The videos in the the MUST SEE: GW CORPORATE STRATEGY EXPOSED post on BoLS got me thinking about all the open letters over the years. But I feel now is a better time then ever to reach out and try and reason with GW as their customers, before it is all too late.
I did up a petition outlining a few core concerns the gaming community has with their business practices and how they should reflect upon them selves and how their strategy is not meeting customer desires or expectations.
Refocus your business model on the sale of a game and support of a gaming community vice the pure sale of collectible miniatures.
As competition from outside organizations grow and GW revenues and profits fall, your company seemingly continues to pursue a business model not in alignment with your customer base's desires and expectations.
Your business model states "We make the best fantasy miniatures in the world and sell them globally at a profit and we intend to do this forever". Realize that you produce a game, and that the models are playing pieces in that game, not the end product themselves. Without the game, there is no need to purchase Games Workshop models. They are not collectible in the same sense as scale military tanks and aircraft, nor are they as utilitarian as historical wargames miniatures, applicable to multiple game systems and supported by real world events. GW models are only useable in the context of GW games, the primary of these being Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy Battles.
I and many others collect your models to play the game. Only a fraction of the community do so purely for the experience of owning, building and painting Citadel miniatures. This is why when armies are timely updated and released, model sales for those armies jump. It is not because of marketing through White Dwarf and Online Stores. It is because people want to play with the newest "Toy". Collectors continue with these factions to keep playing the game, not just own miniatures.
Your fanbase and the dedicated gaming and hobby community ask that you adopt the following policies
1- Support gamers, conventions, and tournaments, primarily through well-developed rules and encouraging competitive play. Despite GW's desire for Warhammer to be a "Beer and Pretzels" game that is simply a reason to buy and collect GW miniatures, gamers want a system that can be used for competitive play as well. Just because this is supported does not mean that fun, narrative driven relaxed play is not possible. Appeal to both sides of the gaming community, not just the one you want to more. You cannot interface directly with the small group playing a campaign in their basement. You can with the 100+ players at a tournament. Doing so will improve your corporate image, impassion your playerbase and ultimately encourage the playing or your game which directly correlates to the sale of your miniatures. This means releasing fairly balanced, well play tested rule sets, and timely FAQs which address the issues players are encountering. The relaxed narrative players will appreciate these clearer and improved rules just as much as the cut-throat tournament gamer.
2- Reduce the number of "Direct exclusive models" and support the FLGS. Game Stores are where your community exists. It is not in their home, alone, painting. Most of the hobby may occur there, but it with the objective in mind that on the weekend they will travel down to their local friendly game store and set up across the table from someone and play a game. That is why they put all the hours into building and painting their army. Sure it may be fun to build and paint it, but it is a means to an end, not the end itself. Since the objective of collecting is to play a game, game store owners are going to promote games they can sell in their store. If majority of your product is exclusively available from your webstore, game store owners will not push your product as they lose potential sales. Without that push or those sales, their gaming community abandons GW games, and without the game they abandon GW/Citadel models.
3- Competitively price your products. You have some room to charge a slight premium because of the quality of your miniatures. But since the ultimate objective is to play a game at the end of the week, players are going to financially invest in what they can better afford. All wargaming is a luxury market. If a player can get the same amount of game time for less with another game and have just as much, if not more fun, then that is where I will invest my dollars. This is a big factor as to why so much competition now exists whereas very little did before. A potential aide to this point would be to allow sales of bits, aftermarket 3rd party add-ons, and discount online retailers. This all encourages throughput of your products, and for players to gather larger or more forces for their games. Sales for GW have only become worse with the policies that eliminate these possibilities.
4- Change your website to be hobby and gaming driven with a webstore option attached for support. This used to be the way it was. Your website should not just be an online marketplace. Your site should be the one stop shop for painting, tactics, gaming communities, upcoming tournaments, etc. etc. The webstore should then be a feature that a player can access after reading a tactica article or a painting guide. It is in game performance that drive sales of models the most, so discussing the performance and ways to use particularly models in game can only benefit you by swaying consumers to purchase it. Beautiful photos and well painted models help, but a vast majority of your playerbase knows is cannot paint as well as your webstore and White Dwarf images, so they fail to be lured in by that trap.
5- Conduct market research and increase player involvement. With the advent of social media this is easier than ever. Rather than just having youtube videos for new releases, have discussions of in progress design concepts to allow hype to be generated and discussion to occur, then systematically feed this back into your development process. Release trial rules again and gather important commentary from the players to fine tune them. Furthermore understand your consumer base and what they need and want to continue collecting, converting, painting Citadel miniatures and playing GW games rather than just assuming another huge kit or wacky limited edition gaming aide is what they need to be fed. With a generation thriving off constant connectivity and insight into early product development in virtually every market, particularly the growing tech and video games industries which manage to steal potential hobbyists daily, a policy of secrecy and blind assumption only will accomplish an alienation of the consumer.
In short, rededicate your company to supporting the selling of a game. This is your main product. Your models are the key playing pieces of this game, and will make you the most money. Without the game though, they are worth nothing.
Unfortunately, I sincerely doubt anything will come of this. GW does not care one iota what we think...they definitely don't care about their distributors (as referenced in this video) and probably only legitimately care about their share holders, who they continue to release strong dividends to.
The only way GW is going to change is when people stop buying their product. I encourage people to point out alternative game options, voice their opinions on the cost of the game, and so forth. Perhaps one day enough people will be dissuaded- if the annual reports are any measure to go by, this may already be happening. It's going to take an entire restructuring of GW management to deal with these issues, and I'm not entirely sure the current management isn't so petty as to drag the games with them to their demise.
While I agree to some extent that this likely will have no effect, to have so many gamers that would otherwise let their discontent go unvoiced gives me hope that GW won't just see it as a vocal minority, but indicative of a vast majority.
Plus it is all being sent to their investor relations email. So at least someone will notice, and it likely won't go unremarked upon at least.
GothmogLordofBalrogs wrote: While I agree to some extent that this likely will have no effect, to have so many gamers that would otherwise let their discontent go unvoiced gives me hope that GW won't just see it as a vocal minority, but indicative of a vast majority.
The problem is that GW see the internet as a whole as nothing more than a vocal minority (which is true) that has no actual correspondence to what is going on in the real world (which is not so true).
As such, they are going to pay very little attention to an internet petition... because they're going to dismiss it as the wailing and gnashing of teeth of a minority of the community that is predisposed to complain about everything they do, right or wrong.
Of course, the fact that they see it that way is exactly where a lot of the complaints are coming from in the first place, so it turns into a vicious cycle...
GothmogLordofBalrogs wrote: While I agree to some extent that this likely will have no effect, to have so many gamers that would otherwise let their discontent go unvoiced gives me hope that GW won't just see it as a vocal minority, but indicative of a vast majority.
The problem is that GW see the internet as a whole as nothing more than a vocal minority (which is true) that has no actual correspondence to what is going on in the real world (which is not so true).
As such, they are going to pay very little attention to an internet petition... because they're going to dismiss it as the wailing and gnashing of teeth of a minority of the community that is predisposed to complain about everything they do, right or wrong.
Of course, the fact that they see it that way is exactly where a lot of the complaints are coming from in the first place, so it turns into a vicious cycle...
True. This is why I tried my hardest to write it as clearly and level headed as possible. I didn't want it to seem like it was whining or ranting, but rather concern and constructive criticism.
Don't get me wrong - I agree with what you have written. But ultimately, I think the only way GW will pay attention is for the market to shift away from them entirely. At the moment, they're still scrabbling after a falling spend, and not actually looking at why it's happening. They're not going to stop and listen to what their customers have to say until they're forced to, because the guy running the show is still firmly convinced that they're doing everything right.
I'm a bit surprised that "change your hiring practices" wasn't in there since a large part of the problem is their overall staff.
They are the ones making these decisions, so if things are going to change you have to put people in place that have the capability and desire to make those changes.
When thinking of GW and communicating with them always consider the following:
Our market is a niche market made up of people who want to collect our miniatures. They tend to be male, middle-class, discerning
teenagers and adults. We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are
otiose in a niche.
The problem is that GW see the internet as a whole as nothing more than a vocal minority (which is true) that has no actual correspondence to what is going on in the real world (which is not so true).
As such, they are going to pay very little attention to an internet petition... because they're going to dismiss it as the wailing and gnashing of teeth of a minority of the community that is predisposed to complain about everything they do, right or wrong.
Of course, the fact that they see it that way is exactly where a lot of the complaints are coming from in the first place, so it turns into a vicious cycle...
Can you blame them in all honesty? The amount of hate that spews from the internet towards them is mind blowing, no wonder they consider it more toxic than pappy nurgles butt crack. Over the years instead of focussing on the good that they can do and engaging in rational conversation it has been Nerd Rage this and Your prices that. On the flip side you have the White Knighters who will defend them with almost as much vigour.
I very much doubt this petition will give them the slightest cause for concern unless it reaches millions of signatures, the community caused this backlash of non communication as much as GW did, to the point it now looks like divorce with people going away from GW onto other things.
Although people mock GW for stating they make the best miniatures in the world, in relative terms they do. Yes there are some other fantastic minis out there (and some awful GW stuff) overall they produce more gems than duds. Most of the other companies minis tend to look like GW's circa 1995.
Are they overpriced? Some are yes?
Are they greedy? For sure but then what company doesn't push it's profits as far as they can?
Are they pricing themselves out of the market? Who knows but from what I saw at Warhammerfest they're still selling by the bucket-load. Maybe that's why they get a lot of hate, because people are seeing the hobby they grew up with moving out of their price range of affordability.
Do their rules need more work? Definitely, that's not to say I and nearly every single gamer I know plays them and has fun doing so.
Should they have more than 3 games? Yes I would like to see the returns of old classics, however seeing as they impact the main games which is where GW make their profit it's unlikely to happen.
I'm not White Knighting as I find their business practices mind boggling, but I do see both sides of the scenario.
Having spent the last 20 years watching them find ever more creative ways to piss off formerly-loyal customers while slowly shutting down every possible method for those customers to make themselves heard?
Yes, absolutely I blame GW.
