The Las Vegas Open has come and gone and what an incredible event, it was!
We had more fun than I think is legal, and the vibe of the event was one of camaraderie, laughter, and general enthusiasm. Everyone was smiling, and enjoying themselves, which was what we aim to see.There's more to say than I can recap in one shot, but we have some write-ups linked to below for your viewing pleasure!
Yeah, it is sudden, haha, but we plan on just rolling from event to another now as we actually have had Vegas in the works for 6 months, now. We were just waiting to start promoting it until after BAO =)
The wife and I have to decide to attend either the BAO or LVO...
I really wanted to go to BAO, in part because afterwards we could drive to visit home in Monterey, but alas the military had plans for me this year...my concern with the LVO is that its probably not too kid friendly, but the next BAO is so long away.
There is a lot of stuff for them to do, they try to appeal to the entire family. While I won't say it's Disneyland by any means, there is a lot going on that youngsters would enjoy.
Of all the strip casinos the flamingo has the best kids pool with slides connecting different levels of the pool with a waterfall cave. Of course there are drinks being served by hot young girls in tiny red bikinis, but I took the risk and the kids had a great time.
After being a part of the BAO, I can honestly say frontline runs a very good event so anyone that can go should go!
As far as the LVO next year, I wish I could go but I will be taking the California bar exam that following week so I won't be able to make it :(. Good luck to all of the future attendees and here's to hopefully making the BAO at least!
Nat and I are sad we can't make the LVO this year, especially since we really like staying at the Flamingo. Sadly that Friday is a mandatory in-service at work and with the 40kGT starting on Friday there is just no way I can swing it
If you are anywhere near on the fence about going, go. It was amazing last year and I can only imagine how much better it will be this year at the new venue! Good luck Reece.
Reece, I was curious if there was going to be any swag for the participants? A buddy of mine went to BAO and mentioned there wasn't much in the way of souvenirs from the tournament itself (as a cost saving measure if I were to guess). Objective tokens or relic tokens would be a cool takeaway from the event. I understand this will raise the cost so you might not have them there to make the tourney affordable. It would be cool if we could buy them while we were there (and potentially use them for our games) and have something cool to show off in local games. (they could be poker chips! How awesome and appropriate would that be for vegas?!)
OverwatchCNC wrote: Nat and I are sad we can't make the LVO this year, especially since we really like staying at the Flamingo. Sadly that Friday is a mandatory in-service at work and with the 40kGT starting on Friday there is just no way I can swing it
Booooooooooooooooooooo !
Get a real job that doesn't interfere with 40k! The Education profession sucks!
...
That said, I'll be getting my room shortly.
Cant wait to see you there Casey. In your room I mean.
Hmm. I believe the requisite come-back for this is something like, "Yeah, where your g/f will be ... in my room, I mean."
I dunno, though. Sounds kinda mean spirited and not overly clever. Eh. I'll work on something better and get back to you in February.
edit:
This is better. I'll modify a line from Ian 'Dark Eldar' Loch: "Sure, Cooper, you're welcome anytime, and like always, you can be small spoon."
Warmonger2757 wrote: Reece, I was curious if there was going to be any swag for the participants? A buddy of mine went to BAO and mentioned there wasn't much in the way of souvenirs from the tournament itself (as a cost saving measure if I were to guess). Objective tokens or relic tokens would be a cool takeaway from the event. I understand this will raise the cost so you might not have them there to make the tourney affordable. It would be cool if we could buy them while we were there (and potentially use them for our games) and have something cool to show off in local games. (they could be poker chips! How awesome and appropriate would that be for vegas?!)
We actually did hand out numbered objective markers with cool images on the flip side to all the 40K attendees this year! Maybe he didn't get one?
But yeah, we will have some sweet swag to hand out for sure, and we will have shirts, pint glasses, objective markers, etc. all for sale this year, no doubt!
@thread
Our hotel block is already 30% booked, holy smokes!
Hey Reece, I know its a bit early but (Well so is this thread tbh xD) but around what point level do you think is going to be used for the 40k tournament? I just want to to know because I know that I'm going to need some new models to bring my Gk up to par. I have a few list already pre-made but the models required are all completely different in correspondence to points level, so it would be nice to know so that I can start getting the models painted up and lookin all pretty
Got my tournament tickets, my hotel reservations, just waiting for some more cash for my flight. Time to figure out what I want to bring to the table for the GT. Any other cool things going on that weekend like last time? Beerhammer going to make a comeback?
Also finally picked up an alpine mat to match my daemons, so the ice bases don't look dumb on the grassy plains anymore haha.
It looks like you are allowing the 2 sources to be a CAD plus a codex specific detachment. So for instance, my two souces could be an Ork CAD and an Ork Hoarde detachment for 5 HQ selections, and 6 elite selections. I thought Codex Specific Detachments were going to count as a CAD.
Yeah, we are gong with a straight up 2 detachments of your choice, can be any combo thereof, no repeated detachments. So yes, you can go Ork CAD and Ork Horde if you choose to.
@Von_Hammer
Nice one, see you there!
@Thread
Holy crap, 40K champs over 25% sold out in less than 24 hours!! I haven't even had a chance to send out the email notification, either.
DO NOT WAIT to get your 40K champs ticket, it looks like it is going to be a sell out in short order.
When do you anticipate the new room block to get sold out? I need to get my rooms still, but am trying to hold out for a little while. Would there be an issue waiting a few months or not?
That is mostly true except for Las Vegas where normally they require the full payment at the time of booking. You are free to cancel up until 72 hours prior to arrival for a full refund though.
I think they want payment ahead of time just in case you go broke in Vegas.
That is mostly true except for Las Vegas where normally they require the full payment at the time of booking. You are free to cancel up until 72 hours prior to arrival for a full refund though.
I think they want payment ahead of time just in case you go broke in Vegas.
It depends on the hotel but Allan is more or less correct. Natalie and I stay at the Flamingo 90% of the time we go to Vegas and they charge the full amount on Check In. Last year for the LVO Ballys charged us the whole thing up front at time of booking. It just depends on the hotel but the rules tend to be much different in Vegas due to the fact it's one of the few travel destinations in the US where hotels have to worry about their guests losing all their money before paying for the hotel.
oddworx wrote: I got mine! Looking forward to winning Beerhammer again! Or did I lose? Did I even go to LVO last year? *sips Bud Light Platinum thoughfully*
Beerhammer is a game of 40K where you use empty beer cans as impassible terrain that you can place as soon as you finish drinking them. Someone about to charge you? Denied!
It's super fun, and super ridiculous, purely played for laughs.
Reecius wrote: Cooper is a professional partier, just to warn you all!
There's a punchline here, dammit, and I just can't find it.
Lightweight something, Cooper & Reece are big guys, something. Cooper tried to persuade-me-in-person-to-go. Can't keep up with a 3+ range of different kinds of drinks environment. Shopping carts and doorbells. Carried like a football. Handicap for weight, blah blah blah.
Etc.
Damn it, Reece. I'd rather play you and get tabled than have to wrestle with a great set up line like this ... and fail to spike it. Hell, I'd rather play Adam Gati and lose on Turn 7 than flub a punch line with a set up like this.
Okay, no, I'd rather not play Adam.
Still, way to be a jerk, Reece. Only thing worse would be if you told me if scotch won't be allowed as a Beer Hammer proxy. ... Since it'd be from the UK, would it count as Forge World?
Reecius wrote: Cooper is a professional partier, just to warn you all!
There's a punchline here, dammit, and I just can't find it.
Lightweight something, Cooper & Reece are big guys, something. Cooper tried to persuade-me-in-person-to-go. Can't keep up with a 3+ range of different kinds of drinks environment. Shopping carts and doorbells. Carried like a football. Handicap for weight, blah blah blah.
Etc.
Damn it, Reece. I'd rather play you and get tabled than have to wrestle with a great set up line like this ... and fail to spike it. Hell, I'd rather play Adam Gati and lose on Turn 7 than flub a punch line with a set up like this.
Okay, no, I'd rather not play Adam.
Still, way to be a jerk, Reece. Only thing worse would be if you told me if scotch won't be allowed as a Beer Hammer proxy. ... Since it'd be from the UK, would it count as Forge World?
So much awesome for one post. I exalted and then also felt like I should press the yellow triangle of friendship too.
Beerhammer is a game of 40K where you use empty beer cans as impassible terrain that you can place as soon as you finish drinking them. Someone about to charge you? Denied!
It's super fun, and super ridiculous, purely played for laughs.
My Beer hammer games write up 2014:
Game 1: Move models shot stuff played a 40k game as usual and drank 9 beers and used them all since me and my opponent agreed we could use as many as we drank.
Game 2: Moved all models to objectives never shot anything or assaulted anything and dropped enough beers to kill or keep models locked behind impassable until the game was over.
If I play Beerhammer, there's a distinct possibility that I may not make it to gaming on Day #2....but sometimes, you've just got to take a chance.....
