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Salamanders are documented to be of slightly slower reaction times when compared to other marines, so being the most capable Salamander in a blade duel isn't actually saying much

Besides this thread isn't for duels, it is for straight up combat between two combatants. So in most cases the swordsman in question would have to be EXTREMELY impressive to overcome all the other types of attacks that would be coming his way. For example Ahriman killed a Chaos Lord, 2 mutated marines, and 3 Sorcerers in "fewer than five beats of a human heart" in the Exile novel. Your Salamander would be dust before he could even think "I should dodge".

Well he is pretty impressive. Besides we all understand that we don't the settings of the "fight" that would occur between any two votes.

Ie. If a melee oriented and ranged combat oriented battle ensues a mile apart then the melee oriented individual would clearly stand no chance... etc

So this discussion is solely based on the individual rather that it's combat with anyone.

It straight up says he will lose to a list of dudes, so he wont contend for best 1 on 1 fighter if he will lose to a list of dudes.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Not counting the best dudes, Lucius is probably the best fighter. Comparing him to at least Kharn, he has vastly more impressive combat feats.

Like having a tough fight against Erebus. Who Kharn son'd so hard that he was bored doing it.

I guess the kind of situation and combat has a large bearing on this.

A fully kitted out tau commander in battlesuit would be able to outshoot many potential melee threats.

Psykers in the fluff can have nigh unlimited powers, which would make for some pretty one sided fights.

Overall, vs most opponents, I'd say a Bloodthirster would come out on top most of the time. Very capable in close combat, fast and resistant to psychic powers.

The problem with determining who is the 'best' from a fluff perspective is that in many of the stories the characters have plot armour, which grossly overpower them.

If the Gaunt's Ghost novels are to be believed for example, then the best one on one fighter in the galaxy would be a guardsman with a lasgun and a cloak.

Ciaphas Cain. He's the luckiest dude in the galaxy. If Abbaddon came after him, he'd run and trip on a missile launcher. The missile launcher would fire into a closeby building, dislodging some rubble. The rubble would fall into a conveniently placed Shadowsword with the top hatch open and ricochet around the inside. The ricochets would match perfectly the cadence of the Rites of Activation, pleasing the Machine Spirit enough that the Shadowsword would self activate and fire... which would of course hit Abby in the face.

Ciaphas is hailed as a hero and claims to have done it on purpose. Amasec is shared by everyone.

Later that evening, Ciaphas requisitions new underpants as his are now beyond recovery.

Judging by who they have killed, I would say Fulgrim.
Who else has 2 Primarch sized notches on his belt?

Legienstrasse is probably a safe bet... As long as she doesn't come up against a particularly huggy/explodey eversor.

Besides broken guys like Horus (Chaos influenced) or the Emperor, Sanguinius was pretty unstoppable.

Primarchs are explicitly disallowed.

JMS wrote:
Legienstrasse is probably a safe bet... As long as she doesn't come up against a particularly huggy/explodey eversor.

If you're dead you're pretty much out of the contest don't you think?

Typhus was the first to pop into my head. First off, he's a Nurglite Terminator, making a tough unit even tougher. He can wade through small-arms fire without so much a scratch, his Destroyer Hive can eat pretty much anything, he's a Psyker (albeit not the best), and his Scythe can rip you into pieces. That, and he's perhaps one of the most tenacious Chaos Characters because the amount of wars he survived are legendary, even to the Death Guard who's training is hinged entirely on being the toughest army in existence which is saying something.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Not counting the best dudes, Lucius is probably the best fighter. Comparing him to at least Kharn, he has vastly more impressive combat feats.

Like having a tough fight against Erebus. Who Kharn son'd so hard that he was bored doing it.

Sure, and casually stomping Loken, who beat Kharn.


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 Void__Dragon wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Not counting the best dudes, Lucius is probably the best fighter. Comparing him to at least Kharn, he has vastly more impressive combat feats.

Like having a tough fight against Erebus. Who Kharn son'd so hard that he was bored doing it.

Sure, and casually stomping Loken, who beat Kharn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Not counting the best dudes, Lucius is probably the best fighter. Comparing him to at least Kharn, he has vastly more impressive combat feats.

Like having a tough fight against Erebus. Who Kharn son'd so hard that he was bored doing it.

Sure, and casually stomping Loken, who beat Kharn.

As of M41, Dak'ir the Super Sayain librarian. Who flew through space and cut a space-ship in half when he reached his FINAL FORM(!) after consuming the memories of a hundred Salamanders.

In M30, the Emperor, easily.

EDIT

But Dak'ir the Librarian would even kill Kharn- he's that absurdly strong and had to let his nemesis kill him to prevent Dak'ir from blowing up Nocturne from raw psyker power. His feats however include flying through space at hypersonic speeds and cutting a Chaos Battle-Barge in half, then flying/teleporting back down to Nocturne and tossing fireballs that vaporized people/parts of space marines, and wrestling a Daemon the size of a Kaiju while flying through the air and bodyslamming it to its death inside a Volcano.