The complaints about GW aren't just some crazy internet 'thing'. People were complaining about GW before there were internet forums to do it on. And all of the complaints that I see online, I hear in games stores, and gaming clubs, and at tournaments, and talking to friends who game.
The thing is, instead of addressing the complaints, GW justkeeps giving people new things to complain about as well. On those odd occasions where they have seen fit to address customer complaints, they tend towards nonsense company speak that does nothing more than insult the intelligence of their customers.
The current level of vitriol directed at GW is entirely a thing of their own creation. Other companies producing miniatures games manage to maintain public forums and Facebook pages and Twitter feeds and the like without attracting the same sort of complaint. Partly because those other companies by and large aren't doing boneheaded things like suing people for using common words, or putting retailers under ridiculous limitations, or putting out unfinished game rules and expecting their customers to fill in the blanks... and partly because those other companies use those platforms for (gasp!) communicating with their customers.
The Games Workshop forums weren't a vile cesspool of scum and villainy just because they were on the internet. There were a vile cesspool of scum and villainy because Games Workshop provided their customers with a place to talk about all things Games Workshop, did a bunch of stuff that said customers weren't too keen on, and then refused to talk to those customers about what was going on. And so the complaints got louder, and more widespread, and eventually started pushing out any worthwhile discussion.
Oddly enough, though, the Specialist Games team managed to maintain an 'official' forum for some years without any of that sort of nonsense. Why? Because they got involved. They built a rapport with their fans that the core GW studio once had and frittered away by ignoring the people who made them what they are.
Games Workshop aren't a victim here. They are a business that has chosen to ignore their customers and just do what they want, when they want. The level of hostility directed at them is nothing more than the direct consequence of that behaviour.
Just out of interest: Why do people expect something made by a company to suit their needs so tightly as we see in this case, especially since they ultimately can´t please anyone in the end anyway?
I don´t go to the movies expecting the movie to be what I want it to be. And I don´t expect the phone I buy to be tailored for me exactly. Why do people seem to expect this about wargames? Why is the level of self-adaptation so low in this instance?
And, why can't one just quit and be done with it, just like one chooses not to go to a movie one knows will suck or buy that phone one doesn´t like? Why make a continous campaign about it, that I don´t understand.
Is it just that you still love the game(s), can´t let go and on some subconcious level you think voicing your thoughts on forums might make a change, or what? Vent frustration? Anger felt towards a company for their business moves and this is a way to exact revenge/give one a sense of justice?
I´m just sincerely interested. I guess the reasons also vary from person to person. Personally I quit 40K a couple of times and played other games, but I didn´t have these "issues" some seem to have, nor did I feel the need to announce the quitting or the reasons ( boredom. ) Then after a year or so I started playing again, no problems. Has happened more than once.
Signed the petition anyway, didn´t see anything in it that could hurt, on the tiny chance it will have any effect on anything.
RunicFIN wrote: I don´t go to the movies expecting the movie to be what I want it to be. And I don´t expect the phone I buy to be tailored for me exactly. Why do people seem to expect this about wargames? Why is the level of self-adaptation so low in this instance?
A movie is a one-time, small purchase. You go see it, if you don't like it you can just not watch it again.
When you buy a phone, you buy the one that best suits you at the time. If nothing changes, then sure, you've got little to complain about. In this day of the smart phone, however, people do expect phone companies to listen to feedback on operating system changes and the like, because these affect the customer's continued enjoyment of the product.
A wargame is the same, but amplified by the much higher cost of entry. you buy to get into the game. Under GW's model, you have to keep buying to stay in the game. And so people want the experience to remain one that they will enjoy.
And, why can't one just quit and be done with it, just like one chooses not to go to a movie one knows will suck or buy that phone one doesn´t like? Why make a continous campaign about it, that I don´t understand.
Speaking for myself, I've invested 20 years, God knows how many thousands of dollars, and an unmeasurable amount of creative effort into building armies for Warhammer 40000. Just choosing to pack that all away and go play something else isn't as easy as deciding to not go back to the cinema the next day.
Speaking for myself, I've invested 20 years, God knows how many thousands of dollars, and an unmeasurable amount of creative effort into building armies for Warhammer 40000. Just choosing to pack that all away and go play something else isn't as easy as deciding to not go back to the cinema the next day.
I guess this varies. I´m in the same boat aside from the years, 14 for me now. But for me it was kind of easy, then again I´m as antimaterialistic as you can get. I just sold all my armies, bought new ones when coming back and then painted and modeled them again. Now I only have my Necrons which I am in the process of painting, I´ve previously owned all WH40K armies in the past in the 1500-2000 point range aside from SOB, Eldar and IG, some multiple times ( both marines atleast twice. ) But I got pictures of them and the memories, if I end up bored with an army it´s getting sold and there´s no regrets nor do I feel bad, as they do nothing for me dusting on shelves. I can always get/paint/model more if I want to.
As a sidenote I know a guy who has atleast 3 plastic grey armies dusting on his shelves, for nigh 10 years running now, and he always swears ( and probably believes ) that one day he will paint them. And everyone else knows he won´t. I find it a bit funny and sometimes wonder how one can deceive himself so hard.
Similiarly when a unit gets nerfed or broken due to a rules update, I just sell it and buy something better. This has only happened a few times though. Certainly it annoys me like it probably does everyone, but instead of being angry and doing nothing about it aside from posting on forums I just adapt, as in the end being frustrated does nothing for you. Much easier to either quit and forget about it, or do something that makes the situation better.
"Huh, riflemen aren´t as good as they used to be. Was a good run fellas, cya. Time to get some new blood into the army."
And I don´t need to do that ofcourse, no one is forcing me.
It´s obvious though the more common way to feel is to be "attached" to your work and figs and not wanting them being made irrelevant gamewise.
I´m just sincerely interested. I guess the reasons also vary from person to person. Personally I quit 40K a couple of times and played other games, but I didn´t have these "issues" some seem to have, nor did I feel the need to announce the quitting or the reasons ( boredom. ) Then after a year or so I started playing again, no problems. Has happened more than once.
Signed the petition anyway, didn´t see anything in it that could hurt, on the tiny chance it will have any effect on anything.
There's a whole long thread about that very topic if you're genuinely interested and want to know the reasons people left.
A wargame is the same, but amplified by the much higher cost of entry. you buy to get into the game. Under GW's model, you have to keep buying to stay in the game. And so people want the experience to remain one that they will enjoy.
And that's every other game publishers model. It's odd GW get so much stick for it.
Mantics Dreadball had like 5 'Season' expansions in two years. Deadzone is on its third (iirc) expansion in a year.
FF keep releasing the same fecking X-Wing models, just in different packaging, and they're flying off the shelves (just noticed the pun. Definitely not intended).
Infinity isn't too old, and CB are already resculpting a huge portion of their original kits. For the better, I might add. They make awesome minis.
I doubt there are many starter sets that are utterly complete and require no further purchases.
A wargame is the same, but amplified by the much higher cost of entry. you buy to get into the game. Under GW's model, you have to keep buying to stay in the game. And so people want the experience to remain one that they will enjoy.
And that's every other game publishers model. It's odd GW get so much stick for it.
Mantics Dreadball had like 5 'Season' expansions in two years. Deadzone is on its third (iirc) expansion in a year.
FF keep releasing the same fecking X-Wing models, just in different packaging, and they're flying off the shelves (just noticed the pun. Definitely not intended).
Infinity isn't too old, and CB are already resculpting a huge portion of their original kits. For the better, I might add. They make awesome minis.
I doubt there are many starter sets that are utterly complete and require no further purchases.
I'm not sure that's the case Monders. With all of those games you have mentioned I could still use my original starter set box/rulebook and play the game against someone who came into it last week.
I think it's the fact that the player has the option of upgrading to those new things, rather than them being a necessity. As we all know Infinity has a new rulebook coming out in a month or so, but the rules themselves are going to be freely downloadable. Battlefront give out free rulebooks if you bought the last edition, and have online list building tools which are extremely cheap. Mantic stuff is so dirt-cheap by comparison that you can't really view it in the same way.
I could go on; it's the pace of updates, the price of them, that units are written out of new books or that you're having to pay even more for DLC and just to keep treading water. You can make strong arguments for the business model from GW's perspective. But, for the regular fan it sucks just because every other company out there is managing to survive as a company without being so veracious for the player's cash.
The funny thing is that I think a lot of the rule books would still sell for GW even if they did have a vastly cheaper or free download option. But, the problem for them then would be that they would have to make it a product worth buying for its own sake, rather than an unwanted upgrade to the last set of rules thats going to wipe out some of your old characters/units and make whatever new plastic kit has gone on sale a no-brainer purchase, but one that players are nonetheless compelled to purcase if they want to keep taking part in the game.
Having spent the last 20 years watching them find ever more creative ways to piss off formerly-loyal customers while slowly shutting down every possible method for those customers to make themselves heard?
Yes, absolutely I blame GW.
The complaints about GW aren't just some crazy internet 'thing'. People were complaining about GW before there were internet forums to do it on. And all of the complaints that I see online, I hear in games stores, and gaming clubs, and at tournaments, and talking to friends who game.
The thing is, instead of addressing the complaints, GW justkeeps giving people new things to complain about as well. On those odd occasions where they have seen fit to address customer complaints, they tend towards nonsense company speak that does nothing more than insult the intelligence of their customers.
The current level of vitriol directed at GW is entirely a thing of their own creation. Other companies producing miniatures games manage to maintain public forums and Facebook pages and Twitter feeds and the like without attracting the same sort of complaint. Partly because those other companies by and large aren't doing boneheaded things like suing people for using common words, or putting retailers under ridiculous limitations, or putting out unfinished game rules and expecting their customers to fill in the blanks... and partly because those other companies use those platforms for (gasp!) communicating with their customers.
The Games Workshop forums weren't a vile cesspool of scum and villainy just because they were on the internet. There were a vile cesspool of scum and villainy because Games Workshop provided their customers with a place to talk about all things Games Workshop, did a bunch of stuff that said customers weren't too keen on, and then refused to talk to those customers about what was going on. And so the complaints got louder, and more widespread, and eventually started pushing out any worthwhile discussion.
