if we are to assume that thunder warrios 1 on 1 were more powerful then astartes and custodes

ho would they do against a primarch

badly

A Primarch is much more powerful. It would be a very one sided fight.

Primarchs can survive hits from titan weaponry. So... The thunder warrior is dead.

The Primarch would oneshot the Thunder Warrior with ease.

so whats the heirachy then in terms of power

1. emperor

2. primarchs

3. thunder warriors

4. custodes

5. astartes

6. everyone else

LightKing wrote:
so whats the heirachy then in terms of power

1. emperor

2. primarchs

3. thunder warriors

4. custodes

5. astartes

6. everyone else

1. Emperor
2. Primarchs/Custodes, depending on individuals and circumstances
3. Astartes/Custodes, depending on individuals and circumstances
4. Thunder Warriors
5. Everyone else

 Psienesis wrote:

LightKing wrote:
so whats the heirachy then in terms of power

1. emperor

2. primarchs

3. thunder warriors

4. custodes

5. astartes

6. everyone else

1. Emperor
2. Primarchs/Custodes, depending on individuals and circumstances
3. Astartes/Custodes, depending on individuals and circumstances
4. Thunder Warriors
5. Everyone else

Ehh, not too sure.

In a one vs one, it'd be more like

1. Emperor (probably?)
2. Primarch
3. Thunder Warrior/Custode
4. Custode/Thunder Warrior
5. Astartes.

Thunder Warriors are better in close combat than an Astartes, but lack the military training and matching wargear. This would also depend on what era of soldier we're talking about. While tech in 40k is generally back-sliding, Power Armor is not such a tech. Newer marks are superior to older Marks.

 Psienesis wrote:
Thunder Warriors are better in close combat than an Astartes, but lack the military training and matching wargear. This would also depend on what era of soldier we're talking about. While tech in 40k is generally back-sliding, Power Armor is not such a tech. Newer marks are superior to older Marks.

I think it's fair to assume it's 30K, considering we're talking about the Emperor, Primarchs, Custodes, and Thunder Warriors fighting

Assuming a fight where they can use all of what could be considered their 'normal' equipment and tactics, not just a stupid fistfight RAR BRAWL:

1. Emperor
2. Primarchs
3. Custodes
4. Astartes
5. Thunder Warriors

1. Emperor
2. Primarchs
3. Custodes
Grey Knights
4. Astartes
5. Thunder Warriors

According to the new GK book, GKs are far and above normal Astartes. YMMV yadda yadda.

LightKing wrote:
if we are to assume that thunder warrios 1 on 1 were more powerful then astartes and custodes

Let's not.

ho would they do against a primarch

Badly.

1.Emperor
2.Primarch
3.Custodes
4.Thunder Warriors
5.Astartes

Well i bet a Thuderwarrior would beat angron at chess

Then probably get his butt kicked with the chess set and the table they where playing on.

It would be... amusing... to watch Angron throttle a Thunder Warrior with a chessboard.

Not sure why people are ranking Thunder Warriors above Astartes. Looking it over, all I can find is that Thunder Warriors are "stronger and more savage in combat" than Astartes. With no mention of discipline, equipment or training quality, all of which Thunder Warriors came up short in.

 Ratius wrote:
1. Emperor
2. Primarchs
3. Custodes
Grey Knights
4. Astartes
5. Thunder Warriors

According to the new GK book, GKs are far and above normal Astartes. YMMV yadda yadda.

Aye, this seems like a good ranking.

 Crimson wrote:

LightKing wrote:
if we are to assume that thunder warrios 1 on 1 were more powerful then astartes and custodes

Let's not.

ho would they do against a primarch

Badly.

Thunder Warriors were stronger and fast than space marines. It is mentioned many times that they were superior warriors. They were in no way a long term force since they were savage tecno barbarians. They were also very labor intensive, similar to the Custodeus.

If they all had their clothes off and got into a throwdown:

Emperor
Primarchs
Adeptus Custodus (created in the same way as thunderwarriors but better training)
Thunder Warriors
Astartes

With all available equipment of their time period:

Emperor
Primarchs
Adeptus Custodus
Astartes
Thunder Warriors

Why would they ever have a naked, gearless brawl, though? Isn't that simply stacking the deck to make a favored side have an advantage?

Has there -ever- been an instance where it was a gearless fistfight?

 curran12 wrote:
Why would they ever have a naked, gearless brawl, though? Isn't that simply stacking the deck to make a favored side have an advantage?

Has there -ever- been an instance where it was a gearless fistfight?

"I am told of a place where warriors do battle in a ring of Gello"

 Mr Morden wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Why would they ever have a naked, gearless brawl, though? Isn't that simply stacking the deck to make a favored side have an advantage?

Has there -ever- been an instance where it was a gearless fistfight?

"I am told of a place where warriors do battle in a ring of Gello"

Sounds like a slannesh day dream

i just remember reading somewhere that a thunder warrior is more powerful then an astartes 1 on 1...but just wasnt as smart, calculating and effective as a unit of war

 curran12 wrote:
Why would they ever have a naked, gearless brawl, though? Isn't that simply stacking the deck to make a favored side have an advantage?

Has there -ever- been an instance where it was a gearless fistfight?

Have they not done gladiatorial style combats?

Either way, it is one way to look at it. Flip it around and say you equip all of them equally, it means the same thing.

