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Cambonimachine wrote:
well the idea was to DS the venoms behind LOS terrain if available so they could be marginally safer for a turn, then pop out next turn for the assault. Also the DSing was so that i could keep them safe and off the table for a couple turns so PfP could buff them a little bit... Was also looking into Haemys instead of succubi for the extra PfP bonus. Since they are so small every death is gonna hurt so I was thinking the buffs might mitigate unecessary deaths and/or worries bout them getting blowed up before they get there?

No need to deep strike a Venom behind terrain. You could deploy it from the start.
A deep striking unit should be a shock and awe squad that disrupts enemy plans.

Just worried about possibly having to walk the incubi across the table is all. Though i am now toying around with a list where a haemy w/hex rifle&animus WWPs in a raider w/ a court of x5 sslyth and x4 medusae while my archon WWPs in with a unit of mandrakes... i dunno though that a TON of points and i dont get anywhere near the table time i need to actually test this stuff out so its all theoryhammer

the cc vs shooting argument is fun.

but i DO think an entirely melee based DE army is super doable now.

archon with 10 ish grots in a portal
archon with 10 ish grots in a portal

raider full of sslyths, splinter racks and 12 lhamean. nasty shooting, then jump out if needed.

baharroth with 12 ish clawed fiends. beasts... going ape.

VERy little can kill the grots when they arrive. maybe one or two. kit the archon to beat up non armour 2 stuff and run with it. grots soak fire, then attack.

sslyths can cruise around potshotting. get in position early with the aethersails. when you get shot down, hop out.

turn 2 ish the fiends are in range... also still alive. you end up with like 30 T5 models with 2-3 wounds each going ape.

that sounds like so much fun.

I think the best HQ right now in the book is actually in the Coven book.

It's a Haemy, Talos, and Chronos all one unit. The Haemy can absolutely take WWP , plus all the other goodies.

 vipoid wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:


You know that's not a "demonstration," correct? All you have done is presented a one sided argument in Shooting's favor.

I have explained why the core rules favour shooting, I'm not sure what else you expect me to do.

Use math.

Hollismason wrote:
I think the best HQ right now in the book is actually in the Coven book.

It's a Haemy, Talos, and Chronos all one unit. The Haemy can absolutely take WWP , plus all the other goodies.

The haemi+Urien in the coven book do get fearless for the whole game, something DE generally only had in Drazhar, but now cannot add to non incubi.

Saldiven wrote:
Use math.

Ok... what am I using math for?

I can do some mathhammering if you like, but I need to know the parameters.

I think by now its safe to say the assault vs shooting is pretty off topic now. Take it to a new thread if you really want to hash it out, I am sure there's some non DE interested folks that would love to weigh in one way or other.

Back on topic, the idea of a haemonculous with WWP and a big block of warriors is interesting me at the moment. An HQ that is more then just a tax, that will have FnP the turn they arrive, with pin point accuracy and prefferably ObSec also.

Otherwise Urien in a raider for turn 1 FnP for a bunch of reavers.

Hollismason wrote:
I think the best HQ right now in the book is actually in the Coven book.

It's a Haemy, Talos, and Chronos all one unit. The Haemy can absolutely take WWP , plus all the other goodies.

That is not an HQ choice, that's a formation. You'd still need an HQ if taking the Coven detachment, DE realspace detachment, CAD, etc.

 Exergy wrote:
The haemi+Urien in the coven book do get fearless for the whole game, something DE generally only had in Drazhar, but now cannot add to non incubi.

Drazhar could only join incubi in the old dex also IIRC. Wasn't Vect fearless though? Any event, it is interesting using Coven HQs to grab some different USRs. Zealot confers also.

 winterman wrote:

Back on topic, the idea of a haemonculous with WWP and a big block of warriors is interesting me at the moment. An HQ that is more then just a tax, that will have FnP the turn they arrive, with pin point accuracy and prefferably ObSec also.

What would you do with said block of warriors?

Depends on situation. More then likely focus on objectives or weak areas in the opponents placement. I used to run 16 dakka-gaunts in a spore in the old bug dex and it always came in handy. Usually just to disrupt the opponents plans and grab/contest an objective he thought he had no problem holding.

 vipoid wrote:

 winterman wrote:

Back on topic, the idea of a haemonculous with WWP and a big block of warriors is interesting me at the moment. An HQ that is more then just a tax, that will have FnP the turn they arrive, with pin point accuracy and prefferably ObSec also.