Oddly enough, though, the Specialist Games team managed to maintain an 'official' forum for some years without any of that sort of nonsense. Why? Because they got involved. They built a rapport with their fans that the core GW studio once had and frittered away by ignoring the people who made them what they are.
Games Workshop aren't a victim here. They are a business that has chosen to ignore their customers and just do what they want, when they want. The level of hostility directed at them is nothing more than the direct consequence of that behaviour.
As I said I'm not White Knighting for GW and some of their actions are mind boggling, but I can see why they shut up shop on the community. In essence we said the same thing.
You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time, springs to mind. Whilst you and others including myself are unhappy with the business model GW employs there are still plenty of people willing to buy their stuff (myself included) yes my spend is a lot less than it used to be, but it's still there.
I never saw the GW forums, I was taking a 14 year hiatus from the hobby but I've heard about what they were like and I've seen some of the venom from here and other sites directed at them. You yourself said it was pushing out any worthwhile discussion. So what were they to do, bearing in mind Tom Kirby has the final say and as you're well aware he's a fruit loop. They did the wrong thing and shut it down.
I can remember going to the grand open day at the oxford store, I bought my nurgle army and in my hands I have 25 blisters of minotaurs and the manager said to me at that time.... "Guess you've got a chaos warband then?" still expensive back then but made easier by the 3 for 2 of the open day offers. They have always been about the models, the games have always come second and are purely a vehicle to sell more models. It was true in the 80's and it's true now and it's why the specialist games were dropped, they didn't sell enough models and probably didn't make the money back on developing and supporting the game.
Maybe they haven't moved with the times as they should've and taken advantage of their IP, there are plenty of other companies that defend their IP with more vigour. Can't trademark a name? Well they did and until someone challenges them they have every right to try and defend it, is it right? Of course it is if the can do it. Morally right? Absolutely not! But then does morals come into business? You have the likes of Starbucks making £400m in sales and only paying £8.6m in tax. Business is business at the end of the day if they can get away with it they will try.
Games Workshop aren't interested in addressing the complaints about their games systems because they simply don't care about them, they're purely there so they can sell more models, and the vocal minority can just do one. According to every single person that has a beef with GW all their problems could be solved by 2 little things and that is to make a skirmish game of 40k and WFB, then everything would be rosey in the Wargaming hobby!
The GW forums weren't that bad, I remember going there all the time. You had the occasional trollish "WTFGW Y U NO DO X" threads, but most of it was civil discussion, and complaints were legitimate concerns.
It was no better or worse than any other forum. GW closed it because they wanted to paint a rosy picture and pretend that if you can't hear complaints, then none exist.
Like I said I never saw them, but on 1 hand I have Insaniak telling me that "There were a vile cesspool of scum and villainy because Games Workshop provided their customers with a place to talk about all things Games Workshop, did a bunch of stuff that said customers weren't too keen on, and then refused to talk to those customers about what was going on. And so the complaints got louder, and more widespread, and eventually started pushing out any worthwhile discussion." And on the other saying they weren't bad. Who knows I didn't see them? I've already said they did the wrong thing by shutting them down but as I said we all know what TK is like.
GW's ignoring criticism is only making the situation worse. Even if they don't fix the problems, letting people know that they're aware of them would still go a long way.
MWHistorian wrote: GW's ignoring criticism is only making the situation worse. Even if they don't fix the problems, letting people know that they're aware of them would still go a long way.
Exactly. Instead they act as though there are no problems at all, and their rabid fans decry anyone hinting there are problems as "haters"
I thought they had when they said 40k isn't a balanced game for tournies, it's a beer n pretzels game with your friends! Although as a British company I'm sure they said Cuppa and Rich Tea!
MWHistorian wrote: GW's ignoring criticism is only making the situation worse. Even if they don't fix the problems, letting people know that they're aware of them would still go a long way.
I agree, GW hasn't even attempted to take the first step in resolving issues.
Profits are starting to dry, I don't know how much money they have to lose before they take action. I wonder what they're thinking up there in GWHQ.
Flippa wrote: I thought they had when they said 40k isn't a balanced game for tournies, it's a beer n pretzels game with your friends! Although as a British company I'm sure they said Cuppa and Rich Tea!
The problem is, it isn't balanced for pick up games either.
Well I don't see massive balance issues in WFB but maybe I'm playing the wrong people. 40k on the other hand well.. I have Dark Angels so that should say a lot, but seeing as I don't have a bad win/loss ratio, but I agree there are some overly powerful armies out there but I've never been one to army hop. I still have my orcs n gobbos and nurgle for WFP and 40K and my Dark Angels, Howling Griffons and Imperial Guard for 40k
MWHistorian wrote: GW's ignoring criticism is only making the situation worse. Even if they don't fix the problems, letting people know that they're aware of them would still go a long way.
Exactly. Instead they act as though there are no problems at all, and their rabid fans decry anyone hinting there are problems as "haters"
This is my biggest issue with the people (rabid fans) who are satisfied with everything GW does. I don't have any problem with them loving and supporting the company. What I do take issue with is, they all seem to actually ignore valid criticisms, instead of showing concern. They should want GW to listen to the unsatisfied customers, before they become non customers.The recent numbers suggest more people are leaving than entering the GW part of the hobby. Bleeding customers isn't going to help the long term stability of the company.
Flippa wrote: I thought they had when they said 40k isn't a balanced game for tournies, it's a beer n pretzels game with your friends! Although as a British company I'm sure they said Cuppa and Rich Tea!
That's not addressing problems, that's handwaving them and saying "Go away"
Flippa wrote: I thought they had when they said 40k isn't a balanced game for tournies, it's a beer n pretzels game with your friends! Although as a British company I'm sure they said Cuppa and Rich Tea!
That's not addressing problems, that's handwaving them and saying "Go away"
I'm inclined to believe you, however I don't think GW do or indeed care. The only time they will take note is if people stop buying their models, and I don't see that happening any time soon :(.
Flippa wrote: I thought they had when they said 40k isn't a balanced game for tournies, it's a beer n pretzels game with your friends! Although as a British company I'm sure they said Cuppa and Rich Tea!
That's not addressing problems, that's handwaving them and saying "Go away"
I'm inclined to believe you, however I don't think GW do or indeed care. The only time they will take note is if people stop buying their models, and I don't see that happening any time soon :(.
Well, their sales are declining and therefore so is profit, so all it will take is a few more years of that before they start to get worried, but by then it will likely be too late.
Flippa wrote: I thought they had when they said 40k isn't a balanced game for tournies, it's a beer n pretzels game with your friends! Although as a British company I'm sure they said Cuppa and Rich Tea!
'Bombers over the Sulfa River' was a 'beer & pretzels game'.
'Brewhouse Bash' was a 'beer and pretzels game'.
WHFB and Warhammer 40K? With gazillion-page-rulebooks, a boatload of separate books for each army, and countless hordes of individual supplements and 'dataslates' and the like?
Not so much.
A Beer & Pretzels game is one that can be played with little mental effort or concentration, potentially to allow the players to socialise and imbibe said beer and pretzels while playing.
Writing a million rules and not proof-reading them before publication, and then also refusing to fix them after publication does not make a Beer & Pretzels game. Just a badly-written one.
Flippa wrote: I thought they had when they said 40k isn't a balanced game for tournies, it's a beer n pretzels game with your friends! Although as a British company I'm sure they said Cuppa and Rich Tea!
That's not addressing problems, that's handwaving them and saying "Go away"
Indeed.
Surely the whole point of a "beer and pretzels" game is that it can be played casually, and the tighter and less ambiguous the rules, the easier that becomes. Not having to repeatedly look up rules or decide things by roll-off...!
Flippa wrote: I thought they had when they said 40k isn't a balanced game for tournies, it's a beer n pretzels game with your friends! Although as a British company I'm sure they said Cuppa and Rich Tea!
That's not addressing problems, that's handwaving them and saying "Go away"
Indeed.
Surely the whole point of a "beer and pretzels" game is that it can be played casually, and the tighter and less ambiguous the rules, the easier that becomes. Not having to repeatedly look up rules or decide things by roll-off...!
Or require a few hundred dollars and many hours of time to have a playable force. A beer and pretzels game is supposed to be easy to learn and just bring out to play when you have some friends over for an evening. I guess if you stretch that definition a loooooooong way 40k kinda maybe if you squint really hard fits into that category, if your friends are explicitly coming over to play 40k and bringing their armies.
Flippa wrote: I thought they had when they said 40k isn't a balanced game for tournies, it's a beer n pretzels game with your friends! Although as a British company I'm sure they said Cuppa and Rich Tea!
That's not addressing problems, that's handwaving them and saying "Go away"
I'm inclined to believe you, however I don't think GW do or indeed care. The only time they will take note is if people stop buying their models, and I don't see that happening any time soon :(.
Calling 40K Beer and Pretzels is akin to saying you're ok with paying £15 for a single game of pool in a pub.
Also, Flippa, people ARE stopping buying GW minis, the reasons are debatable, but the facts are that revenue has fallen in two consecutive reports - that is less money is being given to GW, something that can't be explained away by fancy webstores or any other cost cutting or hand waving measures.
Honestly, your first sentence says "vice" when it should be "versus". I know it seems small, and an easy fix, but if you sent that in with grammatical errors like that or using the wrong wording, it would make it look like you didn't take time to proof read it, so why should they? I'm not trying to be anal or pick on you, I just want you fully aware of what the real-world reaction should be to the document as is. That said, fix up the errors, and I hope you have some luck. Prior experiences are against you though, I'm afraid. Good luck.
And I actually had to go back and proof read my own response, because autocorrect is an asshat that should be defenstrated.
Calling 40K Beer and Pretzels is akin to saying you're ok with paying £15 for a single game of pool in a pub.
Also, Flippa, people ARE stopping buying GW minis, the reasons are debatable, but the facts are that revenue has fallen in two consecutive reports - that is less money is being given to GW, something that can't be explained away by fancy webstores or any other cost cutting or hand waving measures.
