38926
Post by: Exergy
The New DE codex is out and is full of new stuff. Lot of nerfs and a few buffs, but is particularly nice if you are taking DE as CWE allies.
The HQ section seems to have taken a large hit though, with the loss of half the special characters and the old lesser haemoculi.
A lot of wargear got more expensive or worse. Archons no longer have a way to be AP2 in melee and their shadowfield is 10 points more expensive now.
So what direction do you take this All of the detachments require an HQ, and one would think that an fluffy DE army should include a lot of powerful individuals, but there arent too many options.
Urien looks alright, not great but for 140 points he isnt super expensive. T5 and a 4++ followed by 4+FNP probably makes him the most durable HQ.
An archon with a blaster is 75points, 115 if you want a shadowfield. Not too many close combat weapon options and you are giving up 1 attack to wield the blaster anyway.
A succubus has the only source of AP2 for characters for 95 points she is cheap and will do some damage in close combat. With only T3 and a 6+ save when not in combat, she does not make a great warlord
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Hold out for the return of Vect?
I think you pretty much hit it.
Urien for warlord.
Succubus for combat.
Archon with retinue is viable.
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Post by: ryuken87
 Exergy wrote:
An archon with a blaster is 75points, 115 if you want a shadowfield. Not too many close combat weapon options and you are giving up 1 attack to wield the blaster anyway.
This is probably what I'll be doing (it's what I do currently anyway).
Initially when I saw Archon's can take a Venom as a DT I thought there must be something interesting we can shove in there with him, but alas no I think we are restricted to Dark Reapers and the Court (correct me if I'm wrong). We can take a FA Raider but FA is probably our most competitive slot now with cheaper Reavers, better Scourges and smaller BPs. The option is there to drop something nasty down with a Webway portal, but I feel you will get to destroy one thing of your choice then be destroyed yourself.
I think it's totally silly fluff-wise that the DE, supposedly known for striking really fast are the only race along with IG where the HQs can only move 6". Every other codex has bike/jetbike/jump pack/jet pack/cavalry/flying options. I know the underlying reason is there isn't a model for it, but GW would make SO MUCH MONEY if they made one, every single DE player would hand over £20 just like that.
I think Lhameans have a little bit of promise. Throw in one Ur-Ghul to cause Fear tests maybe and you've got a 105 point unit that nobody really wants to go near. But no grenades and the same caveat as always - IF they can get into combat.
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Post by: vipoid
Assuming I keep my DE (I'm yet undecided), I'll most likely stick to a Haemonculus (or Urien).
When I saw that the Archon had lost all AP2, my thought was "Oh good, because what I really need is even less motivation to use him." Actually, that's not quite true, my first thought probably involved some swears.
Really, after the Agoniser was nerfed, I struggled to find a reason to take either the Archon or the Succubus. The Huskblade is interesting, but S3 was often problematic, and marines can be made to fail saves by massed shots (so I see no reason to include expensive AP3 melee weapons).
Also, the Succubus seems too fragile to trust as my warlord, and I don't like having multiple HQs with DE.
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Post by: Exergy
I read into the WWP, can deep strike without a transport. Seems all three non special characters can take a WWP, of which the archon is the cheapest.
I am thinking about doing that, might be fun for a while with some allied scythe guard or medusa
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Post by: Zewrath
ryuken87 wrote:I know the underlying reason is there isn't a model for it, but GW would make SO MUCH MONEY if they made one, every single DE player would hand over £20 just like that.
If only GW asked what their customers wanted, oh wait...
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Post by: Exergy
 Zewrath wrote:ryuken87 wrote:I know the underlying reason is there isn't a model for it, but GW would make SO MUCH MONEY if they made one, every single DE player would hand over £20 just like that.
If only GW asked what their customers wanted, oh wait...
It isnt like it would be that difficult....
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Post by: wuestenfux
Well, I'm just looking for a cheap Haemi leading a small ally detachment for my Eldar.
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Post by: Exergy
 wuestenfux wrote:Well, I'm just looking for a cheap Haemi leading a small ally detachment for my Eldar.
Haemis are now more expensive than archons, getting cheap HQs is tough in the new dex Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm starting to start to build out a list, so I know how many additional scourges I am going to need and I am running into some trouble.
First, if I take Urien, with his nice 12" bubble of +1turn for PFP, where do I put him. So little of what I am actually going to take actually makes use of PFP, so what is the point?
If I take an archon, and he isnt with a WWP, where does he go. A lot of units went from 3min to 5min, meaning it is difficult to fit them and an archon in a venom.
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Post by: vipoid
Exergy wrote:
First, if I take Urien, with his nice 12" bubble of +1turn for PFP, where do I put him. So little of what I am actually going to take actually makes use of PFP, so what is the point?
I think I'd just take him for his extra survivability and to actually make use of the model. Other than that, I'd just play him as a normal Haemonculus.
If he ever gets to make use of Master of Pain, I'll consider it a bonus.
Possibly something of an aside, but I find myself really annoyed that Urien lost his regeneration ability. Did the designers think to themselves "Well, the book isn't quite bland enough yet - what other unique abilities can we replace with generic ones?"
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Post by: JGrand
Archon with Webway Portal and a Haywire Grenade. 100 points to drop a nasty unit somewhere and throw some cheap anti-tank.
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Post by: Exergy
 vipoid wrote: Exergy wrote:
First, if I take Urien, with his nice 12" bubble of +1turn for PFP, where do I put him. So little of what I am actually going to take actually makes use of PFP, so what is the point?
I think I'd just take him for his extra survivability and to actually make use of the model. Other than that, I'd just play him as a normal Haemonculus.
If he ever gets to make use of Master of Pain, I'll consider it a bonus.
Possibly something of an aside, but I find myself really annoyed that Urien lost his regeneration ability. Did the designers think to themselves "Well, the book isn't quite bland enough yet - what other unique abilities can we replace with generic ones?"
they made IWND USR, and decided that was the same thing.
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Post by: lambsandlions
Exergy wrote:I read into the WWP, can deep strike without a transport. Seems all three non special characters can take a WWP, of which the archon is the cheapest.
I am thinking about doing that, might be fun for a while with some allied scythe guard or medusa
Take an Archon with wwp, 5 wraith guard with scythe to deep strike, then put 5 medusa from his court in a venom. So much flame action.
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Post by: Exergy
 lambsandlions wrote: Exergy wrote:I read into the WWP, can deep strike without a transport. Seems all three non special characters can take a WWP, of which the archon is the cheapest.
I am thinking about doing that, might be fun for a while with some allied scythe guard or medusa
Take an Archon with wwp, 5 wraith guard with scythe to deep strike, then put 5 medusa from his court in a venom. So much flame action.
In that case, the archon and scythe guard come down pinpoint. But the medusa in his venom, do they come down pinpoint?
That would be kind of sick.
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Post by: Dash2021
Really depends on the rest of the list on what you do. I won't waste time bemoaning what we didn't get (autarch's can ride a jetbike, but not an archon?).
I'm sitting here racking my brain, and I honestly can't think of a reason to get excited about the HQ slot. As you mentioned, it is a section of bland wargear platforms. Take Urien to make sure you don't give up Warlord if that is an issue.
Fortunately, it doesn't look like the codex needs a crutch wargear holder in order to work. The Real Space Raiders (RSR) detachment is just silly good, and I honestly think we'll be wanting to not even bother with the wargear. With units like reavers, scourges, and trueborn all competing for points in lists souping up your HQ just seems like throwing good money after bad.
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Post by: Crimson
I just can't see any self respecting Archon leaving home without a proper close combat weapon. Agoniser seems to be the obvious choice.
I was however wondering whether a blast pistol is ever worth taking? Range is ridiculously short, but it does only need to kill one marine to make its points back (this is assuming one wants to have some sort of a pistol for the extra attack.)
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Post by: ShadarLogoth
I think things like WWP and Animus Vitae (particularly when used in conjunction) are where the DE HQs really shine.
I think Succubus in particular are pretty solid now. Also, Haemies will still ratchet up the PfP for the unit they receive, that's really not to shabby.
Also, I think people were a little to quick to write off the new Soul Trap. The old version you had to kill with it and it only worked on ICs and MCs (I think, I might be wrong there). The new version works per wound dealt and the only stipulation is challenges. So you could easily get +3 Strength from killing 1 3 Wound character in a challenge. Now, of course, people might just not accept your challenges (accept Chaos), but that has it's own inherent draw backs. It's worth experimenting a bit with at least.
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Post by: lambsandlions
Exergy wrote: lambsandlions wrote: Exergy wrote:I read into the WWP, can deep strike without a transport. Seems all three non special characters can take a WWP, of which the archon is the cheapest.
I am thinking about doing that, might be fun for a while with some allied scythe guard or medusa
Take an Archon with wwp, 5 wraith guard with scythe to deep strike, then put 5 medusa from his court in a venom. So much flame action.
In that case, the archon and scythe guard come down pinpoint. But the medusa in his venom, do they come down pinpoint?
That would be kind of sick.
No, the medusa scatter, but how do you measure flame templates from a raider? If it is anywhere from the hull, you may be able to position the raider to give you or take away a several inches because it is so long and thin.
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Post by: ShadarLogoth
Oh, and people were quick to call the Parasite's Kiss"trash", but for 5 points it's really not a bad deal at all. You have an 82% chance to force a save onto basically anything in the game, and you'll grab a wound back when they fail. Automatically Appended Next Post: No, the medusa scatter, but how do you measure flame templates from a raider? If it is anywhere from the hull, you may be able to position the raider to give you or take away a several inches because it is so long and thin.
Yeah, open top vehicles are anywhere from the hull. A raider full of Medusae could be pretty nasty.
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Post by: Ravenous D
An idea I came up with is an Archon with armour of misery and webway portal. You drop him down and run terror through enemy lines, or better yet put him with 10 D-scythe wraithguard and a few Iyanden spiritseers, the psychic screams alone would be devastating. Or combo it with Hemlocks and boo people off the board.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ShadarLogoth wrote:
Yeah, open top vehicles are anywhere from the hull. A raider full of Medusae could be pretty nasty.
Only down side is that they are 25pts each and paper thin.
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Post by: Exergy
ShadarLogoth wrote:
Also, I think people were a little to quick to write off the new Soul Trap. The old version you had to kill with it and it only worked on ICs and MCs (I think, I might be wrong there). The new version works per wound dealt and the only stipulation is challenges. So you could easily get +3 Strength from killing 1 3 Wound character in a challenge. Now, of course, people might just not accept your challenges (accept Chaos), but that has it's own inherent draw backs. It's worth experimenting a bit with at least.
I doubt your archon is going to find too many 3 wound characters that he can actually kill(without EW, 2+ save, or T5) that are going to accept a challenge from him. It would be nice if it came on some character that was actually good in combat, or if it was against any character inside or outside of combat.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:I just can't see any self respecting Archon leaving home without a proper close combat weapon. Agoniser seems to be the obvious choice.
It is looking like this edtions archon isnt very good in combat. ergo I am going to save the 25 points to spend somewhere else, once he gets in combat with something you wish you had a weapon again he is basically dead anyway.
Crimson wrote:
I was however wondering whether a blast pistol is ever worth taking? Range is ridiculously short, but it does only need to kill one marine to make its points back (this is assuming one wants to have some sort of a pistol for the extra attack.)
Do not take a blast pistol. If you are in range to use it, you are probably going to want to charge after the shooting phase, knocking off a model within 6 means you might fail your charge.
Also 15 points for a weapon you probably will never fire!
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Post by: ShadarLogoth
I doubt your archon is going to find too many 3 wound characters that he can actually kill(without EW, 2+ save, or T5) that are going to accept a challenge from him. It would be nice if it came on some character that was actually good in combat, or if it was against any character inside or outside of combat.
I think you are underestimating his combat abilities just a tad. WS 7, I7 are pretty beastly. Agonisers, Husk Blades, Djin Blades, are all still pretty decent CC weapons. Not every character in the game has a 2+ save.
And, sure, many will just not accept the challenge. That's still a good thing. Almost all character have non-negligible CC prowess.
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Post by: RancidHate
Odd but I was thinking Haemonculus for that PfP buff added into Scourges. You trade mobility big time but 4+ / 6++ / 5+fnp is a little more durable than people give ot credit for, especially at Haywire range... or am I mistaken?
