RecentIyl I see the trend of messages about people bashing against GW about a lot of things. The practices of GW really got a lot of people to question thei hobby choices. Some left GW, selling their collections. Others keep their collections waiting to someday made use of them again.

The funny thing is that GW remains silent trough it all. I heard Jake Thornton from Mantic talk about his company, saw the Corvus Belli Carlos and others talk about their game and their practices. Saw some people from MERCS miniatures on kickstarter...But never saw anyone from GW anywhere on the web, on forums, or interviews.

I'm not a child raised in tabletop gaming. I collected boardgames for the last 10 years. Been collecting all kind of games for at least 15 years: Magic, Dreamblade, Heroclix, FFG games...You name it. I always been a sucker for miniatures, and started trying to enter this world for sometime now. Of course GW site was place of awe by their models and fluff.

But then, maybe GW can't do anything to remain in the market? Maybe the behemoth needs this business model to survive this era of less players. Old players cling to the investment they made on huge armies from GW. New players are growing in a world that have multiple videogames, social networks and many activities that compete for the attention and funds of them. As many of we oldies played with army men, the new kids don't seem to have the patience for the long term commitment for building, painting and reading lots and lots of rules to game. Besides, the rising costs seem to getting people away from big army games: Those that already have them, continue to carry the flame. But those starting, like myself, find an impossible to climb mountain.

How long can Mantic, Wyrd, Corvus Belli, Warlord Games and many other smaller companies keep their lines going? How long for them to have to resort to the GW way to keep some profit? I would like to know if other game giants have fallen, and how they fell.

I don't know how the tournaments and events go around the world. Wandering the web I find many ressorting to 15mm wargaming and skirmish games.Can those companies remain profitable when the thinking is to buy some models and that's it?

Keraun0s wrote:
Can those companies remain profitable when the thinking is to buy some models and that's it?

I'm no longer interested in the larger picture of "GW vs gaming" or however it gets framed these days, but I wanted to just pick up on this last point, as it does sometimes come across as a mystery to people only involved in the larger GW games. It's true that for a lot of skirmish games, you only need to buy a handful of figures to get hold of a legal, decent force (My Confrontation Wolfen never number above 7 or 8, Infinity usually uses 10 etc). However, the two things that work in a skirmish game's favour here are:

a) You can keep adding single models to a force, for a small cost each time. Due to the nature of the games, these small additions can actually have a major impact on how the rest of the army operates, so you can often refresh your collection for less than £10 a time.

b) Due to the low cost of getting hold of a functional force for a faction, you can easily branch out into other factions with completely different play styles. There isn't the same necessary startup cost of going to a GW store and dropping £hundreds on your new codex plus however many boxes of basic guys you need, before even getting to the cool stuff.

Keraun0s wrote:
RecentIyl I see the trend of messages about people bashing against GW about a lot of things. The practices of GW really got a lot of people to question thei hobby choices. Some left GW, selling their collections. Others keep their collections waiting to someday made use of them again.

The funny thing is that GW remains silent trough it all. I heard Jake Thornton from Mantic talk about his company, saw the Corvus Belli Carlos and others talk about their game and their practices. Saw some people from MERCS miniatures on kickstarter...But never saw anyone from GW anywhere on the web, on forums, or interviews.

The difference between GW and the other companies you mentioned, Mantic PP etc, is that GW is a coloration that is on the stock market. I don't think the other companies are corporations or on the stock market either (please correct me if I am wrong). The way I see it, you don't see corporations or companies on the stock market "talking" to their companies. Coca Cola, Apple (the way GW seems to be taking their points from) are not open as PP and Mantic and the smaller companies are.

That is one of the reasons why GW remains silent. They don't have to be, but that is the way it seems corporations on the stock market seem to act.

It is a fiction to think that other companies are doing things the 'GW way'.

Mantic Games, for example, has a business model based on responding to holes in the market created by what GW has stopped doing. That Mantic Games can even have this business model is indicative of the fact that these market niches remain active, even if GW has abandoned them.

Mantic's slogan is "Building big armies," and the company initially built itself on providing relatively inexpensive models with which to play large model count games at a comparatively reasonable cost.

Plenty of table top wargamers play large model count armies, especially when it comes to historicals.

Also, as Riquende suggests, I suspect that plenty of people who play skirmish games have sizable collections, even if they only put 6-10 models on the table at one time.

How long can Mantic, Wyrd, Corvus Belli, Warlord Games and many other smaller companies keep their lines going

Like any other business?

I'm confused? Does being in a niche preclude normal business practice?

As long as these companies understand their market they will continue and no doubt thrive as a result.

Maybe the behemoth needs this business model to survive this era of less players.

Citation please? Where have these players gone? Maybe they have gone to the other companies you name and their products?

 Mr. Burning wrote:

How long can Mantic, Wyrd, Corvus Belli, Warlord Games and many other smaller companies keep their lines going

Maybe the behemoth needs this business model to survive this era of less players.

Citation please? Where have these players gone? Maybe they have gone to the other companies you name and their products?

I was under the impression that what the OP meant was 'in this era of less GW players.' At least that's how I took it, because the TTG market is so obviously growing while GW's player base is so obviously shrinking. It isn't merely a loss of market share owing to market expansion.

weeble1000 wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

How long can Mantic, Wyrd, Corvus Belli, Warlord Games and many other smaller companies keep their lines going

Maybe the behemoth needs this business model to survive this era of less players.

Citation please? Where have these players gone? Maybe they have gone to the other companies you name and their products?

I was under the impression that what the OP meant was 'in this era of less GW players.' At least that's how I took it, because the TTG market is so obviously growing while GW's player base is so obviously shrinking. It isn't merely a loss of market share owing to market expansion.

Ah. I see that now.

If I read the flag right KeraunOs is from Brazil so English probably is not his first language so he deserves credit for asking a complex question.

(My Portuguese knowledge begins and ends at vinho verde and vinho tinto.)

To address the 15mm portion of the query, it has been a popular scale for 30+ years for Ancients and Napoleonic. I don't think it represents a retreat from GW so much as greater awareness among modern internet based wargamers of the historical alternatives to GW.

Various comments from GW stand out, the attitude that their customers 'buy what we sell', and the testimony of Merritt where he describes their customers favourite activity being 'buying GW'. This is the rot of GW, the hubris and taking their customer base for granted. But with the prices the way they are, obvious attempts to gouge by pushing ever bigger armies along with a rash of supplements on top of each codex that rightfully should be in a single book, and piss poor product like Finecast, it all adds up to people shopping elsewhere.

The OP forgets that unlike Warmachine and others like them, don't own/rent bricks and mortar stores to sell their products, that's a huge impost on overall revenue.

 Achaylus72 wrote:
The OP forgets that unlike Warmachine and others like them, don't own/rent bricks and mortar stores to sell their products, that's a huge impost on overall revenue.

It's also an idea that stopped being good in the early 90s, but GW is stuck in that area. A lot of their overall issues could be solved by getting rid of the stores (at least outside the UK, and maybe inside as well), but they still have this idea that the GW store is the center of the "hobby" and it forces a lot of their stupid decisions like screwing with independent retailers because technically independent retailers are their competition.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Achaylus72 wrote:
The OP forgets that unlike Warmachine and others like them, don't own/rent bricks and mortar stores to sell their products, that's a huge impost on overall revenue.

It's also an idea that stopped being good in the early 90s, but GW is stuck in that area. A lot of their overall issues could be solved by getting rid of the stores (at least outside the UK, and maybe inside as well), but they still have this idea that the GW store is the center of the "hobby" and it forces a lot of their stupid decisions like screwing with independent retailers because technically independent retailers are their competition.

Which is compounded by the fact that the GW stores really aren't the places to get games in. One or two tables that *may* be open, cramped environment...it really doesn't make any sense.

 Accolade wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Achaylus72 wrote:
The OP forgets that unlike Warmachine and others like them, don't own/rent bricks and mortar stores to sell their products, that's a huge impost on overall revenue.

It's also an idea that stopped being good in the early 90s, but GW is stuck in that area. A lot of their overall issues could be solved by getting rid of the stores (at least outside the UK, and maybe inside as well), but they still have this idea that the GW store is the center of the "hobby" and it forces a lot of their stupid decisions like screwing with independent retailers because technically independent retailers are their competition.

Which is compounded by the fact that the GW stores really aren't the places to get games in. One or two tables that *may* be open, cramped environment...it really doesn't make any sense.

Ironically, they are getting rid of the brick and mortar stores. There is no longer a GW-run store within an hour's drive of my house. (There used to be two).

That's not too surprising. The B&M are literally tanking GW. And for good reason! There is absolutely no strong reason to go to their store (other than the manager's a pal of yours).

Their selection isn't necessarily much better than a FLGS, so you end up ordering online to have it delivered to their store...rather than just to your house. There is barely any gaming space, plus the only two games you can play in the store are 40k and WHFB (if I'm clear on it, you're not even supposed to play specialists games there since they aren't in production anymore). Plus you have the threat of dealing with a pushy store manager (who I can't blame for being pushy, his or her job is on the line constantly from creeping upper management).

The whole experience just comes off very antagonistic, and in the most positive frame it's something like a cult of personality.

GW sinks a huge amount of their money into these unfunded, understaffed stores with some hair-brained idea that they'll out-compete a normal FLGS for what, the "privilege" of playing in an actual GW store??

I say all this because I remember the old-fashioned store. 4-5 tables, demo games as well. Specialists games were sold and the store had a normal staff of 3-5 people who built terrain, ran campaigns, and generally supported a welcoming atmosphere (to a noticeable degree more-so than the current model). What we have now screams of the "you buy what we make/offer" thing, and *shocker* it's not working.

As to the silence of GW, it's been that way for a long time. Not to say it is entirely deaf and dumb, but GW has never fostered the kind of openness or dialogue with it's fans that some other games companies have. The relationship between GW and it's customers has tended to be very one way. A sort of We'll provide you with amazing models and you will buy them"

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If I read the flag right KeraunOs is from Brazil so English probably is not his first language so he deserves credit for asking a complex question.

(My Portuguese knowledge begins and ends at vinho verde and vinho tinto.)

To address the 15mm portion of the query, it has been a popular scale for 30+ years for Ancients and Napoleonic. I don't think it represents a retreat from GW so much as greater awareness among modern internet based wargamers of the historical alternatives to GW.

Just to piggyback, you don't see it much here, but Sci-fi 15mm has really exploded on the indie gaming scene. In the past 5-10 years there have been a multitude of small companies starting up producing 15mm figures and vehicles. 15mm sci-fi still hasn't had it's "major label" debut, but Tomorrows War was deliberately 15mm compatible and was very successful, and it's not alone. Consider the Sci-fi rulest Gruntz 15mm which is THE bestselling product on Wargames Vault and proving very popular with fans of this scale.

15mm fantasy is also growing, though not quite at the same rate as SF.

Shops make sense in various ways for GW but not the way they actually use them now.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Shops make sense in various ways for GW but not the way they actually use them now.

I read a report (don't know how scientific it was) after the 2008 crash that retail stores that reduced their manpower (to save money) did overall worse than the ones who stayed with the same number and that stores that added people tend to do even better (better service -> people were willing to spend more money, or something like that was speculated). I think it was generally retail related (no specific industry) so who knows how it would affect GW but it think some time after that they started with the one man stores. Although I think their sales/revenue/profit was already stagnating (or at least not performing convincingly) at that point.

weeble1000 wrote:


Mantic's slogan is "Building big armies," and the company initially built itself on providing relatively inexpensive models with which to play large model count games at a comparatively reasonable cost.

Quantity over quality!

The GW store in Cincinnati seems to be quite busy quite often. I don't ever go, but I do follow their FB feed, and it looks like they have multiple games every weekend and two or three days during the week where people are playing.

So, you know, anecdotal evidence is pretty worthless in this instance, as the anecdotes vary wildly.

If you are in an area with a great manager at your local GW, there will be lots of stuff going on there. If all the manager does is try to hard sell everyone with a pulse that walks through the door and doesn't really ever do events or even actively disuades people from playing or painting there, you'll have a crappy GW location.

GW just hired someone to go to all the stores and see what the successful ones are doing differently and if GW is lucky, they'll actually identify and encourage the path that works best by making it company wide policy for their retail locations.

That said-- it's entirely possible that the hard seller guys will out perform the community builders and company wide policy will become the shutting down of all non-sales activity.

To answer one of the OP's questions, look at TSR and how they fell. They were freaking D&D, yet they fell and fell hard. It's an interesting bit of history with a lot of lessons to be learned.

Keraun0s wrote:
How long can Mantic, Wyrd, Corvus Belli, Warlord Games and many other smaller companies keep their lines going? How long for them to have to resort to the GW way to keep some profit?

For as long as they keep churning out games/mini's and customers keep snapping them up. Warlord Games is bringing out dozens of new lines a month (in twice-weekly emailed), new army books an expansions; they've currently got 3.5 games systems on the go (Hail Caesar, Black Powder, Bolt Action, Bolt Action: Tank Wars) with supplements, and a 4th main line coming (Beyond The Gates Of Antares). Same for Mantic; the dreadball and deadzone games are doing great. Infinity and Malifaux are booming.

I don't think any of these companies will need to the current GW way to remain profitable, since 2 of that list are run by people from the days when GW was growing.

The only company that seems to be struggling in this market is GW; because pretty much everyone that made GW great is now working against them (Priestly, Stallard, Sawyer, Renton, McVey, Cavatore, Perry's).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mario wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Shops make sense in various ways for GW but not the way they actually use them now.