You won't get any argument from me about the decline in sales, that's as clear as day, even to White Knighters
Hopefully with Kirby gone/going we can get some normality back to the hobby, just don't expect things to change too much. Codex/Army List creep will still be there, nerfing of some units and buffing of others will still be there.
Like I said in my previous post all it would take for GW to "Fix" the current problem scenario is to create 2 polished skirmish games in WFB & 40k and all their problems will just vanish overnight.
Anybody that wants to see an impartial view on GW need only read through my posting history. When I first joined dakka 4 or 5 years ago I was an ardent supporter of the company and dismissed almost all criticism levelled at the company as childish whinging by neckbeards who take their hobby far too seriously.
Fast forward to the present, and I still think some of the criticism is a bit too much, and many of the haters do take their hobby far too seriously, but I defiantly loathe the company, and find many aspects of their business practices to be mindbogglingly stupid.
Honestly how Kirby has kept his job for so long blows my mind, they make so many trivial errors it defies belief.
Calling 40K Beer and Pretzels is akin to saying you're ok with paying £15 for a single game of pool in a pub.
Also, Flippa, people ARE stopping buying GW minis, the reasons are debatable, but the facts are that revenue has fallen in two consecutive reports - that is less money is being given to GW, something that can't be explained away by fancy webstores or any other cost cutting or hand waving measures.
You won't get any argument from me about the decline in sales, that's as clear as day, even to White Knighters
Hopefully with Kirby gone/going we can get some normality back to the hobby, just don't expect things to change too much. Codex/Army List creep will still be there, nerfing of some units and buffing of others will still be there.
Like I said in my previous post all it would take for GW to "Fix" the current problem scenario is to create 2 polished skirmish games in WFB & 40k and all their problems will just vanish overnight.
I admire you're sentiments, I really do, and I agree Skirmish level games for the two core products would lower barrier to entry and that would make a tremendous difference, but 40K needs its ruleset thoroughly revised and codexes written with at least a thumbnail sketch of relative checks and balances already decided before even one book is published. FB, as I understand it, suffers more with an image problem than anything else, and maybe a Skirmish game to bridge the gap for beginners and less reliance on massive (expensive) blocks of models may be enough alongside a changed focus. (You know what I'd do with a massive sales force at my beck and call? Offer them more money to sell more WHFB!)
On the Kirby issue, he remains as Chairman, and the skuttlebutt has it that the new CEO is a existing staff member (no doubt hand picked) so don't expect that to change for at least a couple of years until he hits retirement age (assuming he DOES retire.)
Certain actions do suggest that someone, somewhere, is making an effort to try and turn things around, but without a mechanism to communicate with the customer base I fear they'll continue with the "good concept, flawed execution" that has dogged many of their better ideas in the last couple of years.
mattyrm wrote: Anybody that wants to see an impartial view on GW need only read through my posting history. When I first joined dakka 4 or 5 years ago I was an ardent supporter of the company and dismissed almost all criticism levelled at the company as childish whinging by neckbeards who take their hobby far too seriously.
Fast forward to the present, and I still think some of the criticism is a bit too much, and many of the haters do take their hobby far too seriously, but I defiantly loathe the company, and find many aspects of their business practices to be mindbogglingly stupid.
Honestly how Kirby has kept his job for so long blows my mind, they make so many trivial errors it defies belief.
Quoted for truth.
Personally though, I still don't think you can accuse too many people of taking the hobby "too seriously", not when we're talking about a hobby that costs thousands of dollars and years of your life. Your armies aren't just some product you mindlessly bought off of a shelf in a pre-assembled, crappily-painted state, each one practically has a part of you in it. And in the case of accidents with certain hobby tools, maybe even literally.
While I don't disagree, Sid, I am currently not working because of health issues, making wargaming, and being online talking about wargaming, one of the major focuses in my life outside of friends/family.
Even taking all that into account, there's probably a large handful of posters I could name in fairly short order who regularly make me think "you need some other thing to focus on in your life!"
timetowaste85 wrote: Honestly, your first sentence says "vice" when it should be "versus"..
'Versus' is used when to things are opposed to each other. 'Vice' is used when indicating a substitution... which is what that first sentence is about.
ALMOST UP TO 2500 SIGNATURES, PLEASE SIGN AND SHARE
Mr. Burning wrote: When thinking of GW and communicating with them always consider the following:
Our market is a niche market made up of people who want to collect our miniatures. They tend to be male, middle-class, discerning
teenagers and adults. We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are
otiose in a niche.
And this lovely bit:
Directors report: Research and development (pg 14)
"The Group does not undertake research activities. Development activities relate to the development of new product lines. The charge to
the income statement for the year in respect of development activities is detailed in note 9 to the financial statements."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MWHistorian wrote: GW's ignoring criticism is only making the situation worse. Even if they don't fix the problems, letting people know that they're aware of them would still go a long way.
This is the core reason I wrote the petition. To show, to at least someone, that there are unhappy consumers out there and that they should at least come to mind when making decisions, even if for a moment.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Additionally this little gem is in the report
In the chairman's preamble he mentions they spent 4 mil on the new webstore "The new web store allows us to sell online more efficiently. It
cost around £4 million."
But under their strategic report is this:
"Mail order
Our new online shop was launched this year and our online sales are broadly in line with the prior year."
Meaning that their fancy smancy webstore failed to do anything meaningfull
People make a big deal about quitting because they've genuinely enjoyed the product and are sad too see it go. they care,like when someone breaks up there upset because they enjoyed it
GW is doing a classic business mistake which has been the downfall of many businesses, and also being somewhat involved in the small business scene myself is the greatest mistake that companies continuously make
doing what they think is right and what they agree with business wise , rather than face the reality of the market and adjust those policies accordingly and doing things which they may hate but ultimately let their business grow
They've become comfortable and are refusing to change
Additionally this little gem is in the report
In the chairman's preamble he mentions they spent 4 mil on the new webstore "The new web store allows us to sell online more efficiently. It
cost around £4 million."
But under their strategic report is this:
"Mail order
Our new online shop was launched this year and our online sales are broadly in line with the prior year."
Meaning that their fancy smancy webstore failed to do anything meaningfull
That's not quite accurate.
He said that the new webstore would let them sell more efficiently, not that it would increase sales.
If they are seeing more or less the same sales volume through the new webstore, for less work, then that's a win.
Whether or not it's £4 million pounds worth of win would depend on the actual cost of sales figures.
And having said that, I still think that £4 million is an insane amount to spend on what looks like a straight-out-of-the-box e-Commerce solution. And not a very good one, at that.
Typically to save on cost of sales you try and find better warehousing and distribution methods.
I find it hard to believe that with the same products, a vastly different layout at 4 million GBP would reduce the costs of sales. Unless their last store took like 200 code monkeys to run and this one take like 2...
They really had the wool pulled down over their new website.
It's nice, fairly flash, but not what they should have up.
They're still working on it though, as I can now unsubscribe without needing an account.
Additionally this little gem is in the report
In the chairman's preamble he mentions they spent 4 mil on the new webstore "The new web store allows us to sell online more efficiently. It
cost around £4 million."
But under their strategic report is this:
"Mail order
Our new online shop was launched this year and our online sales are broadly in line with the prior year."
Meaning that their fancy smancy webstore failed to do anything meaningfull
That's not quite accurate.
He said that the new webstore would let them sell more efficiently, not that it would increase sales.
If they are seeing more or less the same sales volume through the new webstore, for less work, then that's a win.
Whether or not it's £4 million pounds worth of win would depend on the actual cost of sales figures.
And having said that, I still think that £4 million is an insane amount to spend on what looks like a straight-out-of-the-box e-Commerce solution. And not a very good one, at that.
The report showed that the website actually cost around £1m (which is still far too much) but they counted a lot of one-off payments this year including redundancy into that £4m figure.
Of course it speaks wonders to the credibility of Kirby when he can't even remember what the £4m cost in their finances is for.
Petition now has an article on BOLS.. as you might imagine most of the comments are either saying how stupid the idea is or saying how terribly it would be if the game went back to being competitive because of the same tired reasons (homogeneous choices, no "options") that have been repeatedly proven to be incorrect but people still spout.
Well, I wasn't terribly interested in this petition, but as of now the thing has...5,588 signatures.
That's a pretty darn significant amount, and the number is growing by the minute.
5,000+ is not an insignificant chunk of GW's market share, especially if you presume that negative feedback from 1 individual is about equal to 3 like-minded individuals. So that's about 16,000 now.
To put this into perspective, here are the total number of backers for the Zombicide Kickstarter campaigns:
Zombicide: 5,257
Zombicide Season 2: 8,944
Zombicide Season 3: 12,008
weeble1000 wrote: Well, I wasn't terribly interested in this petition, but as of now the thing has...5,588 signatures.
That's a pretty darn significant amount, and the number is growing by the minute.
5,000+ is not an insignificant chunk of GW's market share, especially if you presume that negative feedback from 1 individual is about equal to 3 like-minded individuals. So that's about 16,000 now.
To put this into perspective, here are the total number of backers for the Zombicide Kickstarter campaigns:
Zombicide: 5,257
Zombicide Season 2: 8,944
Zombicide Season 3: 12,008
I made the point in another thread when it was at ~2500 that when you take into account all the obstacles (must be a wargamer, must spend time on forums, must feel that this petition reflects their own opinion, can be arsed to sign it) then the number is pretty significant.
That number has now doubled in less than three days!
weeble1000 wrote: Well, I wasn't terribly interested in this petition, but as of now the thing has...5,588 signatures.
That's a pretty darn significant amount, and the number is growing by the minute.
5,000+ is not an insignificant chunk of GW's market share, especially if you presume that negative feedback from 1 individual is about equal to 3 like-minded individuals. So that's about 16,000 now.
To put this into perspective, here are the total number of backers for the Zombicide Kickstarter campaigns:
Zombicide: 5,257
Zombicide Season 2: 8,944
Zombicide Season 3: 12,008
I made the point in another thread when it was at ~2500 that when you take into account all the obstacles (must be a wargamer, must spend time on forums, must feel that this petition reflects their own opinion, can be arsed to sign it) then the number is pretty significant.
That number has now doubled in less than three days!
