I just got on reddit (I know. oops) to post for some advice about getting back into 40k (I've just been collecting models for painting mostly as of late instead of playing), and to save you peeps from another "40k n00b halp!" post. So to get to the point, the subreddit was having some flame war with another site and decided to insult them as much as possible until they shut down their page. I thought it was hilarious, until I read the insults, most of which were slurs against LGBT people.

I want to say that I don't care much for "political correctness" as I feel it too often prevents people from expressing themselves. Plus, it still accommodates offensive language, it just changes the vocabulary. My problem is that the default verbal attack people tend to have on the internet, across the table, or over headset is to use gay slurs. The second seems to be about sex/gender (which a lot of people think are the same thing)..

I usually don't , but this type of stuff wounds me. You never get used to it. You never get "tougher" or more accustomed to it. It never just plinks off your armor. At least for me. So what can be done about this type of behavior? I know this isn't something that everyone does, but it certainly is something the loudest people do.

Sorry if this should be in OT, I just want to know how you dudes handle this within the gaming community. I certainly exercise the "just don't play them" rule when I hear people saying this stuff but it's still overheard and seems to be getting worse.

There were insults against anyone and everything. The whole point was to be as crass and offensive as possible.

I wouldn't use a campaign aimed to be as offensive as possible to stop other sites from stealing content as any sort of indication about the wargaming community.

D'ya think it could've been done any other way? That whole debacle is only a symptom I feel. I want to know what can actually be done to combat hatespeech within gaming without resorting to "heterosexually challenged" etc.

You can't do anything except for being a better example yourself.

Awww, See? That's just super nice and makes me feel very empowered.

 Sigvatr wrote:
You can't do anything except for being a better example yourself.

This sums up mu feelings on this matter

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
D'ya think it could've been done any other way? That whole debacle is only a symptom I feel. I want to know what can actually be done to combat hatespeech within gaming without resorting to "heterosexually challenged" etc.

But there dozens of other incredibly crass, racist, and generally offensive titles.

That was the entire point. A site was stealing content wholesale, so to send a message, they included incredibly offensive things to bring notice to the site's owner. It worked, because in the thread, the site's owner said he was taking it down and would seek permission before using content.

It's not a debacle about hatred of a certain people, it was a way to send a message to a site stealing content. That's it. None of it was serious.

I think the point that the OP is trying to make is that in order to send the message, they used slurs and hate speech typically aimed at the LGBT Community. I believe his question is why do they resort to that instead of say ... racial slurs against blacks, latinos, or asians?

"None of it was serious" ... hate speech in jest is still hate speech.

Exactly. You can't expect it to roll off everyone's back just so, when the words themselves (not just the intent) are inflammatory.

Is everyone then equally offended by all the other comments in the titles?

Because for every homophobic slur I saw, there were a dozen others about supporting ISIS, loving Hitler, and equating MMMOS.com to the illuminati.

My point is that this thread was started in response to a campaign aimed to write down as many offensive things as possible. To that extent, clearly it worked, in that people got offended, and the content is no longer being stolen.

You know, inform yourselves about all this. This entire thread is trying to make an issue using an example that is not indicative of anything other than people deliberately trying to be as offensive as possible.

Thread about sci-fi gamer
Thread about MMMOS.com

no sure why the OP is singling out the gaming community, clearly this is a problem with society as a whole.

I blame religion for propagating the idea that same sex relationships are a sin. if you look at civilisations pre-Christianity/Islam, homosexuality/lesbianism was open and even celebrated. So, if you want to point the blame, organised religion is where you should start, rather than the gaming community.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
no sure why the OP is singling out the gaming community, clearly this is a problem with society as a whole.

I am in agreement with tyrannosaurus, the hate speech being propagated in the 40k subreddit is systemtic of reddit as a whole- and reddit tends to be a variable microcosm of the overall community. I see this sort of thing in all sorts of different parts of reddit, it has nothing to do with the gaming community and everything to do with society as a whole.

As far as what do to about it- I think Blacksails hit the nail on the head. Don't be a part of it.

Reddit is pretty terrible for most things. Trolls and slimeballs. I've asked for actual advice on what looked like a decent forum and got insulted by 90% of people replying just because they can.

I think it's called the "reality filter".

If they said those things IRL they'd get the crap kicked out of them.

The internet creates a buffer of sorts so people can take out their frustrations on other without consequence.

It's also another way people try to discredit those they don't like publicly with minimal risk to themselves.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
no sure why the OP is singling out the gaming community, clearly this is a problem with society as a whole.

I blame religion for propagating the idea that same sex relationships are a sin. if you look at civilisations pre-Christianity/Islam, homosexuality/lesbianism was open and even celebrated. So, if you want to point the blame, organised religion is where you should start, rather than the gaming community.

I'm not even going to start on how immensely offensive that is.

Are people still having a hard time understanding that the entire subreddit was trying to be as offensive as possible?

If you're using this type of event to make a claim about wargamers having a problem with homophobia, then you must clearly be equally alarmed with all the ISIS supporters and people who think Hitler was an okay dude within the wargaming community.

Read the threads I linked. You'll notice one of the lines says to make every title as unfit for public consumption as humanly possible.

Being offended by this is exactly what the goal was. They achieved their goal by having the site in question stop stealing their stuff.

Don't make this into an issue its clearly not about.

The extremists at both ends of the spectrum are a minority, but because they make the most noise they seem like a majority.

 Blacksails wrote:
Are people still having a hard time understanding that the entire subreddit was trying to be as offensive as possible?

If you're using this type of event to make a claim about wargamers having a problem with homophobia, then you must clearly be equally alarmed with all the ISIS supporters and people who think Hitler was an okay dude within the wargaming community.

Read the threads I linked. You'll notice one of the lines says to make every title as unfit for public consumption as humanly possible.

Being offended by this is exactly what the goal was. They achieved their goal by having the site in question stop stealing their stuff.

Don't make this into an issue its clearly not about.

No we all get it, still does change the fact it a sad thing and should be pointed out and hopefully in the end less people will going to reddit.

Noir wrote:


No we all get it, still does change the fact it a sad thing and should be pointed out and hopefully in the end less people will going to reddit.

What's sad?

I don't get it. You're offended by something with the express and clear intent to be offensive for a very specific end goal.

I don't understand any of the issues brought up by the OP.

If the OP suspects there's a problem with the community, then I suggest new evidence is brought up, because that specific reddit example is rather poor.

 Blacksails wrote:

Noir wrote:


No we all get it, still does change the fact it a sad thing and should be pointed out and hopefully in the end less people will going to reddit.

What's sad?

I don't get it. You're offended by something with the express and clear intent to be offensive for a very specific end goal.

I don't understand any of the issues brought up by the OP.

If the OP suspects there's a problem with the community, then I suggest new evidence is brought up, because that specific reddit example is rather poor.

There's nothing better than talking about how much you hate communities belittling another group of people by...belittling another group of people.

"Those redditors are such vile trash!"

Hey man, gotta get that hate out against someone.

Especially when the entire point everything was offensive was because they wanted it to be offensive to get content removed on another site.

Reason doesn't matter when you get to participate in a public thrashing. Come on everyone, pile in!

 Blacksails wrote:
Especially when the entire point everything was offensive was because they wanted it to be offensive to get content removed on another site.

Doesn't matter the reason, I view poeple on what the say or in this case type, you don't want to look like a hate filled jerk don't act like one, period.

Noir wrote:


Doesn't matter the reason, I view poeple on what the say or in this case type, you don't want to look like a hate filled jerk don't act like one, period.

They were asked by the mod of the forum to make the titles of the threads as offensive as possible because another site was stealing their content.

You can act all morally superior all you want, but getting offended about this or casting these people in a bad light is a little ridiculous when you consider the context and actually go read most of the titles.

None of those people are hate filled jerks.

 Blacksails wrote:

Noir wrote:


Doesn't matter the reason, I view poeple on what the say or in this case type, you don't want to look like a hate filled jerk don't act like one, period.

They were asked by the mod of the forum to make the titles of the threads as offensive as possible because another site was stealing their content.

You can act all morally superior all you want, but getting offended about this or casting these people in a bad light is a little ridiculous when you consider the context and actually go read most of the titles.

None of those people are hate filled jerks.

So if the mod ask them to go out into the street and same the same things, you be OK with that. Becouse they don't really mean it.

Wait were you one of them and now trying to make yourself feel better becouse you followed the crowd, thinking it was cool to say all that stuff becouse everyone else did. That thinking caused lots of issue over the course of history.

Noir wrote:


So if the mod ask them to go out into the street and same the same things, you be OK with that. Becouse they don't really mean it.