I read a report (don't know how scientific it was) after the 2008 crash that retail stores that reduced their manpower (to save money) did overall worse than the ones who stayed with the same number and that stores that added people tend to do even better (better service -> people were willing to spend more money, or something like that was speculated). I think it was generally retail related (no specific industry) so who knows how it would affect GW but it think some time after that they started with the one man stores. Although I think their sales/revenue/profit was already stagnating (or at least not performing convincingly) at that point.

The 1-man store model is crippling them, whilst generating terrible customer service. They no longer have staff for things like Games Days, the opening hours are less predictable as they close due to holidays/illness/bathroom breaks, they don't have time to supervise gaming AND attend to customers, or keep on top of anything.
They make perfect sense in the short term though, and that seems to be where GW is focused - trying to make the next report look so bad and hopefully things will magically improve for the next one. It's guaranteed disaster in the long run but they're too desperate to do anything about it.

When other companies (apart from Wyrd) start producing decent quality miniatures I'll be tempted to say enough is enough with GW, but the likes of Mantic have a long way to go. Prodos are getting there, but still a way off.

And before I'm shot down, I play Dreadball, Deadzone and have backed the Mantic Dungeoncrawler. I just can see the standard isn't there.

As for the 'single man stores are failing' and the 'the stores are pointless' arguements, I would bet that the demographic they are going for (the younger audience, who are dragging mum and dad in) it's pretty good. And they are more new-friendly than most FLGS, which cater for the more established fan.

When the GW stores stop bringing in new players, I'll be the first to say it's time for a rethink. You can point out a drop in profits, but as much as 'experts' on here can shout, there is some business expertise looking at these things, and they know more about the way to run things than someone that vents on here.

I still think they're just biding their time before they drop the new Mordheim.

The 'why don't GW release Mordheim/Necromunda/Bloodbowl/WHQ' thing is a funny one, but it's actually pretty obvious right now.

It wouldn't be hugely cost effective to diversify into an area that's already crowded. They have two products that are leaders in their field (large scale futuristic and large scale fantasy) and until that comes under threat why take a risk?

Would all the WarmaHordes/Malifaux players come back if Mordheim dropped? I play both because Mordheim went, but those two are too established now to claw me back. If Mordheim came back, would new players get into it? Probably, but straight away, when you get a taste for a skirmish game, you have these other systems there with an established power-base, so theres little point in GW taking a risk for a fairly low reward.

Replace the above with Necromunda/Deadzone and Warpath etc, Dreadball/Bloodbowl.

Like I said, when a company can sell me 40 goblins with the same CONSISTANT quality, for cheaper than GW, and back that up with better quality lords and heros that GW, I'm in.

Same with 40K. Give me a choice of 4-5 box sets of troops please Mantic, at the same level of detail, poseability and conversion potential as a Space Marine line. I'll snap them up and so will a shed load of others.

So you're saying GW should just stick to two games and never try anything else because someone else is doing it?

I mean, its even funnier that those games only exist because GW withdrew them in the first place.

The Division Of Joy wrote:
When other companies (apart from Wyrd) start producing decent quality miniatures I'll be tempted to say enough is enough with GW, but the likes of Mantic have a long way to go. Prodos are getting there, but still a way off.

And before I'm shot down, I play Dreadball, Deadzone and have backed the Mantic Dungeoncrawler. I just can see the standard isn't there.

As for the 'single man stores are failing' and the 'the stores are pointless' arguements, I would bet that the demographic they are going for (the younger audience, who are dragging mum and dad in) it's pretty good. And they are more new-friendly than most FLGS, which cater for the more established fan.

When the GW stores stop bringing in new players, I'll be the first to say it's time for a rethink. You can point out a drop in profits, but as much as 'experts' on here can shout, there is some business expertise looking at these things, and they know more about the way to run things than someone that vents on here.

I'd say that Infinity's minis are far and away a higher quality than GW's.
I'd also say that PP's metals are on par, but sadly, not their plastic, yet. They are getting better though.
Malifaux's plastics are almost exceptional. Give them a try.

The Division Of Joy wrote:
but as much as 'experts' on here can shout, there is some business expertise looking at these things, and they know more about the way to run things than someone that vents on here.

These are the experts that don't do research and are responsible for a company in serious decline? It's unwise to assume that just because someone is getting paid to make decisions, that they actually know what they are doing. Especially when all of the evidence points the other way. What's their long term game plan? Wait for the internet to die off and their competition to just go away like Pokemon* did?

*Pokemon X&Y (released 1 year ago - October 2013) sold 12.3 million copies. Even at £10/copy ($15), that exceeds GW's total revenue, when it's probably 3 times that. And that's ignoring the merch and card games.

Herzlos wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
but as much as 'experts' on here can shout, there is some business expertise looking at these things, and they know more about the way to run things than someone that vents on here.

These are the experts that don't do research and are responsible for a company in serious decline? It's unwise to assume that just because someone is getting paid to make decisions, that they actually know what they are doing. Especially when all of the evidence points the other way. What's their long term game plan? Wait for the internet to die off and their competition to just go away like Pokemon* did?

*Pokemon X&Y (released 1 year ago - October 2013) sold 12.3 million copies. Even at £10/copy ($15), that exceeds GW's total revenue, when it's probably 3 times that. And that's ignoring the merch and card games.

And the internet's still around. Weird, I know.

The Division Of Joy wrote:
When the GW stores stop bringing in new players, I'll be the first to say it's time for a rethink. You can point out a drop in profits, but as much as 'experts' on here can shout, there is some business expertise looking at these things, and they know more about the way to run things than someone that vents on here.

Yet a lot of experts have said that GW is declining...

The Division Of Joy wrote:
When other companies (apart from Wyrd) start producing decent quality miniatures I'll be tempted to say enough is enough with GW, but the likes of Mantic have a long way to go. Prodos are getting there, but still a way off.

And before I'm shot down, I play Dreadball, Deadzone and have backed the Mantic Dungeoncrawler. I just can see the standard isn't there.

As for the 'single man stores are failing' and the 'the stores are pointless' arguements, I would bet that the demographic they are going for (the younger audience, who are dragging mum and dad in) it's pretty good. And they are more new-friendly than most FLGS, which cater for the more established fan.

When the GW stores stop bringing in new players, I'll be the first to say it's time for a rethink. You can point out a drop in profits, but as much as 'experts' on here can shout, there is some business expertise looking at these things, and they know more about the way to run things than someone that vents on here.

What I highlighted above is the exact reason for the stores. Gw has long said that gamers in their first year participating in the hobby will spend 3x as much as those who are already established, on average. Those annoying 10-12 year olds that come into the store are the ones who keep the doors open. Thats how stores fail is not catering to those customers who bring in mommy and daddy who pull out a credit card and swipe it for $100 a month or those parents who walk into the gw where the christmas gift list is and swipe that card for $1100(yes i have seen that numerous times).

The stores are designed to cater to the brand new player, not experianced gamers.

Herzlos wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
but as much as 'experts' on here can shout, there is some business expertise looking at these things, and they know more about the way to run things than someone that vents on here.

These are the experts that don't do research and are responsible for a company in serious decline? It's unwise to assume that just because someone is getting paid to make decisions, that they actually know what they are doing. Especially when all of the evidence points the other way. What's their long term game plan? Wait for the internet to die off and their competition to just go away like Pokemon* did?

But they have their principles. And guys named "Peter" who stick to them.

"End of times for GW"
No, nice decline though.
Overall revenue is down and standard methods for increasing market-share are not being pursued as their strategy according to their financial report.
They are still seeking internal cost savings to show a profit, this can only go so-far.
At the absolute worst case, them or their IP would be bought before they ever go bankrupt.

"End of tabletop war gaming"
The day people get sick of models and/or board games is the only time I see that happening.
If we all are firmly glued to our tablets and cannot be bothered to interact with the physical world the statement would then have merit.
GW is not the entirety of tabletop war gaming no matter how much they want you to think so.

I like GW fluff and some models are quite nice, I have a big collection and can get reasonable games-in with my friends.
I find more than ever though, we are playing many other games and having a ton of fun.
I hope GW steps up their game before their fans leave them behind for something more shiny...

 MWHistorian wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
When other companies (apart from Wyrd) start producing decent quality miniatures I'll be tempted to say enough is enough with GW, but the likes of Mantic have a long way to go. Prodos are getting there, but still a way off.

And before I'm shot down, I play Dreadball, Deadzone and have backed the Mantic Dungeoncrawler. I just can see the standard isn't there.

As for the 'single man stores are failing' and the 'the stores are pointless' arguements, I would bet that the demographic they are going for (the younger audience, who are dragging mum and dad in) it's pretty good. And they are more new-friendly than most FLGS, which cater for the more established fan.

When the GW stores stop bringing in new players, I'll be the first to say it's time for a rethink. You can point out a drop in profits, but as much as 'experts' on here can shout, there is some business expertise looking at these things, and they know more about the way to run things than someone that vents on here.

I'd say that Infinity's minis are far and away a higher quality than GW's.
I'd also say that PP's metals are on par, but sadly, not their plastic, yet. They are getting better though.
Malifaux's plastics are almost exceptional. Give them a try.

I play Malifaux, and being a Cryx player I have a tonne of metal PP. The metal isn't anywhere as good at the latest plastic GW stuff, and the plastic is about the same. Good models yes, the Bane Thralls being a good plastic release for example, but not GW quality IMHO.

Inifinity is on a par with 2nd Ed 40K, nothing better. I've seen the occasional better sculpt, but nothing at the level of what is being pushed out on a consistant basis at Nottingham.

Malifaux is outstanding, very beginner unfriendly (another thing that GW beats others at) but astonishing. As a gremlin player, fiddly construction has made my brain hurt on a number of occasions.

Like I said, when Wyrd can produce that level for a high model count game, I'll change my opinion. Same for Mantic,Prodos or PP

Asfar as I´m concerned the "end times" of GW and/or tabletop wargaming only exist in some peoples heads but not in reality.

I´m also pretty sure that 10 years from now the situation regarding all manufacturers will have changed quite a bit. A lot of games have the "ooh new and shiny" -aura on them for many players ( new compared to GW´s games anyway ) and after 10 years they will have lost that to most. Warmachine, Infinity and the like will just be old tabletop wargames in the year 2024, for example.

It will be interesting to see what Privateer Press for example will come up with to keep things interesting if you think about the next 10 years. Epic epic epic epic epic Warcasters won´t cut it, and neither will 20 more warbeasts called Geraph/Leraph/Zeraph/Meraph. I´m pretty sure some manufacturers will have grown quite a bit and some ( smaller ones ) will have fallen, so yeah. will be interesting to see.

The Division Of Joy wrote:


Inifinity is on a par with 2nd Ed 40K, nothing better.

This is objectively and entirely incorrect. It very nearly invalidates everything you have said.



Versus



Edit: Dakkadakka is crap today, Google Tyranids Second Edition. Choose a photo. Proceed to cringe. Seriously, I tried to link like eight photos, all failing. Try here works now, weird issue.

The modern Infinity release are blowing away modern GW releases in aesthetic and artistic capabilities at a smaller scale in a more expensive material at cheaper cost to the player per model (character model comparison). Swing and miss.

 RunicFIN wrote:
[...]

It will be interesting to see what Privateer Press for example will come up with to keep things interesting if you think about the next 10 years. Epic epic epic epic epic Warcasters won´t cut it, and neither will 20 more warbeasts called Geraph/Leraph/Zeraph/Meraph. I´m pretty sure some manufacturers will have grown quite a bit and some ( smaller ones ) will have fallen, so yeah. will be interesting to see.

I'd like to see some company other than GW pick up a licence to a film or TV franchise such as Game Thrones and produce a proper 28mm miniature wargame for it. It worked very well for GW with the Lord of the Rings SBG*, at least whilst the films were popular and prominent with the general public and before the bubble burst.

There are a lot of franchises I'd love to see as a table top miniature wargame. Halo, Game of Thrones, Mass Effect, Bioshock...

I don't really have faith anymore in GW's ability to produce an effective licenced tie-in game on par with the SBG. But Privateer Press, Warlord Games or one of the other up and coming big players and leading rivals to GW may one day have the resources to do it.

* Incidentally, the SBG is also the game that introduced me to miniature wargaming. I would never have heard of Gamesworkshop were it not for the LOTR films and the SBG, and I would not have gone on to pick up Warhammer 40K as a second game. Also, ironically, I've more or less abandoned 40K and not played for 2 years (because I now dislike the cluster feth it became with 6th and 7th Ed) in favour of going back to the LOTR SBG which I still enjoy.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:
[...]

It will be interesting to see what Privateer Press for example will come up with to keep things interesting if you think about the next 10 years. Epic epic epic epic epic Warcasters won´t cut it, and neither will 20 more warbeasts called Geraph/Leraph/Zeraph/Meraph. I´m pretty sure some manufacturers will have grown quite a bit and some ( smaller ones ) will have fallen, so yeah. will be interesting to see.

I'd like to see some company other than GW pick up a licence to a film or TV franchise such as Game Thrones and produce a proper 28mm miniature wargame for it. It worked very well for GW with the Lord of the Rings SBG*, at least whilst the films were popular and prominent with the general public and before the bubble burst.

There are a lot of franchises I'd love to see as a table top miniature wargame. Halo, Game of Thrones, Mass Effect, Bioshock...

I don't really have faith anymore in GW's ability to produce an effective licenced tie-in game on par with the SBG. But Privateer Press, Warlord Games or one of the other up and coming big players and leading rivals to GW may one day have the resources to do it.

* Incidentally, the SBG is also the game that introduced me to miniature wargaming. I would never have heard of Gamesworkshop were it not for the LOTR films and the SBG, and I would not have gone on to pick up Warhammer 40K as a second game. Also, ironically, I've more or less abandoned 40K and not played for 2 years (because I now dislike the cluster feth it became with 6th and 7th Ed) in favour of going back to the LOTR SBG which I still enjoy.

