I'm kinda appalled at the horrible state the Chaos miniatures range still is - a lot of the range dates back to the early 2000s, if not late 90s unless I'm mistaken. It's painfully costly to build a full size legion marine squad, not to mention that they stil end up looking ugly as sin, and I don't mean that in a good chaosy way.

In fact even some of the newer models GW has released look hideously ugly - the biggest eyesore of them all being mutilators. I love the Chaos vehicles though. And cultists are also well done, as are most of the HQs especially the Warsmith. I love the aesthetics of the WHFB's Warriors of Chaos btw. Still...am I the only one or do the majority of Chaos players agree that CSM are in bad need of a major redesign?

They do not look like outright crap but they sure do need updating.

I think all space marines are bad. But Chaos ones moreso. If I played Chaos for some reason id just take normal Marines and change them up a bit. The lesser of 2 evils.

I like the CSM models, at least most of them.

I agree. There are a lot of problems with the basic CSM kits, including age and downright ugliness. Khorne Berserkers and Chaos Space Marines need redone. What I like about Chaos Marines is the ancient, supposedly "Baroque" style of armour. I don't like them when they're just Marines with spikes, silly gloves, missing bolter magazines, and daemon faces all over their wargear.

The Chosen from Dark Vengeance are great and it's a pity they never took that aesthetic any further. There were rumours, but nothing ever came of them.

Chaos has the problem of having all the very different types under one roof. If the Dark Angels had to use the same bits as Ultramarines, there'd be a problem there, but Chaos players of Tzeentch are expected to use the same Terminators and bog standard Marines or Cultists as a Khorne player. A Nurgle Obliterator is just painted greener than a Slanneshi Obliterator. There's no diversity apart from the Plague/Noise/Thousand Sons and Beserker range of Elite choices. Everything else has to be Forge World and a lot of players don't go through that hassle.

So yeah, they need an update to better show off the diversity available.

The terrible Chaos Marine models are why I never pursued my
Tall Scale Chaos Marine project further than the one model. They're just terrible, all the way around.

I was looking at the sprues and only like a quarter of the heads were usable, and the legs and torsos were very... meh.

Not to mention the stupid belt-fed bolterbortions.

Indeed id like to see some older armour marks and rather more modifications.

DV chaos are alright but brass trim on everything doesnt feel as evil as it should to me, id rather see flayed skin's, older armour marks, modifications, battlefield repairs etc

.

I voted yes mainly due to that they desperately need an overhaul.

However I love converting, I am in the process of converting Warriors of Chaos; Chaos Warriors into Chosen, with that baroque style armour and capes (you gotta have capes)

Berzerkers are great at converting into Thousand Sons (just remove the Khorne Iconography) and whooska you have T-Sons

As for Termies well you have plenty of aftermarket kit to do them justice, at the mo' I have plans to use current Termie parts with the Chaos Termie Lord to build a complete Justaerin Terminator squad for Abaddon.

Folks have to get creative, it's called kit bashing, use it or lose it.

Just because you can make up for GW's shortcomings doesn't mean that you should have to, though.

I think all the CSM miniatures most recently done have been pretty good, but everything before that has generally bad or lacking.

Alot of Chaos' miniatures have been the proving ground for GW's new sculptors. That's really pushed the overall quality down. I feel with the newest run of minis they realized this.

The Chaos Space marines I think finally got good basic marine models from the starter box. If they could translate those miniatures into a multi-part kit, that'd be what Chaos deserves. Can you imagine how nice the Cult marines would look with that quality of detail?

The majority of previous chaos miniatures simply followed the school of thought that spikey bits are the only thing that distinguishes chaos aesthetically. Maybe the move away from that has had its downsides, but even for those who don't like how the newer daemon engines look a simple comparison of defiler to forgefiend and helldrake you can see higher production value GW's trying to bring to chaos.

I hate the dinobots. LIke, really hate them.

I don't dislike the bog standard CSM, it's just a bit meh. As mentioned, I'd like to see them be more of an amalgamation of older power armour.

Standard chaos marines yes, DV chosen are a bit better but I find them neither menacing nor insane enough, lots of bling that just screams missed oportunity to me. Both can be fixed by kitbashing with possesed box but as said before, would be nice to have proper not pg13 chaos out of the box.

Maulerfiend and Helldrake are crap too, fantasyish and toylike. Forgefiend is a bit better and using its head for mauler and drake helps imo but still nothing groundbraking. Hellbrute is ok except too much horns, horns are new spikes also stupid naming hellscheme.

Plague and noise marines are ok, so are thousand sons. Berserkers are funny.

Ahriman, kharn and typhus are very good imo, quite suprisingly given their age.

Obliterators and mutilators well I was offered good recasts for 2$ equivalent each and I refused.

Bikes are pathetic.


The way I do chaos is destroying starter or DV marines for plague marines or kitbashing DV with possesed bits. Also tons of forgeworld but sadly I need to sell it because money.

Didn't the basic CM get updated in 6th? or was it just a rebox?
I think it was an update...
Anyway, its pretty damn good.
It also has tons of spare bitz, some to donate to god-afilliations, some just to have high customization (for example, the 10 man squad has 24 heads in 15 unique shapes! enough bolters, swords and pistols to have any setup)
And you got the banners and plenty of bling bits to make them truly as you see fit. and you can easily kitbash them with loyalists when making bigger groups to make even more unique teams (loyalists box and chaos box=20 super custom chaos dudes.)
Basic CSM need no update.

As for others, sure, some of the old models look a bit odd, but if we look at newer kits?
Dinobots are not for everyone-but they look GREAT.
New characters are looking good. (warpsmite and apostle)
Helbrute? awesome.
Cultist? too bad only premades, but they are cool.
Mutilators? ugly bastards, but they are mutated and warped beyond all reasona, they are not supposed to be "pretty", they are supposed to be "nasty", and they are.


The CSM needs some updates to the really old models, no more...

I love the look of all the newer stuff, but the core box being so at odds with the great new aesthetic is what puts me off a CSM. Redo the CSM box in style of the Raptors/Chosen and the quality/content of the new Tactical Squad and I'd be chaosing before you can say 'kill, maim, burn'!

I like the look of then when painted but I've realised they are awful to paint, I don't enjoy them at all. They have none of what make Space Marines appealing. Smooth lines and plates, places to customize and mostly primary colours (CSM, especially new ones, have plenty of places that are metallic in nature).

I returned to the game, sort of, after a 4 year gap and was surprised that Chaos had plenty of new "big" kits, but still had the old CSM box (that looks like they have been left in the sun for too long) and almost no non-character HQ models. My main thought was "Where are all the Sorcerers?"

I would also agree with Sharkoutofwata - the range as a whole seems to suffer from trying to shove everything under a single banner of "Chaos Marines" and is in dire need of either conversion kits (perhaps in with the main boxes?) or independent boxes. I heard a rumour years ago that they were thinking of splitting the legions from later traitors, which would have been great and has plenty of potential.

I never liked the Fantasy Chaos Warrior look they have. Too much baroque and not enough these are 10,000 year old warriors. They should look closer to the HH legion minuatures IMO.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Didn't the basic CM get updated in 6th? or was it just a rebox?
I think it was an update...
Anyway, its pretty damn good.
It also has tons of spare bitz, some to donate to god-afilliations, some just to have high customization (for example, the 10 man squad has 24 heads in 15 unique shapes! enough bolters, swords and pistols to have any setup)
And you got the banners and plenty of bling bits to make them truly as you see fit. and you can easily kitbash them with loyalists when making bigger groups to make even more unique teams (loyalists box and chaos box=20 super custom chaos dudes.)
Basic CSM need no update.

It was just a rebox. You are right in that the amount of content in the kit is wonderful, especially given how the Tactical Squad box lacked the majority of options (including a power fist) until the recent update. The problem is that it just isn't good stuff, especially not the bolters. The enormous horns are a little off-putting, especially when they meet in the middle with a skull. It just doesn't look good. The Finecast Aspiring Champion has good horns.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Dinobots are not for everyone-but they look GREAT.

