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I'm kinda appalled at the horrible state the Chaos miniatures range still is - a lot of the range dates back to the early 2000s, if not late 90s unless I'm mistaken. It's painfully costly to build a full size legion marine squad, not to mention that they stil end up looking ugly as sin, and I don't mean that in a good chaosy way.

In fact even some of the newer models GW has released look hideously ugly - the biggest eyesore of them all being mutilators. I love the Chaos vehicles though. And cultists are also well done, as are most of the HQs especially the Warsmith. I love the aesthetics of the WHFB's Warriors of Chaos btw. Still...am I the only one or do the majority of Chaos players agree that CSM are in bad need of a major redesign?

They do not look like outright crap but they sure do need updating.

I think all space marines are bad. But Chaos ones moreso. If I played Chaos for some reason id just take normal Marines and change them up a bit. The lesser of 2 evils.

I like the CSM models, at least most of them.

I agree. There are a lot of problems with the basic CSM kits, including age and downright ugliness. Khorne Berserkers and Chaos Space Marines need redone. What I like about Chaos Marines is the ancient, supposedly "Baroque" style of armour. I don't like them when they're just Marines with spikes, silly gloves, missing bolter magazines, and daemon faces all over their wargear.

The Chosen from Dark Vengeance are great and it's a pity they never took that aesthetic any further. There were rumours, but nothing ever came of them.

Chaos has the problem of having all the very different types under one roof. If the Dark Angels had to use the same bits as Ultramarines, there'd be a problem there, but Chaos players of Tzeentch are expected to use the same Terminators and bog standard Marines or Cultists as a Khorne player. A Nurgle Obliterator is just painted greener than a Slanneshi Obliterator. There's no diversity apart from the Plague/Noise/Thousand Sons and Beserker range of Elite choices. Everything else has to be Forge World and a lot of players don't go through that hassle.

So yeah, they need an update to better show off the diversity available.

The terrible Chaos Marine models are why I never pursued my
Tall Scale Chaos Marine project further than the one model. They're just terrible, all the way around.

I was looking at the sprues and only like a quarter of the heads were usable, and the legs and torsos were very... meh.

Not to mention the stupid belt-fed bolterbortions.

Indeed id like to see some older armour marks and rather more modifications.

DV chaos are alright but brass trim on everything doesnt feel as evil as it should to me, id rather see flayed skin's, older armour marks, modifications, battlefield repairs etc

.

I voted yes mainly due to that they desperately need an overhaul.

However I love converting, I am in the process of converting Warriors of Chaos; Chaos Warriors into Chosen, with that baroque style armour and capes (you gotta have capes)

Berzerkers are great at converting into Thousand Sons (just remove the Khorne Iconography) and whooska you have T-Sons

As for Termies well you have plenty of aftermarket kit to do them justice, at the mo' I have plans to use current Termie parts with the Chaos Termie Lord to build a complete Justaerin Terminator squad for Abaddon.

Folks have to get creative, it's called kit bashing, use it or lose it.

Just because you can make up for GW's shortcomings doesn't mean that you should have to, though.

I think all the CSM miniatures most recently done have been pretty good, but everything before that has generally bad or lacking.

Alot of Chaos' miniatures have been the proving ground for GW's new sculptors. That's really pushed the overall quality down. I feel with the newest run of minis they realized this.

The Chaos Space marines I think finally got good basic marine models from the starter box. If they could translate those miniatures into a multi-part kit, that'd be what Chaos deserves. Can you imagine how nice the Cult marines would look with that quality of detail?

The majority of previous chaos miniatures simply followed the school of thought that spikey bits are the only thing that distinguishes chaos aesthetically. Maybe the move away from that has had its downsides, but even for those who don't like how the newer daemon engines look a simple comparison of defiler to forgefiend and helldrake you can see higher production value GW's trying to bring to chaos.

I hate the dinobots. LIke, really hate them.

I don't dislike the bog standard CSM, it's just a bit meh. As mentioned, I'd like to see them be more of an amalgamation of older power armour.

Standard chaos marines yes, DV chosen are a bit better but I find them neither menacing nor insane enough, lots of bling that just screams missed oportunity to me. Both can be fixed by kitbashing with possesed box but as said before, would be nice to have proper not pg13 chaos out of the box.

Maulerfiend and Helldrake are crap too, fantasyish and toylike. Forgefiend is a bit better and using its head for mauler and drake helps imo but still nothing groundbraking. Hellbrute is ok except too much horns, horns are new spikes also stupid naming hellscheme.

