7th edition DE HQ, what do you take?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Corollax**

To be fair, the poison rule changed in both 6th and 7th edition.

5th: Always wounds on the listed value. Reroll if your strength is greater than or equal to the target's toughness.

6th: Consult either the Strength/Toughness Wound chart or your poison ability and wound on the better of the two values. Reroll if your strength is greater than or equal to the target's toughness.

7th: Consult either the Strength/Toughness Wound chart or your poison ability and wound on the better of the two values. Reroll if your strength is greater than the target's toughness.

For the record, I felt that 6th was the most reasonable interpretation. Going from a 4+ to a rerollable 3+ is rather extreme.

**vipoid**

Out of interest, what do people think of the possible melee weapons for Haemonculi?

Scissorhands seem pretty nice for just 10pts, though I appreciate that you don't want him in combat anyway.

**The Shadow**

vipoid wrote:
Out of interest, what do people think of the possible melee weapons for Haemonculi?

Scissorhands seem pretty nice for just 10pts, though I appreciate that you don't want him in combat anyway.

It depends what unit you're running him with. If he's with Wyches or something like that, then you probably want either Scissorhands, Whip or Agoniser for that armour penetrating ability, just in case it's needed. But if he's with Incubi, I'd go with a Venom Blade every time. Poison (2+) for 10pts is still very good, especially on a S3 model.

Speaking of running one with different units though, how bad do you think the loss of Fleet is for the unit he's attached to (say, Wyches or Incubi)? We've already talked about assault being underpowered, partly because of the random charge range. That extra chance to get in combat is very useful indeed, but, then again, so is being one turn ahead for PfP...

**vipoid**

The Shadow wrote:

It depends what unit you're running him with. If he's with Wyches or something like that, then you probably want either Scissorhands, Whip or Agoniser for that armour penetrating ability, just in case it's needed. But if he's with Incubi, I'd go with a Venom Blade every time. Poison (2+) for 10pts is still very good, especially on a S3 model.

He can't take a Venom Blade.

The Shadow wrote:
Speaking of running one with different units though, how bad do you think the loss of Fleet is for the unit he's attached to (say, Wyches or Incubi)? We've already talked about assault being underpowered, partly because of the random charge range. That extra chance to get in combat is very useful indeed, but, then again, so is being one turn ahead for PfP...

I wouldn't want to risk an assault without fleet.

There's just too much at stake if we fail.

**The Shadow**

Ooh, so he can't, I missed the little '3'.

And yeah, I sort of agree with you there. Personally though, I think you've got to weigh it up vs the benefits he brings. For example, I don't really think it's worth it with Incubi, but it is with wyches. The Wyches want FNP and, more importantly, Furious Charge as soon as they can get it, and also the Haemi can bring some decent AP and can even tank some wounds if need be.

**vipoid**

The Shadow wrote:
And yeah, I sort of agree with you there. Personally though, I think you've got to weigh it up vs the benefits he brings. For example, I don't really think it's worth it with Incubi, but it is with wyches. The Wyches want FNP and, more importantly, Furious Charge as soon as they can get it, and also the Haemi can bring some decent AP and can even tank some wounds if need be.

My problem is that FNP won't save them if they fail their charge.

Also, I don't think wyches are worth it in the first place - with or without a Haemonculus.

**Crimson**

I think Agoniser is overall the best mêlée weapon for the Archon. The Djin Blade is obviously complete garbage, in most cases Agoniser will result at least as many wounds, with the added bonus that they will all be dealt to the enemy. Now Huskblade might have its moments, but the range of opponents that it is better against than Agoniser is actually pretty narrow. For example, against T5, W3 model (SM bike Captain or a Nurgle Lord) the weapons are equal (and this is of course assuming no EW.) However Huskblade benefits more from Soul-trap (as single +1S usually does nothing for the Agoniser), but then again, how many challenges your Archon is going to fight in a single game? I personally wouldn't trust my ability to feed soft and squishy characters to my Archon before going after tougher foes, especially when my opponent knows that this is exactly what I want to do and tries to avoid that. But certainly it is an interesting tactical challenge, and might pay off well if you master it.

