing a limb. You don't survive being turned into red paste.

He has a Iron Halo - "an energy field that wards against even the most potent enemy weapons

Force shields mean such weapons can just bounce off - like in any other SF universe ?

... and a generic terminator can take an Iron Halo, but doesn't get the same rule. Why?

Generic terminators only have 1 wound... why would Eternal Warrior help them if it only prevents ID?

If you want a reason why certain people have EW, look at their fluff:

Yarrick: The guy is basically too stubborn to die. This trait is not uncommon among truly amazing historical figures either, if you want proof.

Calgar: He leads the Ultramarines, there's your reason. Outside of that the guy has fought some of the most dangerous beings in the galaxy and beaten them, multiple times. Without EW he's just as much of a bitch as a random Chapter Master without the shield eternal.

Draigo: Do I really need to explain this guy?

Seriously, go and just read some fluff, there are hundreds of reasons why certain characters have EW. 40k is all about FORGING THE NARRATIVE, so FORGE A NARRATIVE.

Edit: It's criminal that Dante from my beloved Blood Angels doesn't have EW, but some shiny-armor-wearing-douchebag-angel-spirit does.

 Frankenberry wrote:
If you want a reason why certain people have EW, look at their fluff:

Yarrick: The guy is basically too stubborn to die. This trait is not uncommon among truly amazing historical figures either, if you want proof.

Calgar: He leads the Ultramarines, there's your reason. Outside of that the guy has fought some of the most dangerous beings in the galaxy and beaten them, multiple times. Without EW he's just as much of a bitch as a random Chapter Master without the shield eternal.

Draigo: Do I really need to explain this guy?

Seriously, go and just read some fluff, there are hundreds of reasons why certain characters have EW. 40k is all about FORGING THE NARRATIVE, so FORGE A NARRATIVE.

Edit: It's criminal that Dante from my beloved Blood Angels doesn't have EW, but some shiny-armor-wearing-douchebag-angel-spirit does.

To be more specific, Yarrick was mauled by an ork warboss and Calgar got stomped by a tyranid hive tyrant...twice.

Removed as a casualty means they cannot fight anymore. This could be anything from death to losing a foot to just being knocked unconscious. Simple as that.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
If you want a reason why certain people have EW, look at their fluff:

Yarrick: The guy is basically too stubborn to die. This trait is not uncommon among truly amazing historical figures either, if you want proof.

Calgar: He leads the Ultramarines, there's your reason. Outside of that the guy has fought some of the most dangerous beings in the galaxy and beaten them, multiple times. Without EW he's just as much of a bitch as a random Chapter Master without the shield eternal.

Draigo: Do I really need to explain this guy?

Seriously, go and just read some fluff, there are hundreds of reasons why certain characters have EW. 40k is all about FORGING THE NARRATIVE, so FORGE A NARRATIVE.

Edit: It's criminal that Dante from my beloved Blood Angels doesn't have EW, but some shiny-armor-wearing-douchebag-angel-spirit does.

To be more specific, Yarrick was mauled by an ork warboss

A warboss who is described as hitting like a mag train.

Holy feth.

 troa wrote:
Removed as a casualty means they cannot fight anymore. This could be anything from death to losing a foot to just being knocked unconscious. Simple as that.

Very true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
If you want a reason why certain people have EW, look at their fluff:

Yarrick: The guy is basically too stubborn to die. This trait is not uncommon among truly amazing historical figures either, if you want proof.

Calgar: He leads the Ultramarines, there's your reason. Outside of that the guy has fought some of the most dangerous beings in the galaxy and beaten them, multiple times. Without EW he's just as much of a bitch as a random Chapter Master without the shield eternal.

Draigo: Do I really need to explain this guy?

Seriously, go and just read some fluff, there are hundreds of reasons why certain characters have EW. 40k is all about FORGING THE NARRATIVE, so FORGE A NARRATIVE.

Edit: It's criminal that Dante from my beloved Blood Angels doesn't have EW, but some shiny-armor-wearing-douchebag-angel-spirit does.

To be more specific, Yarrick was mauled by an ork warboss

A warboss who is described as hitting like a mag train.

Holy feth.