Except that it is only equal in terms of the fight, not necessarily what their soldiers are.

After all, do you measure a modern soldier by their skill to combat chariots with spears? No. You measure them based on their skill and their equipment. Why do different for Thunder Warriors vs Astartes?

 Desubot wrote:
Well i bet a Thuderwarrior would beat angron at chess

Then probably get his butt kicked with the chess set and the table they where playing on.

I would just like to second this

thunder warrior would be shockingly good against a primarch but one did head lock a daemon made of fire....

That is because TW are naturally highly-resistant to psychic attacks, probably due to the high number of sorcerers on Terra during the Unification Wars.

So they're specifically resistant to daemons... but a Primarch would probably snap one like a twig, especially one like Angron or Vulkan.

I can't remember the exact name of the book, but in one of the Horus Heresy novels I seem to remember one of the last living Thunder Warriors casually killing Astartes is people are looking for some actual evidence rather than just theory.

But yeah Primarchs would crush Thunder Warriors, and Thunder Warriors would beat Astartes 1 v 1 but would likely lose a large scale engagement due to the superior discipline and structure (and numbers for that matter).

It's a group of renegade TW that are in a defensible position that kill 4 or 5 times their number in Astartes before being completely wiped out.

Given standard military tactics, that's not bad, but not zomg-great, either. Defending a position is always much easier than assaulting one.

Powerguy wrote:
I can't remember the exact name of the book, but in one of the Horus Heresy novels I seem to remember one of the last living Thunder Warriors casually killing Astartes is people are looking for some actual evidence rather than just theory.

But yeah Primarchs would crush Thunder Warriors, and Thunder Warriors would beat Astartes 1 v 1 but would likely lose a large scale engagement due to the superior discipline and structure (and numbers for that matter).

The book is The Outcast Dead.

A Primarch would certainly smoosh an Astartes, Thunder Warrior or Custodian.

Who would win out of an Astartes, Thunder Warrior or Custodian would depend on the individual. A blanket statement saying a Thunder Warrior would win is false in my honest opinion.

Using Bhabu or Ghota as examples for Thunder Warriors isn't great as these are the last of their kind, obviously survivors, hardy and possibly the pinnacle of warriors amongst their kin, so sure, they might be able to beat an Astartes. But someone like Abaddon, or Sigismund, it's not so clean cut, as they are the pinnacles of Astartes.

Thunder Warriors are mentioned as being stronger than Astartes, great, but what then of your Astartes who are mentioned as being stronger than your normal Astartes are they Thunder Warriors

In the majority, yes, Thunder Warriors and Custodes are better in some regards to Astartes but to say all, no, they are not.

To the original question: The Emperor stomps everyone (except Horus hopped up on Chaos juice) and the Primarchs stomp everyone who's not The Emperor or another Primarch. They're just a whole different level than Astartes or Thunder Warriors.

As for the other debate- I would generally assume that Astartes beat Thunder Warriors at anything other than a bare fisted brawl, by being more disciplined, well rounded, smarter, etc. If the Thunder Warriors were, on average, better than Astartes, why would the Emperor invent Astartes instead of just making more Thunder Warriors?

1. Emperor
2.Marbo
3.Most of the Primarchs
4.Custodes
5. Mortarion
6.Thunder Warriors
7.Astartes

Haha jokes on you... Emperor IS Marbo.

Marbo is love, Marbo is life.

 fallinq wrote:
To the original question: The Emperor stomps everyone (except Horus hopped up on Chaos juice) and the Primarchs stomp everyone who's not The Emperor or another Primarch. They're just a whole different level than Astartes or Thunder Warriors.

As for the other debate- I would generally assume that Astartes beat Thunder Warriors at anything other than a bare fisted brawl, by being more disciplined, well rounded, smarter, etc. If the Thunder Warriors were, on average, better than Astartes, why would the Emperor invent Astartes instead of just making more Thunder Warriors?

The 40k wiki and lexicanum states that the TW were a means to an end for the unification war and were meant to be discarded once unification was acheved because the emperor deliberately engineered the TW with a limited life span.

Thunder warriors are stronger, have huge upper body strength, and intended to fight savage battles and are more savage, aggressive etc. In outcast dead they are more world eater in ghota, but even his boss needs to rein in his aggression. There not ment to last for hundreds of years or do the same job as a space marine.

When a legendary thunder warrior can get a world eaters awe to some degree, and dodge weapons a fire despite being huge.
And these examples are not in best of helath yet they can kill marines, casually escape a slaughter in the temple then seem to hunt down and kill a marine to use for his organs.

So in a close up fight they may have advantage but on a ranged battlefield less so. There intended to fight close up engagements on terrain battlegirlds not the varied planets of the crusade.

The fluff pretty clearly paints them as a better warrior than astartes one on one. They also have early versions of bolters available, so they weren't just CC warriors.

Obviously some astatres will be capable of killing they or custodes. But when you do these sorts of fun lists, you are looking at the average soldier.

 Pyeatt wrote:
1. Emperor
2.Marbo
3.Most of the Primarchs
4.Custodes
5. Mortarion
6.Thunder Warriors
7.Astartes

Haha jokes on you... Emperor IS Marbo.

Marbo is love, Marbo is life.

Best answer right here

it has been insinuated that had he been trying properly the emperor could have mind raped-i mean mind-exploded horus from the get-go.

