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Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

So it's from the Tyranid codex and not a random White Dwarf

I think he was talking about how they changed the original fluff from the WD (which came out first)

It might have been from a random WD initially, but it's backed up by the 6th ed codex. The 5th ed codex says how Calgar rallies the defenders and casts the tyranids for everymore from this world, but doesn't mention the encounter with the Swarmlord.

The Gauntlets really are just powerfists. Regardless of whether or not they are vastly superior to Terminator armour (what), they still killed the Avatar with a single strike where thunderhammers were entirely useless. There's a very large gap between "useless" and "instant death", meaning that the Gauntlets of Ultramar are not only tougher than Terminator armour, but an order of magnitude more powerful than thunderhammers. It's just dumb, as is the rest of The Battle for Orar's Sepulchre, wherein the Eldar seem to think that they are Tyranids, because they start using suicidal swarm tactics on gun nests and then summon the Avatar when this doesn't work.

The fluff on the Gauntlets is bad, too - they're powerfists with bolters in them, but this is apparently a marvel of technology that can't be replicated because Marneus Calgar. They used to belong to a Champion of Chaos, but it's okay because Marneus Calgar. Also, they used to belong to the Primarch (who probably couldn't fit in them, and I'm pretty sure has never been shown to use them or even own them), because Marneus Calgar.

Marneus Calgar is smarter, stronger, and just plain better than everyone else in the galaxy, as well as hundreds of times more heroic and successful than any other Space Marine because Marneus Calgar. Really the only explanation is that either Calgar or some other Ultramarine writes fanfiction about him, twisting history and making up events to make him out to be much better than he is. It's likely the same with Draigo, the Grey Knights making up cool stories of Pyrrhic struggles and infinite virtue rather than accepting that he's just stuck in the Warp.

The Swarmlord fight is another good example of why Calgar's stories are just plain silly. The thing can parry projectiles from midair and its blades made his armour, once again, "useless". How did it manage to only wound him, with such preternatural speed, skill, reflexes and very large, very sharp blades?

Calgar and Draigo are both plot armour taken to its worst extreme, however, Kais could absolutely beat them both up with the butt of his pulse rifle or that silly little sword he has.

I haven't read the Firewarrior book, but I don't really want to. Besides, I should keep the experience in its purest form in my mind; "Dese Impeweals are a deeewious ewenmy". Brilliant.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

The fluff on the Gauntlets is bad, too - they're powerfists with bolters in them, but this is apparently a marvel of technology that can't be replicated because Marneus Calgar. They used to belong to a Champion of Chaos, but it's okay because Marneus Calgar. Also, they used to belong to the Primarch (who probably couldn't fit in them, and I'm pretty sure has never been shown to use them or even own them), because Marneus Calgar.

They cut off circulation so his hands balloon, he just needs to swing his arms about or point and pew pew

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

So it's from the Tyranid codex and not a random White Dwarf

I think he was talking about how they changed the original fluff from the WD (which came out first)

It might have been from a random WD initially, but it's backed up by the 6th ed codex. The 5th ed codex says how Calgar rallies the defenders and casts the tyranids for everymore from this world, but doesn't mention the encounter with the Swarmlord.

In the 5th Ed codex it was never stated he beat the Swarmlord in round 2. Then a WD said this bullgak story. They they reprinted it in the Codex. Still doesn't make it less bullgak because its official. Just look at Draigo. It was official but still considered bullgak by many.

It's certainly bullgak, but alas, it's there, in both cases.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
It's certainly bullgak, but alas, it's there, in both cases.

Then again, isn't the stuff in Codexes etc supposed to be propaganda for whatever side they talk about? Marines are ultra awesome in their own books but die like flies elsewhere. Guard make heroic sacrifices to stop the enemies of mankind, or die like flies. Eldar use their masterful divinations to stop threats against their race, or go in blind and die like flies. And so on.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Lucius has been beat loads times

So has Kharn. The difference is that Lucius has actually beaten people of note, whereas Kharn has not.

 Deadshot wrote:
Not only that, the Swarmlord has all the experience of all its former incarnations. If it beat him with easy the first time it is simply not possible for it to lose to the same foe a second time.

Don't see why this really matters. The Swarmlord's ability to absorb experience and learn from its previous encounters isn't unique in 40K. Most Mechanicum fighters of high enough rank have uploaded knowledge of every fighting style and dueling technique on record in the Imperium, as the novel Priests of Mars shows us.