The only game I'm considering from GW right now is The Hobbit. Saddly (or not), I don't have any Fantasy or 40K army to hold me by memories of better days. Is it worth it to try and collect the LotR/Hobbit line?

Keraun0s wrote:


The only game I'm considering from GW right now is The Hobbit. Saddly (or not), I don't have any Fantasy or 40K army to hold me by memories of better days. Is it worth it to try and collect the LotR/Hobbit line?

Do you think Fantasy and 40k models are overpriced? Because the Hobbit is entirely more dollar per model cost and great deal is in Finecast.

Keraun0s wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:
[...]

It will be interesting to see what Privateer Press for example will come up with to keep things interesting if you think about the next 10 years. Epic epic epic epic epic Warcasters won´t cut it, and neither will 20 more warbeasts called Geraph/Leraph/Zeraph/Meraph. I´m pretty sure some manufacturers will have grown quite a bit and some ( smaller ones ) will have fallen, so yeah. will be interesting to see.

I'd like to see some company other than GW pick up a licence to a film or TV franchise such as Game Thrones and produce a proper 28mm miniature wargame for it. It worked very well for GW with the Lord of the Rings SBG*, at least whilst the films were popular and prominent with the general public and before the bubble burst.

There are a lot of franchises I'd love to see as a table top miniature wargame. Halo, Game of Thrones, Mass Effect, Bioshock...

I don't really have faith anymore in GW's ability to produce an effective licenced tie-in game on par with the SBG. But Privateer Press, Warlord Games or one of the other up and coming big players and leading rivals to GW may one day have the resources to do it.

* Incidentally, the SBG is also the game that introduced me to miniature wargaming. I would never have heard of Gamesworkshop were it not for the LOTR films and the SBG, and I would not have gone on to pick up Warhammer 40K as a second game. Also, ironically, I've more or less abandoned 40K and not played for 2 years (because I now dislike the cluster feth it became with 6th and 7th Ed) in favour of going back to the LOTR SBG which I still enjoy.

The only game I'm considering from GW right now is The Hobbit. Saddly (or not), I don't have any Fantasy or 40K army to hold me by memories of better days. Is it worth it to try and collect the LotR/Hobbit line?

Yes. Very good discounts can be found on ebay, especially for the older (non-limited edition) models. And if you learn to paint strip then the detail is not obscured by thick paint. Its actually quite easy though time consuming and messy - I soak my plastic or metal minis in liquid dettol for 24+ hours, then scrub with a firm bristled toothbrush and use a round pointed file to scrape out the recesses. Also lots of retailers give good discounts on LOTR/Hobbit product (I use Element Games).

I've gone on ebay binges over the last year and got over £300 worth of minis for less than £150.

The biggest problem is finding opponents to play with, if you're a gamer that is. Painters and collectors will have no such problem. Check out the forums and facebook groups to find opponents in your area.

Great British Hobbit League
https://www.facebook.com/groups/472128942815892/?fref=ts

One Ring
http://one-ring.co.uk/index.php?sid=55e3c12ebeb7104e867af1756fbd3e85

The Last Alliance.
http://www.thelastalliance.com/

The best solution if you lack opponents, is to collect multiple armies so you can give a demo game to other players and/or friends. Even if you have to lend them one of your own armies every time its better than having absolutely no one to play with. I'm collecting armies in opposing pairs, so I can lend armies to my opponent if need be.

Arnor vs Angmar.
Gondor vs Mordor.
Mirkwood Elves & Eagles vs Orcs.
etc

 TheKbob wrote:

The modern Infinity release are blowing away modern GW releases in aesthetic and artistic capabilities at a smaller scale in a more expensive material at cheaper cost to the player per model (character model comparison). Swing and miss.

While the Infi vs. 2ed comparison is obviously not true, this bit is purely subjective. There´s quite a lot of crappy models in Infinity aswell.

 TheKbob wrote:

Keraun0s wrote:


The only game I'm considering from GW right now is The Hobbit. Saddly (or not), I don't have any Fantasy or 40K army to hold me by memories of better days. Is it worth it to try and collect the LotR/Hobbit line?

Do you think Fantasy and 40k models are overpriced? Because the Hobbit is entirely more dollar per model cost and great deal is in Finecast.

Is not that i find it cheap. But i need much less of it to enjoy a full game. Also, would like to have te Fellowship and Thorin's Company. Also, the rules don't seem to catch as much heat as 40k or fantasy.

Well, at the end, maybe is not even worth it.

Infinity and 2nd edition 40k on the same model quality scale

I've not had a laugh this intense and lasting for ... the release of 2nd edition of 40k :x

 TheKbob wrote:

Keraun0s wrote:


The only game I'm considering from GW right now is The Hobbit. Saddly (or not), I don't have any Fantasy or 40K army to hold me by memories of better days. Is it worth it to try and collect the LotR/Hobbit line?

Do you think Fantasy and 40k models are overpriced? Because the Hobbit is entirely more dollar per model cost and great deal is in Finecast.

No.

At worst, The Hobbit range is on par with 40K for cost per model for the plastic boxes. The older LOTR plastic boxes are cheaper than the Hobbit even after years of price raises and the model count of plastic kits being halved, partly because New Line charged a higher licence fee for The Hobbit.

Man sized infantry heroes tend to cost between £8 to £15. 40K heroes to cost between £12 to £18 (the most expensive being the latest PLASTIC heroes). LOTR/Hobbit often come in foot & mounted pairs, or in groups of heroes (Fellowship etc), in which case they can cost from £6 to about £12 each for man sized Finecast models.

And you're also ignoring the fact that the SBG is a SKIRMISH GAME. This is effectively the "40K vs Infinity" argument, or the "40K vs War Machine".

Fewer models are required for a proper game (typically 500 - 700pts a big chunk of which is taken up by "HQ" heroes, with 50 - 60 models being considered a horde army). Compare that to 40K or Fantasy, where the norm is (or seems to be) 2000 - 3000pt games, with over a hundred models per side, or lots of very big models. The SBG has never exceeded the 2 Warhammer games in cost, especially startup costs for new players.



And for the record, as much as I like the SBG, I still think that it is over priced, just as I think Warhammer is overpriced.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

Keraun0s wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

Keraun0s wrote:


The only game I'm considering from GW right now is The Hobbit. Saddly (or not), I don't have any Fantasy or 40K army to hold me by memories of better days. Is it worth it to try and collect the LotR/Hobbit line?

Do you think Fantasy and 40k models are overpriced? Because the Hobbit is entirely more dollar per model cost and great deal is in Finecast.

Is not that i find it cheap. But i need much less of it to enjoy a full game. Also, would like to have te Fellowship and Thorin's Company. Also, the rules don't seem to catch as much heat as 40k or fantasy.

Well, at the end, maybe is not even worth it.

If you are a fan of the Hobbit and/or the Lord of the Rings, then it is worth it for that reason alone. The SBG range is by far the best miniature representation and game of Tolkien's work thats ever been done. If you're not a fan of the films or books, then perhaps not. Its subjective.

The LOTR/WOTR/HObbit rules are actually pretty tight and well written.

Comparatively anyway..

best of my knowledge there's no rules or game as such but

http://www.darkswordminiatures.com/

have the a anyway .. license for GoT minis.

 reds8n wrote:
The LOTR/WOTR/HObbit rules are actually pretty tight and well written.

Comparatively anyway..

best of my knowledge there's no rules or game as such but

http://www.darkswordminiatures.com/

have the a anyway .. license for GoT minis.

Aye I know about them and they're excellent models, but they're more painters'/collectors' models than wargaming models no? And they don't have a companion wargame for the range. And they're like 32mm or something, not 28mm. There are multiple licences for different model scales for the LOTR, Mithril Miniatures has 32mm or w.e. Gw has 28mm (and the 15mm or whatever the old Battle of the Five Armies specialist game was). Theres also Thomorillion. Theres nothing stopping mutliple licences for Game of Thrones.

Also, the LOTR and Hobbit rules are well written buuuuuuuut... the WOTR.... not so much. It needs a 2nd Ed to address some of the serious issues (OP magic for instance) so the game can reach its full potential.

 RunicFIN wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

The modern Infinity release are blowing away modern GW releases in aesthetic and artistic capabilities at a smaller scale in a more expensive material at cheaper cost to the player per model (character model comparison). Swing and miss.

While the Infi vs. 2ed comparison is obviously not true, this bit is purely subjective. There´s quite a lot of crappy models in Infinity aswell.

Just curious runic, what would you consider to be the 'crappy models' in infinity? No bait, genuine question.

With the caveat of some of the original starter sets are a bit on the dodgy side (- looking at you pan-o, in particular) I would personally rate cb's stuff as some of the best in the industry. It's rare that there isn't a model I don't want. Even with those starters, they're being redone and re released.

Deadnight wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

The modern Infinity release are blowing away modern GW releases in aesthetic and artistic capabilities at a smaller scale in a more expensive material at cheaper cost to the player per model (character model comparison). Swing and miss.

While the Infi vs. 2ed comparison is obviously not true, this bit is purely subjective. There´s quite a lot of crappy models in Infinity aswell.

Just curious runic, what would you consider to be the 'crappy models' in infinity? No bait, genuine question.

With the caveat of some of the original starter sets are a bit on the dodgy side (- looking at you pan-o, in particular) I would personally rate cb's stuff as some of the best in the industry. It's rare that there isn't a model I don't want. Even with those starters, they're being redone and re released.

I bet 3.5 €uros (I don't have too much spare cash, being a student is a pain) that he comes back with an Exrah picture

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 reds8n wrote:
The LOTR/WOTR/HObbit rules are actually pretty tight and well written.

Comparatively anyway..

best of my knowledge there's no rules or game as such but

http://www.darkswordminiatures.com/

have the a anyway .. license for GoT minis.

Aye I know about them and they're excellent models, but they're more painters'/collectors' models than wargaming models no? And they don't have a companion wargame for the range. And they're like 32mm or something, not 28mm. There are multiple licences for different model scales for the LOTR, Mithril Miniatures has 32mm or w.e. Gw has 28mm (and the 15mm or whatever the old Battle of the Five Armies specialist game was). Theres also Thomorillion. Theres nothing stopping mutliple licences for Game of Thrones.

Also, the LOTR and Hobbit rules are well written buuuuuuuut... the WOTR.... not so much. It needs a 2nd Ed to address some of the serious issues (OP magic for instance) so the game can reach its full potential.

WOTR will never be updated. By this time next year we will no longer see hobbit in gw's line. The curent range for LOTR gw produces is a 25mm scale. That is one of the major issues for the LOTR line is that the minitures could be significantly better if new line would have allowed them to make them in a 28mm scale as GW proposed. New line didnt want the chance that warhammer minis got intermingled with LOTR ones. I honestly think that the LOTR rule set is VERY tight and very simple/beginner friendly. If gw had been given free reign to do the minis however they saw fit, i think we could have seen something well beyond what is, imo, a great range already.

Keraun0s wrote:
l
How long can Mantic, Wyrd, Corvus Belli, Warlord Games and many other smaller companies keep their lines going? How long for them to have to resort to the GW way to keep some profit? I would like to know if other game giants have fallen, and how they fell.

It's a mistake to think that companies are going to go the "GW way" as far as emmulation. However, there are alot of elements to GW's success that other companies have picked up on to rise in their niches.
-PP took the GW style (and CCG style) wargames tournament model and went so far as to build a game around it. They continue to have a very successful tournament scene long after GW has dropped theirs.
-Games like FoW and Bolt Action recognized the value in high-production-value publication books , boxed sets and plastic kits and really brought historical gaming to a more prominent place in FLGS's and among gamers that normally would have been dominated by Fantasy and Sci-Fi kits.
-Many other companies have followed the GW model of providing extremely high quality miniatures at a premium price.
-Companies like Mantic (and many before it) Have tried to build "Big Battle" games, to varying degrees of success.

The difference is that most of these companies have not also tried to run a retail chain at the same time. It's this element that is unlikely to be emulated by other companies and that will keep them less vulnerable to the wider retail are real-estate markets. GW depends on their stores for new customers, but to keep these stores going, GW has had to minimize staff and maximize prices, so it''s put them in a tough spot where they are still making more $ than any other minis company, but are trapped in a very specific sales model.

Keraun0s wrote:
l
I would like to know if other game giants have fallen, and how they fell.

Not too many were the size of GW, but there are alot of very large companies that have bit the dust. Here's a few for you.

-TSR. Maker of D&D was a very large and successful company and bigger than GW for a time, but didn't have enough cash reserves to pay for a massive return of Novels and games from a Publisher. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSR_(company) Shortly after it was bought by Wizards.

-Grenadier minaitures was a huge producer of minis. As well as very big Future Wars and Fantasy Warriors (very similar to Warhammer in size and concept)and other fantasy and historical lines of their own, they also produced minis for Shadowrun, D&D and others. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenadier_Models_Inc.
Their fall isn't entirely clear, but it seems to be a combination of loosing many of their lucrative licensed lines and the "lead scare" of the early 90's.

Ral Partha: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ral_Partha_Enterprises
Was one of the biggest mini producers for over 20 years. They seem to have run into trouble by focusing too much on licensed lines at the expense of their own lines. They Produced lots of D&D models, all the Battletech line and most of the Shadowrun mins. Eventually they were bought by one of the companies they produced for "FASA", which it'self was bought by WizKids in 2000.