1. Emperor
2. ---POWER GAP---
3. Primarchs / Legendary Space Marine Heroes
4. Grey Knights
5. Adeptus Astartes / Legio Custodes
6. Legiones Astartes
7. Thunder Warriors

Animus wrote:
1. Emperor
2. ---POWER GAP---
3. Primarchs / Legendary Space Marine Heroes
4. Grey Knights
5. Adeptus Astartes / Legio Custodes
6. Legiones Astartes
7. Thunder Warriors

Custodes are higher up than Grey Knights.

It is known that the process of creating TW and Custodes creates more powerful warriors than the geneseed process. That is indisputable. You just can't make enough of them, so the geneseed process was turned to for efficiency while still producing an incredible product.

And yes, the Emperor could have destroyed Horus from the start.

 PhillyT wrote:

Custodes are higher up than Grey Knights.

I disagree emphatically. The Custodes were destroyed by the Thousand Sons, who were also Sorcerers; being a combat capable psyker is simply a massive advantage. Additionally the Grey Knights don't have the war-gear disadvantage compared to the Custodes that most Marines have. Furthermore, after the Heresy Guilliman removed the weaknesses from the Astartes creation method, which had led to physical and mental weakness among the Space Marines of the Legions. The Adeptus are superior stock, and even in the days of the Legions a fight between a Space Marine and a Custodian was judged to be too close to call.

Yet we have at least one instance where a couple of Custodes were able to contain a Primarch.

The fluff is clear that both TW and Custodes are superior physically to geneseed produced SM. Regarding whatever built in weakness you are referring to, I don't know.

The fluff has been consistent that the geneseed process was for efficiency not efficacy. Hand constructed soldiers like custodes were better because each was custom made.

The "greats" of the Astartes could stand toe to toe with Custodes and TW, but there is quite a lot of consistency in the claim of physical superiority.

 PhillyT wrote:
Yet we have at least one instance where a couple of Custodes were able to contain a Primarch.

Where is that? And we have at least one instance of a Grey Knight soloing a Primarch.

 PhillyT wrote:
The fluff is clear that both TW and Custodes are superior physically to geneseed produced SM. Regarding whatever built in weakness you are referring to, I don't know.

I don't think the fluff is that clear. It's been said in Blood Games that a fight between a Space Marine and a Custodian would be too close to bet on. The processes used to create Space Marines during the Great Crusade caused physical and mental weaknesses among the Marines, theorized to the cause of so many falling, Guilliman fixed this in the Codex Astartes.
We can look at other individual cases, but that just shows individual skill.

Abnett's one off comment doesn't necessarily disregard the comments in the fluff or the actions in First Heretic where custodes actually crush astartes.

It comes back to the point made time and time again that custodes don't fight like marines. They are single combatants and body guards, not trained for squad or army tactics.

When expanded up to company level combats, they don't do that great and are likely just the same.

As far as the custodes versus primarchs, wasn't it Valindor who beat Horus in a duel?

 PhillyT wrote:
Abnett's one off comment doesn't necessarily disregard the comments in the fluff or the actions in First Heretic where custodes actually crush astartes.

I think it does, as it's a general statement, compared to specific individual fighters. What about when a naked Space Marine ripped out the heart of a full armed and armoured Custodian in the Outcast Dead?
Clearly it's dependent on the skill of the individual.

 PhillyT wrote:
It comes back to the point made time and time again that custodes don't fight like marines. They are single combatants and body guards, not trained for squad or army tactics.

I never understood this, because body guards would be pretty useless if they couldn't actually work in tandem.

 PhillyT wrote:
As far as the custodes versus primarchs, wasn't it Valindor who beat Horus in a duel?

Not that I've ever seen proven with a source.

All it says in the Abnett example is the person wouldn't want to place a bet. It is a general statement, but by the same token we are specifically told that both TW and Custodes are larger and stronger than astartes for the reasons already mentioned.

As far as the bodyguard thing, I believe the constant claim is similar to the old claims made by the greeks and Romans concerning the various "barbarians" they faced. While Greeks, and especially Romans, fought as a unit, barbarians were individual combatants. One on one they were very dangerous, but when fighting as part of a unit, they were overcome.

I can't recall the book, but astartes are referred to as wolves (pack hunters) while Custodes are lions (individual hunters). I am sure Custodes are capable of small unit tactics, they do that all the time, but when it comes to company and chapter level actions, that isn't really their bag.

 PhillyT wrote:
Yet we have at least one instance where a couple of Custodes were able to contain a Primarch.

Where?

Also, Grey Knights are probably overall better than Custodians.

We see how well the Custodians deal with psykers in A Thousand Sons.

Not well at all.

well didn't Luther beat the Lion in single combat? or is there more context to their fight?

LightKing wrote:
well didn't Luther beat the Lion in single combat? or is there more context to their fight?

Luther glutting on the power of Chaos making him a miniature Horus is the context to the fight.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

LightKing wrote:
well didn't Luther beat the Lion in single combat? or is there more context to their fight?

Luther glutting on the power of Chaos making him a miniature Horus is the context to the fight.

so without chaos luther would of had no chance against lion?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Yet we have at least one instance where a couple of Custodes were able to contain a Primarch.

Where?

Also, Grey Knights are probably overall better than Custodians.

We see how well the Custodians deal with psykers in A Thousand Sons.

