Everyone loves dem "best threads".
Was reading the recent DE codex and about Lilieth and her hand to hand combat prowess. Lucius was also mentioned in the book, where he takes a trip to Commorragh with Fabius Bile and fights in the arenas.
Leaving aside the ruleset (since I think someone math-hammered it out a while ago and Abaddon was the beat stick king) who do think is the best one Vs one fighter in 40k?
Can go back to HH times too with Servetar/Corswain etc but no primarchs. Not necessarily talking about a duel either, I mean 1 to 1 to the death.
I would probably put my money on an eldar. In a duel, fighters with speed and skills have a adventage (which is the opposite on a battlefield were manoeuvrability in close combat is limited by other fighters). Since they are nearly as tall as Space Marine, they have a pretty good reach. Their weapons tend to be of better quality too. I would probably go for Lilieth, Azurmen, Jain Zhar or Karandras. Crowe and Licius would be rather safe bets too. Ghazkull is perhaps the only ork with the staying power to pull a win, but I would not count on him. Callidus and eversor would be great choice, but I think they would like duelling experience.
PS: if you remove the Primarchs, I would also remove greater deamons, Deamon Prince C'tans and Avatars who are of similar if not greater power level.
My hat goes out to mephiston. Fast as an eldar, strong as a carnefex, and even without psychic powers he can tear through an ork horde, unarmed and unarmored as well. He has torn apart a fex barehanded, and including psychic abilities it just gets so much better.
Thatguyhsagun wrote: My hat goes out to mephiston. Fast as an eldar, strong as a carnefex, and even without psychic powers he can tear through an ork horde, unarmed and unarmored as well. He has torn apart a fex barehanded, and including psychic abilities it just gets so much better.
A psyker is never without his psychic abilities. I think those stories of defeating an Ork Horde butt naked and killing Carnifexes with his bare hands involved some psychic shenanigans on his part.
The thread title says "one on one fighter" not fencer or duelist or swordsman or anything like that so I'm going to go with someone like Cypher, Maugan Ra, Iryllith, Nightspear, Fuegan, Farsight, Vect, Snikrot, Creed/Marbo. Basically anyone smart enough to bring a gun to a knife fight and just dirty/kunnin/desperate/sneaky/quick/long range enough to get the drop on the opponent and murder them before they can attack back.
As for who, out of the options, would win, it depends on environment/circumstance. Planet cueball where Farsight gets to deepstrike and the enemy has no idea he's coming? He wins. Jungle world? Snikrot and Marbo duke it out and bomb each other's hiding places to see who is the real apex predator. A shelled out city with a nightmare myriad of cover and fire lanes? Illic or Ra guns down his opponent with ruthless precision. Fuegan would be best assaulting a fortress where his enemy feels he is safest. Cypher would infiltrate the same fortress and the bodyguards would never even know he was their till they found their warlord's corpse. Vect would just make a deal with you then shoot you in the back.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and duh, the Vindicare assassin. Turbopenetrator cares not where you hide. It will find you, and it will kill you.
I do not know who is exactly the best at 1 at 1 combat, but I guess it would be one of champions of Khorne. Probably Kharn. And before any of your tries to argue, champions of Khorne spits on your psychic powers. As in one audio drama his perks allowed to ignore grey knights psychic outburst so in any other combat psykers would be only at disadvantage since they will not be used to fight fairly. Furthemore we could look into ''Skulltaker'' and his skill at combat too. Khorne has many elite champions and few of them every find stronger opponent them themselves. After champions of Khorne we might consider necron lords who in lore often just out class anyone engaging them. Even though, they trade immunity to warp to superior technology.
I don't know about 'best', but Ephrael Stern survived for months in the Commoragh fighting pits and was so good that the archons actually believed she was a Dark Eldar simply because of a helmet, while otherwise dressing much like the other Wyches and Succubae.
Then one day, she got a dose of optimism and just walked out of there, casually.
Ephrael Stern is not a psyker, an assassin or otherwise physically enhanced. Just a Sororitas Seraphim with some extra knowledge.
ahzek wrote: I guess also the nids could create the ultimate hand to hand creature
The Swarmlord is pretty lethal with the combination of the Bonesabres (which specialize in cutting through protective energy fields), ridiculous reflexes and psychic power.
A Dimachaeron is also probably pretty horrible to fight one on one no matter who you are, being a ninja gladiator Tyrannosaurus of sorts...
As mentioned above though, perhaps it is best to leave these sorts of monsters (Tyranids, Avatars, Greater Daemons etc) at home for this.
Lucius the Eternal. A master swordsman that held his own against Fulgrim (almost). Plus if anyone is better than him, they still lose as he then possesses their body!
Poly Ranger wrote: Lucius the Eternal. A master swordsman that held his own against Fulgrim (almost). Plus if anyone is better than him, they still lose as he then possesses their body!
Aye, but was also knocked down within seconds in the sparring cages after Loken punched him in the face.
True, but in the post heresy, to the death, he auto-wins due to his possession ability.
There was a thread about if it was really possible to kill lucius a while back. I've just thought - if you do kill him... fly yourself into a star - he isn't coming back from that lol!
Do you think if a greater champion of slaanesh killed lucius (a keeper of secrets say, or Abbadon (being a champion of all)), would lucius then possess them?
In terms of Space Marines, I believe the most legendary fighter in the history that didn't also turn to Chaos was Sigismund, of the Imperial Fist. Dude was kind of a bad-ass.
Fluff-wise, probably Abaddon. I doubt even Vect could dent Abaddon's plot armor.
Poly Ranger wrote: Lucius the Eternal. A master swordsman that held his own against Fulgrim (almost). Plus if anyone is better than him, they still lose as he then possesses their body!
Aye, but was also knocked down within seconds in the sparring cages after Loken punched him in the face.
They later rematched, and Lucius smashed his face in.
Personally I would say Abbadon, ten thousand years of cracking skulls and he still isn't dead.
You didn't leave out Empy during the Crusade.
He'd literally squash Abaddon or Swarmy like a bug. More like a bacterial cell really.
You didn't leave out the C'tan either.
Abaddon- He has been around causing havoc during and since the Horus Herresy. He killed a Horus clone to found the Black Legion. And he snapped the World Breaker like a twig. Is an all around bad ass that never dies.
Ragnar is good no doubt but he is not the best. Arjac Rockfist is something.
As for Lucius posessings someone there is a way around that. If I recall if the person who kills Lucius feels pride he becomes a victim of his pride and starts to change. What if Lucis gets wasted by a Dreadnought or a Necron? Someone with 0 feelings. He dies?
Drazar and Lelith are deadly and very fast.
Draigo because whoever can afford to carve his name on Mortarion's heart and live and keep walking around kicking Chaos deserves a mention somewhere.
This will be a little off topic.but the Lucius possession shtick got me thinking.
I think the Tyranids would be the best bet at taking him out. I don't believe the hive mind feels emotions like pride or self satisfaction.
the Necrons could have been a contender, but with the new background, anyone in their army with the skill to kill him actually has emotions. Then again, do Necrons have souls? They traded those off for immortality. So, maybe that gives them a loophole to exploit.
We had a discussion one who would be able to kill Lucius and that would be Kharn. He doesn't care who he kills as long as he kills and he won't even remember because he needs a kill counter to remember how many he has killed.
Abaddon got son'd in single combat by Eldrad during either the iirc 13th Crusade or Gothic War, and had to (literally) be teleported away by the Chaos Gods to avoid being killed.
He's disqualified.
Still throwing my lot in with the guy who eats Daemon Primarchs.
Also, don't forget the Senior de la Horda and Calgar. Calgar whooped the Swarmlord's ass in single combat the last time they fought. How many people in the Galaxy can claim that feat for themselves?
Lucius was 'killed' by Nykona Sharrowkin who pwned him twice, so Sharrowkin has to go above Lucius. But yeah, I can't think of anyone with more OTT fluff than Draigo, so my vote goes to him.
Mr Morden wrote: Dark Eldar like Lileth tend to prelong fights as they usually can't even conceive of being beaten.
Depends on if this thread is intending to include immortals or just mortals really?
Once you start on "anything" you get the Deamon Primarchs and the C'tan involved
OP said no primarchs [assuming that also means daemon primarchs]. Anyway, even if it did Draigo has beaten at least one. I'm assuming it's mortals only although OP didn't specify.
Mr Nobody wrote: What about the swarmlord? He had both the strength and intelligence to thoroughly beat Marneus Calgar.
When Calgar got to fight Swarmy one on one he defeated him with his bare hands. On Macragge the Swarmlord had Calgar dog piled with his bodyguard before moving in himself.
Would have thought Valdor Constantin, commander of the Adeptus Custodes back when the Big E wasn't chairbound, would be a pretty strong contender. He sounded pretty killy.
You mean like the same Constantine that was almost killed by Phosis T'kar the Thousand Sons captain on Prospero?(He stopped himself, Knowing he could crush him in an instant)
Does the Eldar Avatar count, or is he disqualified because he takes over / possess an Eldar males body? TT he's a beast in CC and he's surely up there with Daemons in terms of power because that's basically what he is, a good(ish) Eldar daemon.
How does the fluff show him performing against the best that the 40k universe has to offer?
Tuska the daemon-killa. Basically immortal due to khorne recognising he's a badass. How many other characters go to daemon worlds just for a good scrap!