-Heartbreaker Hobbies and Games was, IIRC, the original maker of the "Mutant Chronicles" RPG which birthed the "Warzone" game in the 90's. Also the Fantasy game "Chronopia". The games quickly expanded and at it's height had many factions and a range of miniatures that was probably second only to GW. They merged with "Target Games" in the 90's and in some places were really going after GW. I don't know the details, but Target went into bankruptcy. A new company "Excellsior" tried to revive Warzone, but failed and the game was gone for over a decade before being revived last year under license to a new company.

-FASA producer of Battletech, Earthdawn and Shadowrun, VOR, etc went inactive (never bankrupted) after 20 years because it's creators decided to simply get out while they were ahead and thought the market was going downhill. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FASA
They sold the BT and Shadowrun to one of the founder's new companies' wizkids" that has kept some of their IP alive.

-Another big one was I-Kore. I think some staff from Target and sculptors were in involved in this company. It was another company with two big games, Void (sci-fi) and Celtos (fantasy) . Like Target, the company grew quickly and it's games had many factions and a very large collection of miniatures. How it folded is a bit clearer. It appears to be a combination of things
-Manufacturing errors led to a missed Christmas season
-One employee was running an unauthorized discount dealer of Ikore products.
-Some shady and poorly handled accounting.
You can read the whole thing here.
http://theminiaturespage.com/news/?id=529779
A new Company was formed to take over the lines "Urban Mamoth" and the Void universe lives on in the "Urban War" series of games.

Interestingly the history of other games is also a pretty good indication that if GW folds another company will swoop in to take over to keep it going. Battletech, Shadowrun, Dungeons and Dragons, Warzone, Void/UrbanWar, etc. All these games still exist today in one form or another, even though none of them are produced by the same company that created them originally.

One other thing to note about companies going under is that often times the minis will live on separately even if the game dies or if new minis are released to replace the old ones. This is especially the case when they are metal minis that can easily be produced by small manufacturers.
Many of these lines will never get any new minis or will get updated only occasionally, but if the figures are good enough, folks will continue to buy them for many years to come.
-Urban War got new minis, so the Void minis were sold to "Scotia Grendel" where they can still be bought today.
-Celtos minis are still being produced by Brigade games
-Grenadier Fantasy warriors and Future Warriors are still being made by EM4 and Merliton
-IIRC, though the molds weren't transferred, Prince August bought the huge amount of old stock from Warzone and Chronopia and has been selling it off for over a decade!
-Ral Partha models are made by Iron Wind Metals in the USA and Ral Partha Europe.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 namiel wrote:
[That is one of the major issues for the LOTR line is that the minitures could be significantly better if new line would have allowed them to make them in a 28mm scale as GW proposed. New line didnt want the chance that warhammer minis got intermingled with LOTR ones. I honestly think that the LOTR rule set is VERY tight and very simple/beginner friendly. If gw had been given free reign to do the minis however they saw fit, i think we could have seen something well beyond what is, imo, a great range already.

Strongly disagree. the 25mm (closer to true 27mm, but whatever…) scale of LoTR is not really a limit to high quality sculpting. A good artist can do 25mm stuff that is every bit as good as 28. Tom Meir (Of Ral Partha Fame) is still producing 25mm minis under his "Thunderbolt Mountain" company that are as good or better than anything GW has done in 28mm . http://www.thunderboltmountain.com

The drawback of the size of LoTR, is a limit to the possible cross-use of the minis between LoTR and other games by GW and others. Incompatibility (real or percieved) is the real drawback to a slightly smaller scale, not quality limitations.

 Eilif wrote:
Strongly disagree. the 25mm (closer to true 27mm, but whatever…) scale of LoTR is not really a limit to high quality sculpting. A good artist can do 25mm stuff that is every bit as good as 28. Tom Meir (Of Ral Partha Fame) is still producing 25mm minis under his "Thunderbolt Mountain" company that are as good or better than anything GW has done in 28mm . http://www.thunderboltmountain.com

People here should see some of his 15mm stuff at Khurasan Miniatures, too. I also saw photos of a 4mm Napoleon he sculpted once, for giggles, that would've blown your minds. Freakin' thing had buttons on the greatcoat.

Eilif: Shame about Celtos. The minis weren't the best, but I liked the setting a lot and the game looked fun enough. I have the rulebook at home, but I've never managed to play a game of it!

 Vermis wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
Strongly disagree. the 25mm (closer to true 27mm, but whatever…) scale of LoTR is not really a limit to high quality sculpting. A good artist can do 25mm stuff that is every bit as good as 28. Tom Meir (Of Ral Partha Fame) is still producing 25mm minis under his "Thunderbolt Mountain" company that are as good or better than anything GW has done in 28mm . http://www.thunderboltmountain.com

People here should see some of his 15mm stuff at Khurasan Miniatures, too. I also saw photos of a 4mm Napoleon he sculpted once, for giggles, that would've blown your minds. Freakin' thing had buttons on the greatcoat.

I'd love to see the 4mm stuff.

I'd seen the Khurasan 15mm sci-fi character figs but didn't know they were his work. They are all kinds of amazing, here's 3 of them:


Yes, that's a penny!

 Eilif wrote:

I'd love to see the 4mm stuff.

I'd seen the Khurasan 15mm sci-fi character figs but didn't know they were his work. They are all kinds of amazing, here's 3 of them:


Yes, that's a penny!

Dang. The painting and sculpting are astounding for miniatures of that scale!

 Da Boss wrote:
Eilif: Shame about Celtos. The minis weren't the best, but I liked the setting a lot and the game looked fun enough. I have the rulebook at home, but I've never managed to play a game of it!

I thought the minis were quite good, but they are a different style than GW. If you change you're mind about the figs, the rules and minis are still in production here, with a few additional units having been produced.
http://www.brigademodels.co.uk/Celtos/index.html

People have always complained about Games Workshop, be it about their prices, their business model, or even just give support to gamers by stating that they facilitate the "hobby" not the game. I have played 40k on and off since 2nd edition and back then people complained about the same stuff they do today.

They complained with the lead was changed to what was called 'White Lead', they complained when they no longer used lead. I just wish that back then we had the models and the detail we do today.

I complained yesterday when I was struggling to put the Stormwolf together, and just for the hell of it I will complain that the Stormwolf model cannot easily be changed into a Stormfang and that even the weapon combinations encourage you to buy multiple models.

I play 40k and I purchase the models because I like Space Wolves. I like their history, I like the rivalries (Warrior Vs Wizard, Lion Vs Wolf). I hate painting them and putting them together, I don't get to play often and when I do I am not very good, but I don't mind because it is just a game and I would just find something else equally unimportant to spend my money on.

 MWHistorian wrote:
To answer one of the OP's questions, look at TSR and how they fell. They were freaking D&D, yet they fell and fell hard. It's an interesting bit of history with a lot of lessons to be learned.

They were also had some really bad management. Quite like GW currently has, the people at the top did not listen to what the customers were wanting.

 TheKbob wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:


Inifinity is on a par with 2nd Ed 40K, nothing better.

This is objectively and entirely incorrect. It very nearly invalidates everything you have said.

Spoiler:

Versus

Spoiler:

Edit: Dakkadakka is crap today, Google Tyranids Second Edition. Choose a photo. Proceed to cringe. Seriously, I tried to link like eight photos, all failing. Try here works now, weird issue.

The modern Infinity release are blowing away modern GW releases in aesthetic and artistic capabilities at a smaller scale in a more expensive material at cheaper cost to the player per model (character model comparison). Swing and miss.

I could not agree more , that statement is very inaccurate

http://www.miniwargaming.com/images/previews/infinity/DogWarriors1.jpg

Far as I can tell with 99% of all infinitys current miniatures they are far superior to ANYTHING GW PRODUCES currently, they are supreme detailed miniatures, and also done in True Scale and not in a more and more outdated "Heroic Scale". I personally had to comment in agreement GW as far as I am concerned unlike what their motto says do not make the best miniatures in the world and this has been true for quite some time as far as I am concerned.

Yes some of infinities first minis were not the best sculpts ( they were decent in the time they came out) however their over all range, is worth so much more than GW's products and I would any day feel my money more well spent on just a few infinity miniatures compared to GW's plastic heroic scale kits. Also whyll quoting this we should add Infinity 's game is made at a sensible scale for the miniature scale, works well and is well balanced. I wont get into GW's games for to be honest I truly think their main two ( not their old games they dropped I think 40k epic was one of their best games) games are a joke to be harsh but honest.

 Eilif wrote:
I'd love to see the 4mm stuff.

The best I can find is an old announcement about procreate's debut on Coolminiornot (which provides a little context. It's the only instance I know of Tom straying from green stuff!) and a google images preview of a photo that's not on imageshack anymore. Still, it's good enough fir the mind-boggling, IMO. Search for 'littleguyvg4'.

 Talizvar wrote:
"End of times for GW"
No, nice decline though.
Overall revenue is down and standard methods for increasing market-share are not being pursued as their strategy according to their financial report.
They are still seeking internal cost savings to show a profit, this can only go so-far.
At the absolute worst case, them or their IP would be bought before they ever go bankrupt.

"End of tabletop war gaming"
The day people get sick of models and/or board games is the only time I see that happening.
If we all are firmly glued to our tablets and cannot be bothered to interact with the physical world the statement would then have merit.
GW is not the entirety of tabletop war gaming no matter how much they want you to think so.

I like GW fluff and some models are quite nice, I have a big collection and can get reasonable games-in with my friends.
I find more than ever though, we are playing many other games and having a ton of fun.
I hope GW steps up their game before their fans leave them behind for something more shiny...

I think this all sums it up quite nicely.

A change in the leadership at GW will likely lead to improvement in these areas and more. Kirby just seems to be in over his head.

I don't hear any GW death throes.. Just see a bunch of posts on Dakka.

techsoldaten wrote:
A change in the leadership at GW will likely lead to improvement in these areas and more. Kirby just seems to be in over his head.

Depends if the new leadership is a hand-picked Kirby Krony or not.

Pyeatt wrote:I don't hear any GW death throes.. Just see a bunch of posts on Dakka.

You need to see a bunch of financial reports.

 Pyeatt wrote:
I don't hear any GW death throes.. Just see a bunch of posts on Dakka.

Taking your fingers out of your ears might help.

Death throes is a little strong. GW is in a managed decline where they are choosing the protection of their margins over the maintenance of their revenue and market share. They'd rather close a multi-employee store and replace it with a single employee location and save on the staff costs even if the new store will sell 60% of what the old store did. They are also trying to shift as many purchases as possible into their own direct channels, again, to capture a greater margin even at the expense of the revenue of their trade sales.

GW is basically continually trying to find a way to keep more of each dollar earned even if it means earning less dollars overall. If that can continue to do this they can keep paying out dividends, not invest in any real changes and stay profitable until they find a stabilization point where the revenue stops declining. The right staff and the right locations using traditional hard sales techniques to sell their products via direct channels.

The risk is that the revenue doesn't stabilize and never stops declining. Or worse, begins declining more rapidly than they can cut costs.

EDIT: Also, there is something fundamentally at odds between higher prices/lower volume sold and injection moulded plastic kits. The kits end up with a lower and lower cost per unit sold as you sell greater and greater numbers of them, so intentionally selling less at a higher price is failing to take advantage of the lower per-unit cost that injection moulded styrene can provide. Basically their pricing strategy and retail plan are contrary to their manufacturing process.

---

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 reds8n wrote:
The LOTR/WOTR/HObbit rules are actually pretty tight and well written.

Comparatively anyway..

best of my knowledge there's no rules or game as such but

http://www.darkswordminiatures.com/

have the a anyway .. license for GoT minis.

Aye I know about them and they're excellent models, but they're more painters'/collectors' models than wargaming models no? And they don't have a companion wargame for the range. And they're like 32mm or something, not 28mm.

Pretty sure Darksword sells 28mm. They say so themselves. They always have to make it clear which minis are 30-32mm, and which ones are 28mm. Most of the their GoT minis are 28mm, with 2-3 that comes in bigger versions.

Choose a picture of the best Inifinty models painted fantastically, and choose some of the worst examples of 2nd Ed GW sculpts, win argument.

I had a closer look at the new (thats new people, as in only just released so should be the best possible) Infinity models last night. Really nice, certainly on a par with some of the later GW metal models. but it looked like about 15 models for about 70 quid starter box. That can't be right, that's GW prices!

And another good tactic is to only answer the points you can, and ignore the bits you know are right. I love the internet!

What later GW metal models? GW has not released any metal miniatures in ages. You're talking about finecast then?

And the individual Infinity model is leagues above the bog standard plastic Space Marine who is more a joke in terms of details, poses, anatomy and stuff than a serious miniature.

Off the top of my head (and using minis I own) I'd compare them to the metal Abbadon, Azreal or Ezekial. Or maybe one of the Librarian models.

I've mentioned some great 2nd ed metal sculpts there by the way.

Wait.. http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Chaos-Space-Marines-Abaddon-the-Despoiler this one?

Or this one?
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Dark-Angels-Azrael-Supreme-Grand-Master

This?
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Dark-Angels-Ezekiel-Grand-Master-of-Librarians

It's become pretty obvious that you're either just trolling or hthat you have never actually seen an Infinity model in real life.

The would all look better if they had the same paint job standard, apart from the Abaddon maybe. I'll give you that one.

I had the operation Icestorm box in my hands last night, nearly bought it as the models would proxy well for awful Enforcers in Deadzone. I bought some Malifuax stuff instead.

Not trolling at all. If you can't have a discussion without calling windup within a few minutes, I'll have to assume you are trying to start one of these 'flame wars' I keep reading about.

I notice no-one has given me a better product, at a cheaper pricepoint, for a large scale 40k style or fantasy style game

See, whatever people will show you, you'll automatically reject it. We (the forum) have done so a thousend times.

You'll stay true and honest to GW and everything else will automatially fail against your perception of it.