Oh, yeah, cause that's totally the same thing.

That's your argument? Have you read most of the titles? Have you read the mod posts? Did you understand the situation? Did you see how it resolved?

Seriously, context is important here.

You can do better than a slippery slope fallacy.

I'll admit that I did post this after getting fed up with the MMMO/SciFi Gamer stuff, but it's an issue that I experience much more within the gaming community than most other places I go.

Just to be clear, I'm MTF trans, and I live in a very very RED state. I get a lot of gak. And I would say I get more from "gamers" than any other group. I still haven't been back to the gaming store where I was told my face was being raped. I no longer frequent AchievementHunter.com, even though I love most of their content.

I worry that these subtle jokes and jabs ("lololomg get over it, don't be so sensitive") will just keep getting worse. Maybe I shouldn't expect so much from people, but I would hate for our community to be lumped in with other hategroups.

BTW, I'm super glad the sub got those places to shut down, but I think a middle finger watermark would have been more fun.

 Blacksails wrote:

Noir wrote:


So if the mod ask them to go out into the street and same the same things, you be OK with that. Becouse they don't really mean it.

Oh, yeah, cause that's totally the same thing.

That's your argument? Have you read most of the titles? Have you read the mod posts? Did you understand the situation? Did you see how it resolved?

Seriously, context is important here.

You can do better than a slippery slope fallacy.

No I get it you think becouse it is on the internet, it is all good. I think if you aren't willing to do it off the internet you should do it on the internet. The reason people post insults shouldn't matter, what matters is what people do. Either you have respected for others or you don't, someone with a position of power (the mod) sayings go ahead it OK here doesn't change that fact.

Ouch! I've injured myself again rolling my eyes so much...

Really, this whole thread is pretty pointless. It's obvious it wasn't "The Gaming Community" and obvious many more variants of insults were represented. The OP is cherry picking things to support their cause.


Also, Louie CK said it best about a common gay slur:

TOTALLY NOT SAFE FOR WORK OR PEOPLE EASILY OFFENDED BY GAY SLURS WITH A FUNNY CONTEXT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcja4WFFzDw

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
Awww, See? That's just super nice and makes me feel very empowered.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.

 Sigvatr wrote:


I'm not even going to start on how immensely offensive that is.

Sorry you were offended, doesn't stop it being true.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:


I'm not even going to start on how immensely offensive that is.

Sorry you were offended, doesn't stop it being true.

Personal opinion doesn't necessarily mean the same as truth.

Moved to the Off-Topic forum, since we generally keep these kinds of discussions in this section.

Thanks!!! I wasn't sure!

Sooooo, do you think these redditors would like to do the same campaign against Blue Table Painting, since they're also thieves?

So if I get this right, they were trying to be offensive in order to destroy some thread. That doesn't sound like a good plan. It's the old two wrongs don't make a right thing.

To the wider question of homophobia and such in gaming. I don't know. I kind of feel behind the times on this topic because I expect to see hate, but don't always find it. (I don't really go to places like redit.) It still surprises me though. I keep expecting things to work like how they worked way back.

nomotog wrote:
So if I get this right, they were trying to be offensive in order to destroy some thread. That doesn't sound like a good plan. It's the old two wrongs don't make a right thing.

To the wider question of homophobia and such in gaming. I don't know. I kind of feel behind the times on this topic because I expect to see hate, but don't always find it. (I don't really go to places like redit.) It still surprises me though. I keep expecting things to work like how they worked way back.

Not quite. A bot was automatically scraping (i.e. reposting without attributing the original creator) content off of the reddit page, and doing so without checking what the content actually was. ( This is important ).

Because of the means used to "steal" the content off of reddit, the content contributors banded together to "game the system" so to speak. By putting obviously and horrendously offensive material in their post titles, the end result is that the content-stealing sites appear to endorse those offensive things, while everyone "in on the game" in the subreddit knows to ignore those parts of the post titles.

It's like this: Consider if a news network was recording everything you said, and dubbing that audio over that of their guest speaker (without checking what was actually said), in a way that made it appear the guest speaker was actually saying those things. Now, if you've got lots of great ideas that you talk about, this news network might be inhibiting your ability to "get to market first" with those ideas (bear with me, this is just an example). So you decide to say really vulgar, hurtful things to exploit the fact that their method of stealing is pretty dumb, thereby punishing the network without ever having to lift a finger against them. You effectively hoist them upon their own petard.

 Xca|iber wrote:

nomotog wrote:
So if I get this right, they were trying to be offensive in order to destroy some thread. That doesn't sound like a good plan. It's the old two wrongs don't make a right thing.

To the wider question of homophobia and such in gaming. I don't know. I kind of feel behind the times on this topic because I expect to see hate, but don't always find it. (I don't really go to places like redit.) It still surprises me though. I keep expecting things to work like how they worked way back.

Not quite. A bot was automatically scraping (i.e. reposting without attributing the original creator) content off of the reddit page, and doing so without checking what the content actually was. ( This is important ).

Because of the means used to "steal" the content off of reddit, the content contributors banded together to "game the system" so to speak. By putting obviously and horrendously offensive material in their post titles, the end result is that the content-stealing sites appear to endorse those offensive things, while everyone "in on the game" in the subreddit knows to ignore those parts of the post titles.

It's like this: Consider if a news network was recording everything you said, and dubbing that audio over that of their guest speaker (without checking what was actually said), in a way that made it appear the guest speaker was actually saying those things. Now, if you've got lots of great ideas that you talk about, this news network might be inhibiting your ability to "get to market first" with those ideas (bear with me, this is just an example). So you decide to say really vulgar, hurtful things to exploit the fact that their method of stealing is pretty dumb, thereby punishing the network without ever having to lift a finger against them. You effectively hoist them upon their own petard.

Ya I get that, but couldn't they have solved their problem without being offensive. It just seems kind of wrong to use offensive content as a weapon.

Considering the nigh-supersonic speed with which this method resolved their problem, I would say it was by far the best (and funniest) solution.

I mean, yes, much of what was posted was practically gag-inducing, but it was clear (to me) from the context that none of the people on that subreddit believed that those things were okay to say. (Sure, maybe one or two of them actually believed those things, but based on the past history of that sub, it is patently obvious that everyone involved understands that those are not appropriate things to say in most contexts).

It's one thing to run a smear campaign against your opponent, it is entirely another to make your opponent run a smear campaign against themselves.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Ouch! I've injured myself again rolling my eyes so much...
Really, this whole thread is pretty pointless. It's obvious it wasn't "The Gaming Community" and obvious many more variants of insults were represented. The OP is cherry picking things to support their cause.
Also, Louie CK said it best about a common gay slur:
TOTALLY NOT SAFE FOR WORK OR PEOPLE EASILY OFFENDED BY GAY SLURS WITH A FUNNY CONTEXT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcja4WFFzDw

I'm just as offended by the rest of it, I'm just lucky enough to not have to deal with having grandparents who were in the holocaust or being more likely to get shot by police for being the wrong skintone.

Also, you are the 4th person who has linked that Louis CK about this very topic.
I prefer Richard Pryor (a much better comedian), NSFW: http://youtu.be/kRfOOHqkW_s

I can't wait till Kotaku writes an article about this now -_-

 Xca|iber wrote:
Considering the nigh-supersonic speed with which this method resolved their problem, I would say it was by far the best (and funniest) solution.
I mean, yes, much of what was posted was practically gag-inducing, but it was clear (to me) from the context that none of the people on that subreddit believed that those things were okay to say. (Sure, maybe one or two of them actually believed those things, but based on the past history of that sub, it is patently obvious that everyone involved understands that those are not appropriate things to say in most contexts).
It's one thing to run a smear campaign against your opponent, it is entirely another to make your opponent run a smear campaign against themselves.

Oh, I certainly got it, and I'm glad it worked. My problem is that this type of offensive speech is quite often used within the gaming community without pause. I don't want to ignore it anymore, I don't want to quit all the games I love because so many other players are awful. I mentioned this on the sub, and got plenty of slurs and insults for my critique of the tactic. So are THOSE people just joking?

I have to say, I think it's a VERY creative way to fix a problem by making your opponent look like the worst thing ever. My problem is when there isn't a cause to fight anymore and the champions of this cause keep doing the same gak and think it's okay.

It'd be nice is Dakka threw in a few other word filters other than for [see forum posting rules]. Dakka specifically is pretty liberal and generally nice and well moderated ( TO A DEGREE)I'm queer, and while having a few encounters with people in gaming stores opening their mouths and inserting foot I've not experienced to much if any at all.Also, I'm a lot older and while my flame burns long, it isn't the brightest one so most people just don't know. I will however call someone out if they use derogatory terms around me, but also I'm in a pretty liberal city for LGBT so that's probably a lot of it.