I must be the only one that got charged at room booking. Wasn't expecting it from the comments in this thread. Called and was told even if I cancelled the reservation it was like 3-5 business days for a refund. booo 30$ bounced check charge because of it lol.
On the plus I guess I'll see everyone in Vegas in a few months?
No deals on flight unfortunately, no. We would have to book as a group which would take more coordination than we have at this point in time, but, I can look into it for future events.
40K champs only has about 40 tickets left! We're well over 200, do not wait!
The room block has only a handful of cheapo rooms left!
Darkwynn wrote: Will JY dodge me again by drinking too much?
Interesting. I heard a game with Darkwynn was only enjoyable while drunk. ;-) Of course, this time I don't think random paint scoring will let me jump you at the 11th hour.
Already started on my new display board. It's not like I'm openly competing with a certain tau player for best painted or anything. It more like a game of how many lights can I cram into a 2'x2'
MikeFox wrote: Already started on my new display board. It's not like I'm openly competing with a certain tau player for best painted or anything. It more like a game of how many lights can I cram into a 2'x2'
Fine, fine, I know when I'm being called out. Okay, Mike, bring it, man.
I'll score all kinds of points with my spectacular basing and green-stuff conversion:
Altered pose:
That isn't ink on those guns, but a 'special' technique:
And my new Miami Vice color scheme (the highlighting makes you weep, huh?):
... maybe you should just come to LVO for the fun and not worry about Best Paint.
Us either! Going to be a blast! 40K champs already has more sign ups this year than last did (had to cap it last year at 220)! So, we're going to have a sold out event for sure. Going to be a blast.
That case ... I want pairings with JY round 1. Might as well talk big. Otherwise I can play poker downstairs for the whole week and make money like last time.
MikeFox wrote: Already started on my new display board. It's not like I'm openly competing with a certain tau player for best painted or anything. It more like a game of how many lights can I cram into a 2'x2'
jy2 wrote: Let's do it Nick! May the best man from California win.
But there are no men from California... Only ladies!
Dem's fighting words! Ok, it's on. West Coast vs Midwest. California vs Texas. The Veteran versus the Upstart. Team Wrecking Crew vs Team Zero Comp. This is going to be fun!
And let's make it interesting. Winner treats to Happy Hour. You know I'm very charitable and like to spend money.
Provided I can make it, I am convinced that I can win the whole thing, so far I have a list that is unbeatable, and its not Tau. If you want to face the menace, pm me
Commander_Farsight wrote: Provided I can make it, I am convinced that I can win the whole thing, so far I have a list that is unbeatable, and its not Tau. If you want to face the menace, pm me
That's a bold statement indeed. No army is unbeatable.
Commander_Farsight wrote: Provided I can make it, I am convinced that I can win the whole thing, so far I have a list that is unbeatable, and its not Tau. If you want to face the menace, pm me
I'll just take this one publicly. Reese, can you hook up a round one match here? Looks like another Texas-California collision in the making.
Reecius wrote: Look at young blood here pointing at the fences! Jamie wins a few local events and the young buck thinks he can go straight to the big leagues =P
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and we're down to the teens for tickets left available for the LVO40K Champs!
Kiser, we might want to take a bet on who can smoke these guys the fastest?
Reecius wrote: Look at young blood here pointing at the fences! Jamie wins a few local events and the young buck thinks he can go straight to the big leagues =P
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and we're down to the teens for tickets left available for the LVO40K Champs!
Kiser, we might want to take a bet on who can smoke these guys the fastest?
Maybe, but I might need a handicap because I'm going to be bringing nuns with guns instead of the scars
Commander_Farsight wrote: Provided I can make it, I am convinced that I can win the whole thing, so far I have a list that is unbeatable, and its not Tau. If you want to face the menace, pm me
That's a bold statement indeed. No army is unbeatable.
Well lets just say I dont even think you can beat it my friend
Commander_Farsight wrote: Provided I can make it, I am convinced that I can win the whole thing, so far I have a list that is unbeatable, and its not Tau. If you want to face the menace, pm me
I'll just take this one publicly. Reese, can you hook up a round one match here? Looks like another Texas-California collision in the making.
PM me please
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reecius wrote: Look at young blood here pointing at the fences! Jamie wins a few local events and the young buck thinks he can go straight to the big leagues =P
Reading the thread makes me wonder what on earth have a signed up for, in the most positive manner
Never been to Vegas before, Haven't attended a tournament in what must be 5 plus years, and managed all of one game of sixth edition. Locked and loaded
It will be good to have you, buddy! The LVO is a blast.
@Thread
40k Champs is SOLD OUT!! w00t! 256 players from around the world coming to participate in the fun and competition! There is a wait list and we typically have at least a 10% no-show ratio, so if you want to come, there are still pretty good odds you will be able to play. Email me to get on the wait list.
Still room in the 40k friendly, Highlander and 30k events.
It will be good to have you, buddy! The LVO is a blast.
@Thread
40k Champs is SOLD OUT!! w00t! 256 players from around the world coming to participate in the fun and competition! There is a wait list and we typically have at least a 10% no-show ratio, so if you want to come, there are still pretty good odds you will be able to play. Email me to get on the wait list.
Still room in the 40k friendly, Highlander and 30k events.
I was the one who bought the very last ticket! MUAHAHAHA...... Yelp this is my first real big event. Where in the codex astartes does it say how to claim victory in such a situation?
Damn! Sold out and I missed it! I tried adding myself to the waiting list, but it kept failing to checkout because of the $0 price I think. Can I get some help with this? Also, how long is the list currently?
Budzerker wrote: So when is that vote on the Invisibility Nerf supposed to happen Reece?
Time is a' tickin' and people need to plan their lists.
Mid-November, and you're concerned about Invis and list construction? C'mon man, ... if anything, it is time to start training livers for Beer Hammer. *That* is something that requires marathon-level advanced preparation time.
Budzerker wrote: So when is that vote on the Invisibility Nerf supposed to happen Reece?
Time is a' tickin' and people need to plan their lists.
Mid-November, and you're concerned about Invis and list construction? C'mon man, ... if anything, it is time to start training livers for Beer Hammer. *That* is something that requires marathon-level advanced preparation time.
pfff. "Lists" .
While I take my beer-hammer training very seriously...
I also put a lot of work into my modeling and army building. I want to know as soon as possible which army I need to start building and painting up...
Budzerker wrote: So when is that vote on the Invisibility Nerf supposed to happen Reece?
Time is a' tickin' and people need to plan their lists.
Has invisibility been shown to be unstoppable?
Has there been a lot of tournaments won with armies using invisibility?
Why do you think it needs a nerf?
With Forge World, LoW, and Imperial Knights invisibility is the least of peoples worries.
No.
Some.
I don't.
And I agree.
If your not aware, Reece posted on Frontline Gaming that he will be taking a vote on nerfing it down to BS1, 5+ in CC. So blasts hit it, and it's much easier in cc.
I just want to know when it's going to happen so we can get a ruling on it as soon as possible.
Invis is one of those powers that when the right unit gets it, the game is mostly over.
But it is not about it being unbeatable. A good general will be able to beat it with the right list. As with many of their rules modifications(such as 2+ to 4+) its about it just not being fun. Even with most of the other powerful units you can at least do something, remove a few models have at least a LITTLE back and forth. However with invis, its just a matter of one player killing models, one player picking up models and not getting to do anything.
its why things like the C'tan are in general not allowed. The right lists can kill it, however for a majority of players(who make up most of the GT attendence) it is not possible. I faced an invis revenant titan all game and got really lucky and was able to kill it, however I could see it not being fun for most people to play against.
Budzerker wrote: So when is that vote on the Invisibility Nerf supposed to happen Reece?
Time is a' tickin' and people need to plan their lists.
Has invisibility been shown to be unstoppable?
Has there been a lot of tournaments won with armies using invisibility?
Why do you think it needs a nerf?
With Forge World, LoW, and Imperial Knights invisibility is the least of peoples worries.
No.
Some.
I don't.
And I agree.
If your not aware, Reece posted on Frontline Gaming that he will be taking a vote on nerfing it down to BS1, 5+ in CC. So blasts hit it, and it's much easier in cc.
I just want to know when it's going to happen so we can get a ruling on it as soon as possible.
Since he never posted the voting after that article, it's safe to assume they're not going to make any changes to Invisibility mainly. What you can expect is an exit poll after the tournament for some feedback. It'll most likely be there where you can vote whether you want Invisibility nerfed or not at their next events.
But for this event, I'd assume that there isn't going to be any changes.
Just curious, how are you all dealing with units that award special victory points for doing things? As that seems to be a rule that formations etc.. are getting now.
For example : Apotheosis, D3 VPs if your warlord is killed by a AP1 or 2 weapon.
Hollismason wrote: Just curious, how are you all dealing with units that award special victory points for doing things? As that seems to be a rule that formations etc.. are getting now.
For example : Apotheosis, D3 VPs if your warlord is killed by a AP1 or 2 weapon.