**HawaiiMatt**

Crimson wrote:
I think Agoniser is overall the best mêlée weapon for the Archon. The Djin Blade is obviously complete garbage, in most cases Agoniser will result at least as many wounds, with the added bonus that they will all be dealt to the enemy. Now Huskblade might have its moments, but the range of opponents that it is better against than Agoniser is actually pretty narrow. For example, against T5, W3 model (SM bike Captain or a Nurgle Lord) the weapons are equal (and this is of course assuming no EW.) However Huskblade benefits more from Soul-trap (as single +1S usually does nothing for the Agoniser), but then again, how many challenges your Archon is going to fight in a single game? I personally wouldn't trust my ability to feed soft and squishy characters to my Archon before going after tougher foes, especially when my opponent knows that this is exactly what I want to do and tries to avoid that. But certainly it is an interesting tactical challenge, and might pay off well if you master it.

With Power from Pain giving +1 strength on the charge, it only takes 1 challenge to give him the strength you need.
Remember that a challenge doesn't end until the end of the phase, and that soul trap gives +1 strength per wound.
If your Archon does 2 wounds, killing the chump, and the other hit carries over to the unit, and he gains +2 strength.

In my first game, I gained 2 strength on turn 2, 3 strength on turn 4, and charged a dread on turn 5, at S9 with furious charge, glancing out the dread before he got to swing.
In my second game, I hit a guard blob and chewed through 3 sarges before I finished the unit, and walked out as the only survivor from my squad at S10. If the beasts hadn't decimated his ogryns already, I would have been instant deathing them on 2+ with re-rolls.

Soul Trap is totally with 10 points.

**Crimson**

HawaiiMatt wrote:

With Power from Pain giving +1 strength on the charge, it only takes 1 challenge to give him the strength you need.
Remember that a challenge doesn't end until the end of the phase, and that soul trap gives +1 strength per wound.
If your Archon does 2 wounds, killing the chump, and the other hit carries over to the unit, and he gains +2 strength.

It gives +1S per wound inflicted on an enemy character in a challenge; the excess wounds do no count.

**vipoid**

Also, it assumes your opponent doesn't just ignore him to death.

**HawaiiMatt**

vipoid wrote:
Also, it assumes your opponent doesn't just ignore him to death.

Great, ignore him. One less model swinging in, which is fine by me.

**vipoid**

HawaiiMatt wrote:
vipoid wrote:
Also, it assumes your opponent doesn't just ignore him to death.

Great, ignore him. One less model swinging in, which is fine by me.

Not really.

It's a model that, in all likelihood, wouldn't be swinging anyway - because your HQ would have cut him down. I'm presuming that you're not going to be challenging any of the many characters who can beat your HQ, so all you're really asking is 'do you want to forfeit that models attacks, or forfeit its attacks and give my model a boost?'

**locarno24**

Haemonculus. Because (at least for a Coven force if you don't want to do the Prophets of Flesh) you don't have an option.

Not that I mind. They're really annoyingly good for their cost. The webway portal is nice - especially in a coven force. Umpty-bajillion liquifier guns on a non-scattering deep strike is at the very least 'disconcerting', especially since gotesques aren't exactly a vulnerable special weapons squad after the fact.

And yes, I'd take a scissorhand.

Mindphase gauntlet - concussive? Really? I've never been a fan of 'if you cause an unsaved wound' rules because if you cause an unsaved wound 99% of the time the opponent is dead, and actually causing said wound is bloody difficult because the gauntlet has no other rules. If it had blind rather than concussive, maybe I'd have been interested.