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Post by: Exergy
 RancidHate wrote:Odd but I was thinking Haemonculus for that PfP buff added into Scourges. You trade mobility big time but 4+ / 6++ / 5+ fnp is a little more durable than people give ot credit for, especially at Haywire range... or am I mistaken?
120 points of scourges, that have 12" move or DS
Put a haemi with them, and he only gives them 6+ FNP on turn one, but makes the unit cost 190 points
seems like a lot of points for a 1/6 chance to save str5 or less wounds
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Stick the Haemi with the jet bikes turn 1.
Then you get the FNP on a T4 (or possibly T5 with drugs) unit.
5+/3++jink and 6+fnp, going to 5+ fnp turn2 and 4+fnp turn3.
When you need the speed, leave him behind.
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Post by: Exergy
 HawaiiMatt wrote:Stick the Haemi with the jet bikes turn 1.
Then you get the FNP on a T4 (or possibly T5 with drugs) unit.
5+/3++jink and 6+ fnp, going to 5+ fnp turn2 and 4+ fnp turn3.
When you need the speed, leave him behind.
Haemis do not grant +1 FNP, they increase the turn number. So turn 2 they would give 5+ FNP instead of 6+ and turn 3 turn, they would get FC a turn early.
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Post by: Red Corsair
HawaiiMatt wrote:Stick the Haemi with the jet bikes turn 1.
Then you get the FNP on a T4 (or possibly T5 with drugs) unit.
5+/3++jink and 6+ fnp, going to 5+ fnp turn2 and 4+ fnp turn3.
When you need the speed, leave him behind.
I just don't see that use anymore. We have basically two HQ slots that should be re-titled to WWP carriers. I don't want to waste that potential on a babysitter.
If you need to increase the PfP table why are people not taking Urien rackarth?
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Post by: Exergy
 Red Corsair wrote: HawaiiMatt wrote:Stick the Haemi with the jet bikes turn 1.
Then you get the FNP on a T4 (or possibly T5 with drugs) unit.
5+/3++jink and 6+ fnp, going to 5+ fnp turn2 and 4+ fnp turn3.
When you need the speed, leave him behind.
I just don't see that use anymore. We have basically two HQ slots that should be re-titled to WWP carriers. I don't want to waste that potential on a babysitter.
yeah, again a 70 point babysitter to increase surviability of such a cheap unit by 1/6 on the first two turns. Not worth it.
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Post by: Shingen
Naked archon, cheap hq best hq.
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Post by: SarisKhan
I think I'm gonna equip my Archon with a Blaster and give him a Venom to skim around the battlefield.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Exergy wrote: Red Corsair wrote: HawaiiMatt wrote:Stick the Haemi with the jet bikes turn 1.
Then you get the FNP on a T4 (or possibly T5 with drugs) unit.
5+/3++jink and 6+ fnp, going to 5+ fnp turn2 and 4+ fnp turn3.
When you need the speed, leave him behind.
I just don't see that use anymore. We have basically two HQ slots that should be re-titled to WWP carriers. I don't want to waste that potential on a babysitter.
yeah, again a 70 point babysitter to increase surviability of such a cheap unit by 1/6 on the first two turns. Not worth it.
It's a 252 point unit (more if you buy guns or the character and gear).
You must have an HQ, so you committed to spend at least 60 points. They are all a waste of points, the question is, what's the most effective use of those points that you must spend.
Having the Reavers arrive in better shape is worth it to me.
I'm now thinking Armor of Misery, webway portal. I want to be able to pin point strike that -2 Ld. I'll have enough options left open where I can join him where I need him.
I like the idea of keeping him off the table for a bit as well. He's fairly cheap, and the hardest warlord to kill is the one in reserve.
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Post by: vipoid
What about having a Court of the Archon as your HQ choice?
As I read it, if you take an Archon, you can take a Court that doesn't use up a FoC slot.
However, as far as I can see, there's nothing stopping you just taking a Court as a standard HQ choice.
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Post by: Red Corsair
HawaiiMatt wrote: Exergy wrote: Red Corsair wrote: HawaiiMatt wrote:Stick the Haemi with the jet bikes turn 1.
Then you get the FNP on a T4 (or possibly T5 with drugs) unit.
5+/3++jink and 6+ fnp, going to 5+ fnp turn2 and 4+ fnp turn3.
When you need the speed, leave him behind.
I just don't see that use anymore. We have basically two HQ slots that should be re-titled to WWP carriers. I don't want to waste that potential on a babysitter.
yeah, again a 70 point babysitter to increase surviability of such a cheap unit by 1/6 on the first two turns. Not worth it.
It's a 252 point unit (more if you buy guns or the character and gear).
You must have an HQ, so you committed to spend at least 60 points. They are all a waste of points, the question is, what's the most effective use of those points that you must spend.
Having the Reavers arrive in better shape is worth it to me.
I'm now thinking Armor of Misery, webway portal. I want to be able to pin point strike that -2 Ld. I'll have enough options left open where I can join him where I need him.
I like the idea of keeping him off the table for a bit as well. He's fairly cheap, and the hardest warlord to kill is the one in reserve.
But why not just take Urien and get the same benefit for everything within 12" and he doesn't have to be with a unit of reavers slowing them down. It isn't like Urien sucks or anything. He is probably the best HQ option if you don't want two WWP's for the list. Automatically Appended Next Post: vipoid wrote:What about having a Court of the Archon as your HQ choice?
As I read it, if you take an Archon, you can take a Court that doesn't use up a FoC slot.
However, as far as I can see, there's nothing stopping you just taking a Court as a standard HQ choice.
It literally says they don't take up any slots and require an Archon to get so I am not sure what your saying?
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Post by: vipoid
Red Corsair wrote:
It literally says they don't take up any slots and require an Archon to get so I am not sure what your saying?
No, it says that if you take an archon you can include a Court that doesn't take up a FoC slot.
Nowhere does it say that this is they only way they can be taken.
Hence, unless it gets faqd otherwise, you can just include them without Archons - in which case they take up a HQ slot as normal.
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Post by: Exergy
vipoid wrote:What about having a Court of the Archon as your HQ choice?
As I read it, if you take an Archon, you can take a Court that doesn't use up a FoC slot.
However, as far as I can see, there's nothing stopping you just taking a Court as a standard HQ choice.
have heard about that, and it is very tempting.
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Post by: mercury14
Taking a court as your only HQ seems like a rules exploit that's going to get FAQ's so I'm not doing it.
All DE HQs are playable IMO. The loss of AP2 for the Archon isn't the end of the world because I didn't have him in CC with termis and MCs anyway. Even with a shadowfield he got insta-squished too much against the game's heavy-hitters that had no problem serving him up packs of de-facto insta-death wounds.
Personally I like the Succubus with maybe one piece of wargear, just as I did last edition. Now she gets FNP and furious charge just for living a few turns so I like her better.
My DE tournament lists usually ran her with 4x Grots in a Raider with at least four other Venoms/Raiders of assault units. That way she's T5 and can be the scalpel to the Grots' hammer. Now that Grots are substantially buffed in this codex I expect my Succubus to be more successful than ever.
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Post by: Trystis
vipoid wrote: Red Corsair wrote:
It literally says they don't take up any slots and require an Archon to get so I am not sure what your saying?
No, it says that if you take an archon you can include a Court that doesn't take up a FoC slot.
Nowhere does it say that this is they only way they can be taken.
Hence, unless it gets faqd otherwise, you can just include them without Archons - in which case they take up a HQ slot as normal.
It actually says: “For each Archon included in a Detachment, the Detachment can include a Court of the Archon” , if you don't have archon you can't take a court.
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Post by: Jpr
You miSsed off that it doesn't take a foc slot. What stops you taking one that does use a foc slot (no archon present).
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Post by: vipoid
Trystis wrote:
It actually says: “For each Archon included in a Detachment, the Detachment can include a Court of the Archon” , if you don't have archon you can't take a court of the archon that doesn't take up a FoC slot.
You missed the important part of the quote.
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Post by: wuestenfux
vipoid wrote:Trystis wrote:
It actually says: “For each Archon included in a Detachment, the Detachment can include a Court of the Archon” , if you don't have archon you can't take a court of the archon that doesn't take up a FoC slot.
You missed the important part of the quote.
Indeed, no Court without an Archon.
However, on the plus side, the Court need not accompany the Archon.
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Post by: vipoid
No court that doesn't take up a FoC slot without an Archon.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Succubus, Archite glaive, Armor of Misery.
Not a kill everything HQ, but we're DE, we should be dictating the fights. 5 S4 AP2 attacks is pretty good. Leading a small unit of 4 Incubi, they bring ~15 more S4 AP2 attacks.
Causing fear and forcing all Ld tests at -2 is a nice buff.
-Matt
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Post by: Red Corsair
vipoid wrote:
No court that doesn't take up a FoC slot without an Archon.
OK we can all at least agree that it is a hot button issue. So either take it and see how your opponent reacts or open a YMDC thread. Personally, I think that is an obvious language loophole that GW often screws up on, so I would never run it that way.
YMMV
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Post by: vipoid
Red Corsair wrote:
OK we can all at least agree that it is a hot button issue. So either take it and see how your opponent reacts or open a YMDC thread. Personally, I think that is an obvious language loophole that GW often screws up on, so I would never run it that way.
It's possible. But, if it is a mistake, it seems strange that they would change the wording - since the previous book left no ambiguity (and, it was also made clear that the Court was a special choice, like a Royal Court, not just another HQ choice).
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Does the court wording really matter?
You still need a legal warlord, and the court doesn't qualify.
I guess if you wanted a succubus and a court, you could do it without the archon. But a cheap archon for WWP seems like a good choice anyway.
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Post by: Red Corsair
vipoid wrote: Red Corsair wrote:
OK we can all at least agree that it is a hot button issue. So either take it and see how your opponent reacts or open a YMDC thread. Personally, I think that is an obvious language loophole that GW often screws up on, so I would never run it that way.
It's possible. But, if it is a mistake, it seems strange that they would change the wording - since the previous book left no ambiguity (and, it was also made clear that the Court was a special choice, like a Royal Court, not just another HQ choice).
Why would it be strange? They needlessly changed the format as well if you hadn't noticed. Now it's twice as much work purchasing gear for your models as you need to often look in two locations, let alone the third for actually finding the rules for said gear. Automatically Appended Next Post: HawaiiMatt wrote:Does the court wording really matter?
You still need a legal warlord, and the court doesn't qualify.
I guess if you wanted a succubus and a court, you could do it without the archon. But a cheap archon for WWP seems like a good choice anyway.
Any character can be a warlord though, it doesn't need to be a HQ.
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Post by: vipoid
Red Corsair wrote:Why would it be strange? They needlessly changed the format as well if you hadn't noticed. Now it's twice as much work purchasing gear for your models as you need to often look in two locations, let alone the third for actually finding the rules for said gear.
Ugh, don't remind me. It's like the designer had his head stuck in a filing cabinet.
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Post by: TheRavager87
Exergy wrote:I read into the WWP, can deep strike without a transport. Seems all three non special characters can take a WWP, of which the archon is the cheapest.
I am thinking about doing that, might be fun for a while with some allied scythe guard or medusa
I am a huge fan of an Archon with WWP with a Court consisting of 4 to 5 Medusae in a Raider. I would give the Archon a blaster, but to each his own there. When you deep strike in, choose a unit you want off the board and it can pretty much do that.
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Post by: CrosisDePurger
I want to put Lilith with 4 Incubi in a venom, lots of points in one basket but I think they could melee stomp most infantry units hard.
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Post by: Ravenous D
nevermind
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Post by: Red Corsair
For specials:
Urien is the force multiplier and all around my top pick.
Next I would say is lelith as she is relatively cheap and is a monster in assault.
Last up is poor Drazar, had he been on par with the rest of the CWE phoenix lords I'd say he was ok, but having to put him in Incubi kills him for me. He is still very solid, but the more I realized he was with incubi the more I realized they don't need him. Heck you can get a second unit with transport for his price alone.