It's almost like the internet has become somewhat ubiquitous in geeky circles in the 21st century. Who'd have thunk it...?
weeble1000 wrote: It appears to be adding about 100 signatures per hour. If that rate keeps up, it could get to 10K signatures in a few days.
Sad part is even if it was 1 million, I doubt GW could care. They'd either ignore it completely or concoct some story about how it's probably just a bunch of us internet trolls with multiple fake accounts.
weeble1000 wrote: It appears to be adding about 100 signatures per hour. If that rate keeps up, it could get to 10K signatures in a few days.
Sad part is even if it was 1 million, I doubt GW could care. They'd either ignore it completely or concoct some story about how it's probably just a bunch of us internet trolls with multiple fake accounts.
Even at 5,000 signatures, there's enough for a board member or significant investor to weaponize the data. At 10,000 signatures, it could absolutely be used, and probably with decent effect, to attack Tom Kirby.
It would have more impact if it was picked up by mainstream media, like The Guardian or something. This is not outside the realm of possibility. One could make an interesting story about this alongside the most recent annual financial report, Tom Kirby's preamble, and the Chapterhouse Studios appeal.
Anybody want to wrap it all up in a bow for David Barnett?
I'm not one to over dramatise stuff, unless for sarcasm, as I think it cheapens valid arguments, but we have this survey, the CHS case and a very tenuous tickle of a hint of a rumour that GW may be tracking to post a loss this interim report...
It very much looks like the foundation of sand that the fortress wall is built on is going to topple over and knock Kirby clean out of his Ivory Tower!
weeble1000 wrote: Well, I wasn't terribly interested in this petition, but as of now the thing has...5,588 signatures.
That's a pretty darn significant amount, and the number is growing by the minute.
5,000+ is not an insignificant chunk of GW's market share, especially if you presume that negative feedback from 1 individual is about equal to 3 like-minded individuals. So that's about 16,000 now.
To put this into perspective, here are the total number of backers for the Zombicide Kickstarter campaigns:
Zombicide: 5,257
Zombicide Season 2: 8,944
Zombicide Season 3: 12,008
I made the point in another thread when it was at ~2500 that when you take into account all the obstacles (must be a wargamer, must spend time on forums, must feel that this petition reflects their own opinion, can be arsed to sign it) then the number is pretty significant.
That number has now doubled in less than three days!
It's almost like the internet has become somewhat ubiquitous in geeky circles in the 21st century. Who'd have thunk it...?
But isn't only a tiny insignificant handful of haters supposed to hang out on the Internet?
People do complain because we want to play the game, buy the minis and support the company. But we also need to get something back for our investment, even if it is some kind of respect.
I hope someone read it and see that we're not trolls. We're a fan base beating and old drum that cannot continue to be ignored.
GW: Do what other companies do and at least aknowledge that we exist!
Automatically Appended Next Post: 6000 people, who shall we say averagely spend £20 a month? That's not even one box for many releases, that could now mean the people who have signed this could equate to over 10% of GW's annual revenue.
Assuming only £20 on average, my gut says that is very modest.
Think it could have used an edit. Think it would have been better as a mass letter campaign. Will sign nonetheless. Very impressed with numbers so far.
Jimsolo wrote: Think it could have used an edit. Think it would have been better as a mass letter campaign. Will sign nonetheless. Very impressed with numbers so far.
I'll sit and watch this one. It feels futile. January will prove whether we're in an actual trend or not (my money is firmly on "we are") of their spiral down. They have only doubled down on the tired strategy that got them the worst report in years while releasing the highest volume (I believe) of new products to date including Poster Boys + 40k rules.
At this point, we'd have to crowd fund an IndieGoGo campaign to put the majority board through an MBA course, assuming they aren't just riding it out with Kirby to punch as soon as the new fall guy CEO is in place.
Futile or not, the time it took for you to write this post (which was largely a pointless post) is about the same amount of time it would take to simply sign a petition.
No reason not too. I signed it at 2300 or so signatures thinking it was a waste of time. But its more than doubled since, so maybe its worth adding yours to the growing list.
Futile or not, if you have time to write a post saying you wont sign something for no real reason, you have the time to sign the petition for little reason.
I dont know. Just sign man, its quick and easy. If it fails it would hardly have taken seconds from your life really. If it passes, then yay.
I can't say I buy any GW models but in the 20 years I did I didn't play many of their games, maybe a yearly a yearly 40k (maximum) and the occasional specialist game even less, just saying.
The Division Of Joy wrote: If it hits 10k, then what? Genuine question btw, I've only used change.org to support things that will be dicussed in the commons.
Then... nothing.
Its just an online petition, I highly doubt that GW will even recognise its existence let alone do anything about it.
The Division Of Joy wrote: If it hits 10k, then what? Genuine question btw, I've only used change.org to support things that will be dicussed in the commons.
Then... nothing.
Its just an online petition, I highly doubt that GW will even recognise its existence let alone do anything about it.
Sadly this. It's doubtful they would care, but as before there's always a glimmer of hope that they'll take notice.
The Division Of Joy wrote: If it hits 10k, then what? Genuine question btw, I've only used change.org to support things that will be dicussed in the commons.
Then... nothing.
Its just an online petition, I highly doubt that GW will even recognise its existence let alone do anything about it.
Sadly this. It's doubtful they would care, but as before there's always a glimmer of hope that they'll take notice.
It would be better if investors took notice. It's obvious GW management isn't concerned. Maybe they would be if investors started holding them accountable for their actions.
The Division Of Joy wrote: If it hits 10k, then what? Genuine question btw, I've only used change.org to support things that will be dicussed in the commons.
I don't know if GW even has e-mail and if they do they're probably like one of those people that get an e-mail, then never check it and forget their password.
After all, the interwebz is a scary place.
The Division Of Joy wrote: If it hits 10k, then what? Genuine question btw, I've only used change.org to support things that will be dicussed in the commons.
Then... nothing.
Its just an online petition, I highly doubt that GW will even recognise its existence let alone do anything about it.
Sadly this. It's doubtful they would care, but as before there's always a glimmer of hope that they'll take notice.
It would be better if investors took notice. It's obvious GW management isn't concerned. Maybe they would be if investors started holding them accountable for their actions.
This.
It needs to be placed in front of parties that have influence, whether that be GW senior management, the managers of the investment funds who hold interests or simply the mainstream media - if it reaches 10k then that number of customers voicing displeasure against such a relatively small company in concert like this becomes a reasonably interesting story, perhaps even outside of the Economics pages.
I signed this when it was in the early 200s, and I'm not one for petitions, but with no avenues to communicate with GW, this is worth doing. Democracy and all that.
One thing I find very interesting though, on the subject of vitriolic communication and the community's behavior is the reaction to the Facebook pages for Forgeworld and Digital Editions. Both pages were well run, with speedy responses, good interaction, previews and no small amount of "human touch," the tone of writing and nature of the pages (DE answering FAQs right on there, FW encouraging people to post their projects, hopes and wish lists, etc) created a remarkably positive environment. I genuinely miss both pages. The only negativity I ever saw there were problems with orders and the like, posted by people with no reading comprehension to see "contact this email address regarding orders," but still the person(s) running the page made the effort to respond and resolve issues.
And then the pages vanished overnight, for no reason I could see. Forgeworld, not to be slowed down opened up their blog; nothing heavy, but with weekly mini-previews and some kind of insight into what's going on in their world, and they make an honest effort to show up to all sorts of events, GW and not, design team in tow open to discussing just about anything. And despite a pricing scheme so far into the realm of insanity as to make me blanche every time I open my Death Korps drawer and recall the cost, there is nothing but enthusiasm for FW products and their general ethos.
It's an extremely interesting comparison within the same bloody company, and the biggest difference, to me, is FW not only listens to the community and makes a solid effort, but has a passion for what they do, acting as hobbiests, wargamers and 40k enthusiasts who get to shape a small section of the universe and game how they think it ought to be with an eye for balance, theme and aesthetics which puts GW core to shame, and in return, are able to succeed with obscene pricing, and actually form one of the few growth drivers GW has.
BoW makes my head hurt too, much less restrictive than WS, but the general level of knowledge of the posters I see on display there appears to be much lower than here.
Gives some perspective on how so many objectively bad things that happen seem to go by with little reaction.
Azreal13 wrote: BoW makes my head hurt too, much less restrictive than WS, but the general level of knowledge of the posters I see on display there appears to be much lower than here.
Gives some perspective on how so many objectively bad things that happen seem to go by with little reaction.
and this is the reason I avoid both of those forums.
Medium of Death wrote: Why delete a petition thread? That makes zero sense, how could there be any ramifications for the site due to it?
Boggles the mind.
It's that attitude of "if you criticise you don't care or are a hater" which makes zero sense.
Because Warseer.
They delete anything if they think there will be even the one quintillionth of a chance GW legal may come down on them. Talking about leaked images is also verboten for the same reasons.
Medium of Death wrote: Why delete a petition thread? That makes zero sense, how could there be any ramifications for the site due to it?
Boggles the mind.
It's that attitude of "if you criticise you don't care or are a hater" which makes zero sense.
Because Warseer.
They delete anything if they think there will be even the one quintillionth of a chance GW legal may come down on them. Talking about leaked images is also verboten for the same reasons.
In their defense, the thread was going off-topic since somebody brought up the old fallacy that GW is cheaper than PP, and some other people jumped on the use of the word "vice" instead of "Versus" as a reason why the petition was poorly written and should be ignored. So they might have moved it to the moderator area and clean it up, and then move it back (which is a really weird way of doing that, and I say that as a moderator on a large MMO gaming site). Or it could be because they're afraid of GW.
It would be better if investors took notice. It's obvious GW management isn't concerned. Maybe they would be if investors started holding them accountable for their actions.
Investors took notice a while ago and sold their shares..... I'm not sure we seen the reaction to that yet. Mighty wheels take time to turn....or so the excuse for protracted executive indecision goes!
It would be better if investors took notice. It's obvious GW management isn't concerned. Maybe they would be if investors started holding them accountable for their actions.
Investors took notice a while ago and sold their shares..... I'm not sure we seen the reaction to that yet. Mighty wheels take time to turn....or so the excuse for protracted executive indecision goes!