Furyou Miko wrote: Phosis T'kar wasn't exactly shabby himself. He was the most powerful telekinetic in the Imperium, short of the Emperor himself, after all.
Magnus was the best Telekine barring the Emperor, Not Phosis T'kar, Since Magnus literally founded each 1K Sons Templi/Discipline himself and that's why he's positioned above every Magister Templi but below The Emperor in the Thousand Sons' cult hierarchy.
BobNT wrote: Does the Eldar Avatar count, or is he disqualified because he takes over / possess an Eldar males body? TT he's a beast in CC and he's surely up there with Daemons in terms of power because that's basically what he is, a good(ish) Eldar daemon.
How does the fluff show him performing against the best that the 40k universe has to offer?
(who is absolutely the same Kais from that awful Firewarrior game something)
BlaxicanX wrote: Also, don't forget the Senior de la Horda and Calgar. Calgar whooped the Swarmlord's ass in single combat the last time they fought. How many people in the Galaxy can claim that feat for themselves?
Marneus Calgar wrote that story himself, as evidenced by the ridiculous nature of any of his stories from that book, with self-contractions that are intended to make him look better but just prove that it never happened. The best example is when he fights the Avatar; the text specifically states that Terminator armour is absolutely useless against the Avatar's strikes, and that their thunderhammers can't even scratch it. Calgar proceeds to catch this blade in his Terminator-armoured hand, then kill the Avatar with a single punch from a powerfist which is generally regarded as being inferior to a thunderhammer in the lore. His unit entry describing how he has an entire library dedicated to his deeds, each book filled with more than the sum of the feats of any other Space Marine hero, is even more telling - Marneus Calgar writes fanfiction about himself.
Draigo. He defeats daemon primarchs with ease. He trolls the Realm of Chaos solo and the Chaos gods can't even touch him. He's easily the most powerful character in the entire setting after the Emperor. If he had been on the Vengeful Spirit the Emperor would still be walking.
ThePrimordial wrote: You didn't leave out Empy during the Crusade.
He'd literally squash Abaddon or Swarmy like a bug. More like a bacterial cell really.
You didn't leave out the C'tan either.
There was one ork that won emps. Only Horus's heroic intervention saved him.
(who is absolutely the same Kais from that awful Firewarrior game something)
BlaxicanX wrote: Also, don't forget the Senior de la Horda and Calgar. Calgar whooped the Swarmlord's ass in single combat the last time they fought. How many people in the Galaxy can claim that feat for themselves?
Marneus Calgar wrote that story himself, as evidenced by the ridiculous nature of any of his stories from that book, with self-contractions that are intended to make him look better but just prove that it never happened. The best example is when he fights the Avatar; the text specifically states that Terminator armour is absolutely useless against the Avatar's strikes, and that their thunderhammers can't even scratch it. Calgar proceeds to catch this blade in his Terminator-armoured hand, then kill the Avatar with a single punch from a powerfist which is generally regarded as being inferior to a thunderhammer in the lore. His unit entry describing how he has an entire library dedicated to his deeds, each book filled with more than the sum of the feats of any other Space Marine hero, is even more telling - Marneus Calgar writes fanfiction about himself.
He caught it with his hands, both of which are sheathed in power fists. So he caught it with his powerfists.
I don't see the contradiction there. There is a precedent within the fluff of power weapons being able to parry the Avatar's blows, probably because of their power-fields.
Yarrick. If he can't run you over with a Baneblade, he'll take you in close combat, and we know the guy still keeps coming, even if you lop off an arm or poke out an eye
(who is absolutely the same Kais from that awful Firewarrior game something)
BlaxicanX wrote: Also, don't forget the Senior de la Horda and Calgar. Calgar whooped the Swarmlord's ass in single combat the last time they fought. How many people in the Galaxy can claim that feat for themselves?
Marneus Calgar wrote that story himself, as evidenced by the ridiculous nature of any of his stories from that book, with self-contractions that are intended to make him look better but just prove that it never happened. The best example is when he fights the Avatar; the text specifically states that Terminator armour is absolutely useless against the Avatar's strikes, and that their thunderhammers can't even scratch it. Calgar proceeds to catch this blade in his Terminator-armoured hand, then kill the Avatar with a single punch from a powerfist which is generally regarded as being inferior to a thunderhammer in the lore. His unit entry describing how he has an entire library dedicated to his deeds, each book filled with more than the sum of the feats of any other Space Marine hero, is even more telling - Marneus Calgar writes fanfiction about himself.
He caught it with his hands, both of which are sheathed in power fists. So he caught it with his powerfists.
I don't see the contradiction there. There is a precedent within the fluff of power weapons being able to parry the Avatar's blows, probably because of their power-fields.
They also aren't just powerfists, they are the gauntlets of ultramar and are rumoured to be indestructible (the adamantine shell surrounding them has never been penetrated to inspect the inner workings of the fists)
The Gauntlets of Ultramar are incredibly powerful chaos artifacts from the Age of Strife. They're probably specifically spelled to be effective against Avatars.
Also, Frozen - have you read the Firewarrior book? Much better.
Never had Asurmen lose a challenge for me so ill stick with him. A demi god of war in his own right. Jain Zar is pretty beast too, but an enemy IC with an invo and an ap2 weapon would probably take her down. Asurmen doesn't have problem with a 4++ and his dire sword. Fluffwise he trained the phoenix lords and they're some of the greatest warriors in game
Redseer wrote: Never had Asurmen lose a challenge for me so ill stick with him. A demi god of war in his own right. Jain Zar is pretty beast too, but an enemy IC with an invo and an ap2 weapon would probably take her down. Asurmen doesn't have problem with a 4++ and his dire sword. Fluffwise he trained the phoenix lords and they're some of the greatest warriors in game
I think some spacemarine hero like draigo or kalgar or something would win because of their plot armor! I would say Ghaz becos !!!! I like him and his awesome! He would just need to katch someon in he's pk and snap youre dead no mather hou fast and smart you are ,one mistake one second and done I think it'd be more fun if we would pick da best of each race,chapter,clan or world and slam em all in one place to see who survie in mass meat grinder!
PrehistoricUFO wrote: Calgar did exceptionally well against the Swarmlord in hand to hand.
Oh wait . . .
Wait for what? Calgar to drop in, slip off his gauntlets and beat the cheek out of you with his bare hands?
993.M41 The Kraken Slain
The Ultramarines quash a rebellion on the industrial world of Ichar IV, only to find themselves at the forefront of a desperate defence against Hive Fleet Kraken. In a replay of history, Marneus Calgar, having narrowly escaped death at the hands of the Swarmlord during their confrontation on Macragge, faces the reincarnation of the same beast on the blood-soaked fields. This time, however, Calgar triumphs, slaying the beast with his bare hands.
I'm gonna not choose Calgar, Abaddon and Eldrad cause they're fluff makes them out to be stupidly strong.
I'll go with Kharn the Betrayer like some others and throw in Lelith Hesperax and Drazhar for their speed and ruthlessness and Vargard Obyron for his skill, resilience and durability as well.
PrehistoricUFO wrote: Calgar did exceptionally well against the Swarmlord in hand to hand.
Oh wait . . .
Wait for what? Calgar to drop in, slip off his gauntlets and beat the cheek out of you with his bare hands?
993.M41 The Kraken Slain
The Ultramarines quash a rebellion on the industrial world of Ichar IV, only to find themselves at the forefront of a desperate defence against Hive Fleet Kraken. In a replay of history, Marneus Calgar, having narrowly escaped death at the hands of the Swarmlord during their confrontation on Macragge, faces the reincarnation of the same beast on the blood-soaked fields. This time, however, Calgar triumphs, slaying the beast with his bare hands.
This is hands down the most hilarious fluff ever written. You really would have thought that the writer would have at least READ the previously written snippet about calgars run in with the swarm lord.... You know, considering he no longer has hands, let alone bare hands.
tommse wrote: I'd throw in Asterion Moloc. The dudes has been bred to hunt down Space Marines. He'd better be a good fighter to get his jib done.
maybe against another marine, but if he is bred to fight marines and thats his job, he would be befuddled by most of the tactics other races would utilize. No idea how to catch up with the eldar, how to compensate for the sheer brutality of the ork, those kinds of things. He would adapt for sure, but depending on how long it takes he may be too late.
It would depend on the race and the writer's perspective.
Space Marines (40k): Many chapter masters would be up there. I'm gonna give to Tyberos of the Carcharadons Astra, due to his Chapter's brutal reputation. Plus, the guy has Lightning Claws with barbs, and Assassin's Creed Hidden Blade style Chainfists.
Blood Angels: Mephiston or the Sanguinor (the dude single handedly defeats Bloodthirsters like Sanguinius did)
Space Wolves: Logan or Bjorn.
Dark Angels: Azrael
Grey Knights: Draigo or Crowe (Crowe fought Skulltaker to a standstill).
Great Crusade: Sigismund. He was unrivalled among the Legions as a duelist. At the Siege of Terra he sought out a duel with Abaddon. And Abaddon didn't show. AND Sigismund then called Abaddon out on it. That takes balls of adamantium.
Chaos Space Marines: Abaddon is pretty damn powerful with Drachnyen and the Talon. Kharn has utter ferocity and strength. Lucius has speed and skill beyond compare.
IG: N/A
Sisters of Battle: St Celestine, being the only one capable of going toe to toe witb the big guys.