 Xca|iber wrote:
Considering the nigh-supersonic speed with which this method resolved their problem, I would say it was by far the best (and funniest) solution.

I mean, yes, much of what was posted was practically gag-inducing, but it was clear (to me) from the context that none of the people on that subreddit believed that those things were okay to say. (Sure, maybe one or two of them actually believed those things, but based on the past history of that sub, it is patently obvious that everyone involved understands that those are not appropriate things to say in most contexts).

It's one thing to run a smear campaign against your opponent, it is entirely another to make your opponent run a smear campaign against themselves.

I might be too.. something here, but if they really believed it wasn't OK to say then they wouldn't have said it. They posted offensive things expecting people to be offended.Their plan required it even. Did they consider that their plan might make people feel uncomfortable and unwelcome? I'm not really a believer in the ends justifying the means and there are so many other means they could have taken that would have also worked.

Quite a [see forum posting rules], if you ask me.

nomotog wrote:


Did they consider that their plan might make people feel uncomfortable and unwelcome?

Uncomfortable and unwelcome where, exactly? Obviously it might be a big shocker to anyone unaware of the issue who is visiting the subreddit, but that's why there was a giant, bold, mod-post at the top of the page explaining what was going on. Moreover, I find it hard to believe that anyone would read that reddit page and immediately assume that it was a reflection of the posters' own thoughts (the unusual setup of the thread titles is a dead giveaway). In fact, most confused people actually seemed to think the page was hacked. In any case, a quick perusal of the mod post explains pretty much the how and why of what was going on - as for anyone who couldn't be bothered to read it before getting upset... well tough luck.

If you're talking about the blog/site that was stealing... in my opinion they got what they deserved. Any one of their subscribers who was offended enough to unsubscribe is a victory for original content creators. (At the very least, an investigation as to why "that blog you follow" suddenly has offensive content will surely lead to the discovery that said blog is stealing that content from elsewhere, thus educating that user).

As for whether there was a better solution, I find in my experience that no solution is better or more satisfying than simply having your opponent/problem destroy itself on your behalf. That is what reddit did here. They took someone's method for scraping original content and turned it against its creator, to extraordinarily effective results.

Ultimately, IMHO, anyone who is so sensitive to such things, or whose morals are so high that turnabouts isn't fair play, then I think it is that person's responsibility to filter their own content themselves, not foist demands on communities that usually (by and large) do not exhibit those offensive behaviors.

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:


Oh, I certainly got it, and I'm glad it worked. My problem is that this type of offensive speech is quite often used within the gaming community without pause. I don't want to ignore it anymore, I don't want to quit all the games I love because so many other players are awful.

It's your decision. You will not change other players. Period. In tabletop gaming, I have once seen a situation where people got really mad at each other, flaming with ohsomany words, but that's one situation in all of my years ref-ing / playing. If you have trouble with a lot of different people in different situations at different places..well...I'd reflect my behavior a bit.

It's different in video games, of course, it's the internet. You get flamed for absolutely everything that there is, with or without reason. And going to reddit and not expecting people to hate on each other is pretty naive. You could literally open a thread about your favorite color and get insulted for liking red. It's the internet. You will not change how people act on the internet. There is absolutely nothing you can do. Zero.

It can't be true that there is nothing that can be done. I mean some places online aren't festering cesspools of .. poo. How do they manage?

nomotog wrote:
It can't be true that there is nothing that can be done. I mean some places online aren't festering cesspools of .. poo. How do they manage?

Strict moderation, comments needing approval / review to be posted, delayed registration etc.

By "you", I referred to you as an individual person.

 Sigvatr wrote:

nomotog wrote:
It can't be true that there is nothing that can be done. I mean some places online aren't festering cesspools of .. poo. How do they manage?

Strict moderation, comments needing approval / review to be posted, delayed registration etc.

By "you", I referred to you as an individual person.

Are we sure there is nothing individuals can do? I maybe too naive, but I don't want to believe there is nothing people can do.

Band together, make your voice be heard, file lawsuits, appeal to authorities...there certainly is stuff you can do, but it hardly matters in the grand scheme or, rather, it barely pays off.

The very best thing that could happen to the internet would be the loss of anonymisation. Each and every user is identified by his actual name. Want to insult someone? Get sued. Want to threaten someone? Get sued. Start a hate tirade online? Get tracked down. And sued.

But alas, that's not possible.

Insulting someone is not typically grounds for a suit in the US. If so most of NY would be in the pen. What are you on about?

 Frazzled wrote:
Insulting someone is not typically grounds for a suit in the US. If so most of NY would be in the pen. What are you on about?

Oh, I meant internet insults.

Still not seeing on what basis you can sue someone.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Band together, make your voice be heard, file lawsuits, appeal to authorities...there certainly is stuff you can do, but it hardly matters in the grand scheme or, rather, it barely pays off.

The very best thing that could happen to the internet would be the loss of anonymisation. Each and every user is identified by his actual name. Want to insult someone? Get sued. Want to threaten someone? Get sued. Start a hate tirade online? Get tracked down. And sued.

But alas, that's not possible.

Ya like the winner dog said. Most insults aren't a suing offense. (Some are, but it's rare.) The no anonymity thing actually sounds like a more risky internet. It means bad things that happen to you online can follow you off line. I mean there is likely a reason that doxing is considered so bad.

Who cares what people say, I have to deal with people insulting god and saying lords name in vain on a daily bases. That hurts me on a personal level then if I say anything that offends the queer I get a ear load. I stopped caring about people when they stopped caring about offending me

OgreChubbs wrote:
Who cares what people say, I have to deal with people insulting god and saying lords name in vain on a daily bases. That hurts me on a personal level then if I say anything that offends the queer I get a ear load. I stopped caring about people when they stopped caring about offending me

I can agree with your first part. I have seen in some subcultures religion and the people who practice it are considered free sport to insult, but I don't believe being insulted gives you free reign to insult others.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Band together, make your voice be heard, file lawsuits, appeal to authorities...there certainly is stuff you can do, but it hardly matters in the grand scheme or, rather, it barely pays off.

The very best thing that could happen to the internet would be the loss of anonymisation. Each and every user is identified by his actual name. Want to insult someone? Get sued. Want to threaten someone? Get sued. Start a hate tirade online? Get tracked down. And sued.

But alas, that's not possible.

Get sued? For what? Insulting someone online isn't grounds for a civil suit. If you start to attack people based on their beliefs, you are not better. People are free to be dumb.

As for homophobia and "hatespeech" in the gaming community...

Reddit is gonna reddit. The gaming community has immature people and immature people are going to do immature things. Deal with it. Acknowledging that you can't control other people is part of being a mature adult. You can lash out at them or pity them. Trying to control them will only embolden them.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:
I can agree with your first part. I have seen in some subcultures religion and the people who practice it are considered free sport to insult, but I don't believe being insulted gives you free reign to insult others.

This isn't a religious issue.

If someone "insults" you.. The impact it makes on you is a reflection of your own maturity. From "your mother wears army boots" to calling you a "whore" or a racial slur. Words don't matter and shouldn't be regulated.

There is real racism out there in the world. People need to be engaged, not repressed.

dereksatkinson wrote:

Get sued? For what? Insulting someone online isn't grounds for a civil suit.

I was referring to the internet utopia

If you start to attack people based on their beliefs, you are not better. People are free to be dumb.

Depends. I gave a speech a few years ago and it was interrupted by a group of protestants who insulted me and my emplyoees / coworkers. We sued them and won. Sometimes, German law is awesome =)

Why is there hatespeech? Personally, its because I really fething loathe certain people, particularly on Space Marine online mode, whivh I have just started into. Who abuse the completely unbalanced and OP Plasma Cannon (it has like 3 miles of splash damage and a full charge is a OHKO, plus 2 normal shots is a kill anyway!).

So therefore I use "hatespeech." As in, "you fething little plasma scrub" followed by numerous swearwords.

In general, speaking about homophobic, even racist comments; it offends people, which is the intention. Call any straight man a certain homophobic slur (beginning with F, but I will not say for MODerator reasons), his immediate and timely reaction is to deny the accusation. Most gamers seem to be male. It offends them, as it is intended to, because the gamer is frustrated and angry with their abusing the unbalanced elements of the game, lag due to a gakky connection, God Mode and other hacks, and generally just irritation in general.

