Ok, I've been wondering, has there ever been any hint of how homosexuality is treated anywhere in the Imperium?
Or more specifically, is there any GW & BL (and maybe FFG, with a grain of salt) fluff that shows whether it is generally seen as heresy for some one to participate in homosexual activities? Is the homosexual identity (as in, openly announcing that one is homosexual/bisexual, or being publicly known as a homosexual person) accepted/tolerated, at least on certain planets or even cities? Or is it all together persecuted? And please provide a citation of the sources.
The reason for this question is that I had a fluff discussion with a fellow gamer about the fundamentals of the Imperial Creed, and whether it should be viewed as a taken from fundamental Hebrew/Christian/Muslim principles; or rather it is a simple concept based on the exterior properties of religions IRL, concerning only the divinity of the Emperor.
This is relevant to me because we plan to have a P&P dark heresy session, and need the facts/fluffs on many factors. This happens to be one we think may become relevant.
In all likelihood they don't have any official stance on the subject. A couple books have touched it but nothing sweeping.
If anything, its looked at like the following. The Emperor needs every citizen to do their part in aiding the war effort, that includes producing the next generation. Thus being LGBT would be seen as a dereliction of your duty.
Many planets have been confirmed as having reproductive duty be important. In the novel "Ice Guard" one of the characters is a women(rare in Valhallan regiments) who is there because she was unable to have children and so the only alternative was to be a soldier. The Vostroyans also likely have similar beliefs.
To be honest, the concepts of sexuality in the 40K universe are always treaded upon very lightly, and indirectly. There have been a fair number of same sex relationships suggested. Most notably in A Thousand Sons.
It's really difficult to say what it would be like in 40K. There has certainly been no insinuation that it was considered heresy in the 40K timeline, but it's also worth noting that that's way too controversial of a topic to ever be broached in the fluff.
I'd say it depends on how grimdark you want to be, and if you're the GM, lol. Certainly I could see plenty of arguments that 40K's repressive Imperium outlawing the practice. I mean, it's not a nice place, and that would certainly only be one more in a long line of the ways the Imperium isn't meant to be depicted as a fun and happy place. I mean, nobody really thinks too hard about how Cadia works, lol. I mean, everybody is drafted into the military, and yet they have a high enough reproduction rate to generate these countless regiments. And yet the ideal breeding period for females is rough age 17 to 30 because too much older and the likelihood of genetic defect rises significantly. So are the young women of Cadia being drafted into a militarized birthing program and that's why we see almost none of them depicted in the minis and fluff? Maybe the one from Space Marine is infertile? It's really the only explanation that makes sense. That topic has been broached before, and it's definitely grimdark as heck. But people get uncomfortable discussing it because it offends our modern sensibilities too much.
So, if sexuality is not really going to be integral to your campaign and its characters, maybe it's just better to be left alone.
As others have noted there a few lesbian or gay characters - I have not seen any specifics in any of the BL or other fluff that it is noted as being persecuted especially - the Imperium persecutes those who act or speakagainst it or somehow fail to fulfill its needs.............
Imperial Culture is pretty different from world to world some may well have the whole Warrior Brother thing going on (Spartans/Samurai and many others) deal where you have sex with women to have children and sex with men for other stuff and vice versa with female dominated cutlures..
It may be like in the Spartacus TV series - its not even worth remarking on who does what with whom...............
In the Outlanders supplement for Necromunda the Redemption believed that fornication, even thinking about fornication, was one of a number of sins which must be purged from the race by fire, blood and faith.
The Redemption is obviously and extreme belief system which is not really compatible with those forced breeding programs which are mentioned and hinted at elsewhere in the background; it could well be argued that that is merely because these things are tolerated for practical necessity and then you have those 'vitae wombs' that the Death Korps of Krieg are supposed to use.
Ironically I think in many areas like this the Imperium is actually liberal, at least in the sense that it doesn't officially care about people's sexuality, race et cetera. All that matters is that the Emperor and the Imperium are placed before all personal, individual desires.
Practically the Imperium doesn't play that great a role in the lives of ordinary citizens, it interacts mainly on a planetary scale although the through the Ministorum it is most likely to interact and therefore exert control over individuals. In any case it will be down to the prevailing culture of any given world how it views sexuality and to what extent people can 'be themselves' as a result. For example, you might expect that a Death World inhabitant will simply not have the time to explore who they are as a person, their life totally dominated by day-to-day survival.
What I've gathered so far is that such matters are treated differently from planets to planets -- likely depending on a planet's own regulation and popular traditions; the religious tenets varies from dioceses, largely independent between cardinals? And since there are mentioned homosexual characters in the canon, should it be taken as reasons to believe that this matter is outside of the Lex Imperialis, and therefore none of the Adeptus Arbites' concerns?
Gogsnik wrote: In the Outlanders supplement for Necromunda the Redemption believed that fornication, even thinking about fornication, was one of a number of sins which must be purged from the race by fire, blood and faith.
A way around that is if same-sex marriage is legal on Necromunda, in which case, intercourse between two human of the same gender would still adhere to the redemptionists' beliefs.
Which reminds me, I've heard somewhere that reproductive activities between human and abhumans are forbidden, is it true? If so, in what publication is such things mentioned? Or if it is implied, how?
By observation, the Imperium's civil rights are actually much more liberal compared to ours, on the whole. As long as you're not a mutant, psyker and follow Imperial laws they don't seem to particularly care about your gender, sexual orientation or consenting sexual practice.
And as far as the Guard is concerned, every Human has the right, and the expectation, to die for the Emprah.
The only exception to this would be individual worlds/systems who's head honcho disapproves of a particular orientation/act, in which case they may use the Imperial religion as an instrument to oppress it.
"The Emperor hates butsecs, therefore it is illegal!