Inquisition: N/A
Assassins: Really any bar Vindicare. Eversor would be like a champion of Khorne. Callidus is skilled and has a C'tan Phase Sword. Culexus... well, it kicks ass.
Orks: Ghazghkul
Tau: Farsight, if anyone
Eldar: Jain Zar or Karandras. Followed by Fuegan and Asurmen, then Maugan Ra and Barrahoth and then Prince Yriel if only for the Spear of Twilight.
Dark Eldar: Some many to choose, but would have to go for Lilith here.
Necrons: Varguard Oberyon as he is most suited to melee.
Tyranids: Swarmlord rips through force fields, powerful psyker on par with Chief Librarians and top level sorcerors plus massive physical strength, speed and skill. Close second is deathleaper who is lightning cfast and can literally vanish before one's eyes.
Chaos Daemons: Many to choose from. Anggrath the Unbound would be obvious choice but apparently banned so mext would be Skarbrand. Who has more balls that Sigismund did. Skarbrand just carries around a hull truckful of adamantium, planet-sized cahones. He challenged Khorne to a fight.
After that you could argue either Skulltaker or Ka'Bandha as some sources say Ka'Bandha is the most powerful Bloodthirster yet got his ass kicked by Sanguinius (twice) and the Sanguinor most recently.
BlaxicanX wrote: Not counting the best dudes, Lucius is probably the best fighter. Comparing him to at least Kharn, he has vastly more impressive combat feats.
but Kharn never misses!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iron_Captain wrote: Of all mortals, Drazhar is likely the most deadly one on one fighter.
PrehistoricUFO wrote: Calgar did exceptionally well against the Swarmlord in hand to hand.
Oh wait . . .
Wait for what? Calgar to drop in, slip off his gauntlets and beat the cheek out of you with his bare hands?
993.M41 The Kraken Slain
The Ultramarines quash a rebellion on the industrial world of Ichar IV, only to find themselves at the forefront of a desperate defence against Hive Fleet Kraken. In a replay of history, Marneus Calgar, having narrowly escaped death at the hands of the Swarmlord during their confrontation on Macragge, faces the reincarnation of the same beast on the blood-soaked fields. This time, however, Calgar triumphs, slaying the beast with his bare hands.
This is hands down the most hilarious fluff ever written. You really would have thought that the writer would have at least READ the previously written snippet about calgars run in with the swarm lord.... You know, considering he no longer has hands, let alone bare hands.
Not only that, the Swarmlord has all the experience of all its former incarnations. If it beat him with easy the first time it is simply not possible for it to lose to the same foe a second time.
BlaxicanX wrote: Not counting the best dudes, Lucius is probably the best fighter. Comparing him to at least Kharn, he has vastly more impressive combat feats.
Lucius has been beat loads times, just look at his armour
I think Kharn would beat Lucius pretty easily, their styles of combat are too different. One fights with skill and finesse, the other fight with strength and brutality, and even with that Kharn is no slouch by any means. I think Tarvitz and Loken showed us this best.
Not only that, the Swarmlord has all the experience of all its former incarnations. If it beat him with easy the first time it is simply not possible for it to lose to the same foe a second time.
Unless Calgon did the unthinkable and scrapped the Codex
Orblivion wrote:Ahriman anyone? I think he could be a very strong contender.
He's pretty powerful - his fighting skills are up there with the majority of combat lords - but he's too reliant on boosts from exterior sources to really count as a fighter. More of an eldritch knight really.
BlaxicanX wrote: Not counting the best dudes, Lucius is probably the best fighter. Comparing him to at least Kharn, he has vastly more impressive combat feats.
Lucius has been beat loads times, just look at his armour
I think Kharn would beat Lucius pretty easily, their styles of combat are too different. One fights with skill and finesse, the other fight with strength and brutality, and even with that Kharn is no slouch by any means. I think Tarvitz and Loken showed us this best.
Not only that, the Swarmlord has all the experience of all its former incarnations. If it beat him with easy the first time it is simply not possible for it to lose to the same foe a second time.
Unless Calgon did the unthinkable and scrapped the Codex
That is only in terms of strategy. In one on one combat the Swarmlord knows everything he can do. How he moves, his strength, speed and skill.
BlaxicanX wrote: Not counting the best dudes, Lucius is probably the best fighter. Comparing him to at least Kharn, he has vastly more impressive combat feats.
Lucius has been beat loads times, just look at his armour
I think Kharn would beat Lucius pretty easily, their styles of combat are too different. One fights with skill and finesse, the other fight with strength and brutality, and even with that Kharn is no slouch by any means. I think Tarvitz and Loken showed us this best.
Not only that, the Swarmlord has all the experience of all its former incarnations. If it beat him with easy the first time it is simply not possible for it to lose to the same foe a second time.
Unless Calgon did the unthinkable and scrapped the Codex
That is only in terms of strategy. In one on one combat the Swarmlord knows everything he can do. How he moves, his strength, speed and skill.
BlaxicanX wrote: Not counting the best dudes, Lucius is probably the best fighter. Comparing him to at least Kharn, he has vastly more impressive combat feats.
Lucius has been beat loads times, just look at his armour
I think Kharn would beat Lucius pretty easily, their styles of combat are too different. One fights with skill and finesse, the other fight with strength and brutality, and even with that Kharn is no slouch by any means. I think Tarvitz and Loken showed us this best.
Not only that, the Swarmlord has all the experience of all its former incarnations. If it beat him with easy the first time it is simply not possible for it to lose to the same foe a second time.
Unless Calgon did the unthinkable and scrapped the Codex
That is only in terms of strategy. In one on one combat the Swarmlord knows everything he can do. How he moves, his strength, speed and skill.
Well, he didn't know that time Calgon beat him
Which is why its a terrible piece of fluff meant to make PapaSmurf seem cool. Not to mention that story was first told in some random White Dwarf.f
Well the initial encounter between the swarmlord and Calgar wasn't a one vs one. According to the 6th Ed Tyranid dex
... their deaths did more than delay the Space Marines, but it would prove enough, Calgar would have to face the Swarmlord and its bodyguards alone.
Calgar fought like a hero of legend, but there were simply to many foes and he was finally laid low, his body rent and torn. Calgars last strength was expended in mortal combat with the swarmlord itself.
From the 5th ed Codex
Then the Swarmlord bellowed a challenge to Calgar and, leading a body guard of Tyrant Guard and Tyranid Warriors, the Hive Tyrant plunged into the fray
And on their encounter on Ichar IV
In a replay of history , Marneus Calgar faced none other than the Swarmlord - a reincarnation of the same beast that laid him low on Mcgragge - during the final battle for Ichar IV. This time however, it would be Calgar who emerged triumphant, slaying the beast in an epic duel.
So it's from the Tyranid codex and not a random White Dwarf
Pilau Rice wrote: Well the initial encounter between the swarmlord and Calgar wasn't a one vs one. According to the 6th Ed Tyranid dex
... their deaths did more than delay the Space Marines, but it would prove enough, Calgar would have to face the Swarmlord and its bodyguards alone.
Calgar fought like a hero of legend, but there were simply to many foes and he was finally laid low, his body rent and torn. Calgars last strength was expended in mortal combat with the swarmlord itself.
And on their encounter on Ichar IV
In a replay of history , Marneus Calgar faced none other than the Swarmlord - a reincarnation of the same beast that laid him low on Mcgragge - during the final battle for Ichar IV. This time however, it would be Calgar who emerged triumphant, slaying the beast in an epic duel.
So it's from the Tyranid codex and not a random White Dwarf
I think he was talking about how they changed the original fluff from the WD (which came out first)
So it's from the Tyranid codex and not a random White Dwarf
I think he was talking about how they changed the original fluff from the WD (which came out first)
It might have been from a random WD initially, but it's backed up by the 6th ed codex. The 5th ed codex says how Calgar rallies the defenders and casts the tyranids for everymore from this world, but doesn't mention the encounter with the Swarmlord.
The Gauntlets really are just powerfists. Regardless of whether or not they are vastly superior to Terminator armour (what), they still killed the Avatar with a single strike where thunderhammers were entirely useless. There's a very large gap between "useless" and "instant death", meaning that the Gauntlets of Ultramar are not only tougher than Terminator armour, but an order of magnitude more powerful than thunderhammers. It's just dumb, as is the rest of The Battle for Orar's Sepulchre, wherein the Eldar seem to think that they are Tyranids, because they start using suicidal swarm tactics on gun nests and then summon the Avatar when this doesn't work.
The fluff on the Gauntlets is bad, too - they're powerfists with bolters in them, but this is apparently a marvel of technology that can't be replicated because Marneus Calgar. They used to belong to a Champion of Chaos, but it's okay because Marneus Calgar. Also, they used to belong to the Primarch (who probably couldn't fit in them, and I'm pretty sure has never been shown to use them or even own them), because Marneus Calgar.
Marneus Calgar is smarter, stronger, and just plain better than everyone else in the galaxy, as well as hundreds of times more heroic and successful than any other Space Marine because Marneus Calgar. Really the only explanation is that either Calgar or some other Ultramarine writes fanfiction about him, twisting history and making up events to make him out to be much better than he is. It's likely the same with Draigo, the Grey Knights making up cool stories of Pyrrhic struggles and infinite virtue rather than accepting that he's just stuck in the Warp.
The Swarmlord fight is another good example of why Calgar's stories are just plain silly. The thing can parry projectiles from midair and its blades made his armour, once again, "useless". How did it manage to only wound him, with such preternatural speed, skill, reflexes and very large, very sharp blades?