Or the Scalpel Squadron D3 VPs for First Blood.
All those bonus VP's apply to the Secondary missions.
The Horus Heresy 30k event for the LVO has some exciting news! The first 30 players to sign up get special issue Dog Tags for the event! These are awesome, steel dog tags that show that you're a vet of the event! If you're already signed up you are good to go. There aren't many spots left to get the free Dog Tags, so act quickly and get your tickets!
Budzerker wrote: So when is that vote on the Invisibility Nerf supposed to happen Reece?
Time is a' tickin' and people need to plan their lists.
Mid-November, and you're concerned about Invis and list construction? C'mon man, ... if anything, it is time to start training livers for Beer Hammer. *That* is something that requires marathon-level advanced preparation time.
pfff. "Lists" .
While I take my beer-hammer training very seriously...I also put a lot of work into my modeling and army building. I want to know as soon as possible which army I need to start building and painting up...
Ah. I take note of your commitment to a good lookin' army, respectfully.
I know *that* takes time (grumble ... grumble .... 4 hours for a WarpSpider .... grumble ).
Reecius wrote: We'll vote on Invis, I have just been absolutely swamped with work and have not been able to do it.
Why have a vote? Do we vote on everything that his hard to deal with in this game? How about a vote on Wave Serpents, Tau Firebase Cadre, Adamantine Lance, or Grav Guns, etc?
Now I am coming at this from someone who does not use Invisibility, so I have no stake in the vote, but why comp things that have been shown not to be game breaking in there power? If Invisibility is that powerful why are no armies that are using it winning GTs?
I thought you were Team 0 Comp, not team Vote For Comp?
You should also look to revisit the re-rollable 2++ save because that is so old news. The screamerstar never took off because you can tar pit it without Hit-and-Run. Now that the Seercouncil lost it's Hit-and-Run it is no longer viable.
But, that is is not the point, Blackmoor. It's not utter domination by lists. It's that the objective for us is to host FUN events. That is primary. Things like Invis and the 2+ reroll are simply not fun for most people. We vote to get a feel for what the majority of people want to have in their games. We don't arbitrarily make changes.
Considering that our events consistently sell out while events in many other places in the country have declining attendance, I think we are doing the right thing. Some people may not like every aspect of what we do (or other TOs that do institute some rules changes) but that is acceptable if the majority of players have more fun and are more excited to come and enjoy gaming events.
But, that is is not the point, Blackmoor. It's not utter domination by lists. It's that the objective for us is to host FUN events. That is primary. .
That is exactly the argument against Imperial Knights and Adamantine Lance. You can either beat it or you can't, and generally neither player has fun because of that.
I don't like to see changes to the rules. Even if a unit has Insta Gizz it's not like they will always successfully be able to cast it. If we're going to change rules how about a nerf to Serpent Shield - it's ridiculous.
You can plan for lance and serpents to an extent. Invis/2+ re-roll there is little you can do without gimping your army against a lot of other targets(especially with the limited detachments).
Secondly, I get the impression they are avoiding targeting specific books/models but rather main rulebook rules that cause issues(such as the super-heavy walkers/infiltrate)
The point is just about everybody hates something... Knights and Wave Serpents are way up there. The change to 2+ re rollable did not stop Jetseer council from winning out. Some said it actually backfired as players wasted their shooting on JSC.
Considering that our events consistently sell out while events in many other places in the country have declining attendance, I think we are doing the right thing. Some people may not like every aspect of what we do (or other TOs that do institute some rules changes) but that is acceptable if the majority of players have more fun and are more excited to come and enjoy gaming events.
As a long time BAO and now a LVO fan I have to say that Reecius has it correct here. They do an incredible job on making sure the Players that spend a large amount of their money and time (vacation time as well) to come to their Events enjoy themselves and look forward to coming back again. I do not envy the hard choices these TOs have to make for these really big events. I might not agree with all of the choices myself, but I do understand them. I go to their events knowing this and am always prepared for these different formats, and I am always super excited to be going.
You can just email me directly if you have issues with the wait list in the cart. I will add you to the list.
@Dugg
Thanks for the support.
@Blackmoor
Again, you miss the point.
It is not fun to not participate in a game of 40K. Things like a 2+ reroll save and invis can effectively make a unit unkillable. You don't get to interact with the unit, but simply watch it act with impunity. Good players can and will get around it. But again, that is not the point. The point is that it makes the game become one player acting, the other watching, which is not fun.
Knights and Serpents can be obnoxious and can be difficult to destroy but they do not have the same type of defense. It's apples and oranges and not a valid counter argument.
Plus, we haven't even voted yet, this may not come to pass. Vote with what you want to see. If it does get in, and you truly hate it to the point where you don't think you will enjoy yourself, we have a double digit waiting list. There are plenty of folks that would be happy to have your spot.
I don't say that to be rude, it's just the truth. The proposed change is a minor tweak, not a ban, not a nerf, just to make it manageable as we did with the 2+ reroll save which has been gladly accepted by the community.
Exactly. We have and will violate the sacred cow of "not chaning the rules" if we believe it makes the game more fun for more people AND our attendees want it. 7th ed is a blast with restrictions, it's a total gak show in a competitive setting without them. You change the rules when you limit detachments, you change the rules when you limit or ban lords of war, etc. It's hypocritical to say changing some rules is OK, and others not.
Dozer Blades wrote: Reecius seriously you should have discussed you want to change rules before you sold any tickets .
Well, it is not that big of a change, just makes them be able to be shot with templates and blasts. I should only effect demon armies and a few cent stars.
The players who are going to the LVO are there for the friends, community and hanging out in Vegas. They should be tournament players who know how to roll with the punches, so a rule change should not be a big deal to them.
Heck, GW will release a lot of data slates and a codex or two by then that will completely change and invalidate some armies,
Note: I do not mind rule changes. I have an army that might have a re-rollable 2+ save but I don't care about that change. If you think that a rule/unit/whatever needs to be changed or modified I am ok with that. What I do not like is voting over it.
@Reece,
One change of the last LVO I did *not* appreciate was the promise of PBR ... and instead, a Bait-and-Switch of a bar stocked with Heineken and other quality beers.
I really like what they do in combining RAW and RAI with their rulings as well as keeping things functional takes priority lol.
Also I am a competitive player, but I don't take typical lists or lists that are actually affected by these rules changes that aim to sort of exploit the rules/sticky areas of the rules. Means that I can bring my non-optimised list and still have a good showing.
Hey, that cow was asking for it, did you see what it was wearing?
But yeah, perhaps not the best turn of phrase, lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's Vegas, Baby!
The Las Vegas Open is occurring February 20th-22nd and is a full service tabletop gaming con located in fabulous Las Vegas, right on the strip in the Flamingo Casino. We have 30,000 sqft of space and are expecting over 1,000 gamers this year, having a blast.
Purchase your event tickets here. You can buy one day passes which get you into all of the Warmachine and Hordes events for that day, or get a 3 day pass and save some money. Be sure to also get your con badge, too, which is what gets you into the event.
We are giving out some INCREDIBLE prizes for the Warmachine and Hordes players. The winner of the day time event each day, will win a Colossal or Gargantuan painted by the extremely talented, Tyson Koch of Figure Painters. Here's a shot of his previous work to get an idea of the quality!
We're also giving out tons of prizes for all other events, appearance, generalship, etc. But, the BIG prize is for the top individual that qualifies for Warmachine Weekend will get a voucher that covers up to $500 in travel expenses to get there! That's right, we will pay for you to go to the event if you are the top dog at the LVO.
The event also has some of, if not the best looking tables you will ever play Warmachine on. Each table will have one of our very popular F.A.T. Mats on it, fully painted, gorgeous terrain, chess clocks, and some feature tables such as this one from the last LVO to create an impressive experience.
We will also have a full service bar in the tournament hall, and tons of fun social events like Beerhammer, Pub Crawls, etc. to make the most of having an event in Vegas! So come and join us for a great 3 days of gaming.
Please note, the change to the 2+ reroll save is still in effect. Ie., any save of any type of a 2+ that can be rerolled is failed on the second roll of a 1,2 or 3.
Julnlecs wrote: Good thing my army has been ready since BAO.
Are you keeping the same list?
@Reece
I really hope that Invisiblity is taken care of across the 40k tournament scene. Its the single most stupid rules paragraph in the game. Who wants to go up against that? Especially since GKs and other crap can get it so easy, Sorry Blackmoor no shenanigans for you, just another tabling by Spam Adams
For all those who have problems with rules changes after you bought you tickets, please just shut it or get a refund, and dont go.
Julnlecs wrote: Good thing my army has been ready since BAO.
Are you keeping the same list?
@Reece
I really hope that Invisiblity is taken care of across the 40k tournament scene. Its the single most stupid rules paragraph in the game. Who wants to go up against that? Especially since GKs and other crap can get it so easy, Sorry Blackmoor no shenanigans for you, just another tabling by Spam Adams
For all those who have problems with rules changes after you bought you tickets, please just shut it or get a refund, and dont go.