I like them a lot. I prefer my Daemon Engines to be as mechanical as possible, but the amount of flesh isn't too bad. That said, the Heldrake really needs something on its rear. A tail or proper legs (rather than the ludicrous miniature turkey legs that earned it the name Hellturkey) would be great. I know what they were trying to do, in that it's supposed to look like a Hellblade that's warped into a dragon, but they really should have gone all-out dragon rather than trying to keep the stubby rear of the Hellblade, because it works on the aircraft but not on a dragon. I'm currently adding Sentinel legs to my Heldrake, and it seems to fix this quite effectively. As for the 'fiends, I love the Forgefiend. I'm not really a fan (although I don't hate it) of the Maulerfiend arms, or the non-ectoplasma (oh god, that name) head. It has a sort of sly look to it that suggests it knows something you don't and is quite pleased about it. The plasma head is brilliant, though. It's a pity the Forgefiend didn't get more weapon options, as a flamer head in a similar style to the plasma one would be wonderful. I can just imagine the chest glowing as it prepares to vomit a stream of Warpfire, which would be especially good considering the relatively short range of its weapons and how often they mention "ectoplasmic drool".

 BoomWolf wrote:
New characters are looking good. (warpsmite and apostle)

I like the Warpsmith a lot, but the Dark Apostle looks a bit silly. His face, pose, and roll upon roll of toilet paper stuck to him don't do him any favours.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Helbrute? awesome.

I love Dreadnoughts, and a lot about the Helbrute (oh god, that name) is cool, but I don't like it. Maybe it's just because I don't really like the "fleshy" side of Chaos.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Cultist? too bad only premades, but they are cool.

They're okay. I like the one with the hood and gasmask. Their Chaos icons look like they've got shuriken stuck to them, though, and they really should be a kit rather than premades.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Mutilators? ugly bastards, but they are mutated and warped beyond all reasona, they are not supposed to be "pretty", they are supposed to be "nasty", and they are.

They look like Terminators covered in melted cheese with extra spikes. There's so much more potential with the "possessed Terminator" look. Obliterators at least have the excuse of being ancient models. They really don't achieve what they're supposed to with that look.

You didn't mention the Raptors. I like parts of them, but some of their helmets are just bad and it would be better to have done something like the Raptors from the Space Marine game, whose helmets maintain the old look while being in proportion to a normal helmet. I do like that they removed the weird feet and replaced them with spiked boots. Their mutated lightning claw arms are great, though covering everything in lightning patterns isn't really a substitute for good design. Also, mouths on their jump pack harness? Really?

EDIT: It would be great if they made a core CSM box with "supplemental" additions in a similar manner as the Blood Angels and Space Wolves get. Far be it from me to dare suggest that GW treat armies in any way close to equal, but it would fit so well. They could do five-man boxes of varying theme that could be combined with the core CSM box to flavour them that way.

Yes, they need an update. They are still using the same designs from 8 years ago.

Didn't Space Marines receive a minor update?

Quite a nice update, actually. They weren't in need of an aesthetic overhaul and they didn't get one, but they were updated quite well. They filled a few of the glaring wargear gaps from the previous box. They also added grav weapons and finally gave the missile launcher the backpack Devastators get, so that missile launcher Marines in a Tactical Squad have more than one shot available to them, and finally added the missing power weapons. A lot of the molded-on purity seals were removed, which I am very thankful for.

I only got a glance over the contents of the new Tactical box, but it was very impressive in comparison to what came before.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Quite a nice update, actually. They weren't in need of an aesthetic overhaul and they didn't get one, but they were updated quite well. They filled a few of the glaring wargear gaps from the previous box. They also added grav weapons and finally gave the missile launcher the backpack Devastators get, so that missile launcher Marines in a Tactical Squad have more than one shot available to them, and finally added the missing power weapons. A lot of the molded-on purity seals were removed, which I am very thankful for.

I only got a glance over the contents of the new Tactical box, but it was very impressive in comparison to what came before.

Aye, the new Tactical Squad kit is great, and gives me high hopes for the eventual Assault Marine (probably coming with BA) and CSM updates. The variety and quality in the kit is exception, it really is one of the best out there for the newcomer or the modelling veteran.

It really is. I forgot to mention my hope for a new Assault Marine box of the same quality (I got the idea from you, actually, in the Blood Angels thread)!

With the speed of updates, it won't be too long before Chaos are the oldest book. I doubt that they will, but it'd be nice for them to take the chance to update them properly.

The chaos marines box doesn't really fit what they're supposed to look like (as described in fluff) and the Dino-bots are.... well, they look more Power Rangers than 40k.

They don't look crappy, they just look kinda dated. If they matched the aesthetics of newer releases like Dark Vengeance and the Raptor kit they'd be golden. As is they still look very 4th edition.

 MWHistorian wrote:
The chaos marines box doesn't really fit what they're supposed to look like (as described in fluff) and the Dino-bots are.... well, they look more Power Rangers than 40k.

People have different opinions on the aesthetics, but I think its important to underscore that even if they aren't the best looking, they're better made and have more production value than anything else chaos has previously had.

Chaos' vehicles are as much in shambles as the rest of the chaos miniature line. It took a long time just to get a truly unique vehicle for Chaos, the Defiler, but just like other parts of the chaos miniature line its poor execution. The Forgefiend and Helldrake, GW tried something different and they're aesthetically inadequate for a different set of reasons, but I think GW at least tried this time.

It all comes from the fact that GW hasn't given enough thought to how chaos should fit into the game and how all the different descriptions of chaos should translate into the models. Daemon engines were the logical avenue of to introduce distinctively chaos models and fluffy distinguishing tech. The problem is that after years and years of talking about daemon engines they introduce the defiler and then these other two, but without any sort of aesthetic consistency. The Defiler fails because its the simplistic school of thought of "chaos = spikes". The newer daemon engines were better because GW was atleast thinking about the warping and twisted ways of chaos that distort machines. I understand why they went with two types of dragon like forms; they wanted to preserve the sense of mythology that characterizes chaos as a threat. I think people would have accepted them better had they made them look like large enslaved daemons as opposed to larger versions of the Bloodcrusher/juggernaut. The models fail for some poor choices but largely they do fit established aesthetics and concepts.

Chaos has in many ways had the most varied aesthetics over the years. Those contrasts are why its so apparent why the model range has problems.

 aka_mythos wrote:
The newer daemon engines were better because GW was atleast thinking about the warping and twisted ways of chaos that distort machines. I understand why they went with two types of dragon like forms; they wanted to preserve the sense of mythology that characterizes chaos as a threat. I think people would have accepted them better had they made them look like large enslaved daemons as opposed to larger versions of the Bloodcrusher/juggernaut. The models fail for some poor choices but largely they do fit established aesthetics and concepts

They went for drake because of the blatant fantasyish direction you can see on newcrons or most recently taurox and tempestus scions. Evrrybody knows its fantasy in space it does not need to jump in your face like that, also helldrake is not menacing in the slightest.

Juggernaut is imo one of the best models in 40k and Id love the large version of it, sadly maulerfiend is not. I even tried to slap juggernaut head on maulerfiend but I failed (not sure why as I think I saw it done right, not sure though). Maulerfiend is too round and nice, maybe GW is high on the possibility to do curves and the effect is more and more warmachiney models. The idea to go for bigger juggernaut is the best one they could have made imo but they failed on execution.

the new ones arnt that great either (raptors). the squiggly lines they put all up and down all over the armour ruins it for me. were they going for lightning bolts? whatever it's supposed to be, it looks like crap. also makes the models too busy, and not in a good way.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
The newer daemon engines were better because GW was atleast thinking about the warping and twisted ways of chaos that distort machines. I understand why they went with two types of dragon like forms; they wanted to preserve the sense of mythology that characterizes chaos as a threat. I think people would have accepted them better had they made them look like large enslaved daemons as opposed to larger versions of the Bloodcrusher/juggernaut. The models fail for some poor choices but largely they do fit established aesthetics and concepts

They went for drake because of the blatant fantasyish direction you can see on newcrons or most recently taurox and tempestus scions. Evrrybody knows its fantasy in space it does not need to jump in your face like that, also helldrake is not menacing in the slightest.

