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 Furyou Miko wrote:
Eternal Warrior exists to keep the heroes of the galaxy from dying like any jane schmoe. As mentioned earlier, it's the game mechanic answer to Plot Armour.

Except in the case of daemons and phoenix lords, in which case it's more literal - their bodies are gakky messes of immortal soul, so they kind of react weirdly to material effects.

It's not an answer to PlotArmor... it *IS* PlotArmor, in the worst possible way.

It is a way to balance the game, to prevent your 300 point melee powerhouse from being oneshotted by a 40 point IG lascannon team.

However, your 300 point melee powerhouse *should* be able to be one-shotted by a 40-point IG lascannon team.

That is what lascannons do. They are anti-tank weapons.

That's Grimdark, when your massive, Heroic Warrior-God gets taken out by three nameless dudes with an anti-tank cannon.

 Psienesis wrote:
However, your 300 point melee powerhouse *should* be able to be one-shotted by a 40-point IG lascannon team.

That is what lascannons do. They are anti-tank weapons.

That's Grimdark, when your massive, Heroic Warrior-God gets taken out by three nameless dudes with an anti-tank cannon.

Un/fortunately, the game is not balanced with Grimdark in mind.

 Ashiraya wrote:
It is a way to balance the game, to prevent your 300 point melee powerhouse from being oneshotted by a 40 point IG lascannon team.

I would not see any problem there. If you put your 300 point melee powerhouse in the front of your unit, if the lascannon team is able to roll high enough to hit (with BS3 ) and wound, if you manage to fail both your LoS and invulnerable save, then I guess you somehow deserve to have lost your melee powerhouse. Next time he will not be at the front of the unit, with a big sign pointing to his/her head saying "Shoot me here, I do not have a helmet" .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
It is a way to balance the game, to prevent your 300 point melee powerhouse from being oneshotted by a 40 point IG lascannon team.

I would not see any problem there. If you put your 300 point melee powerhouse in the front of your unit, if the lascannon team is able to roll high enough to hit (with BS3 ) and wound, if you manage to fail both your LoS and invulnerable save, then I guess you somehow deserve to have lost your melee powerhouse. Next time he will not be at the front of the unit, with a big sign pointing to his/her head saying "Shoot me here, I do not have a helmet" .

There's also melee.

 Psienesis wrote:
However, your 300 point melee powerhouse *should* be able to be one-shotted by a 40-point IG lascannon team.

That is what lascannons do. They are anti-tank weapons.

That's Grimdark, when your massive, Heroic Warrior-God gets taken out by three nameless dudes with an anti-tank cannon.

Gotta admit though, it is a little disappointing when Abaddon or Lysander just drop.

 Selym wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
However, your 300 point melee powerhouse *should* be able to be one-shotted by a 40-point IG lascannon team.

That is what lascannons do. They are anti-tank weapons.

That's Grimdark, when your massive, Heroic Warrior-God gets taken out by three nameless dudes with an anti-tank cannon.

Gotta admit though, it is a little disappointing when Abaddon or Lysander just drop.

I second that.

It's developers being precious about their special characters. The concept of 300 point characters dying to a lot less in one go is common in other games, even past 40k.

I mean, in Infinity, the special characters don't get more wounds than their unit type gets (so a light infantry one would get 1W, similar or same armour to a standard trooper of his type). And even the biggest, baddest dudes like the Avatar can die to a single lucky Missile Launcher hit, or if he trips a monofilament mine.

I mean, even in 2nd edition 40k, most infantry commanders could be one-shot by a heavy bolter, and a Lascannon could (with a bit of luck) one-shot a Bloodthirster or Avatar.

 Daba wrote:
It's developers being precious about their special characters. The concept of 300 point characters dying to a lot less in one go is common in other games, even past 40k.
I mean, in Infinity, the special characters don't get more wounds than their unit type gets (so a light infantry one would get 1W, similar or same armour to a standard trooper of his type). And even the biggest, baddest dudes like the Avatar can die to a single lucky Missile Launcher hit, or if he trips a monofilament mine.
I mean, even in 2nd edition 40k, most infantry commanders could be one-shot by a heavy bolter, and a Lascannon could (with a bit of luck) one-shot a Bloodthirster or Avatar.