Not well at all.

Didn't they kill well over their number in Thousand Sons?

I am also not really a buyer in terms of the new Grey Knight book putting them head and shoulders above all other Astartes.

 PhillyT wrote:

Didn't they kill well over their number in Thousand Sons?

I am also not really a buyer in terms of the new Grey Knight book putting them head and shoulders above all other Astartes.

We surely don't see it.

The only Custodian we see really doing well is Valdor, the strongest Custodian, who is surrounded by his honor guard and hanging out with Leman Russ.

A single Thousand Sons captain casually killed four of them with a single gesture and actually remarked that Custodians aren't as tough as he thought they'd be.

As for you not being a buyer of the new GK book putting them head and shoulders above all other Astartes, I don't care. That's what the fluff says. Why shouldn't it? They're better-equipped Marines who also happen to be competent psykers. It would be ludicrous to think they wouldn't be more powerful on average.

Yeah but aren't the captains more powerful than a normal thousand son?

 PhillyT wrote:
Yeah but aren't the captains more powerful than a normal thousand son?

Sure, but it does show that Custodians have no special defense against psykers.

The average Grey Knight isn't that powerful but what advantages does a Custodian have over the Grey Knight? The strength advantage is completely negated by hammerhand, and the Grey Knight is even better-equipped than the Custodian.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's a group of renegade TW that are in a defensible position that kill 4 or 5 times their number in Astartes before being completely wiped out.

Given standard military tactics, that's not bad, but not zomg-great, either. Defending a position is always much easier than assaulting one.

Uhh no. They survive.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Yeah but aren't the captains more powerful than a normal thousand son?

Sure, but it does show that Custodians have no special defense against psykers.

The average Grey Knight isn't that powerful but what advantages does a Custodian have over the Grey Knight? The strength advantage is completely negated by hammerhand, and the Grey Knight is even better-equipped than the Custodian.

Grey knight equipment isn't better than Custodes. It is the same. As far as the psychic route, an individual Grey Knight barely registers as a psychic. They are a low level power who are taught to focus their power with their brothers to achieve a tangible effect. I wouldn't think they could do much other than charge their force weapon in a fight with a Custodes one on one.

what about Pre-Heresy Horus vs. Current 40k Abaddon

that would be a great fight....

Fluff incarnation of Abaddon? Abaddon as the chosen of chaos.

Chaos Horus versus Chaos Abaddon, Horus by a wide margin.

but doesn't Abaddon have a negative view of Horus..... i mean he probably thinks he is superior to Horus during the 13th black crusade seeing as he achieved much more then Horus did


a chaos abaddon would beat a non chaos horus

both chaos powered,yeah horus would win

Yeah, as the supped up chosen, Abaddon would beat an unpowered Horus. I mean didn't The Lion struggle against his Chaos infused Foster father?

 PhillyT wrote:
Yeah, as the supped up chosen, Abaddon would beat an unpowered Horus. I mean didn't The Lion struggle against his Chaos infused Foster father?

do you think chaos amped abaddon vs. chaos amped horus would at least be an interesting fight

LightKing wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Yeah, as the supped up chosen, Abaddon would beat an unpowered Horus. I mean didn't The Lion struggle against his Chaos infused Foster father?

do you think chaos amped abaddon vs. chaos amped horus would at least be an interesting fight

No, Horus would toss him around.

its interesting cause Abaddon has so much hatred towards Horus.....his own mentor...


why? i mean does he still care, think about Horus during the 13th black crusade "what would Horus do" or has he totally forgotten about him

 Ashiraya wrote:

LightKing wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Yeah, as the supped up chosen, Abaddon would beat an unpowered Horus. I mean didn't The Lion struggle against his Chaos infused Foster father?

do you think chaos amped abaddon vs. chaos amped horus would at least be an interesting fight

No, Horus would toss him around.

I can't imagine that would be the case. In the fluff, being chaos infused was enough to make sub-marines like Luthor a match or challenge for The Lion. Abaddon was already almost the size of Abaddon, I would imagine with all that power funneled in he would be above him.

 PhillyT wrote:


Grey knight equipment isn't better than Custodes. It is the same. As far as the psychic route, an individual Grey Knight barely registers as a psychic. They are a low level power who are taught to focus their power with their brothers to achieve a tangible effect. I wouldn't think they could do much other than charge their force weapon in a fight with a Custodes one on one.

Custodians don't get access to powerful sorcery or Nemesis Force Weapons.

Don't they? They still have access to Hammerhand, which switches the physical advantage. Now the Marine is stronger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PhillyT wrote:


I can't imagine that would be the case. In the fluff, being chaos infused was enough to make sub-marines like Luthor a match or challenge for The Lion. Abaddon was already almost the size of Abaddon, I would imagine with all that power funneled in he would be above him.

Luther amplified by Chaos would tear Abby to pieces, in all likelihood.

Standard Grey Knights aren't powerful psychers. And yes, Grey Knights have force weapons, but all Custodes have power halberds.

As far as Luthor, Luthor had less chaos power flowing through him than Abaddon does and wouldn't have been as powerful as an uncharged Abaddon before either was chaos pumped.

All GK are powerful psykers. Some are just more powerful than others, but there is no non-Psyker Grey Knight. An ML 1 Psyker is one potent badass psyker, being delta-grade, at least.