Thanks
Because this is a good way to open dialogue....
Invisibility is fine. 2++ re-roll is now fine. Changing the rules so people don't have to adjust to things or their armies is not fine. Changing mechanics of the game while leaving other abusive things that are far more annoying (AdLance) in the game because they aren't in the core rule book is not fine. I'd argue AdLance is far less fun to play against than a single invisible unit ever could be. Invis can be failed and I can deny it. I can't deny an AdLance...
Also, L2P
Either way, 2015 isn't my year for LVO (2016 barring the unexpected is my year) due to my vacation time not kicking over till March and having to many weddings this year. But good luck to everyone attending.
Julnlecs wrote: Good thing my army has been ready since BAO.
Are you keeping the same list?
@Reece
I really hope that Invisiblity is taken care of across the 40k tournament scene. Its the single most stupid rules paragraph in the game. Who wants to go up against that? Especially since GKs and other crap can get it so easy, Sorry Blackmoor no shenanigans for you, just another tabling by Spam Adams
For all those who have problems with rules changes after you bought you tickets, please just shut it or get a refund, and dont go.
Thanks
#1. I am playing Eldar.
#2. I don't use invisibility.
#3. Just what I would think from someone who plays an army that does not have psychic powers.
Since Tyranids now have access to 3-4 flying hive tyrants I do not see what the big deal is with invisibility. They have these monstrous flying creatures that can only be hit on "6"s, and are immune to blasts and templates. Does that sound familiar?
jy2 wrote: I'm going to dread seeing all of those Invisible Draigo-Loth-centstar armies that are going to be there.
Maybe I'll bring a 5-flyrant list.
Psychic powers are incredibly unreliable. That is why we have never seen a list in 7th edition win a GT that features them heavily. It is much better to have abilities that you can count on like Wave Serpents, Jive Tyrants and Adamantium Lances.
They're still unreliable. To build in the amount of warpcharges you'll need to make them reliable you're sacrificing other portions of your force to do it. Making the army based around those powers. And those powers do still fail and can still be dispelled. Especially by armies like Nids and Daemons (or heaven forbid a combo of the two )who rack up WC's like it's going out of style.
I'll be there with my derpy tau ready to shame people with my piranhas. Suck it forgeworld and psychics, we didn't want to play with you anyways!
I remember seeing your army at Adepticon. Very nicely done.
Looking at it, I am scratching me head as to what is so "scary" about the list. Then again, piranhas in your army is probably the equivalent of lictors in Sean Nayden's army.
Anyways, glad to see you coming to the LVO. If I can get past Darkwynn on round #1, hopefully, I'd like to play against you in the later rounds, that is, if we both make it.
The scariest thing about my Piranhas is the options they open up for me in terms of in-game fish-related puns. I pretty much consider them a hard counter to imperial knights and death stars in that respect.
Target wrote: The scariest thing about my Piranhas is the options they open up for me in terms of in-game fish-related puns. I pretty much consider them a hard counter to imperial knights and death stars in that respect.
Don't worry Andrew will feel Orcaward enough. He will trawl enough people with Piranahas. Just hoping to avoid fishy disaster
Target wrote: The scariest thing about my Piranhas is the options they open up for me in terms of in-game fish-related puns. I pretty much consider them a hard counter to imperial knights and death stars in that respect.
Don't worry Andrew will feel Orcaward enough. He will trawl enough people with Piranahas. Just hoping to avoid fishy disaster
Hey, that was what one of my Team 0 Comp teammates and Frontline painter brought to the LVO last year (or maybe it was the BAO this year?):
The killer Orca from Israel's Tau. Israel is a very good player as well as painter! He finished the tournament 4-1 and his army also won Best Painted! BTW, Israel is one of the commission painters for Frontline Gaming.
Reece, we're almost 60 days out. Trying to finalize my list and do final painting. My day job prevents me from waiting until the last minute. When will we get final changes to the format, i.e. any changes to invisibility, banning Ad Lance, etc? I'm trying to decide if my "crutch" will be allowed, or if I need to throw away Be'Lakor and start painting another army.
Reecius wrote: We'll vote on that this week, sorry for the delay, we have been buried in work, lately.
Reece, I don't want this to come across rude. Are we just voting on Invisibility, and if so, is it a) banning, b) changing how it functions, or c) increasing warp charges?
If we're voting, are we also voting on "other unfun" things, like Admantium Lance?
Since, we're voting, do you honestly expect people who don't play armies that have heavy psychic power aces, to be in favor of keeping invisibility? And even though it is a "crutch" for some players - possibly even myself - isn't just 2 months out on a major event that requires hotels and airfare and whatnot a bit late to make changes like this (since you have control over them)?
Fair questions, get asked these all the time. Voting is only done by those who have their ticket, so it is all peers, and it is the equitable way to do this.
The proposition is to leave it alone, or to alter it to the target unit hitting them at BS1 with shooting, and on 5's in assault as they have done in the UK. It is still the best defensive power in the game that way, just toned down so that templates and blasts can hit invis units and you hit as if you were WS 1 in assault. It's a relatively mild change so that folks who use it can still use it, just not so OTT, similar to what we did with the 2+ reroll save.
Reecius wrote: Fair questions, get asked these all the time. Voting is only done by those who have their ticket, so it is all peers, and it is the equitable way to do this.
The proposition is to leave it alone, or to alter it to the target unit hitting them at BS1 with shooting, and on 5's in assault as they have done in the UK. It is still the best defensive power in the game that way, just toned down so that templates and blasts can hit invis units and you hit as if you were WS 1 in assault. It's a relatively mild change so that folks who use it can still use it, just not so OTT, similar to what we did with the 2+ reroll save.
And hey, it may get voted down.
Fair enough. Significant change, but not major enough to have to throw an army list out the window. Carry on. Looking forward to getting the poll.
After listening to Signals from the Frontline it seems like Reecus has a dislike of Invisibility. That is odd from someone who uses the Raptors chapter master and thinks nothing about how broken hive tyrants are.
I guess because Jeff plays Nids it is just a matter of the devil you know...
I will be voting against invisibility since I will not be using it, and it will cripple the only viable Grey Knight build, and one of the two competitive demon builds.
Blackmoor wrote: After listening to Signals from the Frontline it seems like Reecus has a dislike of Invisibility. That is odd from someone who uses the Raptors chapter master and thinks nothing about how broken hive tyrants are.
Hive Tyrants aren't broken. They cost quite a bit for what they bring to the table, unlike things like the Tranny C'Tan or Annihilation barges.
Perhaps spamming Hive Tyrants is broken. Just like spamming Wave Serpents, Riptides, or Imperial Knights, it can leave an opponent with very little way to interact with their opposing army except to pick their models up off the table.
I hope that one of our votes is to count a Codex Specific Detachment as a CAD in the two detachment limit. It would be a very, very marginal reduction of spam (4 Max flyrants instead of 5), but it would be a small step toward limiting spam, and reducing the Rock-Paper-Scissors factor, and the outcome of the vote would take a temperature of the Championship attendees to see how interested they are in more meaningful changes to 40k army composition rules.
tag8833 wrote: Hive Tyrants aren't broken. They cost quite a bit for what they bring to the table, unlike things like the Tranny C'Tan or Annihilation barges.
Perhaps spamming Hive Tyrants is broken. Just like spamming Wave Serpents, Riptides, or Imperial Knights, it can leave an opponent with very little way to interact with their opposing army except to pick their models up off the table. At least with invisibility they can at least be assaulted.
You do not need "6s" to hit any of those, and they can be targeted with blasts, templates, and can be assaulted unlike Hive Tyrants.
In 6th edition they were not too bad because:
#1. They could be grounded multiple times and then they could be shot with normal BS.
#2. They could not use their psychic powers and shoot at the same time (no psychic phase).
#3. You were limited to only 2 of them.
Now they fly around and they cast their psychic powers and shoot 12 TL strength 6 shots and are immune to most shooting.
I am not saying that we should ban hive tyrants, all I am saying is they argument against invisibility seems silly when you have those things flying around. .
If you are worried about hive tyrants maybe bring some more AA. IS there anything you can bring to ignore invisibility? Well I can... triple mawlocs bitches!
Mawlocs, LoW Stomps, Vector Strikes, screamer turbo attacks, tank shock/ramming, Hammer of Wrath, all ignore invisibility. Then of course there is always the 'power denied' factor depending on your opponent.
OrdoSean wrote: If you are worried about hive tyrants maybe bring some more AA. IS there anything you can bring to ignore invisibility? Well I can... triple mawlocs bitches!
I think you will see a lot more skyfire at the LVO than we have seen at the last GTs.
I think we can all agree the problem with all these powerful builds like those that use Invisibility, or AdLance, Pentyrant, Centstar, Seerstar, Serpent spam, Triptide... all boils down to those damned wyches.