And for that matter, the learning ability of the Swarmlord is overblown. "He learns from his past experiences" is unique for a race where 99% of its living creatures have a life-span of about 6 months max, but "learn from past experiences" is a uh... pretty standard occurrence for the rest of us.

Point is, it's nothing new. Space Marines have been beating the asses of Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes, many of whom have millions of years of warfare experience, since the fluff's inception. The Swarmlord getting son'd is nothing surprising.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The Gauntlets really are just powerfists. Regardless of whether or not they are vastly superior to Terminator armour (what), they still killed the Avatar with a single strike where thunderhammers were entirely useless.

A) Where was it stated that thunderhammer blows were just casually bouncing off the Avatar? B) Where was it stated that he knocked it's head off with a single punch?

Haven't read the story in years.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Lucius has been beat loads times

So has Kharn. The difference is that Lucius has actually beaten people of note, whereas Kharn has not.

 Deadshot wrote:
Not only that, the Swarmlord has all the experience of all its former incarnations. If it beat him with easy the first time it is simply not possible for it to lose to the same foe a second time.

Don't see why this really matters. The Swarmlord's ability to absorb experience and learn from its previous encounters isn't unique in 40K. Most Mechanicum fighters of high enough rank have uploaded knowledge of every fighting style and dueling technique on record in the Imperium, as the novel Priests of Mars shows us.

And for that matter, the learning ability of the Swarmlord is overblown. "He learns from his past experiences" is unique for a race where 99% of its living creatures have a life-span of about 6 months max, but "learn from past experiences" is a uh... pretty standard occurrence for the rest of us.

Point is, it's nothing new. Space Marines have been beating the asses of Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes, many of whom have millions of years of warfare experience, since the fluff's inception. The Swarmlord getting son'd is nothing surprising.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The Gauntlets really are just powerfists. Regardless of whether or not they are vastly superior to Terminator armour (what), they still killed the Avatar with a single strike where thunderhammers were entirely useless.

A) Where was it stated that thunderhammer blows were just casually bouncing off the Avatar? B) Where was it stated that he knocked it's head off with a single punch?

Haven't read the story in years.

For the Swarmlord, its a slightly different thing. Sure, each member of the Imperium (of a suitable rank like Calgar) can learn and study to the best of his ability every bit of data and perfect it. But it will never come close to have access to every piece of information your race has ever gathered just by existing, not to mentioned being literally designed to win a battle or counter a foed. The Swarmlord is doesn't just learn from its losses, it learns from every single creature in the race at once across a dozen galaxies and billions of incarnations. It is the ultimate predator.

As for Avatar: from the 5th Ed Codex where it had a 2 page spread, as opposed to the codensed version in 6th.

Each irresistable sweep of the Avatar's flaming sword sundered armour, flesh and bone, leaving nought but unmoving bodies. Terminators of the 1st Company set upon the Avatar with power fist and thunder hammer, but their blows did little more than stagger it.

...

So it was that Calgar fell upon the Avatar before the other was aware of his presence, and smote the creature a dolorous and terrible blow. Bellowing with fury, the Avatar turned to face its new attacker. The first blow missed the Chapter Master by a hair's breadth. The second tore a great wound from his armour. A third drove deep into his shoulder, cleaving the pauldron and driving the Chapter Master to his knees. But the fourth, intended as a coup de grâce to sever Calgar's head from his shoulders, slammed it the armour palm of Calgar's left hand.

The armoured glove charred and warped as Calgar closed his grasp around the blade. No other gauntlet could have withstood that mighty blow nor the furious heat behind it. But the fabled Gauntlets of Ultramar are of older and sterner make, crafted with a skill and technology long lost to the race of Man. For a moment, mortal and god strove for control of the incandescent sword and in that moment the Avatar was defenceless. Rising up, Calgar struck with all his strength, bringing his other gauntlet around in a mighty arc. The Avatar roared in pain and fury as the power fist punched clean through the molten ichor of its torso. With a final bellow the Avatar exploded in a white-hot flash that showered cinders and moltern metal all around.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The Gauntlets really are just powerfists. Regardless of whether or not they are vastly superior to Terminator armour (what),

The Gauntlets of Ultramar are very tough. Nobody has even been able to open them to get a look inside, even then the Avatar managed to damage them.
Calgar himself is very strong.