Plague and noise marines are ok, so are thousand sons. Berserkers are funny.

Ahriman, kharn and typhus are very good imo, quite suprisingly given their age.

Obliterators and mutilators well I was offered good recasts for 2$ equivalent each and I refused.

Bikes are pathetic.


The way I do chaos is destroying starter or DV marines for plague marines or kitbashing DV with possesed bits. Also tons of forgeworld but sadly I need to sell it because money.

Didn't the basic CM get updated in 6th? or was it just a rebox?
I think it was an update...
Anyway, its pretty damn good.
It also has tons of spare bitz, some to donate to god-afilliations, some just to have high customization (for example, the 10 man squad has 24 heads in 15 unique shapes! enough bolters, swords and pistols to have any setup)
And you got the banners and plenty of bling bits to make them truly as you see fit. and you can easily kitbash them with loyalists when making bigger groups to make even more unique teams (loyalists box and chaos box=20 super custom chaos dudes.)
Basic CSM need no update.

As for others, sure, some of the old models look a bit odd, but if we look at newer kits?
Dinobots are not for everyone-but they look GREAT.
New characters are looking good. (warpsmite and apostle)
Helbrute? awesome.
Cultist? too bad only premades, but they are cool.
Mutilators? ugly bastards, but they are mutated and warped beyond all reasona, they are not supposed to be "pretty", they are supposed to be "nasty", and they are.


The CSM needs some updates to the really old models, no more...

I love the look of all the newer stuff, but the core box being so at odds with the great new aesthetic is what puts me off a CSM. Redo the CSM box in style of the Raptors/Chosen and the quality/content of the new Tactical Squad and I'd be chaosing before you can say 'kill, maim, burn'!

I like the look of then when painted but I've realised they are awful to paint, I don't enjoy them at all. They have none of what make Space Marines appealing. Smooth lines and plates, places to customize and mostly primary colours (CSM, especially new ones, have plenty of places that are metallic in nature).

I returned to the game, sort of, after a 4 year gap and was surprised that Chaos had plenty of new "big" kits, but still had the old CSM box (that looks like they have been left in the sun for too long) and almost no non-character HQ models. My main thought was "Where are all the Sorcerers?"

I would also agree with Sharkoutofwata - the range as a whole seems to suffer from trying to shove everything under a single banner of "Chaos Marines" and is in dire need of either conversion kits (perhaps in with the main boxes?) or independent boxes. I heard a rumour years ago that they were thinking of splitting the legions from later traitors, which would have been great and has plenty of potential.

I never liked the Fantasy Chaos Warrior look they have. Too much baroque and not enough these are 10,000 year old warriors. They should look closer to the HH legion minuatures IMO.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Didn't the basic CM get updated in 6th? or was it just a rebox?
I think it was an update...
Anyway, its pretty damn good.
It also has tons of spare bitz, some to donate to god-afilliations, some just to have high customization (for example, the 10 man squad has 24 heads in 15 unique shapes! enough bolters, swords and pistols to have any setup)
And you got the banners and plenty of bling bits to make them truly as you see fit. and you can easily kitbash them with loyalists when making bigger groups to make even more unique teams (loyalists box and chaos box=20 super custom chaos dudes.)
Basic CSM need no update.

It was just a rebox. You are right in that the amount of content in the kit is wonderful, especially given how the Tactical Squad box lacked the majority of options (including a power fist) until the recent update. The problem is that it just isn't good stuff, especially not the bolters. The enormous horns are a little off-putting, especially when they meet in the middle with a skull. It just doesn't look good. The Finecast Aspiring Champion has good horns.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Dinobots are not for everyone-but they look GREAT.

I like them a lot. I prefer my Daemon Engines to be as mechanical as possible, but the amount of flesh isn't too bad. That said, the Heldrake really needs something on its rear. A tail or proper legs (rather than the ludicrous miniature turkey legs that earned it the name Hellturkey) would be great. I know what they were trying to do, in that it's supposed to look like a Hellblade that's warped into a dragon, but they really should have gone all-out dragon rather than trying to keep the stubby rear of the Hellblade, because it works on the aircraft but not on a dragon. I'm currently adding Sentinel legs to my Heldrake, and it seems to fix this quite effectively. As for the 'fiends, I love the Forgefiend. I'm not really a fan (although I don't hate it) of the Maulerfiend arms, or the non-ectoplasma (oh god, that name) head. It has a sort of sly look to it that suggests it knows something you don't and is quite pleased about it. The plasma head is brilliant, though. It's a pity the Forgefiend didn't get more weapon options, as a flamer head in a similar style to the plasma one would be wonderful. I can just imagine the chest glowing as it prepares to vomit a stream of Warpfire, which would be especially good considering the relatively short range of its weapons and how often they mention "ectoplasmic drool".