Juggernaut is imo one of the best models in 40k and Id love the large version of it, sadly maulerfiend is not. I even tried to slap juggernaut head on maulerfiend but I failed (not sure why as I think I saw it done right, not sure though). Maulerfiend is too round and nice, maybe GW is high on the possibility to do curves and the effect is more and more warmachiney models. The idea to go for bigger juggernaut is the best one they could have made imo but they failed on execution.

The vast majority of the Forgefiend from its proportions to some of the details draw a clear line of inspiration from the Juggernaut. The head is lacking, the pose is lacking, but its more good than bad and its simply better than most of the chaos models we previously received.

40k is a sci-fi fanatsy game; space elves, dark space elves, orks, space robo-skeletons, if those aren't "blatant" already... Tempestus scions, I think were well done; from the fluff stand point they come from the same schools and worlds as Sisters of Battle and their new aesthetic gives them an equally higher empire sort of aesthetic that distinguishes them as elite troops equipped and trained wholly by the Imperium as opposed to being formed by local planetary governments as tithes.

The Helldrake not being menacing... very little in 40k is, even when its meant to be. I'm not saying the Helldrake is perfect but it gets across machine twisted by the warp "daemon engine" more than the defiler. What should a living daemon machine look like if not some sort of bestial form?

The thing about the Heldrake is that it, unlike other Daemon Engines, is a vehicle that has been possessed and warped so heavily that it no longer resembles its original form. Other Daemon Engines were purpose-built to be as such and then had daemons bound into them.

While I like the Forgefiend a lot (only with the plasma head), I agree that it could have been better. I love Defilers (and ultra-mechanical Daemon Engines), but I still don't own one. It'll take work to make it look how I want, like the Heldrake.

The issue I have with the Defiler is primarily that it's too large for what it is; pretty close to knight size by volume but representing something much less. It's foot print should be much closer to the other daemon engines or its rules should be improved.

I like its mechanicallyness and most of its details. I think the head on top is goofy and I think the silliness of the spikes from the chaos accessory sprue hurt it aesthetically.

The fact that chaos relied on that stupid sprue to distinguish its models from loyal marine vehicles typifies the laziness of GWs approach to chaos for so many years. You can look at the sprues for BA variants and SoB vehicles and see how much more thought was given to making more distinctive models.

 aka_mythos wrote:
The issue I have with the Defiler is primarily that it's too large for what it is; pretty close to knight size by volume but representing something much less. It's foot print should be much closer to the other daemon engines or its rules should be improved.

I like its mechanicallyness and most of its details. I think the head on top is goofy and I think the silliness of the spikes from the chaos accessory sprue hurt it aesthetically.

The fact that chaos relied on that stupid sprue to distinguish its models from loyal marine vehicles typifies the laziness of GWs approach to chaos for so many years. You can look at the sprues for BA variants and SoB vehicles and see how much more thought was given to making more distinctive models.

Well, the spiky sprue was kind of a limited resources thing, and a clever way to get multiple kits out of more or less the same sprues. When the release schedule was much slower, it made more sense. Now that a million things are coming out every week and so much stuff can get packed onto a sprue, it deems pretty limited by comparison. I'm not terribly familiar with the SoB kits, but the Blood Angels sprues came out way later than the Chaos ones.

In other words, Chaos has a model line that is still pretty stuck in 4th edition. The only heavy weapon they have in plastic is the heavy bolter; the rest are still Finecast for crying out loud!

I'd like to see them look more like Warriors of Chaos in Fantasy.



These things look stocky, relentless, and menacing. Chaos Marines just look like spikey versions of Loyalists with poor detail that hasn't stood the test of time.



Raz does Chaos Marines the way I'd like to see Chaos Marines done - thick, tough looking with brutal features. The fur capes really help bulk them out.

The basic CSM kit is outdated as hell. This also affects Havocs and Chosen since you basically have to kitbash those units from the same box.
I won't even start talking about Obliterators, they are hideous (not in a good way).

Basically CSM needs just one or two replacements and they would be fine. Just get the CSM box updated to look more like DV Chosen and the Raptors. And a plastic obliterator/mutilator dual kit. The vehicles are good, terminators are ok, spawn and bikers are fine. To cover the cult units, GW can carry on with providing upgrade kits but just redo them in plastic.

 aka_mythos wrote:
The issue I have with the Defiler is primarily that it's too large for what it is; pretty close to knight size by volume but representing something much less. It's foot print should be much closer to the other daemon engines or its rules should be improved.

There's no excuse for that AV12. It should be AV13, with either the ability to ignore Ordnance or swap out the battlecannon for something that actually allows it to make use of all those weapons you pay so much for (including the close combat ones).

The defiler is nowhere NEAR a knight X_X

Anyway, all it needs is a price brake, not changes. than the whole "does everything, but nothing too good" theme with the mess of different and conflicting weapons will work out for him.

 BoomWolf wrote:
The defiler is nowhere NEAR a knight X_X

Anyway, all it needs is a price break, not changes. than the whole "does everything, but nothing too good" theme with the mess of different and conflicting weapons will work out for him.

It's not Knight size, but it's definitely big enough to warrant some extra capability with that cannon in its chest. The ability to fire the cannon at full scatter on the move while firing its other weapons at BS3 could work (I think they could do that in 3rd, but I'm not sure). Unless it was made significantly cheaper, it really does need changed. It's just stupid that the Soul Grinder is better in every way, except for one weapon's extreme long range that is totally at odds with everything else. AV12 is still just plain silly on something so enormous and supposedly well-armoured, especially when Daemon abs are AV13 for less.

When I said it was larger I did say by volume. Meaning you take the giant span of the defilers legs and it's extra tall turret and the space they collectively encompass on the table. Imagine lying the Knight on its back and the two take up similar amounts of space.

The Defiler has a number of rule problems. You look at the conversions GWs staff were building before the Defiler came out you'd see a bunch of conversions more representative of a Stalk tank than a Defiler; I think it's indicative of what it's rules then and even now are meant to represent. The Defiler presently it should be closer to a knight or land raider in terms of capabilities than it should be to the other Daemon engines. The most recent rules were obviouly written with the idea of putting all three daemon engines on relatively equal footing regardless of what actually make sense or what works.

Given that the defiler never had anywhere near the point cost or power level of a knight, nor was it represented as an equivalent to even a land raider in any other release outside of the tabletop-I find this in the realm of wild wishing.

The defiler is, and always was, a "Little bit of everything" tank, fitting with chaos' "I want MOAR" approach.
Its a battle tank, an artillery piece, a dreadnaught, a suppressor and a trench clearer in one box of madness-chose a job and he CAN preform, but never cost efficient, as it has too much resources spent into other tools.
Whoever invented the defilers (fluff-wise) was a loony and had no understanding of the meaning of "too much", and the defiler is clearly too much EVERYTHING, and that is it's problem.

You cant use them all at once not only because of the game rules, but because of basic logic, the battlecannon is used to the opposite of what the flamer and fists are for, and the autocannon is unrelated to anything.
This mess of guns are not designed to formed a single coherent unit to begin with
And if you ever played DoW (you should, its a good game even if not a great translation from tabletop), you would notice that the defiler is cataloged as an artillery unit, not a forward advance unit, not a siegebraker.
An artillery, that has some powerful self-defense abilities just in case.
So I'd take the havoc over the flamers, and let him sit back and blast away.

As long it has a battle cannon, it cannot be the beefy dreadnaut he is tooled up to be. as long it is a beefy dreadnaut he cannot be an effiecent artillery piece. unfortunately he is clearly both, and as such he is screwing himself over.
He should be buffed up to have soul grinder armor, but no more. he is to remain the "I'd can do EVERYTHING, but not quite effectively" that he is, due to the very nature of his construction.


As for your "stalker tank", I think you mean this:
http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1370/72/1370725478018.jpg
Amazing conversion, and if I ever delve into chaos I'm making one.
But as cool as it is, it also does not look like he can advance, fight and fire that cannon all at once.

 Sir Arun wrote:
I'm kinda appalled at the horrible state the Chaos miniatures range still is - a lot of the range dates back to the early 2000s, if not late 90s unless I'm mistaken. It's painfully costly to build a full size legion marine squad, not to mention that they stil end up looking ugly as sin, and I don't mean that in a good chaosy way.