Calgar and Draigo are both plot armour taken to its worst extreme, however, Kais could absolutely beat them both up with the butt of his pulse rifle or that silly little sword he has.
I haven't read the Firewarrior book, but I don't really want to. Besides, I should keep the experience in its purest form in my mind; "Dese Impeweals are a deeewious ewenmy". Brilliant.
The fluff on the Gauntlets is bad, too - they're powerfists with bolters in them, but this is apparently a marvel of technology that can't be replicated because Marneus Calgar. They used to belong to a Champion of Chaos, but it's okay because Marneus Calgar. Also, they used to belong to the Primarch (who probably couldn't fit in them, and I'm pretty sure has never been shown to use them or even own them), because Marneus Calgar.
They cut off circulation so his hands balloon, he just needs to swing his arms about or point and pew pew
So it's from the Tyranid codex and not a random White Dwarf
I think he was talking about how they changed the original fluff from the WD (which came out first)
It might have been from a random WD initially, but it's backed up by the 6th ed codex. The 5th ed codex says how Calgar rallies the defenders and casts the tyranids for everymore from this world, but doesn't mention the encounter with the Swarmlord.
In the 5th Ed codex it was never stated he beat the Swarmlord in round 2. Then a WD said this bullgak story. They they reprinted it in the Codex. Still doesn't make it less bullgak because its official. Just look at Draigo. It was official but still considered bullgak by many.
Pilau Rice wrote: It's certainly bullgak, but alas, it's there, in both cases.
Then again, isn't the stuff in Codexes etc supposed to be propaganda for whatever side they talk about? Marines are ultra awesome in their own books but die like flies elsewhere. Guard make heroic sacrifices to stop the enemies of mankind, or die like flies. Eldar use their masterful divinations to stop threats against their race, or go in blind and die like flies. And so on.
So has Kharn. The difference is that Lucius has actually beaten people of note, whereas Kharn has not.
Deadshot wrote: Not only that, the Swarmlord has all the experience of all its former incarnations. If it beat him with easy the first time it is simply not possible for it to lose to the same foe a second time.
Don't see why this really matters. The Swarmlord's ability to absorb experience and learn from its previous encounters isn't unique in 40K. Most Mechanicum fighters of high enough rank have uploaded knowledge of every fighting style and dueling technique on record in the Imperium, as the novel Priests of Mars shows us.
And for that matter, the learning ability of the Swarmlord is overblown. "He learns from his past experiences" is unique for a race where 99% of its living creatures have a life-span of about 6 months max, but "learn from past experiences" is a uh... pretty standard occurrence for the rest of us.
Point is, it's nothing new. Space Marines have been beating the asses of Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes, many of whom have millions of years of warfare experience, since the fluff's inception. The Swarmlord getting son'd is nothing surprising.
Frozen Ocean wrote: The Gauntlets really are just powerfists. Regardless of whether or not they are vastly superior to Terminator armour (what), they still killed the Avatar with a single strike where thunderhammers were entirely useless.
A) Where was it stated that thunderhammer blows were just casually bouncing off the Avatar? B) Where was it stated that he knocked it's head off with a single punch?
So has Kharn. The difference is that Lucius has actually beaten people of note, whereas Kharn has not.
Deadshot wrote: Not only that, the Swarmlord has all the experience of all its former incarnations. If it beat him with easy the first time it is simply not possible for it to lose to the same foe a second time.
Don't see why this really matters. The Swarmlord's ability to absorb experience and learn from its previous encounters isn't unique in 40K. Most Mechanicum fighters of high enough rank have uploaded knowledge of every fighting style and dueling technique on record in the Imperium, as the novel Priests of Mars shows us.
And for that matter, the learning ability of the Swarmlord is overblown. "He learns from his past experiences" is unique for a race where 99% of its living creatures have a life-span of about 6 months max, but "learn from past experiences" is a uh... pretty standard occurrence for the rest of us.
Point is, it's nothing new. Space Marines have been beating the asses of Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes, many of whom have millions of years of warfare experience, since the fluff's inception. The Swarmlord getting son'd is nothing surprising.
Frozen Ocean wrote: The Gauntlets really are just powerfists. Regardless of whether or not they are vastly superior to Terminator armour (what), they still killed the Avatar with a single strike where thunderhammers were entirely useless.
A) Where was it stated that thunderhammer blows were just casually bouncing off the Avatar? B) Where was it stated that he knocked it's head off with a single punch?
Haven't read the story in years.
For the Swarmlord, its a slightly different thing. Sure, each member of the Imperium (of a suitable rank like Calgar) can learn and study to the best of his ability every bit of data and perfect it. But it will never come close to have access to every piece of information your race has ever gathered just by existing, not to mentioned being literally designed to win a battle or counter a foed. The Swarmlord is doesn't just learn from its losses, it learns from every single creature in the race at once across a dozen galaxies and billions of incarnations. It is the ultimate predator.
As for Avatar: from the 5th Ed Codex where it had a 2 page spread, as opposed to the codensed version in 6th.
Each irresistable sweep of the Avatar's flaming sword sundered armour, flesh and bone, leaving nought but unmoving bodies. Terminators of the 1st Company set upon the Avatar with power fist and thunder hammer, but their blows did little more than stagger it.
...
So it was that Calgar fell upon the Avatar before the other was aware of his presence, and smote the creature a dolorous and terrible blow. Bellowing with fury, the Avatar turned to face its new attacker. The first blow missed the Chapter Master by a hair's breadth. The second tore a great wound from his armour. A third drove deep into his shoulder, cleaving the pauldron and driving the Chapter Master to his knees. But the fourth, intended as a coup de grâce to sever Calgar's head from his shoulders, slammed it the armour palm of Calgar's left hand.
The armoured glove charred and warped as Calgar closed his grasp around the blade. No other gauntlet could have withstood that mighty blow nor the furious heat behind it. But the fabled Gauntlets of Ultramar are of older and sterner make, crafted with a skill and technology long lost to the race of Man. For a moment, mortal and god strove for control of the incandescent sword and in that moment the Avatar was defenceless. Rising up, Calgar struck with all his strength, bringing his other gauntlet around in a mighty arc. The Avatar roared in pain and fury as the power fist punched clean through the molten ichor of its torso. With a final bellow the Avatar exploded in a white-hot flash that showered cinders and moltern metal all around.
Frozen Ocean wrote: The Gauntlets really are just powerfists. Regardless of whether or not they are vastly superior to Terminator armour (what),
The Gauntlets of Ultramar are very tough. Nobody has even been able to open them to get a look inside, even then the Avatar managed to damage them.
Calgar himself is very strong.
THE SHIELD SHATTERED
Inspiration burnt through the Chapter Master’s mind. With
his honour guard storming forwards in his wake, Calgar
sprinted towards the malfunctioning Pylon, smashing his
way through the ranks of Necron Immortals that were
moving to protect it. The Chapter Master lashed out left
and right to pulverise xenos torsos and heads wherever he
struck, for a terrible wrath was roused within him, and his
resolve to reach the Gauss Pylon was all but unstoppable.
Jumping up onto the metallic base of the malfunctioning
Pylon, Calgar braced himself and heaved with both hands
at its crescent-shaped superstructure. Servos and pistons
whined in protest as the famed Gauntlets of Ultramar left
grooves in its living metal.
Teeth gritted and eyes screwed tight, the Chapter Master
pushed with everything he had, veins popping under
his close-cropped grey hair. He roared in pain with the
bone-breaking effort of his feat, but sure enough the
Pylon began to move on its bearings, its flaring gauss
beam crackling across the skies above the warring armies.
Slowly, inexorably, Calgar pushed the war engine’s crescent
back upon itself until its beam met the energy grid that
protected the floating necropolis.
It is no surprise he makes swiss cheese of the Avatar and beats extra-galactic alien tyrant weapon organisms to death with his bare hands.
Kaldor Draigo! Of course he would beat most heroes even on tabletop he would kick the crap out of all heroes and I say this with dread I hate the bastard!
I love all of you saying failbaddon Oh! I mean Abaddon.
Also if it came down to orks I think tuska the daemon killa would proably win vs most heroes. Hell he is supposed to fight titans/megatanks (and kick the crap out of Abaddon)
Deadshot wrote: For the Swarmlord, its a slightly different thing. Sure, each member of the Imperium (of a suitable rank like Calgar) can learn and study to the best of his ability every bit of data and perfect it. But it will never come close to have access to every piece of information your race has ever gathered just by existing, not to mentioned being literally designed to win a battle or counter a foed. The Swarmlord is doesn't just learn from its losses, it learns from every single creature in the race at once across a dozen galaxies and billions of incarnations. It is the ultimate predator.
Right, but again that's nothing new for most of the Galaxy. Most sentients learn from every encounter. As I said, there are Greater Daemons and Princes like Bela'kor who have combat experience that would make the entire Tyranid race look like children. But, knowledge isn't everything in a fight.
As for Avatar: from the 5th Ed Codex where it had a 2 page spread, as opposed to the codensed version in 6th.
Each irresistable sweep of the Avatar's flaming sword sundered armour, flesh and bone, leaving nought but unmoving bodies. Terminators of the 1st Company set upon the Avatar with power fist and thunder hammer, but their blows did little more than stagger it.
...