THE SHIELD SHATTERED
Inspiration burnt through the Chapter Master’s mind. With
his honour guard storming forwards in his wake, Calgar
sprinted towards the malfunctioning Pylon, smashing his
way through the ranks of Necron Immortals that were
moving to protect it. The Chapter Master lashed out left
and right to pulverise xenos torsos and heads wherever he
struck, for a terrible wrath was roused within him, and his
resolve to reach the Gauss Pylon was all but unstoppable.
Jumping up onto the metallic base of the malfunctioning
Pylon, Calgar braced himself and heaved with both hands
at its crescent-shaped superstructure. Servos and pistons
whined in protest as the famed Gauntlets of Ultramar left
grooves in its living metal.

Teeth gritted and eyes screwed tight, the Chapter Master
pushed with everything he had, veins popping under
his close-cropped grey hair. He roared in pain with the
bone-breaking effort of his feat, but sure enough the
Pylon began to move on its bearings, its flaring gauss
beam crackling across the skies above the warring armies.
Slowly, inexorably, Calgar pushed the war engine’s crescent
back upon itself until its beam met the energy grid that
protected the floating necropolis.

It is no surprise he makes swiss cheese of the Avatar and beats extra-galactic alien tyrant weapon organisms to death with his bare hands.

Come on! Fine I will say it!

Kaldor Draigo! Of course he would beat most heroes even on tabletop he would kick the crap out of all heroes and I say this with dread I hate the bastard!


I love all of you saying failbaddon Oh! I mean Abaddon.

Also if it came down to orks I think tuska the daemon killa would proably win vs most heroes. Hell he is supposed to fight titans/megatanks (and kick the crap out of Abaddon)

 Deadshot wrote:
For the Swarmlord, its a slightly different thing. Sure, each member of the Imperium (of a suitable rank like Calgar) can learn and study to the best of his ability every bit of data and perfect it. But it will never come close to have access to every piece of information your race has ever gathered just by existing, not to mentioned being literally designed to win a battle or counter a foed. The Swarmlord is doesn't just learn from its losses, it learns from every single creature in the race at once across a dozen galaxies and billions of incarnations. It is the ultimate predator.

Right, but again that's nothing new for most of the Galaxy. Most sentients learn from every encounter. As I said, there are Greater Daemons and Princes like Bela'kor who have combat experience that would make the entire Tyranid race look like children. But, knowledge isn't everything in a fight.

As for Avatar: from the 5th Ed Codex where it had a 2 page spread, as opposed to the codensed version in 6th.

Each irresistable sweep of the Avatar's flaming sword sundered armour, flesh and bone, leaving nought but unmoving bodies. Terminators of the 1st Company set upon the Avatar with power fist and thunder hammer, but their blows did little more than stagger it.

...

So it was that Calgar fell upon the Avatar before the other was aware of his presence, and smote the creature a dolorous and terrible blow. Bellowing with fury, the Avatar turned to face its new attacker. The first blow missed the Chapter Master by a hair's breadth. The second tore a great wound from his armour. A third drove deep into his shoulder, cleaving the pauldron and driving the Chapter Master to his knees. But the fourth, intended as a coup de grâce to sever Calgar's head from his shoulders, slammed it the armour palm of Calgar's left hand.

The armoured glove charred and warped as Calgar closed his grasp around the blade. No other gauntlet could have withstood that mighty blow nor the furious heat behind it. But the fabled Gauntlets of Ultramar are of older and sterner make, crafted with a skill and technology long lost to the race of Man. For a moment, mortal and god strove for control of the incandescent sword and in that moment the Avatar was defenceless. Rising up, Calgar struck with all his strength, bringing his other gauntlet around in a mighty arc. The Avatar roared in pain and fury as the power fist punched clean through the molten ichor of its torso. With a final bellow the Avatar exploded in a white-hot flash that showered cinders and moltern metal all around.

Heh, glorious.

I don't see how one can claim that the Gauntlets are "just powerfists" when the text explicitly states that they aren't, though. They seem to be DAoT tech.

What about Skarbarand??? or Be'Lakor.... much better than mere humans or humanoids.

 AutarchRion wrote:
What about Skarbarand??? or Be'Lakor.... much better than mere humans or humanoids.