There is just no point in giving you examples. Like I said, we've done so a thousend times.

And by the way "large scale 40k style" is not a category.... large scale is not something you can do with 28mm miniatures. YOu use 6-15mm for that. 28mm is horrible for "large scale".
Fantasy style game does not mean 28mm either, nor "large scale".

So your categories don't even make any sense.


Buuuut.. since I'm bored: Google
Bolt Action plastics
Perry Miniature plastics
ANY historical 25-28mm metal (1 pound per minature).
Avatars of War units (dwarfs and Chaos Warriors and Dark Elves)
Dream Forge
Shieldwolf Miniatures

And there are many many others

Wait those sculpts are superior to Infinity?

I'm sure that taste is very subjective. Like to some people the Twilight saga is the epitome of novels, I guess. Or Honey Boo Boo is the best show there is.

I seem to be conversing with those who don't have English as a first language, so maybe things are getting lost in translation...

My point is thus...

I play lots of games.
Two of those are GW.
There is not a single product that replaces those two games in terms of mini quality and cost.
Either they are more expensive and designed around a skirmish game
Or poorer quality and cheaper

When a game reaches me that can offer me the same quality of figure, in the same quanities as a typical 1500-200 point 40K or 2400 point WHFB force, with the same variety, I will buy into the DOOM! THE END! attitude about GW.

Until then, I will play Deadzone, Dreadball, Malifaux, WarmaHordes and soon to be AvP, and my Kings Hold KS, and continue to play 40k and WHFB. I will also come online and share my enthusiam for all of them, and scoff at the death predictions, and laugh at those that resort to snide comments, because they are annoyed they don't have a proper answer

The Division Of Joy wrote:
I seem to be conversing with those who don't have English as a first language, so maybe things are getting lost in translation...

My point is thus...

I play lots of games.
Two of those are GW.
There is not a single product that replaces those two games in terms of mini quality and cost.
Either they are more expensive and designed around a skirmish game
Or poorer quality and cheaper

When a game reaches me that can offer me the same quality of figure, in the same quanities as a typical 1500-200 point 40K or 2400 point WHFB force, with the same variety, I will buy into the DOOM! THE END! attitude about GW.

Until then, I will play Deadzone, Dreadball, Malifaux, WarmaHordes and soon to be AvP, and my Kings Hold KS, and continue to play 40k and WHFB. I will also come online and share my enthusiam for all of them, and scoff at the death predictions, and laugh at those that resort to snide comments, because they are annoyed they don't have a proper answer

You need to move those goalposts harder! Now your opinion isn't about model quality, its about individual costs of models and some mythical number of models on the table?!

You white knights really are hilarious when you start to flounder around!

See, that's exactly what I expected.

I show examples -> you ignore them because -> all you want is 40k and thus everything else is automatically inferior.

Examples

http://www.games-workshop.com/de-DE/Protektorgarde-Trupp-der-Space-Marines
5 Miniatures 40€

http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/en/2011/miniatures/hassassin-bahram/
6 Miniatures 40€

So Infinity is cheaper and the models are AT LEAST equally good. (I think they are at least two classes better than GW but whatever)


http://www.games-workshop.com/de-DE/Inccubi-der-Dark-Eldar
5 Miniature 33€

http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/en/2012/miniatures/makaul/
4 Miniatures 28€ so a bit more expensive but only just a bit and at least you get 4 completely individual minatures and no doubles.

How are the Infinity Miniatures "designed around a skirmish games" and the GW miniatures are not? How are the Infinity Miniatures more expensive?

Another examples:

Bolt Action Soviets
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0288/8306/products/wgb-ri-02-soviet-infantry-c_3_1024x1024.jpeg?v=1383704254

40 Miniatures ~40€

Cadians
http://www.games-workshop.com/de-DE/Cadianische-Stosstruppen-der-Imperialen-Armee
10 Miniatures 23€ so 40 miniatures = 90€

So the Warlord Games miniatures are of poorer quality and cheaper? No, they are cheaper and AT LEAST of equal or better quality (with LOADS of more options and variety) than the GW miniatures.

PhantomViper wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
I seem to be conversing with those who don't have English as a first language, so maybe things are getting lost in translation...

My point is thus...

I play lots of games.
Two of those are GW.
There is not a single product that replaces those two games in terms of mini quality and cost.
Either they are more expensive and designed around a skirmish game
Or poorer quality and cheaper

When a game reaches me that can offer me the same quality of figure, in the same quanities as a typical 1500-200 point 40K or 2400 point WHFB force, with the same variety, I will buy into the DOOM! THE END! attitude about GW.

Until then, I will play Deadzone, Dreadball, Malifaux, WarmaHordes and soon to be AvP, and my Kings Hold KS, and continue to play 40k and WHFB. I will also come online and share my enthusiam for all of them, and scoff at the death predictions, and laugh at those that resort to snide comments, because they are annoyed they don't have a proper answer

You need to move those goalposts harder! Now your opinion isn't about model quality, its about individual costs of models and some mythical number of models on the table?!

You white knights really are hilarious when you start to flounder around!

I'm a white knight because I would be happy for something to stop me buying GW should it be there?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

RoninXiC wrote:
See, that's exactly what I expected.

I show examples -> you ignore them because -> all you want is 40k and thus everything else is automatically inferior.

Examples

http://www.games-workshop.com/de-DE/Protektorgarde-Trupp-der-Space-Marines
5 Miniatures 40€

http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/en/2011/miniatures/hassassin-bahram/
6 Miniatures 40€

So Infinity is cheaper and the models are AT LEAST equally good. (I think they are at least two classes better than GW but whatever)


http://www.games-workshop.com/de-DE/Inccubi-der-Dark-Eldar
5 Miniature 33€

http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/en/2012/miniatures/makaul/
4 Miniatures 28€ so a bit more expensive but only just a bit and at least you get 4 completely individual minatures and no doubles.

How are the Infinity Miniatures "designed around a skirmish games" and the GW miniatures are not? How are the Infinity Miniatures more expensive?

Another examples:

Bolt Action Soviets
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0288/8306/products/wgb-ri-02-soviet-infantry-c_3_1024x1024.jpeg?v=1383704254

40 Miniatures ~40€

Cadians
http://www.games-workshop.com/de-DE/Cadianische-Stosstruppen-der-Imperialen-Armee
10 Miniatures 23€ so 40 miniatures = 90€

So the Warlord Games miniatures are of poorer quality and cheaper? No, they are cheaper and AT LEAST of equal or better quality (with LOADS of more options and variety) than the GW miniatures.

The bolt action (another game I've played recently) figures are not as good as GW, come on

I noticed you've chosen an expensive example for the other two.

I play Tau and DA for 40k, so have 3 tactical squads, and depending on my list, 3 squads of fire warriors or 9 Crisis suits.

Again, if someone can point me too a game that produces models like this, that can flesh out a 50-60 model count game then I'm game! at the same price and quality mind.

And yes. I would say 40k is less skirmish based than Infinity. If the standard of Deadzone mini doesn't improve, then I'll definitely give infinity a bash should my money not already be swallowed by AvP.

Wait, I've mentioned AvP more than once, I best get off my Xeno-steed

There are plenty of manufacturers around to make comparisons with. I do find things like Warmachine a bit expensive myself but they don't represent the entire competition for GW, there are heaps of miniature lines out there, and I've not looked closely at Warmachine ranges. I am aware that line like Perry Miniatures and Bolt Action are high quality for much less than GW, also companies like Shieldwolf do fantasy ranges of plastic infantry, good quality and cheaper per figure than GW. I saw them at Salute, you get twice as many fantasy Orcs in their boxes as you do from GW for only a little more cost, and they are big figures.

I've been buying the new Warzone range recently, they do unique character figures for about £7 and packs of 5 men for about £13. All cast in resin, fine crisp detail and minimal clean up that I've experienced. Quite a different experience to Finecast resin which is a joke. Also you get the cards/rules with each pack of figures.

GW just doesn't compete with that, they often want £20 for five plastic figures. Their character figures start at £15 minimum, Space Marine Captains and Librarians are £18 a pop. Ridiculous. Many of the GW figures were sculpted for 2nd edition are are still being pushed for £15 each. Even their vanilla plastic marines, castings several years old, are £25. There are companies doing resin for less than that.

Even the Batman Miniatures game is cheaper than GW, their character figures are about £10-12 and go up for the really big stuff like Clayface for £18 or Bane for £25. But those big ones dwarf most GW figures costing similar amounts. And they are probably paying a significant licence fee to DC to do them.

The Division Of Joy wrote:
The bolt action (another game I've played recently) figures are not as good as GW, come on

Are you joking? You'd rather have blocky guys than somewhat-realistic (okay the Germans are a little of that style IMO) looking human males? Compare the Bolt Action units to Cadian (closest match - guys in combat uniforms) and the Bolt Action figures look ten times more realistic and better. There are no Aquila or skulls though if that's your thing, and of course they use rifles instead of blocky laser guns.

No offense but your arguments sound like the typical "I think GW is fine and great" argument: You don't mind buying the figures at the price they're asking and think they really are the "best" quality, so everything else is automatically inferior for what is ultimately minutiae (e.g. metal instead of plastic, not as tall/wide, not as many bits, etc. all very small nitpicking). While nobody is going to say you're wrong for liking the quality of GW (although perhaps wrong for thinking their prices are reasonable even if you're willing to pay it ) it's the dismissal of anything else as inferior for personal nitpicking reasons that gets old.

The Division Of Joy wrote:
m

The bolt action (another game I've played recently) figures are not as good as GW, come on

True.. they are a lot nicer, have more options, realistic proportions ( not perfect, but getting close), and you can field several different unit entries just out of this box. Cadians are laughably ugly, almost no options and yeah the price..
So you are right. Bolt Action Soviets are not as good as GW Cadiands, they are a lot better.

I noticed you've chosen an expensive example for the other two. I play Tau and DA for 40k, so have 3 tactical squads, and depending on my list, 3 squads of fire warriors or 9 Crisis suits.
Again, if someone can point me too a game that produces models like this, that can flesh out a 50-60 model count game then I'm game! at the same price and quality mind.

Bolt Action? Hail Cesar? PIke & Shotte? Black Powder? All 50-100 models for a fraction of GW.

And yes, I didn't go for the plastic miniatures. True. But who cares? Your point used to be, that Infinity minature do not count because they've been made for skirmish games. Since I showed you that Infinity is actually cheaper AND better looking than a lot of GW miniatures, your point just does not hold up at all.

And yes. I would say 40k is less skirmish based than Infinity. 8)

Only kind of true actually. 40k is super skirmish but bloated to an absurd system which does not know what it wants. Whatever it is, it's not a mass unit system like Flames of War or other 6-15mm games.

I can't speak to 'tabletop gaming' as I've only ever played 40K and WFB and Space Hulk but it seems to me that GW is and has been eternally on the precipice of 'breaking' 40K into the mainstream without either realising it or caring to take the chance and push.

There is a tremendous amount of crossover between 40K and the current culture, for want of a better word, in the west. We have more and more young people who feel it's acceptable to be seen reading comic books, playing video games and generally 'being a nerd'. These are all things I can remember not wanting to admit to at school that have undergone an image change and I feel that 40K is more than ready to take a slice of that pie.

The problem is that they're stagnating. They won't allow a developer, I hear at least, to make a digital replica of the tabletop game with all the potential revenue possible there (think Ultimate Team in FIFA) because they worry that it will damage the sales of real product. I don't see that they're mutually exclusive at all and I see similarities in MtG Online, which I use because I cannot get a game IRL. Similarly, they fail to engage with their fanbase, painting us all as 'collectors'. If you're not into their product just for the sake of having lots of it, they won't help you get the most out of it. They refuse to advance the fluff in any meaningful way, creating a sandpit rather than a living, breathing world through evolving narratives. It's been a stalemate for decades and when the Tau were introduced, it was just to be part of this stalemate.

When you look at the success of games like Dawn of War and Space Marine, it seems clear that with a few good marketing campaigns and some openness to change, GW could see tremendous growth.

As it is though, they'll slowly rot until bought out. Hopefully it comes sooner rather than later and the new owners won't be so short sighted and they'll foster and support innumerable communities within the whole, rather than just focus on 'collectors'.

Please excuse my jaded ranting.

And I guess Epic was super super super skirmish.

I say what I want, and when I offer opinion I'm a white knight.

I repeat that I'm not a GW white knight, and would happily get my 'larger scale' fix from another company if it was better, but I get isolated examples, and cherry picked price comparisons, and told I'm a white knight.

I say 'give me another 40k option' and get a raft of historical army options. I don't like them and it's not what i'm asking for, I'm a GW fanboy!

The only person that has made something constructive is the person that's made the arguement for Warzone. Now they are nice (and I am a prodos fan) and should they start releasing things to scale up to a size battle similar to 40k (so bigger tanks, fliers maybe, some big toys for even larger battles) I'll be all over those. Add in AvP cross play and you can have my Tau.

If prodos start doing fantasy, or malifaux start producing in larger numbers (with slightly easier building) then my night goblins will be boxed up as well.

If you want to carry on with the 'he's a white knight' chat, and hostility, I can ask someone grown up to send you the rules

It's by definition impossible to give you another 40k options because only 40k will ever be 40k. No game which is not a 100% copy will ever meet your demands.

And Warzones does have tanks incoming. No idea why you'd want flyers in a 28mm game. They make zero sense at all.

The Division Of Joy wrote:
I seem to be conversing with those who don't have English as a first language, so maybe things are getting lost in translation...

My point is thus...