They are pretty low level as far as psykers go.

 PhillyT wrote:
All it says in the Abnett example is the person wouldn't want to place a bet.

It says no one would, not any specific person, and this is before Guilliman removed the weakness from the Space Marines.

 PhillyT wrote:
It is a general statement, but by the same token we are specifically told that both TW and Custodes are larger and stronger than astartes for the reasons already mentioned.

We are also told that Space marines are the most powerful and feared warriors of the Imperium.

 PhillyT wrote:
I can't recall the book, but astartes are referred to as wolves (pack hunters) while Custodes are lions (individual hunters).

Also silly, seeing as how Lions hunt in groups for groups.

 PhillyT wrote:
Standard Grey Knights aren't powerful psychers. And yes, Grey Knights have force weapons, but all Custodes have power halberds.

Grey Knights are all very potent psykers, actually. Only one in a million is strong enough and their recruitment ground is the entire Imperium.
Force Weapons > power weapons. Storm Bolters > bolter.

Only on the table-top. An ML1 IG Psyker is still, in comparison to all psykers in the Imperium, pants-gakkingly powerful. An ML3 Psyker is a beta-grade/low-alpha level psyker... which is considered "godlike" in some cultures.

The problem is that the tabletop game only has a limited range of powers, and none of them are well-balanced, and a limited way to apply those powers. It also focuses almost all of its powers to offensive applications, with a sprinkling of psychic "buffs" in some armies and some units. With a wider range of powers (properly balanced), having psykers who could heal, create telekinetic (or temporal) shields, remove units from the flow of time, create mental illusions/hallucinations, mind-control enemy units or similar psychic feats, an ML1 unit would appear more potent than they currently do.

But an ML1 psyker is still a powerful psyker. Especially in the GK. Weak psykers need not apply.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

LightKing wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Yeah, as the supped up chosen, Abaddon would beat an unpowered Horus. I mean didn't The Lion struggle against his Chaos infused Foster father?

do you think chaos amped abaddon vs. chaos amped horus would at least be an interesting fight

No, Horus would toss him around.

I can't imagine that would be the case. In the fluff, being chaos infused was enough to make sub-marines like Luthor a match or challenge for The Lion. Abaddon was already almost the size of Abaddon, I would imagine with all that power funneled in he would be above him.

Not only do I disagree with your assertion, it is based on an incorrect premise - note how he asked about both being amped.

Easy win for Horus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PhillyT wrote:


As far as Luthor, Luthor had less chaos power flowing through him than Abaddon does and wouldn't have been as powerful as an uncharged Abaddon before either was chaos pumped.

Source?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

LightKing wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Yeah, as the supped up chosen, Abaddon would beat an unpowered Horus. I mean didn't The Lion struggle against his Chaos infused Foster father?

do you think chaos amped abaddon vs. chaos amped horus would at least be an interesting fight

No, Horus would toss him around.

I can't imagine that would be the case. In the fluff, being chaos infused was enough to make sub-marines like Luthor a match or challenge for The Lion. Abaddon was already almost the size of Abaddon, I would imagine with all that power funneled in he would be above him.

Not only do I disagree with your assertion, it is based on an incorrect premise - note how he asked about both being amped.

Easy win for Horus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PhillyT wrote:


As far as Luthor, Luthor had less chaos power flowing through him than Abaddon does and wouldn't have been as powerful as an uncharged Abaddon before either was chaos pumped.

Maybe we aren't talking about the same thing.

My claim is Horus is more powerful than Abaddon when both are charged up. Abaddon would be better than Horus if Abaddon was charged and Horus was not.

If Luthor, an augmented warrior but non-space marine, was able to fight The Lion when he was charged up with chaos power (he wasn't the chosen of all four chaos gods like Horus and Abaddon), then Abaddon, already the cream of the Sons of Horus, infused with all four chaos gods, could defeat Horus unaugmented.

But I suppose that assumes the The Lion is only slightly below Horus in combat ability and that Abaddon is better than Luthor from the start and that being the chosen of chaos would imply more power than just a guy giving himself over to chaos.

Source?

Well Luthor wasn't the chosen of chaos. He gave himself over to chaos and was rewarded, but I wouldn't think that pops him above the guy who took the mantle of chosen from Horus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
Only on the table-top. An ML1 IG Psyker is still, in comparison to all psykers in the Imperium, pants-gakkingly powerful. An ML3 Psyker is a beta-grade/low-alpha level psyker... which is considered "godlike" in some cultures.

The problem is that the tabletop game only has a limited range of powers, and none of them are well-balanced, and a limited way to apply those powers. It also focuses almost all of its powers to offensive applications, with a sprinkling of psychic "buffs" in some armies and some units. With a wider range of powers (properly balanced), having psykers who could heal, create telekinetic (or temporal) shields, remove units from the flow of time, create mental illusions/hallucinations, mind-control enemy units or similar psychic feats, an ML1 unit would appear more potent than they currently do.

But an ML1 psyker is still a powerful psyker. Especially in the GK. Weak psykers need not apply.

I understand where you are coming from, and I also get that all psykers are rare.

I suppose the issue comes down to the performance of the custodes in combat. In Prespero Burns, do the custodes under Valdor defeat a superior force of Thousand Sons? The Lexicanium claims that and it states that they killed the thousand sons three greatest psykers.