"b-but the Ecclesiarchy in other parts of the sector don't preach tha-
BlaxicanX wrote: By observation, the Imperium's civil rights are actually much more liberal compared to ours, on the whole. As long as you're not a mutant, psyker and follow Imperial laws they don't seem to particularly care about your gender, sexual orientation or consenting sexual practice.
And as far as the Guard is concerned, every Human has the right, and the expectation, to die for the Emprah.
The only exception to this would be individual worlds/systems who's head honcho disapproves of a particular orientation/act, in which case they may use the Imperial religion as an instrument to oppress it.
"The Emperor hates butsecs, therefore it is illegal!
"b-but the Ecclesiarchy in other parts of the sector don't preach tha-
Heretic! Off with your head!"
Off the top of my head, the only actual "canonical" (in that it came from "official fluff") example of the Ecclesiarchy being used to oppress something was when the Sons of Malice were attacked by an inquisitor for cannibal practices. This ordinarily wouldn't mean much (Cannibals = Chaos is a logical enough assumption in many cases) except the fluff explicitly noted "Despite how several other Space Marine chapters practice cannibalism". Well, that and Fenris but that's Space Wolves for ya.
I doubt any planetary governor would be stupid enough to use the Ecclesiarchy to oppress someone without the Ecclesiarchy's permission. THat would get him declared a heretic REAL fast (or get a vindicare bullet to the head) because the Ecclesiarchy (which DOES go around validating various sects of the Imperial Cult, in order to make sure ye ol "We worship the Emperor by spreading plagues!" isn't actually a chaos cult in disguise) would likely view that Imperial Governor as stepping on their turf.
An Ecclesiarch however might abuse that power but the two times an ecclesiarch did was when it was a Chaos agent in disguise (Saint Basilica and the Abyssal Crusade, and Cardinal Xaphan of the Siege of Vraks)
So for the most part, I imagine the Imperium is likely somewhat alert to "That governor is abusing religion to oppress Gay people. We'd better investigate that governor because he might be a chaos cultist in disguise". ...at least, I'd hope so.
Honestly, looking at how the Imperium treats its citizens- they probably don't give a damn about your sexual orientation unless a planet was having population issues, and even then would only advise breeding programs. Hell compared to modern day America they're liberal. Even some mutants, like the fish-people are accepted and not persecuted for merely existing. It's only when you get into severe mutants like Beastmen and Chaos that the policy switches to prejudice with lethal force.
Essentially, at least by the entire federation of Imperial Worlds, the Imperium doesn't care about sexual orientation or genetic differences until you start growing extra limbs and/or become anthropomorphic Otherwise just do your job, worship the God Emperor, don't poke your nose around where it doesn't belong, and follow the orders of your betters and you'll be perfectly fine.
(Or at least, unmolested by the government. No guarantees about oppressive hours, alien invasion, or actual molestation by the dark eldar.)
i think the imperium would have a purely pragmatic view on that. Before the Emperor was put out of commission he fought against religion and the one put in place around him likely did not address it either because he had no official stance on it.
I also note that in many places in the imperium, marriages and such as a luxury most of the masses simply dont have anyway. Overall, I would say it is ignored and not addressed at all.
I'm sure the treatment if LGBT people is mostly likely subject to local law unless Imperial Law dictates no discrimination. Overall I see them as being treated no differently, I mean if we still can't accept gay people by the 41st millennium then forget it man let chaos take over.
Regarding such things the Imperium for the most part doesn't care. so long as a planet sends in it's tithes and worships the god-emperor in some form or another, they're free to do as they like.
Have to agree with most of the above - as far as the Imperium is concerned, they have other things to worry about.
Saying that, if intolerance of homosexuality was a cultural practice on an Imperial plant and people were persecuted for being gay, I don't think the Imperium would interfere with that suppression either.
Seeing as that the Dark Angels are all closet homosexuals, I think it is okay. Unless maybe that is the real secret the Dark Angels are trying to protect...
Furthermore, I think it is dependent on an individual world, or even a specific region on a world. It is all a matter of culture. On one world, people may be supportive of homosexuality, similar to the Ancient Greeks for example, while on a different world, homosexuals would be summarily executed.
The Imperium as a whole, as large and diverse as it is, usually does not tend to care about such minor cultural details.
I doubt most people care. There are so many other pressures on imperial citizens. Personal recreation and those of your neighbors are pretty low on the scale.
lcmiracle wrote: Ok, I've been wondering, has there ever been any hint of how homosexuality is treated anywhere in the Imperium?
Or more specifically, is there any GW & BL (and maybe FFG, with a grain of salt) fluff that shows whether it is generally seen as heresy for some one to participate in homosexual activities? Is the homosexual identity (as in, openly announcing that one is homosexual/bisexual, or being publicly known as a homosexual person) accepted/tolerated, at least on certain planets or even cities? Or is it all together persecuted? And please provide a citation of the sources.
The reason for this question is that I had a fluff discussion with a fellow gamer about the fundamentals of the Imperial Creed, and whether it should be viewed as a taken from fundamental Hebrew/Christian/Muslim principles; or rather it is a simple concept based on the exterior properties of religions IRL, concerning only the divinity of the Emperor.
This is relevant to me because we plan to have a P&P dark heresy session, and need the facts/fluffs on many factors. This happens to be one we think may become relevant.
GIven that the imperium is an ultra massive empire, with quadrillions of humans, and with cities so full of people that it's all the arbites can do to stop the gangers from burning the noble's houses, I get the feeling that the IOM gives no gaks about who you sleep with. About the only thing they ever bother to punish is anything that is detrimental to humanity at large, such as mass murder, or heresy.
I am pretty sure there are planets of the Imperium where heterosexuality is forbidden (maybe outside of very specific periods for reproduction) and homosexual relationships are the only one allowed. Because so many planets, so different from one another! One must be basically like the barbarian from Oglaf(NSFW).