 BoomWolf wrote:
New characters are looking good. (warpsmite and apostle)

I like the Warpsmith a lot, but the Dark Apostle looks a bit silly. His face, pose, and roll upon roll of toilet paper stuck to him don't do him any favours.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Helbrute? awesome.

I love Dreadnoughts, and a lot about the Helbrute (oh god, that name) is cool, but I don't like it. Maybe it's just because I don't really like the "fleshy" side of Chaos.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Cultist? too bad only premades, but they are cool.

They're okay. I like the one with the hood and gasmask. Their Chaos icons look like they've got shuriken stuck to them, though, and they really should be a kit rather than premades.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Mutilators? ugly bastards, but they are mutated and warped beyond all reasona, they are not supposed to be "pretty", they are supposed to be "nasty", and they are.

They look like Terminators covered in melted cheese with extra spikes. There's so much more potential with the "possessed Terminator" look. Obliterators at least have the excuse of being ancient models. They really don't achieve what they're supposed to with that look.

You didn't mention the Raptors. I like parts of them, but some of their helmets are just bad and it would be better to have done something like the Raptors from the Space Marine game, whose helmets maintain the old look while being in proportion to a normal helmet. I do like that they removed the weird feet and replaced them with spiked boots. Their mutated lightning claw arms are great, though covering everything in lightning patterns isn't really a substitute for good design. Also, mouths on their jump pack harness? Really?

EDIT: It would be great if they made a core CSM box with "supplemental" additions in a similar manner as the Blood Angels and Space Wolves get. Far be it from me to dare suggest that GW treat armies in any way close to equal, but it would fit so well. They could do five-man boxes of varying theme that could be combined with the core CSM box to flavour them that way.

Yes, they need an update. They are still using the same designs from 8 years ago.

Didn't Space Marines receive a minor update?

Quite a nice update, actually. They weren't in need of an aesthetic overhaul and they didn't get one, but they were updated quite well. They filled a few of the glaring wargear gaps from the previous box. They also added grav weapons and finally gave the missile launcher the backpack Devastators get, so that missile launcher Marines in a Tactical Squad have more than one shot available to them, and finally added the missing power weapons. A lot of the molded-on purity seals were removed, which I am very thankful for.

I only got a glance over the contents of the new Tactical box, but it was very impressive in comparison to what came before.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Quite a nice update, actually. They weren't in need of an aesthetic overhaul and they didn't get one, but they were updated quite well. They filled a few of the glaring wargear gaps from the previous box. They also added grav weapons and finally gave the missile launcher the backpack Devastators get, so that missile launcher Marines in a Tactical Squad have more than one shot available to them, and finally added the missing power weapons. A lot of the molded-on purity seals were removed, which I am very thankful for.

I only got a glance over the contents of the new Tactical box, but it was very impressive in comparison to what came before.

Aye, the new Tactical Squad kit is great, and gives me high hopes for the eventual Assault Marine (probably coming with BA) and CSM updates. The variety and quality in the kit is exception, it really is one of the best out there for the newcomer or the modelling veteran.

It really is. I forgot to mention my hope for a new Assault Marine box of the same quality (I got the idea from you, actually, in the Blood Angels thread)!

With the speed of updates, it won't be too long before Chaos are the oldest book. I doubt that they will, but it'd be nice for them to take the chance to update them properly.

The chaos marines box doesn't really fit what they're supposed to look like (as described in fluff) and the Dino-bots are.... well, they look more Power Rangers than 40k.

They don't look crappy, they just look kinda dated. If they matched the aesthetics of newer releases like Dark Vengeance and the Raptor kit they'd be golden. As is they still look very 4th edition.

 MWHistorian wrote:
The chaos marines box doesn't really fit what they're supposed to look like (as described in fluff) and the Dino-bots are.... well, they look more Power Rangers than 40k.

People have different opinions on the aesthetics, but I think its important to underscore that even if they aren't the best looking, they're better made and have more production value than anything else chaos has previously had.