Those shares had to go somewhere else. Still plenty of people (or groups) invested in GW.
Medium of Death wrote: Why delete a petition thread? That makes zero sense, how could there be any ramifications for the site due to it?
Boggles the mind.
It's that attitude of "if you criticise you don't care or are a hater" which makes zero sense.
Because Warseer.
They delete anything if they think there will be even the one quintillionth of a chance GW legal may come down on them. Talking about leaked images is also verboten for the same reasons.
Warseer isn't the only place, although it has always been quite turgid there. I've seen a couple of forums turn into collections of timid little mice and the moderators become delete-happy enforcers, and it's all because they were afraid of a legal notice and no more website. And it would seem those fears aren't completely unfounded as some sites have indeed gone, regardless of whether those legal notices were actually viable. It's really, really sad, and perhaps the thing that upsets me most about modern, corporate-attitude GW, that they can be so cruel and impersonal.
As for this petition? It won't make a scrap of difference, and will be brushed away in the same way as social media with a comment of "they are all trolls, you can't make them happy regardless of what we do, we're not going to bother". You're better off voting with your wallet, play games other than 40k/WFB (not hard, as both games are shadows of their former selves) and encourage your friends to do the same. If the current trends continue a couple more bad financial results and perhaps the company board will look at why they are making less money than they used to, you will then hopefully see some change of attitudes and a move towards the things mentioned in the petition text.
I disagree with the request to make the online exclusives available to FLGS stores. While I'm sure there are a few things the LGS are at a disadvantage to, more often than not, they still have web exclusives on their shelves. Why? I'm not sure myself, but it happens. Maybe it's a problem elsewhere, but not where I live. As far as I'm aware, a FLGS in the United States has the power to do that already, but since this point is more about the request being redundant than it is wrong... My other reason why I'm against this is because it's unrealistic to expect a store to carry the best choices if they constantly have to throw out the old to make room for the new. Physical space. That's what it comes down to. They're already required to provide prime shelf space for the new releases. My FLGS barely has more than 1 of any single games workshop product no matter how high the demand may be. I become increasingly more impressed by how stretched yet condensed the product line is becoming in-store. All that said, I still agree with the concept, I just don't see it as a problem worth bringing up.
Quarterdime wrote: While I'm sure there are a few things the LGS are at a disadvantage to, more often than not, they still have web exclusives on their shelves. Why? I'm not sure myself, but it happens.
According to comments from store owners in the past, there are two 'categories' of GW Direct items at the moment. One of those categories can be Special Ordered by stores, but at a reduced discount (so they don't make as much profit on it as a similarly-priced regular items). The other is not available to stores at all.
My other reason why I'm against this is because it's unrealistic to expect a store to carry the best choices if they constantly have to throw out the old to make room for the new. Physical space. That's what it comes down to. They're already required to provide prime shelf space for the new releases. My FLGS barely has more than 1 of any single games workshop product no matter how high the demand may be..
This misses the point somewhat. Having the entire range available to stores doesn't mean that stores automatically have to stock them (although I've always thought it a little silly of stores to not stock the full range, as it has a carry on effect when customers walk in for that slow-moving item and can't find it in hand... they're more likely to just go elsewhere next time).
But stores should have the choice to stock as much of the range as they see fit.
Keep in mind, the Direct Only range isn't just obscure stuff that people don't buy. It currently includes almost every Space Marine character. For a time after the current Eldar Codex was released, it included Wave Serpents.
Not being able to stock core products is bad for stores.
There will come a point where they'll have to. I'm not saying 10k signatures will be it, which is sad enough in itself, but GW are a publicly owned company, and if outside agencies are concerned enough to put pressure on them (debatable in itself, but the other option is to dump shares, neither of which is good for GW) then whether GW themselves care not becomes irrelevant.
While it seems like a lot, for perspective, the current signatories would have to be spending on average ~£1300 per head, per month to account for GW's last reported annual revenue. Taking that into account, I think we'd be at the top end to consider 10k people accounting for 10% of GW's revenue (that's still £130ish per head, per month, and I'm not sure I like that number as an average) so, realistically, 10k people may represent 5-7% of their customers?
A significant number, especially when you consider they're likely representative of further people who may feel the same but aren't aware of the petition, but one could argue that more customers have simply stopped spending based on the last couple of reports.
Nobody should be under any illusions that 10k would have GW over a barrel, they'd barely notice in the grand scheme if we all stopped spending for all time tomorrow, but it isn't so small a number to be irrelevant either.
xraytango wrote: Warseer tends to be the home of the most rabid white knights, either that or they live in fear of the GW legal team of crack paper tigers.
That forum is amazing at banning posters at the drop of a hat, deleting anything deemed contentious and generally fading inch by inch from the limelight it once held.
Bols is like that for trouble as well, when the mandelbaum debacle was at it's worse in it's most recent incarnation, they freely allowed him to post and deleted anything questioning him.
Again we can be thankful to dakka's Admin and Mods for a far longer leash and tolerance of a much broader spectrum of opinions.
No, an unusual use, but a correct use nonetheless, 'vice' can mean 'as a substitute for' or 'in lieu of' which isn't a definition you see often, but it is perfectly valid.
xraytango wrote: Warseer tends to be the home of the most rabid white knights, either that or they live in fear of the GW legal team of crack paper tigers.
That forum is amazing at banning posters at the drop of a hat, deleting anything deemed contentious and generally fading inch by inch from the limelight it once held.
Bols is like that for trouble as well, when the mandelbaum debacle was at it's worse in it's most recent incarnation, they freely allowed him to post and deleted anything questioning him.
Again we can be thankful to dakka's Admin and Mods for a far longer leash and tolerance of a much broader spectrum of opinions.
A lot of forums do that. It's just (IMHO) plain old cronyism which the wargaming industry is rife with.
There have been numerous times on several forums where someone has been criticized (rightly or wrongly) and anyone that tried to defend them has had their posts deleted or been banned leaving only the critics and those people who claimed or have "inside information" because they are buddies with "such and such".
People are gullible and, at least to me, seem to be more willing to believe negative things about a person rather than positive. If you try to defend someone then you are either "shilling" or "same-faXXing".
That's just an easy way of discrediting someone, and it works well which is why people use those tactics so much.
Azreal13 wrote: There will come a point where they'll have to. I'm not saying 10k signatures will be it, which is sad enough in itself, but GW are a publicly owned company, and if outside agencies are concerned enough to put pressure on them (debatable in itself, but the other option is to dump shares, neither of which is good for GW) then whether GW themselves care not becomes irrelevant.
While it seems like a lot, for perspective, the current signatories would have to be spending on average ~£1300 per head, per month to account for GW's last reported annual revenue. Taking that into account, I think we'd be at the top end to consider 10k people accounting for 10% of GW's revenue (that's still £130ish per head, per month, and I'm not sure I like that number as an average) so, realistically, 10k people may represent 5-7% of their customers?
A significant number, especially when you consider they're likely representative of further people who may feel the same but aren't aware of the petition, but one could argue that more customers have simply stopped spending based on the last couple of reports.
Nobody should be under any illusions that 10k would have GW over a barrel, they'd barely notice in the grand scheme if we all stopped spending for all time tomorrow, but it isn't so small a number to be irrelevant either.
I think it is at least fair to triple the number, so 10K sigs should be about equal to 30K like-minded customers. In that case, you're only looking at about $700 per customer per month to equal GW's last reported revenue. But you can easily carve out the revenue that GW does not get from its regular customers, such as licensing fees. When you care that out, the number gets smaller.
But what happens if you carve out revenue that isn't directly related to customers playing the game?
We know that 40K used to be about 50% of total GW revenue, it is probably proportionally more now, but let's call it 50%. You're down to $350 per customer per month. That's creeping close to the realm of actual possibility, isn't it? Now, I doubt many GW customers spend $4,200 dollars on GW products in a year, but I think that 10K signatures is a far more significant proportion of GW's customer base than you are estimating.
I think it is at least fair to triple the number, so 10K sigs should be about equal to 30K like-minded customers.
So how could you get those extra people to sign the petition? It's easy to claim there would be more people out there that feel the same way, and I do agree with your assessment that there are more, but wouldn't it be better to actually get them to sign?
If not, even though it's likely there are far more people than the ones that signed, that number could be dismissed easily by "corporate double-speak".
I liken it to the Retail Industries' 1-7-11 theory. Easy to claim and sounds plausible, but hard to actually prove.
Well, I've contacted people who operate some of the higher traffic wargaming news blogs/sites, and, to their embarrassment, have yet to receive any sort of response directly nor see anything prominent displayed on any of the concerned sites.
I can only assume that this hasn't happened because, actually, I can't come up with a good reason because this is wargaming news, in the narrowest sense, and the fact it hasn't received coverage from these sites suggests there are other agendas at work, because 10000 people voicing their agreement on any issue should be news, regardless of any other personal feelings on behalf of the correspondent involved.
It's been almost a week, so I'm assuming it's not happening.
@Weeble
I agree I'm probably being pessimistic, but that's largely down to conservative numbers being easier to defend against the cavalry charge Ive been anticipating that is now conspicuously overdue.
I think it is at least fair to triple the number, so 10K sigs should be about equal to 30K like-minded customers.
So how could you get those extra people to sign the petition? It's easy to claim there would be more people out there that feel the same way, and I do agree with your assessment that there are more, but wouldn't it be better to actually get them to sign?
If not, even though it's likely there are far more people than the ones that signed, that number could be dismissed easily by "corporate double-speak".
I liken it to the Retail Industries' 1-7-11 theory. Easy to claim and sounds plausible, but hard to actually prove.
As I understand, it is pretty standard to assume a 3-1 ratio with respect to negative feedback and a 10-1 ratio with respect to positive feedback.
As far as how to get those people to sign, the 3-1 ratio presumes to estimate the number of individuals who will never sign, regardless. If one more person signs, it means that this person effectively represents another two individuals who will never sign.
No, an unusual use, but a correct use nonetheless, 'vice' can mean 'as a substitute for' or 'in lieu of' which isn't a definition you see often, but it is perfectly valid.