 PhillyT wrote:
In Prespero Burns, do the custodes under Valdor defeat a superior force of Thousand Sons?

No. Before they bring out the Sister of Silence the Custodes and Wolves are getting murdered horribly.
One of the Captains goes full Chaos and becomes all but unstoppable, he only lets himself get killed when he realises he's become a monster.

Pop over and edit the Lexicanium then, because they have it pretty wrong apparently.

 PhillyT wrote:
Pop over and edit the Lexicanium then, because they have it pretty wrong apparently.

I don't use Lexicanum.

Well if that is an accurate take on what transpired, whoever wrote the Valdor biography read a different book than you and you would be a valuable resource.

 PhillyT wrote:
Standard Grey Knights aren't powerful psychers. And yes, Grey Knights have force weapons, but all Custodes have power halberds.

They are strong psykers. Among the strongest in the galaxy? Not necessarily. But certainly above the majority. All sanctioned psykers are, and Grey Knights are about that powerful if not better.

Nemesis Force Weapons are better than Power Halberds though. Since they obliterate your soul with a single wound.

As far as Luthor, Luthor had less chaos power flowing through him than Abaddon does

There is no reason to assume this.

and wouldn't have been as powerful as an uncharged Abaddon before either was chaos pumped.

Arguably true, but irrelevant.

So much power was invested in Luther and his rebellion that when he lost, the enraged power of the Dark Gods destroyed the entire planet.

Reading the fluff, it didn't seem as though Luthor had more power infused than Horus. It seems unlikely, but I guess it never denied it.

 PhillyT wrote:
Well if that is an accurate take on what transpired, whoever wrote the Valdor biography read a different book than you and you would be a valuable resource.

I do not have the patience to write articles. I would simply recommend reading the sources yourself rather than just going by the article.

Also, I doubt that Grey Knights are individually more powerful than sanctioned psykers. I assumed they were basically sanctioned psykers with the added bonus of being turned into a space marine.

TW VS Primarch - This isn't even a fight. It's a squishing. Like "I'm pinching your head" type effort. Note how easily Primarchs like Johnson and Angron are written to basically just karate chop an astartes head off and people don't even notice the swipe?

However; in comparison to astartes, TW are shown in outcast dead to be stronger and faster. They appear to have a single deficiency in comparison : lifespan. It appears they lived pretty much normal human lifespans, and in fact lived less long than those regular humans getting rejuvenat treatments. It's either directly said or alluded to in the extreme in that awful book that they are degenerating and they are literally falling apart.

Astartes are old reliable. TW are 30 years(add ten or twenty) of fury and they start falling apart.

Short lived super warriors just aren't good for space based warfare across a whole friggin galaxy. The potential lifespan of an astartes is one of his greatest assets.

Animus wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Well if that is an accurate take on what transpired, whoever wrote the Valdor biography read a different book than you and you would be a valuable resource.

I do not have the patience to write articles. I would simply recommend reading the sources yourself rather than just going by the article.

Given that the majority of BL novels are utter garbage, that isn't an effective use of my time. It also seems somewhat unlikely that it is as cut and dry as your appraisal, given the reviewable nature of Lexicanium articles, though who knows how many people actually take the time to edit them.

 PhillyT wrote:
Also, I doubt that Grey Knights are individually more powerful than sanctioned psykers. I assumed they were basically sanctioned psykers with the added bonus of being turned into a space marine.

Sanctioned Psykers as seen on the battlefield are themselves quite powerful. Out of about a million of those, one is worthy of being a Grey Knight.

Which is really a question of surviving the process more so than the actual power of the psyker.

Lexicanum wrote:Considering the role of the Grey Knights, potential recruits are put through even more stringent trials than other Space Marine Neophytes. Unlike most Space Marine Chapters, the Grey Knight recruits are often drawn directly from the Black Ships after they return to Terra they are then brought to Titan for testing.[7] The most advanced bio-engineering and psycho-surgery available is utilised to condition the Neophytes, and each recruit must pass the six hundred and sixty six Rituals of Detestation, to prove that he is capable of withstanding horrors that would break even the greatest of 'normal' Space Marines. Upon success, the recruit also has the majority of their memories and personality erased[16a], to better ensure their absolute and unwavering loyalty to the Emperor. One of the main criteria for selection is that the recruit must show great psychic potential, as the entire Chapter is made up of psykers. Once accepted into the chapter and undergoing the standard process to transform into a member of the Adeptus Astartes, the new Grey Knight is also implanted with silver purity wards under his skin which cover his entire body.

 PhillyT wrote:
Which is really a question of surviving the process more so than the actual power of the psyker.

Survival of the fittest, and they only take the strongest recruits from the black ships in the first place, so only the truly strong survive. Each Grey Knight is an accomplished Sorcerer, all of them need sufficient enough power to create the aegis.
Grey Knights have extraordinary minds: "No ordinary human psyker could hope to do this, for even the attempt would leave his mind ravaged and corrupted beyond salvation. Yet a Grey Knight can not only endure such trials, but thrive amongst them. His strength lies not in martial might alone, bu also his mind."

Even looking at that inflation, Grey Knights focus on defense and incorruptability. They aren't psychic spell slingers.

More powerful members do become the most potent psykers the imperium puts on the battlefield, but on the average they are defensive warriors.