As people have said, GW and BL never get explicit, so we have to base our knowledge on various hints and insinuations in the books.
It seems like many zealous religious people tend to frown LGBT relationships because they associate them with Slaanesh. Slaanesh worshipers pursue extreme forms of heterosexuality too, but that gets more of a pass because it's 1) much more common and 2) necessary to produce more humans, which are a vital resource to the Imperium. Still, the most extreme Imperial cults despise heterosexual relationships as well, and only tolerate sex for reproduction, if they don't take outright vows of celibacy. Either way, it is the association with Slaanesh, not any connection to Judeo-Christian beliefs, that is the reason for any negative attitudes about LGBT's among the Ecclesiarchy and those who follow them faithfully.
However, this is nowhere near universal dogma. There may be a puritan Inquisitor who sees any nonheterosexual relationship as a sign of Slaanesh corruption and will burn and purge. Another puritan Inquisitor may feel that, as long as a person loyally serves the Emperor and doesn't take things to the extremes that invite Slaanesh, their sexuality is a personal matter and is irrelevant.
That's just a broad generalization of what seems to be the Ecclesiarchial dogma about the matter. They aren't exactly gay friendly, but LGBT isn't automatically heresy. It depends on where you are, which Imperial official your dealing with, and their own interpretation of Imperial beliefs.
Outside of the zealous types (and they don't run everything, look at Necromunda, where the fairly secular noble houses run everything while Redemptionists are an outlaw gang) attitudes can literally be anything, particularly with so many different worlds and people.
Inquisitor Gonzo wrote: Have to agree with most of the above - as far as the Imperium is concerned, they have other things to worry about.
There is always plenty of other things to worry in a universe filled with horrors trying to annihilate the unstable Imperium of the human race.
But that doesn't mean we should forget we are in the grim darkness of the far future, where a lot of unnecessary harm is unleashed upon innocent civilians in an administration which would make look 1984 Big Brother's reign like a nice, illuminated and liberal monarchy.
So, given that the books and the fluff aren't really explanatory in this, I would personally bet that since stuff is supposed to be the darker and most dystopic possible, LGBT are probably going thorough their big deal of persecutions and racism. Not in every single, possible planet of course, but still.
fallinq wrote: It seems like many zealous religious people tend to frown LGBT relationships because they associate them with Slaanesh.
By that rate, a person trying to be a good chef is associated with Slaanesh too, because:
- Looking for perfection is something directly associated with Slaanesh
- Good food is also, like every worldly pleasure, associated with Slaanesh
I doubt it is the case. The most extreme religious nut will frown on good food, just like they frown on sex, but I doubt they will consider people doing either are directly Slaaneshi, just decadent and lacking of moral value… like everyone else who is not part of their cult.
fallinq wrote: There may be a puritan Inquisitor who sees any nonheterosexual relationship as a sign of Slaanesh corruption and will burn and purge. Another puritan Inquisitor may feel that, as long as a person loyally serves the Emperor and doesn't take things to the extremes that invite Slaanesh, their sexuality is a personal matter and is irrelevant.
Furthermore... Many reasonable Inquisitors don't care about your sexuality as long as it isn't a shameful secret someone can blackmail you with. Or any other secret, for that matter. Having secrets is often worse than having some insignificant vice that doesn't get in the way of your work.
Which reminds me, I've heard somewhere that reproductive activities between human and abhumans are forbidden, is it true? If so, in what publication is such things mentioned? Or if it is implied, how?
I haven't heard anything one way or the other in official fluff, but it is easy to infer from existing material that the IoM frowns on such relationships extra hard. Abhumans are barely considered human in most cases (Ogryns seem to get the most favorable treatment because they are so cute and cuddly, Ratlings are next best) and the IoM goes to great lengths to make everyone hate and fear mutants. True, abhumans are stable mutations (subspecies is a more accurate term) of humans, but that is a distinction that will be lost on the majority of Imperial citizens. "If it is different; it is wrong" is the general theme of the Ecclesiarchy and the Adeptus and the abhuman strains are definately different. Therefore, they are wrong. Therefore, a baseline human having sex with an abhuman is almost the same as having sex with a regular mutant (super-duper heresy). Now, the "tolerated" status of abhumans might make the relationship borederline accepted, but it would at best be pushing the boundaries of good taste to their absolute limit.
For example, I run a Dark Heresy game from time to time. The party has a female NPC Guardsman (of the Penal Trooper variety) who is a Beastman (she has wolf-like traits, rather than goat-like and was constructed using the Hive Mutant origin). She functions as extra muscle for the group. The players (and everyone else) refer to her as a mutant, but she loudly and repeatedly proclaims that she is an abhuman ("They don't let mutants into the Guard!") to anyone and everyone. Nobody particularly cares to see the distinction. She is tolerated by the group because she is loyal and useful, not because they like her. Recently, the party was sent on a mission along with the rest of the Beastwoman's IG group (a kill-team made up of members of several human regiments). Amongst the IG soldiers was a guy who was clearly involved in a sexual relationship with the Beastwoman (her name is Varro, by the way). This revelation disturbed the players to no end and colored their opinions of the rest of the IG kill-team because they tolerated such a gross abberation in their midst. Interestingly enough, the NPC who is shagging Varro isn't doing it because he likes her; he's doing it solely because she will sleep with him, which is something the other female members of the kill team won't do. The NPC attempted to woo each of the female troopers in turn and was rejected, with only the filthy abhuman freak willing to share a bedroll with him (and he had to buy her affections with a Triplex pattern lasgun). The relationship is not anything like healthy or loving, as the man is only interested in Varro because she is female (there isn't really any physical attraction there... at least not that anyone involved will admit to) and Varro is only interested because a) her partner keeps giving her things in exchange for her services and b) as an abhuman, she can't be choosy about her partners since she isn't likely to get many offers.