I play lots of games.
Two of those are GW.
There is not a single product that replaces those two games in terms of mini quality and cost.
Either they are more expensive and designed around a skirmish game
Or poorer quality and cheaper

When a game reaches me that can offer me the same quality of figure, in the same quanities as a typical 1500-200 point 40K or 2400 point WHFB force, with the same variety, I will buy into the DOOM! THE END! attitude about GW.

Until then, I will play Deadzone, Dreadball, Malifaux, WarmaHordes and soon to be AvP, and my Kings Hold KS, and continue to play 40k and WHFB. I will also come online and share my enthusiam for all of them, and scoff at the death predictions, and laugh at those that resort to snide comments, because they are annoyed they don't have a proper answer

I wanted to speak my mind on this, but then I noticed that you did it already. I fully agree to what you said. I love 40k and I love other games. I am glad they all exist and I can only laugh when people make a religious war out of this. But have a look at forums all over the internet, e.g. for computer games. You always have your share of people who dislike something about the game and their only known reaction is to with bankruptcy or death to the game makers.

RoninXiC wrote:
It's by definition impossible to give you another 40k options because only 40k will ever be 40k. No game which is not a 100% copy will ever meet your demands.

And Warzones does have tanks incoming. No idea why you'd want flyers in a 28mm game. They make zero sense at all.

I can reassess Warzone when more things come in.

Why are fliers making zero sense? In the future, there is only ground war?

Flyers need more space than the 100m a typical 40k board has to offer. They'd need dozends of boards to manouver and change directions.

So no, they don't make any sense at all the ways 40k uses them.

If they are going at a speed that makes them unable to turn on table, they have a turn to turn around and come back on. It's pretty straightforward, on the board, you are seeing slow combat moves.

If prodos do a marine dropship, then end up incorporating this into the rest of Warzone, I'll be happy

Infinity is far and above anything GW puts out nowadays. To compare them to 2nd edition GW stuff is mind numbingly ignorant.

To Division of Joy, I get what you're saying. For you, GW is a perfect spot of epic battle with lots of spectacle than no other game offers. That's a legitimate reason to like 40k. (But fliers don't belong in such a small board.)

But in terms of miniature quality, there are companies that do better work than GW.

RoninXiC wrote:
See, whatever people will show you, you'll automatically reject it. We (the forum) have done so a thousend times.

You'll stay true and honest to <insert alternative manufacturer(s)> and everything else will automatially fail against your perception of it.

There is just no point in giving you examples. Like I said, we've done so a thousend times.

That´s a damn nice description of the polar opposite end aswell.

RoninXiC wrote:
It's by definition impossible to give you another 40k options because only 40k will ever be 40k. No game which is not a 100% copy will ever meet your demands.

And Warzones does have tanks incoming. No idea why you'd want flyers in a 28mm game. They make zero sense at all.

The way 40k handles them makes no sense. If they worked like Bolt Action, for example (you buy them and they do strafing runs) and then there was an optional "dogfight" type of rules set to actually play out flyer v. flyer combat, that would be the proper way to handle it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RunicFIN wrote:

RoninXiC wrote:
See, whatever people will show you, you'll automatically reject it. We (the forum) have done so a thousend times.

You'll stay true and honest to <insert alternative manufacturer(s)> and everything else will automatially fail against your perception of it.

There is just no point in giving you examples. Like I said, we've done so a thousend times.

That´s a damn nice description of the polar opposite end aswell.

Not really. the "polar opposite" usually presents evidence and facts, not just "I don't like X" or stupid nonsense like "I am happy to pay GW's price, therefore nothing is wrong".

It's not stupid nonsense at all.

I didn't make that statement though. I said I'm happy to play a price to play a certain type of game. If a better option was available, I would switch my buying elsewhere.

I have no real loyality to a brand, I just want to use the best standard of mini to play the best type of game. It's because I've included 40k and WHFB in the list of things I play, it's made people, that have an issue with GW (for a number of reasons, right or wrong) froth at the mouth.

It's very similar to the tribal attitudes people have to games consoles. I don't understand that either.

Hobbys exist to serve us, it's existance is purely to create joy within us. Why it would make people foam at the mouth on the internet is beyond me.

The Division Of Joy wrote:
It's not stupid nonsense at all.

I didn't make that statement though. I said I'm happy to play a price to play a certain type of game. If a better option was available, I would switch my buying elsewhere.

I have no real loyality to a brand, I just want to use the best standard of mini to play the best type of game. It's because I've included 40k and WHFB in the list of things I play, it's made people, that have an issue with GW (for a number of reasons, right or wrong) froth at the mouth.

It's very similar to the tribal attitudes people have to games consoles. I don't understand that either.

Hobbys exist to serve us, it's existance is purely to create joy within us. Why it would make people foam at the mouth on the internet is beyond me.

And here comes the final goal post moving and the haterz accusations, again...

No one is frothing at the mouth because you like GW, people are just contesting your claim that GW makes the "bestest miniatures in the whole wide world".

Believe it or not, your tactic is a really old one and people are tired of having to deal with it. You start with a ridiculous claim, when people contest that claim you start moving the goalposts and when even that doesn't make you "win" you resort to calling people haterz... Its getting pretty boring by this point.

PhantomViper wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
It's not stupid nonsense at all.

I didn't make that statement though. I said I'm happy to play a price to play a certain type of game. If a better option was available, I would switch my buying elsewhere.

I have no real loyality to a brand, I just want to use the best standard of mini to play the best type of game. It's because I've included 40k and WHFB in the list of things I play, it's made people, that have an issue with GW (for a number of reasons, right or wrong) froth at the mouth.

It's very similar to the tribal attitudes people have to games consoles. I don't understand that either.

Hobbys exist to serve us, it's existance is purely to create joy within us. Why it would make people foam at the mouth on the internet is beyond me.

And here comes the final goal post moving and the haterz accusations, again...

No one is frothing at the mouth because you like GW, people are just contesting your claim that GW makes the "bestest miniatures in the whole wide world".

Believe it or not, your tactic is a really old one and people are tired of having to deal with it. You start with a ridiculous claim, when people contest that claim you start moving the goalposts and when even that doesn't make you "win" you resort to calling people haterz... Its getting pretty boring by this point.

When you can point out where i've exactly said "bestest miniatures in the whole wide world" (and no goal post moving, I want that exact statement) I'll stop claiming you seem to be annoyed that i've spoken about a games company you are mad at.

I actually think for the record, Malifaux hold the title of 'best looking mini in a games system'.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Not really. the "polar opposite" usually presents evidence and facts, not just "I don't like X" or stupid nonsense like "I am happy to pay GW's price, therefore nothing is wrong".

Maybe in your 90´ degrees biased reality.... Next to that "I am unhappy to pay GW´s price, therefore nothing is right." Pot and kettle. I do find "I don´t like X" one of the most common arguments there is, I don´t know what forums you read.

Anyway, in order to make navigating DakkantiGWDakka easier, I have compiled all the related threads into a listing:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
.

It's very similar to the tribal attitudes people have to games consoles. I don't understand that either.

Hobbys exist to serve us, it's existance is purely to create joy within us. Why it would make people foam at the mouth on the internet is beyond me.

It has become the normal thing to do on the net nowadays somewhat, pick a side and get stuck in regardless.
It gets to the point where no one listens to whats being said and they just keep going through the motions, happens more and more on here especially where GW are concerned.
Its not as black and white as its made out, its more like shades of grey, definitely not worth getting upset about eh

The Division Of Joy wrote:
And I guess Epic was super super super skirmish.

I say what I want, and when I offer opinion I'm a white knight.

I repeat that I'm not a GW white knight, and would happily get my 'larger scale' fix from another company if it was better, but I get isolated examples, and cherry picked price comparisons, and told I'm a white knight.

I say 'give me another 40k option' and get a raft of historical army options. I don't like them and it's not what i'm asking for, I'm a GW fanboy!

On the one hand, you've "moved the goalposts" considerably". You started out stating that 2nd edition 40k miniatures were better than Infinity. After being conclusively shown to be incredibly wrong about that, you're now asking about games that are like 40k but not.

That almost sounds as ridiculous as your 2nd ed/Infinity question, but… you do have a small point.

There is no Company-level, all included (rules, minis and fluff from one company) 28mm sci-fantasy ruleset that has models as good as 40k. Mantic has/had a comparable ruleset, but the models aren't as good, and rely on a less than ideal "restic" material for many of the units. However, it's easy to see why there aren't many competitors. A 40k game is two "companies" of troop, armor and air support fighting on a piece of land the size of a football pitch. It's patently ridiculous and folks who want that turn to 40k or Mantic. Folks who want something slightly more realistic realize that the figures/area ratio requires less figs, and so most sci-fi rulesets are either around the reinforced platoon level or so, down to single squad sized skirmishes.
Warzone, Infinity, Mercs, Warmachine, etc. All made by writers who realized that better rules requires a smaller figs/area ratio and have adjusted as such. 40k and the Mantic "not-40k" warpath are the two options left for those size battles, and even Mantic has downsized Warpath to a 2.0 version that is a bit smaller, though 1.0 (original company level rules) is rumored to also be a part of the upcoming rulebook.

All this to say there are better figs, and better rules, but if you insist on cramming hundreds of sci-fi troops onto a soccer field and duking it out, then 40k is your best -and nearly only- choice.

I would add that I still have two 40k armies and do like a big, ridiculous sci-fi scrum from time to time. It's not a game that I would ever invest most of my gaming time and money in, but from time to time it's fun. When that mood hits, I find that warpath 1.0 is great for playing out such a game in a reasonable amount of time with free rules that are quite fluid and unencumbered by needless crunch and army lists that make proxying easy.

There's nothing like 40k because 40k is a large-scale game played on a small-scale field. Large-scale games use smaller scale figures to give the illusion of depth and size (see: Any historical game, Dropzone Commander, even Epic 40k) because that scale lets you accurately represent a large-scale battlefield. Even the historicals that use 28mm tend to be smaller-scale representing part of a battle as opposed to the entire battle itself, while 40k just kind of throws everything into one gigantic battle over a small area.

The entire reason why 40k and Epic were separate was so Epic could represent the entirety of the battle, while 40k represented a particular engagement of that battle. Now, you basically have condensed an entire battle into a single engagement.

The Division Of Joy wrote:

When you can point out where i've exactly said "bestest miniatures in the whole wide world" (and no goal post moving, I want that exact statement) I'll stop claiming you seem to be annoyed that i've spoken about a games company you are mad at.

I actually think for the record, Malifaux hold the title of 'best looking mini in a games system'.

There you go:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
When other companies (apart from Wyrd) start producing decent quality miniatures I'll be tempted to say enough is enough with GW, but the likes of Mantic have a long way to go. Prodos are getting there, but still a way off.

Its not an exact quote but if you read my statement it was under quotation marks meaning that it wasn't an exact quote from you but that I was paraphrasing. You can read this article if you wan't to read further about what I meant in my reply (its the last example in that subsection). Funny how you are demonstrating these difficulties with the English language and its various styles of written prose when just a few posts ago you were bemoaning having been misinterpreted by non-native speakers...

Like I said, this might seem all fresh and new to you but we've all been around this dance floor with several WKs before that have used the exact same tactics as you are using, so I think I'll leave it now, because this is all getting quite boring for me.

 RunicFIN wrote:


Anyway, in order to make navigating DakkantiGWDakka easier, I have compiled all the related threads into a listing:

Oh Runic, never stop.

I mean, let's just ignore the hundreds, if not thousands of other threads across this forum that aren't anti-GW, or ignore the ones that are so positive no dissenting opinion is allowed.

Life's probably just easier when you can put things into neat little boxes labelled 'Anti-GW' and 'Pro-GW'. So much easier than engaging and hearing what merits each individual brings to the discussion about a game they clearly love enough to talk about its flaws and what it would take to fix it in their opinion.

Keep banging that drum though.

 Blacksails wrote:


Keep banging that drum though.

It was humour, but I forgot I´m dealing with Comic Book Guys. Humour time over.

-

*continously using the WK term in a negative manner gives the impression of you being in the opposite corner.

PhantomViper wrote:
Like I said, this might seem all fresh and new to you but we've all been around this dance floor with several WKs before that have used the exact same tactics as you are using, so I think I'll leave it now, because this is all getting quite boring for me.

You mean just as we have done the dance with countless anti-GW folk like you* for a decade and few years more, and find you equally if not even more boring in your eternal struggle against GW and their games, the predictions of their downfall and whatnot, which have continued to fail since the 90´s and just remain at the level of amateur speculation, hanging on to "proof" like singular sales reports and chairmans preambles ( epic lol here ) - all this delivered with the fiction based view of your arguments being more valid than the non-nay/doomsayers people, arrogant beyond measure attitude, constantly being on the offensive, and doing everything in your power to spread the word of anti-gw.

All you bring to these forums is negativity and nitpicking. If there´s a disease on these forums, it´s you ( plural. ) The epitome of boring is the continous campaigning of you anti-GW folk. Luckily there´s a heavily outnumbering amount of people who think the opposite or see both sides of the coin and continue providing a positive experience.

 RunicFIN wrote:



It was humour, but I forgot I´m dealing with Comic Book Guys. Humour time over.

I hope you understand if your attempt at humour falls a little flat when you've spent most of your time on these boards calling people out for being anti-GW.

 Blacksails wrote:

I hope you understand if your attempt at humour falls a little flat when you've spent most of your time on these boards calling people out for being anti-GW.

It falls flat to everyone but the people who find vaurious things about this current trend on this very forum hilarious. Ofcourse no anti-gw person ( be it 40-60% or 0-100% on the axis ) will find it so, they would be laughing at themselves. See my above post that pretty much summarizes how boring it´s getting.