In fact even some of the newer models GW has released look hideously ugly - the biggest eyesore of them all being mutilators. I love the Chaos vehicles though. And cultists are also well done, as are most of the HQs especially the Warsmith. I love the aesthetics of the WHFB's Warriors of Chaos btw. Still...am I the only one or do the majority of Chaos players agree that CSM are in bad need of a major redesign?

It's a mix.
CSM have some great character models, some of them have aged remarkably well.
Some of my favorite models are old CSM models
like http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Chaos-Space-Marine-Emperor-s-Children-Lord

The plastics look pretty bad. The CSM kit, the Bezerker kit, the Vehicle upgrade kits. Lets add spikes and horns isnt a great idea. Particularly when the kits are old and the detail crap.

I'm sorry, but WHAT?

The CSM kit has good details for the bodies and legs, and if you are not a big fan of horns, there are 8 hornless heads in the kit, and 10 more with fairly easily removed horns.
There are also very little spikes.

I honestly don't understand some of you guys....
I mean, you don't want horns, spikes, or anything "evil looking" on your CSM, why are you not just getting a loyalist kit and paint it as your CSM than?
By not putting all these stuff you are making them look remarkably similar to their loyalist brethren-and at that point, what's the point of even having another kit rather than sharing with the codex marines?

Complaining that there is too much of an easily removable detail is odd....

Compare the differences between the basic chaos marine squad box set and the ones that come from the starter box. The ones in the basic set are admittedly by the sculptor just the Loyal marines box set with the chaos arrows and spikes sculpted on. It's been added to and no doubt reworked since it was originally done, but the notion and execution of chaos as loyalists with spikes and arrows is lazy. You compare those to the starter box and you see something much more distinctive, something that looks mutated and twisted by the warp. It was the prior lack of aesthetic distinctiveness that hurt chaos' model range the most. Some might argue its gone to far but I think distinctiveness will help GW treat chaos better than it has. Aesthetically chaos is the warped marines as opposed to being the marines with spikes.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Given that the defiler never had anywhere near the point cost or power level of a knight, nor was it represented as an equivalent to even a land raider in any other release outside of the tabletop-I find this in the realm of wild wishing.

The defiler is, and always was, a "Little bit of everything" tank, fitting with chaos' "I want MOAR" approach.
Its a battle tank, an artillery piece, a dreadnaught, a suppressor and a trench clearer in one box of madness-chose a job and he CAN preform, but never cost efficient, as it has too much resources spent into other tools.
Whoever invented the defilers (fluff-wise) was a loony and had no understanding of the meaning of "too much", and the defiler is clearly too much EVERYTHING, and that is it's problem.

You cant use them all at once not only because of the game rules, but because of basic logic, the battlecannon is used to the opposite of what the flamer and fists are for, and the autocannon is unrelated to anything.
This mess of guns are not designed to formed a single coherent unit to begin with
And if you ever played DoW (you should, its a good game even if not a great translation from tabletop), you would notice that the defiler is cataloged as an artillery unit, not a forward advance unit, not a siegebraker.
An artillery, that has some powerful self-defense abilities just in case.
So I'd take the havoc over the flamers, and let him sit back and blast away.

As long it has a battle cannon, it cannot be the beefy dreadnaut he is tooled up to be. as long it is a beefy dreadnaut he cannot be an effiecent artillery piece. unfortunately he is clearly both, and as such he is screwing himself over.
He should be buffed up to have soul grinder armor, but no more. he is to remain the "I'd can do EVERYTHING, but not quite effectively" that he is, due to the very nature of his construction.


As for your "stalker tank", I think you mean this:
http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1370/72/1370725478018.jpg
Amazing conversion, and if I ever delve into chaos I'm making one.
But as cool as it is, it also does not look like he can advance, fight and fire that cannon all at once.

To put it another way for me there are 3 things the rules, the model, and the concept. All three are good and mostly fit chaos, but they aren't representative of each other. Based only on its rules you'd expect a smaller than the Defiler model. Based solely on the model you'd expect something more on the power level of a Land Raider.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Chaos has the problem of having all the very different types under one roof. If the Dark Angels had to use the same bits as Ultramarines, there'd be a problem there, but Chaos players of Tzeentch are expected to use the same Terminators and bog standard Marines or Cultists as a Khorne player. A Nurgle Obliterator is just painted greener than a Slanneshi Obliterator. There's no diversity apart from the Plague/Noise/Thousand Sons and Beserker range of Elite choices. Everything else has to be Forge World and a lot of players don't go through that hassle.

So yeah, they need an update to better show off the diversity available.

yeah, i agree with this. i like most of the CSM models, but the DV figures were something else. A redesign like that, or taking in a more heavily mutated aesthetic like the early rogue trader chaos renegades would be awesome. but i'm happy enough with most of them. i don't like the knorne berserkers though.

 daddyorchips wrote:

yeah, i agree with this. i like most of the CSM models, but the DV figures were something else. A redesign like that, or taking in a more heavily mutated aesthetic like the early rogue trader chaos renegades would be awesome. but i'm happy enough with most of them. i don't like the knorne berserkers though.

What I like most about the more twisted look to the Chaos marine armor on those minis is that they go together well with the different aesthetics of the different chaos gods and most legions. I don't think they necessarily work for Alpha Legion who try not to be too showy and Iron Warriors who are more utilitarian... To tie together everything else they're perfect. They sit well next to oozing nurgle, they look good with rune covered word bearers and sigil covered thousand son, they're flashy enough for slaanesh and suddenly the organic bits of obliterators don't seem so out of place.

Khorne Berzerkers like most of the cult marine miniatures are just antiquated. The Slaanesh and Nurgle ones are kinda compositionally incomplete. Thousand Sons lack any sort of detail showing they're magic soul trapped inside armor as opposed to just any other marine.

I really dont understand why you guys are asking for a points cost drop on the Defiler.

I think it is fair costed. You pay 45 more points for it than an IG player does for a LRBT, you lose 2 armor values up front and 1 on the sides, but you gain a 5+ invuln that no markerlight can remove, and on top of that you gain IWND.

Mainly the extra cost goes in the additional Hullpoint (which in turn makes IWND more effective) and your ability to defend yourself in cc where a LRBT would get wrecked just as badly as a Sentinel would.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
I'd like to see them look more like Warriors of Chaos in Fantasy.



These things look stocky, relentless, and menacing. Chaos Marines just look like spikey versions of Loyalists with poor detail that hasn't stood the test of time.



Raz does Chaos Marines the way I'd like to see Chaos Marines done - thick, tough looking with brutal features. The fur capes really help bulk them out.

My friend made his Chaos Marine army out of these.

These parts with 40k parts and they looked really cool.

But the army sucked so bad he sold them.

 Sir Arun wrote:
I really dont understand why you guys are asking for a points cost drop on the Defiler.

I think it is fair costed. You pay 45 more points for it than an IG player does for a LRBT, you lose 2 armor values up front and 1 on the sides, but you gain a 5+ invuln that no markerlight can remove, and on top of that you gain IWND.

Mainly the extra cost goes in the additional Hullpoint (which in turn makes IWND more effective) and your ability to defend yourself in cc where a LRBT would get wrecked just as badly as a Sentinel would.

Russes have a few things going for them that Defilers can't touch. First, 45 points cheaper is like a third of the cost. It's no trivial number of points. Second, Russes have much better armor. The jump from 12/12/10 to 14/13/10 is HUGE. Pissing across the table at AV14 is painful, and the majority of things that will eat a Defiler alive (Wave Serpents, things with Autocannons, etc.) can't even touch the Russ' front armor. Third, the Tank and Heavy special rules allow the Russ to ram targets at S10 so it's not exactly a slouch when it comes to hitting certain things at close range without its main gun. Finally, Russes can benefit from tank orders if you want to. All of this, and they're 45 points cheaper.

