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A Primarch would certainly smoosh an Astartes, Thunder Warrior or Custodian.

Who would win out of an Astartes, Thunder Warrior or Custodian would depend on the individual. A blanket statement saying a Thunder Warrior would win is false in my honest opinion.

Using Bhabu or Ghota as examples for Thunder Warriors isn't great as these are the last of their kind, obviously survivors, hardy and possibly the pinnacle of warriors amongst their kin, so sure, they might be able to beat an Astartes. But someone like Abaddon, or Sigismund, it's not so clean cut, as they are the pinnacles of Astartes.

Thunder Warriors are mentioned as being stronger than Astartes, great, but what then of your Astartes who are mentioned as being stronger than your normal Astartes are they Thunder Warriors

In the majority, yes, Thunder Warriors and Custodes are better in some regards to Astartes but to say all, no, they are not.

To the original question: The Emperor stomps everyone (except Horus hopped up on Chaos juice) and the Primarchs stomp everyone who's not The Emperor or another Primarch. They're just a whole different level than Astartes or Thunder Warriors.

As for the other debate- I would generally assume that Astartes beat Thunder Warriors at anything other than a bare fisted brawl, by being more disciplined, well rounded, smarter, etc. If the Thunder Warriors were, on average, better than Astartes, why would the Emperor invent Astartes instead of just making more Thunder Warriors?

1. Emperor
2.Marbo
3.Most of the Primarchs
4.Custodes
5. Mortarion
6.Thunder Warriors
7.Astartes

Haha jokes on you... Emperor IS Marbo.

Marbo is love, Marbo is life.

 fallinq wrote:
To the original question: The Emperor stomps everyone (except Horus hopped up on Chaos juice) and the Primarchs stomp everyone who's not The Emperor or another Primarch. They're just a whole different level than Astartes or Thunder Warriors.

As for the other debate- I would generally assume that Astartes beat Thunder Warriors at anything other than a bare fisted brawl, by being more disciplined, well rounded, smarter, etc. If the Thunder Warriors were, on average, better than Astartes, why would the Emperor invent Astartes instead of just making more Thunder Warriors?

The 40k wiki and lexicanum states that the TW were a means to an end for the unification war and were meant to be discarded once unification was acheved because the emperor deliberately engineered the TW with a limited life span.

Thunder warriors are stronger, have huge upper body strength, and intended to fight savage battles and are more savage, aggressive etc. In outcast dead they are more world eater in ghota, but even his boss needs to rein in his aggression. There not ment to last for hundreds of years or do the same job as a space marine.

When a legendary thunder warrior can get a world eaters awe to some degree, and dodge weapons a fire despite being huge.
And these examples are not in best of helath yet they can kill marines, casually escape a slaughter in the temple then seem to hunt down and kill a marine to use for his organs.

So in a close up fight they may have advantage but on a ranged battlefield less so. There intended to fight close up engagements on terrain battlegirlds not the varied planets of the crusade.

The fluff pretty clearly paints them as a better warrior than astartes one on one. They also have early versions of bolters available, so they weren't just CC warriors.

Obviously some astatres will be capable of killing they or custodes. But when you do these sorts of fun lists, you are looking at the average soldier.

 Pyeatt wrote:
1. Emperor
2.Marbo
3.Most of the Primarchs
4.Custodes
5. Mortarion
6.Thunder Warriors
7.Astartes

Haha jokes on you... Emperor IS Marbo.

Marbo is love, Marbo is life.

Best answer right here

it has been insinuated that had he been trying properly the emperor could have mind raped-i mean mind-exploded horus from the get-go.

1. Emperor
2. ---POWER GAP---
3. Primarchs / Legendary Space Marine Heroes
4. Grey Knights
5. Adeptus Astartes / Legio Custodes
6. Legiones Astartes
7. Thunder Warriors

Animus wrote:
1. Emperor
2. ---POWER GAP---
3. Primarchs / Legendary Space Marine Heroes
4. Grey Knights
5. Adeptus Astartes / Legio Custodes
6. Legiones Astartes
7. Thunder Warriors

Custodes are higher up than Grey Knights.