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Post by: Exergy
Red Corsair wrote:
Last up is poor Drazar, had he been on par with the rest of the CWE phoenix lords I'd say he was ok, but having to put him in Incubi kills him for me. He is still very solid, but the more I realized he was with incubi the more I realized they don't need him. Heck you can get a second unit with transport for his price alone.
and he doesnt really bring anything. 4 str5 ap2 attacks. Sounds solid, but most of the phoneix lords bring similar or better. he doesnt have any nice USR that transfer except his incubi become +1 WS, which they really needed.... I suppose hitting Khorne Bezerkers on 3+ is something
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Exergy wrote: Red Corsair wrote:
Last up is poor Drazar, had he been on par with the rest of the CWE phoenix lords I'd say he was ok, but having to put him in Incubi kills him for me. He is still very solid, but the more I realized he was with incubi the more I realized they don't need him. Heck you can get a second unit with transport for his price alone.
and he doesnt really bring anything. 4 str5 ap2 attacks. Sounds solid, but most of the phoneix lords bring similar or better. he doesnt have any nice USR that transfer except his incubi become +1 WS, which they really needed.... I suppose hitting Khorne Bezerkers on 3+ is something
Drazhar has rampage, and murderous assault. It's 6 to 9 attacks on the charge, with another attack when he rolls a 6 to wound. Eternal warrior is great considering he doesn't have an invul.
+1 WS is to make the Klaivex hit every chapter master on a 3+.
-Matt
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Post by: SarisKhan
Also, Drazhar has Fearless USR which obviously transfers to his Incubi retinue.
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Post by: Skullhammer
I'm thinking a arcon with, shadow,agonizer, soul trap, wwp and helm of spite comes in at 195.
And a subbi with armour of misery, gleave, and a wwp.
both are for dropping into the enemy deployment zone. The arcon to go near centurions who (in my area) are always used with tiggy at the least and the subbi to go hunting counter assault units or fire base units. As to what they will go with is tricky i'm thinking just warriors x20 plenty of bodies good fire power and fnp either 6 or 5.
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Post by: Frozocrone
I think an Archon depends on what you want him to do in your army - I think the best generic use would be to have him with a Shadow Field and Webway Portal and attach him to a unit of Grotesques with one or two Liquifiers or Wraithguard if you're taking Craftworld Allies - I say either these units as you can have him out front and tank wounds whilst have a higher toughness whilst spraying Templates in the backfield.
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Post by: Red Corsair
 SarisKhan wrote:Also, Drazhar has Fearless USR which obviously transfers to his Incubi retinue.
What kills him for me is he adds nothign to a list that is really tactical. For 190 he should be able to join any unit and provide a fearless AP2 beat stick. Nope he MUST be in a unit that doesn't need him.
For example I'll spend 195 for Barahoth to add to my grots or clawed fiends EVERY time over him. Heck any of the phoenix lords flat out beat him IMO. That's what annoys me most with him. Automatically Appended Next Post: Skullhammer wrote:I'm thinking a arcon with, shadow,agonizer, soul trap, wwp and helm of spite comes in at 195.
And a subbi with armour of misery, gleave, and a wwp.
both are for dropping into the enemy deployment zone. The arcon to go near centurions who (in my area) are always used with tiggy at the least and the subbi to go hunting counter assault units or fire base units. As to what they will go with is tricky i'm thinking just warriors x20 plenty of bodies good fire power and fnp either 6 or 5.
Why take a soul trap with an agonizer though?
I'll field an archon with a husk blade and soul trap. Either they take my challenge and I can kill smaller utility characters like Tigerius for example (I see him often) or they refuse and I keep his force staff away from my grots. Either way the soul trap has an impact on your opponent, even if it is forcing a Sergent to hide and making the unit lose that LD.
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Post by: Skullhammer
The soul trap works with agonizers as there now posion +2s and your rerolling wounds on a t4 enemy and thats usefull plus i think its better as a tac if you go against wraith knights and tougher stuff.
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Post by: Vombat
Imo the Archon is the winner of the HQs.
This is thanks to the cort of the archon. I think this rule bending is a bit over the top. Its quite clear what they try to say RAI.
The archon itself isn't that fat, but with a huskblade/agoniser, shadow field, soultrap and a relic helm or armour he is ok.
Most important, this allow you to take a unit of awesome Sslyths. A raider (with the twinlink carbine upgrade) and 9 slyths clock in at around 300p.
The Sslyths needs a character with their poor leadership but you can also include a Lhamia (spelling?) with Ld 9. She isnt a character so cant he challanged. 
They shoot like mad, hit like a truck and can take a hit. Just compare them to the Grotesques.
If you dont like the Sslyths, You should consider a raider full of Lhamians (spelling?) 3 attacks each on the charge with 2+ poison. The is equivalent to str 6 wyches assaulting marines for the same points.
The whole unit costs 160p or so and is a real killer. MC, nurgle, bikers. They kick ass. And don't forget the instant death on 6s. So they are better then wyches against everything, even grots!
The only exeption is units hiding in cover. Something with initiative 5/6 and dreads. Wyches lost their Heywire grenades anyway.
So while the archon isnt that great by himself, he unlocks a really nice unit. He is a decent warlord, hiding naked at a rear objective, zooming around with a blaster, or tanking with a shadowfield.
Btw, dont forget the shadowfield buff. The shadow field work the whole phase in wich it's shut down. so you don't have to roll the dice seperatly. Even if he fail, he still have the save. Well worth the 10p increase.
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Post by: vipoid
 Vombat wrote:This is thanks to the cort of the archon. I think this rule bending is a bit over the top. Its quite clear what they try to say RAI.
I really don't see why it's rule bending.
The only reason people are reading it as 'must take an archon to take a court' is because that's how it was in the last book.
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Post by: morgoth
This.
As an Eldar, I've always been pissed I had to spend 70 points minimum.
As a DE, you can even get a Venom from that, making the HQ tax more of a joke. Automatically Appended Next Post: HawaiiMatt wrote:
I like the idea of keeping him off the table for a bit as well. He's fairly cheap, and the hardest warlord to kill is the one in reserve.
But then you lose the warlord traits for those turns - when it does matter though, not every game.
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Post by: vipoid
If you're having a naked HQ, would it be worth paying 10pts to upgrade to a Haemonculus - who at least buffs his squad?
(Unless you you're being literal, in which case I'd definitely recommend the succubus.  )
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Post by: Senstara Nightwhisper
Tbh Archon is still in top form, I mainly use him with a group of 4 Incubi in a Venom, I used him yesterday just to charge into the enemies Exocrine meaning it only shot that massive Plasma gun once in the entire games.
And my opponent was just throwing guants at him and his Incubi to try and free up her heavy gun (they were hardly going to kill it  but no shooting is good shooting), resulting in an opening in her lines for me to then deep strike in my two raiders full of wyches and start cutting up the Tervigon's, Zonethropes and everything else I did not like the look of while my remaining three warriors (poor guys, only had 10) and Two venoms just poured shots into the horde now left without fire support.
While he did die after 3 turns of Combat, that's three turns that the Nids were still on their side of the board throwing units into a big bulk for my Wyches to eat up.
I was running a delaying tactic of waiting till turn 4 for 5+ FnP and Furious charge for the Wyches, So the entire setup was to stall the nids and put them into a position where they had very little shooting left availible to handle the sudden arrival of 20 Wyches, high as a kite in Serpantine.
... Though the Succubus is looking gorgeous as well as a HQ, waiting for new model to use her though... Can't wait, also got Lilly on order... She may not be great, but I just want to have some fun trying to Webway Portal her into some poor sods gunline.
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Post by: wuestenfux
Well, a big problem for DE are Dreads in cc, since they fight with their front armor.
Haywire grenades or shooting them is the only way to deal with them.
Even an HQ with haywires could be locked against them for a while.
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Post by: Exergy
wuestenfux wrote:Well, a big problem for DE are Dreads in cc, since they fight with their front armor.
Haywire grenades or shooting them is the only way to deal with them.
Even an HQ with haywires could be locked against them for a while.
remember when agonizers were AP2, glanced any armor on a 6, and were cheaper....
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Post by: locarno24
I think Lelith is one of the best - she was nasty before and has got a damn sight more deadly.
The Court of the Archon is much like the Mek in the Ork book (which has had several YMDC threads on this subject).
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Post by: vipoid
locarno24 wrote:I think Lelith is one of the best - she was nasty before and has got a damn sight more deadly.
Could you explain how?
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Post by: morgoth
wuestenfux wrote:Well, a big problem for DE are Dreads in cc, since they fight with their front armor.
That is my biggest problem with v7.
If you're surrounding a Walker, it should be taking damage on the armor that the attacker is facing, not just front armor all the time as if it were spinning fast enough to land everything on front armor.
I think it helps make the IK a lot tougher than they should be as well.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
wuestenfux wrote:Well, a big problem for DE are Dreads in cc, since they fight with their front armor.
Haywire grenades or shooting them is the only way to deal with them.
Even an HQ with haywires could be locked against them for a while.
IK might be a bit of a problem but even a single haywire will kill a dread eventually when it is in a unit with a 4+ invul.
The bigger problem with dreads is that they show up with heavy flamers.
DE have plenty of shooting options to down walkers, and even a few combat options (multiple D6 S6 rending HoW hits), Talos and Cronos with feel no pain have a decent shot as well.
IK are really good, but we've got the mobility to get around that shield, and at the end of the day, it is AV12 with 6 hull points. I can glance that to death.
Hell, 2 units of scourge (120 point each) with haywire blasters will drop one in a single turn as long as you come in out of arc of that shield.
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Post by: Red Corsair
HawaiiMatt wrote: wuestenfux wrote:Well, a big problem for DE are Dreads in cc, since they fight with their front armor.
Haywire grenades or shooting them is the only way to deal with them.
Even an HQ with haywires could be locked against them for a while.
IK might be a bit of a problem but even a single haywire will kill a dread eventually when it is in a unit with a 4+ invul.
The bigger problem with dreads is that they show up with heavy flamers.
DE have plenty of shooting options to down walkers, and even a few combat options (multiple D6 S6 rending HoW hits), Talos and Cronos with feel no pain have a decent shot as well.
IK are really good, but we've got the mobility to get around that shield, and at the end of the day, it is AV12 with 6 hull points. I can glance that to death.
Hell, 2 units of scourge (120 point each) with haywire blasters will drop one in a single turn as long as you come in out of arc of that shield.
It's not like dreads are good or popular now anyway.
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Post by: ShadarLogoth
It's not like dreads are good or popular now anyway.
This. Automatically Appended Next Post: vipoid wrote:locarno24 wrote:I think Lelith is one of the best - she was nasty before and has got a damn sight more deadly.
Could you explain how?
Yeah, I keep going back and forth on her myself. I actually loved the old Lili, although she was a tad to expensive.
This one...is cheaper...but I'm not sure what I think about her new rules yet. I don't think she's awful...but I'm pretty undecided. Although I think the new PfP mechanic is better for most of the army, Lili was one unit that I think really benefited from the old one. It wasn't hard to bounce her off a couple of Wrack units and have here enter CC with both FNP and FC. Now the only way you are going to do that is just delay with her.
Rampage is okay, and she's reasonably beasty in challenges....just. Not sure yet.
Oh, and I would never make her my Warlord.
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Post by: Ravenous D
ShadarLogoth wrote:
Yeah, I keep going back and forth on her myself. I actually loved the old Lili, although she was a tad to expensive.
This one...is cheaper...but I'm not sure what I think about her new rules yet. I don't think she's awful...but I'm pretty undecided. Although I think the new PfP mechanic is better for most of the army, Lili was one unit that I think really benefited from the old one. It wasn't hard to bounce her off a couple of Wrack units and have here enter CC with both FNP and FC. Now the only way you are going to do that is just delay with her.
Rampage is okay, and she's reasonably beasty in challenges....just. Not sure yet.
Oh, and I would never make her my Warlord.
I was rolling it out and she isn't that great, you'd never take a challenge from here unless you were T5 and multi wound/3++ so that leaves bog standard fighting. Against marines and her maximum number of attacks of 10, she kills 2 marines on average. With furious charge she kills 3. The second she runs into anything with a decent invul or toughness her usefulness drops dramatically. You're better off taking a cheap blaster archon with haywire grenades in a venom for roughly the same cost. Do more damage at range against a larger variety of enemies.
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Post by: Exergy
 Ravenous D wrote:ShadarLogoth wrote:
Yeah, I keep going back and forth on her myself. I actually loved the old Lili, although she was a tad to expensive.
This one...is cheaper...but I'm not sure what I think about her new rules yet. I don't think she's awful...but I'm pretty undecided. Although I think the new PfP mechanic is better for most of the army, Lili was one unit that I think really benefited from the old one. It wasn't hard to bounce her off a couple of Wrack units and have here enter CC with both FNP and FC. Now the only way you are going to do that is just delay with her.