We need to nerf them and be done with it. Do the right thing, say NO to wyches.
Since this won't be an open vote I look forward to seeing the eventual results. Hopefully they will be posted along with the questions for those of us unable to attend this year but interested none the less.
Hulksmash wrote: Since this won't be an open vote I look forward to seeing the eventual results. Hopefully they will be posted along with the questions for those of us unable to attend this year but interested none the less.
It will be! We always post the data, whichever way the wind blows.
Would you please stop giving other players the ability to take away options from me? Last year I lost access to Be'lakor because you lumped everything in and banned dataslates because everybody hated the Tau formation. A year later, you're going to let players vote to nerf him.
If you want to change the rules, change the rules, and do it before I buy the sodding ticket to your event so I know what I'm getting into. I just took the poll and was expecting more than one question. Why are we only voting on one thing? Where was the Adamantine Lance question? How about the Serpent Shield question? How about the Warp Spider question? The Thunderwolf Cavalry question? If you let barrage weapons hit invis units, my Flesh Hounds will be mostly wiped out in a single turn of shooting from Wyverns. Can I vote to nerf Wyverns?
I for one greatly appreciate the poll. I'm eager to see the results, and hope that such polls can be used to better understand the 40k player base, and their tolerance for marginal tweaks that promote a more fun or more RAW game.
ETA. Also greatly appreciated because my local tourney is stealing the LVO format, and coming up fast, so we need to inform our attendees of any rules tweaks like this ASAP.
slaede wrote: Would you please stop giving other players the ability to take away options from me? Last year I lost access to Be'lakor because you lumped everything in and banned dataslates because everybody hated the Tau formation. A year later, you're going to let players vote to nerf him.
If you want to change the rules, change the rules, and do it before I buy the sodding ticket to your event so I know what I'm getting into.
Amen brother. I feel exactly the same way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tag8833 wrote: I for one greatly appreciate the poll. I'm eager to see the results, and hope that such polls can be used to better understand the 40k player base, and their tolerance for marginal tweaks that promote a more fun or more RAW game.
Just like the change to the re-rollable 2++ this is also NOT a minor or marginal tweak. The change to invisibility makes a unit that is invisible 100% easier to hit in close combat and more than 100% easier to hit with shooting (since it can now be hit with template and blast weapons). This is actually a VERY LARGE change to a very specific power in the game. There may only be a few armies that can reliably get this power - so I expect everyone else to vote for the change, but let's not kid ourselves about how big the change is to those players that built a list around this power, have spent a few month painting and modelling and may now find out that their hammer unit just became 50% less durable.
slaede wrote: Would you please stop giving other players the ability to take away options from me? Last year I lost access to Be'lakor because you lumped everything in and banned dataslates because everybody hated the Tau formation. A year later, you're going to let players vote to nerf him.
If you want to change the rules, change the rules, and do it before I buy the sodding ticket to your event so I know what I'm getting into. I just took the poll and was expecting more than one question. Why are we only voting on one thing? Where was the Adamantine Lance question? How about the Serpent Shield question? How about the Warp Spider question? The Thunderwolf Cavalry question? If you let barrage weapons hit invis units, my Flesh Hounds will be mostly wiped out in a single turn of shooting from Wyverns. Can I vote to nerf Wyverns?
Didn't you win Best Daemon last year despite playing without Be'lakor? Well, if you can do that...and if Alex Fennell can win the tournament despite the 2+/4+ re-rollable nerf....then consider this a true challenge to your generalship. Even with the nerf to Invisibility, it's still a very good power.
BTW, if it's any consolation, I voted No to the nerf even though I won't be running Invisibility.
slaede wrote: Would you please stop giving other players the ability to take away options from me? Last year I lost access to Be'lakor because you lumped everything in and banned dataslates because everybody hated the Tau formation. A year later, you're going to let players vote to nerf him.
If you want to change the rules, change the rules, and do it before I buy the sodding ticket to your event so I know what I'm getting into. I just took the poll and was expecting more than one question. Why are we only voting on one thing? Where was the Adamantine Lance question? How about the Serpent Shield question? How about the Warp Spider question? The Thunderwolf Cavalry question? If you let barrage weapons hit invis units, my Flesh Hounds will be mostly wiped out in a single turn of shooting from Wyverns. Can I vote to nerf Wyverns?
Didn't you win Best Daemon last year despite playing without Be'lakor? Well, if you can do that...and if Alex Fennell can win the tournament despite the 2+/4+ re-rollable nerf....then consider this a true challenge to your generalship. Even with the nerf to Invisibility, it's still a very good power.
BTW, if it's any consolation, I voted No to the nerf even though I won't be running Invisibility.
I was third best Daemons behind Adrien Jeanniard and Goatboy and I finished 15th. If Be'lakor had been legal, I would have played flying circus, which would have been stronger than what I brought because invisible Tzeentch DP grimoire bearer and 2+ rerollable Fateweaver was on par with Seer Council in those days. Doesn't guarantee I would have done better.
I am annoyed because the Ad Lance player can vote to be able to drop two battle cannons on my invisible Flesh Hounds, then charge in and stomp on them. If I want to send in invisible Be'lakor to kill one, he gets hit on 5's instead of 6's which is huge. The Daemon army already struggles to kill even a single Knight since it has to get in close and get stomped on, then take an explosion to the face. This is swinging the needle even farther in their favor, and for no reason because invis is not tearing up the tournament scene.
slaede wrote: Would you please stop giving other players the ability to take away options from me? Last year I lost access to Be'lakor because you lumped everything in and banned dataslates because everybody hated the Tau formation. A year later, you're going to let players vote to nerf him.
If you want to change the rules, change the rules, and do it before I buy the sodding ticket to your event so I know what I'm getting into. I just took the poll and was expecting more than one question. Why are we only voting on one thing? Where was the Adamantine Lance question? How about the Serpent Shield question? How about the Warp Spider question? The Thunderwolf Cavalry question? If you let barrage weapons hit invis units, my Flesh Hounds will be mostly wiped out in a single turn of shooting from Wyverns. Can I vote to nerf Wyverns?
Didn't you win Best Daemon last year despite playing without Be'lakor? Well, if you can do that...and if Alex Fennell can win the tournament despite the 2+/4+ re-rollable nerf....then consider this a true challenge to your generalship. Even with the nerf to Invisibility, it's still a very good power.
BTW, if it's any consolation, I voted No to the nerf even though I won't be running Invisibility.
I was third best Daemons behind Adrien Jeanniard and Goatboy and I finished 15th. If Be'lakor had been legal, I would have played flying circus, which would have been stronger than what I brought because invisible Tzeentch DP grimoire bearer and 2+ rerollable Fateweaver was on par with Seer Council in those days. Doesn't guarantee I would have done better.
I am annoyed because the Ad Lance player can vote to be able to drop two battle cannons on my invisible Flesh Hounds, then charge in and stomp on them. If I want to send in invisible Be'lakor to kill one, he gets hit on 5's instead of 6's which is huge. The Daemon army already struggles to kill even a single Knight since it has to get in close and get stomped on, then take an explosion to the face. This is swinging the needle even farther in their favor, and for no reason because invis is not tearing up the tournament scene.
Oh, that's right. You won Best Daemon at the BAO.
Regardless, Invisibility is secondary. Daemon summoning is what truly makes Daemons strong. That and FMC's.
BTW, you've got something that can offset the nerf to Invisibility (that is, IF it gets nerfed)....Shroud. That's a power you need to make use of.
Oh, I know what to do and it doesn't change my list or how I play much. It's a chump nerf, just like the 2+/4+ was, but it's exasperating that this is getting singled out when there are equally unfun things out there that don't make Reece's list of stuff to absolve himself of having to take responsibility for monkeying with.
slaede wrote: Would you please stop giving other players the ability to take away options from me? Last year I lost access to Be'lakor because you lumped everything in and banned dataslates because everybody hated the Tau formation. A year later, you're going to let players vote to nerf him.
If you want to change the rules, change the rules, and do it before I buy the sodding ticket to your event so I know what I'm getting into. I just took the poll and was expecting more than one question. Why are we only voting on one thing? Where was the Adamantine Lance question? How about the Serpent Shield question? How about the Warp Spider question? The Thunderwolf Cavalry question? If you let barrage weapons hit invis units, my Flesh Hounds will be mostly wiped out in a single turn of shooting from Wyverns. Can I vote to nerf Wyverns?
Didn't you win Best Daemon last year despite playing without Be'lakor? Well, if you can do that...and if Alex Fennell can win the tournament despite the 2+/4+ re-rollable nerf....then consider this a true challenge to your generalship. Even with the nerf to Invisibility, it's still a very good power.
BTW, if it's any consolation, I voted No to the nerf even though I won't be running Invisibility.
I agree with you 100% and I am not sure if you were being serious since a 2+/4+ rerollable is what ~90% success rate? Yea that was SUCH a nerf to the poor guys army
I can see why some people would be upset with changes after tickets have been sold to things like this that have existed well before they went on sale but to be fair to Reece, it's much easier polling attendees then the whole internet.