Please note I don't use that slur. I only call people Plasma ing ing s.

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
I just got on reddit (I know. oops) to post for some advice about getting back into 40k (I've just been collecting models for painting mostly as of late instead of playing), and to save you peeps from another "40k n00b halp!" post. So to get to the point, the subreddit was having some flame war with another site and decided to insult them as much as possible until they shut down their page. I thought it was hilarious, until I read the insults, most of which were slurs against LGBT people.

I want to say that I don't care much for "political correctness" as I feel it too often prevents people from expressing themselves. Plus, it still accommodates offensive language, it just changes the vocabulary. My problem is that the default verbal attack people tend to have on the internet, across the table, or over headset is to use gay slurs. The second seems to be about sex/gender (which a lot of people think are the same thing)..

I usually don't , but this type of stuff wounds me. You never get used to it. You never get "tougher" or more accustomed to it. It never just plinks off your armor. At least for me. So what can be done about this type of behavior? I know this isn't something that everyone does, but it certainly is something the loudest people do.

Sorry if this should be in OT, I just want to know how you dudes handle this within the gaming community. I certainly exercise the "just don't play them" rule when I hear people saying this stuff but it's still overheard and seems to be getting worse.

Unfortunately, its a thing we have to deal with. You have it wherever you go and online it is worse than in real life. Of course, some little guy is going to act 10 feet tall and bullit proof while online because they would never dream of doing it in real life.
Regardless, The issue i have is when there is a double standard. Most sites have rules and usually there are rules regarding hate speach. Unfortunately, sites are run by human beings and as humans they are not perfect. It is the same here as it is in most other sites. Some are allowed to do anything they want and woe betide the ones who stand up to them while others become victims. This is even more annoying than the original hate speach itself because it is supporting it based of who the one using it is and the target they have chosen. I feel it is innappropriate behavior anywhere.

Having taught such subjects as sexual harrassment, peer mediation, anger management and cultural diversity, I have researched and found that it goes far beyond the usual and can get very subtle I have also found how different people will hide behind loopholes and so forth in order to cover for themselves in case they are called out on it. Sad really, but a fact of life

Wait wtf gender and sex are the same thing, if you think your something else..... I think you can get free help to fix those problems. I think i am a horse so I am a horse? No I am a born male who wants to be one because I suffer from a mental illness and we are in a do what you like phase in the world so a psycho psytrist will tell me to do it and it is ok, rather then fixing the problem.

Gender ad sex are NOT the same thing.
Gender is Feminine or Masculine and which one you identify with
Sex if your biological assignment to male or female.

OgreChubbs wrote:
Wait wtf gender and sex are the same thing, if you think your something else..... I think you can get free help to fix those problems. I think i am a horse so I am a horse? No I am a born male who wants to be one because I suffer from a mental illness and we are in a do what you like phase in the world so a psycho psytrist will tell me to do it and it is ok, rather then fixing the problem.

I too am a fan of the 1940's. Such a carefree and happy time!

OgreChubbs wrote:Wait wtf gender and sex are the same thing, if you think your something else..... I think you can get free help to fix those problems. I think i am a horse so I am a horse? No I am a born male who wants to be one because I suffer from a mental illness and we are in a do what you like phase in the world so a psycho psytrist will tell me to do it and it is ok, rather then fixing the problem.

Ignorance is bliss as they say.
Yes, if you claim you are a horse you are a horse. There are people out there who feel they are more like an animal in a spiritual sense than a human. You feel your are a human boy as you were born, other's feel they are a female blue whale in a man's body.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Gender ad sex are NOT the same thing.
Gender is Feminine or Masculine and which one you identify with
Sex if your biological assignment to male or female.

actually, gender goes far beyond that. According to a friend of mine, whoch is my only source, there are about 32 recognised genders. Such as male, female, male-in-a-woman's-body, woman-in-a-man's-body, non-binary (mix of both), agendered (niether, just human), gay man, gay woman, straight transgendered (man becomes woman who likes men), gay transgendered (man becomes woman who likes woman)

plus a load of others. Confuses me personally with the number but there you go.

Edit; He is big into gender concept and will debate til the cows come home over gender. He is gay himself but hangs out with numerous transgendered people, is a huge supporter of trans* rights and feminism (real feminism, not feminazi).

gender the state of being male, female, or neuter "neither"
sex being male or female

According to the dictionary, so you can make up things all you want but at the end of the day a mental disorder is a mental disorder. They have to be treated not called a new way of life. Soon people with bipolar will be called express-me-much and to say there is something wrong with them will be a hate crime. They need to find a common link for the mental disorder and find a way to treat it not make a new sub-sub-category to put them in, then to help them self mutilate while robbing them blind.

At the end of the day if I walked into a mental clinic and said I feel like a horse I am a horse inside my own body and identify as one, they would help treat a mental disorder. If a doctor approached you and said they plan on trying to help your love one become a horse both mentally and physically you would sue... you know you would.

OgreChubbs wrote:
gender the state of being male, female, or neuter "neither"
sex being male or female

According to the dictionary, so you can make up things all you want but at the end of the day a mental disorder is a mental disorder. They have to be treated not called a new way of life. Soon people with bipolar will be called express-me-much and to say there is something wrong with them will be a hate crime. They need to find a common link for the mental disorder and find a way to treat it not make a new sub-sub-category to put them in, then to help them self mutilate while robbing them blind.

At the end of the day if I walked into a mental clinic and said I feel like a horse I am a horse inside my own body and identify as one, they would help treat a mental disorder. If a doctor approached you and said they plan on trying to help your love one become a horse both mentally and physically you would sue... you know you would.

So what you're saying is that anything that deviates from your idea of normality is a mental disorder that requires treatment?

How very droll.

No not my "norm" that makes it a mental illness. It is a mental illness because you have a identification issue with your born gender which causes you mental harm. The fact that it the new things to swing the way you like should not stop doctors from helping treat a mental disorder. At the age of 3-5 "I believe I will have to find my text" there is a stage called gender identification. They treat all other disorders that happen such as trust and mistrust and all the others. But this one is taboo to touch because people find it offensive.

I am not trying to hurt anyone here, I think they need help anyone who doesn't feel right for any reason should be treated like a actual patient not passed off saying it is gender identification issue "ie mental disorder" that we arn't suppose to treat have a good day.

I think it a crime to turn down those that need help because the sick rarely know how much help they need.

OgreChubbs wrote:
...so you can make up things all you want but at the end of the day a mental disorder is a mental disorder.

Why do you assume that it is a mental disorder rather than a physical one?

 insaniak wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
...so you can make up things all you want but at the end of the day a mental disorder is a mental disorder.

Why do you assume that it is a mental disorder rather than a physical one?

Because all mental disorder are physical, your mind triggers a physical and emotional response to a imbalance of chemicals or a improperly firing trigger. Such as a fear there is no actually mental problem it a mentally stimulated physical response to a issue your brain sees as scary.

Face it the only reason they stopped treating it, is because a group of people found it offensive and other people who did not understand the gender identification age jumped on their backs. Now it is easyer to say it is ok then fix it and get sued by a certain group.

OgreChubbs wrote:
Because all mental disorder are physical, your mind triggers a physical and emotional response to a imbalance of chemicals or a improperly firing trigger. Such as a fear there is no actually mental problem it a mentally stimulated physical response to a issue your brain sees as scary.

Missing the point.

You're seeing someone wanting to change their outward gender as a sign that their body is correct but that there is something wrong with their brain chemistry. They're seeing it as their brain being correct, but something wrong with their body. And the actual science appears to agree with them.

Face it the only reason they stopped treating it, is because a group of people found it offensive and other people who did not understand the gender identification age jumped on their backs. Now it is easyer to say it is ok then fix it and get sued by a certain group.

Er no... they changed the way they treat this issue because science discovered that it wasn't actually anything to do with brain chemistry at all. This isn't something that can just be 'fixed' with medication and a stern talking to.

OgreChubbs wrote:
No not my "norm" that makes it a mental illness. It is a mental illness because you have a identification issue with your born gender which causes you mental harm. The fact that it the new things to swing the way you like should not stop doctors from helping treat a mental disorder. At the age of 3-5 "I believe I will have to find my text" there is a stage called gender identification. They treat all other disorders that happen such as trust and mistrust and all the others. But this one is taboo to touch because people find it offensive.

Except that their gender identification is NOT causing them harm, what is causing them harm is the reactions of those around them to it. I know some people who were born female and identify more as male who are far more mentally stable than other people, and only suffer because of the harassment they receive from others.

I think it a crime to turn down those that need help because the sick rarely know how much help they need.

