7th edition DE HQ, what do you take?

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**morgoth**

Shingen wrote:
Naked archon, cheap hq best hq.

This.
As an Eldar, I've always been pissed I had to spend 70 points minimum.

As a DE, you can even get a Venom from that, making the HQ tax more of a joke.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

I like the idea of keeping him off the table for a bit as well. He's fairly cheap, and the hardest warlord to kill is the one in reserve.

But then you lose the warlord traits for those turns - when it does matter though, not every game.

**vipoid**

Shingen wrote:
Naked archon, cheap hq best hq.

If you're having a naked HQ, would it be worth paying 10pts to upgrade to a Haemonculus - who at least buffs his squad?

(Unless you you're being literal, in which case I'd definitely recommend the succubus.

)

**Senstara Nightwhisper**

Tbh Archon is still in top form, I mainly use him with a group of 4 Incubi in a Venom, I used him yesterday just to charge into the enemies Exocrine meaning it only shot that massive Plasma gun once in the entire games.

And my opponent was just throwing guants at him and his Incubi to try and free up her heavy gun (they were hardly going to kill it

but no shooting is good shooting), resulting in an opening in her lines for me to then deep strike in my two raiders full of wyches and start cutting up the Tervigon's, Zonethropes and everything else I did not like the look of while my remaining three warriors (poor guys, only had 10) and Two venoms just poured shots into the horde now left without fire support.

While he did die after 3 turns of Combat, that's three turns that the Nids were still on their side of the board throwing units into a big bulk for my Wyches to eat up.

I was running a delaying tactic of waiting till turn 4 for 5+ FnP and Furious charge for the Wyches, So the entire setup was to stall the nids and put them into a position where they had very little shooting left availible to handle the sudden arrival of 20 Wyches, high as a kite in Serpantine.

... Though the Succubus is looking gorgeous as well as a HQ, waiting for new model to use her though... Can't wait, also got Lilly on order... She may not be great, but I just want to have some fun trying to Webway Portal her into some poor sods gunline.

**wuestenfux**

Well, a big problem for DE are Dreads in cc, since they fight with their front armor.
Haywire grenades or shooting them is the only way to deal with them.
Even an HQ with haywires could be locked against them for a while.

**Exergy**

wuestenfux wrote:
Well, a big problem for DE are Dreads in cc, since they fight with their front armor.
Haywire grenades or shooting them is the only way to deal with them.
Even an HQ with haywires could be locked against them for a while.

remember when agonizers were AP2, glanced any armor on a 6, and were cheaper....

**locarno24**

I think Lelith is one of the best - she was nasty before and has got a damn sight more deadly.

The Court of the Archon is much like the Mek in the Ork book (which has had several YMDC threads on this subject).

**vipoid**

locarno24 wrote:
I think Lelith is one of the best - she was nasty before and has got a damn sight more deadly.

Could you explain how?

**morgoth**

wuestenfux wrote:
Well, a big problem for DE are Dreads in cc, since they fight with their front armor.

That is my biggest problem with v7.

If you're surrounding a Walker, it should be taking damage on the armor that the attacker is facing, not just front armor all the time as if it were spinning fast enough to land everything on front armor.

I think it helps make the IK a lot tougher than they should be as well.

**HawaiiMatt**

wuestenfux wrote:
Well, a big problem for DE are Dreads in cc, since they fight with their front armor.
Haywire grenades or shooting them is the only way to deal with them.
Even an HQ with haywires could be locked against them for a while.

IK might be a bit of a problem but even a single haywire will kill a dread eventually when it is in a unit with a 4+ invul.
The bigger problem with dreads is that they show up with heavy flamers.
DE have plenty of shooting options to down walkers, and even a few combat options (multiple D6 S6 rending HoW hits), Talos and Cronos with feel no pain have a decent shot as well.

IK are really good, but we've got the mobility to get around that shield, and at the end of the day, it is AV12 with 6 hull points. I can glance that to death.
Hell, 2 units of scourge (120 point each) with haywire blasters will drop one in a single turn as long as you come in out of arc of that shield.

**Red Corsair**

HawaiiMatt wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:
Well, a big problem for DE are Dreads in cc, since they fight with their front armor.
Haywire grenades or shooting them is the only way to deal with them.
Even an HQ with haywires could be locked against them for a while.

IK might be a bit of a problem but even a single haywire will kill a dread eventually when it is in a unit with a 4+ invul.
The bigger problem with dreads is that they show up with heavy flamers.
DE have plenty of shooting options to down walkers, and even a few combat options (multiple D6 S6 rending HoW hits), Talos and Cronos with feel no pain have a decent shot as well.

IK are really good, but we've got the mobility to get around that shield, and at the end of the day, it is AV12 with 6 hull points. I can glance that to death.
Hell, 2 units of scourge (120 point each) with haywire blasters will drop one in a single turn as long as you come in out of arc of that shield.