Flesh Gauntlet/Scissor Hand - Poisoned 4+ with lethal dose/rending respectively. Both good general purpose weapons. Which is more important is dependent on enemies - some armies, the armour save matters more than feel no pain/multiple wounds, in some it's the reverse. I rate the scissor hand as better for no other reason than the fact that a haemonculus with intentions of mixing it up in close combat is probably accompanied by grotesques - meaning an abberation with a flesh gauntlet is already standing at his left shoulder if needed.

Electrocorrosive whip - basically a power weapon for more points. Comes with a bonus against T5+ targets, which is nice, but concussive can get knotted.

Syndriq's Sump - Alright, it's not a weapon. But it does let you spawn poisoned 4+ for cheap, so just keeping your two close combat weapons and the sump is not exactly unviable. You could use it in conjunction with a whip, but you've essentially produced an agoniser for half again the price on a not especially skilled combat character, which strikes me as a bad deal.

**CKO**

Quick question if I use a Haemonculus from the Coven with a wych squad from the dark eldar codex, will he make the squad fearless because he is fearless? Does his master of Pain work on the wych squad aswell?

**The Shadow**

vipoid wrote:
HawaiiMatt wrote:
vipoid wrote:
Also, it assumes your opponent doesn't just ignore him to death.

Great, ignore him. One less model swinging in, which is fine by me.

Not really.

It's a model that, in all likelihood, wouldn't be swinging anyway - because your HQ would have cut him down. I'm presuming that you're not going to be challenging any of the many characters who can beat your HQ, so all you're really asking is 'do you want to forfeit that models attacks, or forfeit its attacks and give my model a boost?'

As with many items that only work in challenges, it becomes a question of paying X points and being able to, most of the time, force an enemy model to sit a round of combat out. Personally, with the soul trap, I think it's worth it, if you can fit it in, because 10 points is really not a high price to pay for such an ability.

**Crimson**

The Shadow wrote:

As with many items that only work in challenges, it becomes a question of paying X points and being able to, most of the time, force an enemy model to sit a round of combat out. Personally, with the soul trap, I think it's worth it, if you can fit it in, because 10 points is really not a high price to pay for such an ability.

Perhaps. But the original argument was about whether Huskblade is worth it.

**Exergy**

The Shadow wrote:
ionusx wrote:
Archon for his court alone is my pick of the litter with succubus as secondary. The court makes it for me cause medusae. They will absolutly roftstomp infantry and weak biker.

I'm not so sure about that. You can pay 25pts for a T3 5+ AP3 template, or ally in some Wraithguard and pay 42pts for a T6 3+ AP2 template

I think if you're going with the court, you need a decent amount of Sslyths for majority toughness 5, and then a few lhamians for some cheap, decent combat models. However, I still don't think such a unit is that good. It shreds light infantry very effectively, but that's what a lot of the rest of the codex, even the basic troops like Kabalites, can do easily.

The power of the medusa is that you can pile them in a raider. WWP in and drop 9 templates on something all simotaniously. Then you have the 3+ jink to hope to survive till next turn.

WWParchon + Wraithguard do not fit in a raider.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

CKO wrote:
Quick question if I use a Haemonculus from the Coven with a wych squad from the dark eldar codex, will he make the squad fearless because he is fearless? Does his master of Pain work on the wych squad aswell?

generally any squad with a fearless character is fearless.

Also I imagine the girls FNP is started 1 turn earlier. He is fearless and they have 6+ FNP to start the game.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Corollax wrote:
Yes, it means exactly that. But against Ogryn, they're stuck wounding on 4+ (no rerolls).

not sure how many orgryns they are going to run into. With the ID ability, they are still gonna go to town on ogryns.

**vipoid**

Crimson wrote:
Perhaps. But the original argument was about whether Huskblade is worth it.

I don't see what you'd use it for. Every MC I'd want to ID has a 2+ save. Same goes for any characters.

And, if they have a 3+ save, it's usually far easier and more efficient to just torrent them to death with poison.

*Maybe* there are a couple of units that the Huskblade is good against, but it just seems like too much of a niche weapon. 99% of the time, an Agoniser will be far better - and I don't even think that's a good weapon.

