7th edition DE HQ, what do you take?

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**HawaiiMatt**

Exergy wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
HawaiiMatt wrote:
Stick the Haemi with the jet bikes turn 1.
Then you get the FNP on a T4 (or possibly T5 with drugs) unit.
5+/3++jink and 6+fnp, going to 5+ fnp turn2 and 4+fnp turn3.

When you need the speed, leave him behind.

I just don't see that use anymore. We have basically two HQ slots that should be re-titled to WWP carriers. I don't want to waste that potential on a babysitter.

yeah, again a 70 point babysitter to increase surviability of such a cheap unit by 1/6 on the first two turns. Not worth it.

It's a 252 point unit (more if you buy guns or the character and gear).
You must have an HQ, so you committed to spend at least 60 points. They are all a waste of points, the question is, what's the most effective use of those points that you must spend.
Having the Reavers arrive in better shape is worth it to me.

I'm now thinking Armor of Misery, webway portal. I want to be able to pin point strike that -2 Ld. I'll have enough options left open where I can join him where I need him.
I like the idea of keeping him off the table for a bit as well. He's fairly cheap, and the hardest warlord to kill is the one in reserve.

**vipoid**

What about having a Court of the Archon as your HQ choice?

As I read it, if you take an Archon, you can take a Court that doesn't use up a FoC slot.

However, as far as I can see, there's nothing stopping you just taking a Court as a standard HQ choice.

**Red Corsair**

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Exergy wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
HawaiiMatt wrote:
Stick the Haemi with the jet bikes turn 1.
Then you get the FNP on a T4 (or possibly T5 with drugs) unit.
5+/3++jink and 6+fnp, going to 5+ fnp turn2 and 4+fnp turn3.

When you need the speed, leave him behind.

I just don't see that use anymore. We have basically two HQ slots that should be re-titled to WWP carriers. I don't want to waste that potential on a babysitter.

yeah, again a 70 point babysitter to increase surviability of such a cheap unit by 1/6 on the first two turns. Not worth it.

It's a 252 point unit (more if you buy guns or the character and gear).
You must have an HQ, so you committed to spend at least 60 points. They are all a waste of points, the question is, what's the most effective use of those points that you must spend.
Having the Reavers arrive in better shape is worth it to me.

I'm now thinking Armor of Misery, webway portal. I want to be able to pin point strike that -2 Ld. I'll have enough options left open where I can join him where I need him.
I like the idea of keeping him off the table for a bit as well. He's fairly cheap, and the hardest warlord to kill is the one in reserve.

But why not just take Urien and get the same benefit for everything within 12" and he doesn't have to be with a unit of reavers slowing them down. It isn't like Urien sucks or anything. He is probably the best HQ option if you don't want two WWP's for the list.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

vipoid wrote:
What about having a Court of the Archon as your HQ choice?

As I read it, if you take an Archon, you can take a Court that doesn't use up a FoC slot.

However, as far as I can see, there's nothing stopping you just taking a Court as a standard HQ choice.

It literally says they don't take up any slots and require an Archon to get so I am not sure what your saying?

**vipoid**

Red Corsair wrote:

It literally says they don't take up any slots and require an Archon to get so I am not sure what your saying?

No, it says that if you take an archon you can include a Court that doesn't take up a FoC slot.

Nowhere does it say that this is they only way they can be taken.

Hence, unless it gets faqd otherwise, you can just include them without Archons - in which case they take up a HQ slot as normal.

**Exergy**

vipoid wrote:
What about having a Court of the Archon as your HQ choice?

As I read it, if you take an Archon, you can take a Court that doesn't use up a FoC slot.

However, as far as I can see, there's nothing stopping you just taking a Court as a standard HQ choice.

have heard about that, and it is very tempting.

**mercury14**

Taking a court as your only HQ seems like a rules exploit that's going to get FAQ's so I'm not doing it.

All DE HQs are playable IMO. The loss of AP2 for the Archon isn't the end of the world because I didn't have him in CC with termis and MCs anyway. Even with a shadowfield he got insta-squished too much against the game's heavy-hitters that had no problem serving him up packs of de-facto insta-death wounds.

Personally I like the Succubus with maybe one piece of wargear, just as I did last edition. Now she gets FNP and furious charge just for living a few turns so I like her better.

My DE tournament lists usually ran her with 4x Grots in a Raider with at least four other Venoms/Raiders of assault units. That way she's T5 and can be the scalpel to the Grots' hammer. Now that Grots are substantially buffed in this codex I expect my Succubus to be more successful than ever.

**Trystis**

vipoid wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:

It literally says they don't take up any slots and require an Archon to get so I am not sure what your saying?

No, it says that if you take an archon you can include a Court that doesn't take up a FoC slot.

Nowhere does it say that this is they only way they can be taken.

Hence, unless it gets faqd otherwise, you can just include them without Archons - in which case they take up a HQ slot as normal.

It actually says: “For each Archon included in a Detachment, the Detachment can include a Court of the Archon” , if you don't have archon you can't take a court.