@slaede-I am sure he'll refund your ticket if your that upset.
I think they should exit poll players this year and see how they would feel to playing 5th ed style ie. no allies, detachments or formations... I bet there is a big market for that.
slaede wrote: Would you please stop giving other players the ability to take away options from me? Last year I lost access to Be'lakor because you lumped everything in and banned dataslates because everybody hated the Tau formation. A year later, you're going to let players vote to nerf him.
If you want to change the rules, change the rules, and do it before I buy the sodding ticket to your event so I know what I'm getting into. I just took the poll and was expecting more than one question. Why are we only voting on one thing? Where was the Adamantine Lance question? How about the Serpent Shield question? How about the Warp Spider question? The Thunderwolf Cavalry question? If you let barrage weapons hit invis units, my Flesh Hounds will be mostly wiped out in a single turn of shooting from Wyverns. Can I vote to nerf Wyverns?
Didn't you win Best Daemon last year despite playing without Be'lakor? Well, if you can do that...and if Alex Fennell can win the tournament despite the 2+/4+ re-rollable nerf....then consider this a true challenge to your generalship. Even with the nerf to Invisibility, it's still a very good power.
BTW, if it's any consolation, I voted No to the nerf even though I won't be running Invisibility.
I agree with you 100% and I am not sure if you were being serious since a 2+/4+ rerollable is what ~90% success rate? Yea that was SUCH a nerf to the poor guys army
I can see why some people would be upset with changes after tickets have been sold to things like this that have existed well before they went on sale but to be fair to Reece, it's much easier polling attendees then the whole internet.
@slaede-I am sure he'll refund your ticket if your that upset.
I think they should exit poll players this year and see how they would feel to playing 5th ed style ie. no allies, detachments or formations... I bet there is a big market for that.
PSSSSSH! Refund! I ain't no busta. No, what will hinder my performance at LVO is lack of practice since almost nobody in Phoenix plays 40k anymore, not this.
I'll say that, if we are going to be voting on perceived issues (which I'd prefer we don't do) like invisibility, we should also be voting on a wider range to include other ones (ad lance, etc.).
But, the vote was just invisibility, i don't use it and don't really like playing against it, but voted not to change it. I'm sure there are things in my army people don't like, and they don't have a chance to vote against them.
I appreciate the discussion guys, and I understand why certain people are aiming their dissatisfaction against me personally as I am the spokesperson for the event but, the fact of the matter is that I ABSOLUTELY do not just pick issues that I personally don't like, or do like, or what have you.
Behind the scenes I get dozens of emails daily form folks and I keep track of things. When an issue comes up that we as a group feel needs to be addressed, we address it. What all fo you reading this feel are big issues in the game will largely reflect your local meta or what you read online. We have a relatively unique position of getting tons of data from all over the place and from a wide variety of gamers.
There have been things that I have wanted to change that we didn't because the community wasn't ready for it. If it were 100% my call, we wouldn't be using CtA allies. I hate CtA allies, I think it flys in the face of the fluff of the game. But, the majority of people wanted it, so we went with it.
If this were a pure dictatorship, we would have let FW in a year earlier than we did. But again, the community wasn't ready for it, so we waited a year to make sure it was a smooth transition. There are a ton of examples like that where we didn't make changes we wanted to because our attendees weren't ready for it.
So again, if anyone is upset that Invis may be changing a bit, fair enough. If you are upset because we are doing this after tickets have sold, I also understand that, but we have learned it's better to ask paying attendees what they want as it is their event. We're still 2 months out from the event, so I would hardly classify this as a last minute change. And expecting to have a 100% finished format before you sell tickets is unreasonable as the game changes so rapidly. Also, the tickets are fully refundable up until 30 days out form the event, so if anyone is truly unhappy, we will give their money back, no questions asked. However, I would say that that is really overreacting to a relatively small thing meant to make the game more enjoyable for more people.
Fact of the matter is that our events, and events using our format, have been selling out with waiting lists for a long time now while many other events that may be perceived to be more "hardcore" or whatever, have been seeing declining attendance. The game needs modification to be playable in an organized setting. It is just a question of to what degree do we change things? There is no right answer to that question as everyone has a different barometer for that. To some people we go too far, to others, not far enough. We accepted a long time ago we would never please everyone. However, we continue to grow, so apparently we do please more folks than we piss off
I am not saying we are better or worse, I am not saying format is the only reason for this, it isn't. What I am saying is that while a vocal minority may not like certain aspects of what we do, a silent majority are coming out in force to the events and having fun. Our data proves factually that the vast majority of attendees that come to our events have a great time and like the way we do things. We also have a ton of first time attendees come to our events that were intimidated by tournaments. That is amazing! If we have to make small sacrifices in order to make the game and events more appealing to a broader audience, then we will. If players don't like a change we make, we will reverse course. It's a relatively simple formula, really.
If there are any other issues you all feel truly need addressing, feel free to talk to me about it, I make myself available. Invisibility came up because of the volume of people asking me to alter it, or expressing their distaste for it. That is why it was the only issue on the table this go around. I also personally don't like it, sure, but then I am always really forthright about my opinions on issues to try and show where my bias lays. If you just want to vent on a forum, feel free to do so and yell at me if that helps, haha, I have Rhino Hide for skin, and don't take it personally.
Ultimately, I hope folks come out, have a great time in Vegas with their friends. Being hyper focused on one or two relatively small things is probably not conducive to that, you know? Cutting off your nose to spite your face and all that. And, again, as with the 2+/4+ change we instituted last year, the overall event winner was playing a list with it. All it did was nerf his Seerstar enough so that some of them actually died instead of remaining invincible. Slaede, you may see that as a "chump" nerf, but the vast majority of our players appreciated it as it made them feel like the game was more enjoyable. If you really don't want any changes at all to the game, then let's all bust out our Unbound armies and Tranny C'Tans and watch the tournament scene die. We have to make some changes in order to create fun, fair competition. YMMV. And, as always, if anyone thinks they can build a better event, by all means, go for it. That is how the first BAO was born. We put our money where our mouth was.
Reecius wrote: I appreciate the discussion guys, and I understand why certain people are aiming their dissatisfaction against me personally as I am the spokesperson for the event but, the fact of the matter is that I ABSOLUTELY do not just pick issues that I personally don't like, or do like, or what have you.
Behind the scenes I get dozens of emails daily form folks and I keep track of things. When an issue comes up that we as a group feel needs to be addressed, we address it. What all fo you reading this feel are big issues in the game will largely reflect your local meta or what you read online. We have a relatively unique position of getting tons of data from all over the place and from a wide variety of gamers.
There have been things that I have wanted to change that we didn't because the community wasn't ready for it. If it were 100% my call, we wouldn't be using CtA allies. I hate CtA allies, I think it flys in the face of the fluff of the game. But, the majority of people wanted it, so we went with it.
If this were a pure dictatorship, we would have let FW in a year earlier than we did. But again, the community wasn't ready for it, so we waited a year to make sure it was a smooth transition. There are a ton of examples like that where we didn't make changes we wanted to because our attendees weren't ready for it.
So again, if anyone is upset that Invis may be changing a bit, fair enough. If you are upset because we are doing this after tickets have sold, I also understand that, but we have learned it's better to ask paying attendees what they want as it is their event. We're still 2 months out from the event, so I would hardly classify this as a last minute change. And expecting to have a 100% finished format before you sell tickets is unreasonable as the game changes so rapidly. Also, the tickets are fully refundable up until 30 days out form the event, so if anyone is truly unhappy, we will give their money back, no questions asked. However, I would say that that is really overreacting to a relatively small thing meant to make the game more enjoyable for more people.
Fact of the matter is that our events, and events using our format, have been selling out with waiting lists for a long time now while many other events that may be perceived to be more "hardcore" or whatever, have been seeing declining attendance. The game needs modification to be playable in an organized setting. It is just a question of to what degree do we change things? There is no right answer to that question as everyone has a different barometer for that. To some people we go too far, to others, not far enough. We accepted a long time ago we would never please everyone. However, we continue to grow, so apparently we do please more folks than we piss off
I am not saying we are better or worse, I am not saying format is the only reason for this, it isn't. What I am saying is that while a vocal minority may not like certain aspects of what we do, a silent majority are coming out in force to the events and having fun. Our data proves factually that the vast majority of attendees that come to our events have a great time and like the way we do things. We also have a ton of first time attendees come to our events that were intimidated by tournaments. That is amazing! If we have to make small sacrifices in order to make the game and events more appealing to a broader audience, then we will. If players don't like a change we make, we will reverse course. It's a relatively simple formula, really.
If there are any other issues you all feel truly need addressing, feel free to talk to me about it, I make myself available. Invisibility came up because of the volume of people asking me to alter it, or expressing their distaste for it. That is why it was the only issue on the table this go around. I also personally don't like it, sure, but then I am always really forthright about my opinions on issues to try and show where my bias lays. If you just want to vent on a forum, feel free to do so and yell at me if that helps, haha, I have Rhino Hide for skin, and don't take it personally.