Except Dante beat Skarbrand in single combat, and if the legend is to believed he did it in one blow.

Although suffering badly from the worf effect, the avatar does deserve a mention, being a shard of Kaine.

 zombiekila707 wrote:
Come on! Fine I will say it!

Kaldor Draigo! Of course he would beat most heroes even on tabletop he would kick the crap out of all heroes and I say this with dread I hate the bastard!


I love all of you saying failbaddon Oh! I mean Abaddon.

Also if it came down to orks I think tuska the daemon killa would proably win vs most heroes. Hell he is supposed to fight titans/megatanks (and kick the crap out of Abaddon)

"Failbaddon" is overused and misunderstood. Each of his Crusades thus far has been a success in its primary objective. Which was not to seize Terra. That was just a nice bonus. For example, his first Crusade was simply to secure Drachn'yen and nothing more. The 12th was to grab Blackstone Fortresses which he did.

In terms of personal combat he is noted that with Drachn'yen "his power swells to inhuman levels." And if he can keep the Daemon Primarchs content, particularly Angron who would kill you as soon as look at you, he must be pretty damn powerful. Also not that his other weapon, the Talon of Horus, is a Primarch weapon. Not many other Special Characters can boast that. Azrael, Logan, Calgar, Dante. None of the other Chaos characters either, except Kharn who has Gorechild..

 BlaxicanX wrote:


I don't see how one can claim that the Gauntlets are "just powerfists" when the text explicitly states that they aren't, though. They seem to be DAoT tech.

Codex: Space Marines, 3rd edition wrote:The Gauntlets of Ultramar are two mighty Power Fists with incorporated Bolters that were reclaimed from a fallen Chaos champion, slain during the Gamalia Reclusiam Massacre by the Primarch of the Ultramarines, Roboute Guilliman himself. No one has been able to penetrate the thick adamantine shell of the fists to study the workings inside.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Lucius has been beat loads times

So has Kharn. The difference is that Lucius has actually beaten people of note, whereas Kharn has not.

Who's Lucius beaten who has been truly noteworthy? Lord Commander Cyrius who is a nobody with no fluff outside of the Chaos Codex, I don't know of any body else.

Kharn might have been beaten, but has he been beaten to death on numerous occasions like Lucius has? He died a top a mountain of bodies at the siege of Terra where Lucius was off probably doing dastardly things to the population.

In the Heresy series so far the only thing that has beaten Kharn is a Landraiders sneak attack

Lucius is probably one of the most skilled, if not the most skilled, combatant in 40k. But skill doesn't always trump force and it's his arrogance that is his biggest flaw. That's what lets him down and is, imo, where Kharn is better. It's hard for a Child of Fulgrim to admit.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:


I don't see how one can claim that the Gauntlets are "just powerfists" when the text explicitly states that they aren't, though. They seem to be DAoT tech.

Codex: Space Marines, 3rd edition wrote:The Gauntlets of Ultramar are two mighty Power Fists with incorporated Bolters that were reclaimed from a fallen Chaos champion, slain during the Gamalia Reclusiam Massacre by the Primarch of the Ultramarines, Roboute Guilliman himself. No one has been able to penetrate the thick adamantine shell of the fists to study the workings inside.

My word, it's not hard to differentiate, yes they are powerfists, but saying the gauntlets are the same as any other powerfist is like saying a peugoet 206 and a buggati veyron are exactly the same as they are cars.

I'm going to give a bias answer and put a vote in for Venerable Captain Pellas Mir'San, commander of the Salamanders 2nd company.

Also known as "The Winter Blade", he is a previous Feast of Blades champion and famous duelist. (which is important here lol)

He has served the chapter as captain and or champion for over 180 years now, and wields the legendary power sword Cinder Edge

Cinder Edge - Cinder Edge is a master-crafted Power Blade forged by the hand of Pellas Mir'san. The blade was folded countless times in the fires of Nocturne's volcanic heat.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Pellas_Mir%27san

 BladeTX wrote:
Feast of Blades champion and famous duelist.

Trial of Blades, the Feast of Blades is exclusively for the descendants of Dorn. Sorry.

I haven't read the Firewarrior book, but I don't really want to

I thought it was a very good read - but then I liked the game but not played it for a few months

Khorne.

/thread.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 BladeTX wrote:
Feast of Blades champion and famous duelist.