It's not like dreads are good or popular now anyway.

**ShadarLogoth**

It's not like dreads are good or popular now anyway.

This.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

vipoid wrote:
locarno24 wrote:
I think Lelith is one of the best - she was nasty before and has got a damn sight more deadly.

Could you explain how?

Yeah, I keep going back and forth on her myself. I actually loved the old Lili, although she was a tad to expensive.

This one...is cheaper...but I'm not sure what I think about her new rules yet. I don't think she's awful...but I'm pretty undecided. Although I think the new PfP mechanic is better for most of the army, Lili was one unit that I think really benefited from the old one. It wasn't hard to bounce her off a couple of Wrack units and have here enter CC with both FNP and FC. Now the only way you are going to do that is just delay with her.

Rampage is okay, and she's reasonably beasty in challenges....just. Not sure yet.

Oh, and I would never make her my Warlord.

**morgoth**

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Yeah, I keep going back and forth on her myself.

**Ravenous D**

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Yeah, I keep going back and forth on her myself. I actually loved the old Lili, although she was a tad to expensive.

This one...is cheaper...but I'm not sure what I think about her new rules yet. I don't think she's awful...but I'm pretty undecided. Although I think the new PfP mechanic is better for most of the army, Lili was one unit that I think really benefited from the old one. It wasn't hard to bounce her off a couple of Wrack units and have here enter CC with both FNP and FC. Now the only way you are going to do that is just delay with her.

Rampage is okay, and she's reasonably beasty in challenges....just. Not sure yet.

Oh, and I would never make her my Warlord.

I was rolling it out and she isn't that great, you'd never take a challenge from here unless you were T5 and multi wound/3++ so that leaves bog standard fighting. Against marines and her maximum number of attacks of 10, she kills 2 marines on average. With furious charge she kills 3. The second she runs into anything with a decent invul or toughness her usefulness drops dramatically. You're better off taking a cheap blaster archon with haywire grenades in a venom for roughly the same cost. Do more damage at range against a larger variety of enemies.

**Exergy**

Ravenous D wrote:
ShadarLogoth wrote:

Yeah, I keep going back and forth on her myself. I actually loved the old Lili, although she was a tad to expensive.

This one...is cheaper...but I'm not sure what I think about her new rules yet. I don't think she's awful...but I'm pretty undecided. Although I think the new PfP mechanic is better for most of the army, Lili was one unit that I think really benefited from the old one. It wasn't hard to bounce her off a couple of Wrack units and have here enter CC with both FNP and FC. Now the only way you are going to do that is just delay with her.

Rampage is okay, and she's reasonably beasty in challenges....just. Not sure yet.

Oh, and I would never make her my Warlord.

I was rolling it out and she isn't that great, you'd never take a challenge from here unless you were T5 and multi wound/3++ so that leaves bog standard fighting. Against marines and her maximum number of attacks of 10, she kills 2 marines on average. With furious charge she kills 3. The second she runs into anything with a decent invul or toughness her usefulness drops dramatically. You're better off taking a cheap blaster archon with haywire grenades in a venom for roughly the same cost. Do more damage at range against a larger variety of enemies.

yeah the succubus also has high WS and Init, also is AP2, also has a ++ in CC
She is much cheaper, is str4, has combat drugs.

**Mythantor**

Is there any reason at all too take any other weapon than the Glaive on a Succubus?

Cause i really cant find one.

**vipoid**

Mythantor wrote:
Is there any reason at all too take any other weapon than the Glaive on a Succubus?

Sadly, no.

The Glaive is the only weapon that's even remotely good.

**ShadarLogoth**

vipoid wrote:
Mythantor wrote:
Is there any reason at all too take any other weapon than the Glaive on a Succubus?

Sadly, no.

The Glaive is the only weapon that's even remotely good.

Meh.

I think the Agonizer is still pretty good. It depends if you want the flexibility to hunt 3+ MCs (WKs) or 2+ units. The Agonizer is also straight up better against MEq, which are pretty prolific in this game. The notion that for a weapon to be "remotely good" it has to be AP 2 is kind of silly, IMHO.

**vipoid**

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Meh.

I think the Agonizer is still pretty good. It depends if you want the flexibility to hunt 3+ MCs (WKs) or 2+ units. The Agonizer is also straight up better against MEq, which are pretty prolific in this game. The notion that for a weapon to be "remotely good" it has to be AP 2 is kind of silly, IMHO.

But, why would you want a weapon to go after MCs? We're an army where even the basic troops have poisoned shooting weapons!

I can understand you wanting a weapon to kill MCs with a 2+ save... but that Agoniser completely fails in that role.

The agoniser is slightly better against MEQ... but why would you need it? MEQ are not difficult to kill with basic shooting, and we can put out a lot of shots pretty efficiently.