**Jpr**

You miSsed off that it doesn't take a foc slot. What stops you taking one that does use a foc slot (no archon present).

**vipoid**

Trystis wrote:

It actually says: “For each Archon included in a Detachment, the Detachment can include a Court of the Archon” , if you don't have archon you can't take a court of the archon that doesn't take up a FoC slot.

You missed the important part of the quote.

**wuestenfux**

vipoid wrote:
Trystis wrote:

It actually says: “For each Archon included in a Detachment, the Detachment can include a Court of the Archon” , if you don't have archon you can't take a court of the archon that doesn't take up a FoC slot.

You missed the important part of the quote.

Indeed, no Court without an Archon.
However, on the plus side, the Court need not accompany the Archon.

**vipoid**

wuestenfux wrote:

Indeed, no Court without an Archon.

No court that doesn't take up a FoC slot without an Archon.

**HawaiiMatt**

Succubus, Archite glaive, Armor of Misery.
Not a kill everything HQ, but we're DE, we should be dictating the fights. 5 S4 AP2 attacks is pretty good. Leading a small unit of 4 Incubi, they bring ~15 more S4 AP2 attacks.
Causing fear and forcing all Ld tests at -2 is a nice buff.

-Matt

**Red Corsair**

vipoid wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:

Indeed, no Court without an Archon.

No court that doesn't take up a FoC slot without an Archon.

OK we can all at least agree that it is a hot button issue. So either take it and see how your opponent reacts or open a YMDC thread. Personally, I think that is an obvious language loophole that GW often screws up on, so I would never run it that way.

YMMV

**vipoid**

Red Corsair wrote:

OK we can all at least agree that it is a hot button issue. So either take it and see how your opponent reacts or open a YMDC thread. Personally, I think that is an obvious language loophole that GW often screws up on, so I would never run it that way.

It's possible. But, if it is a mistake, it seems strange that they would change the wording - since the previous book left no ambiguity (and, it was also made clear that the Court was a special choice, like a Royal Court, not just another HQ choice).

**HawaiiMatt**

Does the court wording really matter?
You still need a legal warlord, and the court doesn't qualify.
I guess if you wanted a succubus and a court, you could do it without the archon. But a cheap archon for WWP seems like a good choice anyway.

**Red Corsair**

vipoid wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:

OK we can all at least agree that it is a hot button issue. So either take it and see how your opponent reacts or open a YMDC thread. Personally, I think that is an obvious language loophole that GW often screws up on, so I would never run it that way.

It's possible. But, if it is a mistake, it seems strange that they would change the wording - since the previous book left no ambiguity (and, it was also made clear that the Court was a special choice, like a Royal Court, not just another HQ choice).

Why would it be strange? They needlessly changed the format as well if you hadn't noticed. Now it's twice as much work purchasing gear for your models as you need to often look in two locations, let alone the third for actually finding the rules for said gear.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Does the court wording really matter?
You still need a legal warlord, and the court doesn't qualify.
I guess if you wanted a succubus and a court, you could do it without the archon. But a cheap archon for WWP seems like a good choice anyway.

Any character can be a warlord though, it doesn't need to be a HQ.

**vipoid**

Red Corsair wrote:
Why would it be strange? They needlessly changed the format as well if you hadn't noticed. Now it's twice as much work purchasing gear for your models as you need to often look in two locations, let alone the third for actually finding the rules for said gear.

Ugh, don't remind me. It's like the designer had his head stuck in a filing cabinet.

**TheRavager87**

Exergy wrote:
I read into the WWP, can deep strike without a transport. Seems all three non special characters can take a WWP, of which the archon is the cheapest.

I am thinking about doing that, might be fun for a while with some allied scythe guard or medusa

I am a huge fan of an Archon with WWP with a Court consisting of 4 to 5 Medusae in a Raider. I would give the Archon a blaster, but to each his own there. When you deep strike in, choose a unit you want off the board and it can pretty much do that.

**CrosisDePurger**

I want to put Lilith with 4 Incubi in a venom, lots of points in one basket but I think they could melee stomp most infantry units hard.

**Ravenous D**

nevermind

**Red Corsair**

For specials:

Urien is the force multiplier and all around my top pick.

Next I would say is lelith as she is relatively cheap and is a monster in assault.

Last up is poor Drazar, had he been on par with the rest of the CWE phoenix lords I'd say he was ok, but having to put him in Incubi kills him for me. He is still very solid, but the more I realized he was with incubi the more I realized they don't need him. Heck you can get a second unit with transport for his price alone.