Not sure where you get that idea. Here is Merriam Webster's definition:
a : moral depravity or corruption : wickedness
b : a moral fault or failing
c : a habitual and usually trivial defect or shortcoming : foible <suffered from the vice of curiosity>
2
: blemish, defect
3
: a physical imperfection, deformity, or taint
4
a often capitalized : a character representing one of the vices in an English morality play
b : buffoon, jester
5
: an abnormal behavior pattern in a domestic animal detrimental to its health or usefulness
6
: sexual immorality; especially : prostitution
Signed, to be honest I'm unsure where this is going to go, is it going to be emailed how will games workshop be receiving it? I do hope it works, good work BTW
insaniak wrote: They're not going to stop and listen to what their customers have to say until they're forced to, because the guy running the show is still firmly convinced that they're doing everything right.
This! is pretty much it.
What will make matters worse is if he can find many different areas to blame he can still say his approach is "right" even if results were not as intended.
All we can do is wait for the shareholder rebellion (which will not happen) or the Kirby golden parachute exit plan when he cannot wring any more dividends out of GW by reducing overhead costs.
Yes, no GW bashing, just one "vocal minority" in charge of the company in need of ejection.
152 to go...
It's time to repost anything you posted before, as the fence-sitters need a nudge.
10k is the number the UK government set as a talking point in there petition site. It seems as though that's good enough for those who run a country, so GW should think it important enough, too.
As for them paying attention at all, it's the shareholders that need a kick. Does anyone have anything to do with the big investors?
oxforddictionaries.com wrote:vice2
Line breaks: vice
Pronunciation: /ˈvʌɪsi /
PREPOSITION
As a substitute for:
the letter was drafted by David Hunt, vice Bevin who was ill
I have to be honest, I read a great amount and it wasn't something I had ever come across before. But there you go, learn something new!
It's them damned Romans...
Though to be fair, it is something you knew - and just didn't realize it. Same reason we have things like Vice Presidents. They aren't addicted to hookers and blow (well - they might be, family traditions and all...) - they are substitutes for the real deal.
10k is the number the UK government set as a talking point in there petition site. It seems as though that's good enough for those who run a country, so GW should think it important enough, too.
You'd think that, but...
GW won't respond. GW don't talk to the media. The Pope gives interviews to the BBC. GW don't. Let that one sink in.
Now we are 10k all of us 10k people should send an email with a link to the petition and flood their inboxes. That way we know they havent not seen it.
Swastakowey wrote: Now we are 10k all of us 10k people should send an email with a link to the petition and flood their inboxes. That way we know they havent not seen it.
Swastakowey wrote: Now we are 10k all of us 10k people should send an email with a link to the petition and flood their inboxes. That way we know they havent not seen it.
too bad they dont check it
If we send even 2000 emails to all available GW email addresses there is no way they wont notice... I think
I think, ultimately, it is down to the OP what happens next, he says he did not expect 10k sigs on the petition himself, so I suspect he is as surprised as the rest of us.
Personally, I agree with those who feel directly approaching GW is not likely to achieve anything, but subscribe to the idea that getting it out to the mainstream econmomics media or to the relevant persons at the larger investors would apply greater pressure.
Azreal13 wrote: I think, ultimately, it is down to the OP what happens next, he says he did not expect 10k sigs on the petition himself, so I suspect he is as surprised as the rest of us.
Personally, I agree with those who feel directly approaching GW is not likely to achieve anything, but subscribe to the idea that getting it out to the mainstream econmomics media or to the relevant persons at the larger investors would apply greater pressure.
Question is, Will games workshops "parents" do anything about it? I'm a man of action, when is op sending it off?
BTW, where do you guys email GW, is it worth us all emailing it
hiveof_chimera wrote: Question is, Will games workshops "parents" do anything about it? I'm a man of action, when is op sending it off?
BTW, where do you guys email GW, is it worth us all emailing it
If someone finds an e-mail that's worthwhile, please post it. All I can ever find is customer support.
hiveof_chimera wrote: Question is, Will games workshops "parents" do anything about it? I'm a man of action, when is op sending it off?
BTW, where do you guys email GW, is it worth us all emailing it
If someone finds an e-mail that's worthwhile, please post it. All I can ever find is customer support.
hiveof_chimera wrote: Question is, Will games workshops "parents" do anything about it? I'm a man of action, when is op sending it off?
BTW, where do you guys email GW, is it worth us all emailing it
If someone finds an e-mail that's worthwhile, please post it. All I can ever find is customer support.
Well...
I can say that GW uses a pretty standard corporate format for email addresses. FirstName.LastName@gwplc.com This applies across the board (top to bottom...very top...).
You can see examples of this naming format on their various trade account rep pages...like this one here:
Games Workshop does respond to the e-mail that stockholders use to mail their concerns to. Not being a stockholder I don't remember this e-mail address, but we had someone here on Dakka post a reply they got when they sent a letter to it.
All you stockholders should write to this address and post a link to this petition.
Thanks for the support guys. I didn't think 10k possible when I first wrote it.
When I created the petition I had to provide an email POC for who I am petitioning. I used the ivestor relations one. From what I can understand about change.org is that each time it is signed it is sending the impact statement summary blurb to investorrelations@gwplc.com (so they are probably auto deleting by now). I later also added some corporate emails by guessing firstname.lastname@gwplc.com. Seemed to work for several of them.
As for "What now" well I for one am going to print and mail the petition and all the signatures to the CEO and COO.
I started to include them on the petition, but realized those are just investor firms and not the investors themselves. They all have a bunch of business men and venture capitalists and whatnot just pooling money and investing in anything and everything that seems profitable. Just seemed like they would have no real effect, at least to me. I could be wrong though.
One thing to keep in mind though. They are just business men who would like to have an easy job, without much headache.
GW is such a small potato, that they would not even blink to dump it and pick up something else that doesn't create noise. It wouldn't even be a rounding error to them.
That effect is significant, even if the end result is just an intern sending an email to GW asking what is this noise and what are you going to do about it.
In order to make noise you need media attention or something.
In my opinion nothing will happen unless you do something that will get the interest of online media or something. Even if its spamming their emails or I dont know but something that will get the attention of many people not just GW.
If enough people hear about it or if it becomes something thats well known among the internet then change is more likely to happen.
Gotta get more "wow!" factor and attention. At the moment we are a bunch of angry quiet customers not angry potential customers.
I dont know how to explain it very well, but something more shocking needs to be done to get everyones attention. We clearly have the support, just not the coverage.
Perhaps find whoever it was that did the articles about GWs last financial reports and their definition of 'good', they might be interested in a follow up.
GothmogLordofBalrogs wrote:
I started to include them on the petition, but realized those are just investor firms and not the investors themselves. They all have a bunch of business men and venture capitalists and whatnot just pooling money and investing in anything and everything that seems profitable. Just seemed like they would have no real effect, at least to me. I could be wrong though.
The possible effect could be worth it. It basically just means needing to write an introductory paragraph explaining why you are contacting their shareholders. Not a huge time investment to send a few emails. And who knows, maybe one of the fund managers who was already iffy on GW due to revenue and profit declines will get clued in as to what's going on with GW's customer base.
It probably wont' get any interest, but if they've got column inches to fill and they're bored it might get somewhere. And GW's bizarre tendency not to talk to the media EVEN WHEN IT'S GOOD STUFF may have annoyed them.
This really needs media attention to get to the next step.
Submitting petitions are one thing, 10k people signing one is another. If the target doesn't listed, make sure those who they listen to about hear instead.
WayneTheGame wrote: Think I might take one for the team and repost to Warseer since the previous thread disappeared without a trace.
Posted it. Let's see if it stays around or if I get banned for not towing the party line.
Just seen it. The responses are typical Warseer.
I'm afraid to look.
Just typical 10k signatures doesn't indicate anything, people still buy, and one person still picking apart bits of the petition to show how poorly written it is (and, ergo, GW should ignore it because it's not professional)
The guy literally picked up one mistake and was all like " This is so shoddily done no wonder why GW don't reply". And the other complaint was about a petition of about of whatever number of people a minority of 60/???? decide to go back to playing the game (CoD) instead of boycotting it, and he's all like " petitions are so worthless"
hiveof_chimera wrote: The guy literally picked up one mistake and was all like " This is so shoddily done no wonder why GW don't reply". And the other complaint was about a petition of about of whatever number of people a minority of 60/???? decide to go back to playing the game (CoD) instead of boycotting it, and he's all like " petitions are so worthless"
AKA typical Warseer. But hey, at least it wasn't BOLS. Those people are completely brainwashed. There's this one guy who posts on everything saying how GW is awesome for him, he doesn't run into any of the issues that people claim (ergo they must be lying), and he's so excited for everything they do, and finds ways to dismiss/ignore anything to the contrary. Like one time his argument was that GW has to charge high prices because they're publicly traded, while companies like Mantic and Warlord are private corporations so can get away with lower prices. And he also claimed that GW provides good value with all the extra bits too.
hiveof_chimera wrote: The guy literally picked up one mistake and was all like " This is so shoddily done no wonder why GW don't reply". And the other complaint was about a petition of about of whatever number of people a minority of 60/???? decide to go back to playing the game (CoD) instead of boycotting it, and he's all like " petitions are so worthless"
AKA typical Warseer. But hey, at least it wasn't BOLS. Those people are completely brainwashed. There's this one guy who posts on everything saying how GW is awesome for him, he doesn't run into any of the issues that people claim (ergo they must be lying), and he's so excited for everything they do, and finds ways to dismiss/ignore anything to the contrary. Like one time his argument was that GW has to charge high prices because they're publicly traded, while companies like Mantic and Warlord are private corporations so can get away with lower prices. And he also claimed that GW provides good value with all the extra bits too.
I guess this guy is working for GW in its marketing department if any.
Or maybe it's JJ by himself.
Anyways I still think getting attention in the media is better than simply getting GW attention.
But I have no idea how to get about it. Usually areas like tumbler and facebook can sometimes find their way into the media but I dont think thats a good area to get this out for our group.
Someone mentioned BBC I think, wouldnt it then be a good idea to look at all the authors on news areas and email them a story pitch or something on this topic?