I remember an RPG game (think it was "James Bond") that had the concept of "hero points" which a similar mechanic is used in Lord of the Rings.
Something to add or subtract to a dice roll or change it's result to prevent at least the first "one shot kill" of a unique character model may be in order.
The Lysander and Abbadon getting dropped in an "un-epic" way does appear bothersome.

RPGs are a little different to tabletop battle games though.

 Ashiraya wrote:
There's also melee.

Guardsmen in melee will at best have S6, using a power fist. I do not think there is any 300 points melee powerhouse without T4. Maybe some dark eldar are that expensive?
They would still be susceptible to walkers and MC. But then again, the big huge giant thing having an advantage over the tiny little man seems logic.

Basically it's Dark Eldar but the only EW in their book is one of the few models that actually justifies it (basically a Phoenix Lord). And he's T4 anyway.

Why are we discussing things tha shood happen in reality or logic ?, Gork and Mork protect my Ghazghkul from eny rail gun and such or warp it self chews and spits your D weapon spears or rokkits. It's like discussing Jesus walking on watter in my opinion and I love it !

 Daba wrote:
Basically it's Dark Eldar but the only EW in their book is one of the few models that actually justifies it (basically a Phoenix Lord). And he's T4 anyway.

Vect is nearly 300 points and T3. And he does not deserve EW. If he gets scratched badly he is gonna quit the fight and retreat home or teleport out. One wound from str6+ and he will be removed from the tabletop. He wont be dead maybe, but he certainly isnt going to continue to fight.

Lelith is more like 200 points and also T3. Also doesnt deserve EW. Apparently she fights in gladiator combat constantly and never suffers a scratch. EW no, unhittable yes.

Someone who certainly does deserve EW, despite being a puny human, is (as mentioned earlier) Yarrick.

Gets hit by a mag-train-equivalent, and just comes back for more!

Also, Yarrick regularly displays feats of badassery that makes even SM's feel inadequate.

 Selym wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
However, your 300 point melee powerhouse *should* be able to be one-shotted by a 40-point IG lascannon team.

That is what lascannons do. They are anti-tank weapons.

That's Grimdark, when your massive, Heroic Warrior-God gets taken out by three nameless dudes with an anti-tank cannon.

Gotta admit though, it is a little disappointing when Abaddon or Lysander just drop.

GrimDark should be disappointing, from the perspective of the "hero" faction most especially. Your every victory should be Pyrrhic. Your only dream to die well. Your only hope to delay the inevitable by one more day that you're alive.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
However, your 300 point melee powerhouse *should* be able to be one-shotted by a 40-point IG lascannon team.

That is what lascannons do. They are anti-tank weapons.

That's Grimdark, when your massive, Heroic Warrior-God gets taken out by three nameless dudes with an anti-tank cannon.

Gotta admit though, it is a little disappointing when Abaddon or Lysander just drop.

GrimDark should be disappointing, from the perspective of the "hero" faction most especially. Your every victory should be Pyrrhic. Your only dream to die well. Your only hope to delay the inevitable by one more day that you're alive.

False, your only dream is blissfulness.....

Btw, Chaos can help you with that! Come see us soon!

 changerofways wrote:
Yeah I don't think you should relate game rules to fluff.

You gotta realize that a game needs balance so game mechanics take priority over fluff, otherwise the game would be unplayable.

Are we still talking about 40K?

 Vermis wrote:

 changerofways wrote:
Yeah I don't think you should relate game rules to fluff.

You gotta realize that a game needs balance so game mechanics take priority over fluff, otherwise the game would be unplayable.

Are we still talking about 40K?

It sounds like he's talking about some kind of obscure as-yet-unheard-of franchise.

I think EW isn't the big offender here. Which is T5 multiwound infantry models such as Ogryns, which are immune to Instant Death from anti-tank missiles. Which is quite ridiculous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Personally I don't think anything made of meat that isn't a monstrous creature should have a Toughness higher than 4.

I hope everyone arguing against EW realizes just how much cheaper melee Characters who currently have EW would have to become in order to still be viable choices?

Further, regarding the lascannon example, Calgar, Lysander, Abaddon or anyone else in Terminator Armour (or Mega Armour, for that matter) could easily take a hit from a lascannon and keep going. They're supposed to have comparable armour to heavy tanks and, in the case of Terminator Armour, was specifically designed to diffuse heat efficiently. It's like trying to kill someone named Prism-man with a Lasgun.