Chaos' vehicles are as much in shambles as the rest of the chaos miniature line. It took a long time just to get a truly unique vehicle for Chaos, the Defiler, but just like other parts of the chaos miniature line its poor execution. The Forgefiend and Helldrake, GW tried something different and they're aesthetically inadequate for a different set of reasons, but I think GW at least tried this time.

It all comes from the fact that GW hasn't given enough thought to how chaos should fit into the game and how all the different descriptions of chaos should translate into the models. Daemon engines were the logical avenue of to introduce distinctively chaos models and fluffy distinguishing tech. The problem is that after years and years of talking about daemon engines they introduce the defiler and then these other two, but without any sort of aesthetic consistency. The Defiler fails because its the simplistic school of thought of "chaos = spikes". The newer daemon engines were better because GW was atleast thinking about the warping and twisted ways of chaos that distort machines. I understand why they went with two types of dragon like forms; they wanted to preserve the sense of mythology that characterizes chaos as a threat. I think people would have accepted them better had they made them look like large enslaved daemons as opposed to larger versions of the Bloodcrusher/juggernaut. The models fail for some poor choices but largely they do fit established aesthetics and concepts.

Chaos has in many ways had the most varied aesthetics over the years. Those contrasts are why its so apparent why the model range has problems.

 aka_mythos wrote:
The newer daemon engines were better because GW was atleast thinking about the warping and twisted ways of chaos that distort machines. I understand why they went with two types of dragon like forms; they wanted to preserve the sense of mythology that characterizes chaos as a threat. I think people would have accepted them better had they made them look like large enslaved daemons as opposed to larger versions of the Bloodcrusher/juggernaut. The models fail for some poor choices but largely they do fit established aesthetics and concepts

They went for drake because of the blatant fantasyish direction you can see on newcrons or most recently taurox and tempestus scions. Evrrybody knows its fantasy in space it does not need to jump in your face like that, also helldrake is not menacing in the slightest.

Juggernaut is imo one of the best models in 40k and Id love the large version of it, sadly maulerfiend is not. I even tried to slap juggernaut head on maulerfiend but I failed (not sure why as I think I saw it done right, not sure though). Maulerfiend is too round and nice, maybe GW is high on the possibility to do curves and the effect is more and more warmachiney models. The idea to go for bigger juggernaut is the best one they could have made imo but they failed on execution.

the new ones arnt that great either (raptors). the squiggly lines they put all up and down all over the armour ruins it for me. were they going for lightning bolts? whatever it's supposed to be, it looks like crap. also makes the models too busy, and not in a good way.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
The newer daemon engines were better because GW was atleast thinking about the warping and twisted ways of chaos that distort machines. I understand why they went with two types of dragon like forms; they wanted to preserve the sense of mythology that characterizes chaos as a threat. I think people would have accepted them better had they made them look like large enslaved daemons as opposed to larger versions of the Bloodcrusher/juggernaut. The models fail for some poor choices but largely they do fit established aesthetics and concepts

They went for drake because of the blatant fantasyish direction you can see on newcrons or most recently taurox and tempestus scions. Evrrybody knows its fantasy in space it does not need to jump in your face like that, also helldrake is not menacing in the slightest.

Juggernaut is imo one of the best models in 40k and Id love the large version of it, sadly maulerfiend is not. I even tried to slap juggernaut head on maulerfiend but I failed (not sure why as I think I saw it done right, not sure though). Maulerfiend is too round and nice, maybe GW is high on the possibility to do curves and the effect is more and more warmachiney models. The idea to go for bigger juggernaut is the best one they could have made imo but they failed on execution.

The vast majority of the Forgefiend from its proportions to some of the details draw a clear line of inspiration from the Juggernaut. The head is lacking, the pose is lacking, but its more good than bad and its simply better than most of the chaos models we previously received.

40k is a sci-fi fanatsy game; space elves, dark space elves, orks, space robo-skeletons, if those aren't "blatant" already... Tempestus scions, I think were well done; from the fluff stand point they come from the same schools and worlds as Sisters of Battle and their new aesthetic gives them an equally higher empire sort of aesthetic that distinguishes them as elite troops equipped and trained wholly by the Imperium as opposed to being formed by local planetary governments as tithes.

The Helldrake not being menacing... very little in 40k is, even when its meant to be. I'm not saying the Helldrake is perfect but it gets across machine twisted by the warp "daemon engine" more than the defiler. What should a living daemon machine look like if not some sort of bestial form?