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Kranon and the chosen look great because they mix in alot of the baroque detailing everyone is mentioning rather than skulls, and spikes.
I personally love the red butcher models but thats probably just the vicious posing.

The mutilator, obliterator, and chaos spawn kits are the real issues here.

 Laughingcarp wrote:
The mutilator, obliterator, and chaos spawn kits are the real issues here.

Obliterators are not bad. Mutilators had the right idea going. I think they wanted it to look like The Thing (the horror film alien, not the Marvel character), with skin stretched out and distorted by the Warp. Paintjobs and scale limits them to Derp face.

I like the stuff from DV but I don't think everything should be so ornate, they are Chosen after all. I think the standard CSM could be updated a bit, but only up to the level of the new Chaos Raptor models. I think they have hit the nail on the head there.

I don't think they are too bad as they are, sure there are a few poopie ones.The Defiler could do with a bit of love and the Havocs could as well, probably the Obliterators and the Mutilators could just be forgotten about, forever.

I do prefer the Realm of Chaos era marines in most aspects, they seemed to have the right level of mutation and spiky bits, even if the models themselves weren't that great.

 Ailaros wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:As it is, there are fewer aesthetic differences between Chaos Marine and tactical marines than there are between the different loyalist chapters with codices.

A agree with much of the rest, but what are you talking about here? That's just crazy.


I mean, come on:

Spoiler:

or







or

Plague marines look much different than DA tacs do from ultramarines. CSM vehicles borrowed from SM at least have more than literally just a change in color scheme, and no version of light-side terminators comes festooned with combi-weapons AND spike racks AND demonic ornamentation AND skull masks AND walk around with autocannons and icons.

The core of the CSM aesthetic - they look like space marines, except they've been corrupted in some way - is actually pretty solid. They do look like space marines, which they should, and they do have a bunch of different stuff. They've hit a good spot with the same-but-different, the problem is their choice of different, not the level of difference.

I'm talking specifically about the chaos equivalent to the loyalist tactical squad kit. Your pictures of everything else only shows how much that chaos marine troop is lacking. I like the majority of the chaos line, there are few things that need help but what you posted pictures aren't them. I'm saying there should be more contrast between the chaos and loyalist tactical squad; that I think the contrast is less than that between the loyalist tactical squad and say... death company, or dark angels, or grey hunters. I realize those are all more specialized troops but Chaos is supposed to be that much further removed. Ultimately its that the quality of the chaos marine tactical squad equivalent sculpts aren't as well done.

aka_mythos wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:As it is, there are fewer aesthetic differences between Chaos Marine and tactical marines than there are between the different loyalist chapters with codices.

That's just crazy.

I'm talking specifically about the chaos equivalent to the loyalist tactical squad kit.

I still don't see it. Light-side tac squads look much more similar to each other than either do to CSM to me.

It's subtle, but there is a difference. The newer marines aren't as static, and have a few more details, particularly around the legs.

Now tell me that the difference between new marine models and old marine models is greater than the difference between either of those and CSM models.

It's not just the differences but the quality of those differences I'm talking about. It is a multifaceted issue that I'm trying to explain in portions and it seems to come off as nick-picking. This is a compositional issue, so all these little things contribute a little bit to the composition but are in no way the singular issue.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
I'd like to see them look more like Warriors of Chaos in Fantasy.



These things look stocky, relentless, and menacing. Chaos Marines just look like spikey versions of Loyalists with poor detail that hasn't stood the test of time.



Raz does Chaos Marines the way I'd like to see Chaos Marines done - thick, tough looking with brutal features. The fur capes really help bulk them out.

That's why i'm using them as a basis for my Chosen, they have a more mongrel appearance.

I know this is a harsh comment, but the way I see it there are too many lazy people in the hobby that just won't consider conversion work.

Chaos marines are by far my favourite models in the range, i play them for the looks despite awful rules. My second fav would be the deldar, who hopefully won't be quite as f**ked in their codex soon

I think they look awful.I'd prefer them to be primarily older or mixed marks of power armor that has been mutated by the warp. I never liked how they had arrows everywhere. I get the reason but I think it looks strange.

No horns. I don't get it. Why would anyone want to slap a giant pair of horns to their helmet?

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I think they look awful.I'd prefer them to be primarily older or mixed marks of power armor that has been mutated by the warp. I never liked how they had arrows everywhere. I get the reason but I think it looks strange.

No horns. I don't get it. Why would anyone want to slap a giant pair of horns to their helmet?

Who said they had a choice? Doesn't the warp do strange things to armor?

 TheCustomLime wrote:

No horns. I don't get it. Why would anyone want to slap a giant pair of horns to their helmet?