Imperial writ basically says that anything done in pursuit of pleasure is heretical.
It also says that things done to ensure the smooth running of the Imperium are to be endorsed.
Personally, I would read this as: "Be as gay or as het as you like, as long as you only have sex to stay sane and productive."
Another note: It's the Ultramarines who spend all their free time lounging around in bathrobes and getting oiled up by serfs together. Dark Angels are more into meditation and metaphorical self-flaggelation (while Imperial Fists are more into literal self-flaggelation).
Furyou Miko wrote: Imperial writ basically says that anything done in pursuit of pleasure is heretical.
It also says that things done to ensure the smooth running of the Imperium are to be endorsed.
Personally, I would read this as: "Be as gay or as het as you like, as long as you only have sex to stay sane and productive."
Another note: It's the Ultramarines who spend all their free time lounging around in bathrobes and getting oiled up by serfs together. Dark Angels are more into meditation and metaphorical self-flaggelation (while Imperial Fists are more into literal self-flaggelation).
If a Dark Angel isn't reading, being berated by an over zealous Chaplain, snooping on the older tomes and walking right into an Inner Circle meeting, being berated and forced to write the entire contents of a prayer book over and over, getting his gak figuratively kicked in by Asmodai, watching Asmodai getting his literal gak kicked in by Azrael or Sapphon, bolter drilling, sparring, berated by Asmodai, being berated by Belial, or just being plain berated by somebody, then he's sleeping.
Also, if a Dark Angel is meditating, then a Chaplain will burst in and berate him for not reading (but not too much) or drilling, but if he's drilling or reading, then a Chaplain will burst in and berate him for not meditating at the chapel.
Or more specifically, is there any GW & BL (and maybe FFG, with a grain of salt) fluff that shows whether it is generally seen as heresy for some one to participate in homosexual activities? Is the homosexual identity (as in, openly announcing that one is homosexual/bisexual, or being publicly known as a homosexual person) accepted/tolerated, at least on certain planets or even cities? Or is it all together persecuted? And please provide a citation of the sources.
There is, specifically, within the Eisenhorn and Ravenor series (especially in Ravenor), indications that the Imperium doesn't care about your sexuality, so long as your preference is exclusive to other human beings.
Or more specifically, is there any GW & BL (and maybe FFG, with a grain of salt) fluff that shows whether it is generally seen as heresy for some one to participate in homosexual activities? Is the homosexual identity (as in, openly announcing that one is homosexual/bisexual, or being publicly known as a homosexual person) accepted/tolerated, at least on certain planets or even cities? Or is it all together persecuted? And please provide a citation of the sources.
There is, specifically, within the Eisenhorn and Ravenor series (especially in Ravenor), indications that the Imperium doesn't care about your sexuality, so long as your preference is exclusive to other human beings.
The part that comes most-readily to mind is in Ravenor 3. The Inquisitor is doing his "mind reading on a major scale" deal, reading the minds of everyone in a Hive City within about twenty miles of his position, and encounters two young men (noted as being lovers) practicing for a theatrical play on the roof of their tenement.
That Abnett makes it a point to mention that these two characters are gay, but makes no further comment about it from the Inquisitor's perspective, indicates that it's just background details about these characters that have no bearing on their lives in the Imperium.
It probably would be considered as it was in the medieval era:
Homosexuality would be seen as something divergent, that is wrong, and could bring a punishment, as well as something far more accepted and/or fancied among the aristocracy.
Furyou Miko wrote: Imperial writ basically says that anything done in pursuit of pleasure is heretical.
It also says that things done to ensure the smooth running of the Imperium are to be endorsed.
Personally, I would read this as: "Be as gay or as het as you like, as long as you only have sex to stay sane and productive."
Another note: It's the Ultramarines who spend all their free time lounging around in bathrobes and getting oiled up by serfs together. Dark Angels are more into meditation and metaphorical self-flaggelation (while Imperial Fists are more into literal self-flaggelation).
If a Dark Angel isn't reading, being berated by an over zealous Chaplain, snooping on the older tomes and walking right into an Inner Circle meeting, being berated and forced to write the entire contents of a prayer book over and over, getting his gak figuratively kicked in by Asmodai, watching Asmodai getting his literal gak kicked in by Azrael or Sapphon, bolter drilling, sparring, berated by Asmodai, being berated by Belial, or just being plain berated by somebody, then he's sleeping.
Also, if a Dark Angel is meditating, then a Chaplain will burst in and berate him for not reading (but not too much) or drilling, but if he's drilling or reading, then a Chaplain will burst in and berate him for not meditating at the chapel.
I feel like berating the chaplain for berating everyone.
The proportion of the population that is gay or lesbian is around three to five percent. This is simply another statistic to them. A portion of the population that will not likely breed, but will still lead productive lives in the factory and thus still benefit the Imperium. The accountants of the Administratum take this in to consideration, and then move on to the next number.
I tend to agree with Melissa. to the Imperium at large people are just numbers. so long as you're loyally serving the imperium, filling your quotas etc. they seem not to care too much. things like banning homosexuality etc? out side the scope of the Imperium, I mean rememebr one of the biggest RULES of the Imperium is "worship the emperor" and even THAT has considerable leeway in HOW it's done. The only way I could see the Imperium stepping in is if somehow it became common eneugh that it was hurting birthrates. then the Imperium (proably through an inqusitor) might step in
It might vary from planet to planet, but I don't see the Imperium, in general, giving anything like a feth.
ETA:
The reason for this question is that I had a fluff discussion with a fellow gamer about the fundamentals of the Imperial Creed, and whether it should be viewed as a taken from fundamental Hebrew/Christian/Muslim principles; or rather it is a simple concept based on the exterior properties of religions IRL, concerning only the divinity of the Emperor.