That is an incredibly slippy slope. At what point does "helping those who cannot help themselves" become deciding people's fates for them because we think we know better? The vast majority of these people are mentally well individuals; what proof have you got to claim that they are simply ignorant of the supposed fact they need help?

 Avatar 720 wrote:


Except that their gender identification is NOT causing them harm, what is causing them harm is the reactions of those around them to it.?

It goes both ways. First of all, and this should be clear, noone has any right to judge someone based on what gender he / she thinks that he / she has. That's everyone's freedom. I could consider myself to be the reborn Jesus and you would have zero right to judge me on it. Anyone should be able to claim being a woman without having to fear repercussions.

On the other hand, it goes both ways. No belief is any better than any other. If you consider yourself being a woman despite being born a man, you are fully free to consider you being a woman / transgender etc. You can NOT however automatically expect that everyone will adress you with "she" instead of "he". If you kindly ask others to do so and they refuse, then you have to deal with it. It's THEIR belief and you have absolutely no right to demand them to act against their belief and follow yours.

"But...but...discrimination! DISCRIMINIATIOOOOOOOON!"

Bull. Saying that anyone referring to man who thinks he's a woman as "he" is discriminating is discrimination as you consider your convictions superior to the other. Which is wrong and discriminating.

You, in such a position, are asking others for a favor. Not the other way around. Any step towards your attitude is done out of respect and should NEVER EVER be taken as granted. It should be appreciated.

I feel I should clarify, when I say the harm comes from people's reactions I don't simply mean that they feel upset because someone doesn't view them as they view themselves, I'm talking about the people who verbally abuse them for it, who go out of their way to mock and cause misery. There is a huge difference between what I actually meant and what you thought I meant.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
I feel I should clarify, when I say the harm comes from people's reactions I don't simply mean that they feel upset because someone doesn't view them as they view themselves, I'm talking about the people who verbally abuse them for it, who go out of their way to mock and cause misery. There is a huge difference between what I actually meant and what you thought I meant.

Gotcha! And I agree with you - hope that got across at the very least

OgreChubbs wrote:
No not my "norm" that makes it a mental illness. It is a mental illness because you have a identification issue with your born gender which causes you mental harm. The fact that it the new things to swing the way you like should not stop doctors from helping treat a mental disorder. At the age of 3-5 "I believe I will have to find my text" there is a stage called gender identification. They treat all other disorders that happen such as trust and mistrust and all the others. But this one is taboo to touch because people find it offensive.

I am not trying to hurt anyone here, I think they need help anyone who doesn't feel right for any reason should be treated like a actual patient not passed off saying it is gender identification issue "ie mental disorder" that we arn't suppose to treat have a good day.

I think it a crime to turn down those that need help because the sick rarely know how much help they need.

It never caused me harm, well people didn't like it and threatened to harm me, but there's a thousand reasons why people want to harm another, that being one of them.
I don't feel sick, and genderfluid isn't just some brain nonsense I can have fixed with a pill and some one on one time with a shrink.
I am fine with who I am, and if I did go "get fixed" a part of what makes me, me would be lost.
Things like that shape you to who you become, there is a big difference in having an actual mental illness, like aspergers, and being transgender or genderfluid or whatever the case may be.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
No not my "norm" that makes it a mental illness. It is a mental illness because you have a identification issue with your born gender which causes you mental harm. The fact that it the new things to swing the way you like should not stop doctors from helping treat a mental disorder. At the age of 3-5 "I believe I will have to find my text" there is a stage called gender identification. They treat all other disorders that happen such as trust and mistrust and all the others. But this one is taboo to touch because people find it offensive.

I am not trying to hurt anyone here, I think they need help anyone who doesn't feel right for any reason should be treated like a actual patient not passed off saying it is gender identification issue "ie mental disorder" that we arn't suppose to treat have a good day.

I think it a crime to turn down those that need help because the sick rarely know how much help they need.

It never caused me harm, well people didn't like it and threatened to harm me, but there's a thousand reasons why people want to harm another, that being one of them.
I don't feel sick, and genderfluid isn't just some brain nonsense I can have fixed with a pill and some one on one time with a shrink.
I am fine with who I am, and if I did go "get fixed" a part of what makes me, me would be lost.
Things like that shape you to who you become, there is a big difference in having an actual mental illness, like aspergers, and being transgender or genderfluid or whatever the case may be.

Well I am happy for ya, glad you like who you are and I wish ya all the best. But at the end of the day a mental illness that harms someone needs to be addressed and helped. I think doctors are way to" ya ,go with it you have gender issues sex change or other insert thing here. But quite frankly I have a mental illness I have social anxiety, most if not all of us have A mental illness or two. If I sound like I am saying there is something wrong with you sorry but there is just like there is with me.

What I am trying to explain is "kinda got off topic" If there is something that causes you harm in the form of a mental illness and you see a doctor and they tell you to do something dramatic rather then try and treat your issues I think thats a problem.

But if your happy with who you are good for ya, life sucks enough without people making fun of others my orginal point was people get treated bad for a thousand reasons like how they make fun of my god "a very personal and sencitive issue" like they make fun of gays or what ever genders. Not sure how we got on the topic of if it is or isn't a real thing.

Long story short if your not hurting anyone and your happy with who you are good for ya. The point I wanted to make was like I said above I think docotrs are failing to many people with real issues that bother/harm them "not other people but them" and they need to be helped not slumped into a subcatagory.

But I do believe it is a mental illness that happens during the gender association age 3-5. But remember just because I said it a mental illness doesn't mean I am saying what your going through is made up I just see it as something happened during that time which altered the way the brain thinks of a certain scenario like me with my fear of crowds and such.

Oh btw after browsing threw some of my texts I found this

There has never been a case where a male brain was in a female but there has on occasion been proof of female brain in a male
The only way to truely tell the difference other then size "which is determined by the skull not the smarts" is that a male brain has y cromazones"butchered that word" in it where a female brain does not. They do not know what if anything it changes in the brain but there is different hormones in the female and male brains. Such as the male brain has a direct line"nerve" to the penis where the woman does to a different area of her vagina.

OgreChubbs wrote:
But I do believe it is a mental illness that happens during the gender association age 3-5. .

Whereas science thinks it's due to a disassociation between brain development and body development that happens in the womb.

Not a mental illness.

 insaniak wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
But I do believe it is a mental illness that happens during the gender association age 3-5. .

Whereas science thinks it's due to a disassociation between brain development and body development that happens in the womb.

Not a mental illness.

Give me a couple hours I get the text book it is a nursing book written by a man who studies age and development. So i should of worded it has "science has multiple exapmles that it is caused during development"

OgreChubbs wrote:
The only way to truely tell the difference other then size "which is determined by the skull not the smarts" is that a male brain has y cromazones"butchered that word" in it where a female brain does not.

There are some structural differences between male and female brains as well.

OgreChubbs wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
But I do believe it is a mental illness that happens during the gender association age 3-5. .

Whereas science thinks it's due to a disassociation between brain development and body development that happens in the womb.

Not a mental illness.

Give me a couple hours I get the text book it is a nursing book written by a man who studies age and development. So i should of worded it has "science has multiple exapmles that it is caused during development"

I'd love to see some good, current research showing that, i.e. not a textbook since those things are hardly reliable. You get professors plugging their own work all the time in university, regardless of whether it was well researched or not. Instead of wasting time finding a textbook, show me some good peer reviewed studies that fly in the face of the accepted scientific standing that Insaniak referred to.

It was in the mosby 6th edition for sure. It was eriksons law it intwins with maslows law.

Then I think you need to reread Erikson's theory, as it doesn't mean what you think it does. It most certainly doesn't claim that this is a mental illness rather than an unlucky mismatch between mind and body.

And Maslow's theory, assuming you mean the heirarchy of needs, which he is most famous for, and since I have to make assumptions since you've provided no actual references, doesn't support that either. Even though he developed it in 1954. Because of this, in fact, and studies that have been completed since, it's not that relevant anymore.

0/2

 motyak wrote:
Then I think you need to reread Erikson's theory, as it doesn't mean what you think it does. It most certainly doesn't claim that this is a mental illness rather than an unlucky mismatch between mind and body.

And Maslow's theory, assuming you mean the heirarchy of needs, which he is most famous for, and since I have to make assumptions since you've provided no actual references, doesn't support that either. Even though he developed it in 1954. Because of this, in fact, and studies that have been completed since, it's not that relevant anymore.

0/2

Well I have to admit since YOUR saying it, it must be true since you have a degree in.... what now? Oh ya what scientific backing do you have again....? Put up some information because saying uhuh is just annoying to talk to reminds me off my 4 year old.