It is known that the process of creating TW and Custodes creates more powerful warriors than the geneseed process. That is indisputable. You just can't make enough of them, so the geneseed process was turned to for efficiency while still producing an incredible product.

And yes, the Emperor could have destroyed Horus from the start.

 PhillyT wrote:

Custodes are higher up than Grey Knights.

I disagree emphatically. The Custodes were destroyed by the Thousand Sons, who were also Sorcerers; being a combat capable psyker is simply a massive advantage. Additionally the Grey Knights don't have the war-gear disadvantage compared to the Custodes that most Marines have. Furthermore, after the Heresy Guilliman removed the weaknesses from the Astartes creation method, which had led to physical and mental weakness among the Space Marines of the Legions. The Adeptus are superior stock, and even in the days of the Legions a fight between a Space Marine and a Custodian was judged to be too close to call.

Yet we have at least one instance where a couple of Custodes were able to contain a Primarch.

The fluff is clear that both TW and Custodes are superior physically to geneseed produced SM. Regarding whatever built in weakness you are referring to, I don't know.

The fluff has been consistent that the geneseed process was for efficiency not efficacy. Hand constructed soldiers like custodes were better because each was custom made.

The "greats" of the Astartes could stand toe to toe with Custodes and TW, but there is quite a lot of consistency in the claim of physical superiority.

 PhillyT wrote:
Yet we have at least one instance where a couple of Custodes were able to contain a Primarch.

Where is that? And we have at least one instance of a Grey Knight soloing a Primarch.

 PhillyT wrote:
The fluff is clear that both TW and Custodes are superior physically to geneseed produced SM. Regarding whatever built in weakness you are referring to, I don't know.

I don't think the fluff is that clear. It's been said in Blood Games that a fight between a Space Marine and a Custodian would be too close to bet on. The processes used to create Space Marines during the Great Crusade caused physical and mental weaknesses among the Marines, theorized to the cause of so many falling, Guilliman fixed this in the Codex Astartes.
We can look at other individual cases, but that just shows individual skill.

Abnett's one off comment doesn't necessarily disregard the comments in the fluff or the actions in First Heretic where custodes actually crush astartes.

It comes back to the point made time and time again that custodes don't fight like marines. They are single combatants and body guards, not trained for squad or army tactics.

When expanded up to company level combats, they don't do that great and are likely just the same.

As far as the custodes versus primarchs, wasn't it Valindor who beat Horus in a duel?

 PhillyT wrote:
Abnett's one off comment doesn't necessarily disregard the comments in the fluff or the actions in First Heretic where custodes actually crush astartes.

I think it does, as it's a general statement, compared to specific individual fighters. What about when a naked Space Marine ripped out the heart of a full armed and armoured Custodian in the Outcast Dead?
Clearly it's dependent on the skill of the individual.

 PhillyT wrote:
It comes back to the point made time and time again that custodes don't fight like marines. They are single combatants and body guards, not trained for squad or army tactics.

I never understood this, because body guards would be pretty useless if they couldn't actually work in tandem.

 PhillyT wrote:
As far as the custodes versus primarchs, wasn't it Valindor who beat Horus in a duel?

Not that I've ever seen proven with a source.

All it says in the Abnett example is the person wouldn't want to place a bet. It is a general statement, but by the same token we are specifically told that both TW and Custodes are larger and stronger than astartes for the reasons already mentioned.

As far as the bodyguard thing, I believe the constant claim is similar to the old claims made by the greeks and Romans concerning the various "barbarians" they faced. While Greeks, and especially Romans, fought as a unit, barbarians were individual combatants. One on one they were very dangerous, but when fighting as part of a unit, they were overcome.