At its current points cost, the thing should be 13/13/11. Otherwise, a reduction to 150 pts like it used to be would be fine. Hardly anybody was spamming Defilers at 150 points, back when Fleet used to let you run AND assault, and I doubt anybody would spam them at 150 pts.

 aka_mythos wrote:
Compare the differences between the basic chaos marine squad box set and the ones that come from the starter box. The ones in the basic set are admittedly by the sculptor just the Loyal marines box set with the chaos arrows and spikes sculpted on. It's been added to and no doubt reworked since it was originally done, but the notion and execution of chaos as loyalists with spikes and arrows is lazy. You compare those to the starter box and you see something much more distinctive, something that looks mutated and twisted by the warp. It was the prior lack of aesthetic distinctiveness that hurt chaos' model range the most. Some might argue its gone to far but I think distinctiveness will help GW treat chaos better than it has. Aesthetically chaos is the warped marines as opposed to being the marines with spikes.

That's hardly fair.

First, the starter CSM are supposed to be "chosen", not basic marines. they are chapter veterans equivalent (in appearance and "rank", though not by power level) and not basic guys. Chosen does not have a box yet unfortunately, but you can compare DA veterans or the sternguard to regular marines to see the difference, veterans are more fancy. were these the regular CSM, how would the veteran look? like chaos lords?
Second, its far easier to make super-detailed models when posing is not an issue. boxed sets should always be more impressive than the multi kits.


The basic CSM are mostly representatives of recently recruited guys, they ARE "wonnabe chaos that were loyalists yesterday so they put on some spikes to look brutal"

The majority of chaos players don't want to play recently recruited guys. Even still that notion of Chaos marines isn't even represented that well on the the basic chaos marine minis.

There was a time when the basic Chaos marine minis did look as mutated as the chosen and it's only an improvement to move back in that direction. Its an aesthetic that could be done to a lesser degree for basic chaos marines and the result would be many times more interesting than what we get.

Even if we're stuck with recently traitored chaos marines as our core troop, regardless of the fact that a majority of Chaos a Marines are not that, their present portrayal is just boring. Why just arrows and spikes?-Why not more sculpted battle damage or cobbled together armor showing the reduced resources of renegades?-Or how about just simply having a greater majority of the kit portraying older armor patterns? Or why not have Chaos marines who have incorporated more unsanctioned modifications to their armor? If you look at FW's Horus Heresy minis you can see a good many different ways basic power armor can be made to look more interesting. Heck not even that, just look at the art in the codex and you can see far better depictions of where GW could go with the basic aesthetic.

What we have is laziness. GW literally converted the loyalist kit several years back and then sold it.

Also, crotch-skulls. Seriously.

I find the idea of "recently turned CSMs" intriguing. Imagine collecting regular SMs, painting them in Ultramarines scheme, then painting bloodied Xs on all the chapter symbols and bloodying all the vehicles. A Chaos Space marine army painted this way would look unsettlingly scary

I think it comes down to marketing. Even though Chaos Marines are supposed to be just as varied as Loyalists, they are not put much emphasis on because they are one of many "bad guys." It's basically the Space Marine "good guys" and then there's the "bad guys" of Tau, Ork, Tyranid, Necron, Chaos, etc. It sucks in my opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Also, crotch-skulls. Seriously.

If i had just wrecked someone I hated... I think I would wear there skull on my crotch. Skull ing maybe?

 aka_mythos wrote:

Even if we're stuck with recently traitored chaos marines as our core troop, regardless of the fact that a majority of Chaos a Marines are not that, their present portrayal is just boring. Why just arrows and spikes?-Why not more sculpted battle damage or cobbled together armor showing the reduced resources of renegades?-Or how about just simply having a greater majority of the kit portraying older armor patterns? Or why not have Chaos marines who have incorporated more unsanctioned modifications to their armor? If you look at FW's Horus Heresy minis you can see a good many different ways basic power armor can be made to look more interesting. Heck not even that, just look at the art in the codex and you can see far better depictions of where GW could go with the basic aesthetic.

What we have is laziness. GW literally converted the loyalist kit several years back and then sold it.

I'll start from the last sentence.
Yes, it IS a modified loyalist kit. that's what its SUPPOSED to be. the two are not as different as some like (especially the chaos marines) to think.
They are not a whole new race. basic CSM are nothing more than traitor marines, not anything special. cult marines are specialized units that has their own distinctive appearance.


Now, listing what you brought up as options:

Battle damage? you do that yourself. use a nail and a hammer to (gently) make bullet holes, and a sharpy to make slashes, and if you are feeling REALLY like making a mess, a match can make melts. in-kit battle damage is silly, as you will end up with multiple models with identical battle damage, and that will be plain odd.

Cobbled armor? these are chaos marines, not orks. they HAVE resources because not only are not shy of looting, they also got their own production lines. there is no rational reason they will have cobbled armor and the only mentioned sub-faction that does I am aware of is the "failure" members of the black legion-that are specifically punished, a minor part of it that does not justify a real kit, just make damaged armor using the above methods, put on slightly less (only one shoulder pad to some, high lack of helmets, missing packpacks, not using the "generic gear" bits, low end upgrades on units...) and you get "cobbled unequipped guys"

Old pattern armors? covered by forgeworld in the HH units, BECAUSE that's the old armors. you can also mix these kits with "modern" kits to make hybrids. no need to be redundant. (and if the old armor was the CSM kit, where would you get loyalist old armor, or new renegade armor?) and if CSM had old armors to begin with, you could play legions fine, but will be in a pickle for the recently fallen (and even legions have quite a few up-to-date equipment. they DO have looting and production lines, as stated)

Unsanctioned modifications? you mean like spikes, blades, chaos symbols, chains, added layers of chainmail, skulls, horns, tusks. claws, mutations, trophies, rotted flesh, custom weapons, furbands, demonic insignia, god dedicated bitz, etc... that are scattered across the kits? what other "modifications" are you looking for that are not overly-specific and belong to personalized conversion realms? if you got one tell me, because I cant see what is missing.

Most things you mentioned are either covered already by other models and it would be redundant to have them twice, in the kits already, too specialized to justify a main kit, or strictly in the realm of conversions.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
Compare the differences between the basic chaos marine squad box set and the ones that come from the starter box. The ones in the basic set are admittedly by the sculptor just the Loyal marines box set with the chaos arrows and spikes sculpted on. It's been added to and no doubt reworked since it was originally done, but the notion and execution of chaos as loyalists with spikes and arrows is lazy. You compare those to the starter box and you see something much more distinctive, something that looks mutated and twisted by the warp. It was the prior lack of aesthetic distinctiveness that hurt chaos' model range the most. Some might argue its gone to far but I think distinctiveness will help GW treat chaos better than it has. Aesthetically chaos is the warped marines as opposed to being the marines with spikes.

That's hardly fair.

First, the starter CSM are supposed to be "chosen", not basic marines. they are chapter veterans equivalent (in appearance and "rank", though not by power level) and not basic guys. Chosen does not have a box yet unfortunately, but you can compare DA veterans or the sternguard to regular marines to see the difference, veterans are more fancy. were these the regular CSM, how would the veteran look? like chaos lords?
Second, its far easier to make super-detailed models when posing is not an issue. boxed sets should always be more impressive than the multi kits.

It's not so much the descrepancy in detail as the general aesthetic difference. The newer stuff looks warped, changed beyond what it was to something new, and is, in the truest sense of the word, chaotic. I'm not saying there should be as much detail on regular CSM, but there's just so much difference in the whole look.

As for not being able to replicate that look in multi part, I'll just direct you to the Raptor kit that does just that!

I agree that the infantry models at least, look crummy (though the maulerfiend looks great, and the re-done hellbrute isn't as bad as the DV one). I take the other route, though, and say that they've gotten WORSE, not better over time.

The new ultra-cluttered, dipped-in-glue-then-dipped-in-bits-and-frills-bag is two big steps in the wrong direction. The biggest problem with CSM models in the first place was that they were too cluttered (note how many people ditch the trophy racks on terminators, for example), and what they did was to take models that were too cluttered and made them MORE CLUTTERED.

It feels like they didn't know what direction they wanted to take CSM, so they decided to take them in every direction simultaneously. The results are about as bad as you'd expect from that kind of compromise.

Someone gave me the idea of kit-bashing CSM 1:1 with regular SM models, which is what I think I might do going into the future.

well, every army could use some updating here and there, personaly I like the chaos models.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Now, listing what you brought up as options:
...