So it was that Calgar fell upon the Avatar before the other was aware of his presence, and smote the creature a dolorous and terrible blow. Bellowing with fury, the Avatar turned to face its new attacker. The first blow missed the Chapter Master by a hair's breadth. The second tore a great wound from his armour. A third drove deep into his shoulder, cleaving the pauldron and driving the Chapter Master to his knees. But the fourth, intended as a coup de grâce to sever Calgar's head from his shoulders, slammed it the armour palm of Calgar's left hand.
The armoured glove charred and warped as Calgar closed his grasp around the blade. No other gauntlet could have withstood that mighty blow nor the furious heat behind it. But the fabled Gauntlets of Ultramar are of older and sterner make, crafted with a skill and technology long lost to the race of Man. For a moment, mortal and god strove for control of the incandescent sword and in that moment the Avatar was defenceless. Rising up, Calgar struck with all his strength, bringing his other gauntlet around in a mighty arc. The Avatar roared in pain and fury as the power fist punched clean through the molten ichor of its torso. With a final bellow the Avatar exploded in a white-hot flash that showered cinders and moltern metal all around.
Heh, glorious.
I don't see how one can claim that the Gauntlets are "just powerfists" when the text explicitly states that they aren't, though. They seem to be DAoT tech.
Kaldor Draigo! Of course he would beat most heroes even on tabletop he would kick the crap out of all heroes and I say this with dread I hate the bastard!
I love all of you saying failbaddon Oh! I mean Abaddon.
Also if it came down to orks I think tuska the daemon killa would proably win vs most heroes. Hell he is supposed to fight titans/megatanks (and kick the crap out of Abaddon)
"Failbaddon" is overused and misunderstood. Each of his Crusades thus far has been a success in its primary objective. Which was not to seize Terra. That was just a nice bonus. For example, his first Crusade was simply to secure Drachn'yen and nothing more. The 12th was to grab Blackstone Fortresses which he did.
In terms of personal combat he is noted that with Drachn'yen "his power swells to inhuman levels." And if he can keep the Daemon Primarchs content, particularly Angron who would kill you as soon as look at you, he must be pretty damn powerful. Also not that his other weapon, the Talon of Horus, is a Primarch weapon. Not many other Special Characters can boast that. Azrael, Logan, Calgar, Dante. None of the other Chaos characters either, except Kharn who has Gorechild..
I don't see how one can claim that the Gauntlets are "just powerfists" when the text explicitly states that they aren't, though. They seem to be DAoT tech.
Codex: Space Marines, 3rd edition wrote:The Gauntlets of Ultramar are two mighty Power Fists with incorporated Bolters that were reclaimed from a fallen Chaos champion, slain during the Gamalia Reclusiam Massacre by the Primarch of the Ultramarines, Roboute Guilliman himself. No one has been able to penetrate the thick adamantine shell of the fists to study the workings inside.
So has Kharn. The difference is that Lucius has actually beaten people of note, whereas Kharn has not.
Who's Lucius beaten who has been truly noteworthy? Lord Commander Cyrius who is a nobody with no fluff outside of the Chaos Codex, I don't know of any body else.
Kharn might have been beaten, but has he been beaten to death on numerous occasions like Lucius has? He died a top a mountain of bodies at the siege of Terra where Lucius was off probably doing dastardly things to the population.
In the Heresy series so far the only thing that has beaten Kharn is a Landraiders sneak attack
Lucius is probably one of the most skilled, if not the most skilled, combatant in 40k. But skill doesn't always trump force and it's his arrogance that is his biggest flaw. That's what lets him down and is, imo, where Kharn is better. It's hard for a Child of Fulgrim to admit.
I don't see how one can claim that the Gauntlets are "just powerfists" when the text explicitly states that they aren't, though. They seem to be DAoT tech.
Codex: Space Marines, 3rd edition wrote:The Gauntlets of Ultramar are two mighty Power Fists with incorporated Bolters that were reclaimed from a fallen Chaos champion, slain during the Gamalia Reclusiam Massacre by the Primarch of the Ultramarines, Roboute Guilliman himself. No one has been able to penetrate the thick adamantine shell of the fists to study the workings inside.
My word, it's not hard to differentiate, yes they are powerfists, but saying the gauntlets are the same as any other powerfist is like saying a peugoet 206 and a buggati veyron are exactly the same as they are cars.
I'm going to give a bias answer and put a vote in for Venerable Captain Pellas Mir'San, commander of the Salamanders 2nd company.
Also known as "The Winter Blade", he is a previous Feast of Blades champion and famous duelist. (which is important here lol)
He has served the chapter as captain and or champion for over 180 years now, and wields the legendary power sword Cinder Edge
Cinder Edge - Cinder Edge is a master-crafted Power Blade forged by the hand of Pellas Mir'san. The blade was folded countless times in the fires of Nocturne's volcanic heat.
BladeTX wrote: Feast of Blades champion and famous duelist.
Trial of Blades, the Feast of Blades is exclusively for the descendants of Dorn. Sorry.
Needless to say, he'd win that too. Sorry.
Salamanders are documented to be of slightly slower reaction times when compared to other marines, so being the most capable Salamander in a blade duel isn't actually saying much
Besides this thread isn't for duels, it is for straight up combat between two combatants. So in most cases the swordsman in question would have to be EXTREMELY impressive to overcome all the other types of attacks that would be coming his way. For example Ahriman killed a Chaos Lord, 2 mutated marines, and 3 Sorcerers in "fewer than five beats of a human heart" in the Exile novel. Your Salamander would be dust before he could even think "I should dodge".
Codex: Space Marines, 3rd edition wrote:The Gauntlets of Ultramar are two mighty Power Fists with incorporated Bolters that were reclaimed from a fallen Chaos champion, slain during the Gamalia Reclusiam Massacre by the Primarch of the Ultramarines, Roboute Guilliman himself. No one has been able to penetrate the thick adamantine shell of the fists to study the workings inside.
The Post Right Above Yours wrote:No other gauntlet could have withstood that mighty blow nor the furious heat behind it. But the fabled Gauntlets of Ultramar are of older and sterner make, crafted with a skill and technology long lost to the race of Man.
I haven't read the Firewarrior book, but I don't really want to
I thought it was a very good read - but then I liked the game but not played it for a few months
It was a good read. Most of the game's problems revolved around game play decisions, such as turning Pulse Rifles into E-111 Blasters.
BlaxicanX wrote:
At least try.
Just because they're Chaos doesn't mean they can't be DAoT. Not sure why you're trying to argue with me. Warp Magic is just as much of a 'lost art' to the Imperium as super-metals.
Just because they're Chaos doesn't mean they can't be DAoT. Not sure why you're trying to argue with me. Warp Magic is just as much of a 'lost art' to the Imperium as super-metals.
Think he meant they had almost the same content and one was above the other, the second poster didnt even read through
Frozen Ocean wrote: The Gauntlets really are just powerfists. Regardless of whether or not they are vastly superior to Terminator armour (what), they still killed the Avatar with a single strike where thunderhammers were entirely useless. There's a very large gap between "useless" and "instant death", meaning that the Gauntlets of Ultramar are not only tougher than Terminator armour, but an order of magnitude more powerful than thunderhammers. It's just dumb, as is the rest of The Battle for Orar's Sepulchre, wherein the Eldar seem to think that they are Tyranids, because they start using suicidal swarm tactics on gun nests and then summon the Avatar when this doesn't work.
The fluff on the Gauntlets is bad, too - they're powerfists with bolters in them, but this is apparently a marvel of technology that can't be replicated because Marneus Calgar. They used to belong to a Champion of Chaos, but it's okay because Marneus Calgar. Also, they used to belong to the Primarch (who probably couldn't fit in them, and I'm pretty sure has never been shown to use them or even own them), because Marneus Calgar.
Marneus Calgar is smarter, stronger, and just plain better than everyone else in the galaxy, as well as hundreds of times more heroic and successful than any other Space Marine because Marneus Calgar. Really the only explanation is that either Calgar or some other Ultramarine writes fanfiction about him, twisting history and making up events to make him out to be much better than he is. It's likely the same with Draigo, the Grey Knights making up cool stories of Pyrrhic struggles and infinite virtue rather than accepting that he's just stuck in the Warp.
As I've said before, Marneus Calgar, apart from being the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines, moonlights as a Pimp. Thus, he is a Master at the martial art known as Pimp Hand.
Other Space Marines and, indeed, other Chapter Masters can wear Power-fists. Even Imperial Guardsmen can wear powerfists.
But none of them are Pimps, and so their mastery of Pimp Hand is found wanting.
Salamanders are documented to be of slightly slower reaction times when compared to other marines, so being the most capable Salamander in a blade duel isn't actually saying much
Besides this thread isn't for duels, it is for straight up combat between two combatants. So in most cases the swordsman in question would have to be EXTREMELY impressive to overcome all the other types of attacks that would be coming his way. For example Ahriman killed a Chaos Lord, 2 mutated marines, and 3 Sorcerers in "fewer than five beats of a human heart" in the Exile novel. Your Salamander would be dust before he could even think "I should dodge".
Well he is pretty impressive. Besides we all understand that we don't the settings of the "fight" that would occur between any two votes.
Ie. If a melee oriented and ranged combat oriented battle ensues a mile apart then the melee oriented individual would clearly stand no chance... etc
So this discussion is solely based on the individual rather that it's combat with anyone.
BlaxicanX wrote: Not counting the best dudes, Lucius is probably the best fighter. Comparing him to at least Kharn, he has vastly more impressive combat feats.