By the time the Imperial Creed was being created, the religions of modern-day humanity were many, many, many thousands of years dead, gone and forgotten. The Imperial Creed and the Ecclesiarchy are depicted to us in more-or-less familiar ways, because it's being written by authors who are more-or-less familiar with modern-day religious institutions (and the history behind the same), but if it were real, there would be little to no similarity between the society of 40K and the society of today, or any of its institutions. So, in essence, the Imperial Creed/Ecclesiarchy is only Catholic "flavored", but is not, in actuality (or in-universe) based on Judaeo-Christian beliefs.
Psienesis wrote: By the time the Imperial Creed was being created, the religions of modern-day humanity were many, many, many thousands of years dead, gone and forgotten.
That is only assuming those religions will die off, which means assuming that they are not true. Which is what 40k does, and the only sensible choice .
Also, judeo-christian → christian.
Though, balancing that out, the heterosexual siblings of homosexuals tend to have higher-than-average numbers of children themselves. Might even be a net-gain for the Imperium.
Not if they are true. If one was true, it would have God/the gods regularly sending messengers or doing miracles or whether the hell to make sure people would continue to worship him. So, yeah, I agree, all religions die eventually .
Most people have hit it dead on; the Imperium doesn't care what you do, as long as it doesn't fall under the categories of mutant, alien, or heretic. Being gay does not prohibit you from working in the name of the God-Emperor, and it's not like population decline is a concern to the Imperium (most Hive Cities could repopulate the entire human race from extinction on their own with very little encouragement). The other thing is that things vary greatly from planet to planet because Planetary Governors have an awful lot of freedom within their jurisdiction, but in the context of the Imperium, I don't see why Governors would suddenly decide that homosexuality is evil. Our societal stigma is self-perpetuating, it doesn't come from nowhere. Also, it being considered Slaaneshi is rather absurd.
welshhoppo wrote: I read the title as LRBT. And I was wondering what could possibly be wrong with the Leman Russ.
I opened this thread because I had that exact question.
Not if they are true. If one was true, it would have God/the gods regularly sending messengers or doing miracles or whether the hell to make sure people would continue to worship him. So, yeah, I agree, all religions die eventually .
Proof denies faith... and even if there is "proof", there are always iconoclasts. There might even be oppositional deific forces who have mortal servants who completely eradicate the followers of another. After all, we can look back on the Sumerians (for example), to see some of the earliest examples of organized religion, but we have no proof that their gods did not actually exist... only that their cults were exterminated or assimilated into other, more-powerful cultures of the era. The argument could even be made that theirs are the only "true" gods... and what is worshipped now in the various religions of mankind are but poorly-remembered legends and pale shadows of the true Elder Gods, simplified and codified for a society that is more-easily controlled by monotheistic cults.
I would imagine that it varies from world to world. Some places won't care, others criminalize it as heresy. I can imagine intolerance being rife though- the 41st millennium brings out the worst in people.
This is why you go with Slaanesh- he/she/it welcomes all orientations (except asexuals because they're no fun). After all, Daemonettes are canonically futas in older fluff.
Rather than talking about truth and whatnot, I would like to point something out:
Religions do not die. They simply change. A case in point would be the fact that Animism, one of the most basic and crude forms of religion known, potentially the first religion, even, still has adherents.
Furyou Miko wrote: Rather than talking about truth and whatnot, I would like to point something out:
Religions do not die. They simply change. A case in point would be the fact that Animism, one of the most basic and crude forms of religion known, potentially the first religion, even, still has adherents.
Last I checked the Greek and Egyptian pantheons are as dead as the dodo and lack the power of any other scant remnants. They are not religions anymore.
Furyou Miko wrote: Rather than talking about truth and whatnot, I would like to point something out:
Religions do not die. They simply change. A case in point would be the fact that Animism, one of the most basic and crude forms of religion known, potentially the first religion, even, still has adherents.
Last I checked the Greek and Egyptian pantheons are as dead as the dodo and lack the power of any scant remnants they have to muscle in as religions.
Yu-Gi-Oh! would like a word about the Egyptian pantheon
Furyou Miko wrote: Rather than talking about truth and whatnot, I would like to point something out:
Religions do not die. They simply change. A case in point would be the fact that Animism, one of the most basic and crude forms of religion known, potentially the first religion, even, still has adherents.
Last I checked the Greek and Egyptian pantheons are as dead as the dodo and lack the power of any scant remnants they have to muscle in as religions.
Yet influences from ancient Greek and Egyptian religions still remain in present-day religions. Religion never dies, it merely changes. People go from worshipping one god to the other, and in doing so, they will take things from their former religion and fit it into the new one. Just look at the Christian holidays for a good example.
In one of the BL novels (Gaunts ghosts I think, not sure) it talks about how a man fell in love with one of the characters, but he rejected him, and so the man killed himself. It words it in a way that suggests there is no particular attitude one way or another to homosexuality, and that homosexuality is seen as normal, but not necessarily common, the characters were more affected by the mans' death; the fact he was homosexual, was irrelevant.
Imperial religion would most likely have very little to say on the matter, as long as devotion to the emperor and your quota was observed; bear in mind by the time of the horus heresy, humanity was VERY progressive, and while this has kinda changed by the 41st millenium, their religion was influenced heavily by this period of time.
A Town Called Malus wrote: [Because it kinda reads like the guy was a paedophile, which is a bit dark for GW....
Yeah, it does kinda reads that way. I do not think it is too dark for 40k, just too… potentially controversial. Too linked to real-world issues, actually.
blaktoof wrote: For a long time GW has strayed from sexuality as a large part of the target market (US/UK) has issues with talking about sexuality, but not violence.
This has even shown up as a toning down of models that were female, GW probably has less female models now then ever in its history.
blaktoof wrote: For a long time GW has strayed from sexuality as a large part of the target market (US/UK) has issues with talking about sexuality, but not violence.