I'm talking about the weak composition of Chaos Space marines, so arguing these types of detail item by item misses the point. I'm saying that if GW doesn't want to redo the Chaos Marine kit with some stepped down form of the details on those chosen marines, that GW needs to thoughtfully use some combination of all these other things to create a cohesive aesthetic that goes further to better represents Chaos marines.

As it is, there are fewer aesthetic differences between Chaos Marine and tactical marines than there are between the different loyalist chapters with codices. Beyond colors there are more visual cues and better visual cues with each of the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Grey Knights armies. We should expect GW to make chaos marines such that their look should be as distinctive as those different marine chapters.

As much as it is an aesthetic problem it is also a conceptual problem GW needs to address going forward. They don't want to limit players to pre-established warbands drawn from the Heresy era legions so they have Renegades and give chaos this weird mix of rules where the majority of the book doesn't make sense for a chapter that's been renegade for even 100 years let alone more recently. At the same time they don't give enough to represent the legion originating chaos marines. I feel the miniatures are pulled in different directions in much the same way.

 BoomWolf wrote:

I'll start from the last sentence.
Yes, it IS a modified loyalist kit. that's what its SUPPOSED to be. the two are not as different as some like (especially the chaos marines) to think.
They are not a whole new race. basic CSM are nothing more than traitor marines, not anything special. cult marines are specialized units that has their own distinctive appearance.

I understand what they did when they designed that kit, but making them too much of a blank slate has left it lacking. Just because they are "supposed to be" the way they are does not mean the way they are is good or representative. Just because intent is fulfilled doesn't mean the best intent nets the best result.

By making a kit that's representative of Loyalists turned traitors, you ignore those traitors from the Legions who aren't cult troops or chosen. My point is that it doesn't even represent the recently Renegades that well; Renegades are on the run and even if they're lucky enough to find a sanctuary it isn't as if they should have the resources to ornament their armor and if they did ornament their armor wouldn't it be more than this very minimal amount.

The Chaos Marine kit is somehow meant to represent both types of Chaos marines, but really represent neither. It seems silly that going to chaos is simply represented by such superficial details. Look at the Chaos cultist miniatures, those are normal humans that have gone to chaos and there should be as much difference between loyalist marines and chaos marines as there are between those and every other normal human miniatures GW does.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

If I were a chaos marine my skull cod piece would have even more skulls on that skull.

aka_mythos wrote:As it is, there are fewer aesthetic differences between Chaos Marine and tactical marines than there are between the different loyalist chapters with codices.

A agree with much of the rest, but what are you talking about here? That's just crazy.


I mean, come on:



Plague marines look much different than DA tacs do from ultramarines. CSM vehicles borrowed from SM at least have more than literally just a change in color scheme, and no version of light-side terminators comes festooned with combi-weapons AND spike racks AND demonic ornamentation AND skull masks AND walk around with autocannons and icons.

The core of the CSM aesthetic - they look like space marines, except they've been corrupted in some way - is actually pretty solid. They do look like space marines, which they should, and they do have a bunch of different stuff. They've hit a good spot with the same-but-different, the problem is their choice of different, not the level of difference.

Kranon and the chosen look great because they mix in alot of the baroque detailing everyone is mentioning rather than skulls, and spikes.
I personally love the red butcher models but thats probably just the vicious posing.

The mutilator, obliterator, and chaos spawn kits are the real issues here.

 Laughingcarp wrote:
The mutilator, obliterator, and chaos spawn kits are the real issues here.

Obliterators are not bad. Mutilators had the right idea going. I think they wanted it to look like The Thing (the horror film alien, not the Marvel character), with skin stretched out and distorted by the Warp. Paintjobs and scale limits them to Derp face.

I like the stuff from DV but I don't think everything should be so ornate, they are Chosen after all. I think the standard CSM could be updated a bit, but only up to the level of the new Chaos Raptor models. I think they have hit the nail on the head there.

I don't think they are too bad as they are, sure there are a few poopie ones.The Defiler could do with a bit of love and the Havocs could as well, probably the Obliterators and the Mutilators could just be forgotten about, forever.

I do prefer the Realm of Chaos era marines in most aspects, they seemed to have the right level of mutation and spiky bits, even if the models themselves weren't that great.

 Ailaros wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:As it is, there are fewer aesthetic differences between Chaos Marine and tactical marines than there are between the different loyalist chapters with codices.

A agree with much of the rest, but what are you talking about here? That's just crazy.


I mean, come on:

Spoiler:

or







or

Plague marines look much different than DA tacs do from ultramarines. CSM vehicles borrowed from SM at least have more than literally just a change in color scheme, and no version of light-side terminators comes festooned with combi-weapons AND spike racks AND demonic ornamentation AND skull masks AND walk around with autocannons and icons.

The core of the CSM aesthetic - they look like space marines, except they've been corrupted in some way - is actually pretty solid. They do look like space marines, which they should, and they do have a bunch of different stuff. They've hit a good spot with the same-but-different, the problem is their choice of different, not the level of difference.

I'm talking specifically about the chaos equivalent to the loyalist tactical squad kit. Your pictures of everything else only shows how much that chaos marine troop is lacking. I like the majority of the chaos line, there are few things that need help but what you posted pictures aren't them. I'm saying there should be more contrast between the chaos and loyalist tactical squad; that I think the contrast is less than that between the loyalist tactical squad and say... death company, or dark angels, or grey hunters. I realize those are all more specialized troops but Chaos is supposed to be that much further removed. Ultimately its that the quality of the chaos marine tactical squad equivalent sculpts aren't as well done.

aka_mythos wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:As it is, there are fewer aesthetic differences between Chaos Marine and tactical marines than there are between the different loyalist chapters with codices.

That's just crazy.

I'm talking specifically about the chaos equivalent to the loyalist tactical squad kit.

I still don't see it. Light-side tac squads look much more similar to each other than either do to CSM to me.

It's subtle, but there is a difference. The newer marines aren't as static, and have a few more details, particularly around the legs.

Now tell me that the difference between new marine models and old marine models is greater than the difference between either of those and CSM models.

It's not just the differences but the quality of those differences I'm talking about. It is a multifaceted issue that I'm trying to explain in portions and it seems to come off as nick-picking. This is a compositional issue, so all these little things contribute a little bit to the composition but are in no way the singular issue.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
I'd like to see them look more like Warriors of Chaos in Fantasy.



These things look stocky, relentless, and menacing. Chaos Marines just look like spikey versions of Loyalists with poor detail that hasn't stood the test of time.



Raz does Chaos Marines the way I'd like to see Chaos Marines done - thick, tough looking with brutal features. The fur capes really help bulk them out.

That's why i'm using them as a basis for my Chosen, they have a more mongrel appearance.

I know this is a harsh comment, but the way I see it there are too many lazy people in the hobby that just won't consider conversion work.

Chaos marines are by far my favourite models in the range, i play them for the looks despite awful rules. My second fav would be the deldar, who hopefully won't be quite as f**ked in their codex soon

I think they look awful.I'd prefer them to be primarily older or mixed marks of power armor that has been mutated by the warp. I never liked how they had arrows everywhere. I get the reason but I think it looks strange.

No horns. I don't get it. Why would anyone want to slap a giant pair of horns to their helmet?

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I think they look awful.I'd prefer them to be primarily older or mixed marks of power armor that has been mutated by the warp. I never liked how they had arrows everywhere. I get the reason but I think it looks strange.

No horns. I don't get it. Why would anyone want to slap a giant pair of horns to their helmet?

Who said they had a choice? Doesn't the warp do strange things to armor?

 TheCustomLime wrote:

No horns. I don't get it. Why would anyone want to slap a giant pair of horns to their helmet?

I don't know, ask the real-world armies that did that for centuries for no reason besides "it makes me look scary"?

 BoomWolf wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

No horns. I don't get it. Why would anyone want to slap a giant pair of horns to their helmet?

I don't know, ask the real-world armies that did that for centuries for no reason besides "it makes me look scary"?

Actually, I'm not sure if real world armies did.
I know that the vikings did not use horns; those are ceremonial.

Apparently the Samurai did have some horns though.

I don't think they look crappy, and I would also like to see an overhaul.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I think they look awful.I'd prefer them to be primarily older or mixed marks of power armor that has been mutated by the warp. I never liked how they had arrows everywhere. I get the reason but I think it looks strange.