What would you do with said block of warriors?

I agree. It's a nice idea, but I feel warriors are better off in Raiders. They'll do less damage per turn, but will stick around longer and are far more manoeuvrable (which also helps with the first point).

For me, the best uses of a WWP I can think of so far are:

1) Ally Wraithguard with D-scythes (circumnavigates the WG's usual problem of slow movement and short range)

2) Two Archons, one with WWP and Archangel/Armour of Misery and the second with whatever artefact didn't take. Attach an allied Farseer/Spiritseer on Telepathy and a unit of your choosing and just nuke the opponent using a combination of the -Ld shenanigans and the Archangel plus Psychic Shriek and Terrify (if you roll it). Added lols if you roll Invisibilty

3) Take main detachment Eldar. Farseer/Eldrad on Fate (for Fortune) and Spiritseer on Battle (for Shrouded). An Eldar unit of your choosing (Harlequins, FDs, WG are probably the best bets) deep strikes in, in/behind cover, sticks around with the buffs and causes damage. The WWP carrier is simply there for the DS, and to provide extra CC/Shooting punch, but could also take the Helm of Spite to make the unit really resistant to psychic powers (and remember, it's also easy to DS within 12" of a Psyker with a WWP)

On another note, I also really like the idea of allying in an Autarch. The +/-1 to Reserve Rolls will come in REALLY handy, because with some units you want to get them in asap but with others you want them to stick around off the board where they're safe until they can come in on a turn in which they're buffed sufficiently from PfP. There's also the chance you'll roll the Warlord Trait that allows you to re-roll Reserve Rolls as well and, if it's important, you can always add in an Aegis with a Comms for the guaranteed re-roll (comms is a re-roll, right?). There's plenty of Eldar units that can make good use of an Aegis or, alternatively, you can stick a cheap unit of Mandrakes behind it, on an objective, for a fantastic cover save.

The Autarch himself can then be his usual versatile self: providing added combat punch with Firesabre, shooting punch with a Fusion Gun (or other), manoeuvrability with Wings/Jump Pack or you can stick with the always-useful Jetbike and Shard build.

Archon for his court alone is my pick of the litter with succubus as secondary. The court makes it for me cause medusae. They will absolutly roftstomp infantry and weak biker.

What y'all think of this?

WWP + Ham + Animus Vitae, with:
5 Dragons + Heavy Flamer Exarch

WWP + Ham + Armor of Misery, with:
5 Wraithguard

Allied Farseer + Shard of Anaris (permanent start with Fearless), with: 4 Grotesques, in a Raider

1000 pts of other stuff...

I wouldn't take the animus with the WWP.
I'd want a sure shot turn 2, which you can do if you start on the table. If the Animus Vitae doesn't come in until turn 3 or turn 4, you really miss out on any advantage from it.
If you are going to WWP it, make sure you're bringing reserve manipulation.

Makes sense. Animus won't help much if it -arrives- turn 4. Ok, ok, what about WWP + 20 Guardians? A potential 48 pseudo-rending shots right in someome's face oughta ruin some infantry.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I wouldn't take the animus with the WWP.
I'd want a sure shot turn 2, which you can do if you start on the table. If the Animus Vitae doesn't come in until turn 3 or turn 4, you really miss out on any advantage from it.
If you are going to WWP it, make sure you're bringing reserve manipulation.

Those are fair points, but I would counter that you really don't want to have to deal with cover saves if you can at all get away with it, and the WWP gives you the best shot at avoiding cover.

 ionusx wrote:
Archon for his court alone is my pick of the litter with succubus as secondary. The court makes it for me cause medusae. They will absolutly roftstomp infantry and weak biker.

I'm not so sure about that. You can pay 25pts for a T3 5+ AP3 template, or ally in some Wraithguard and pay 42pts for a T6 3+ AP2 template

I think if you're going with the court, you need a decent amount of Sslyths for majority toughness 5, and then a few lhamians for some cheap, decent combat models. However, I still don't think such a unit is that good. It shreds light infantry very effectively, but that's what a lot of the rest of the codex, even the basic troops like Kabalites, can do easily.