Like having a tough fight against Erebus. Who Kharn son'd so hard that he was bored doing it.
I guess the kind of situation and combat has a large bearing on this.
A fully kitted out tau commander in battlesuit would be able to outshoot many potential melee threats.
Psykers in the fluff can have nigh unlimited powers, which would make for some pretty one sided fights.
Overall, vs most opponents, I'd say a Bloodthirster would come out on top most of the time. Very capable in close combat, fast and resistant to psychic powers.
The problem with determining who is the 'best' from a fluff perspective is that in many of the stories the characters have plot armour, which grossly overpower them.
If the Gaunt's Ghost novels are to be believed for example, then the best one on one fighter in the galaxy would be a guardsman with a lasgun and a cloak.
Ciaphas Cain. He's the luckiest dude in the galaxy. If Abbaddon came after him, he'd run and trip on a missile launcher. The missile launcher would fire into a closeby building, dislodging some rubble. The rubble would fall into a conveniently placed Shadowsword with the top hatch open and ricochet around the inside. The ricochets would match perfectly the cadence of the Rites of Activation, pleasing the Machine Spirit enough that the Shadowsword would self activate and fire... which would of course hit Abby in the face.
Ciaphas is hailed as a hero and claims to have done it on purpose. Amasec is shared by everyone.
Later that evening, Ciaphas requisitions new underpants as his are now beyond recovery.
Typhus was the first to pop into my head. First off, he's a Nurglite Terminator, making a tough unit even tougher. He can wade through small-arms fire without so much a scratch, his Destroyer Hive can eat pretty much anything, he's a Psyker (albeit not the best), and his Scythe can rip you into pieces. That, and he's perhaps one of the most tenacious Chaos Characters because the amount of wars he survived are legendary, even to the Death Guard who's training is hinged entirely on being the toughest army in existence which is saying something.
BlaxicanX wrote: Not counting the best dudes, Lucius is probably the best fighter. Comparing him to at least Kharn, he has vastly more impressive combat feats.
Like having a tough fight against Erebus. Who Kharn son'd so hard that he was bored doing it.
Sure, and casually stomping Loken, who beat Kharn.
BlaxicanX wrote: Not counting the best dudes, Lucius is probably the best fighter. Comparing him to at least Kharn, he has vastly more impressive combat feats.
Like having a tough fight against Erebus. Who Kharn son'd so hard that he was bored doing it.
Sure, and casually stomping Loken, who beat Kharn.
BlaxicanX wrote: Not counting the best dudes, Lucius is probably the best fighter. Comparing him to at least Kharn, he has vastly more impressive combat feats.
Like having a tough fight against Erebus. Who Kharn son'd so hard that he was bored doing it.
Sure, and casually stomping Loken, who beat Kharn.
As of M41, Dak'ir the Super Sayain librarian. Who flew through space and cut a space-ship in half when he reached his FINAL FORM(!) after consuming the memories of a hundred Salamanders.
In M30, the Emperor, easily.
EDIT
But Dak'ir the Librarian would even kill Kharn- he's that absurdly strong and had to let his nemesis kill him to prevent Dak'ir from blowing up Nocturne from raw psyker power. His feats however include flying through space at hypersonic speeds and cutting a Chaos Battle-Barge in half, then flying/teleporting back down to Nocturne and tossing fireballs that vaporized people/parts of space marines, and wrestling a Daemon the size of a Kaiju while flying through the air and bodyslamming it to its death inside a Volcano.
While Kharn still has the Collar of Khorne, that doesn't protect him from having Dakir seize him by the collar itself and hurl him into space.
BlaxicanX wrote: Not counting the best dudes, Lucius is probably the best fighter. Comparing him to at least Kharn, he has vastly more impressive combat feats.
Like having a tough fight against Erebus. Who Kharn son'd so hard that he was bored doing it.
Sure, and casually stomping Loken, who beat Kharn.
BlaxicanX wrote: Not counting the best dudes, Lucius is probably the best fighter. Comparing him to at least Kharn, he has vastly more impressive combat feats.
Like having a tough fight against Erebus. Who Kharn son'd so hard that he was bored doing it.
Sure, and casually stomping Loken, who beat Kharn.
BlaxicanX wrote: Not counting the best dudes, Lucius is probably the best fighter. Comparing him to at least Kharn, he has vastly more impressive combat feats.
Like having a tough fight against Erebus. Who Kharn son'd so hard that he was bored doing it.
Sure, and casually stomping Loken, who beat Kharn.
When? In a sparring cage? Kharn doesn't try, it bores him and sees no point in sparring or arena matches or indeed any fight unless its to the death.
At Isstvaan? Loken speared on a Land Raider, doesn't count.
Put it this way. Erebus got beaten so bad he teleported away. He never saw one of the blows coming. Kharn could have killed him o the first strike but instead chose to toy with him and drag it for vengeance.
Of course he was the best blademaster by far. He could beat any non-Primarch among the legions. But is he by far the best 1v1 fighter? For example, could he beat the huge, Titan-sized Trygon that Hive Fleet Jormungandr used to rip through a whole titan legion and a fortress wall before being brought down by anti-orbital defences? Could he do it on a cold rainy night in Stoke?
And Lucius defeated the most skilled duelist in the Luna Wolves legion so fast that neither Loken nor anyone else in the room realized what had happened until seconds later.
Can Sigismund lift several thousand tonnes and dish out punches that would sunder a Titan? Does Sigismund fly at hypersonic speeds, or toss out psychic fire capable of vaporizing people? Or cut multi-kilometer space ships in half? Because if he doesn't, he isn't the best non-Primarch fighter in 40k. When asking this question, you're better off asking who's the strongest psyker.
Of course he was the best blademaster by far. He could beat any non-Primarch among the legions. But is he by far the best 1v1 fighter? For example, could he beat the huge, Titan-sized Trygon that Hive Fleet Jormungandr used to rip through a whole titan legion and a fortress wall before being brought down by anti-orbital defences? Could he do it on a cold rainy night in Stoke?
In all honesty, he WOULD ATLEAST beat it up hard before it gets him killed(in the worst case )
Can Sigismund lift several thousand tonnes and dish out punches that would sunder a Titan? Does Sigismund fly at hypersonic speeds, or toss out psychic fire capable of vaporizing people? Or cut multi-kilometer space ships in half? Because if he doesn't, he isn't the best non-Primarch fighter in 40k. When asking this question, you're better off asking who's the strongest psyker.
BlaxicanX wrote: And Lucius defeated the most skilled duelist in the Luna Wolves legion so fast that neither Loken nor anyone else in the room realized what had happened until seconds later.
Lowballing is fun, is more or less my point.
And Sharrowkyn showed that Lucius is a cocky prick who gets his ass handed to him.
Can Sigismund lift several thousand tonnes and dish out punches that would sunder a Titan? Does Sigismund fly at hypersonic speeds, or toss out psychic fire capable of vaporizing people? Or cut multi-kilometer space ships in half? Because if he doesn't, he isn't the best non-Primarch fighter in 40k. When asking this question, you're better off asking who's the strongest psyker.
Black Templars have +1 to Deny the Witch rolls due to Adamantium Will .
BlaxicanX wrote: And Lucius defeated the most skilled duelist in the Luna Wolves legion so fast that neither Loken nor anyone else in the room realized what had happened until seconds later.
Lowballing is fun, is more or less my point.
And Sharrowkyn showed that Lucius is a cocky prick who gets his ass handed to him.
Can Sigismund lift several thousand tonnes and dish out punches that would sunder a Titan? Does Sigismund fly at hypersonic speeds, or toss out psychic fire capable of vaporizing people? Or cut multi-kilometer space ships in half? Because if he doesn't, he isn't the best non-Primarch fighter in 40k. When asking this question, you're better off asking who's the strongest psyker.
Black Templars have +1 to Deny the Witch rolls due to Adamantium Will .
Except deny the witch is just a game mechanic. "Actual" 40k, if a Beta or Alpha psyker decides you should die, you just roll over and die. And that's if the Alpha Psyker doesn't just blow up the planet.
BlaxicanX wrote: And Lucius defeated the most skilled duelist in the Luna Wolves legion so fast that neither Loken nor anyone else in the room realized what had happened until seconds later.
Lowballing is fun, is more or less my point.
And Sharrowkyn showed that Lucius is a cocky prick who gets his ass handed to him.
Blessings only effect spells directed at that target. They don't stop somebody like Dak'ir going full Super Sayain, then either bodyslamming you at hypersonic velocities so you're turned into a two dimensional piece of artwork on the ground, or from picking you up and flying into orbit and punting you into the void.
Blessings only effect spells directed at that target. They don't stop somebody like Dak'ir going full Super Sayain, then either bodyslamming you at hypersonic velocities so you're turned into a two dimensional piece of artwork on the ground, or from picking you up and flying into orbit and punting you into the void.
Or stopping time completely. There's always that.
I posted 38 seconds after you. I was referring to Deadshot's post.
BlaxicanX wrote: And Lucius defeated the most skilled duelist in the Luna Wolves legion so fast that neither Loken nor anyone else in the room realized what had happened until seconds later.
Lowballing is fun, is more or less my point.
And Sharrowkyn showed that Lucius is a cocky prick who gets his ass handed to him.