Yup, and that man still walks

and some certain awesome dude who stand and fight the imperium and armies of emprah even WITHOUT HIS ARMS

glorious, impressive, totally deserved a EW, I'd say.

 sqrt4 wrote:
and some certain awesome dude who stand and fight the imperium and armies of emprah even WITHOUT HIS ARMS

glorious, impressive, totally deserved a EW, I'd say.

Hmm, I wonder who that is

try google [armless failure] if you wish to know more about the most glorious warmaster of chaos undivided

 sqrt4 wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 sqrt4 wrote:
and some certain awesome dude who stand and fight the imperium and armies of emprah even WITHOUT HIS ARMS

glorious, impressive, totally deserved a EW, I'd say.

Hmm, I wonder who that is

try google [armless failure]

Abaddon the armless of course haha

 troa wrote:
Removed as a casualty means they cannot fight anymore. This could be anything from death to losing a foot to just being knocked unconscious. Simple as that.

Aye. And not everyone with Eternal Warrior tanks hits like a, well, tank... Ghazgkhull probably does but he's an ork protected by the ork gods. A hit might well blow a hole in him and he just doesn't care, or it bounces off his adamantium skull. Calgar is the kind of guy who sees a railgun and immediately gets into cover, any cover - he survives the hit by not being directly hit. The lost wound is from the blast of the projectile going past him, or maybe represents his autosenses being knocked out by the near miss. And so on.

EW should not have been extended beyond the Phoenix Lords (where it is a case of no wound incapacitation due to the 'matter' they are made of).

Space Marines being still biological creatures need fleshy bits and matter to move.

I think it's the designers being precious about Calgar and so on.

 Daba wrote:
EW should not have been extended beyond the Phoenix Lords (where it is a case of no wound incapacitation due to the 'matter' they are made of).

Would also make sense for daemons. Oh, wait, they do not have it anymore!

 Exergy wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Has anyone seen a video of what the main gun of an M-1 tank can do to another tank?

With Eternal Warrior being handed around like Halloween candy, it seems ridiculous that in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium, everyone and their brother can survive a direct hit to the chest with a 120mm tank round... to say nothing of, say, a rail gun slug or direct orbital bombardment from a Space Marine strike cruiser.

Where's the Grimdarkness of every special snowflake taking the same amount of damage from a tank round as big as his head as from a bolter round to the foot?

Who said it was a direct hit? Who said the 120mm round went through his chest.

Also remember removed from the table does not = dead. Many a soldier is shot, hit by shrapnel, or knocked out, goes down. Takes no further part in the battle, yet is very much alive. That is the essential problem. We think that every one of our toy soldiers we remove from the table is dead. We describe them as dead and killed, yet anyone who has actually seen combat knows that a lot of those who fall on the battlefield later rise to stand again.

EW represents a supernatural ability to never be knocked out of the fight until they are dead, completely, gone. Wounds that would be serious enough to cause most people to just pass out or give up on the fight and wait for a medic do not phase these people.

Now a 120mm round hitting someone, even just in the arm, would probably put them down. It might(probably would) blow the arm clean off or at least make it useless. In that case, 99% of soldiers are just gonna go down. If they arent knocked out, shock will incapacitate them. But you never heard of a soldier continuing the fight for a while with only one arm?

It's a direct hit when you center the template on the special snowflake and roll a direct hit on the scatter dice... or when you roll a 6 with your Hammerhead (extra points if you took the armory item that allows it to snipe special characters)... I'm not sure the 'Cron arrow even has to roll.

Besides, the question of the thread isn't about being hit by shrapnel or pushing on despite a wound... it's why Calgar doesn't die when, if forging a narrative, when something that rips tanks apart like a hot knife through butter makes a direct hit.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Daba wrote:
EW should not have been extended beyond the Phoenix Lords (where it is a case of no wound incapacitation due to the 'matter' they are made of).

Would also make sense for daemons. Oh, wait, they do not have it anymore!

Yes.

The problem is Force weapons still have their stupid junk rule from 3rd edition that persists and makes NO sense.

They can now even return since they have psyker mastery levels back. They can make it Strength + Mastery and if they want, ignore Daemon saves and store Warp Charges in them. They could also revert Witchblades to being better Force Swords like they should be.