While Kharn still has the Collar of Khorne, that doesn't protect him from having Dakir seize him by the collar itself and hurl him into space.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Not counting the best dudes, Lucius is probably the best fighter. Comparing him to at least Kharn, he has vastly more impressive combat feats.

Like having a tough fight against Erebus. Who Kharn son'd so hard that he was bored doing it.

Sure, and casually stomping Loken, who beat Kharn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Not counting the best dudes, Lucius is probably the best fighter. Comparing him to at least Kharn, he has vastly more impressive combat feats.

Like having a tough fight against Erebus. Who Kharn son'd so hard that he was bored doing it.

Sure, and casually stomping Loken, who beat Kharn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Not counting the best dudes, Lucius is probably the best fighter. Comparing him to at least Kharn, he has vastly more impressive combat feats.

Like having a tough fight against Erebus. Who Kharn son'd so hard that he was bored doing it.

Sure, and casually stomping Loken, who beat Kharn.

When? In a sparring cage? Kharn doesn't try, it bores him and sees no point in sparring or arena matches or indeed any fight unless its to the death.

At Isstvaan? Loken speared on a Land Raider, doesn't count.

Put it this way. Erebus got beaten so bad he teleported away. He never saw one of the blows coming. Kharn could have killed him o the first strike but instead chose to toy with him and drag it for vengeance.

Sigismund, of course!

ThatSwellFella wrote:
Sigismund, of course!

Of course he was the best blademaster by far. He could beat any non-Primarch among the legions. But is he by far the best 1v1 fighter? For example, could he beat the huge, Titan-sized Trygon that Hive Fleet Jormungandr used to rip through a whole titan legion and a fortress wall before being brought down by anti-orbital defences? Could he do it on a cold rainy night in Stoke?

And Lucius defeated the most skilled duelist in the Luna Wolves legion so fast that neither Loken nor anyone else in the room realized what had happened until seconds later.

Lowballing is fun, is more or less my point.

ThatSwellFella wrote:
Sigismund, of course!

Can Sigismund lift several thousand tonnes and dish out punches that would sunder a Titan? Does Sigismund fly at hypersonic speeds, or toss out psychic fire capable of vaporizing people? Or cut multi-kilometer space ships in half? Because if he doesn't, he isn't the best non-Primarch fighter in 40k. When asking this question, you're better off asking who's the strongest psyker.

 Deadshot wrote:

ThatSwellFella wrote:
Sigismund, of course!

Of course he was the best blademaster by far. He could beat any non-Primarch among the legions. But is he by far the best 1v1 fighter? For example, could he beat the huge, Titan-sized Trygon that Hive Fleet Jormungandr used to rip through a whole titan legion and a fortress wall before being brought down by anti-orbital defences? Could he do it on a cold rainy night in Stoke?

In all honesty, he WOULD ATLEAST beat it up hard before it gets him killed(in the worst case )


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 Wyzilla wrote:

ThatSwellFella wrote:
Sigismund, of course!

Can Sigismund lift several thousand tonnes and dish out punches that would sunder a Titan? Does Sigismund fly at hypersonic speeds, or toss out psychic fire capable of vaporizing people? Or cut multi-kilometer space ships in half? Because if he doesn't, he isn't the best non-Primarch fighter in 40k. When asking this question, you're better off asking who's the strongest psyker.

yeh... ABHOR THE WITCH

 BlaxicanX wrote:
And Lucius defeated the most skilled duelist in the Luna Wolves legion so fast that neither Loken nor anyone else in the room realized what had happened until seconds later.

Lowballing is fun, is more or less my point.

And Sharrowkyn showed that Lucius is a cocky prick who gets his ass handed to him.

Really its all about narrative.


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 Wyzilla wrote:

ThatSwellFella wrote:
Sigismund, of course!

Can Sigismund lift several thousand tonnes and dish out punches that would sunder a Titan? Does Sigismund fly at hypersonic speeds, or toss out psychic fire capable of vaporizing people? Or cut multi-kilometer space ships in half? Because if he doesn't, he isn't the best non-Primarch fighter in 40k. When asking this question, you're better off asking who's the strongest psyker.

Black Templars have +1 to Deny the Witch rolls due to Adamantium Will .

Marbo, obviously.

 Deadshot wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
And Lucius defeated the most skilled duelist in the Luna Wolves legion so fast that neither Loken nor anyone else in the room realized what had happened until seconds later.

Lowballing is fun, is more or less my point.

And Sharrowkyn showed that Lucius is a cocky prick who gets his ass handed to him.

Really its all about narrative.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

ThatSwellFella wrote:
Sigismund, of course!