Can Sigismund lift several thousand tonnes and dish out punches that would sunder a Titan? Does Sigismund fly at hypersonic speeds, or toss out psychic fire capable of vaporizing people? Or cut multi-kilometer space ships in half? Because if he doesn't, he isn't the best non-Primarch fighter in 40k. When asking this question, you're better off asking who's the strongest psyker.
Black Templars have +1 to Deny the Witch rolls due to Adamantium Will .
Except deny the witch is just a game mechanic. "Actual" 40k, if a Beta or Alpha psyker decides you should die, you just roll over and die. And that's if the Alpha Psyker doesn't just blow up the planet.
BlaxicanX wrote: And Lucius defeated the most skilled duelist in the Luna Wolves legion so fast that neither Loken nor anyone else in the room realized what had happened until seconds later.
Lowballing is fun, is more or less my point.
And Sharrowkyn showed that Lucius is a cocky prick who gets his ass handed to him.
Really its all about narrative.
What does that have to do with Lucius vs. Kharn?
Saying Person A beats Person B who beats Person C so therefore A beats C is not how you work out who's the best fighter. Everything's narrative based. In story X, A beats B, and in Y, B beats C easily. But in Story Z C could beat A and B with one arm behind his back and his eyes closed while doing Jagerbombs.
You have to look at the skill of the person in question. Lucius is certainly a skilled opponent but he has been slain by others numerous times. Sharrowkyn was the first, due to cockiness. Lord Commander Cyrius beat him. So have a number of others. Likely due to being cocky.
Kharn on the other hand, died atop a literal mountain of bodies at Terra. His feats were so impressive Khorne himself brought hik back from the dead. As mentioned, he son'd Erebus, who's no slouch himself, Erebus didn't even have a clue what happened, only that he was on his ass. Erebus had to teleport away because he knew he had no chance. He himself realised that Kharn was toying with him, and could kill him at any moment.
Blessings only effect spells directed at that target. They don't stop somebody like Dak'ir going full Super Sayain, then either bodyslamming you at hypersonic velocities so you're turned into a two dimensional piece of artwork on the ground, or from picking you up and flying into orbit and punting you into the void.
Or stopping time completely. There's always that.
What about a Blank? Come near him and n you're powers go bye-bye. Plus, you feel sick, bloated, despair, all that jazz. Culexus Assassin beats him
BlaxicanX wrote: And Lucius defeated the most skilled duelist in the Luna Wolves legion so fast that neither Loken nor anyone else in the room realized what had happened until seconds later.
Lowballing is fun, is more or less my point.
And Sharrowkyn showed that Lucius is a cocky prick who gets his ass handed to him.
Can Sigismund lift several thousand tonnes and dish out punches that would sunder a Titan? Does Sigismund fly at hypersonic speeds, or toss out psychic fire capable of vaporizing people? Or cut multi-kilometer space ships in half? Because if he doesn't, he isn't the best non-Primarch fighter in 40k. When asking this question, you're better off asking who's the strongest psyker.
Black Templars have +1 to Deny the Witch rolls due to Adamantium Will .
Except deny the witch is just a game mechanic. "Actual" 40k, if a Beta or Alpha psyker decides you should die, you just roll over and die. And that's if the Alpha Psyker doesn't just blow up the planet.
BlaxicanX wrote: And Lucius defeated the most skilled duelist in the Luna Wolves legion so fast that neither Loken nor anyone else in the room realized what had happened until seconds later.
Lowballing is fun, is more or less my point.
And Sharrowkyn showed that Lucius is a cocky prick who gets his ass handed to him.
Really its all about narrative.
What does that have to do with Lucius vs. Kharn?
Saying Person A beats Person B who beats Person C so therefore A beats C is not how you work out who's the best fighter. Everything's narrative based. In story X, A beats B, and in Y, B beats C easily. But in Story Z C could beat A and B with one arm behind his back and his eyes closed while doing Jagerbombs.
You have to look at the skill of the person in question. Lucius is certainly a skilled opponent but he has been slain by others numerous times. Sharrowkyn was the first, due to cockiness. Lord Commander Cyrius beat him. So have a number of others. Likely due to being cocky.
Kharn on the other hand, died atop a literal mountain of bodies at Terra. His feats were so impressive Khorne himself brought hik back from the dead. As mentioned, he son'd Erebus, who's no slouch himself, Erebus didn't even have a clue what happened, only that he was on his ass. Erebus had to teleport away because he knew he had no chance. He himself realised that Kharn was toying with him, and could kill him at any moment.
Blessings only effect spells directed at that target. They don't stop somebody like Dak'ir going full Super Sayain, then either bodyslamming you at hypersonic velocities so you're turned into a two dimensional piece of artwork on the ground, or from picking you up and flying into orbit and punting you into the void.
Or stopping time completely. There's always that.
What about a Blank? Come near him and n you're powers go bye-bye. Plus, you feel sick, bloated, despair, all that jazz. Culexus Assassin beats him
Again, blanks only effect attacks directed at him. There's nothing stopping Dak'ir from tossing land raiders at the Assassin from a thousand feet up in the air, or again, slamming into him at hypersonic speeds.
Basically, Dak'ir is a lite version of Superman, only with psychic abilities.
ThePrimordial wrote: You didn't leave out Empy during the Crusade.
He'd literally squash Abaddon or Swarmy like a bug. More like a bacterial cell really.
You didn't leave out the C'tan either.
There was one ork that won emps. Only Horus's heroic intervention saved him.
The Beast, the greatest Ork warlord to have ever lived IIRC. He had a bigger Waaaaagh! than Gazghkull.
The Beast, the greatest Ork warlord to have ever lived IIRC. He had a bigger Waaaaagh! than Gazghkull.
Different Ork. The Beast came well after after the Horus Heresy (32nd millennium I think) and united most of the Orks of the galaxy and was only stopped at great cost to the Adeptus Astartes (and presumably lot of other people). Kind of contradicts the idea that if the Orks united they'd quickly overrun the entire galaxy.
In a straight out one-on-one fight the Ork that Horus "saved" the Emperor from would lose.
Deadshot wrote: You have to look at the skill of the person in question.
Impossible to do in a vaccum, like you're doing. The skill of a warrior is gauged by the prowess of his opponents. Using your example, Kharn "dying atop a mountain of bodies" means little if we have no idea how impressive the people whom he defeated was.
Your logic is a double-standard. If Lucius getting killed "due to cockiness" is supposed to somehow invalidate all of his ridiculous feats, then why wave away Kharn getting killed by some nameless opponent on Terra, getting son'd by Loken and fighting a losing battle against Random Ultramarine Captain in Betrayer? You say that the abilities of the characters are defined by the narrative, but laud Kharn cinematically lying atop a mountain of bodies while attempting to ignore everything Lucuius has done. You laud Khorne bringing Kharn back to life as his champion while ignoring the fact that Slaanesh did the exact same thing with Lucius. Kharn defeating Erebus is somehow impressive while Lucius defeating Loken is not.
The fact of the matter is that Lucius just has better feats, and that's really all there is to it. Everything Kharn has ever done, Lucius has matched. But soloing the Phoenix Guard, speed-blitzing the Luna Wolve's greatest swordsman and taking on entire squads of enemies by himself while doing goofy gak like using his off-hand or standing on one leg just to make the fight more fair is simply more impressive than anything Kharn has ever done.
The Beast, the greatest Ork warlord to have ever lived IIRC. He had a bigger Waaaaagh! than Gazghkull.
Different Ork. The Beast came well after after the Horus Heresy (32nd millennium I think) and united most of the Orks of the galaxy and was only stopped at great cost to the Adeptus Astartes (and presumably lot of other people). Kind of contradicts the idea that if the Orks united they'd quickly overrun the entire galaxy.
In a straight out one-on-one fight the Ork that Horus "saved" the Emperor from would lose.
The Beast? Any post-heresy Orks are absolute jokes next to the monstrosities faced by the Great Crusade.
The Wolf of Ash and Fire wrote:The Emperor fought an armoured giant twice his height and breadth. Its skull was a vast, iron-helmed boulder with elephantine tusks and chisel-like teeth that gleamed dully. Its eyes were coal-red slits of such vicious intelligence that it stole Horus’s breath. Horus had never seen its equal. No bestiary would include its description for fear of being ridiculed, no magos of the Mechanicum would accept such a specimen could exist. Six clanking, mechanised limbs bolted through its flesh bore grinding, crackling, sawing, snapping, flame-belching weapons of murder. The Emperor’s armour was burning, the golden wreath now ashes around his neck. Chugging rotor cannons battered the Emperor’s armour even as claws of lightning tore portions of it away. It was taking every screed of the Emperor’s warrior skill and psychic might to keep the mech-warlord’s weaponry from killing him. ‘Father!’ shouted Horus. The greenskin turned and saw Horus. It saw the desperation in his face and laughed. A fist like a Reductor siege hammer smashed the Emperor’s sword aside and a fist of green flesh lifted him into the air. It crushed the life from him with its inhuman power.
‘No!’ yelled Horus, battering his way through the last of the greenskins to reach his father’s side. The Mech-Warlord turned his spinal weapons on Horus, and a blistering series of lightning strikes hammered the walkway. Horus dodged them all, a wolf on the hunt amid the ash and fire of the world’s ending. He had no weapon, and where that wasn’t normally a handicap to a warrior of the Legions, against this foe it was a definite disadvantage. No weapon of his would hurt this beast anyway. But one of its own…
Horus gripped one of the warlord’s mechanised arms, one bearing the spinning brass spheres and crackling tines of its lightning weapon. The arm’s strength was prodigious, but centimetre by centimetre Horus forced it around.