Luckily the core of this wave ( as these do come in waves since the 90´s indeed, always doomsaying/predicting this and that and always failing in the end without exception as GW and the people who enjoy their games march on without effect ) consists of only around 7 users and it didn´t take too much effort to put ( so far the most biased of ) them on ignore. The way this "core" group can be perceived with just a glance just goes to show it´s just a few people making all the negative noise.

Sure, 7 users.

That's it.

Not like there's a petition of nearly 10k people all seeking change from GW.

Oh, and its totally cyclical. All of this will blow away...conveniently with most of GW's customers.

Probably best to just ignore it and call it a trend. Like the internet, or Pokemon.

 RunicFIN wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

I hope you understand if your attempt at humour falls a little flat when you've spent most of your time on these boards calling people out for being anti-GW.

It falls flat to everyone but the people who find vaurious things about this current trend on this very forum hilarious. Ofcourse no anti-gw person ( be it 40-60% or 0-100% on the axis ) will find it so, they would be laughing at themselves. See my above post that pretty much summarizes how boring it´s getting.

Luckily the core of this wave ( as these do come in waves since the 90´s indeed, always doomsaying/predicting this and that and always failing in the end without exception as GW and the people who enjoy their games march on without effect ) consists of only around 7 users and it didn´t take too much effort to put them on ignore. Just goes to show it´s just a few dogs making all the negative noise.

So if you just ignore the people saying there's a problem, it means there's no problem at all.

Yet facts show a decline in sales and some VERY smart businesspeople have analyzed the financial report to indicate there are major issues.

 Blacksails wrote:

Not like there's a petition of nearly 10k people all seeking change from GW.

Because signing that petition equals being one of these users I mentioned. But you already knew that it doesn´t of course, so I don´t even know why you made this "comparison."

Even I signed the petition, as it was improvement suggestions presented in a neutral, good manner instead of the garbage you see in the vaurious threads from both sides. Just that the naysayers bore me more, as they have a continued trend of being wrong for over a decade, next to the continous negativity and other traits I already mentioned.

So you're saying there's only 7 people who are a problem? I'm not quite following what you're saying about these 7 users you've ignored.

Clearly you agree with what a lot of people say about GW if you've signed the petition. Maybe I'm not following why you seem to go on about all the anti-GW and GW hate.

I hope I've earned a spot on his ignore list.

 Blacksails wrote:
So you're saying there's only 7 people who are a problem? I'm not quite following what you're saying about these 7 users you've ignored.

Clearly you agree with what a lot of people say about GW if you've signed the petition. Maybe I'm not following why you seem to go on about all the anti-GW and GW hate.

He seems to be spouting out the typical crap that it's just a gang of us on forums like this and others who go around bashing GW and predicting doom while everyone else is happy, so by ignoring those 7 people he's eliminated all of the anti-GW sentiment, therefore it was just a gang of us forum trolls stirring the pot and GW is fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I hope I've earned a spot on his ignore list.

I'm sure you have. Not sure if I am, 50/50 chance I think.

 Blacksails wrote:
So you're saying there's only 7 people who are a problem? I'm not quite following what you're saying about these 7 users you've ignored.

There´s a distinct small group of users that are responsible for around 80% of the anti-gw oriented content in the last 3 weeks, mostly generating negative content. They aren´t a problem per say, just that the amount of these threads and "discussions" is giving Dakka a bit of a negative vibe. And I haven´t ignored all of them, just the 4 most biased ones as there´s no point in interacting with stone walls.

 RunicFIN wrote:



It was humour, but I forgot I´m dealing with Comic Book Guys. Humour time over.

Humour 101: Be funny.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RunicFIN wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
So you're saying there's only 7 people who are a problem? I'm not quite following what you're saying about these 7 users you've ignored.

There´s a distinct small group of users that are responsible for around 80% of the anti-gw oriented content in the last 3 weeks, mostly generating negative content. They aren´t a problem per say, just that the amount of these threads and "discussions" is giving Dakka a bit of a negative vibe. And I haven´t ignored all of them, just the 4 most biased ones as there´s no point in interacting with stone walls.

I love the smell of bovine excrement in the evening.

You do get that if people are posting similar opinions, and creating threads around similar themes, it is because different people have similar opinions.

We don't all have a secret sub forum where we meet in advance and decide what topics we're going to post on just to annoy you.

Well, not every day.

Well, I'm sure we'll disagree on some of those users, and I certainly don't feel the negative vibe. I see a lot of people questioning what's going on with a game they clearly love enough to log on to a forum and express that sentiment, so I don't really have a problem with it.

Frankly, I see as much backlash in those threads from people complaining about complaining, or threads started in response to this 'anti-GW content'. Its a discussion forum, you're going to get opinions of every sort. Putting them into boxes with labels like 'Anti-GW', and by extension, 'Pro-GW' does nothing to further good discussion.

Always remember most of what you might deem negative is coming from people who genuinely either still love or care about the game, or want to come back to it. For a number of reasons, these people feel its not worth their time, money, and effort.

Instead of calling it a negative vibe, or disease, or anti whatever, try engaging and asking why or what GW could do in their opinion to bring them back. You'll develop a better understand of where these posts come from.

I haven't typed out pages worth of stuff about GW and 40k because I like to hate things. I do it because I would love for GW to pull its head out of its ass and make a game worth the price their asking.

Either way, I wouldn't so quick to dismiss this as a cyclical thing. The GW of 20 years ago is not the GW of now in any way. They are two dramatically different companies in two dramatically environments, and I'd heed the warning signs and voices that are popping up.

PhantomViper wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:

When you can point out where i've exactly said "bestest miniatures in the whole wide world" (and no goal post moving, I want that exact statement) I'll stop claiming you seem to be annoyed that i've spoken about a games company you are mad at.

I actually think for the record, Malifaux hold the title of 'best looking mini in a games system'.

There you go:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
When other companies (apart from Wyrd) start producing decent quality miniatures I'll be tempted to say enough is enough with GW, but the likes of Mantic have a long way to go. Prodos are getting there, but still a way off.

Its not an exact quote but if you read my statement it was under quotation marks meaning that it wasn't an exact quote from you but that I was paraphrasing. You can read this article if you wan't to read further about what I meant in my reply (its the last example in that subsection). Funny how you are demonstrating these difficulties with the English language and its various styles of written prose when just a few posts ago you were bemoaning having been misinterpreted by non-native speakers...

Like I said, this might seem all fresh and new to you but we've all been around this dance floor with several WKs before that have used the exact same tactics as you are using, so I think I'll leave it now, because this is all getting quite boring for me.

See, it IS that easy to win an argument when you pull quotes out of context or pull replies out of a thread and stand them alone. You can even start telling people what they've said.

This is why I love the Internet, and having the last word of course (that's the best way to win)

 Azreal13 wrote:

We don't all have a secret sub forum where we meet in advance and decide what topics we're going to post on just to annoy you.

Well, not every day.

If you did and I didn't know about it, I'd be a little upset.

Did you not get the memo?

I'll get ALL OF THE MODS to add you to the mailing list.

That doesn't sound suspicious at all!

 Blacksails wrote:
Either way, I wouldn't so quick to dismiss this as a cyclical thing. The GW of 20 years ago is not the GW of now in any way. They are two dramatically different companies in two dramatically environments, and I'd heed the warning signs and voices that are popping up.

I guess we´ll see about that in say, 5 years? Or 10 if that´s too soon. Guess I need to parent some wargamers pretty soon so they can be there in time to discuss things with Azreal19, WayneTheGameJr and SONOFHistorian.

 Blacksails wrote:
That doesn't sound suspicious at all!

Nope, not in the least suspicious.

Nothing to see here.

 RunicFIN wrote:


I guess we´ll see about that in say, 5 years? Or 10 if that´s too soon. Guess I need to parent some wargamers pretty soon so they can be there in time to discuss things with Azreal19, WayneTheGame Jr and SonOfHistorian.

There's a financial report every 6 months. The next one is a little over two months away. We'll know the state of GW far sooner than 5 years.

That and children terrify me. A puppy is enough work for me.

 RunicFIN wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Either way, I wouldn't so quick to dismiss this as a cyclical thing. The GW of 20 years ago is not the GW of now in any way. They are two dramatically different companies in two dramatically environments, and I'd heed the warning signs and voices that are popping up.

I guess we´ll see about that in say, 5 years? Or 10 if that´s too soon. Guess I need to parent some wargamers pretty soon so they can be there in time to discuss things with Azreal19, WayneTheGame Jr and SonOfHistorian.

The flaw in the cyclical arguments is there are very good and tangible reasons that reset GW onto an upward trajectory on each of the last significant occasions that they were on their uppers. Kirby's buyout in the 90s and the LotR licence outperforming all expectations in the 00s.

I am at a loss to see where the next angelic event is going to come from, assuming they don't have something miraculous up their sleeve, and I can't even begin to guess at something feasible that could produce that sort of turnaround from GW itself, given their track record recently has just been to rehash older material.

Maybe 8th edition 40k?

They could finally nail it this time. For sure. Definitely.

With all the competition, it is hard to see what GW could do. Clearly the policy of expensive and poorly polished rules with hit and miss releases on a schedule no one knows isn't working. I'd also be doubtful that fixing most of those issues would bring back enough players who have stopped buying, at least in any meaningful way.

I guess they could always take a bit of a gamble and re-release most of the specialist line up with updated rules and new plastics.

So rather than GW specific rage, do we see any merit to tabletop gaming "end times"?

My kids and I like computer/tablet/game systems well enough but something about physical objects still have their draw.

I wish more gaming companies were publically traded so we could see trends other than the non-typical GW.

Fantasy Flight in particular is of interest; we cannot seem to keep X-wing stuff on the shelves in my area.

Magic the Gathering is HUGE in the area so facing an opponent and collectable items seem to be liked by customers.

Not much else I can point to; GW "end of times" seems to be the main topic and I know "it has been predicted before many times in the past".

Nah, tabletop wargaming predates GW and it will outlive it.

Should GW disappear (something I find difficult to believe, although I don't discount being changed beyond recognition) then the landscape will alter, there are enough credible alternatives to GW games now that people could switch - which is one of the key differences to other times when the death of GW has been predicted.

 Talizvar wrote:
So rather than GW specific rage, do we see any merit to tabletop gaming "end times"?

For the same reason that the theatre continues to survive in the age of tv and movies, table top gaming will always have it's adherents. Though niche, it gives you something computer games don't.

It will have a big effect on other companies should GW fall over.

The vacuum will benefit some, but wildly over-stretch others. I'd worry for UK based companies trying to jump in graves too quickly, and getting hit with the gravedigger's shovel so to speak.

I suspect it would be like that anecdote Javier Bardem's character tells in Skyfall - there'll be a load of rats in a bucket, ultimately you'll be left with two rats with a taste for other rats.

The Division Of Joy wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
It's not stupid nonsense at all.

I didn't make that statement though. I said I'm happy to play a price to play a certain type of game. If a better option was available, I would switch my buying elsewhere.

I have no real loyality to a brand, I just want to use the best standard of mini to play the best type of game. It's because I've included 40k and WHFB in the list of things I play, it's made people, that have an issue with GW (for a number of reasons, right or wrong) froth at the mouth.

It's very similar to the tribal attitudes people have to games consoles. I don't understand that either.

Hobbys exist to serve us, it's existance is purely to create joy within us. Why it would make people foam at the mouth on the internet is beyond me.

And here comes the final goal post moving and the haterz accusations, again...

No one is frothing at the mouth because you like GW, people are just contesting your claim that GW makes the "bestest miniatures in the whole wide world".

Believe it or not, your tactic is a really old one and people are tired of having to deal with it. You start with a ridiculous claim, when people contest that claim you start moving the goalposts and when even that doesn't make you "win" you resort to calling people haterz... Its getting pretty boring by this point.

When you can point out where i've exactly said "bestest miniatures in the whole wide world" (and no goal post moving, I want that exact statement) I'll stop claiming you seem to be annoyed that i've spoken about a games company you are mad at.

I actually think for the record, Malifaux hold the title of 'best looking mini in a games system'.

Yeah nothing you said was even remotely unfair, I certainly qualify as someone that dislikes GW and your post was entirely reasonable, it certainly didnt warrant the patronizing "besty westy miniatures" thing.

PV is one of a very tiny minority of users that make hating GW seem like an utterly irrational thing to do.

 Blacksails wrote:
Well, I'm sure we'll disagree on some of those users, and I certainly don't feel the negative vibe. I see a lot of people questioning what's going on with a game they clearly love enough to log on to a forum and express that sentiment, so I don't really have a problem with it.

Frankly, I see as much backlash in those threads from people complaining about complaining, or threads started in response to this 'anti-GW content'. Its a discussion forum, you're going to get opinions of every sort. Putting them into boxes with labels like 'Anti-GW', and by extension, 'Pro-GW' does nothing to further good discussion.

Always remember most of what you might deem negative is coming from people who genuinely either still love or care about the game, or want to come back to it. For a number of reasons, these people feel its not worth their time, money, and effort.

Instead of calling it a negative vibe, or disease, or anti whatever, try engaging and asking why or what GW could do in their opinion to bring them back. You'll develop a better understand of where these posts come from.

I haven't typed out pages worth of stuff about GW and 40k because I like to hate things. I do it because I would love for GW to pull its head out of its ass and make a game worth the price their asking.

Either way, I wouldn't so quick to dismiss this as a cyclical thing. The GW of 20 years ago is not the GW of now in any way. They are two dramatically different companies in two dramatically environments, and I'd heed the warning signs and voices that are popping up.

Though, to be fair, some of us have given up on GW - in my case very recently. (The continuing quagmire of the lawsuit against Chapterhouse. With their recent tactics... I will never buy a GW product again unless the current management is ousted, and quite possibly not then.)