This has even shown up as a toning down of models that were female, GW probably has less female models now then ever in its history.
pewter blister pack, which was originally released in 6th edition FB, dark elves sixth edition was released in 2001 so yeah the model is 13 years old. How many of the new fb witches are bare chested? none. Morathi is there, and so are the harpies but those models are all over a decade old.
was the original sculpt and they just made it into finecast resin from that same sculpt which you can get direct only now.
I've read quite a lot of books which point to promiscuity amongst the Imperial Guard [as women make up a significant portion]. If sexual relationships within the Imperial Guard are allowed, I don't see why this would exclude lesbian and gay relationships, and have not read anything which would suggest this is the case. I guess the Emp has far bigger things to think about!
Marines though... there does seem to be a lot of bromance, but seeing as all indications have them either being sterlised or castrated, I don't think it goes beyond deep tissue massages, shared baths and energetic wrestling matches.
yeah, as its a table top game about war, and the fluff/background mostly is in support of that we probably aren't going to get much fluff on peoples interpersonal fornication preferences or romances.
"I move my slaanesh pleasure lord to within 6" of your space marine captain, he/she gives a longing glance to the space marine captain and rolls a sexy look test, make a leadership test or hit on me while you stare at the pleasure lords mono-boob."
or
"The hive tyrant charges your guardsmen blob. Commissar Lord Kell looks sternly at his troops, they look at him wanting to run in abject terror and Kell notices the guardsmen closest to him is Steven Sharpe, Kell has always loved Steven so dearly ever since that time on Istavaan IV, Kell bites down hard and holds back a tear as he raises his bolt pistol, "the emperors moralizer" and points it squarely at Stevens head. Steve freezes in place and stares from the barrel of the bolt pistol forwards deep into Kells eyes because he felt it too back on Istavaan IV, and if hes going to go he wants the commissar he loves to be the one to do it not some hell spawned tyranid monstrosity.
Kell closes his eyes, and slides his finger from the side of the bolt pistol to the trigger, Steven closes his eyes and waits for the inevitable darkness to wash over him. BLAT BLAT THUNK. Kell at the last moment moved the bolt pistol slightly to the left and executed Charles Worthington III who merely happened to be standing by Steven, Kell drops his bolt pistol and runs into Stevens arms. They embrace each other, their unspoken love at last rushing over them and covering their skin in goose bumps as they pull in towards one another for a kiss..before their lips touch a searing hot lightning bolt of pain ruptures through both of them and all is lost as the hive tyrants scything talons arc through the air like murderous reaping scythes cleaving through each of the unrequited lovers from the top of their skulls downwards- splitting them in twain in two fountains of red gore and hot crimson mist. The guardsmen surrounding them drop their guns and attempt to flee the indescribable horror that begins rampaging through their ranks only to be cut down as they slip and fall over the slick bloodied ground beneath them, cowering in utter fear from the Hive tyrant as it lays waste to the guardsmen leaving barely a trace of discernible visceral mass among the once grassy field. The hive tyrant rears its head howling out a triumphant screech into the grim dark of the night signalling the horde of scuttling termagants swarming behind it forward..."
Dark Elf Witches have always been chainmail bikini types rather than naked. Always. I think there might have been a naked one on the Throne of Blood. Maybe.
yeah, as its a table top game about war, and the fluff/background mostly is in support of that we probably aren't going to get much fluff on peoples interpersonal fornication preferences or romances.
"I move my slaanesh pleasure lord to within 6" of your space marine captain, he/she gives a longing glance to the space marine captain and rolls a sexy look test, make a leadership test or hit on me while you stare at the pleasure lords mono-boob."
or
"The hive tyrant charges your guardsmen blob. Commissar Lord Kell looks sternly at his troops, they look at him wanting to run in abject terror and Kell notices the guardsmen closest to him is Steven Sharpe, Kell has always loved Steven so dearly ever since that time on Istavaan IV, Kell bites down hard and holds back a tear as he raises his bolt pistol, "the emperors moralizer" and points it squarely at Stevens head. Steve freezes in place and stares from the barrel of the bolt pistol forwards deep into Kells eyes because he felt it too back on Istavaan IV, and if hes going to go he wants the commissar he loves to be the one to do it not some hell spawned tyranid monstrosity.
Kell closes his eyes, and slides his finger from the side of the bolt pistol to the trigger, Steven closes his eyes and waits for the inevitable darkness to wash over him. BLAT BLAT THUNK. Kell at the last moment moved the bolt pistol slightly to the left and executed Charles Worthington III who merely happened to be standing by Steven, Kell drops his bolt pistol and runs into Stevens arms. They embrace each other, their unspoken love at last rushing over them and covering their skin in goose bumps as they pull in towards one another for a kiss..before their lips touch a searing hot lightning bolt of pain ruptures through both of them and all is lost as the hive tyrants scything talons arc through the air like murderous reaping scythes cleaving through each of the unrequited lovers from the top of their skulls downwards- splitting them in twain in two fountains of red gore and hot crimson mist. The guardsmen surrounding them drop their guns and attempt to flee the indescribable horror that begins rampaging through their ranks only to be cut down as they slip and fall over the slick bloodied ground beneath them, cowering in utter fear from the Hive tyrant as it lays waste to the guardsmen leaving barely a trace of discernible visceral mass among the once grassy field. The hive tyrant rears its head howling out a triumphant screech into the grim dark of the night signalling the horde of scuttling termagants swarming behind it forward..."
ya forging the narrative pewpew!
And here I was thinking that 40k couldn't get more homoerotic
Furyou Miko wrote: Dark Elf Witches have always been chainmail bikini types rather than naked. Always. I think there might have been a naked one on the Throne of Blood. Maybe.
Don't you talk about my wyches' banana hammocks! I can't find a good picture of them, so here:
A Town Called Malus wrote: [Because it kinda reads like the guy was a paedophile, which is a bit dark for GW....