Lightning blasted from the weapon, burning Horus’s hands black. Bone gleamed through the ruin of his flesh, but what was that pain when set against the loss of a father? With one last herculean effort, Horus wrenched the arm up as a sawing blast of white-edged lightning erupted from the weapon. A searing burst of fire impacted on the Mech-Warlord’s forearm and the limb exploded from the elbow down in a welter of blackened bone and boiling blood. The beast grunted in surprise, dropping the Emperor and staring in dumb fascination at the ruin of its arm.
Seizing the chance he had been given, the Emperor bent low and surged upwards with his bluesteel sword extended. The tip ripped into the Mech-Warlord’s belly and burst from its back in a shower of sparks. ‘Now you die,’ said the Emperor, and ripped his blade up. It was an awful, agonising, mortal wound. Electrical fire vented from hideous metal organs within the wreckage of the greenskin’s body.
Horus felt the build up of colossal psychic energies and shielded his eyes as a furious light built within the Emperor. Power like nothing he had ever seen his father wield, or even suspected he possessed. All consuming, all powerful, it was the power to extinguish life in every sphere of its existence. Physical flesh turned to ash before it and what ancient faiths had once called a soul was burned out of existence, never to cohere again.
If any Ork should be nominated, it's this one. Twice the height and width of the Emperor? Even Ghazghkull is tiny next to this monster.
There is no evidence that the Emperor was bigger or taller than a mortal man. He could be the average height of 6'2.
That said, assuming the Emperor rivaled the Primarchs for size, this thing can barely be classified as an ork. Its more like a Deff Dread with its 6 mechanical armours and artificial organs.
That said, assuming the Emperor rivaled the Primarchs for size, this thing can barely be classified as an ork. Its more like a Deff Dread with its 6 mechanical armours and artificial organs.
It is indeed an Ork, and arguably the strongest, largest, mightiest and most Orky Ork to have ever lived. The Great Crusade was an era where there was significantly less war going on despite the crusade itself, so the Ork had simply lived for longer, fought longer, and been growing for longer.
Imagine the damage such a monstrosity would do in M41. He could unite every Ork in the galaxy if news of him spread that far.
The Great Crusade, the age of colossal Orks, Primarchs, Eldar soon after the fall (and thus where they haven't had time to decline as much as they have in M41) and so on, is like Greek mythology, whereas 40K is like Greek history!
BlaxicanX wrote: Not counting the best dudes, Lucius is probably the best fighter. Comparing him to at least Kharn, he has vastly more impressive combat feats.
Like having a tough fight against Erebus. Who Kharn son'd so hard that he was bored doing it.
Sure, and casually stomping Loken, who beat Kharn.
BlaxicanX wrote: Not counting the best dudes, Lucius is probably the best fighter. Comparing him to at least Kharn, he has vastly more impressive combat feats.
Like having a tough fight against Erebus. Who Kharn son'd so hard that he was bored doing it.
Sure, and casually stomping Loken, who beat Kharn.
BlaxicanX wrote: Not counting the best dudes, Lucius is probably the best fighter. Comparing him to at least Kharn, he has vastly more impressive combat feats.
Like having a tough fight against Erebus. Who Kharn son'd so hard that he was bored doing it.
Sure, and casually stomping Loken, who beat Kharn.
Now you're just lying to support your bias.
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Furyou Miko wrote: The emperor has been stated in several places to tower over Magnus the Red, who was the biggest of the Primarchs.
Somehow almost everybody has forgotten the badass who never lost a fight, not even against the most powerful Khornate Daemon in 40k the Sanguinor would kick everyone's groins so hardd his sword would come out their throats. I dont thnk thats physically possible, but you get my point.
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Furyou Miko wrote: The emperor has been stated in several places to tower over Magnus the Red, who was the biggest of the Primarchs.
The Emperor is basically an incubus though - he looks like what you would think the Emperor should look like.
Stop arguing about the Emprah's size. this guy excplicitly stated that the Emprah is as tall as you think he should be
dusara217 wrote: Somehow almost everybody has forgotten the badass who never lost a fight, not even against the most powerful Khornate Daemon in 40k the Sanguinor would kick everyone's groins so hardd his sword would come out their throats. I dont thnk thats physically possible, but you get my point.
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Furyou Miko wrote: The emperor has been stated in several places to tower over Magnus the Red, who was the biggest of the Primarchs.
The Emperor is basically an incubus though - he looks like what you would think the Emperor should look like.
Stop arguing about the Emprah's size. this guy excplicitly stated that the Emprah is as tall as you think he should be
Even the Sanguinor would lose to Dak'ir- he's that bloody insane. Hold on, I'll look for the section in the Salamanders Omnibus where he cuts a ship in half and flies through space at hypersonic speeds.
Bobthehero wrote: Can we pretend that didn't happen, ever? If people are so willing to dismiss Draigo fluff, there's no reason to put up with that kind of crap.
Well the Draigo stuff got retconned and nerfed, so it's not like it's even a problem anymore.
Besides, if not for Dak'ir, there's numerous other hilariously overpowered psykers, because that's what psykers do. Either that or ghosts like the Legion of the Damned, who are immortal intangible killing machines that can phase through stuff Necron-style and lack bodies to kill.
Bobthehero wrote: Can we pretend that didn't happen, ever? If people are so willing to dismiss Draigo fluff, there's no reason to put up with that kind of crap.
Can we please ignore it in the effect of this thread too? If Primarchs are out them this guy should go too.
Bobthehero wrote: Can we pretend that didn't happen, ever? If people are so willing to dismiss Draigo fluff, there's no reason to put up with that kind of crap.
Can we please ignore it in the effect of this thread too? If Primarchs are out them this guy should go too.
Except then we fall into a cycle of having to keep banning combatants. If we remove Dak'ir, there's still psykers in general, who can do fun stuff like stop time, phase through objects, instantly murder guys with biomancy, etc. But if we ban them, then we'll have to get rid of daemons and ghosts like the Legion of the Damned, who can tell reality to screw itself, teleport, and phase through objects. But if we ban them, we'll also probably have to ban almost all Necron units, as they also can phase through objects, ignore armor, teleport, cause insta-death, etc. But if we ban them, then we'll have to ban Phoenix Lords, as they can fight entire world-swallowing armies single handily and win, or take on Greater Daemons and curbstomp them. But if we ban them, then we'll have to ban Obliterators too, who are nigh immortal, have wolvering regeneration, and are armed with virtually every weapon in history.
Furyou Miko wrote: So, with the exception of the Emperor, the Primarchs, Da'kir, Draigo and Ephrael Stern, who's the greatest one on one combatant in the 40k universe?
Probably either one the numerous loyalist or traitor Astartes Psykers. Either that or the Swarmlord.
Although come to think of it, there's a surprising lack of Solitaire in this thread. Those guys fight Greater Daemons for fun and win. There's also Maugan Ra, who's motherfething Maugan Ra.
Phoenix Lords are probably exempt as the xeno equivalent of a primarch, and Solitaires are harlequins, saying they 'do it for fun' is like saying 'The Joker likes a laugh'.
Furyou Miko wrote: Phoenix Lords are probably exempt as the xeno equivalent of a primarch, and Solitaires are harlequins, saying they 'do it for fun' is like saying 'The Joker likes a laugh'.
dusara217 wrote: This thread was supposed to be about the best solo combatant in 40k, you can't keep banning people just because they are epicly powerful.
In which case, Gork and Mork or Khorne win. Game over.
Bharring wrote: Well, if we paid any attention to game rules, any random Vindicare Assassin is better at swordplay than Jain Zar (higher WS)...
Phoenix Lords aren't like primarchs in that Primarchs were made that way, whereas Phoenix Lords are that way because of their dedication and skill.
And in the case of Maugan Ra, staggering amounts of badassery. Like the meme I made, in the quip of Maugan Ra taking out an entire Tyranid fleet by himself, there is no mention of him having a space ship. Presumably he hitched a ride on a tyranid flyer and rode it into space.
Furyou Miko wrote: Or he just webway blipped around, since he can ignore the rules of outnumbering and power/ammunition limits, so why not metaphysics as well?
Eldar are truly exceptional if they can hide a webway portal in orbit in mid-air of a planet.
They are, although someone was trying to tell me that you can exit the webway anywhere you like, you only need a gate to get into it. >< Which is cack, but they were trying to explain how Necrons are able to maintain multiple star systems wthout FTL except their four dolmen gates.
Furyou Miko wrote: They are, although someone was trying to tell me that you can exit the webway anywhere you like, you only need a gate to get into it. >< Which is cack, but they were trying to explain how Necrons are able to maintain multiple star systems wthout FTL except their four dolmen gates.
Well, IA gave the Necrons their FTL back, so that isn't a problem.
Furyou Miko wrote: They are, although someone was trying to tell me that you can exit the webway anywhere you like, you only need a gate to get into it. >< Which is cack, but they were trying to explain how Necrons are able to maintain multiple star systems wthout FTL except their four dolmen gates.
Well, IA gave the Necrons their FTL back, so that isn't a problem.
Oh, no, they were desperately trying to claim that statement wasn't true. They were very invested in Imotekh being the only Necron with any power in the new book, you see, and his supposed strength is based entirely around controlling all the Dolmen Gates.