Can Sigismund lift several thousand tonnes and dish out punches that would sunder a Titan? Does Sigismund fly at hypersonic speeds, or toss out psychic fire capable of vaporizing people? Or cut multi-kilometer space ships in half? Because if he doesn't, he isn't the best non-Primarch fighter in 40k. When asking this question, you're better off asking who's the strongest psyker.

Black Templars have +1 to Deny the Witch rolls due to Adamantium Will .

Except deny the witch is just a game mechanic. "Actual" 40k, if a Beta or Alpha psyker decides you should die, you just roll over and die. And that's if the Alpha Psyker doesn't just blow up the planet.

Which does not help against blessings.

 Deadshot wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
And Lucius defeated the most skilled duelist in the Luna Wolves legion so fast that neither Loken nor anyone else in the room realized what had happened until seconds later.

Lowballing is fun, is more or less my point.

And Sharrowkyn showed that Lucius is a cocky prick who gets his ass handed to him.

Really its all about narrative.

What does that have to do with Lucius vs. Kharn?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Which does not help against blessings.

Blessings only effect spells directed at that target. They don't stop somebody like Dak'ir going full Super Sayain, then either bodyslamming you at hypersonic velocities so you're turned into a two dimensional piece of artwork on the ground, or from picking you up and flying into orbit and punting you into the void.

Or stopping time completely. There's always that.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Which does not help against blessings.

Blessings only effect spells directed at that target. They don't stop somebody like Dak'ir going full Super Sayain, then either bodyslamming you at hypersonic velocities so you're turned into a two dimensional piece of artwork on the ground, or from picking you up and flying into orbit and punting you into the void.

Or stopping time completely. There's always that.

I posted 38 seconds after you. I was referring to Deadshot's post.

Wyzilla wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
And Lucius defeated the most skilled duelist in the Luna Wolves legion so fast that neither Loken nor anyone else in the room realized what had happened until seconds later.

Lowballing is fun, is more or less my point.

And Sharrowkyn showed that Lucius is a cocky prick who gets his ass handed to him.

Really its all about narrative.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

ThatSwellFella wrote:
Sigismund, of course!

Can Sigismund lift several thousand tonnes and dish out punches that would sunder a Titan? Does Sigismund fly at hypersonic speeds, or toss out psychic fire capable of vaporizing people? Or cut multi-kilometer space ships in half? Because if he doesn't, he isn't the best non-Primarch fighter in 40k. When asking this question, you're better off asking who's the strongest psyker.

Black Templars have +1 to Deny the Witch rolls due to Adamantium Will .

Except deny the witch is just a game mechanic. "Actual" 40k, if a Beta or Alpha psyker decides you should die, you just roll over and die. And that's if the Alpha Psyker doesn't just blow up the planet.

You don't understand jokes do you?

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
And Lucius defeated the most skilled duelist in the Luna Wolves legion so fast that neither Loken nor anyone else in the room realized what had happened until seconds later.

Lowballing is fun, is more or less my point.

And Sharrowkyn showed that Lucius is a cocky prick who gets his ass handed to him.

Really its all about narrative.

What does that have to do with Lucius vs. Kharn?

Saying Person A beats Person B who beats Person C so therefore A beats C is not how you work out who's the best fighter. Everything's narrative based. In story X, A beats B, and in Y, B beats C easily. But in Story Z C could beat A and B with one arm behind his back and his eyes closed while doing Jagerbombs.

You have to look at the skill of the person in question. Lucius is certainly a skilled opponent but he has been slain by others numerous times. Sharrowkyn was the first, due to cockiness. Lord Commander Cyrius beat him. So have a number of others. Likely due to being cocky.

Kharn on the other hand, died atop a literal mountain of bodies at Terra. His feats were so impressive Khorne himself brought hik back from the dead. As mentioned, he son'd Erebus, who's no slouch himself, Erebus didn't even have a clue what happened, only that he was on his ass. Erebus had to teleport away because he knew he had no chance. He himself realised that Kharn was toying with him, and could kill him at any moment.


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 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Which does not help against blessings.

Blessings only effect spells directed at that target. They don't stop somebody like Dak'ir going full Super Sayain, then either bodyslamming you at hypersonic velocities so you're turned into a two dimensional piece of artwork on the ground, or from picking you up and flying into orbit and punting you into the void.

Or stopping time completely. There's always that.

What about a Blank? Come near him and n you're powers go bye-bye. Plus, you feel sick, bloated, despair, all that jazz. Culexus Assassin beats him

'splode the planet from across the galaxy. Problem solved.

Since we apparently include wargear, I'll give it to a Necron Lord with a Celestial Orrery.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
'splode the planet from across the galaxy. Problem solved.

That's getting silly. Its 1v1 not 1 vs X Billion.

Tbh, I'd say Alpha Level psykers should be banned if we are banning Primarchs.