Rampage is okay, and she's reasonably beasty in challenges....just. Not sure yet.
Oh, and I would never make her my Warlord.
I was rolling it out and she isn't that great, you'd never take a challenge from here unless you were T5 and multi wound/3++ so that leaves bog standard fighting. Against marines and her maximum number of attacks of 10, she kills 2 marines on average. With furious charge she kills 3. The second she runs into anything with a decent invul or toughness her usefulness drops dramatically. You're better off taking a cheap blaster archon with haywire grenades in a venom for roughly the same cost. Do more damage at range against a larger variety of enemies.
yeah the succubus also has high WS and Init, also is AP2, also has a ++ in CC
She is much cheaper, is str4, has combat drugs.
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Post by: Mythantor
Is there any reason at all too take any other weapon than the Glaive on a Succubus?
Cause i really cant find one.
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Post by: vipoid
 Mythantor wrote:Is there any reason at all too take any other weapon than the Glaive on a Succubus?
Sadly, no.
The Glaive is the only weapon that's even remotely good.
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Post by: ShadarLogoth
vipoid wrote: Mythantor wrote:Is there any reason at all too take any other weapon than the Glaive on a Succubus?
Sadly, no.
The Glaive is the only weapon that's even remotely good.
Meh.
I think the Agonizer is still pretty good. It depends if you want the flexibility to hunt 3+ MCs (WKs) or 2+ units. The Agonizer is also straight up better against MEq, which are pretty prolific in this game. The notion that for a weapon to be "remotely good" it has to be AP 2 is kind of silly, IMHO.
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Post by: vipoid
ShadarLogoth wrote:
Meh.
I think the Agonizer is still pretty good. It depends if you want the flexibility to hunt 3+ MCs (WKs) or 2+ units. The Agonizer is also straight up better against MEq, which are pretty prolific in this game. The notion that for a weapon to be "remotely good" it has to be AP 2 is kind of silly, IMHO.
But, why would you want a weapon to go after MCs? We're an army where even the basic troops have poisoned shooting weapons!
I can understand you wanting a weapon to kill MCs with a 2+ save... but that Agoniser completely fails in that role.
The agoniser is slightly better against MEQ... but why would you need it? MEQ are not difficult to kill with basic shooting, and we can put out a lot of shots pretty efficiently.
With regard to the AP2 aspect, I think that melee is inherently worse than shooting. It's much riskier and, even if you win, can easily leave your unit stranded and about to be shot to bits by the enemy. Hence, if I'm going to attempt melee at all, I'd better have a weapon that makes it worthwhile. For example, is my melee unit going to do more damage than a Ravager with 3 disintegrators, or a warrior squad in a Raider with Splinter Racks? If not, then why am I bothering? What's the point?
Now, for some armies, AP2 might be an acceptable trade for a 4+ poisoned weapon... but we're Dark Eldar. About 90% of our shooting arsenal is poisoned weapons, and this melee weapon doesn' even give us 3+ poison. And, naturally, it costs as much as a Power Fist. That's a pretty hard pill to swallow.
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Post by: ShadarLogoth
I guess. /shrug
You could also say any army filled with Dark Lances, Disintegrators, Ossefactors, Void Bombs, etc doesn't need any help with AP 2. I suppose it largely depends on where you think you are lacking. I don't think it's nearly as clearly cut as you are making it, though.
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Post by: vipoid
ShadarLogoth wrote:You could also say any army filled with Dark Lances, Disintegrators, Ossefactors, Void Bombs, etc doesn't need any help with AP 2.
Entirely possible. but then I'd say it needs even less help from poison or AP3.
Don't get me wrong though - I think the glaive is just the best of a bad bunch, and it certainly wouldn't make me want to use melee in a DE army.
Again, the point I'm trying to get across is that melee is objectively worse than shooting - especially for a fragile race like ours. There's just no getting around this. So, if we're going to include dedicated assault units at all, then they need to do their job considerably better than any comparable shooting.
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Post by: Corollax
And if you really insist on bringing power weapons to close combat, what do the Succubus or Archon bring that an Incubi squad can't accomplish for much less?
All I can think of is their webway portal.
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Post by: SarisKhan
Personally, I'm eager to experiment with the Helm of Spite on my Archon. Gonna put him in a dedicated Venom and make the heads of all those pesky Daemon and Tyranid Psykers explode...
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Post by: vipoid
Out of interest, what do people think of the Armour of Misery?
I ask because I'm struggling to see the point.
-2Ld seems like it would be more appealing if melee didn't reward you for not wiping out your opponent in a single round.
As it is, it seems like you're virtually guaranteeing that a non-fearless opponent will flee, leaving your melee unit out in the opon for your opponent to shoot in his turn.
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Post by: SarisKhan
vipoid wrote:Out of interest, what do people think of the Armour of Misery?
I ask because I'm struggling to see the point.
-2Ld seems like it would be more appealing if melee didn't reward you for not wiping out your opponent in a single round.
As it is, it seems like you're virtually guaranteeing that a non-fearless opponent will flee, leaving your melee unit out in the opon for your opponent to shoot in his turn.
I think one might take it to grant the Succubus 4+/6++ saves out of CC.
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Post by: Skullhammer
And to put in a raider so that your shooting makes things run away better, add a wwp and ds into the back field and force there fire support elements to run off the table.
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Post by: Frozocrone
What is everyone's opinion on Wracks? You can take a unit of 5 with two Liquifiers (taking an Acothyst with the other Liquifier) for 90 points - combined with a Archon with a Webway Portal you've got a No-Scatter Template. Ideal for small games?
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Post by: vipoid
 Frozocrone wrote:What is everyone's opinion on Wracks? You can take a unit of 5 with two Liquifiers (taking an Acothyst with the other Liquifier) for 90 points - combined with a Archon with a Webway Portal you've got a No-Scatter Template. Ideal for small games?
That would be more appealing if Liquifiers weren't S3.
Seems like you'd be better off with Medusae. They can't get AP2, but have guaranteed AP3 and S4. Also, you can take up to 12 of them - so you can throw out far more templates than the Wracks and have no surplus bodies.
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Post by: Corollax
If you're going to spend that much for an Archon with a WWP, you should at least have him escort something with decent weaponry -- like a squad of Medusae or Wraithguards.
The cost of the WWP Archon is too high to spend on such a weak unit.
Edit: Ninja'd! What Vipoid said, basically.
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Post by: Cambonimachine
vipoid wrote:Out of interest, what do people think of the Armour of Misery?
I ask because I'm struggling to see the point.
-2Ld seems like it would be more appealing if melee didn't reward you for not wiping out your opponent in a single round.
As it is, it seems like you're virtually guaranteeing that a non-fearless opponent will flee, leaving your melee unit out in the opon for your opponent to shoot in his turn.
Combos with the grenade launchers and also for the fear thing... thats about all I can think of
What is everyone's opinion on Wracks? You can take a unit of 5 with two Liquifiers (taking an Acothyst with the other Liquifier) for 90 points - combined with a Archon with a Webway Portal you've got a No-Scatter Template. Ideal for small games?
Im really liking the ossifactor tbh, Liquifiers can be sweet but I am definitely gonna run a few games with the ossi to see how it performs cause on paper it looks excellent
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
-2 LD for tank shocking too.
-Matt
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Post by: ShadarLogoth
Again, the point I'm trying to get across is that melee is objectively worse than shooting - especially for a fragile race like ours. There's just no getting around this. So, if we're going to include dedicated assault units at all, then they need to do their job considerably better than any comparable shooting.
I think you are confusing the words "objective" and "subjective." Almost all competitive armies have a strong CC contingent to them. If it truly was "objectively" worse then this wouldn't exist at all in the competitive scene.
You personally don't like CC, and many share your opinion. However, there is absolutely nothing "objective" about that. Automatically Appended Next Post: Out of interest, what do people think of the Armour of Misery?
I think the real intriguing thing is combining it with other mechanics like Archangel of Pain (requiring 2 HQs of course) or Torment/Phantasm Grenade Launchers. Against non-fearless/ ATSKNF armies this would be positively deadly.
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Post by: RancidHate
I take 2 WWPs with attached Haemonculi for PfP buffs.
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Post by: wuestenfux
Makes sense. Cheap and effective.
But this would mean taking DE units which could benefit from pfp.
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Post by: morgoth
Melee is strictly better than shooting, for good reason.
Getting in Melee has a cost much higher than getting in shooting.
That means that if you can outsmart your opponent and limit the cost of getting in melee, you will always win and melee will always be the best option.
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Post by: wuestenfux
morgoth wrote:Melee is strictly better than shooting, for good reason.
Getting in Melee has a cost much higher than getting in shooting.
That means that if you can outsmart your opponent and limit the cost of getting in melee, you will always win and melee will always be the best option.
Indeed. Melee is the better option than shooting.
But this requires a decent cc unit able to destroy or at least stall an enemy unit and a delivery mechanism.
Target saturation may be enough to achieve the latter.
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Post by: RancidHate
I should add that the Animus Vitae is an absolute necessity. Sure it is a Range 8" 1 use weapon that can miss for 20 pts but, it ups the PfP counter for your entire army for the entire match!
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Post by: vipoid
ShadarLogoth wrote:I think you are confusing the words "objective" and "subjective." Almost all competitive armies have a strong CC contingent to them. If it truly was "objectively" worse then this wouldn't exist at all in the competitive scene.
No, it is objective. Sorry to burst your bubble, but melee is demonstrably worse than shooting.
Most CC elements are not a result of melee being strong, but because of a rules exploit - like getting a 2++ rerollable save.
ShadarLogoth wrote:You personally don't like CC, and many share your opinion. However, there is absolutely nothing "objective" about that.
I don't like combat because it is markedly worse than shooting.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
vipoid wrote:ShadarLogoth wrote:I think you are confusing the words "objective" and "subjective." Almost all competitive armies have a strong CC contingent to them. If it truly was "objectively" worse then this wouldn't exist at all in the competitive scene.
No, it is objective. Sorry to burst your bubble, but melee is demonstrably worse than shooting. Most CC elements are not a result of melee being strong, but because of a rules exploit - like getting a 2++ rerollable save. ShadarLogoth wrote:You personally don't like CC, and many share your opinion. However, there is absolutely nothing "objective" about that.
I don't like combat because it is markedly worse than shooting.
Can a single unit wipe out a whole blob with shooting? You can in CC due to sweep. CC is strong. It's getting there that's the problem.
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Post by: SarisKhan
I love it when people present their opinions as facts. Mind the difference.
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Post by: ShadarLogoth
RancidHate wrote:I should add that the Animus Vitae is an absolute necessity. Sure it is a Range 8" 1 use weapon that can miss for 20 pts but, it ups the PfP counter for your entire army for the entire match!
One thing I think people have been over looking with the Vitae is One Shot weapons have Missle Lock now, right? So you have a really good chance (97%) just to hit with it. Automatically Appended Next Post:  SarisKhan wrote:I love it when people present their opinions as facts. Mind the difference.
^^ This.
No, it is objective. Sorry to burst your bubble, but melee is demonstrably worse than shooting.
Most CC elements are not a result of melee being strong, but because of a rules exploit - like getting a 2++ rerollable save.
Don't just say it's "demonstrably worse." Demonstrate it. And, you aren't "bursting" anyones "bubbles" here. We all play the same game you do. All have real game experience to go off of. Many of us play, or at least keep track of, highly competitive tournament lists as well.
I don't like combat because it is markedly worse than shooting.
Yes, you have established that's your opinion. I'm just not sure how you think your online expressed opinion is going to trump peoples actual day to day experience. Many people, including myself, continue to use strong CC elements in most of their lists with good results.
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Post by: wuestenfux
SarisKhan wrote:I love it when people present their opinions as facts. Mind the difference.
Okay. With a dedicated cc unit you may be able to remove one enemy unit in one or two rounds of cc.
Shooting may be less reliable. Have a look at Necron Warriors.
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Post by: ShadarLogoth
Wuestenfux, I think he was agreeing with you, and you actually presented arguments for your position earlier.
Anyway, lets try not to derail this discussion into a CC versus shooting argument. The fact of the matter is ALL of the DE HQs are geared toward CC, and if you are playing DE you are very likely to bring at least on CC unit (the Warlord and his retinue).