As a final note, I for one would be grateful if we stopped the damn "special snowflake" thingie already. The only thing it does is throw gak at people who disagree with your opinions. It's condescending and rude, which doesn't lead to honest debate.

Alcibiades wrote:
I think EW isn't the big offender here. Which is T5 multiwound infantry models such as Ogryns, which are immune to Instant Death from anti-tank missiles. Which is quite ridiculous.

Personally I don't think anything made of meat that isn't a monstrous creature should have a Toughness higher than 4.

So consider an elephant. Not above natural toughness, but large. Assume it gets hit by an anti tank gun. Would all hits lead to it's immidiate death? No. A shot to the head sure, a shot to some parts of its body might, but most shots would just go right through and while it might eventually kill it it would not immediately kill it.


I think the problem is not EW, it's the ID mechanic. Instead of just S double T, it should be something like if strength is 2 or more higher than toughness, then on a 6 to wound inflict ID. If S it double T, then on a 5 or 6 inflict ID. If strength is 5 higher than toughness then on a 4,5, or 6 inflict ID.


A hit is just a hit, it depends where the hit is and should have something to do with the wound mechanic. Not all wounds, even from incredibly nasty weapons will outright kill any lifeform.

Personally I think EW is too rare a thing. I recognize that 40k is a game written on a HUGE SCALE, but part of the charm of it, for me, is that the individuals have a lot of character. They're larger than life.

Adrubael Vect is a 20,000 year old psychic vampire Machiavelli-meets-Hattori-Hanzo. But an autocannon team takes him out? Lame.

Kharn is a 10,000 year old veteran of some of the bloodiest and most epic conflicts in the entire galaxy. I don't want a scout with a missile launcher blowing him up.

So consider an elephant. Not above natural toughness, but large. Assume it gets hit by an anti tank gun. Would all hits lead to it's immidiate death? No. A shot to the head sure, a shot to some parts of its body might, but most shots would just go right through and while it might eventually kill it it would not immediately kill it.

Ehmm... yeah... no.

An actual anti-tank munition would pretty much obliterate (in a spectacularly messy fashion) an elephant, no matter where you hit it. If it wasn't killed by the massive damage to its body and organs, shock and traumatic exsanguination would probably pretty much insta-gib it.

Let us remember that an elephant gun is not an anti-tank weapon. A shoulder-fired missile launcher, however, is. As is a 75mm recoilless rifle. That's a *big* bullet, that is, also, HEAT (High Explosive Anti Tank). They pierce 100mm of steel armor, which is *far* tougher than any elephant.

An elephant can (and does) survive (and sometimes even ignores) hits from pretty much any small-arm. That's why they are hunted with high-calibre rifles by guys who know what they're doing (and using helicopters, in case they only manage to piss it off). But if you go elephant hunting with a missile launcher, you pretty much have it in the bag (though bring a shovel to claim your elephant bits),

Calgar isn't going to survive a hit from a Strike Cruiser. Not in the current rules anyway.

He doesn't get any saves against StrD, and is taking at minimum D3+3 wounds unless a 1 is rolled. D6+6 if a 6 is rolled.

He will survive a direct hit from a lascannon because, even if he fails his invuln save, the combination of the save existing, his sheer durability, and the durability of Terminator armor, means that it won't kill him.

And remember that a direct hit doesn't always mean a direct hit. I'd wager that very few of the people killed by the main gun on a tank or artillery were actually directly hit by it. Those weapons kill by the explosion they cause, not by actually hitting an individual target. If you have armor which protects from the blast, like TDA or PA or a force field would, then you'd be pretty safe unless you were directly hit. Any inconsistencies can be dismissed by game abstraction.

It would be pretty silly for one of the greatest warriors ever to exist to die from a single lucky lascannon shot too.

It would be pretty silly for one of the greatest warriors ever to exist to die from a single lucky lascannon shot too.

And yet, there was Stonewall Jackson...

 Psienesis wrote:

It would be pretty silly for one of the greatest warriors ever to exist to die from a single lucky lascannon shot too.

And yet, there was Stonewall Jackson...

Yes, but Stonewall Jackson didn't wear the equivalent of a main battle tank, have the benefit intense genetic engineering, or have defensive force fields created by technology bordering on magic.

Neither does Yarrick. Or Creed. Or Marbo.

None of those guys have EW IIRC.