My background isn't relevant to this. You have made statements, claimed they have scientific backing, then made references to theories as laws and not expanded upon them in any substantive way. As the person who is arguing against the grain of accepted scientific understanding, you need to provide information proving us wrong. Not just 'here's a law (that isn't a law) with a name in front of it'.

OgreChubbs wrote:

 motyak wrote:
Then I think you need to reread Erikson's theory, as it doesn't mean what you think it does. It most certainly doesn't claim that this is a mental illness rather than an unlucky mismatch between mind and body.

And Maslow's theory, assuming you mean the heirarchy of needs, which he is most famous for, and since I have to make assumptions since you've provided no actual references, doesn't support that either. Even though he developed it in 1954. Because of this, in fact, and studies that have been completed since, it's not that relevant anymore.

0/2

Well I have to admit since YOUR saying it, it must be true since you have a degree in.... what now? Oh ya what scientific backing do you have again....? Put up some information because saying uhuh is just annoying to talk to reminds me off my 4 year old.

Yup, attack the arguer, not the argument.
Great strategy.
Dude, you are acting like me right now, so stop it

Honestly, how is this "discussion" still going? If someone had claimed "being gay is a mental illness" or "being black is a mental illness" they'd be banned and the thread would be locked. So why is it ok to post things that are equally offensive about transgendered people?

 Sigvatr wrote:
You can NOT however automatically expect that everyone will adress you with "she" instead of "he". If you kindly ask others to do so and they refuse, then you have to deal with it. It's THEIR belief and you have absolutely no right to demand them to act against their belief and follow yours.

Sure you do, just like if you're a black person you have a right to demand that people don't address you as "hey {racial insult}". Legally you have a right to say offensive things, but the rest of us have every right to tell you to stop and shun you if you don't.

You, in such a position, are asking others for a favor.

Yeah, that huge favor of "don't be an offensive to me". I mean, really, what exactly is the reason for not being polite and using the pronouns a person tells you they identify with? Is it really that important to make your ideological point that you have to be incredibly rude and insulting to random people?

Kind of a slippery slope argument there. I mean, can you argue anything based on their own merit instead of trying to link it to something else?

Gaming community? gak dude, just read any YouTube comments. The Internet is full of anonymous people and trolls who'll say whatever they can to get a reaction.

 insaniak wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
...so you can make up things all you want but at the end of the day a mental disorder is a mental disorder.

Why do you assume that it is a mental disorder rather than a physical one?

Probably because people who think they are "multiple systems" with "headmates", one of which is a God-damned fox, they're probably desperately seeking attention or they genuinely have a mental condition of some sort.

Granted, that's not at all the same as transgendered people, but whathisface's comment about claiming to be a horse got me started.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Gaming community? gak dude, just read any YouTube comments. The Internet is full of anonymous people and trolls who'll say whatever they can to get a reaction.

There is a theory for that.

Yes, thank you, I had forgotten to post that.

As my boss used to sum up his business wide statements about workplace diversity issues.



I don't think I have the most traditional of bosses.

 insaniak wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
The only way to truely tell the difference other then size "which is determined by the skull not the smarts" is that a male brain has y cromazones"butchered that word" in it where a female brain does not.

There are some structural differences between male and female brains as well.

I just want to know where the shoe thing comes from. My wife has more shoes than Zambia, and the daughter has five different pair of boots. Really? Freaking really?

mental illness is something that, in some way or another, can be treated, you can't treat a transgender, that's basically trying to turn a gay person straight.

A part of me isn't surprised that this sort of argument came here...why you felt it was a good idea to tell someone who has such gender stuff they're just mentally ill I will never know.
I mean as you said something like social anxiety is an illness and there are treatments for it, medications and the like...

Am I missing something or is it just early and I am just kind of pissed off at this?

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
mental illness is something that, in some way or another, can be treated, you can't treat a transgender, that's basically trying to turn a gay person straight.

A part of me isn't surprised that this sort of argument came here...why you felt it was a good idea to tell someone who has such gender stuff they're just mentally ill I will never know.
I mean as you said something like social anxiety is an illness and there are treatments for it, medications and the like...

Am I missing something or is it just early and I am just kind of pissed off at this?

Who the hell are you talking to?

Rainbow Dash wrote:mental illness is something that, in some way or another, can be treated, you can't treat a transgender, that's basically trying to turn a gay person straight.

A part of me isn't surprised that this sort of argument came here...why you felt it was a good idea to tell someone who has such gender stuff they're just mentally ill I will never know.
I mean as you said something like social anxiety is an illness and there are treatments for it, medications and the like...

Am I missing something or is it just early and I am just kind of pissed off at this?

Nope, hit the nail on the head.

Frazzled wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
mental illness is something that, in some way or another, can be treated, you can't treat a transgender, that's basically trying to turn a gay person straight.

A part of me isn't surprised that this sort of argument came here...why you felt it was a good idea to tell someone who has such gender stuff they're just mentally ill I will never know.
I mean as you said something like social anxiety is an illness and there are treatments for it, medications and the like...

Am I missing something or is it just early and I am just kind of pissed off at this?

Who the hell are you talking to?

The guy who has been trying to say transgenderism is a mental illness and transgendered people need to see their GP and shrink for the last 3 pages.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
mental illness is something that, in some way or another, can be treated, you can't treat a transgender, that's basically trying to turn a gay person straight.

A part of me isn't surprised that this sort of argument came here...why you felt it was a good idea to tell someone who has such gender stuff they're just mentally ill I will never know.
I mean as you said something like social anxiety is an illness and there are treatments for it, medications and the like...

Am I missing something or is it just early and I am just kind of pissed off at this?

Who the hell are you talking to?

Guy on the last page, just go back one and you'll see...

Ok you should quote them then, unless you're prepared to discuss the essential mystery of women and shoes.

Ohmygod SHOES!

I think the Bill & Ted quote pretty much rules this thread.

 Frazzled wrote:
Ok you should quote them then, unless you're prepared to discuss the essential mystery of women and shoes.

I thought we were still on the same page...

And yeah I never understood women's fascination with shoes, I have a lot of hats and scarves but not shoes.
I have a very male mind when it comes to them

Women and shoes isn't a mystery, guys.

Men regard shoes as functional. Boots for physical work, sneakers for recreation, dress shoes for office work. You can get away with one pair of each and be a complete person.

Women's shoes are accessories as well as functional. They have to match whatever particular outfit a woman is wearing. They have to color-coordinate so as not to clash and they have to have an overall style that matches the outfit as well. Basically, the color/style of a woman's shoe is as important to her overall attire as the color/style of shirt would be to a man. In our society, women have to look good at all times, so the shoes always have to compliment the outfit, hence all the different pairs they need for all the different outfits (and combinations of outfits) they own.

understand, but the daughter has multiple pair of boots that look almost exactly the same. WhY? LORD WHY?

(Frazzled wouldn't care except guess who pays for them...)

 Frazzled wrote:
understand, but the daughter has multiple pair of boots that look almost exactly the same. WhY? LORD WHY?

(Frazzled wouldn't care except guess who pays for them...)

Get weiner dogs, teach them to chew shoes. Problem solved problem staying solved, weiner dogs lead the way.

 Frazzled wrote:
understand, but the daughter has multiple pair of boots that look almost exactly the same. WhY? LORD WHY?

Okay, that one.... that one I haven't got an answer for.

 Frazzled wrote:
understand, but the daughter has multiple pair of boots that look almost exactly the same. WhY? LORD WHY?

(Frazzled wouldn't care except guess who pays for them...)

I would use some witty retort about steam accounts filled with hundreds of games you never actually play, but in all honesty, I don't know.

Shoes just... are.

Shoegito ergo sum.

squidhills wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
understand, but the daughter has multiple pair of boots that look almost exactly the same. WhY? LORD WHY?

Okay, that one.... that one I haven't got an answer for.

Because, well, duh, they're all totally NOT the same! These ones have like, the fur, like, 3 inches down, and these ones have them 2 inches down, and these one's are totally biege and these are more chestnut brown! Like, duh, anyone would know that!





Don't get me wrong, I like nice shoes myself. I have dress/school shoes for school and formal events. I also have Catapillars for clubs and the like. I have new Firetrap boots for day to day stuff. I have waterproof trainers which are easy to put on for a quick run to the shop or exercise. All of them are stylish and I enjoy having nice shoes but at the same time, they are functional.

Well actually they can make anyone love or hate anything givin enough stimulates. If everytime you see a sucker I zap you with a tazer and evertime you see a carrot I give you a release of pleasure. After so many week months years your brain auto programs to avoid pain and love things that make you happy. So to say you can't fix or change anything I think is wrong.