So, that being said, what's the best stuff to put on that HQ and what's the best unit to to surrounded them with to accomplish that goal?
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Post by: vipoid
Ok:
vipoid wrote:
- Shooting is sequential, assaults are simultaneous. With good positioning, I can usually get several potential targets for a lot of my shooting units. So, I can start firing on priority targets, and see if the initial shots kill them. If so, great, if not I can choose to dedicate more firepower towards them or to other units instead.
With assault, the most I can know is whether a given assault unit has reached combat - I have to commit all my assault units before knowing the results of each assault. It would be like if I had to shoot all my guns, but only got to see their to-hit rolls, and then could only roll to-wound (or armour penetration) after everything had fired.
This is especially important for transports. If I take down a transport via shooting, I can then proceed to shoot the occupants with anything that can see them. However, if I take down a transport in assault, everything else will have already charged - so I can do nothing to them and they can shoot me in their turn.
- Pre-measuring helps shooting, but does little for assault. With pre-measuring, I can make sure that my guns are all in range - possibly of multiple targets (as above). With assaults, the most I can do is know the odds of a charge succeeding.
- Assaults tend to be much more easily influenced by your opponent's positioning. With shooting, you only need to see the model you wish to shoot. It might get a cover save, but you can at least shoot it. With assault, their needs to be a physical path for your models to reach the enemy - meaning it's a lot easier for terrain and/or enemy models to block off access to the squad you wish to charge.
- Shooting is active before assault. Arguably a more minor (and rather obvious) point, but still worth mentioning. Sometimes the opponent has a unit that you need dead ASAP - and assault units just can't get to it fast enough.
- Casualties are removed from the front - so every casualty an assault unit takes pushes it back and increases the chance of it failing its assault.
- Overwatch - varies a lot in its impact, but it simply a free bonus to shooting units and, with casualties being removed from the front, a lost model or two can still push a unit out of range.
- Closed-top transports favour shooting. Even if they don't have fire points, you can still disembark and fire normally. But, even if the transport was stationary, you still can't assault after disembarking from one.
- Reserves favour shooting. When you come in from reserves, shooting units can fire all their weapons to full effect; whilst assault units can do nothing but wander around and try to look innocuous.
- Perhaps a more minor point, but there's a pretty big discrepancy in the cost of melee weapons, compared to ranged weapons. With my IG, a plasmagun costs the same as 3 guardsmen, whilst a power fist costs as much as 5 guardsmen. Of the two, which do you think will be the most useful?
Similarly, if I'm looking to spend just a few extra points, I can take a flamer or grenade launcher for the cost of 1 guardsman - yet even the cheapest melee weapon costs 3 guardsmen. Even with their Relics, the crappy sword literally costs 5 times as much as the pistol. 
I know some armies might have cheaper options for melee weapons (e.g. the Venom Blade for DE), but that doesn't make the prices of other melee weapons any less silly - nor is it any consolation for races stuck with only expensive items to choose from.
But, as I said, this last one is a more minor point.
EDIT: ShadarLogoth wrote:The fact of the matter is ALL of the DE HQs are geared toward CC, and if you are playing DE you are very likely to bring at least on CC unit (the Warlord and his retinue).
Not sure about that. The Haemonculus is more of a support unit (a Librarian might be better in combat than shooting, but you still wouldn't classify him as a melee unit  ), and the Court of the Archon can be made entirely shooty.
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Post by: ShadarLogoth
You know that's not a "demonstration," correct? All you have done is presented a one sided argument in Shooting's favor. Many, many of the things you mentioned existed in 4th edition, for instance, an edition that is widely considered preferential to assault.
Anyway, that being said, yes, there are advantages to shooting things. There are advantages to assaulting things, as well. You get to do damage on your opponents turn, you always ignore cover saves, you can completely ignore being shot at, etc, etc, etc. Good generals use both aspects of the game to their advantage.
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Post by: vipoid
ShadarLogoth wrote:
You know that's not a "demonstration," correct? All you have done is presented a one sided argument in Shooting's favor.
I have explained why the core rules favour shooting, I'm not sure what else you expect me to do. 
ShadarLogoth wrote:Many, many of the things you mentioned existed in 4th edition, for instance, an edition that is widely considered preferential to assault.
Sorry, but that's just not correct.
- There was no overwatch in 4th.
- Casualties were not removed from the front in 4th.
- Charges were not random in 4th.
- Rapid Fire weapons could only fire at maximum range by remaining stationary.
- You could consolidate into a new combat (whereas, now, winning combat on the first turn is actually a disadvantage. )
- Also, most of the top-end shooting weapons simply didn't exist, and there were very few weapons (other than flamers) that could ignore cover.
ShadarLogoth wrote:Anyway, that being said, yes, there are advantages to shooting things. Their are advantages to assaulting things, as well. You get to do damage on your opponents turn, you always ignore cover saves, you can completely ignore being shot at, etc, etc, etc. Good generals use both aspects of the game to their advantage.
Well, good generals use what works. I think it's fair to say some armies have better melee units than others.
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Post by: morgoth
Assault units have far more damage output than shooting units per point.
Assault can sweep entire and even multiple units just for winning one round of combat.
Assault hits the rear armor of vehicles.
Assault can often immunize you to shooting attacks.
Assault gives you free movement.
From a purely theoretical standpoint that does not consider realistic situations, assault is a lot better than shooting.
What makes it balanced, and often worse than shooting is that it's a lot harder to get there.
Assault is infinitely more tactical than shooting because it's based mostly on movement, which is the most tactical part of any strategy game.
What that means is: if you are capable of creating situations where getting into assault is slightly easier than the tipping point, you will wreck anything by a large margin.
If you are stuck at the tipping point, you will spill a ton of blood and there will be almost nothing left on the table at the end.
If, like most players, you are below the tipping point, picking assault over shooting is going to get you wrecked by a large margin, because your choices gave the shooting player a slightly better damage output curve with a largely better integral (i.e. # shots expended in your face).
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Post by: ShadarLogoth
I have explained why the core rules favour shooting, I'm not sure what else you expect me to do.
No, you cherry picked the things they favor shooting without even discussing the things that favor assault.
Sorry, but that's just not correct.
I said many, not all. Cover also wasn't as prolific in 4th. And you couldn't get 12" assaults out of every single unit in existence, either.
My point, however, is that just presenting one side of an argument doesn't demonstrate anything.
Anyway, this has already turned this into a thread derailment, which I was trying to avoid in the first place. Please start another thread if you really want to discuss this.
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Post by: RancidHate
Well yes shooting has gottwn better in this edition. Assault units have to be stronger to compensate. They must be faster, stronger and, more durable. Oh but, they can't be to killy. Incubi are the prime example. They totally mulch the units they charge... then get Battle Cannoned or Vindicated the next turn.
Terminators in a Land Raider is the easiest example of all 3 but let's see what DE have, shall we?
Beastpack: Extremely Fast, turn 2 charges are likely. You could either go Apes or Dogs for T5 or 5++ durability or Birds for volume of Rending attacks.
Grotesques: Now that they all ID on 6s and re-roll against T3 in addition to being T5 3W, they are a rock but, they're not fast. Still, now that they can all get Liquifiers means they can do something when they not-assault after DSing in their fae.
Trueborn: What?! For 1 point more than a Wych, you get 2 attacks base, a slightly better armor save and the same PfP anyone else gets. With better shooting on the way in, it's better at softening up targets than Pistols. Of course Blasterborn is still the best way to use them.
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Post by: vipoid
morgoth wrote:
Assault units have far more damage output than shooting units per point. This might have been true once, but nowadays not so much. I'm pretty sure warriors have a greater damage output then wyches. Also, combat units are recieving nerfs at the same time as ranged ones are being buffed. e.g. Eldar Howling Banshees got their weapons nerfed to AP3, at the same time as Dire Avengers got pseudo-rending on their guns.
Assault can sweep entire and even multiple units just for winning one round of combat. They can, but this doesn't mean they will. Many units these days cannot be swept at all and, even if they can be, it's not always an advantage.
Assault hits the rear armor of vehicles. But still has to get to the vehicle.
Assault can often immunize you to shooting attacks. And can just as easily leave you stranded because, as above, you swept the unit.
Assault gives you free movement. Unless you fail your charge. Though, it is weird when a unit that stops to fight moves further than one which runs.
my responses in red.
morgoth wrote:
What makes it balanced, and often worse than shooting is that it's a lot harder to get there.
Bear in mind that, when I say assault is bad, I'm including the 'getting there' part. In the same way that I'd be dubious of a really powerful shooting weapon if it had a range of 2".
morgoth wrote:
Assault is infinitely more tactical than shooting because it's based mostly on movement, which is the most tactical part of any strategy game.
Not sure about that. Both assault and shooting tend to have movement elements, albeit with different purposes in mind.
RancidHate wrote:Well yes shooting has gottwn better in this edition. Assault units have to be stronger to compensate. They must be faster, stronger and, more durable.
Somewhat, yes. Though, in many cases, simply being cheaper would be a good start. Same with melee weapons.
RancidHate wrote:Oh but, they can't be to killy. Incubi are the prime example. They totally mulch the units they charge... then get Battle Cannoned or Vindicated the next turn.
Terminators in a Land Raider is the easiest example of all 3
Terminators are actually a bad example, and generally agreed to be overcosted. Aside from GK terminators, they haven't seen the same decrease in points as most other marine units (meaning you can get more durability by just buying more marines). And, outside of their transport, they're very slow. So, if the land raider dies early on, they're stuck foot-slogging across the field.
RancidHate wrote:
Trueborn: What?! For 1 point more than a Wych, you get 2 attacks base, a slightly better armor save and the same PfP anyone else gets. With better shooting on the way in, it's better at softening up targets than Pistols. Of course Blasterborn is still the best way to use them.
Yeah, I'm not sure why you'd want to use them in assault. S3 melee attacks have never been particularly impressive, and recent editions have not sweetened them. That said, the comparison with wyches is definitely an eye-opener.
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Post by: SarisKhan
wuestenfux wrote: SarisKhan wrote:I love it when people present their opinions as facts. Mind the difference.
Okay. With a dedicated cc unit you may be able to remove one enemy unit in one or two rounds of cc.
Shooting may be less reliable. Have a look at Necron Warriors.
Actually I didn't direct this at you. Sorry.
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Post by: vipoid
Back on topic, if (for reasons that are completely beyond me ) you insist in kitting out your HQ for melee combat, what unit would you put it with?
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Post by: Exergy
ShadarLogoth wrote:Wuestenfux, I think he was agreeing with you, and you actually presented arguments for your position earlier.
Anyway, lets try not to derail this discussion into a CC versus shooting argument. The fact of the matter is ALL of the DE HQs are geared toward CC, and if you are playing DE you are very likely to bring at least on CC unit (the Warlord and his retinue).
So, that being said, what's the best stuff to put on that HQ and what's the best unit to to surrounded them with to accomplish that goal?
Thanks for trying to get this thread back on topic.
While I agree that 2/3 of the single model HQ choices look to be geared towards melee and 2/3 of the special characters are geared towards melee I am not at all sure that they actually do a good job in melee. The Haemoculus buffs a unit slightly, and Urien buffs a bubble slightly. The problem I am having is getting a unit I feel will benefit from the buff the haemi provides. Lots of MSU isnt going to be able to take advantage of the buff in PFP.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Shadow Field, armor of misery, Agonizer and soul trap.
150, 155 with haywire.
Combat starts with a fear test at Ld-2.
Joined to a small unit of incubi.
Incubi provide the AP2 threat, the Archon starts at S3, gains furious charge mid game, and gains strength as he kills. Once he's picked up 2 points of strength (typically first combat) he's now re-rolling to wound thanks to the Agonizer being poison 4+.
It's not a wade in the middle type of unit (10 grotesques with succubus do that), but it's good fun.
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Post by: The Shadow
I'm quite liking the idea of a Succubus with Archite Glaive and, if you think it'll be useful, the Armour of Misery. It's a fairly cheap HQ that dishes out 5 WS8 S4 AP2 attacks, or 6 at S3 AP3 if it's better. That's not bad at all.
I think though, point for point, Urien Rakarth is the best HQ because he's such a good force multiplier. However, with most DE builds that I see being useful being fast, I don't think he quite fits in. You can't exactly walk up the board with your whole army benefiting from the bubble. Well, you could, with Grotesques/Wracks and a Cronos but I don't think that's the way to go.