Someone may know more than I on the matter but I think its the way to go.
WayneTheGame wrote: Think I might take one for the team and repost to Warseer since the previous thread disappeared without a trace.
Posted it. Let's see if it stays around or if I get banned for not towing the party line.
Just seen it. The responses are typical Warseer.
I feel like I have a black eye from some of the other forums...
BUT I obviously did something right, because for every negative post/comment, I get 100 signatures.
The best is attacks on grammar, especially when the posters don't bother to use it themselves. I know there are likely some typos (I just caught one now) and a few errors for "proper english", but a petition should be plain conversational english, as to appeal to the widest audience.
As far as media attention goes, I am an American, so there is really no media organization here that would cover it. I doubt that monster that is the BBC would pick it up untill after other smaller media outlets did. Are there any good newspapers in the UK to reach out to? Anyone want to help do so?
Now to get back to painting my old Metal Furioso...
WayneTheGame wrote: Think I might take one for the team and repost to Warseer since the previous thread disappeared without a trace.
Posted it. Let's see if it stays around or if I get banned for not towing the party line.
Just seen it. The responses are typical Warseer.
I feel like I have a black eye from some of the other forums...
BUT I obviously did something right, because for every negative post/comment, I get 100 signatures.
The best is attacks on grammar, especially when the posters don't bother to use it themselves. I know there are likely some typos (I just caught one now) and a few errors for "proper english", but a petition should be plain conversational english, as to appeal to the widest audience.
As far as media attention goes, I am an American, so there is really no media organization here that would cover it. I doubt that monster that is the BBC would pick it up untill after other smaller media outlets did. Are there any good newspapers in the UK to reach out to? Anyone want to help do so?
Now to get back to painting my old Metal Furioso...
Heya, i said something similar on warseer and i'll say something similar here i guess. Granted it was writing a letter on an established site and posting on forums to get people to add their emails, but what was the specific point of this? Yeah the haters are going to hate, but if you've gone back to painting your old model, where's the passion? This is one of the reasons why gw will ignore the petition no matter how many signatures it gets: the guy writing it doesn't seem to care not long after the big 10k event. Buying a tyrannocyte when it comes out? I'm not intending to 'hate' here but i'm aware i'll be coming across as one. What was the point other than to show people you could get 10,000 likes?
I agree in principle with your petition, and would have probably gone further in suggestions myself, but why even click the like button if the guy who wrote it is going to leave it there. What's your plan now that you've got a respectable level of signatures? As i said in warseer, the purpose of a petition is the threat of boycott. Are you, the author of the petition, considering boycott if the petition is dismissed? If all i have to do is click a button to theoretically get what i want and i don't think its worth the time and effort, what makes you think gw is going to consider making these changes?
A year ago I quit buying minis from GW. I wrote them a letter detailing why I wouldn't be a customer anymore, and I've recently signed Goth's petition.
This is about the extent of what a normal person can do, and maybe, eventually, it will have an impact. I'm not going to waste more time and effort on it than that.
I plan on keeping tabs on the community and what GW might do about the problem, if anything, but that's about it.
LOL the new thread I posted a few days ago just vanished from Warseer. I posted in their help section asking why, I wonder what reason (if any) I'll be given, or if I'll just get banned for daring to question them. I have to say speaking as a moderator on a large (the largest?) MMO gaming site (MMO Champion) I find that behavior insane from moderators to just delete a thread with actual discussion for no reason.
WayneTheGame wrote: Think I might take one for the team and repost to Warseer since the previous thread disappeared without a trace.
Posted it. Let's see if it stays around or if I get banned for not towing the party line.
Just seen it. The responses are typical Warseer.
I feel like I have a black eye from some of the other forums...
BUT I obviously did something right, because for every negative post/comment, I get 100 signatures.
The best is attacks on grammar, especially when the posters don't bother to use it themselves. I know there are likely some typos (I just caught one now) and a few errors for "proper english", but a petition should be plain conversational english, as to appeal to the widest audience.
As far as media attention goes, I am an American, so there is really no media organization here that would cover it. I doubt that monster that is the BBC would pick it up untill after other smaller media outlets did. Are there any good newspapers in the UK to reach out to? Anyone want to help do so?
Now to get back to painting my old Metal Furioso...
Heya, i said something similar on warseer and i'll say something similar here i guess. Granted it was writing a letter on an established site and posting on forums to get people to add their emails, but what was the specific point of this? Yeah the haters are going to hate, but if you've gone back to painting your old model, where's the passion? This is one of the reasons why gw will ignore the petition no matter how many signatures it gets: the guy writing it doesn't seem to care not long after the big 10k event. Buying a tyrannocyte when it comes out? I'm not intending to 'hate' here but i'm aware i'll be coming across as one. What was the point other than to show people you could get 10,000 likes?
I agree in principle with your petition, and would have probably gone further in suggestions myself, but why even click the like button if the guy who wrote it is going to leave it there. What's your plan now that you've got a respectable level of signatures? As i said in warseer, the purpose of a petition is the threat of boycott. Are you, the author of the petition, considering boycott if the petition is dismissed? If all i have to do is click a button to theoretically get what i want and i don't think its worth the time and effort, what makes you think gw is going to consider making these changes?
It was to speak out to them as the consumer what we want to change. If you read the comments on the petition itself, many people have said they have stopped. But A general boycott is impossible. Too many fans. What this is supposed to be is a caution flag, an early one, before they loose even more business and market share to the competition and end up becoming a background wargaming entity. Think of GW like Sega or Atari. They were kings of the video game industry, but lost out in the long run. I don't want GW to be Sega or Atari. I want them to succeed. That is the core concern.
Think of the petition as more of an open letter to the company.
I am going to physically send copies to them, and if anyone on here that is in the UK can get attention of any media source, that would be amazing. I didn't expect it to get to 10k, so now that it is this big finding a way forward is the next step.
I said I was going back to painting my dread (that I have had since the 90's. Strip and repaint) because I was simply logging off the computer for the night and settling in to watch some QI and hobby a bit. That is the passion isn't it. To be in love with the game and hobby so much that you weather the storm. The petition is attempting to end the storm though, or at least get GW to realize that it is raining outside.
I am more than open to suggestions to take it forward from here and would love the help.
I'm going to be signing it in a few minutes but I've had an odd idea. There are celebrities that play GW games right? Would it be worth emailing them somehow and getting a bit of weight behind this? It can't hurt, right?
Huffington post and New York times maybe? They ran spreads on EA and simcity...if you find a gaming journalist they might take a look into tabletop news. Worth a shot.
Valkyria Chronicles for PC? Awesome!
I friggin' love that game. Similar mechanics to Infinity.
'Dat game... Let me tell you what...
But yes, if you get a news outlet to actually pick up this thing (on a slow news day), then you might have weight to it? Probably aim for the gaming blogs or something and start there.
Valkyria Chronicles for PC? Awesome!
I friggin' love that game. Similar mechanics to Infinity.
'Dat game... Let me tell you what...
But yes, if you get a news outlet to actually pick up this thing (on a slow news day), then you might have weight to it? Probably aim for the gaming blogs or something and start there.
Agreed, start with gamer blogs and work your way up.
Ok, so I've drafted a message this afternoon and sent it off to a few outlets, please feel free to copy paste if you wish, don't worry about sending it to the same organisations multiple times, this is more likely to garner attention.
Hello,
I thought this might be of interest to the business news team, Games Workshop PLC, who have posted substantial falls in both revenue and profits in their previous two financial reports, are the subject of a petition requesting a change in focus from their customers that at time of writing has attracted over 10 000 signatures. I believe this would be sufficient to get a petition discussed in parliament were it to to be relevant?
The crux of the matter is that Games Workshop produces model kits based on it's own science fiction and fantasy universes for use in a tabletop wargame.
In recent times it appears (this is largely speculation as amongst the chief criticism levelled at GW is their insular attitude and lack of communication, they have in the last two years closed most of their social media pages down) they have been more determined to sell their models as collectibles and the game has become a secondary consideration, the quality of the game, and therefore people's enjoyment, has suffered. The petition is requesting a change in focus to make the game a priority once more.
10000 signatures and falling sales would suggest that their customer base, or a large part, is dissatisfied, despite the somewhat tenuous excuses provided by Tom Kirby (GW's CEO and Chairman) but as Mr Kirby claimed that Games Workshop do not perform any sort of market research in their last report because it is "otiose" (apparently it essentially means redundant, I had to look it up!) then it is quite possible that they are unaware of this, or if they are aware, have little idea why.
I hope you feel, as I do, that a PLC with falling revenue and thousands of dissatisfied customers who appears to be doing very little to address those issues might be of interest to your readers, especially any who may have a financial interest without being actively engaged with the company's products (and therefore be unaware of issues affecting it) and is worth maybe a few column inches, or at least a story on the website.
I never expected GW to run tournaments and generally they are better off in the hands of gamers cause they can change things as they like vs GW who had a system they had to follow, but people (at least some I know) have a "can't someone else do it" mentality.
There are things I chastise GW over and things I cut them a bit of slack over.
There are a few things I still buy from them (Snotlings, paint) and if I had more money I'd spend more but I don't so I am not going to (that and the BJD's are a more expensive hobby, hell the one in my avatar, who is smaller then a pop can cost as much as an Imperial Knight-not counting her clothes, coffin, shoes, eyes, etc)...
I agree the prices ought to be a bit lower, but you can't go too low in a niche hobby, I mean, it's not like its widespread. I saw a BJD company do the same (ironically enough, the one that made the doll in my avatar). They're prices were real low and people bought them, but they couldn't make enough and went out of business.
It's a fine line with niche hobbies...But that's not my real point, more a rambling thought.
Hell if GW just made the rules better I'd be fine and dandy, however that is subjective since I may dislike 7th ed and some may think it's great.
My opinions don't weigh more, even if I'd like them to lol
SO, before this goes off the first page, has anything come of this or has the OP just let it drop? Seems a shame to get so many people behind one cause only to do nothing with it.
. Let's see if it can hit 10K.
mouth! SEGA has been trying to turn crap around outside of burning the effigy that is the blue hedgehog.