OgreChubbs wrote:
Well actually they can make anyone love or hate anything givin enough stimulates. If everytime you see a sucker I zap you with a tazer and evertime you see a carrot I give you a release of pleasure. After so many week months years your brain auto programs to avoid pain and love things that make you happy. So to say you can't fix or change anything I think is wrong.

Yeah, but generally people don't get tazed for feeling like the opposite sex. Or get cookies for feeling like their born sex.

What transgenderism is;

I am born a man. I instinctively feel more like a woman. I am a woman trapped in a man's body. I should have been a woman. I BELIEVE I am a woman.

That's not a mental illness. Mental illness can be cured. You can't cure beliefs.

OgreChubbs wrote:
Well actually they can make anyone love or hate anything givin enough stimulates. If everytime you see a sucker I zap you with a tazer and evertime you see a carrot I give you a release of pleasure. After so many week months years your brain auto programs to avoid pain and love things that make you happy. So to say you can't fix or change anything I think is wrong.

Didn't the "reconversion" movement use this idea. The results have been less than satisfactory. And then you have to immeidtaley ask the question: why bother?
You want to be gay, be gay! its just an entire other group of people that scream that there's a bear with mange and start throwing rocks and stuff at me when I get too close. Meh, at least the rocks will be fabulously color coordinated when they throw them at me.

That and it's pretty fething disgusting.

 Deadshot wrote:

Mental illness can be cured. You can't cure beliefs.

That's never been a quality of metal illness. See borderline personality disorder or psychopathy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

Didn't the "reconversion" movement use this idea. The results have been less than satisfactory.

Yeah, I think Lou Reed didn't care much for it.

 daedalus wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Mental illness can be cured. You can't cure beliefs.

That's never been a quality of metal illness. See borderline personality disorder or psychopathy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

Didn't the "reconversion" movement use this idea. The results have been less than satisfactory.

Yeah, I think Lou Reed didn't care much for it.

That's a good point. I was thinking things like schizophrenia and the the like.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
That and it's pretty fething disgusting.

What exactly is the "that" in this sentence referring to?

 Peregrine wrote:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
That and it's pretty fething disgusting.

What exactly is the "that" in this sentence referring to?

Presumably, gay "repair therapy".

Yup*.

*I might be biased though

So a mental illness is only something that can be cured? So leukemia is not a illness? just a state of blood? It is a mental illness the brain is ment to insure you produce children and survive if you are not doing them then your ill lol

OgreChubbs wrote:
So a mental illness is only something that can be cured? So leukemia is not a illness? just a state of blood? It is a mental illness the brain is ment to insure you produce children and survive if you are not doing them then your ill lol

Oh look the 1950s called again!

 MrDwhitey wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
So a mental illness is only something that can be cured? So leukemia is not a illness? just a state of blood? It is a mental illness the brain is ment to insure you produce children and survive if you are not doing them then your ill lol

Oh look the 1950s called again!

Why is it when you have no answer you say a short snark not just you just the dumb. If you have nothing good to add, add nothing I provided scientific statements theorys and contradicted that a mental illness is only a illness if it can be cured. Then I get back nuh uh nuh uh prove it lalalalala. I feel like I am talking to children so I am walking away from this. Once someone makes a statement with a theory that has been proven or researcher-ed for atleast 5+ years I will see it worth my time until then I will end it like you guys

NUH UH I AM RIGHT YOUR WRONG LALALALALALA

Oh look a 1950s playground called!

OgreChubbs wrote:
So a mental illness is only something that can be cured? So leukemia is not a illness? just a state of blood? It is a mental illness the brain is ment to insure you produce children and survive if you are not doing them then your ill lol

1. Please cite scientific proof that your brain means to insure you prpoduce children?
2. Why do you (falsely) think gay people don't want to have children?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
Oh look a 1950s playground called!

hey don't diss the 50s. Soul music baby. Soul music.

Hey Frazzled, you should know that all times have bad and good.

It'd just be nice if this guy brought some good though.

To be perfectly honest, it's pointless to even try debate with a hateful creature like this, just ignore/mock/ridicule until they die out.

 Frazzled wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
So a mental illness is only something that can be cured? So leukemia is not a illness? just a state of blood? It is a mental illness the brain is ment to insure you produce children and survive if you are not doing them then your ill lol

1. Please cite scientific proof that your brain means to insure you prpoduce children?
2. Why do you (falsely) think gay people don't want to have children?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
Oh look a 1950s playground called!

hey don't diss the 50s. Soul music baby. Soul music.

Because it takes a man and a woman to make a kid, so having sex with one of your own sex can't produce a child. You may want a child but no matter how much you masturbate your not going to get one. It requires a egg and a sperm, which the two different sexes are required to produce. IE gay no kids.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
Hey Frazzled, you should know that all times have bad and good.

It'd just be nice if this guy brought some good though.

To be perfectly honest, it's pointless to even try debate with a hateful creature like this, just ignore/mock/ridicule until they die out.

Debate the issue and not the person, its for the best. '

Unless they like cats in which case I'd advidse: a pond; good chains; and 50 lb of cement.

The problem I have is there is no point debating the issue with someone like that.

What will you achieve? Nothing. They will continue being a hateful bigot, you will have wasted some time and possibly got annoyed.

Sort of like debating line versus cavalry with Frazzled... *

*I kid.

OgreChubbs wrote:
Because it takes a man and a woman to make a kid, so having sex with one of your own sex can't produce a child. You may want a child but no matter how much you masturbate your not going to get one. It requires a egg and a sperm, which the two different sexes are required to produce. IE gay no kids.

You've forgotten about IVF, which is also used by tens of thousands of heterosexual couples in the US every year.
You've also forgotten about adoption.

So for all the hetero men out there who don't want kids - they're abnormal? Have you even been around kids? I'm surprised the species survives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
The problem I have is there is no point debating the issue with someone like that.

What will you achieve? Nothing. They will continue being a hateful bigot, you will have wasted some time and possibly got annoyed.

Sort of like debating line versus cavalry with Frazzled... *

*I kid.

Hussars for the win! Nothing says "personal space no touchy!" line a line of Polish winged hussars charging at you!

 MrDwhitey wrote:
The problem I have is there is no point debating the issue with someone like that.

What will you achieve? Nothing. They will continue being a hateful bigot, you will have wasted some time and possibly got annoyed.

Sort of like debating line versus cavalry with Frazzled... *

*I kid.

See what your saying here this is what causes people to hate, I find myself getting more and more annoyed and hateful towards your cause because I dislike you lol. So when you ask why is there hate /\ I have no problem with gays but people like you I do and you leech to this cause and bringn the hate. ie. I hate the person not the cause.

I'm not the one throwing absolute bs around as a fact, so there's that.

You've already been shown why it's bs and gone "LALALALA", so what's the point in going further? There is none.

OgreChubbs wrote:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
The problem I have is there is no point debating the issue with someone like that.

What will you achieve? Nothing. They will continue being a hateful bigot, you will have wasted some time and possibly got annoyed.

Sort of like debating line versus cavalry with Frazzled... *

*I kid.

See what your saying here this is what causes people to hate, I find myself getting more and more annoyed and hateful towards your cause because I dislike you lol. So when you ask why is there hate /\ I have no problem with gays but people like you I do and you leech to this cause and bringn the hate. ie. I hate the person not the cause.

You hate gay people? Why?
Wussy. A real man hates everyone who dares encroach upon his yard.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
I'm not the one throwing absolute bs around as a fact, so there's that.

You've already been shown why it's bs and gone "LALALALA", so what's the point in going further? There is none.

So the theory's and facts provided by the doctors who study it are bs facts? and your friend saying random stuff is true facts? I ask for theory's and proven facts not what your friend or teacher said. If it is taught on a higher grade level and is a theory of over 5 years of facts then I will listen. Which help prove it not bs facts btw.

As for the second part I find the need to defend myself from the children who want to be right and say random things rather then show facts. Like you then shoot insults at people like me who show facts to back my opinion then you say something stupid like he hates gays trying to win them to your cause. Where if anyone read pass 3 lines would understand you have no facts just poor built opnions with little backing information.

Again I do not hate gays I hate him he is an idiot who screams what he thinks and has nothing to back it up. Which just brings the rest of us down to his level of gradschool

What exactly are you trying to say then?

Be clear.

Also I'll reply after Halloween. its time to party!

OgreChubbs wrote:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
I'm not the one throwing absolute bs around as a fact, so there's that.