No horns. I don't get it. Why would anyone want to slap a giant pair of horns to their helmet?

Who said they had a choice? Doesn't the warp do strange things to armor?

Well, something in the warp must have a fetish for horns. Perhaps Slaanesh. S/he has always been described as being horny.

Goodnight, everbody.

BoomWolf wrote:I don't know, ask the real-world armies that did that for centuries for no reason besides "it makes me look scary"?

To interject nerdily for a moment, you also have to consider problems with translations with old historians. "Wear horns on one's helmet" can actually mean a lot if you come at it from an unbiased understanding of that phrase.

For example, the ancient greeks during Homer's time saw horn helmets, and they looked like this:



There are, indeed, bits of tusk and horn on that helmet, but if I told you right now I bought a helmet with horns and tusks on it, you'd probably assume they were whole objects sticking out of a piece of metal.

Anyways...

TheCustomLime wrote:I think they look awful.I'd prefer them to be primarily older or mixed marks of power armor that has been mutated by the warp.

they cant do that, archetypically, though. In order for what realistically would happen to the traitor marines - they'd be wearing old, dirty, botched-together remnants - you would have to show them more as desperate barbarian savages. That would work if the space marines were the gloried defenders of civilization against a filthy mob...

... but that's not how they're going with either of those armies. Space marines wouldn't come across as the deeply flawed by redeemable type if their bad guys were nothing but deeply flawed, and there wouldn't be a reason to fear CSM if they were so inferior to their better-supplied counterparts.

The only reason CSM works is because they're space gangsters. Disciplined soldiers who gave it all up for a more pimped up ride, losing their soul but becoming even more powerful than a regular space marine. They have to bling up, not bling down. They need to look less like less-refined savages, and more like those kind of people who suddenly find themselves rich and wind up being as ostentatious as possible.

Because nothing counters pious, aescetic discipline than a neverending, flagrant display of wealth and power.

 Laughingcarp wrote:
The mutilator, obliterator, and chaos spawn kits are the real issues here.

My solution to the Oblit issue. They do a Mutilator version too. Spawn don't need a good model, because there's a million models out there who make suitable counts as or a basis for conversions.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:

Someone gave me the idea of kit-bashing CSM 1:1 with regular SM models, which is what I think I might do going into the future.

That's exactly what I'm doing at the moment, I'm doing a CSM force modelled on Battle Of Terra era Emperor's Children. This works especially well because the EC had the special dispensation to use the Aquila, but there's no reason it couldn't be done with other Legions/Warbands.

 Ailaros wrote:



Because nothing counters pious, aescetic discipline than a neverending, flagrant display of wealth and power.

The Baroque style of art disagrees

But yes, I would like to see the CSM out-baroque the IoM.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:



Because nothing counters pious, aescetic discipline than a neverending, flagrant display of wealth and power.

The Baroque style of art disagrees

But yes, I would like to see the CSM out-baroque the IoM.

It also makes sense that they'd be scavenging hardcore. So the marks of power armor would be typically older variants but jazzed up in some way. I'd like to see more Mk3 and Mk4 CSM models with other flamboyant iconography attached.

Other things you'd expect are animal and alien skins and other types of trophies, sort of like the Warriors of Chaos sprue.

These dudes would look badass all Chaosed up:





The Beakie armor works pretty well with the CSM aesthetic IMO.



Or modified slightly:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:The Baroque style of art disagrees

Lol.

Yes, nothing says "I'm in touch with the common man" or "I care about leading a disciplined, ordered life" quite like...










All those angry frenchmen weren't provoked to revolution AT ALL

 Ailaros wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:The Baroque style of art disagrees

Lol.

Yes, nothing says "I'm in touch with the common man" or "I care about leading a disciplined, ordered life" quite like...










All those angry frenchmen weren't provoked to revolution AT ALL

That would be French classicism, which is very similar to Baroque.
In fact, French Classicism is basically Baroque for noblemen.

Baroque looks like this :





Much sobriety, so humble.

Now, fun history fact about Baroque art; it was developed by supporters of the catholic church in retaliation to the rise of Protestantism.
The protestants wanted their religion to be simple and dull. So the catholics made their art as showy as possible.

So, if you really want the CSM to be anti-IoM, make them dull and simple, as the IoM uses a lot of Baroque and Gothic imagery.

It would help if they didn't vomit cogs- I mean, Chaos icons necklaces onto everything. The eight-pointed stars engraved onto the armour were fine but now I keep thinking they're dedicated mechanics rather than Chaos worshipers.

The Chaos Space Marine box is defiantly dated and, as has been discussed, suffer from looking like a spiky Tactical Squad. I think the updated Tactical box actually has MORE older marks of armour variants in it doesn't it? I really, really, wnat to work on a Legion force but having to go to Forge World to kitbash units that don't look like they just stuck some spikes on their armour and turned traitor last night isn't very appealing. For all the flak that the new Raptors box gets at least they look DIFFERENT to just spiky-Assault Marines; the Mark IV helmets, the Heresy-era jump packs, etc.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:So, if you really want the CSM to be anti-IoM, make them dull and simple, as the IoM uses a lot of Baroque and Gothic imagery.

Actually, puritain CSM would be pretty fething scary.

Take it the other way - being traitors by being TOO disciplined. The Emperor and his marines are corrupt - look at their devotion to icons and false ritual - we must break from our brothers to purify ourselves from base ornamentation.

I could see that.

Huh. So, you'd take a tactical kit and just shave off the decorations? I could dig it.

I don't like it when folks take happy snaps of my house and gardens and post up on this place it brings in unwelcomed ferels.

 Ailaros wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:So, if you really want the CSM to be anti-IoM, make them dull and simple, as the IoM uses a lot of Baroque and Gothic imagery.

Actually, puritain CSM would be pretty fething scary.

Take it the other way - being traitors by being TOO disciplined. The Emperor and his marines are corrupt - look at their devotion to icons and false ritual - we must break from our brothers to purify ourselves from base ornamentation.

I could see that.

That would be pretty cool.

Perhaps the longer the become exposed to chaos, the more extravagant and baroque they become, to represent the corruption from chaos.

The normal CSM could be all simple and plain looking, to represent fresh "recruits," but the veterans of the long war and the chosen would be all decked out in over the top armor decorations and iconography, even more so than their imperial counterparts.
By serving chaos, these Space Marines become the very thing they hate and sought to break away from.

You know...it's sad that in less than a minute I thought of a design concept for CSM that's a tad more interesting than the current concept of "lol, evil marines with spikes."

Crappy?no.In need of an update?hell yeah.and the rhino varients.Add a fence to the roof?EVIL!or perhaps over concerned with safety regulations.Chaos predators should look like something that should burst into reality with a blinding flash,before tendrils burst from the view ports to drag helpless foes into their many maws of sharpened teeth.not...predators with fences.

See, this is interesting to me. The Chaos Marine sprues are more than just a problem in themselves to me - They represent the worst part of Warhammer 40K to me - Hair'n'metal.

Often I will find myself thinking "Hmm, I like the look of the Crimson Slaughter, Black Legion and the Purge among others, and What's It's Like was great at giving me an idea of how the Chaos Marines aren't just spiky marines, but a bunch of angry melon-fethers so tired of their old employees that they are doing everything to ruin their game, doing evil things for an actual reason and in general just being pittyful but awesome villians. I'll take a look at them next time I'm at the FLGS."...

Then I go to my FLGS and look at the models, and all interest is gone - Not only are the sculpts kinda dated in both appearance poses, but they don't represent what I expected, which is old fethers who enslave Daemons, scour worlds and generally are the main villian in the story. That's not the worst, though. The spikes and hair is reminding me of something bad.

When I ask people about what music they find fit the 40K universe, I always - ALWAYS - get the same answer: Death Metal. To me, Death Metal is the worst soundtrack to anything 40K because of how silly it is - I know, it sounds evil and slaughtery and stuff, but it's also massively over the top in a way I believe 40K has walked away from when 3rd Ed ended. So, when I see the Chaos Models, they look like Death Metal cover-posers and wannabe Iron Maiden-monsters, and not traitors or murderers that harkens back to the days when the Imperium was cool and then fethed it up on a galactic scale. It is from the time where Orks where Space Orcs and looked like mongrels, Space Marines where cops and Eldar where Captain Planet stand-ins. And all of this isn't bad, really - It's just from another era, an era that is over now and is being replaced with something else, modern 40K.