Yeah, it does kinda reads that way. I do not think it is too dark for 40k, just too… potentially controversial. Too linked to real-world issues, actually.
It is funny that massacring entire worlds full of innocent people is perfectly fine, but a single pedophile is too dark
blaktoof wrote: For a long time GW has strayed from sexuality as a large part of the target market (US/UK) has issues with talking about sexuality, but not violence.
This has even shown up as a toning down of models that were female, GW probably has less female models now then ever in its history.
Yeah but how old is that model? At least 13 years old as it is in the Dark Elf army book 2 books before the current one
They did release very scantily clad new DE witch elves though...
blaktoof wrote: yeah, as its a table top game about war, and the fluff/background mostly is in support of that we probably aren't going to get much fluff on peoples interpersonal fornication preferences or romances.
"I move my slaanesh pleasure lord to within 6" of your space marine captain, he/she gives a longing glance to the space marine captain and rolls a sexy look test, make a leadership test or hit on me while you stare at the pleasure lords mono-boob."
or
"The hive tyrant charges your guardsmen blob. Commissar Lord Kell looks sternly at his troops, they look at him wanting to run in abject terror and Kell notices the guardsmen closest to him is Steven Sharpe, Kell has always loved Steven so dearly ever since that time on Istavaan IV, Kell bites down hard and holds back a tear as he raises his bolt pistol, "the emperors moralizer" and points it squarely at Stevens head. Steve freezes in place and stares from the barrel of the bolt pistol forwards deep into Kells eyes because he felt it too back on Istavaan IV, and if hes going to go he wants the commissar he loves to be the one to do it not some hell spawned tyranid monstrosity.
Kell closes his eyes, and slides his finger from the side of the bolt pistol to the trigger, Steven closes his eyes and waits for the inevitable darkness to wash over him. BLAT BLAT THUNK. Kell at the last moment moved the bolt pistol slightly to the left and executed Charles Worthington III who merely happened to be standing by Steven, Kell drops his bolt pistol and runs into Stevens arms. They embrace each other, their unspoken love at last rushing over them and covering their skin in goose bumps as they pull in towards one another for a kiss..before their lips touch a searing hot lightning bolt of pain ruptures through both of them and all is lost as the hive tyrants scything talons arc through the air like murderous reaping scythes cleaving through each of the unrequited lovers from the top of their skulls downwards- splitting them in twain in two fountains of red gore and hot crimson mist. The guardsmen surrounding them drop their guns and attempt to flee the indescribable horror that begins rampaging through their ranks only to be cut down as they slip and fall over the slick bloodied ground beneath them, cowering in utter fear from the Hive tyrant as it lays waste to the guardsmen leaving barely a trace of discernible visceral mass among the once grassy field. The hive tyrant rears its head howling out a triumphant screech into the grim dark of the night signalling the horde of scuttling termagants swarming behind it forward..."
blaktoof wrote: This has even shown up as a toning down of models that were female, GW probably has less female models now then ever in its history.
I suspect that is less about 'sexuality is icky in the US/UK" and more about "10 year old boys think girls are icky". Target demographics and all that.
blaktoof wrote: This has even shown up as a toning down of models that were female, GW probably has less female models now then ever in its history.
I suspect that is less about 'sexuality is icky in the US/UK" and more about "10 year old boys think girls are icky". Mental age of the design studio and all that.
blaktoof wrote: This has even shown up as a toning down of models that were female, GW probably has less female models now then ever in its history.
I suspect that is less about 'sexuality is icky in the US/UK" and more about "10 year old boys think girls are icky". Mental age of the design studio and all that.
Fixed that for you
*snort* lol.
I'm still inclined to blame a 'marketing department with too much power' for it, but I'm inclined to blame those for, well, every problem ever.
As for the Topic itself.
Large Imperial Organisations (AdMech, Administratum, Guard, DM, Imperial Navy etc) almost certainly don't give a feth, one way or the other. The numbers are too large, the desperation to great. This also means though that individual worlds and cultures are going to be left to make their own decisions on these matters. There will be worlds where it is ok, even worlds where it may be encouraged, but also worlds where LGBT would be systematical persecuted, as deviants and mutants. The thing to realize is that the greater imperial authorities are not likely to step in in any case. A world could ritually burn LGBTs every weekend, and the imperium would not care so long as the world kept paying their tithes.
The really extreme ends may get Inquisitorial interest, but only in relation to the possibility that a world's cultural relationship with it's LGBTs population might be Chaos related.
blaktoof wrote: For a long time GW has strayed from sexuality as a large part of the target market (US/UK) has issues with talking about sexuality, but not violence.
This has even shown up as a toning down of models that were female, GW probably has less female models now then ever in its history.
And a reduction of mono-breast slaaneshi hermphrodites, as well as the toning down of daemonettes.
I think the imperium overall is probably much like our planet, where some nations are okay with it, some don't care, and some are russia.
I really miss the old daemonettes. They actually looked like succubi.
Wyzilla wrote: I really miss the old daemonettes. They actually looked like succubi.
Yeah, I know what you mean. Hell, even leaving aside the idea that they were a better execution of the idea of Deamonettes (which they really really were), they were also just really well sculpted models, and it's always a shame to see a great sculpt retired.
I doubt the Imperium itself gives a damn. So long as your partner doesn't have an extra limb growing out from somewhere they more than likely don't care. Since we've had zero reference to the Imperium outlawing or even looking down upon homosexuality - as opposed to the Imperial Truth basically requiring atheism for example (or rather, it did back in the day) - there's no reason to really assume there's an enforced intolerance of it.
On the "but what about breeding" side of things... the Imperium has a lot of people. A LOT. Hive Worlds and such are regularly described as being overpopulated, people live crappy, malnourished, cramped lives. Unless you're a noblewoman who is expected to produce heirs or living on an explicitly underpopulated world, again, there's probably no enforcement of it. Cain certainly didn't give a toss and he was a Commissar so you'd think that something like that would fall under his mandate if the Imperium dictated who you could boink.