Concerning custodes, the issue is as most: there is a lack of consistence in the authors. There are accounts that have them a head taller than a Marine and the always repeated "they are to marines as marine are o humans" that get knocked around.

 PhillyT wrote:
Even looking at that inflation, Grey Knights focus on defense and incorruptability. They aren't psychic spell slingers.

More powerful members do become the most potent psykers the imperium puts on the battlefield, but on the average they are defensive warriors.

Concerning custodes, the issue is as most: there is a lack of consistence in the authors. There are accounts that have them a head taller than a Marine and the always repeated "they are to marines as marine are o humans" that get knocked around.

In the Emperor's Gift the Grey Knights are shown throwing around telekinesis. Purifiers, who can be recruited from anywhere in the Chapters, can conjure psychic fire. Then there's the good old trusty hammerhand.
I've never seen "they are to marines as marine are o humans" in regards to Custodes outside of fanfiction.

We aren't talking about purifiers. We are referring to standard grey knights.

That's like cherry picking companions, who would lay waste to space marines in droves.

 PhillyT wrote:
We aren't talking about purifiers. We are referring to standard grey knights.

That's like cherry picking companions, who would lay waste to space marines in droves.

But you don't have to be a Purifier to throw about psyflame.
Purifiers aren't even recruited for their strength.
Grey Knights can do offensive psychic powers, be it telepathy, telekinesis or witchfire.

how powerful is a Grey Knight compared to Magnus

in pure psyker ability

LightKing wrote:
how powerful is a Grey Knight compared to Magnus

in pure psyker ability

Not very for the most part.

LightKing wrote:
how powerful is a Grey Knight compared to Magnus

in pure psyker ability

Laughably weak.

 Psienesis wrote:

LightKing wrote:
how powerful is a Grey Knight compared to Magnus

in pure psyker ability

Laughably weak.

obviously Magnus is more powerful then a standard grey knight

but by how much?

LightKing wrote:


obviously Magnus is more powerful then a standard grey knight

but by how much?

Considerably more powerful.

He could kill the average Grey Knight with a glance.

LightKing wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

LightKing wrote:
how powerful is a Grey Knight compared to Magnus

in pure psyker ability

Laughably weak.

obviously Magnus is more powerful then a standard grey knight

but by how much?

Like Void Dragon said, your average GK would die if Magnus thought about him dying. Like, GK is standing there, doot-dee-doo, Magnus walks by. GK explodes into a fountain of gore, because the thought of it briefly entered Magnus' mind.

Magnus is arguably the second most powerful psyker in history (After the Emperor). In terms of raw psychic power I doubt any Grey Knight can match him, to be honest.

The best gk psyker, is probably very comparable to a 30k 1k suns cult leader. Magnus is basically a warp god/prince pre daemonhood just like his pops.

A Single Thunder Warrior vs

A lone Astartes (Assume Legion Company Captain or modern Vet Sgt level): Massecre in favour of the TW, who is massively more powerful.

A Custodes: No contest, Custodes are simply above and beyond TW. Made using a refined version of TW tech, smarter and better trained.

Any Primarch bar Magnus, Angron, Vulkan or Ferrus: Primarch wins within 10 seconds, guarenteed.

Magnus: Shreds him with psychic powers beyond anything the TW has ever been designed against.

Angron- rips him into tiny pieces and looks for his next fight

Vulkan or Ferrus- crushed his head in one hand.




The Emperor: See above, x102, x23

nope. vulkan headbutts him and death insues.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
nope. vulkan headbutts him and death insues.

And then he'd cry because he killed a human.

and then he would brand himself in penance, and kill a ton of night lords.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
nope. vulkan headbutts him and death insues.

And then he'd cry because he killed a human.

No, he wouldn't. Thunder Warriors are nod more human than Astartes and in a fight to the death Vulkan would not feel guilt.

If anything, this thread highlights the broken fluff that exists. We couldn't even convince people of how tall a space marine is despite the fluff specifically putting a clear number on that. People groped at vague statements to support wildly different numbers.

You then have examples of Custodes trashing astartes. Then an example of an unarmored astartes ripping open a custodes armor with his bare hands and tearing his spin out.

GW can't get its own fluff straight.

 PhillyT wrote:
If anything, this thread highlights the broken fluff that exists. We couldn't even convince people of how tall a space marine is despite the fluff specifically putting a clear number on that. People groped at vague statements to support wildly different numbers.

Still mad over other cases than your preferred one existing?

Marine sizes vary extremely heavily between book and book, and none is more canon.

No, because the majority of cases is consistent enough!

lol

IOW 'It must be the way I prefer it, if I don't like it it's objectively wrong!'

Well there is always a caveat with GW. They give anyone a strand to hang their particular interpretation.

 PhillyT wrote:
Well there is always a caveat with GW. They give anyone a strand to hang their particular interpretation.

Yep, a key part of the setting!

Assuming this is an honour battle similar to the Feast of Blades, I assume it would be:

1. Emperor
2. Primarch (any)
3. Custodes
4. Grey Knight
5. Thunder Warrior
6. Astartes

I just think the Thunder Warrior would take the Astartes purely because of the fact he could rip him in half with his arse cheeks.

Animus wrote:


I think it does, as it's a general statement, compared to specific individual fighters. What about when a naked Space Marine ripped out the heart of a full armed and armoured Custodian in the Outcast Dead?
Clearly it's dependent on the skill of the individual.