Basically what I'm saying is that they are dated. The Chosen and Raptors look better, what with Space Marines becoming more ornate and Chaos Marines getting appropriatly more ornate in a twisted way.

 The Wise Dane wrote:
See, this is interesting to me. The Chaos Marine sprues are more than just a problem in themselves to me - They represent the worst part of Warhammer 40K to me - Hair'n'metal.

Often I will find myself thinking "Hmm, I like the look of the Crimson Slaughter, Black Legion and the Purge among others, and What's It's Like was great at giving me an idea of how the Chaos Marines aren't just spiky marines, but a bunch of angry melon-fethers so tired of their old employees that they are doing everything to ruin their game, doing evil things for an actual reason and in general just being pittyful but awesome villians. I'll take a look at them next time I'm at the FLGS."...

Then I go to my FLGS and look at the models, and all interest is gone - Not only are the sculpts kinda dated in both appearance poses, but they don't represent what I expected, which is old fethers who enslave Daemons, scour worlds and generally are the main villian in the story. That's not the worst, though. The spikes and hair is reminding me of something bad.

When I ask people about what music they find fit the 40K universe, I always - ALWAYS - get the same answer: Death Metal. To me, Death Metal is the worst soundtrack to anything 40K because of how silly it is - I know, it sounds evil and slaughtery and stuff, but it's also massively over the top in a way I believe 40K has walked away from when 3rd Ed ended. So, when I see the Chaos Models, they look like Death Metal cover-posers and wannabe Iron Maiden-monsters, and not traitors or murderers that harkens back to the days when the Imperium was cool and then fethed it up on a galactic scale. It is from the time where Orks where Space Orcs and looked like mongrels, Space Marines where cops and Eldar where Captain Planet stand-ins. And all of this isn't bad, really - It's just from another era, an era that is over now and is being replaced with something else, modern 40K.

Basically what I'm saying is that they are dated. The Chosen and Raptors look better, what with Space Marines becoming more ornate and Chaos Marines getting appropriatly more ornate in a twisted way.

I agree. When I look at the Chaos artwork every image shows these rich and distinctive textures. Some are metal, bone, and horn but it's when they're used more sparingly and in combination with all the other textures and imagery that they work.

GW's distillation of chaos marines is a kin to just drawing a smile on a page and calling it the Mona Lisa; maybe that makes a statement and is identifiable but it is a very minimal and the most superficial sort of representation. It is too stark a contrast between the Chosen and Chaos Space Marines.

Previously in this thread I voiced similar thoughts and was met with a "then buy those" or "convert that" response. My problem with that is we aren't buying armatures when we buy these minis so much as we buy miniature representations. These representations don't go far enough to represent.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
See, this is interesting to me. The Chaos Marine sprues are more than just a problem in themselves to me - They represent the worst part of Warhammer 40K to me - Hair'n'metal.

Often I will find myself thinking "Hmm, I like the look of the Crimson Slaughter, Black Legion and the Purge among others, and What's It's Like was great at giving me an idea of how the Chaos Marines aren't just spiky marines, but a bunch of angry melon-fethers so tired of their old employees that they are doing everything to ruin their game, doing evil things for an actual reason and in general just being pittyful but awesome villians. I'll take a look at them next time I'm at the FLGS."...

Then I go to my FLGS and look at the models, and all interest is gone - Not only are the sculpts kinda dated in both appearance poses, but they don't represent what I expected, which is old fethers who enslave Daemons, scour worlds and generally are the main villian in the story. That's not the worst, though. The spikes and hair is reminding me of something bad.

When I ask people about what music they find fit the 40K universe, I always - ALWAYS - get the same answer: Death Metal. To me, Death Metal is the worst soundtrack to anything 40K because of how silly it is - I know, it sounds evil and slaughtery and stuff, but it's also massively over the top in a way I believe 40K has walked away from when 3rd Ed ended. So, when I see the Chaos Models, they look like Death Metal cover-posers and wannabe Iron Maiden-monsters, and not traitors or murderers that harkens back to the days when the Imperium was cool and then fethed it up on a galactic scale. It is from the time where Orks where Space Orcs and looked like mongrels, Space Marines where cops and Eldar where Captain Planet stand-ins. And all of this isn't bad, really - It's just from another era, an era that is over now and is being replaced with something else, modern 40K.

Basically what I'm saying is that they are dated. The Chosen and Raptors look better, what with Space Marines becoming more ornate and Chaos Marines getting appropriatly more ornate in a twisted way.

I agree. When I look at the Chaos artwork every image shows these rich and distinctive textures. Some are metal, bone, and horn but it's when they're used more sparingly and in combination with all the other textures and imagery that they work.

GW's distillation of chaos marines is a kin to just drawing a smile on a page and calling it the Mona Lisa; maybe that makes a statement and is identifiable but it is a very minimal and the most superficial sort of representation. It is too stark a contrast between the Chosen and Chaos Space Marines.

Previously in this thread I voiced similar thoughts and was met with a "then buy those" or "convert that" response. My problem with that is we aren't buying armatures when we buy these minis so much as we buy miniature representations. These representations don't go far enough to represent.

Well yeah - I believe GWs old dogma of "We're a model company, not a game company" is really showing through some of their most recent models like Nagash who really shows what they are capable of at this point in time, so seeing these older models on the table doesn't really take that idea all the way through. I don't like representative models too much, as most of them don't fit the asthetics the way GW makes the model do (Though I'd say the Tau and some of the Necron models aren't in that alley either, but anyway), and that just doesn't look good.

Thing is, if GW wanted to, they could easily update the current models to something more Chosen-y, but I'm afraid there might not be enough buyers to make it a profitable investment. I'd love to see it, and it might just make me go for some, but as long as we have the old range I won't be touching them.

I think part of the blandness comes from GW trying to use the CSM kit as a core kit for the Plague marine, Noise Marine, and Thousand Son kits, that would simply use add-on bits to make whole new kits. To me its actually those kits that accentuate how minimal GW's effort was. To me those kits look like uncohesive models with bits that have a drastically different character to them from their legs and other bits. GW's almost completely retired those sorts of add-on kits in favor of full kits. Once that's happened with Chaos I can see them revisiting the Chaos marines and doing a little more.

Ehh... I don't think they should pattern a new CSM box after the DV chosen or the raptors. Those models have a bit too much bling. I'd prefer more plain models.

Definitly needs an overhaul. and a boot to the codex. Nurgle is slowed good and i Hate seeing everyone and there grandma use or convert plague bearers. some times they are done well, but a lot i see are just done bad :/

would love to see more slannesh corn and Tzeench be played for once.

For the most part, for CSM Power Armor models, I use regular Space Marines. Because I find all the spikes and spookies a bit on the cheesy side.

Like TheCustomLine, I wouldn't want them to go the route of making them even more blingy.

What I'd love to see is a kit that uses Mk. IV power armor as the base like how the regular marine kit used Mk. 7. Then it includes a ton of bits from different marks. Add some chaos imagery and you are good to go.

<Disregard, I had things wrong>

 TheCustomLime wrote:
What I'd love to see is a kit that uses Mk. IV power armor as the base like how the regular marine kit used Mk. 7. Then it includes a ton of bits from different marks. Add some chaos imagery and you are good to go.

That's another good example of how the a Chaos marine kit doesn't make sense... The Chaos Marine kit is almost exclusively mk7 armor, where even if the models only represented recently renegade marines they'd still have a greater proportion of older armor than the kit that's sold. The loyalist kit throws in a whole mk4, a mk6, and even some mk5 bits. Even if we wanted a basic minimal composition to the chaos marine kit the current fail to even live up to the diversity of the basic tactical squad, while being expected to represent far more.

TheCustomLime wrote:What I'd love to see is a kit that uses Mk. IV power armor as the base like how the regular marine kit used Mk. 7. Then it includes a ton of bits from different marks. Add some chaos imagery and you are good to go.

Hah, I see what you did there...