I don't know, ask the real-world armies that did that for centuries for no reason besides "it makes me look scary"?

 BoomWolf wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

No horns. I don't get it. Why would anyone want to slap a giant pair of horns to their helmet?

I don't know, ask the real-world armies that did that for centuries for no reason besides "it makes me look scary"?

Actually, I'm not sure if real world armies did.
I know that the vikings did not use horns; those are ceremonial.

Apparently the Samurai did have some horns though.

I don't think they look crappy, and I would also like to see an overhaul.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I think they look awful.I'd prefer them to be primarily older or mixed marks of power armor that has been mutated by the warp. I never liked how they had arrows everywhere. I get the reason but I think it looks strange.

No horns. I don't get it. Why would anyone want to slap a giant pair of horns to their helmet?

Who said they had a choice? Doesn't the warp do strange things to armor?

Well, something in the warp must have a fetish for horns. Perhaps Slaanesh. S/he has always been described as being horny.

Goodnight, everbody.

BoomWolf wrote:I don't know, ask the real-world armies that did that for centuries for no reason besides "it makes me look scary"?

To interject nerdily for a moment, you also have to consider problems with translations with old historians. "Wear horns on one's helmet" can actually mean a lot if you come at it from an unbiased understanding of that phrase.

For example, the ancient greeks during Homer's time saw horn helmets, and they looked like this:



There are, indeed, bits of tusk and horn on that helmet, but if I told you right now I bought a helmet with horns and tusks on it, you'd probably assume they were whole objects sticking out of a piece of metal.

Anyways...

TheCustomLime wrote:I think they look awful.I'd prefer them to be primarily older or mixed marks of power armor that has been mutated by the warp.

they cant do that, archetypically, though. In order for what realistically would happen to the traitor marines - they'd be wearing old, dirty, botched-together remnants - you would have to show them more as desperate barbarian savages. That would work if the space marines were the gloried defenders of civilization against a filthy mob...

... but that's not how they're going with either of those armies. Space marines wouldn't come across as the deeply flawed by redeemable type if their bad guys were nothing but deeply flawed, and there wouldn't be a reason to fear CSM if they were so inferior to their better-supplied counterparts.

The only reason CSM works is because they're space gangsters. Disciplined soldiers who gave it all up for a more pimped up ride, losing their soul but becoming even more powerful than a regular space marine. They have to bling up, not bling down. They need to look less like less-refined savages, and more like those kind of people who suddenly find themselves rich and wind up being as ostentatious as possible.

Because nothing counters pious, aescetic discipline than a neverending, flagrant display of wealth and power.

 Laughingcarp wrote:
The mutilator, obliterator, and chaos spawn kits are the real issues here.

My solution to the Oblit issue. They do a Mutilator version too. Spawn don't need a good model, because there's a million models out there who make suitable counts as or a basis for conversions.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:

Someone gave me the idea of kit-bashing CSM 1:1 with regular SM models, which is what I think I might do going into the future.

That's exactly what I'm doing at the moment, I'm doing a CSM force modelled on Battle Of Terra era Emperor's Children. This works especially well because the EC had the special dispensation to use the Aquila, but there's no reason it couldn't be done with other Legions/Warbands.

 Ailaros wrote:



Because nothing counters pious, aescetic discipline than a neverending, flagrant display of wealth and power.

The Baroque style of art disagrees

But yes, I would like to see the CSM out-baroque the IoM.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:



Because nothing counters pious, aescetic discipline than a neverending, flagrant display of wealth and power.

The Baroque style of art disagrees

But yes, I would like to see the CSM out-baroque the IoM.

It also makes sense that they'd be scavenging hardcore. So the marks of power armor would be typically older variants but jazzed up in some way. I'd like to see more Mk3 and Mk4 CSM models with other flamboyant iconography attached.

Other things you'd expect are animal and alien skins and other types of trophies, sort of like the Warriors of Chaos sprue.

These dudes would look badass all Chaosed up:





The Beakie armor works pretty well with the CSM aesthetic IMO.



Or modified slightly:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:The Baroque style of art disagrees

Lol.

Yes, nothing says "I'm in touch with the common man" or "I care about leading a disciplined, ordered life" quite like...










All those angry frenchmen weren't provoked to revolution AT ALL

 Ailaros wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:The Baroque style of art disagrees

Lol.

Yes, nothing says "I'm in touch with the common man" or "I care about leading a disciplined, ordered life" quite like...










All those angry frenchmen weren't provoked to revolution AT ALL

That would be French classicism, which is very similar to Baroque.
In fact, French Classicism is basically Baroque for noblemen.

Baroque looks like this :





Much sobriety, so humble.