**Exergy**

Red Corsair wrote:

Last up is poor Drazar, had he been on par with the rest of the CWE phoenix lords I'd say he was ok, but having to put him in Incubi kills him for me. He is still very solid, but the more I realized he was with incubi the more I realized they don't need him. Heck you can get a second unit with transport for his price alone.

and he doesnt really bring anything. 4 str5 ap2 attacks. Sounds solid, but most of the phoneix lords bring similar or better. he doesnt have any nice USR that transfer except his incubi become +1 WS, which they really needed.... I suppose hitting Khorne Bezerkers on 3+ is something

**HawaiiMatt**

Exergy wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:

Last up is poor Drazar, had he been on par with the rest of the CWE phoenix lords I'd say he was ok, but having to put him in Incubi kills him for me. He is still very solid, but the more I realized he was with incubi the more I realized they don't need him. Heck you can get a second unit with transport for his price alone.

and he doesnt really bring anything. 4 str5 ap2 attacks. Sounds solid, but most of the phoneix lords bring similar or better. he doesnt have any nice USR that transfer except his incubi become +1 WS, which they really needed.... I suppose hitting Khorne Bezerkers on 3+ is something

Drazhar has rampage, and murderous assault. It's 6 to 9 attacks on the charge, with another attack when he rolls a 6 to wound. Eternal warrior is great considering he doesn't have an invul.
+1 WS is to make the Klaivex hit every chapter master on a 3+.

-Matt

**SarisKhan**

Also, Drazhar has Fearless USR which obviously transfers to his Incubi retinue.

**Skullhammer**

I'm thinking a arcon with, shadow,agonizer, soul trap, wwp and helm of spite comes in at 195.
And a subbi with armour of misery, gleave, and a wwp.
both are for dropping into the enemy deployment zone. The arcon to go near centurions who (in my area) are always used with tiggy at the least and the subbi to go hunting counter assault units or fire base units. As to what they will go with is tricky i'm thinking just warriors x20 plenty of bodies good fire power and fnp either 6 or 5.

**Frozocrone**

I think an Archon depends on what you want him to do in your army - I think the best generic use would be to have him with a Shadow Field and Webway Portal and attach him to a unit of Grotesques with one or two Liquifiers or Wraithguard if you're taking Craftworld Allies - I say either these units as you can have him out front and tank wounds whilst have a higher toughness whilst spraying Templates in the backfield.

**Red Corsair**

SarisKhan wrote:
Also, Drazhar has Fearless USR which obviously transfers to his Incubi retinue.

What kills him for me is he adds nothign to a list that is really tactical. For 190 he should be able to join any unit and provide a fearless AP2 beat stick. Nope he MUST be in a unit that doesn't need him.

For example I'll spend 195 for Barahoth to add to my grots or clawed fiends EVERY time over him. Heck any of the phoenix lords flat out beat him IMO. That's what annoys me most with him.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skullhammer wrote:
I'm thinking a arcon with, shadow,agonizer, soul trap, wwp and helm of spite comes in at 195.
And a subbi with armour of misery, gleave, and a wwp.
both are for dropping into the enemy deployment zone. The arcon to go near centurions who (in my area) are always used with tiggy at the least and the subbi to go hunting counter assault units or fire base units. As to what they will go with is tricky i'm thinking just warriors x20 plenty of bodies good fire power and fnp either 6 or 5.

Why take a soul trap with an agonizer though?

I'll field an archon with a husk blade and soul trap. Either they take my challenge and I can kill smaller utility characters like Tigerius for example (I see him often) or they refuse and I keep his force staff away from my grots. Either way the soul trap has an impact on your opponent, even if it is forcing a Sergent to hide and making the unit lose that LD.

**Skullhammer**

The soul trap works with agonizers as there now posion +2s and your rerolling wounds on a t4 enemy and thats usefull plus i think its better as a tac if you go against wraith knights and tougher stuff.

**Vombat**

Imo the Archon is the winner of the HQs.

This is thanks to the cort of the archon. I think this rule bending is a bit over the top. Its quite clear what they try to say RAI.

The archon itself isn't that fat, but with a huskblade/agoniser, shadow field, soultrap and a relic helm or armour he is ok.
Most important, this allow you to take a unit of awesome Sslyths. A raider (with the twinlink carbine upgrade) and 9 slyths clock in at around 300p.
The Sslyths needs a character with their poor leadership but you can also include a Lhamia (spelling?) with Ld 9. She isnt a character so cant he challanged.

They shoot like mad, hit like a truck and can take a hit. Just compare them to the Grotesques.

If you dont like the Sslyths, You should consider a raider full of Lhamians (spelling?) 3 attacks each on the charge with 2+ poison. The is equivalent to str 6 wyches assaulting marines for the same points.
The whole unit costs 160p or so and is a real killer. MC, nurgle, bikers. They kick ass. And don't forget the instant death on 6s. So they are better then wyches against everything, even grots!
The only exeption is units hiding in cover. Something with initiative 5/6 and dreads. Wyches lost their Heywire grenades anyway.

So while the archon isnt that great by himself, he unlocks a really nice unit. He is a decent warlord, hiding naked at a rear objective, zooming around with a blaster, or tanking with a shadowfield.
Btw, dont forget the shadowfield buff. The shadow field work the whole phase in wich it's shut down. so you don't have to roll the dice seperatly. Even if he fail, he still have the save. Well worth the 10p increase.

**vipoid**

Vombat wrote:
This is thanks to the cort of the archon. I think this rule bending is a bit over the top. Its quite clear what they try to say RAI.

I really don't see why it's rule bending.

The only reason people are reading it as 'must take an archon to take a court' is because that's how it was in the last book.