But they didn't.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Daba wrote:
EW should not have been extended beyond the Phoenix Lords (where it is a case of no wound incapacitation due to the 'matter' they are made of).

Would also make sense for daemons. Oh, wait, they do not have it anymore!

Again- different thing. EW is about being able to take repeated abuse from weapons that take down Land Raiders, not about being able to rematerialize after being hit by said weapons (unless that rematerialization can happen on a battlefield in the middle of a fight).

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Again- different thing. EW is about being able to take repeated abuse from weapons that take down Land Raiders, not about being able to rematerialize after being hit by said weapons (unless that rematerialization can happen on a battlefield in the middle of a fight).

You are missing the point. Daemons are not material. Therefore, they are affected by material attacks in strange ways. Nothing material could survive a direct hit from certain big weapons, but since daemons are not material, maybe the most powerful could. It might only cause them to loose some of their grip on reality.
I mean, when normal physical weapon shoot at normal physical stuff, the rules of physics are supposed to apply. You could add a bit of applied phlebotinum, but it is still going to be physics. When normal physical weapons shoot at creature made of space magic energy, what happens is not ruled by the laws of physics, but by the laws of space magic vs physical stuff interactions. Those laws are completely made up, and were never even formalized too much, so it would make sense for them to allow strange stuff like daemons being able to tank über-weapons, and then dying to a grot using a slingshot.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Again- different thing. EW is about being able to take repeated abuse from weapons that take down Land Raiders, not about being able to rematerialize after being hit by said weapons (unless that rematerialization can happen on a battlefield in the middle of a fight).

You are missing the point. Daemons are not material. Therefore, they are affected by material attacks in strange ways. Nothing material could survive a direct hit from certain big weapons, but since daemons are not material, maybe the most powerful could. It might only cause them to loose some of their grip on reality.
I mean, when normal physical weapon shoot at normal physical stuff, the rules of physics are supposed to apply. You could add a bit of applied phlebotinum, but it is still going to be physics. When normal physical weapons shoot at creature made of space magic energy, what happens is not ruled by the laws of physics, but by the laws of space magic vs physical stuff interactions. Those laws are completely made up, and were never even formalized too much, so it would make sense for them to allow strange stuff like daemons being able to tank über-weapons, and then dying to a grot using a slingshot.

Um... things that aren't material can't interact with the material world. Daemons have to materialize in this world to affect it. Otherwise, a bloodthirster would just put his foot down and pass through the Space Marine he tried to squish. Daemons become physical to enter our universe.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Um... things that aren't material can't interact with the material world. Daemons have to materialize in this world to affect it. Otherwise, a bloodthirster would just put his foot down and pass through the Space Marine he tried to squish. Daemons become physical to enter our universe.

They don't necessarily abide by the laws of physics though. They are constantly flowing with Warp energy. The idea of damaging them without specifically designed or blessed weaponry being somewhat random fits in my opinion. I preferred the idea of them all having Eternal Warrior.

I heard that in Know No Fear fighting in melee was noted to do disproportionate damage to Daemons. Symbolism would be important against beings formed from emotion and belief.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Has anyone seen a video of what the main gun of an M-1 tank can do to another tank?

With Eternal Warrior being handed around like Halloween candy, it seems ridiculous that in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium, everyone and their brother can survive a direct hit to the chest with a 120mm tank round... to say nothing of, say, a rail gun slug or direct orbital bombardment from a Space Marine strike cruiser.

Where's the Grimdarkness of every special snowflake taking the same amount of damage from a tank round as big as his head as from a bolter round to the foot?

Who said it was a direct hit? Who said the 120mm round went through his chest.

Also remember removed from the table does not = dead. Many a soldier is shot, hit by shrapnel, or knocked out, goes down. Takes no further part in the battle, yet is very much alive. That is the essential problem. We think that every one of our toy soldiers we remove from the table is dead. We describe them as dead and killed, yet anyone who has actually seen combat knows that a lot of those who fall on the battlefield later rise to stand again.

EW represents a supernatural ability to never be knocked out of the fight until they are dead, completely, gone. Wounds that would be serious enough to cause most people to just pass out or give up on the fight and wait for a medic do not phase these people.