I used to hope that GW would turn their ship around, but lately... as far as I am concerned the only negative result if they were to sink beneath the waves would be to the third party manufacturers that supplement the games. I would dislike it very much if Chapterhouse, Kromlech, or Victoria Miniatures went under because of the collapse of GW.

In any event, the next financial report is going to be interesting. I predict that there will be a slight uptick because of 7th edition, but not as large as Kirby and the Kronies would like.

But I have not bought 40K since 4th edition, and have not played any edition since 3rd ended. (Mind you, up until recently I still played 3rd....)

So, yeah... some of us have given up.

The Auld Grump

Although I am baffled on why one would like to play a game like 40k at the model size it has been bloated nowadays, purely out of tabletop size vital space available after the models and (the limited) terrain are placed on it, I can understand the visual appeal somebody may have from masses of things cluttering the table.

But I must add that this is not a decision the developers had, but it is a decision the accounting had, if somebody cares to listen to podcasts interviewing ex GW designers Rick Priestly in particular one would have known that 3rd edition (and every edition onward) is nothing but the hastily jury-rigging of his home made 15mm WW2 ruleset because the tops send a memo demanding the rules to field twice the miniatures 2nd edition had, they had to scrap their, according to him quite good skirmish system they had developed and modify on the fly the above mentioned ruleset he used for playing at home, imagine that a 15mm rules set used with 28mm miniatures.

So no no other company will ever provide sanely the experience GW tries to offer, primarily because they do not have the in house plastic production GW has and are not driven by the same need to sell that many models to justify the economics of scale for the plastic models infrastructure and secondary because the humble 6x4 table is not an area big enough to play such massive forces with 28mm (approximately) models.

As for the models debate, I cannot accept the comment about CB and GW having equal miniatures (or GW having better) especially when 2nd ED gets involved in, everything is different but on equal terms that is individual "hero models" GW looses on quality, price and execution even in their monopose plastics which are a far better quality that multi part plastics and no cluttering the model with stuff on it does not raise the models "quality" it just makes it more cluttered.

On the actual subject, I do not thing much will change for the worse if GW leaves, although I am sure somebody will try and salvage the wreck before it goes, either internally somebody who has a clue or externally somebody or a group of companies, the IP is well established and loved, but more importantly their plastics production is one of the best there is (although disappointingly under utilized) and I am sure many can see the potential in rescuing this part.

Most of the companies running today are smart companies who can manage their growth and their manufacturing does not demand to bloat their games to the levels GW has to survive indefinitely, GWs massive armies size comes primarily from their plastics production which demands due to the economy of scale massive production runs to justify the cost, something the other companies do not have and do not intent to have "size creep" is not a one way road and if a company knows what they are doing, they do not need to go that road.

Funnily enough, I think I might have got the 4th Ed rulebook for a fiver off ebay on a whim, a while back. I still have the 5th Ed book, and I know I got 6th Ed for £10 just a couple months ago.

I also have the Space Marine Codex 4th Ed - 6th Ed.

Assuming that I ever motivate myself to play 40K again, I could if I wished (and found a willing opponent) play 4th, 5th or 6th.

Not gonna bother with 7th whatsoever...Unless I can get it for a fiver of course.

Do the older Edtions compare favourabley to the current 7th Ed? I started with 5th Ed, have not yet played 6th and 4th was before my time...or rather, I was a spotty teenager playing LOTR not 40K. Now I'm a 23 year old once again playing LOTR, not 40K.

The Division Of Joy wrote:
The would all look better if they had the same paint job standard, apart from the Abaddon maybe. I'll give you that one.

I had the operation Icestorm box in my hands last night, nearly bought it as the models would proxy well for awful Enforcers in Deadzone. I bought some Malifuax stuff instead.

Not trolling at all. If you can't have a discussion without calling windup within a few minutes, I'll have to assume you are trying to start one of these 'flame wars' I keep reading about.

I notice no-one has given me a better product, at a cheaper pricepoint, for a large scale 40k style or fantasy style game

I will also post a link to a page i talked about exactly the reason why most companies do not create a 28mm large scale game http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/619633.page#7294644

In sort summery it is due too first off how the game scale does not work with the miniature scale and leads to a very poor game system and a lack of many aspects gamers want in their game ( such as mobility and some scale of realism in the game) , Also that the price cost for doing so is rather extremely high and it is better for companies to start with something that can be funded set up and then supported with reasonable investments. In the end 28mm scale wargames should never ever be set at a bigger scale than a single platoon size scale and some times that can even be pushing it.

as a guy who just buys what i like, and doesn't play any games, my collection runs across many manufacturers...
having been collecting for 30 years now, it also runs across many editions of the evolution of 28mm minis, as well...
i buy, and have bought, minis from GW, Rackham, Ral Partha, Dark-Age, Hasslefree, Freebooter, CB, Studio McVey, CMoN, Ilyad, PP, and many others...
as i've said many times, the mini that i keep coming back to above all others is the humble Space Marine...
nothing in the whole industry inspires me to paint like a Space Marine does...

the only difference among the best quality companies is aesthetic...
the quality of an Infinity sculpt is equal to a Space Marine...
they are both sculpted and cast to the highest capabilities of the mediums involved (plastic vs. metal)...
one is only better than the other if you prefer one style over another...

i love my Infinity minis, but i paint Marines because they fire up my imagination, and desire to create little parts of the fiction in miniature form, way more than any Infinity mini does...
what's more, i can sell a painted Marine for four times what my Infinity minis sell for, with the same quality of work...
95% of my commissions are Marines, too...
for me, as a painter who needs to make a living, Marines are still the big item...

i wouldn't mind if Infinity could pay the bills, but i know i would miss painting Marines...
no fiction, art, or sculpt, on the market gives me the same joy that a Marine does...
does that mean i have bad taste in minis???
i don't think so, as i buy minis from a broad range of companies, in a variety of styles...
yet, when it comes time to paint, 9 out of 10 times i'm reaching for a GW mini...

call me a white knight if you will, but in reality it is just a love for a certain aesthetic, backed up by nearly a lifetime of being inspired by the art and fiction of GW...

if GW ever failed as a company, and 40K products dried up, i would still have enough minis to last me a lifetime...
it would definitely be a boon for all the smaller companies out there, allowing their products to get more of the hobbyists' money...
i would definitely be buying more Infinity...
i'd still be painting Space Marines, though, as there are enough dream projects in my head to carry me along for many years to come...

cheers
jah

While I can appreciate that the topic is a rather heated one, maybe, everyone needs to remember to follow all of the rules of Dakka Dakka when posting anywhere on...Dakka Dakka.

Especially Rule #1.

Maybe I feel the End Times are not coming to the Hobby in general. Reading your messages maybe the End Times are coming to Large Scale 28mm Battle Games?

I still think GW is going downhill. Even if some oldies say " People been saying this for years", the wargaming market is full of alternatives like never before. Many companies are getting a slice of GW market, offering product at least equal to GW quality but most important: Giving better value to START THE GAME. Period. GW can make awesome models, may even have prices more of less compatible with the newcomers. But to start their games I need to spend hundreds of dollars, and many more to achieve average games.

Is not so drastic when some of you already been in the hobby for 2,3,10.17 years...But try to start from scratch today, like I'm trying to do, and honestly tell me that what GW offer is great.

I was leaning towards 40K. But when I enter many Foruns and everyone is talking about a bloated ruleset, and singing praise about other sytems, it's simply a no brainer to invest in other games.

Personally, this White Knight or Plaguebearers stuff about liking/disliking GW is kinda childish to me. There's only gamers and customers. Some are happy with what they're buying, some are not. Each have the right to speak their minds without risk of being conscripted at one of the two "armies".

Large-scale battle games were always an outlier, especially in the way 40k handles it. WHFB worked decently because, despite the fact it had casualty removal you moved things as blocks of units, not individual models.

The big issue with 40k is that for the type of game it wants to be (i.e. large-scale), 28mm with individual figures is not the right way to go about it.

I have been assuming that The End Times part of the title is referring only to GW - that a more accurate description of the topic might be:
The End Times of GW and Its Effect Upon Tabletop Wargaming.

But then I sometimes read academic papers, where verbose titles are present in an effort to limit misrepresentation of the materials....

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
I have been assuming that The End Times part of the title is referring only to GW - that a more accurate description of the topic might be:
The End Times of GW and Its Effect Upon Tabletop Wargaming.

But then I sometimes read academic papers, where verbose titles are present in an effort to limit misrepresentation of the materials....

The Auld Grump

LOL! Same here. The history papers I usually read are "Helmet and armor construction during the late Roman Empire, fifth century." A thrilling title!

WayneTheGame wrote:
Large-scale battle games were always an outlier, especially in the way 40k handles it. WHFB worked decently because, despite the fact it had casualty removal you moved things as blocks of units, not individual models.

The big issue with 40k is that for the type of game it wants to be (i.e. large-scale), 28mm with individual figures is not the right way to go about it.

Also, WHFB worked pretty well, because at the height of a battle it's not unreasonable to have hundreds of soldiers killing each other on a section of ground the size of a soccer field. Of course WHFB purports to be the entire battle, but at least the figs-to-area ratio is is easier to justify.

The Fantasy-Battles-in-Space thing as 40k presents itself is pretty goofy. Some folks -even myself- like goofy, but goofy get's less appealing the more expensive it becomes.

I always get a bit nervous going back into forum titles that are the classic GW bash, but I like a few elements in this one!

Yes, 28mm played not as skirmish but large battles as a "non-viable" means of play.
I must admit I often feel I am playing in a closet when playing on "standard" tables.
I know these games are not to reflect reality but here is an interesting math exercise (please excuse all the mixing of metric and imperial, I am keeping it straight):

Scale = 28mm, a "foot" in this scale is about 4.17mm.
Common longer range of a weapon is 48" = 1219mm.
Simulated distance of 48" is 292 feet or 89 meters.

Now going to quote "effective ranges of various weapons in meters: (grabbed stats from here:http://www.bu.edu/nrotc/semperfi/gouge/Weapon%5B1%5D.htm)
M-16A2 Service Rifle: 550m
M9 Service Pistol: 50m
TOW Missile: 3750m
Frag Grenades (M61 & M67): Avg distance thrown: 40m, kill radius: 5m

For interests sake a musket shot (http://allthingsliberty.com/2013/08/how-far-is-musket-shot-farther-than-you-think/)
300 yards = 274 meters (normal not being fired upon)
240 yard = 219 meters ("inattentiveness" by combat etc.)

So 27" on the tabletop is comfortable pistol use and 22" is grenade throw distance.

Scale = 15mm, a "foot" in this scale is about 2.5mm.
Simulated distance of 48" is 488 feet or 149 meters.

6mm scale puts 48" on tabletop at around 376 meters of simulated distance.

So yeah, GW "Epic" scale 40k seems appropriate for the scale that our latest edition wants to be played.
I am also aware that with all the future tech ranges could be rendered meaningless in many ways.

As someone who is by definition "one of those dagnab kids" I'm getting annoyed with this mentality of: "Kids have no patience!" "GW is pandering to children and ruining the hobby!" "Stupid American teenagers ruining 40k!"

Are there annoying kids in the 40k community, yes and I have met them.

There are also annoying adults who are far worse than any sugar fueled brat. (I played a kid around 11 when I was younger who URINATED on the floor while I was playing against him and I have had a lot worse experiences than that.)

Does that mean all kids are attention span-less, obnoxious hell demons barging in on this "srs bizness toy soldier game?"

Does that mean all adults who play 40k are Power gaming, social skill less neck beards?

No!

I know it is tempting to label all kids/teens as being horrible but the attitudes aimed towards them tempted me to leave the hobby more than a few times and I feel (just a feeling no statistics to back up) that might have something to do with the declining player base.

Just an opinion and not trying to point any fingers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also on style matter 40k may have some glaring issues (general lack of female models, few good robed models to work with) as someone who writes fiction from time to time 40K has a ridiculous amount of untapped ideas and creative potential that I really can't find in the same excess as 40k.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
As someone who is by definition "one of those dagnab kids" I'm getting annoyed with this mentality of: "Kids have no patience!" "GW is pandering to children and ruining the hobby!" "Stupid American teenagers ruining 40k!"

Are there annoying kids in the 40k community, yes and I have met them.

There are also annoying adults who are far worse than any sugar fueled brat. (I played a kid around 11 when I was younger who URINATED on the floor while I was playing against him and I have had a lot worse experiences than that.)

Does that mean all kids are attention span-less, obnoxious hell demons barging in on this "srs bizness toy soldier game?"

Does that mean all adults who play 40k are Power gaming, social skill less neck beards?

No!

I know it is tempting to label all kids/teens as being horrible but the attitudes aimed towards them tempted me to leave the hobby more than a few times and I feel (just a feeling no statistics to back up) that might have something to do with the declining player base.

Just an opinion and not trying to point any fingers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also on style matter 40k may have some glaring issues (general lack of female models, few good robed models to work with) as someone who writes fiction from time to time 40K has a ridiculous amount of untapped ideas and creative potential that I really can't find in the same excess as 40k.

Speaking as a curmudgeonly old grognard... I started wargaming in my early teens - once upon a time I was the youngest member of my local wargaming community. (Those days are long fled.)

I used to run a Military Science class at a summer program for teens and tweens and have run Mordheim campaigns for teens and tweens.

My favorite stories from those games are the ones where I lost.

The experiences of a teen become the experiences of an adult with the addition of time.

I do not blame teens, tweens, or kids for what is going on with GW - I blame GW's perception of those kids. The folks at GW are underestimating their target audience.

The Auld Grump, who wishes that he still had the Minifig Prussians that he painted in 1975....