With regard to the AP2 aspect, I think that melee is inherently worse than shooting. It's much riskier and, even if you win, can easily leave your unit stranded and about to be shot to bits by the enemy. Hence, if I'm going to attempt melee at all, I'd better have a weapon that makes it worthwhile. For example, is my melee unit going to do more damage than a Ravager with 3 disintegrators, or a warrior squad in a Raider with Splinter Racks? If not, then why am I bothering? What's the point?

Now, for some armies, AP2 might be an acceptable trade for a 4+ poisoned weapon... but we're Dark Eldar. About 90% of our shooting arsenal is poisoned weapons, and this melee weapon doesn' even give us 3+ poison. And, naturally, it costs as much as a Power Fist. That's a pretty hard pill to swallow.

**ShadarLogoth**

I guess. /shrug

You could also say any army filled with Dark Lances, Disintegrators, Ossefactors, Void Bombs, etc doesn't need any help with AP 2. I suppose it largely depends on where you think you are lacking. I don't think it's nearly as clearly cut as you are making it, though.

**vipoid**

ShadarLogoth wrote:
You could also say any army filled with Dark Lances, Disintegrators, Ossefactors, Void Bombs, etc doesn't need any help with AP 2.

Entirely possible. but then I'd say it needs even less help from poison or AP3.

Don't get me wrong though - I think the glaive is just the best of a bad bunch, and it certainly wouldn't make me want to use melee in a DE army.

Again, the point I'm trying to get across is that melee is objectively worse than shooting - especially for a fragile race like ours. There's just no getting around this. So, if we're going to include dedicated assault units at all, then they need to do their job considerably better than any comparable shooting.

**Corollax**

And if you really insist on bringing power weapons to close combat, what do the Succubus or Archon bring that an Incubi squad can't accomplish for much less?

All I can think of is their webway portal.

**SarisKhan**

Personally, I'm eager to experiment with the Helm of Spite on my Archon. Gonna put him in a dedicated Venom and make the heads of all those pesky Daemon and Tyranid Psykers explode...

**vipoid**

Out of interest, what do people think of the Armour of Misery?

I ask because I'm struggling to see the point.

-2Ld seems like it would be more appealing if melee didn't reward you for not wiping out your opponent in a single round.

As it is, it seems like you're virtually guaranteeing that a non-fearless opponent will flee, leaving your melee unit out in the opon for your opponent to shoot in his turn.

**SarisKhan**

vipoid wrote:
Out of interest, what do people think of the Armour of Misery?

I ask because I'm struggling to see the point.

-2Ld seems like it would be more appealing if melee didn't reward you for not wiping out your opponent in a single round.

As it is, it seems like you're virtually guaranteeing that a non-fearless opponent will flee, leaving your melee unit out in the opon for your opponent to shoot in his turn.

I think one might take it to grant the Succubus 4+/6++ saves out of CC.

**Skullhammer**

And to put in a raider so that your shooting makes things run away better, add a wwp and ds into the back field and force there fire support elements to run off the table.

**Frozocrone**

What is everyone's opinion on Wracks? You can take a unit of 5 with two Liquifiers (taking an Acothyst with the other Liquifier) for 90 points - combined with a Archon with a Webway Portal you've got a No-Scatter Template. Ideal for small games?

**vipoid**

Frozocrone wrote:
What is everyone's opinion on Wracks? You can take a unit of 5 with two Liquifiers (taking an Acothyst with the other Liquifier) for 90 points - combined with a Archon with a Webway Portal you've got a No-Scatter Template. Ideal for small games?

That would be more appealing if Liquifiers weren't S3.

Seems like you'd be better off with Medusae. They can't get AP2, but have guaranteed AP3 and S4. Also, you can take up to 12 of them - so you can throw out far more templates than the Wracks and have no surplus bodies.

**Corollax**

If you're going to spend that much for an Archon with a WWP, you should at least have him escort something with decent weaponry -- like a squad of Medusae or Wraithguards.

The cost of the WWP Archon is too high to spend on such a weak unit.

Edit: Ninja'd! What Vipoid said, basically.

**Cambonimachine**

vipoid wrote:
Out of interest, what do people think of the Armour of Misery?

I ask because I'm struggling to see the point.

-2Ld seems like it would be more appealing if melee didn't reward you for not wiping out your opponent in a single round.

As it is, it seems like you're virtually guaranteeing that a non-fearless opponent will flee, leaving your melee unit out in the opon for your opponent to shoot in his turn.

Combos with the grenade launchers and also for the fear thing... thats about all I can think of

What is everyone's opinion on Wracks? You can take a unit of 5 with two Liquifiers (taking an Acothyst with the other Liquifier) for 90 points - combined with a Archon with a Webway Portal you've got a No-Scatter Template. Ideal for small games?

Im really liking the ossifactor tbh, Liquifiers can be sweet but I am definitely gonna run a few games with the ossi to see how it performs cause on paper it looks excellent

**HawaiiMatt**

-2 LD for tank shocking too.

-Matt