At the end if the day, the Imperium is so vast that yes, there's probably some worlds with a culture that looks down on it. When you're an empire of a million worlds there's probably a planet enforcing men to sleep with cattle as a right of passage or eat sandpaper. But the Imperium as a whole? I don't think so.
Wyzilla wrote: I really miss the old daemonettes. They actually looked like succubi.
Yeah, I know what you mean. Hell, even leaving aside the idea that they were a better execution of the idea of Deamonettes (which they really really were), they were also just really well sculpted models, and it's always a shame to see a great sculpt retired.
It's hard to believe that even with an aura of attractiveness, that they could convince anybody to go Slaanesh from seduction.
Cain certainly didn't give a toss and he was a Commissar so you'd think that something like that would fall under his mandate if the Imperium dictated who you could boink.
True but to play devils advocate - Cain is a bit unusual.............on the other Hand I don't think Gaunt (or any other Commissar) would be too choosy if the solider in question was prepered to fight and die.
That being said - the thing that the Imperium of Man wants in its soldiers is someone who will fight and die for it, prefereably without question - now personal relationships of any persuasion could coneivably threaten this hence there are rules about undue fratanisation in the Imperial Military (and as we have these days)
Civilian life is a little different - its going to depend lots on the society of your world and who you are on that world.....remember Nobles can have living pleasure dolls and other devient behaviour which is usually not looked in to - I think that House Harkonan in Dune is goign to be pretty accurate picture of many Noble families, so just choosing the same sex rather than the opposite is going to be pase?. Lower classes will vary hugely in their views?
Oh, in the guard, it seems pretty clear to me. You can get sex, no problem, but love? Does not matter if you are homosexual or heterosexual, your only love should be your duty!
Psienesis wrote: There were those two in the Ghosts. Tanya and Danael? Adopted the kid. Criid and... whatever his name was?
But, then, you know, tragic results because it's a war story and all.
Tona Criid and Dermon(?) Caffran got married, yeah. They were then split up into different Companies to make sure that if one of them died, the other would survive to continue providing for the children. I think that's how it went, anyway. Kind of like how in the modern Navy, married couples aren't allowed to serve on the same ship.
Furyou Miko wrote: Rather than talking about truth and whatnot, I would like to point something out:
Religions do not die. They simply change. A case in point would be the fact that Animism, one of the most basic and crude forms of religion known, potentially the first religion, even, still has adherents.
Last I checked the Greek and Egyptian pantheons are as dead as the dodo and lack the power of any other scant remnants. They are not religions anymore.
The Greek pantheon is a subset of Indo-European paganism as a whole (as are the Norse, Celtic, Slavic, etc. pantheons, as well as the one I am about to get to).
There is a surviving version of Indo-European paganism that has a lot of adherents. It's called Hinduism.
Furyou Miko wrote: Rather than talking about truth and whatnot, I would like to point something out:
Religions do not die. They simply change. A case in point would be the fact that Animism, one of the most basic and crude forms of religion known, potentially the first religion, even, still has adherents.
Last I checked the Greek and Egyptian pantheons are as dead as the dodo and lack the power of any other scant remnants. They are not religions anymore.
The Greek pantheon is a subset of Indo-European paganism as a whole (as are the Norse, Celtic, Slavic, etc. pantheons, as well as the one I am about to get to).
There is a surviving version of Indo-European paganism that has a lot of adherents. It's called Hinduism.
Simply coming from the same continent as other religious groups does not mean something is at all related. Hinduism is by no means a continuation of the Greek/Roman pantheon.
Furyou Miko wrote: Rather than talking about truth and whatnot, I would like to point something out:
Religions do not die. They simply change. A case in point would be the fact that Animism, one of the most basic and crude forms of religion known, potentially the first religion, even, still has adherents.
Last I checked the Greek and Egyptian pantheons are as dead as the dodo and lack the power of any other scant remnants. They are not religions anymore.
The Greek pantheon is a subset of Indo-European paganism as a whole (as are the Norse, Celtic, Slavic, etc. pantheons, as well as the one I am about to get to).
There is a surviving version of Indo-European paganism that has a lot of adherents. It's called Hinduism.
Simply coming from the same continent as other religious groups does not mean something is at all related. Hinduism is by no means a continuation of the Greek/Roman pantheon.
It's not a continuation; they're both continuations of something else. The G/R pantheon and the Hindu pantheon come from the same common religion of the proto-Indo-Europeans who migrated west and south. What it was we don't exactly know, since they didn't have writing, but almost certainly some kind of polytheism with anthropomorphic gods (probably a a storm god among them, since he crops up in several of these pantheons). So the European branch that evolved from that religion is dead, but the Indian one survives.
We do know very very little about ancient Hellenistic religion really, and anybody who claims to be continuing it is really... not, because we know very little of what it was.
The modern form of pre-Christian paganism (not Greek, but in general) is really Hinduism. Somebody who wants to be a pagan can just go be a Hindu.
Alcibiades wrote: We do know very very little about ancient Hellenistic religion really, and anybody who claims to be continuing it is really... not, because we know very little of what it was.
The modern form of pre-Christian paganism (not Greek, but in general) is really Hinduism. Somebody who wants to be a pagan can just go be a Hindu.
The Eldar don't have a cultural concept of 'gender roles' beyond the mythic.
They also have a strange relationship with masks.
When an Eldar, male or female, dons the war mask of the Howling Banshees shrine, that Eldar is considered to be female, because they are a Banshee - the Aspect of Morai Heg.
Similarly, when an Eldar dons the war mask of the Dire Avenger, that Eldar is male, because they are an avatar of Asuryan.
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