**HawaiiMatt**

Agonizers is what prevents Wraith Knights from jumping forward and beating the snot out of you.

**ShadarLogoth**

I don't see what you'd use it for. Every MC I'd want to ID has a 2+ save. Same goes for any characters.

I know Riptides have skewed everyones perspective on this, but the vast majority of MCs in the game don't have a 2+ save. Tyranids (with a couple exceptions), Demons, Talos/Cronons, WKs, WLs, Tomb Spydes, C'Tan.

Also big creatures like Grots/Ogryn/Nobs.

There's still quite a bit of stuff out there it's quite good against, still. But, you know, Riptides everywhere and all that.

**Skullhammer**

The problem with those mc's that you mentioned is that anything above t6 cant even be wounded by the archon (at base strength 3) so you would have to combine with the soul trap and get extra strength first and in my experiance by that time our shooting has taken care of them.
Dont get me wrong i like the husk blade but i think the agonizer is a better tac weapon over all.

**Corollax**

S3 wounds T6 just fine. It has to roll a 6, but that's not a big problem.

**SarisKhan**

Corollax wrote:
S3 wounds T6 just fine. It has to roll a 6, but that's not a big problem.

No, no, no! Remember that all MCs in the game are either T8 Wraithknight or 2+/5++ Riptide! Every single one of them, even those who aren't!

Also, WAVE SERPENTS!

**vipoid**

ShadarLogoth wrote:

I know Riptides have skewed everyones perspective on this, but the vast majority of MCs in the game don't have a 2+ save. Tyranids (with a couple exceptions), Demons, Talos/Cronons, WKs, WLs, Tomb Spydes, C'Tan.

I didn't say every MC did have a 2+ save - just the ones you'd want to ID in combat.

For about the 5th time, why would you want to get into combat with any of those? Our troops have basic weapons with 4+ poison. Venoms can put out 12 poison shots at 36". Why are we worrying about MCs with 3+ (or worse) saves?

**ShadarLogoth**

vipoid wrote:
ShadarLogoth wrote:

I know Riptides have skewed everyones perspective on this, but the vast majority of MCs in the game don't have a 2+ save. Tyranids (with a couple exceptions), Demons, Talos/Cronons, WKs, WLs, Tomb Spydes, C'Tan.

I didn't say every MC did have a 2+ save - just the ones you'd want to ID in combat.

For about the 5th time, why would you want to get into combat with any of those? Our troops have basic weapons with 4+ poison. Venoms can put out 12 poison shots at 36". Why are we worrying about MCs with 3+ (or worse) saves?

Because sometimes they bring more then you can muster with Poison? When you are facing 40+ MC wounds a handful of Venoms doesn't always cut it.

**vipoid**

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Because sometimes they bring more then you can muster with Poison? When you are facing 40+ MC wounds a handful of Venoms doesn't always cut it.

And you really believe an Archon with a Huskblade is going to redress the balance?

**SarisKhan**

vipoid wrote:
ShadarLogoth wrote:

Because sometimes they bring more then you can muster with Poison? When you are facing 40+ MC wounds a handful of Venoms doesn't always cut it.

And you really believe an Archon with a Huskblade is going to redress the balance?

Mass Poison and Huskblade might. Or are those exclusive?

**vipoid**

SarisKhan wrote:
Mass Poison and Huskblade might. Or are those exclusive?

Sorry, but if you have so many MCs that you can't poison them all to death, I just don't see a huskblade tipping the balance.

**Crimson**

Corollax wrote:
S3 wounds T6 just fine. It has to roll a 6, but that's not a big problem.

Yes, but Agoniser wounds three times as likely, so it would have dealt three wounds for every one ID wound from the Huskblade.

**HawaiiMatt**

H-Coven has the answer.
Put the haemonculus with the 10 point artifact in with the achron(s) with husk blade(s). Choose to give the whole unit poison 4+.

Now you have 4+ to wound AP3 instant death.