Ultimately, I hope folks come out, have a great time in Vegas with their friends. Being hyper focused on one or two relatively small things is probably not conducive to that, you know? Cutting off your nose to spite your face and all that. And, again, as with the 2+/4+ change we instituted last year, the overall event winner was playing a list with it. All it did was nerf his Seerstar enough so that some of them actually died instead of remaining invincible. Slaede, you may see that as a "chump" nerf, but the vast majority of our players appreciated it as it made them feel like the game was more enjoyable. If you really don't want any changes at all to the game, then let's all bust out our Unbound armies and Tranny C'Tans and watch the tournament scene die. We have to make some changes in order to create fun, fair competition. YMMV. And, as always, if anyone thinks they can build a better event, by all means, go for it. That is how the first BAO was born. We put our money where our mouth was.
I can't argue with this, I appreciate the explanation and understand where your coming from. I cant wait for lvo....not sure what I am looking forward to more, playing in the event, or unleashing a freshly 21 brown on vegas.
Did frankie get me a pair of frontline glasses yet?!
Reecius that was a total load - what you are doing is plain wrong. I know you have a strong sense of how you think 40k should be and it can be really annoying and costly.
Dozer Blades wrote: Reecius that was a total load - what you are doing is plain wrong. I know you have a strong sense of how you think 40k should be and it can be really annoying and costly.
It looks like it might cost him your 75 bucks. If you could do us all a solid though, and quit the personal attacks and send in your request for a refund so someone off the wait list can make it into the event, That would be awesome!
Dozer Blades wrote: Reecius that was a total load - what you are doing is plain wrong. I know you have a strong sense of how you think 40k should be and it can be really annoying and costly.
Personally I voted against the invis nerf, but I can understand how others may dislike the idea. Knowing Reecius and those guys, sure they may have opinions one way or the other however they certainly listen to the player base as a whole and weigh their decisions rather than make knee jerk reactions. Just because in some of these circumstances Reecius or others have vocally sided with how a nerf is implemented, doesn't make his explanation a 'load'. He is taking the time to inform the attendees and to take into consideration how the majority of the players want THEIR event to run.
Reecius wrote: I appreciate the discussion guys, and I understand why certain people are aiming their dissatisfaction against me personally as I am the spokesperson for the event but, the fact of the matter is that I ABSOLUTELY do not just pick issues that I personally don't like, or do like, or what have you.
Behind the scenes I get dozens of emails daily form folks and I keep track of things. When an issue comes up that we as a group feel needs to be addressed, we address it. What all fo you reading this feel are big issues in the game will largely reflect your local meta or what you read online. We have a relatively unique position of getting tons of data from all over the place and from a wide variety of gamers.
There have been things that I have wanted to change that we didn't because the community wasn't ready for it. If it were 100% my call, we wouldn't be using CtA allies. I hate CtA allies, I think it flys in the face of the fluff of the game. But, the majority of people wanted it, so we went with it.
If this were a pure dictatorship, we would have let FW in a year earlier than we did. But again, the community wasn't ready for it, so we waited a year to make sure it was a smooth transition. There are a ton of examples like that where we didn't make changes we wanted to because our attendees weren't ready for it.
So again, if anyone is upset that Invis may be changing a bit, fair enough. If you are upset because we are doing this after tickets have sold, I also understand that, but we have learned it's better to ask paying attendees what they want as it is their event. We're still 2 months out from the event, so I would hardly classify this as a last minute change. And expecting to have a 100% finished format before you sell tickets is unreasonable as the game changes so rapidly. Also, the tickets are fully refundable up until 30 days out form the event, so if anyone is truly unhappy, we will give their money back, no questions asked. However, I would say that that is really overreacting to a relatively small thing meant to make the game more enjoyable for more people.
Fact of the matter is that our events, and events using our format, have been selling out with waiting lists for a long time now while many other events that may be perceived to be more "hardcore" or whatever, have been seeing declining attendance. The game needs modification to be playable in an organized setting. It is just a question of to what degree do we change things? There is no right answer to that question as everyone has a different barometer for that. To some people we go too far, to others, not far enough. We accepted a long time ago we would never please everyone. However, we continue to grow, so apparently we do please more folks than we piss off
I am not saying we are better or worse, I am not saying format is the only reason for this, it isn't. What I am saying is that while a vocal minority may not like certain aspects of what we do, a silent majority are coming out in force to the events and having fun. Our data proves factually that the vast majority of attendees that come to our events have a great time and like the way we do things. We also have a ton of first time attendees come to our events that were intimidated by tournaments. That is amazing! If we have to make small sacrifices in order to make the game and events more appealing to a broader audience, then we will. If players don't like a change we make, we will reverse course. It's a relatively simple formula, really.
If there are any other issues you all feel truly need addressing, feel free to talk to me about it, I make myself available. Invisibility came up because of the volume of people asking me to alter it, or expressing their distaste for it. That is why it was the only issue on the table this go around. I also personally don't like it, sure, but then I am always really forthright about my opinions on issues to try and show where my bias lays. If you just want to vent on a forum, feel free to do so and yell at me if that helps, haha, I have Rhino Hide for skin, and don't take it personally.
Ultimately, I hope folks come out, have a great time in Vegas with their friends. Being hyper focused on one or two relatively small things is probably not conducive to that, you know? Cutting off your nose to spite your face and all that. And, again, as with the 2+/4+ change we instituted last year, the overall event winner was playing a list with it. All it did was nerf his Seerstar enough so that some of them actually died instead of remaining invincible. Slaede, you may see that as a "chump" nerf, but the vast majority of our players appreciated it as it made them feel like the game was more enjoyable. If you really don't want any changes at all to the game, then let's all bust out our Unbound armies and Tranny C'Tans and watch the tournament scene die. We have to make some changes in order to create fun, fair competition. YMMV. And, as always, if anyone thinks they can build a better event, by all means, go for it. That is how the first BAO was born. We put our money where our mouth was.
I am not ragging on you for altering the rules. Warhammer 40k is incredibly stupid and unplayable without some serious self-imposed restrictions on what is allowed. I think the democratic process you use to arrive at those restrictions is crummy. Before you put the tickets on sale, announce what the restrictions are going to be, explain why you made them that way. You have enough street cred that folks will accept it at this point. I object to selling everyone tickets and then letting everyone selectively vote on what their opponents are allowed to do to them. The event sold out before this, so why not table it until next year with an exit poll?
Reecius wrote: I appreciate the discussion guys, and I understand why certain people are aiming their dissatisfaction against me personally as I am the spokesperson for the event but, the fact of the matter is that I ABSOLUTELY do not just pick issues that I personally don't like, or do like, or what have you.
Behind the scenes I get dozens of emails daily form folks and I keep track of things. When an issue comes up that we as a group feel needs to be addressed, we address it. What all fo you reading this feel are big issues in the game will largely reflect your local meta or what you read online. We have a relatively unique position of getting tons of data from all over the place and from a wide variety of gamers.
There have been things that I have wanted to change that we didn't because the community wasn't ready for it. If it were 100% my call, we wouldn't be using CtA allies. I hate CtA allies, I think it flys in the face of the fluff of the game. But, the majority of people wanted it, so we went with it.
If this were a pure dictatorship, we would have let FW in a year earlier than we did. But again, the community wasn't ready for it, so we waited a year to make sure it was a smooth transition. There are a ton of examples like that where we didn't make changes we wanted to because our attendees weren't ready for it.
So again, if anyone is upset that Invis may be changing a bit, fair enough. If you are upset because we are doing this after tickets have sold, I also understand that, but we have learned it's better to ask paying attendees what they want as it is their event. We're still 2 months out from the event, so I would hardly classify this as a last minute change. And expecting to have a 100% finished format before you sell tickets is unreasonable as the game changes so rapidly. Also, the tickets are fully refundable up until 30 days out form the event, so if anyone is truly unhappy, we will give their money back, no questions asked. However, I would say that that is really overreacting to a relatively small thing meant to make the game more enjoyable for more people.
Fact of the matter is that our events, and events using our format, have been selling out with waiting lists for a long time now while many other events that may be perceived to be more "hardcore" or whatever, have been seeing declining attendance. The game needs modification to be playable in an organized setting. It is just a question of to what degree do we change things? There is no right answer to that question as everyone has a different barometer for that. To some people we go too far, to others, not far enough. We accepted a long time ago we would never please everyone. However, we continue to grow, so apparently we do please more folks than we piss off
I am not saying we are better or worse, I am not saying format is the only reason for this, it isn't. What I am saying is that while a vocal minority may not like certain aspects of what we do, a silent majority are coming out in force to the events and having fun. Our data proves factually that the vast majority of attendees that come to our events have a great time and like the way we do things. We also have a ton of first time attendees come to our events that were intimidated by tournaments. That is amazing! If we have to make small sacrifices in order to make the game and events more appealing to a broader audience, then we will. If players don't like a change we make, we will reverse course. It's a relatively simple formula, really.