Now a 120mm round hitting someone, even just in the arm, would probably put them down. It might(probably would) blow the arm clean off or at least make it useless. In that case, 99% of soldiers are just gonna go down. If they arent knocked out, shock will incapacitate them. But you never heard of a soldier continuing the fight for a while with only one arm?

It's a direct hit when you center the template on the special snowflake and roll a direct hit on the scatter dice... or when you roll a 6 with your Hammerhead (extra points if you took the armory item that allows it to snipe special characters)... I'm not sure the 'Cron arrow even has to roll.

It's a direct hit with your template, great. Why is it you are capable of rolling a 1 and failing to wound. The issue is that there is no "direct hit" in the game. Hitting a moving human in the head or chest is much much more difficult than hitting some other part of the body, or otherwise hitting something near them that will cause enough shrapnel/debris to bring them down. The rules of the game are for that separate, hitting them somewhere or causing enough of a shockwave/debris/shrapnel to bring them down.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Besides, the question of the thread isn't about being hit by shrapnel or pushing on despite a wound... it's why Calgar doesn't die when, if forging a narrative, when something that rips tanks apart like a hot knife through butter makes a direct hit.

You mean like a melta gun within 6" that rolls a glorious 20 to pen and then half the time does not turn said tank to butter but instead only immobilizes it or blows off a storm bolter.

Hit does not equal direct hit.




If you want to forge your narrative, come up with ways to describe all possible things that can happen, not merely fantastically lucky, direct hits that gut people.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Um... things that aren't material can't interact with the material world. Daemons have to materialize in this world to affect it. Otherwise, a bloodthirster would just put his foot down and pass through the Space Marine he tried to squish. Daemons become physical to enter our universe.

They don't necessarily abide by the laws of physics though. They are constantly flowing with Warp energy. The idea of damaging them without specifically designed or blessed weaponry being somewhat random fits in my opinion. I preferred the idea of them all having Eternal Warrior.

I heard that in Know No Fear fighting in melee was noted to do disproportionate damage to Daemons. Symbolism would be important against beings formed from emotion and belief.

Being able to shrug off the occasional weapon randomly is what an Invulnerable Save is. If something is stopped by the daemon phasing in and out of reality or ignoring physics, that's making its Invuln save. EW only comes into play when something hits you full on.

 Exergy wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Has anyone seen a video of what the main gun of an M-1 tank can do to another tank?

With Eternal Warrior being handed around like Halloween candy, it seems ridiculous that in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium, everyone and their brother can survive a direct hit to the chest with a 120mm tank round... to say nothing of, say, a rail gun slug or direct orbital bombardment from a Space Marine strike cruiser.

Where's the Grimdarkness of every special snowflake taking the same amount of damage from a tank round as big as his head as from a bolter round to the foot?

Who said it was a direct hit? Who said the 120mm round went through his chest.

Also remember removed from the table does not = dead. Many a soldier is shot, hit by shrapnel, or knocked out, goes down. Takes no further part in the battle, yet is very much alive. That is the essential problem. We think that every one of our toy soldiers we remove from the table is dead. We describe them as dead and killed, yet anyone who has actually seen combat knows that a lot of those who fall on the battlefield later rise to stand again.

EW represents a supernatural ability to never be knocked out of the fight until they are dead, completely, gone. Wounds that would be serious enough to cause most people to just pass out or give up on the fight and wait for a medic do not phase these people.

Now a 120mm round hitting someone, even just in the arm, would probably put them down. It might(probably would) blow the arm clean off or at least make it useless. In that case, 99% of soldiers are just gonna go down. If they arent knocked out, shock will incapacitate them. But you never heard of a soldier continuing the fight for a while with only one arm?

It's a direct hit when you center the template on the special snowflake and roll a direct hit on the scatter dice... or when you roll a 6 with your Hammerhead (extra points if you took the armory item that allows it to snipe special characters)... I'm not sure the 'Cron arrow even has to roll.

It's a direct hit with your template, great. Why is it you are capable of rolling a 1 and failing to wound. The issue is that there is no "direct hit" in the game. Hitting a moving human in the head or chest is much much more difficult than hitting some other part of the body, or otherwise hitting something near them that will cause enough shrapnel/debris to bring them down. The rules of the game are for that separate, hitting them somewhere or causing enough of a shockwave/debris/shrapnel to bring them down.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Besides, the question of the thread isn't about being hit by shrapnel or pushing on despite a wound... it's why Calgar doesn't die when, if forging a narrative, when something that rips tanks apart like a hot knife through butter makes a direct hit.