Just got my Archon today to lead my force, I think I'm going to use Soul Trap, Agoniser and Shadowfield - costs 135 and should be a monster against anything that doesn't have 2+ armour

 Frozocrone wrote:
Just got my Archon today to lead my force, I think I'm going to use Soul Trap, Agoniser and Shadowfield - costs 135 and should be a monster against anything that doesn't have 2+ armour

Nice, I'm thinking of giving him the Huskblade for when one of his attacks sneaks through that 2+ armor and instagibs!

 Frozocrone wrote:
Just got my Archon today to lead my force, I think I'm going to use Soul Trap, Agoniser and Shadowfield - costs 135 and should be a monster against anything that doesn't have 2+ armour

If you are taking the Soul Trap, a Huskblade might be a better option. You really wont see much gain from the Soul Trap otherwise as the Agonizer is always wounding on a 4+.

 The Shadow wrote:

 ionusx wrote:
Archon for his court alone is my pick of the litter with succubus as secondary. The court makes it for me cause medusae. They will absolutly roftstomp infantry and weak biker.

I'm not so sure about that. You can pay 25pts for a T3 5+ AP3 template, or ally in some Wraithguard and pay 42pts for a T6 3+ AP2 template

I think if you're going with the court, you need a decent amount of Sslyths for majority toughness 5, and then a few lhamians for some cheap, decent combat models. However, I still don't think such a unit is that good. It shreds light infantry very effectively, but that's what a lot of the rest of the codex, even the basic troops like Kabalites, can do easily.

Actually for me the Sslyth and Lhamaean are both pretty nasty against light infantry. The Sslyth for durability and strong attacks, the Lhamaean because they hit first, usually hit on 4s, wound on 2s. They just can't take a hit back, but are cheap as chips.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Just got my Archon today to lead my force, I think I'm going to use Soul Trap, Agoniser and Shadowfield - costs 135 and should be a monster against anything that doesn't have 2+ armour

If you are taking the Soul Trap, a Huskblade might be a better option. You really wont see much gain from the Soul Trap otherwise as the Agonizer is always wounding on a 4+.

Would you not use your Strength (after increasing it a few times), re-rolling if you fail to wound due to Poisoned Rules? Or am I missing something here?

 Frozocrone wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Just got my Archon today to lead my force, I think I'm going to use Soul Trap, Agoniser and Shadowfield - costs 135 and should be a monster against anything that doesn't have 2+ armour

If you are taking the Soul Trap, a Huskblade might be a better option. You really wont see much gain from the Soul Trap otherwise as the Agonizer is always wounding on a 4+.

Would you not use your Strength (after increasing it a few times), re-rolling if you fail to wound due to Poisoned Rules? Or am I missing something here?

Exactly. 4+ to wound at worst, 3+ or 2+ with a re-roll once the trap has kicked in once or twice.
Agonizer isn't always wounding on a 4+, it's poison 4+. Which is a hell of a lot better.

Wait, how does it work on a 3+ or 2+? If the wielder gets stronger, it just means you get to re-roll, but it's always on a 4+ regardless.

"It always wounds on a fixed number, unless a lower result would be required"

In addition, if the strength of the wielder is higher than the toughness of the victim, the wielder must re-roll failed rolls To Wound in close combat.

Since the strength of the agonizer is "as user", you do indeed use the better number, AND gain re-rolls.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
"It always wounds on a fixed number, unless a lower result would be required"

In addition, if the strength of the wielder is higher than the toughness of the victim, the wielder must re-roll failed rolls To Wound in close combat.

Since the strength of the agonizer is "as user", you do indeed use the better number, AND gain re-rolls.

So does that mean that S5 Grotesques with Poison 4+ weapons against most Space Marines actually wound on a re-rollable 3+?

Yes, it means exactly that. But against Ogryn, they're stuck wounding on 4+ (no rerolls).

Oh nice, I hadn't seen the part about being able to modify the "to wound". Nice catch!

Corollax wrote:
Yes, it means exactly that. But against Ogryn, they're stuck wounding on 4+ (no rerolls).

Of course, on the round they furious charge, they go to S6, and wound ogryns on 3+ with a re-roll.
These guys are really brutal to multi-wound T4 models.
Wound on a 3+ with a re-roll, and inflicts instant death on a 6.
A unit of 5 on a non-furious charge does 2.77 instant death wounds, and 8.33 normal wounds. As if you needed another reason to avoid fielding tyranid warriors...

Oh my I have been playing the poison rule all wrong. Good to know.