Trial of Blades, the Feast of Blades is exclusively for the descendants of Dorn. Sorry.

Needless to say, he'd win that too. Sorry.

 BladeTX wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 BladeTX wrote:
Feast of Blades champion and famous duelist.

Trial of Blades, the Feast of Blades is exclusively for the descendants of Dorn. Sorry.

Needless to say, he'd win that too. Sorry.

Salamanders are documented to be of slightly slower reaction times when compared to other marines, so being the most capable Salamander in a blade duel isn't actually saying much

Besides this thread isn't for duels, it is for straight up combat between two combatants. So in most cases the swordsman in question would have to be EXTREMELY impressive to overcome all the other types of attacks that would be coming his way. For example Ahriman killed a Chaos Lord, 2 mutated marines, and 3 Sorcerers in "fewer than five beats of a human heart" in the Exile novel. Your Salamander would be dust before he could even think "I should dodge".

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Codex: Space Marines, 3rd edition wrote:The Gauntlets of Ultramar are two mighty Power Fists with incorporated Bolters that were reclaimed from a fallen Chaos champion, slain during the Gamalia Reclusiam Massacre by the Primarch of the Ultramarines, Roboute Guilliman himself. No one has been able to penetrate the thick adamantine shell of the fists to study the workings inside.

The Post Right Above Yours wrote:No other gauntlet could have withstood that mighty blow nor the furious heat behind it. But the fabled Gauntlets of Ultramar are of older and sterner make, crafted with a skill and technology long lost to the race of Man.

At least try.

Mr Morden wrote:

I haven't read the Firewarrior book, but I don't really want to

I thought it was a very good read - but then I liked the game but not played it for a few months

It was a good read. Most of the game's problems revolved around game play decisions, such as turning Pulse Rifles into E-111 Blasters.

BlaxicanX wrote:

At least try.

Just because they're Chaos doesn't mean they can't be DAoT. Not sure why you're trying to argue with me. Warp Magic is just as much of a 'lost art' to the Imperium as super-metals.

It makes sense that a Marine's powerfists would just be sturdy gauntlets to a Primarch.

He could simply remove some of the powery stuff on the inside so he can fit in his hands.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:

At least try.

Just because they're Chaos doesn't mean they can't be DAoT. Not sure why you're trying to argue with me. Warp Magic is just as much of a 'lost art' to the Imperium as super-metals.

Think he meant they had almost the same content and one was above the other, the second poster didnt even read through

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The Gauntlets really are just powerfists. Regardless of whether or not they are vastly superior to Terminator armour (what), they still killed the Avatar with a single strike where thunderhammers were entirely useless. There's a very large gap between "useless" and "instant death", meaning that the Gauntlets of Ultramar are not only tougher than Terminator armour, but an order of magnitude more powerful than thunderhammers. It's just dumb, as is the rest of The Battle for Orar's Sepulchre, wherein the Eldar seem to think that they are Tyranids, because they start using suicidal swarm tactics on gun nests and then summon the Avatar when this doesn't work.

The fluff on the Gauntlets is bad, too - they're powerfists with bolters in them, but this is apparently a marvel of technology that can't be replicated because Marneus Calgar. They used to belong to a Champion of Chaos, but it's okay because Marneus Calgar. Also, they used to belong to the Primarch (who probably couldn't fit in them, and I'm pretty sure has never been shown to use them or even own them), because Marneus Calgar.

Marneus Calgar is smarter, stronger, and just plain better than everyone else in the galaxy, as well as hundreds of times more heroic and successful than any other Space Marine because Marneus Calgar. Really the only explanation is that either Calgar or some other Ultramarine writes fanfiction about him, twisting history and making up events to make him out to be much better than he is. It's likely the same with Draigo, the Grey Knights making up cool stories of Pyrrhic struggles and infinite virtue rather than accepting that he's just stuck in the Warp.

As I've said before, Marneus Calgar, apart from being the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines, moonlights as a Pimp. Thus, he is a Master at the martial art known as Pimp Hand.

Other Space Marines and, indeed, other Chapter Masters can wear Power-fists. Even Imperial Guardsmen can wear powerfists.

But none of them are Pimps, and so their mastery of Pimp Hand is found wanting.

Venerable Chapter Master Please don't use language like this on Dakka. Reds8n of the Iron Hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It seems I have been edited but can't realy help it, this is ificial term for this: build. Sorry.