I don't think highlighting one of the hh most ridiculous moments does much to promote your cause, knives, axes and even chainswords don't go through ceremite easily but one world eater managed to do just that and rip out the heart of a custodes with ork aids. Outcast dead is a ridiculously poor book.

Not as bad as know no fear when all the astartes suffer from stormtrooper syndrome however.

I haven't read the new gk codec but I don't think gk's are on average more powerful than other space marines some of course are because they are powerful psykers but in emperor's gift the great wolf put them in their place, that's how I think they should be they are specialists and great at what they do but when fighting Orks, eldar and DE or necrons they are no better.

Why do you think Space Marines who double as competent psykers wouldn't be more powerful on average than normal Marines?

Also, you can't deny one poor book and then use another as a reference. The second half of The Emperor's Gift was pretty bad.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

LightKing wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Yeah, as the supped up chosen, Abaddon would beat an unpowered Horus. I mean didn't The Lion struggle against his Chaos infused Foster father?

do you think chaos amped abaddon vs. chaos amped horus would at least be an interesting fight

No, Horus would toss him around.

I can't imagine that would be the case. In the fluff, being chaos infused was enough to make sub-marines like Luthor a match or challenge for The Lion. Abaddon was already almost the size of Abaddon, I would imagine with all that power funneled in he would be above him.

Primarchs are strong enough to punch a Marine's head off, tank direct shots from lascannons, etc. Even fully empowered Abaddon would be turned into a paint smear by Horus before his empowerment.

The primarch of the Raven Guard turned with an inhuman cry, letting the thrumming wing-blades affixed to his smoking jetpack slice out with their killing edges. Word Bearers tumbled away in droves, shredded into lumps of armoured flesh. The claws followed, rending any of the grey warriors unlucky enough to be in range of the warlord's landing.

Once he was in motion, Corax never slowed. He was a blur of charcoal armour and black blades, carving, chopping, dismembering without effort, mutilating with the barest movement, butchering with an ease that belied his ferocity.

Lascannon fire rained towards the primarch as the Iron Warriors turned their turrets on the gravest threat in range. The Word Bearers caught in the net of streaming fire were sliced apart as surely as the ones killed by Corax's claws, but the beams themselves flashed aside from the primarch's armour, never striking it straight-on, leaving savage burn scars but never once penetrating.
- The First Heretic, pg. 444

Argel Tal, Space Marine who can react at low milisecond to even microsecond speeds, just sees Corax as a blur of motion in battle.

The primarch acted without hesitation. Stooping in his run, he snatched up a shard of rock. With a flick of his arm, With a flick of his arm, he hurled the stone at the Iron Warrior. As a dark blur it struck the Space Marine in the throat and erupted from the back of his neck, silently felling him.
- Shadows of Treachery, pg. 242

Primarchs are also strong enough to fling stones so hard that they can penetrate the soft armor of power armor and fully penetrate.

As far as an HH era battle would go, the TW would be superior in strength, speed, etc. But Astartes have more skill. An SW in his prime (15 years or so) compared to an Astartes in his prime (50-500 years) would be an easy battle. I think in order of an ordinary soldier at his best would go like this:
1.)the Emperor
2.)Horus
3.)Magnus
4)Angron
5.)Abaddon
6.)Luther
7.)"Normal" Primarchs/Legendary Chapter Master
8.) Adeptus Custodes/Chapter Master
9.) Grey Knights
10.) Astartes
11.) Thunder Warriors

Adeptus Custodes are the equivalent of a Space Marine Legion Master as far as skill, talent and training go. They are the best of the best of the best with the best gear and the best everything. The Grey Knights are the best of the best of the Psykers with the best Gear, etc. Horus - obvious. Angron - obvious. Magnus - Obvious (he was meant to replace the Emperor on the Golden Throne for Throne's sake) Abaddon - he may be a chosen but he started out as an ordinary, albeit skilled, Astartes warrior. Luther - Obvious Primarchs - obvious. Astartes - standard SM has more skill and more talent and more experience than average TW.

1 on 1
Abaddon and luther over umm normal primarchs. They weren't worth a piss in the time of primarchs, well koas infused luther was, sort of

Might as well believe that Sanguinius just knelt down to be choked by horus to stop the rage. which could or could not be a lie?
Magnus is next to useless, Hes got alzheimrs or something,

For the most part grey knights can only use powers when in a group. allah focused latent powers, otherwise just regular marines. Which thunder warriors were supposed to be immune to.

I put thunder warriors on a not quite refined custode levels. the fact that their upper body strength was stronger already gives them a edge 1 on 1. Any fool can point a gun

Since BL books are the bottom feeders of the fluff hierarchy, I'll go with the official sources and continue to accept the Custodes and Thunder Warriors over Astartes.

 PhillyT wrote:
Since BL books are the bottom feeders of the fluff hierarchy, I'll go with the official sources and continue to accept the Custodes and Thunder Warriors over Astartes.

That isn't how it works.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Since BL books are the bottom feeders of the fluff hierarchy, I'll go with the official sources and continue to accept the Custodes and Thunder Warriors over Astartes.

That isn't how it works.

It indeed isn't how it works.

Also, I'd see it more like this.

Emperor
Primarch (any)
Astartes champions (Abaddon, Sigismund...)
Custodes
Grey Knights
Astartes
Thunder Warriors