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Post by: vipoid
 The Shadow wrote:I think though, point for point, Urien Rakarth is the best HQ because he's such a good force multiplier.
He's also one of the most durable - with T5, 4++, FNP and IWND.
Seems pretty nice with regard to not giving up Slay the Warlord.
Also, with regard to equipping HQs, I quite like the look of the Parasite's Kiss. It's nothing amazing, but seems pretty nice for just 5pts.
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Post by: Exergy
vipoid wrote: The Shadow wrote:I think though, point for point, Urien Rakarth is the best HQ because he's such a good force multiplier.
He's also one of the most durable - with T5, 4++, FNP and IWND.
Seems pretty nice with regard to not giving up Slay the Warlord.
also note his FNP is of the old 4+ variety. He is probably better with coven PFP, getting fearless on turn1 and EW on 5
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Post by: The Shadow
vipoid wrote:.Also, with regard to equipping HQs, I quite like the look of the Parasite's Kiss. It's nothing amazing, but seems pretty nice for just 5pts.
I agree, the only problem is that there's some other, very nice, Artefacts that you probably want to be taking instead.
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Post by: Cambonimachine
I was looking into doing 2 succubi each with glaive and wwp, one with animus and other with armor of misery. stick em each in venoms with 3 incubi and a klaivex and you got a couple of pretty gnarly assault units for a nice beta strike. Only problem is succubi can die hella easy so i'd be likely to give up warlord every game. Urien is outstanding for combating that but you sacrifice a wwp for it, so its a mixed blessing
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Post by: Exergy
Cambonimachine wrote:I was looking into doing 2 succubi each with glaive and wwp, one with animus and other with armor of misery. stick em each in venoms with 3 incubi and a klaivex and you got a couple of pretty gnarly assault units for a nice beta strike. Only problem is succubi can die hella easy so i'd be likely to give up warlord every game. Urien is outstanding for combating that but you sacrifice a wwp for it, so its a mixed blessing
why DS them if you want to put them in venoms? Just hide the venoms behind some LOS blocking terrain and zoom them forward when you want to get close to the enemy. Further, do you really need no scatter DS? Seems to me you could DS a venom pretty easily close enough to the enemy for an assault in a few turns.
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Post by: Cambonimachine
well the idea was to DS the venoms behind LOS terrain if available so they could be marginally safer for a turn, then pop out next turn for the assault. Also the DSing was so that i could keep them safe and off the table for a couple turns so PfP could buff them a little bit... Was also looking into Haemys instead of succubi for the extra PfP bonus. Since they are so small every death is gonna hurt so I was thinking the buffs might mitigate unecessary deaths and/or worries bout them getting blowed up before they get there?
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Post by: wuestenfux
Cambonimachine wrote:well the idea was to DS the venoms behind LOS terrain if available so they could be marginally safer for a turn, then pop out next turn for the assault. Also the DSing was so that i could keep them safe and off the table for a couple turns so PfP could buff them a little bit... Was also looking into Haemys instead of succubi for the extra PfP bonus. Since they are so small every death is gonna hurt so I was thinking the buffs might mitigate unecessary deaths and/or worries bout them getting blowed up before they get there?
No need to deep strike a Venom behind terrain. You could deploy it from the start.
A deep striking unit should be a shock and awe squad that disrupts enemy plans.
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Post by: Cambonimachine
Just worried about possibly having to walk the incubi across the table is all. Though i am now toying around with a list where a haemy w/hex rifle&animus WWPs in a raider w/ a court of x5 sslyth and x4 medusae while my archon WWPs in with a unit of mandrakes... i dunno though that a TON of points and i dont get anywhere near the table time i need to actually test this stuff out so its all theoryhammer
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Post by: raoiley
the cc vs shooting argument is fun.
but i DO think an entirely melee based DE army is super doable now.
archon with 10 ish grots in a portal
archon with 10 ish grots in a portal
raider full of sslyths, splinter racks and 12 lhamean. nasty shooting, then jump out if needed.
baharroth with 12 ish clawed fiends. beasts... going ape.
VERy little can kill the grots when they arrive. maybe one or two. kit the archon to beat up non armour 2 stuff and run with it. grots soak fire, then attack.
sslyths can cruise around potshotting. get in position early with the aethersails. when you get shot down, hop out.
turn 2 ish the fiends are in range... also still alive. you end up with like 30 T5 models with 2-3 wounds each going ape.
that sounds like so much fun.
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Post by: Hollismason
I think the best HQ right now in the book is actually in the Coven book.
It's a Haemy, Talos, and Chronos all one unit. The Haemy can absolutely take WWP , plus all the other goodies.
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Post by: Saldiven
vipoid wrote:ShadarLogoth wrote:
You know that's not a "demonstration," correct? All you have done is presented a one sided argument in Shooting's favor.
I have explained why the core rules favour shooting, I'm not sure what else you expect me to do.
Use math.
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Post by: Exergy
Hollismason wrote:I think the best HQ right now in the book is actually in the Coven book.
It's a Haemy, Talos, and Chronos all one unit. The Haemy can absolutely take WWP , plus all the other goodies.
The haemi+Urien in the coven book do get fearless for the whole game, something DE generally only had in Drazhar, but now cannot add to non incubi.
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Post by: vipoid
Ok... what am I using math for?
I can do some mathhammering if you like, but I need to know the parameters. 
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Post by: winterman
I think by now its safe to say the assault vs shooting is pretty off topic now. Take it to a new thread if you really want to hash it out, I am sure there's some non DE interested folks that would love to weigh in one way or other.
Back on topic, the idea of a haemonculous with WWP and a big block of warriors is interesting me at the moment. An HQ that is more then just a tax, that will have FnP the turn they arrive, with pin point accuracy and prefferably ObSec also.
Otherwise Urien in a raider for turn 1 FnP for a bunch of reavers.
Hollismason wrote:I think the best HQ right now in the book is actually in the Coven book.
It's a Haemy, Talos, and Chronos all one unit. The Haemy can absolutely take WWP , plus all the other goodies.
That is not an HQ choice, that's a formation. You'd still need an HQ if taking the Coven detachment, DE realspace detachment, CAD, etc.
Exergy wrote:The haemi+Urien in the coven book do get fearless for the whole game, something DE generally only had in Drazhar, but now cannot add to non incubi.
Drazhar could only join incubi in the old dex also IIRC. Wasn't Vect fearless though? Any event, it is interesting using Coven HQs to grab some different USRs. Zealot confers also.
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Post by: vipoid
 winterman wrote:
Back on topic, the idea of a haemonculous with WWP and a big block of warriors is interesting me at the moment. An HQ that is more then just a tax, that will have FnP the turn they arrive, with pin point accuracy and prefferably ObSec also.
What would you do with said block of warriors?
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Post by: winterman
Depends on situation. More then likely focus on objectives or weak areas in the opponents placement. I used to run 16 dakka-gaunts in a spore in the old bug dex and it always came in handy. Usually just to disrupt the opponents plans and grab/contest an objective he thought he had no problem holding.
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Post by: The Shadow
vipoid wrote: winterman wrote: Back on topic, the idea of a haemonculous with WWP and a big block of warriors is interesting me at the moment. An HQ that is more then just a tax, that will have FnP the turn they arrive, with pin point accuracy and prefferably ObSec also.
What would you do with said block of warriors?
I agree. It's a nice idea, but I feel warriors are better off in Raiders. They'll do less damage per turn, but will stick around longer and are far more manoeuvrable (which also helps with the first point). For me, the best uses of a WWP I can think of so far are: 1) Ally Wraithguard with D-scythes (circumnavigates the WG's usual problem of slow movement and short range) 2) Two Archons, one with WWP and Archangel/Armour of Misery and the second with whatever artefact didn't take. Attach an allied Farseer/Spiritseer on Telepathy and a unit of your choosing and just nuke the opponent using a combination of the - Ld shenanigans and the Archangel plus Psychic Shriek and Terrify (if you roll it). Added lols if you roll Invisibilty 3) Take main detachment Eldar. Farseer/Eldrad on Fate (for Fortune) and Spiritseer on Battle (for Shrouded). An Eldar unit of your choosing (Harlequins, FDs, WG are probably the best bets) deep strikes in, in/behind cover, sticks around with the buffs and causes damage. The WWP carrier is simply there for the DS, and to provide extra CC/Shooting punch, but could also take the Helm of Spite to make the unit really resistant to psychic powers (and remember, it's also easy to DS within 12" of a Psyker with a WWP) On another note, I also really like the idea of allying in an Autarch. The +/-1 to Reserve Rolls will come in REALLY handy, because with some units you want to get them in asap but with others you want them to stick around off the board where they're safe until they can come in on a turn in which they're buffed sufficiently from PfP. There's also the chance you'll roll the Warlord Trait that allows you to re-roll Reserve Rolls as well and, if it's important, you can always add in an Aegis with a Comms for the guaranteed re-roll (comms is a re-roll, right?). There's plenty of Eldar units that can make good use of an Aegis or, alternatively, you can stick a cheap unit of Mandrakes behind it, on an objective, for a fantastic cover save. The Autarch himself can then be his usual versatile self: providing added combat punch with Firesabre, shooting punch with a Fusion Gun (or other), manoeuvrability with Wings/Jump Pack or you can stick with the always-useful Jetbike and Shard build.
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Post by: ionusx
Archon for his court alone is my pick of the litter with succubus as secondary. The court makes it for me cause medusae. They will absolutly roftstomp infantry and weak biker.
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Post by: RancidHate
What y'all think of this?
WWP + Ham + Animus Vitae, with:
5 Dragons + Heavy Flamer Exarch
WWP + Ham + Armor of Misery, with:
5 Wraithguard
Allied Farseer + Shard of Anaris (permanent start with Fearless), with: 4 Grotesques, in a Raider
1000 pts of other stuff...
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
I wouldn't take the animus with the WWP.
I'd want a sure shot turn 2, which you can do if you start on the table. If the Animus Vitae doesn't come in until turn 3 or turn 4, you really miss out on any advantage from it.
If you are going to WWP it, make sure you're bringing reserve manipulation.
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Post by: RancidHate
Makes sense. Animus won't help much if it -arrives- turn 4. Ok, ok, what about WWP + 20 Guardians? A potential 48 pseudo-rending shots right in someome's face oughta ruin some infantry.
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Post by: ShadarLogoth
HawaiiMatt wrote:I wouldn't take the animus with the WWP.
I'd want a sure shot turn 2, which you can do if you start on the table. If the Animus Vitae doesn't come in until turn 3 or turn 4, you really miss out on any advantage from it.
If you are going to WWP it, make sure you're bringing reserve manipulation.
Those are fair points, but I would counter that you really don't want to have to deal with cover saves if you can at all get away with it, and the WWP gives you the best shot at avoiding cover.
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Post by: The Shadow
 ionusx wrote:Archon for his court alone is my pick of the litter with succubus as secondary. The court makes it for me cause medusae. They will absolutly roftstomp infantry and weak biker.
I'm not so sure about that. You can pay 25pts for a T3 5+ AP3 template, or ally in some Wraithguard and pay 42pts for a T6 3+ AP2 template
I think if you're going with the court, you need a decent amount of Sslyths for majority toughness 5, and then a few lhamians for some cheap, decent combat models. However, I still don't think such a unit is that good. It shreds light infantry very effectively, but that's what a lot of the rest of the codex, even the basic troops like Kabalites, can do easily.
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Post by: Frozocrone
Just got my Archon today to lead my force, I think I'm going to use Soul Trap, Agoniser and Shadowfield - costs 135 and should be a monster against anything that doesn't have 2+ armour
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Post by: Homeskillet
Frozocrone wrote:Just got my Archon today to lead my force, I think I'm going to use Soul Trap, Agoniser and Shadowfield - costs 135 and should be a monster against anything that doesn't have 2+ armour
Nice, I'm thinking of giving him the Huskblade for when one of his attacks sneaks through that 2+ armor and instagibs!
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Post by: extremefreak17
Frozocrone wrote:Just got my Archon today to lead my force, I think I'm going to use Soul Trap, Agoniser and Shadowfield - costs 135 and should be a monster against anything that doesn't have 2+ armour
If you are taking the Soul Trap, a Huskblade might be a better option. You really wont see much gain from the Soul Trap otherwise as the Agonizer is always wounding on a 4+.