Now, fun history fact about Baroque art; it was developed by supporters of the catholic church in retaliation to the rise of Protestantism.
The protestants wanted their religion to be simple and dull. So the catholics made their art as showy as possible.

So, if you really want the CSM to be anti-IoM, make them dull and simple, as the IoM uses a lot of Baroque and Gothic imagery.

It would help if they didn't vomit cogs- I mean, Chaos icons necklaces onto everything. The eight-pointed stars engraved onto the armour were fine but now I keep thinking they're dedicated mechanics rather than Chaos worshipers.

The Chaos Space Marine box is defiantly dated and, as has been discussed, suffer from looking like a spiky Tactical Squad. I think the updated Tactical box actually has MORE older marks of armour variants in it doesn't it? I really, really, wnat to work on a Legion force but having to go to Forge World to kitbash units that don't look like they just stuck some spikes on their armour and turned traitor last night isn't very appealing. For all the flak that the new Raptors box gets at least they look DIFFERENT to just spiky-Assault Marines; the Mark IV helmets, the Heresy-era jump packs, etc.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:So, if you really want the CSM to be anti-IoM, make them dull and simple, as the IoM uses a lot of Baroque and Gothic imagery.

Actually, puritain CSM would be pretty fething scary.

Take it the other way - being traitors by being TOO disciplined. The Emperor and his marines are corrupt - look at their devotion to icons and false ritual - we must break from our brothers to purify ourselves from base ornamentation.

I could see that.

Huh. So, you'd take a tactical kit and just shave off the decorations? I could dig it.

I don't like it when folks take happy snaps of my house and gardens and post up on this place it brings in unwelcomed ferels.

 Ailaros wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:So, if you really want the CSM to be anti-IoM, make them dull and simple, as the IoM uses a lot of Baroque and Gothic imagery.

Actually, puritain CSM would be pretty fething scary.

Take it the other way - being traitors by being TOO disciplined. The Emperor and his marines are corrupt - look at their devotion to icons and false ritual - we must break from our brothers to purify ourselves from base ornamentation.

I could see that.

That would be pretty cool.

Perhaps the longer the become exposed to chaos, the more extravagant and baroque they become, to represent the corruption from chaos.

The normal CSM could be all simple and plain looking, to represent fresh "recruits," but the veterans of the long war and the chosen would be all decked out in over the top armor decorations and iconography, even more so than their imperial counterparts.
By serving chaos, these Space Marines become the very thing they hate and sought to break away from.

You know...it's sad that in less than a minute I thought of a design concept for CSM that's a tad more interesting than the current concept of "lol, evil marines with spikes."

Crappy?no.In need of an update?hell yeah.and the rhino varients.Add a fence to the roof?EVIL!or perhaps over concerned with safety regulations.Chaos predators should look like something that should burst into reality with a blinding flash,before tendrils burst from the view ports to drag helpless foes into their many maws of sharpened teeth.not...predators with fences.

See, this is interesting to me. The Chaos Marine sprues are more than just a problem in themselves to me - They represent the worst part of Warhammer 40K to me - Hair'n'metal.

Often I will find myself thinking "Hmm, I like the look of the Crimson Slaughter, Black Legion and the Purge among others, and What's It's Like was great at giving me an idea of how the Chaos Marines aren't just spiky marines, but a bunch of angry melon-fethers so tired of their old employees that they are doing everything to ruin their game, doing evil things for an actual reason and in general just being pittyful but awesome villians. I'll take a look at them next time I'm at the FLGS."...

Then I go to my FLGS and look at the models, and all interest is gone - Not only are the sculpts kinda dated in both appearance poses, but they don't represent what I expected, which is old fethers who enslave Daemons, scour worlds and generally are the main villian in the story. That's not the worst, though. The spikes and hair is reminding me of something bad.

When I ask people about what music they find fit the 40K universe, I always - ALWAYS - get the same answer: Death Metal. To me, Death Metal is the worst soundtrack to anything 40K because of how silly it is - I know, it sounds evil and slaughtery and stuff, but it's also massively over the top in a way I believe 40K has walked away from when 3rd Ed ended. So, when I see the Chaos Models, they look like Death Metal cover-posers and wannabe Iron Maiden-monsters, and not traitors or murderers that harkens back to the days when the Imperium was cool and then fethed it up on a galactic scale. It is from the time where Orks where Space Orcs and looked like mongrels, Space Marines where cops and Eldar where Captain Planet stand-ins. And all of this isn't bad, really - It's just from another era, an era that is over now and is being replaced with something else, modern 40K.

Basically what I'm saying is that they are dated. The Chosen and Raptors look better, what with Space Marines becoming more ornate and Chaos Marines getting appropriatly more ornate in a twisted way.