You've already been shown why it's bs and gone "LALALALA", so what's the point in going further? There is none.

So the theory's and facts provided by the doctors who study it are bs facts? and your friend saying random stuff is true facts? I ask for theory's and proven facts not what your friend or teacher said. If it is taught on a higher grade level and is a theory of over 5 years of facts then I will listen. Which help prove it not bs facts btw.

As for the second part I find the need to defend myself from the children who want to be right and say random things rather then show facts. Like you then shoot insults at people like me who show facts to back my opinion then you say something stupid like he hates gays trying to win them to your cause. Where if anyone read pass 3 lines would understand you have no facts just poor built opnions with little backing information.

Again I do not hate gays I hate him he is an idiot who screams what he thinks and has nothing to back it up. Which just brings the rest of us down to his level of gradschool

This entire post is amazing and I want to use it as my signature.

 Frazzled wrote:
What exactly are you trying to say then?

Be clear.

Also I'll reply after Halloween. its time to party!

You never read all of i said I take it

I am trying to say it is a mental illness which "if it causing harm to the person" should be treated and not lumped into a sub category and told to do something life changing before seeing if there is a deeper root.
p.s. this part is about sex change and such not gay

I also said altho it a mental illness does not mean it is wrong just a false firing que in the brain" Like mine with fear of crowds social anxiety" which is a mental illness.

The first part was why is there hate towards the gay community I started by saying because people like him then we got off topic and started on mental illness.... not sure how.

My statement before he jumped on was as long as no one gets hurt and your not "feeling hurt" who cares and enjoy your life. Life is hard and kinda sucks alot of the time with out people finding a reason to bring more problems.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

OgreChubbs wrote:
Because it takes a man and a woman to make a kid, so having sex with one of your own sex can't produce a child. You may want a child but no matter how much you masturbate your not going to get one. It requires a egg and a sperm, which the two different sexes are required to produce. IE gay no kids.

Btw, haven't the Japanese found a way for lesbian couples to get kids without a man being involved now?

I think I read something about it in a science magazine.

 Ashiraya wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
Because it takes a man and a woman to make a kid, so having sex with one of your own sex can't produce a child. You may want a child but no matter how much you masturbate your not going to get one. It requires a egg and a sperm, which the two different sexes are required to produce. IE gay no kids.

Btw, haven't the Japanese found a way for lesbian couples to get kids without a man being involved now?

I think I read something about it in a science magazine.

That would actually pretty cool to read

Rule #1 Everyone.

It isn't optional.

OgreChubbs wrote:
? It is a mental illness the brain is ment to insure you produce children and survive if you are not doing them then your ill lol

So people having sex for pleasure, rather than for the specific purpose of creating a child, are mentally ill as well, now?

OgreChubbs wrote:

 MrDwhitey wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
So a mental illness is only something that can be cured? So leukemia is not a illness? just a state of blood? It is a mental illness the brain is ment to insure you produce children and survive if you are not doing them then your ill lol

Oh look the 1950s called again!

Why is it when you have no answer you say a short snark not just you just the dumb. If you have nothing good to add, add nothing I provided scientific statements theorys and contradicted that a mental illness is only a illness if it can be cured. Then I get back nuh uh nuh uh prove it lalalalala. I feel like I am talking to children so I am walking away from this. Once someone makes a statement with a theory that has been proven or researcher-ed for atleast 5+ years I will see it worth my time until then I will end it like you guys

NUH UH I AM RIGHT YOUR WRONG LALALALALALA

Your "scientific statements" are not up to date.

There is a lot of scientific evidence from humans and other social animals that non-reproducing 'uncles' can be a great help in the survival of children. The 'selfish gene' theory explains why this makes evolutionary sense.

Thus, your view is arguably based merely on social attitudes, rooted in the Victorian dislike of homosexuality that peaked in civilised countries in the 1950s before a wave of humanitarian reform started to sweep the progressive nations.

OgreChubbs wrote:
I am trying to say it is a mental illness which "if it causing harm to the person" should be treated and not lumped into a sub category and told to do something life changing before seeing if there is a deeper root.
p.s. this part is about sex change and such not gay

And the people who are actually experts in treating gender identity issues disagree with you. There really isn't any controversy over the fact that sometimes you get a brain/body mismatch, and that the best solution to the problem is to fix the body to align with how the brain works. Your supposed "deeper root" that can be fixed has no evidence for it at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
Rule #1 Everyone.

It isn't optional.

[MOD EDIT - YES, RULE #1 - Alpharius]

OgreChubbs wrote:

So the theory's and facts provided by the doctors who study it are bs facts? and your friend saying random stuff is true facts? I ask for theory's and proven facts not what your friend or teacher said. If it is taught on a higher grade level and is a theory of over 5 years of facts then I will listen. Which help prove it not bs facts btw.

You yourself haven't provided a single relevant, up to date theory but you act like you have, then rubbish everyone's argument for not providing some to counter your none? You sound like an anti-vaccination supporter quoting the Lancet article despite everything we actually know.

OgreChubbs wrote:

 MrDwhitey wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
So a mental illness is only something that can be cured? So leukemia is not a illness? just a state of blood? It is a mental illness the brain is ment to insure you produce children and survive if you are not doing them then your ill lol

Oh look the 1950s called again!

Why is it when you have no answer you say a short snark not just you just the dumb. If you have nothing good to add, add nothing I provided scientific statements theorys and contradicted that a mental illness is only a illness if it can be cured. Then I get back nuh uh nuh uh prove it lalalalala. I feel like I am talking to children so I am walking away from this. Once someone makes a statement with a theory that has been proven or researcher-ed for atleast 5+ years I will see it worth my time until then I will end it like you guys

NUH UH I AM RIGHT YOUR WRONG LALALALALALA

You'll be back.

Like other people have said, you haven't really provided any "scientific statements" that are any different than this:

“Uh, sir, phrenology was dismissed as quackery a hundred-sixty years ago.” – Mr. Smithers
“Of course you’d say that, you have the brainpan of stage coach tilter.” – C.M. Burns

I've always found it interesting that so many people seem to expect online discussion to be approached like some sort of formal presentation.

If this discussion was taking place in person, nobody would be expected to provide written proof of their assertions. If I say 'there are scientific studies that show 'x'' then you have the option of going and looking for those studies if you are interested in establishing whether or not your current viewpoint is valid or not.

I don't expect anyone to take my word for what I say... but I'm not interested in doing your homework for you. It takes bare moments on Google to turn up any number of links to articles on gender identity and development based on recent science.




The other thing I find interesting is that 20 years ago, I was saying the same sort of ignorant things that OgreChubb is saying in this thread. As I got older and realised that I didn't actually know everything after all, I started looking at a lot of my long-held preconceptions and taking the time to establish whether they were grounded in actual fact or just the result of me making my mind up at some point based on an incomplete understanding.

This is a practice that I heartily recommend to everyone. All of that stuff that you have 'known' as a fact since you were a teenager? Pull it out occasionally and challenge it. You might be surprised by just how much of it turns out to be wrong.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Like other people have said, you haven't really provided any "scientific statements" that are any different than this:

“Uh, sir, phrenology was dismissed as quackery a hundred-sixty years ago.” – Mr. Smithers
“Of course you’d say that, you have the brainpan of stage coach tilter.” – C.M. Burns

Hehehe. Well, we have to get the hole drilled quick. How else will the leeches be able to reduce the bad humours from the brain swelling?

 insaniak wrote:
I've always found it interesting that so many people seem to expect online discussion to be approached like some sort of formal presentation.

If this discussion was taking place in person, nobody would be expected to provide written proof of their assertions. If I say 'there are scientific studies that show 'x'' then you have the option of going and looking for those studies if you are interested in establishing whether or not your current viewpoint is valid or not.

I don't expect anyone to take my word for what I say... but I'm not interested in doing your homework for you. It takes bare moments on Google to turn up any number of links to articles on gender identity and development based on recent science.




The other thing I find interesting is that 20 years ago, I was saying the same sort of ignorant things that OgreChubb is saying in this thread. As I got older and realised that I didn't actually know everything after all, I started looking at a lot of my long-held preconceptions and taking the time to establish whether they were grounded in actual fact or just the result of me making my mind up at some point based on an incomplete understanding.

This is a practice that I heartily recommend to everyone. All of that stuff that you have 'known' as a fact since you were a teenager? Pull it out occasionally and challenge it. You might be surprised by just how much of it turns out to be wrong.

Because no one want's to be "that guy" who fact checks everything as you make your claims. Behind a computer you can do so without reproach and have the convenience of the internet readily availible.