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Post by: Homeskillet
The Shadow wrote: ionusx wrote:Archon for his court alone is my pick of the litter with succubus as secondary. The court makes it for me cause medusae. They will absolutly roftstomp infantry and weak biker.
I'm not so sure about that. You can pay 25pts for a T3 5+ AP3 template, or ally in some Wraithguard and pay 42pts for a T6 3+ AP2 template
I think if you're going with the court, you need a decent amount of Sslyths for majority toughness 5, and then a few lhamians for some cheap, decent combat models. However, I still don't think such a unit is that good. It shreds light infantry very effectively, but that's what a lot of the rest of the codex, even the basic troops like Kabalites, can do easily.
Actually for me the Sslyth and Lhamaean are both pretty nasty against light infantry. The Sslyth for durability and strong attacks, the Lhamaean because they hit first, usually hit on 4s, wound on 2s. They just can't take a hit back, but are cheap as chips.
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Post by: Frozocrone
 extremefreak17 wrote: Frozocrone wrote:Just got my Archon today to lead my force, I think I'm going to use Soul Trap, Agoniser and Shadowfield - costs 135 and should be a monster against anything that doesn't have 2+ armour
If you are taking the Soul Trap, a Huskblade might be a better option. You really wont see much gain from the Soul Trap otherwise as the Agonizer is always wounding on a 4+.
Would you not use your Strength (after increasing it a few times), re-rolling if you fail to wound due to Poisoned Rules? Or am I missing something here?
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Frozocrone wrote: extremefreak17 wrote: Frozocrone wrote:Just got my Archon today to lead my force, I think I'm going to use Soul Trap, Agoniser and Shadowfield - costs 135 and should be a monster against anything that doesn't have 2+ armour
If you are taking the Soul Trap, a Huskblade might be a better option. You really wont see much gain from the Soul Trap otherwise as the Agonizer is always wounding on a 4+.
Would you not use your Strength (after increasing it a few times), re-rolling if you fail to wound due to Poisoned Rules? Or am I missing something here?
Exactly. 4+ to wound at worst, 3+ or 2+ with a re-roll once the trap has kicked in once or twice.
Agonizer isn't always wounding on a 4+, it's poison 4+. Which is a hell of a lot better.
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Post by: Homeskillet
Wait, how does it work on a 3+ or 2+? If the wielder gets stronger, it just means you get to re-roll, but it's always on a 4+ regardless.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
"It always wounds on a fixed number, unless a lower result would be required"
In addition, if the strength of the wielder is higher than the toughness of the victim, the wielder must re-roll failed rolls To Wound in close combat.
Since the strength of the agonizer is "as user", you do indeed use the better number, AND gain re-rolls.
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Post by: RancidHate
HawaiiMatt wrote:"It always wounds on a fixed number, unless a lower result would be required"
In addition, if the strength of the wielder is higher than the toughness of the victim, the wielder must re-roll failed rolls To Wound in close combat.
Since the strength of the agonizer is "as user", you do indeed use the better number, AND gain re-rolls.
So does that mean that S5 Grotesques with Poison 4+ weapons against most Space Marines actually wound on a re-rollable 3+?
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Post by: Corollax
Yes, it means exactly that. But against Ogryn, they're stuck wounding on 4+ (no rerolls).
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Post by: Homeskillet
Oh nice, I hadn't seen the part about being able to modify the "to wound". Nice catch!
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Corollax wrote:Yes, it means exactly that. But against Ogryn, they're stuck wounding on 4+ (no rerolls).
Of course, on the round they furious charge, they go to S6, and wound ogryns on 3+ with a re-roll.
These guys are really brutal to multi-wound T4 models.
Wound on a 3+ with a re-roll, and inflicts instant death on a 6.
A unit of 5 on a non-furious charge does 2.77 instant death wounds, and 8.33 normal wounds. As if you needed another reason to avoid fielding tyranid warriors...
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Post by: extremefreak17
Oh my I have been playing the poison rule all wrong. Good to know.
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Post by: Corollax
To be fair, the poison rule changed in both 6th and 7th edition.
5th: Always wounds on the listed value. Reroll if your strength is greater than or equal to the target's toughness.
6th: Consult either the Strength/Toughness Wound chart or your poison ability and wound on the better of the two values. Reroll if your strength is greater than or equal to the target's toughness.
7th: Consult either the Strength/Toughness Wound chart or your poison ability and wound on the better of the two values. Reroll if your strength is greater than the target's toughness.
For the record, I felt that 6th was the most reasonable interpretation. Going from a 4+ to a rerollable 3+ is rather extreme.
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Post by: vipoid
Out of interest, what do people think of the possible melee weapons for Haemonculi?
Scissorhands seem pretty nice for just 10pts, though I appreciate that you don't want him in combat anyway.
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Post by: The Shadow
vipoid wrote:Out of interest, what do people think of the possible melee weapons for Haemonculi?
Scissorhands seem pretty nice for just 10pts, though I appreciate that you don't want him in combat anyway.
It depends what unit you're running him with. If he's with Wyches or something like that, then you probably want either Scissorhands, Whip or Agoniser for that armour penetrating ability, just in case it's needed. But if he's with Incubi, I'd go with a Venom Blade every time. Poison (2+) for 10pts is still very good, especially on a S3 model.
Speaking of running one with different units though, how bad do you think the loss of Fleet is for the unit he's attached to (say, Wyches or Incubi)? We've already talked about assault being underpowered, partly because of the random charge range. That extra chance to get in combat is very useful indeed, but, then again, so is being one turn ahead for PfP...
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Post by: vipoid
The Shadow wrote:
It depends what unit you're running him with. If he's with Wyches or something like that, then you probably want either Scissorhands, Whip or Agoniser for that armour penetrating ability, just in case it's needed. But if he's with Incubi, I'd go with a Venom Blade every time. Poison (2+) for 10pts is still very good, especially on a S3 model.
He can't take a Venom Blade.
The Shadow wrote:Speaking of running one with different units though, how bad do you think the loss of Fleet is for the unit he's attached to (say, Wyches or Incubi)? We've already talked about assault being underpowered, partly because of the random charge range. That extra chance to get in combat is very useful indeed, but, then again, so is being one turn ahead for PfP...
I wouldn't want to risk an assault without fleet.
There's just too much at stake if we fail.
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Post by: The Shadow
Ooh, so he can't, I missed the little '3'.
And yeah, I sort of agree with you there. Personally though, I think you've got to weigh it up vs the benefits he brings. For example, I don't really think it's worth it with Incubi, but it is with wyches. The Wyches want FNP and, more importantly, Furious Charge as soon as they can get it, and also the Haemi can bring some decent AP and can even tank some wounds if need be.
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Post by: vipoid
The Shadow wrote:And yeah, I sort of agree with you there. Personally though, I think you've got to weigh it up vs the benefits he brings. For example, I don't really think it's worth it with Incubi, but it is with wyches. The Wyches want FNP and, more importantly, Furious Charge as soon as they can get it, and also the Haemi can bring some decent AP and can even tank some wounds if need be.
My problem is that FNP won't save them if they fail their charge.
Also, I don't think wyches are worth it in the first place - with or without a Haemonculus.
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Post by: Crimson
I think Agoniser is overall the best mêlée weapon for the Archon. The Djin Blade is obviously complete garbage, in most cases Agoniser will result at least as many wounds, with the added bonus that they will all be dealt to the enemy. Now Huskblade might have its moments, but the range of opponents that it is better against than Agoniser is actually pretty narrow. For example, against T5, W3 model (SM bike Captain or a Nurgle Lord) the weapons are equal (and this is of course assuming no EW.) However Huskblade benefits more from Soul-trap (as single +1S usually does nothing for the Agoniser), but then again, how many challenges your Archon is going to fight in a single game? I personally wouldn't trust my ability to feed soft and squishy characters to my Archon before going after tougher foes, especially when my opponent knows that this is exactly what I want to do and tries to avoid that. But certainly it is an interesting tactical challenge, and might pay off well if you master it.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Crimson wrote:I think Agoniser is overall the best mêlée weapon for the Archon. The Djin Blade is obviously complete garbage, in most cases Agoniser will result at least as many wounds, with the added bonus that they will all be dealt to the enemy. Now Huskblade might have its moments, but the range of opponents that it is better against than Agoniser is actually pretty narrow. For example, against T5, W3 model ( SM bike Captain or a Nurgle Lord) the weapons are equal (and this is of course assuming no EW.) However Huskblade benefits more from Soul-trap (as single +1S usually does nothing for the Agoniser), but then again, how many challenges your Archon is going to fight in a single game? I personally wouldn't trust my ability to feed soft and squishy characters to my Archon before going after tougher foes, especially when my opponent knows that this is exactly what I want to do and tries to avoid that. But certainly it is an interesting tactical challenge, and might pay off well if you master it.
With Power from Pain giving +1 strength on the charge, it only takes 1 challenge to give him the strength you need.
Remember that a challenge doesn't end until the end of the phase, and that soul trap gives +1 strength per wound.
If your Archon does 2 wounds, killing the chump, and the other hit carries over to the unit, and he gains +2 strength.
In my first game, I gained 2 strength on turn 2, 3 strength on turn 4, and charged a dread on turn 5, at S9 with furious charge, glancing out the dread before he got to swing.
In my second game, I hit a guard blob and chewed through 3 sarges before I finished the unit, and walked out as the only survivor from my squad at S10. If the beasts hadn't decimated his ogryns already, I would have been instant deathing them on 2+ with re-rolls.
Soul Trap is totally with 10 points.
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Post by: Crimson
HawaiiMatt wrote:
With Power from Pain giving +1 strength on the charge, it only takes 1 challenge to give him the strength you need.
Remember that a challenge doesn't end until the end of the phase, and that soul trap gives +1 strength per wound.
If your Archon does 2 wounds, killing the chump, and the other hit carries over to the unit, and he gains +2 strength.
It gives +1S per wound inflicted on an enemy character in a challenge; the excess wounds do no count.
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Post by: vipoid
Also, it assumes your opponent doesn't just ignore him to death.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
vipoid wrote:Also, it assumes your opponent doesn't just ignore him to death.
Great, ignore him. One less model swinging in, which is fine by me.
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Post by: vipoid
HawaiiMatt wrote: vipoid wrote:Also, it assumes your opponent doesn't just ignore him to death.
Great, ignore him. One less model swinging in, which is fine by me.
Not really.
It's a model that, in all likelihood, wouldn't be swinging anyway - because your HQ would have cut him down. I'm presuming that you're not going to be challenging any of the many characters who can beat your HQ, so all you're really asking is 'do you want to forfeit that models attacks, or forfeit its attacks and give my model a boost?'
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Post by: locarno24
Haemonculus. Because (at least for a Coven force if you don't want to do the Prophets of Flesh) you don't have an option.
Not that I mind. They're really annoyingly good for their cost. The webway portal is nice - especially in a coven force. Umpty-bajillion liquifier guns on a non-scattering deep strike is at the very least 'disconcerting', especially since gotesques aren't exactly a vulnerable special weapons squad after the fact.
And yes, I'd take a scissorhand.
Mindphase gauntlet - concussive? Really? I've never been a fan of 'if you cause an unsaved wound' rules because if you cause an unsaved wound 99% of the time the opponent is dead, and actually causing said wound is bloody difficult because the gauntlet has no other rules. If it had blind rather than concussive, maybe I'd have been interested.
Flesh Gauntlet/Scissor Hand - Poisoned 4+ with lethal dose/rending respectively. Both good general purpose weapons. Which is more important is dependent on enemies - some armies, the armour save matters more than feel no pain/multiple wounds, in some it's the reverse. I rate the scissor hand as better for no other reason than the fact that a haemonculus with intentions of mixing it up in close combat is probably accompanied by grotesques - meaning an abberation with a flesh gauntlet is already standing at his left shoulder if needed.
Electrocorrosive whip - basically a power weapon for more points. Comes with a bonus against T5+ targets, which is nice, but concussive can get knotted.
Syndriq's Sump - Alright, it's not a weapon. But it does let you spawn poisoned 4+ for cheap, so just keeping your two close combat weapons and the sump is not exactly unviable. You could use it in conjunction with a whip, but you've essentially produced an agoniser for half again the price on a not especially skilled combat character, which strikes me as a bad deal.
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Post by: CKO
Quick question if I use a Haemonculus from the Coven with a wych squad from the dark eldar codex, will he make the squad fearless because he is fearless? Does his master of Pain work on the wych squad aswell?