I can't recall the book, but astartes are referred to as wolves (pack hunters) while Custodes are lions (individual hunters). I am sure Custodes are capable of small unit tactics, they do that all the time, but when it comes to company and chapter level actions, that isn't really their bag.

 PhillyT wrote:
Yet we have at least one instance where a couple of Custodes were able to contain a Primarch.

Where?

Also, Grey Knights are probably overall better than Custodians.

We see how well the Custodians deal with psykers in A Thousand Sons.

Not well at all.

well didn't Luther beat the Lion in single combat? or is there more context to their fight?

LightKing wrote:
well didn't Luther beat the Lion in single combat? or is there more context to their fight?

Luther glutting on the power of Chaos making him a miniature Horus is the context to the fight.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

LightKing wrote:
well didn't Luther beat the Lion in single combat? or is there more context to their fight?

Luther glutting on the power of Chaos making him a miniature Horus is the context to the fight.

so without chaos luther would of had no chance against lion?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Yet we have at least one instance where a couple of Custodes were able to contain a Primarch.

Where?

Also, Grey Knights are probably overall better than Custodians.

We see how well the Custodians deal with psykers in A Thousand Sons.

Not well at all.

Didn't they kill well over their number in Thousand Sons?

I am also not really a buyer in terms of the new Grey Knight book putting them head and shoulders above all other Astartes.

 PhillyT wrote:

Didn't they kill well over their number in Thousand Sons?

I am also not really a buyer in terms of the new Grey Knight book putting them head and shoulders above all other Astartes.

We surely don't see it.

The only Custodian we see really doing well is Valdor, the strongest Custodian, who is surrounded by his honor guard and hanging out with Leman Russ.

A single Thousand Sons captain casually killed four of them with a single gesture and actually remarked that Custodians aren't as tough as he thought they'd be.

As for you not being a buyer of the new GK book putting them head and shoulders above all other Astartes, I don't care. That's what the fluff says. Why shouldn't it? They're better-equipped Marines who also happen to be competent psykers. It would be ludicrous to think they wouldn't be more powerful on average.

Yeah but aren't the captains more powerful than a normal thousand son?

 PhillyT wrote:
Yeah but aren't the captains more powerful than a normal thousand son?

Sure, but it does show that Custodians have no special defense against psykers.

The average Grey Knight isn't that powerful but what advantages does a Custodian have over the Grey Knight? The strength advantage is completely negated by hammerhand, and the Grey Knight is even better-equipped than the Custodian.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's a group of renegade TW that are in a defensible position that kill 4 or 5 times their number in Astartes before being completely wiped out.

Given standard military tactics, that's not bad, but not zomg-great, either. Defending a position is always much easier than assaulting one.

Uhh no. They survive.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Yeah but aren't the captains more powerful than a normal thousand son?

Sure, but it does show that Custodians have no special defense against psykers.

The average Grey Knight isn't that powerful but what advantages does a Custodian have over the Grey Knight? The strength advantage is completely negated by hammerhand, and the Grey Knight is even better-equipped than the Custodian.

Grey knight equipment isn't better than Custodes. It is the same. As far as the psychic route, an individual Grey Knight barely registers as a psychic. They are a low level power who are taught to focus their power with their brothers to achieve a tangible effect. I wouldn't think they could do much other than charge their force weapon in a fight with a Custodes one on one.

what about Pre-Heresy Horus vs. Current 40k Abaddon

that would be a great fight....

Fluff incarnation of Abaddon? Abaddon as the chosen of chaos.

Chaos Horus versus Chaos Abaddon, Horus by a wide margin.

but doesn't Abaddon have a negative view of Horus..... i mean he probably thinks he is superior to Horus during the 13th black crusade seeing as he achieved much more then Horus did


a chaos abaddon would beat a non chaos horus

both chaos powered,yeah horus would win

Yeah, as the supped up chosen, Abaddon would beat an unpowered Horus. I mean didn't The Lion struggle against his Chaos infused Foster father?