If there are any other issues you all feel truly need addressing, feel free to talk to me about it, I make myself available. Invisibility came up because of the volume of people asking me to alter it, or expressing their distaste for it. That is why it was the only issue on the table this go around. I also personally don't like it, sure, but then I am always really forthright about my opinions on issues to try and show where my bias lays. If you just want to vent on a forum, feel free to do so and yell at me if that helps, haha, I have Rhino Hide for skin, and don't take it personally.
Ultimately, I hope folks come out, have a great time in Vegas with their friends. Being hyper focused on one or two relatively small things is probably not conducive to that, you know? Cutting off your nose to spite your face and all that. And, again, as with the 2+/4+ change we instituted last year, the overall event winner was playing a list with it. All it did was nerf his Seerstar enough so that some of them actually died instead of remaining invincible. Slaede, you may see that as a "chump" nerf, but the vast majority of our players appreciated it as it made them feel like the game was more enjoyable. If you really don't want any changes at all to the game, then let's all bust out our Unbound armies and Tranny C'Tans and watch the tournament scene die. We have to make some changes in order to create fun, fair competition. YMMV. And, as always, if anyone thinks they can build a better event, by all means, go for it. That is how the first BAO was born. We put our money where our mouth was.
I am not ragging on you for altering the rules. Warhammer 40k is incredibly stupid and unplayable without some serious self-imposed restrictions on what is allowed. I think the democratic process you use to arrive at those restrictions is crummy. Before you put the tickets on sale, announce what the restrictions are going to be, explain why you made them that way. You have enough street cred that folks will accept it at this point. I object to selling everyone tickets and then letting everyone selectively vote on what their opponents are allowed to do to them. The event sold out before this, so why not table it until next year with an exit poll?
Would this potential change honestly stop you from going? This is not ment as a personal attack of any kind, im just saying this won't make a majority of the people going suddenly not want to attend the event.
Behind the scenes I get dozens of emails daily form folks and I keep track of things. When an issue comes up that we as a group feel needs to be addressed, we address it. What all fo you reading this feel are big issues in the game will largely reflect your local meta or what you read online. We have a relatively unique position of getting tons of data from all over the place and from a wide variety of gamers.
I am also in a position to get a ton of data from all over the place and from a wide variety of gamers. That is why I was kind of shocked that Invisibility was still an issue. Yes, everyone was up in arms about it just after 7th edition came out just like everyone wanted to limit demon summoning and warp charges. Now in hindsight we have learned that these are really non-issues and have proven to be less than effective in tournament play.
In my experience everyone feels that Adamanitum Lance needs to be addressed. You can see by the reactions to the poll about invisibility that a lot it would be in there would be a question about AL as well since it meets your criteria of #1. Not being any fun to play against, and #2. A large potion of the players feel that is needs to be addressed.
So how big of a petition do we need to get from registered players of the LVO to get Adamantium Lance to be addressed in a poll?
I am not ragging on you for altering the rules. Warhammer 40k is incredibly stupid and unplayable without some serious self-imposed restrictions on what is allowed. I think the democratic process you use to arrive at those restrictions is crummy.
This is my biggest beef with the process. It is not that I am against Reecius coming in and changing the rules, it is the notion of voting for the changes.
Here are the problems:
You have fear mongering about anything that is put up for a vote.
You have a very small percentage of players impacted negatively by any rule change, and a large portion impacted positively by it. So you will always get people voting for banning anything since it does not hurt them, and only helps them.
I question a lot of players knowledge, and experience with anything that is voted for.
This is my biggest beef with the process. It is not that I am against Reecius coming in and changing the rules, it is the notion of voting for the changes.
Here are the problems:
You have fear mongering about anything that is put up for a vote.
You have a very small percentage of players impacted negatively by any rule change, and a large portion impacted positively by it. So you will always get people voting for banning anything since it does not hurt them, and only helps them.
I question a lot of players knowledge, and experience with anything that is voted for.
Exactly. We are allowing anyone who does not play GK Centstar, Seer Council or Be'lakor Daemons to get a leg up on their competition, while I get no say in what happens to an Ad Lance player's army.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
krootman. wrote: Would this potential change honestly stop you from going? This is not ment as a personal attack of any kind, im just saying this won't make a majority of the people going suddenly not want to attend the event.
I already said I'm not asking for a refund. However, I am annoyed (not angry), and as a paying customer, I have the right to complain.
This is my biggest beef with the process. It is not that I am against Reecius coming in and changing the rules, it is the notion of voting for the changes.
Here are the problems:
You have fear mongering about anything that is put up for a vote.
You have a very small percentage of players impacted negatively by any rule change, and a large portion impacted positively by it. So you will always get people voting for banning anything since it does not hurt them, and only helps them.
I question a lot of players knowledge, and experience with anything that is voted for.
Exactly. We are allowing anyone who does not play GK Centstar, Seer Council or Be'lakor Daemons to get a leg up on their competition, while I get no say in what happens to an Ad Lance player's army.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
krootman. wrote: Would this potential change honestly stop you from going? This is not ment as a personal attack of any kind, im just saying this won't make a majority of the people going suddenly not want to attend the event.
I already said I'm not asking for a refund. However, I am annoyed (not angry), and as a paying customer, I have the right to complain.
You signed away your rights when you put your first 40k model together #plasticcrack
I voted against changing invis. My army doesn't use it and I want my opponents that do use it to feel that they're playing their 'A' game when they play me. I voted against changing the 2+ re-roll last year and we all know how that turned out, so my prediction is that Invis will get nerfed a little and those of us playing against it just got a little help.
I voted against it as well, because if it is going to go back to 6th ed invis without shroud/stealth, might as well make it warp charge 1 again. Yeah, you shoot at BS1, sure, that can negate some, but the hitting on 6s is the reason it is WC2.
The no templates is dumb, I can see that being removed, because in reality, you USE blasts/flamethrowers to hit stuff you can't see. The other half of the change is really kinda not justifying it stay a WC2 power.
@Reecius: Soooo.... I didn't get a notification to "vote" nor did my team? I hope that doesn't mean we've been un-invited or our payment(s) didn't go through?
@all of y'all: I don't much care about what is allowed or what isn't I'm going to play with toys in Vegas... as an adult... That's awesome! Invisibility is something I just don't encounter so it may be pretty bad. I may whine pretty hard when I see it played by an expert, but I whine about all kinds of stuff.
To any of you who wan't to sell your tickets, I bet you could if Reece allows it. I know several of my buds are pretty bummed they didn't get in before it sold out.
I am one of the silent masses who takes Orks to majors, so that means I'm a fool. Nevertheless, I was play-testing LVO Tourks last night vs my buddy's super double-plus secret list. He's gonna beat all you knuckle heads... without invis, re-rollable cheese or whatever.... he's a GD40k savant. See you fools there.... My grot horde is gonna make you cry!
I dont mind changes to the game to make it better. I actually asked Reece to get stricter on army comp and get rid of the silly double cad nonsense that these codex detachments create. I asked him to ban 5 flyrants... and Im playing Nids.
So I voted I dont care for invisibility. If they change it cool, if they dont thats ok too. There are a lot of things that I would change before invisibility.
There have been things that I have wanted to change that we didn't because the community wasn't ready for it. If it were 100% my call, we wouldn't be using CtA allies. I hate CtA allies, I think it flys in the face of the fluff of the game. But, the majority of people wanted it, so we went with it.
CtA Allies are allowed now? Interesting.... Knights with EVERYTHING. lol
Shoot me your email, I will send it to you. I sent it to everyone in the 40k events that I have their email for.
@Budzerker
Yeah, i lost that fight! I will die a little inside when I see Nids with knight =(
@Ordo Sean
Yeah, a lot of folks ask me to change stuff or make more restrictions. I think the only realistic solution is to offer more events, like Highlander and the Friendly. I think that will give the most people the type of game they want.
Yeah, a lot of folks ask me to change stuff or make more restrictions. I think the only realistic solution is to offer more events, like Highlander and the Friendly. I think that will give the most people the type of game they want.
Oh I'm not complaining Reece. We had a good dialogue and I continue to be satisfied with your line of thinking and process.
I have to admit to being perhaps a minority. Because I would totally support blocking double cad. But have no problem with people playing adlance, I think it's a crutchy list that is very beatable. I also don't mind the 6+ serpent lists. The trouble with any and all proposed nerfs or changes is we all have our own bias and experience and play styles which can affect how we perceive the game.
Focused change with good reason and intention is better then broad stroke bans or doing nothing at all. Which is what you are trying to do and that's to be encouraged.
I mean look at how adepticon didn't sell out this year. The last few years the champs sold out in an hour. Now with their wide open format and I think there are still tickets available. So it's pretty clear large amount of people want at least some changes or restrictions.