You mean like a melta gun within 6" that rolls a glorious 20 to pen and then half the time does not turn said tank to butter but instead only immobilizes it or blows off a storm bolter.

Hit does not equal direct hit.




If you want to forge your narrative, come up with ways to describe all possible things that can happen, not merely fantastically lucky, direct hits that gut people.

So... if that chance of luck to barely get hit is in the game, via the 1 on the roll to wound, why do we need it again? Besides, EW isn't "this character is less likely to die in the case of the worst-case scenario." It is "the worst-case scenario for being hit by a Guardsman's laspistol and being hit by an orbital bombardment are THE EXACT SAME." That sounds more noblebright than grimdark.

(Of course, the same argument can be made against the widespread number of T6 MCs running around... but it is slightly less ridiculous for a 20-foot tall monster or battlesuit to shrug off a head-sized hole in it compared to, say, Calgar or Yarrick faring the same against the same weapon).

Have you, by chance, played WW2 Online? I actually like the vehicle damage table, because it reminds me of that. The first roll is "Did the gunner hit the target?" The second roll is "Was the shot turned aside by the armor?" The third roll, then, is "When that shot punched through the armor, did it hit something inside that will hurt the vehicle?" A vehicle is knocked out when the crew die... after all, if your shot when straight through and missed a weapon system, the crew, fuel (if flammable), ammunition (if flammable), AND the engine, then it doesn't matter that your shot went through the tank? Unless, of course, fluff indicates otherwise, which it does at least in the case of a Tau railgun.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Um... things that aren't material can't interact with the material world.

Guess it depends what you call material. But I am pretty sure daemons “flesh” do not react like mundane matter would.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Being able to shrug off the occasional weapon randomly is what an Invulnerable Save is. If something is stopped by the daemon phasing in and out of reality or ignoring physics, that's making its Invuln save. EW only comes into play when something hits you full on.

Good point. I still like the concept of the big guns not really being much more effective though. In terms of actual damage to a stronger Daemon, anyway.

 Exergy wrote:
Who said it was a direct hit? Who said the 120mm round went through his chest.

This. We don't even have to look to rules like EW to see ludicrously overpowered weapons having no effect...anything less than D strength has a 1 in 6 chance to just do nothing. I think it's best to just rationalize those as near misses. The railgun slug (or whatever) passed only a couple inches away from their body...close enough that it looked like a hit, but sheer luck meant that it missed by the slightest margin. The demolisher shell landed dead on, but a quirk in the terrain protected the target from the brunt of the blast.

Eternal Warrior exists to keep the heroes of the galaxy from dying like any jane schmoe. As mentioned earlier, it's the game mechanic answer to Plot Armour.

Except in the case of daemons and phoenix lords, in which case it's more literal - their bodies are gakky messes of immortal soul, so they kind of react weirdly to material effects.

 Talizvar wrote:
Depends on at what point you could imagine how they "survived".

To hit: solid hit vs. grazing but still a hit.

Wound: Chest-head shot vs. arm / leg / backpack hit vs. regenerative / reinforced bodies / medical dispensing.

Armor: Blast Protection: Hardened/inflexible/interior padding / full body covering vs. Small Arms: flexible / targeted plates.

Cover / Invulnerable saves: You can't see me!, shot pre-detonates hitting a branch, energy field deflects it just enough, it is magic!!!

"Forge your own narrative" of how a standard guard manages to survive a main cannon shot: just barely far enough away for the armor to absorb the blast and ragdoll far enough away to avoid the heat and only broke an arm landing! Good to go! (Plus the Commissar was watching...).

If you want more realism in your shooting results go look up some Rolemaster (ICE product) charts or use the concept of "Megadamage" from Palladium (you will regret it however...).

Disliking Mega-Damage from a 40K-er??? Heresy! Mega-Damage is the epitome of MORE DAKKA! And the ICE crit charts are a wonder to behold...and the ones from the old WHFRP were pretty nice as well.

-STS