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Post by: The Shadow
vipoid wrote: HawaiiMatt wrote: vipoid wrote:Also, it assumes your opponent doesn't just ignore him to death.
Great, ignore him. One less model swinging in, which is fine by me.
Not really.
It's a model that, in all likelihood, wouldn't be swinging anyway - because your HQ would have cut him down. I'm presuming that you're not going to be challenging any of the many characters who can beat your HQ, so all you're really asking is 'do you want to forfeit that models attacks, or forfeit its attacks and give my model a boost?'
As with many items that only work in challenges, it becomes a question of paying X points and being able to, most of the time, force an enemy model to sit a round of combat out. Personally, with the soul trap, I think it's worth it, if you can fit it in, because 10 points is really not a high price to pay for such an ability.
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Post by: Crimson
The Shadow wrote:
As with many items that only work in challenges, it becomes a question of paying X points and being able to, most of the time, force an enemy model to sit a round of combat out. Personally, with the soul trap, I think it's worth it, if you can fit it in, because 10 points is really not a high price to pay for such an ability.
Perhaps. But the original argument was about whether Huskblade is worth it.
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Post by: Exergy
The Shadow wrote: ionusx wrote:Archon for his court alone is my pick of the litter with succubus as secondary. The court makes it for me cause medusae. They will absolutly roftstomp infantry and weak biker.
I'm not so sure about that. You can pay 25pts for a T3 5+ AP3 template, or ally in some Wraithguard and pay 42pts for a T6 3+ AP2 template
I think if you're going with the court, you need a decent amount of Sslyths for majority toughness 5, and then a few lhamians for some cheap, decent combat models. However, I still don't think such a unit is that good. It shreds light infantry very effectively, but that's what a lot of the rest of the codex, even the basic troops like Kabalites, can do easily.
The power of the medusa is that you can pile them in a raider. WWP in and drop 9 templates on something all simotaniously. Then you have the 3+ jink to hope to survive till next turn.
WWParchon + Wraithguard do not fit in a raider. Automatically Appended Next Post:  CKO wrote:Quick question if I use a Haemonculus from the Coven with a wych squad from the dark eldar codex, will he make the squad fearless because he is fearless? Does his master of Pain work on the wych squad aswell?
generally any squad with a fearless character is fearless.
Also I imagine the girls FNP is started 1 turn earlier. He is fearless and they have 6+ FNP to start the game. Automatically Appended Next Post: Corollax wrote:Yes, it means exactly that. But against Ogryn, they're stuck wounding on 4+ (no rerolls).
not sure how many orgryns they are going to run into. With the ID ability, they are still gonna go to town on ogryns.
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Post by: vipoid
Crimson wrote:Perhaps. But the original argument was about whether Huskblade is worth it.
I don't see what you'd use it for. Every MC I'd want to ID has a 2+ save. Same goes for any characters.
And, if they have a 3+ save, it's usually far easier and more efficient to just torrent them to death with poison.
*Maybe* there are a couple of units that the Huskblade is good against, but it just seems like too much of a niche weapon. 99% of the time, an Agoniser will be far better - and I don't even think that's a good weapon.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Agonizers is what prevents Wraith Knights from jumping forward and beating the snot out of you.
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Post by: ShadarLogoth
I don't see what you'd use it for. Every MC I'd want to ID has a 2+ save. Same goes for any characters.
I know Riptides have skewed everyones perspective on this, but the vast majority of MCs in the game don't have a 2+ save. Tyranids (with a couple exceptions), Demons, Talos/Cronons, WKs, WLs, Tomb Spydes, C'Tan.
Also big creatures like Grots/Ogryn/Nobs.
There's still quite a bit of stuff out there it's quite good against, still. But, you know, Riptides everywhere and all that.
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Post by: Skullhammer
The problem with those mc's that you mentioned is that anything above t6 cant even be wounded by the archon (at base strength 3) so you would have to combine with the soul trap and get extra strength first and in my experiance by that time our shooting has taken care of them.
Dont get me wrong i like the husk blade but i think the agonizer is a better tac weapon over all.
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Post by: Corollax
S3 wounds T6 just fine. It has to roll a 6, but that's not a big problem.
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Post by: SarisKhan
Corollax wrote:S3 wounds T6 just fine. It has to roll a 6, but that's not a big problem.
No, no, no! Remember that all MCs in the game are either T8 Wraithknight or 2+/5++ Riptide! Every single one of them, even those who aren't!
Also, WAVE SERPENTS!
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Post by: vipoid
ShadarLogoth wrote:
I know Riptides have skewed everyones perspective on this, but the vast majority of MCs in the game don't have a 2+ save. Tyranids (with a couple exceptions), Demons, Talos/Cronons, WKs, WLs, Tomb Spydes, C'Tan.
I didn't say every MC did have a 2+ save - just the ones you'd want to ID in combat.
For about the 5th time, why would you want to get into combat with any of those? Our troops have basic weapons with 4+ poison. Venoms can put out 12 poison shots at 36". Why are we worrying about MCs with 3+ (or worse) saves?
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Post by: ShadarLogoth
vipoid wrote:ShadarLogoth wrote:
I know Riptides have skewed everyones perspective on this, but the vast majority of MCs in the game don't have a 2+ save. Tyranids (with a couple exceptions), Demons, Talos/Cronons, WKs, WLs, Tomb Spydes, C'Tan.
I didn't say every MC did have a 2+ save - just the ones you'd want to ID in combat.
For about the 5th time, why would you want to get into combat with any of those? Our troops have basic weapons with 4+ poison. Venoms can put out 12 poison shots at 36". Why are we worrying about MCs with 3+ (or worse) saves?
Because sometimes they bring more then you can muster with Poison? When you are facing 40+ MC wounds a handful of Venoms doesn't always cut it.
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Post by: vipoid
ShadarLogoth wrote:
Because sometimes they bring more then you can muster with Poison? When you are facing 40+ MC wounds a handful of Venoms doesn't always cut it.
And you really believe an Archon with a Huskblade is going to redress the balance?
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Post by: SarisKhan
vipoid wrote:ShadarLogoth wrote:
Because sometimes they bring more then you can muster with Poison? When you are facing 40+ MC wounds a handful of Venoms doesn't always cut it.
And you really believe an Archon with a Huskblade is going to redress the balance?
Mass Poison and Huskblade might. Or are those exclusive?
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Post by: vipoid
Sorry, but if you have so many MCs that you can't poison them all to death, I just don't see a huskblade tipping the balance.
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Post by: Crimson
Corollax wrote:S3 wounds T6 just fine. It has to roll a 6, but that's not a big problem.
Yes, but Agoniser wounds three times as likely, so it would have dealt three wounds for every one ID wound from the Huskblade.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
H-Coven has the answer.
Put the haemonculus with the 10 point artifact in with the achron(s) with husk blade(s). Choose to give the whole unit poison 4+.
Now you have 4+ to wound AP3 instant death.
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Post by: vipoid
As a question, are you guys not at all concerned about sending an archon to do battle with a MC (who generally have at least S6)?
Seems like you're just asking to be insta-killed.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
vipoid wrote:As a question, are you guys not at all concerned about sending an archon to do battle with a MC (who generally have at least S6)?
Seems like you're just asking to be insta-killed.
He's leading the wyches to tank the hits with their 4++. They are all dishing out 4+ poison attacks, thanks to the haemonculus.
-Matt
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Post by: Red Corsair
Crimson wrote:Corollax wrote:S3 wounds T6 just fine. It has to roll a 6, but that's not a big problem.
Yes, but Agoniser wounds three times as likely, so it would have dealt three wounds for every one ID wound from the Huskblade.
Every MC we can wound has 4+ wounds meaning the Huskblade is in fact better for such a role.
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Post by: labmouse42
Lelith Hesprax is an excellent mid-range beatstick IC for the point cost.
Lelith is not Vect. She is mid-range in cost, and excellent at what she does for the cost.
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Post by: vipoid
 labmouse42 wrote:
However, she will slice infantry squads to ribbons. When assaulting, she will swing an average of 9 times and deliver 4.4 wounds at I9. Her wounds do not allow normal saves, so are effectively AP2 for purposes of infantry.
Where are you getting 4.4 from?
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
vipoid wrote: labmouse42 wrote:
However, she will slice infantry squads to ribbons. When assaulting, she will swing an average of 9 times and deliver 4.4 wounds at I9. Her wounds do not allow normal saves, so are effectively AP2 for purposes of infantry.
Where are you getting 4.4 from?
Normal:
9 attacks, 6 hits. Wound on 5+, and re-roll 1's for buying the impaler. 6 hits, 2 wounds, 1 re-roll. Re-roll gets .33 wounds. 2.33 wounds.
If furious w/Impaler: 9 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds, +1 re-roll for 0.5 more wounds. 3.5 wounds.
In challenge, re-roll all to hit and to wound rolls. 9 attacks, 8 hits, 4.4 wounds.
If Furious and Challenge: 9 attacks, 8 hits, 6 wounds.
So, don't accept the challenge, and she does 2.33 wounds, or 3.5 wounds w/furious charge.
A succubus w/glaive is doing
1.66 wounds with +1 Init, LD, WS or Toughness drugs.
2.0 wounds with +1A drug
2.22 wounds with +1S drug
With Furious, your looking at:
2.22 wounds for most drugs
2.66 wounds w/Adrenalight(+1A)
2.77 wounds w/Grave Lotus (+1S)
And that's 95 points vs 150 (2 weapons) to 165 (impaler)
You at best gaining .67 wounds, and 1 better ward in combat for ~55 to 70 points.
At worst, you fight something T5, and the stock Succubus w/glaive does better.
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Post by: vipoid
So, 4.4 is only in a challenge - not for slicing infantry.
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Post by: SarisKhan
I'd never send an Archon to combat an MC alone. With assault grenades and Init 7 he's likely to strike first anyway.
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Post by: Corollax
Crimson wrote:Corollax wrote:S3 wounds T6 just fine. It has to roll a 6, but that's not a big problem.
Yes, but Agoniser wounds three times as likely, so it would have dealt three wounds for every one ID wound from the Huskblade.
In this particular scenario, yes. If the target's toughness were lower, or if the Archon had strength increases from furious charge or previous soul trap boost, that ratio would change.
The huskblade also has the advantage of negating FNP.
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Post by: Exergy
Corollax wrote: Crimson wrote:Corollax wrote:S3 wounds T6 just fine. It has to roll a 6, but that's not a big problem.
Yes, but Agoniser wounds three times as likely, so it would have dealt three wounds for every one ID wound from the Huskblade.
In this particular scenario, yes. If the target's toughness were lower, or if the Archon had strength increases from furious charge or previous soul trap boost, that ratio would change.
The huskblade also has the advantage of negating FNP.
if one of those were true, you would have Str3 on T5, or Str4 on T6, which is still 6s to wound. You need multiple soul trap boosts to get anywhere near reliably putting wounds on T6.
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Post by: ShadarLogoth
HawaiiMatt wrote:H-Coven has the answer.
Put the haemonculus with the 10 point artifact in with the achron(s) with husk blade(s). Choose to give the whole unit poison 4+.
Now you have 4+ to wound AP3 instant death.
This.
This is quite intriguing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vipoid wrote:As a question, are you guys not at all concerned about sending an archon to do battle with a MC (who generally have at least S6)?
Seems like you're just asking to be insta-killed.
Well...so is he (or she, or whatever lol). And, you strike first. Even if you are only wounding on 6's. you still have a pretty reasonable chance of insta-gibbing them. They shouldn't be getting a save, or often, at best, a 5++ or something.
Also, you have a 2++. That's kind of what it's there for.
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Post by: Hollismason
Or you could just take the 2+ poisoned, Instant Death on a 6 guys.
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Post by: Cambonimachine
Yeah i have been looking more and more at those Lhameans... they are just SO squishy.... and the Sslyth are so sweet with splinter racks...
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Post by: Hollismason
Yeah the Court of the Archon is crazy good value.
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Post by: lessthanjeff
HawaiiMatt wrote:H-Coven has the answer.
Put the haemonculus with the 10 point artifact in with the achron(s) with husk blade(s). Choose to give the whole unit poison 4+.
Now you have 4+ to wound AP3 instant death.
The Sump doesn't give the whole unit that rule, just the model carrying it.
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