Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Sigvatr wrote:


I'm not even going to start on how immensely offensive that is.

Sorry you were offended, doesn't stop it being true.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:


I'm not even going to start on how immensely offensive that is.

Sorry you were offended, doesn't stop it being true.

Personal opinion doesn't necessarily mean the same as truth.

Moved to the Off-Topic forum, since we generally keep these kinds of discussions in this section.

Thanks!!! I wasn't sure!

Sooooo, do you think these redditors would like to do the same campaign against Blue Table Painting, since they're also thieves?

So if I get this right, they were trying to be offensive in order to destroy some thread. That doesn't sound like a good plan. It's the old two wrongs don't make a right thing.

To the wider question of homophobia and such in gaming. I don't know. I kind of feel behind the times on this topic because I expect to see hate, but don't always find it. (I don't really go to places like redit.) It still surprises me though. I keep expecting things to work like how they worked way back.

nomotog wrote:
So if I get this right, they were trying to be offensive in order to destroy some thread. That doesn't sound like a good plan. It's the old two wrongs don't make a right thing.

To the wider question of homophobia and such in gaming. I don't know. I kind of feel behind the times on this topic because I expect to see hate, but don't always find it. (I don't really go to places like redit.) It still surprises me though. I keep expecting things to work like how they worked way back.

Not quite. A bot was automatically scraping (i.e. reposting without attributing the original creator) content off of the reddit page, and doing so without checking what the content actually was. ( This is important ).

Because of the means used to "steal" the content off of reddit, the content contributors banded together to "game the system" so to speak. By putting obviously and horrendously offensive material in their post titles, the end result is that the content-stealing sites appear to endorse those offensive things, while everyone "in on the game" in the subreddit knows to ignore those parts of the post titles.

It's like this: Consider if a news network was recording everything you said, and dubbing that audio over that of their guest speaker (without checking what was actually said), in a way that made it appear the guest speaker was actually saying those things. Now, if you've got lots of great ideas that you talk about, this news network might be inhibiting your ability to "get to market first" with those ideas (bear with me, this is just an example). So you decide to say really vulgar, hurtful things to exploit the fact that their method of stealing is pretty dumb, thereby punishing the network without ever having to lift a finger against them. You effectively hoist them upon their own petard.

 Xca|iber wrote:

nomotog wrote:
So if I get this right, they were trying to be offensive in order to destroy some thread. That doesn't sound like a good plan. It's the old two wrongs don't make a right thing.

To the wider question of homophobia and such in gaming. I don't know. I kind of feel behind the times on this topic because I expect to see hate, but don't always find it. (I don't really go to places like redit.) It still surprises me though. I keep expecting things to work like how they worked way back.

Not quite. A bot was automatically scraping (i.e. reposting without attributing the original creator) content off of the reddit page, and doing so without checking what the content actually was. ( This is important ).

Because of the means used to "steal" the content off of reddit, the content contributors banded together to "game the system" so to speak. By putting obviously and horrendously offensive material in their post titles, the end result is that the content-stealing sites appear to endorse those offensive things, while everyone "in on the game" in the subreddit knows to ignore those parts of the post titles.

It's like this: Consider if a news network was recording everything you said, and dubbing that audio over that of their guest speaker (without checking what was actually said), in a way that made it appear the guest speaker was actually saying those things. Now, if you've got lots of great ideas that you talk about, this news network might be inhibiting your ability to "get to market first" with those ideas (bear with me, this is just an example). So you decide to say really vulgar, hurtful things to exploit the fact that their method of stealing is pretty dumb, thereby punishing the network without ever having to lift a finger against them. You effectively hoist them upon their own petard.

Ya I get that, but couldn't they have solved their problem without being offensive. It just seems kind of wrong to use offensive content as a weapon.

Considering the nigh-supersonic speed with which this method resolved their problem, I would say it was by far the best (and funniest) solution.

I mean, yes, much of what was posted was practically gag-inducing, but it was clear (to me) from the context that none of the people on that subreddit believed that those things were okay to say. (Sure, maybe one or two of them actually believed those things, but based on the past history of that sub, it is patently obvious that everyone involved understands that those are not appropriate things to say in most contexts).

It's one thing to run a smear campaign against your opponent, it is entirely another to make your opponent run a smear campaign against themselves.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Ouch! I've injured myself again rolling my eyes so much...
Really, this whole thread is pretty pointless. It's obvious it wasn't "The Gaming Community" and obvious many more variants of insults were represented. The OP is cherry picking things to support their cause.
Also, Louie CK said it best about a common gay slur:
TOTALLY NOT SAFE FOR WORK OR PEOPLE EASILY OFFENDED BY GAY SLURS WITH A FUNNY CONTEXT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcja4WFFzDw

I'm just as offended by the rest of it, I'm just lucky enough to not have to deal with having grandparents who were in the holocaust or being more likely to get shot by police for being the wrong skintone.

Also, you are the 4th person who has linked that Louis CK about this very topic.
I prefer Richard Pryor (a much better comedian), NSFW: http://youtu.be/kRfOOHqkW_s

I can't wait till Kotaku writes an article about this now -_-

 Xca|iber wrote:
Considering the nigh-supersonic speed with which this method resolved their problem, I would say it was by far the best (and funniest) solution.
I mean, yes, much of what was posted was practically gag-inducing, but it was clear (to me) from the context that none of the people on that subreddit believed that those things were okay to say. (Sure, maybe one or two of them actually believed those things, but based on the past history of that sub, it is patently obvious that everyone involved understands that those are not appropriate things to say in most contexts).
It's one thing to run a smear campaign against your opponent, it is entirely another to make your opponent run a smear campaign against themselves.

Oh, I certainly got it, and I'm glad it worked. My problem is that this type of offensive speech is quite often used within the gaming community without pause. I don't want to ignore it anymore, I don't want to quit all the games I love because so many other players are awful. I mentioned this on the sub, and got plenty of slurs and insults for my critique of the tactic. So are THOSE people just joking?

I have to say, I think it's a VERY creative way to fix a problem by making your opponent look like the worst thing ever. My problem is when there isn't a cause to fight anymore and the champions of this cause keep doing the same gak and think it's okay.

It'd be nice is Dakka threw in a few other word filters other than for [see forum posting rules]. Dakka specifically is pretty liberal and generally nice and well moderated ( TO A DEGREE)I'm queer, and while having a few encounters with people in gaming stores opening their mouths and inserting foot I've not experienced to much if any at all.Also, I'm a lot older and while my flame burns long, it isn't the brightest one so most people just don't know. I will however call someone out if they use derogatory terms around me, but also I'm in a pretty liberal city for LGBT so that's probably a lot of it.

 Xca|iber wrote:
Considering the nigh-supersonic speed with which this method resolved their problem, I would say it was by far the best (and funniest) solution.

I mean, yes, much of what was posted was practically gag-inducing, but it was clear (to me) from the context that none of the people on that subreddit believed that those things were okay to say. (Sure, maybe one or two of them actually believed those things, but based on the past history of that sub, it is patently obvious that everyone involved understands that those are not appropriate things to say in most contexts).

It's one thing to run a smear campaign against your opponent, it is entirely another to make your opponent run a smear campaign against themselves.

I might be too.. something here, but if they really believed it wasn't OK to say then they wouldn't have said it. They posted offensive things expecting people to be offended.Their plan required it even. Did they consider that their plan might make people feel uncomfortable and unwelcome? I'm not really a believer in the ends justifying the means and there are so many other means they could have taken that would have also worked.

Quite a [see forum posting rules], if you ask me.

nomotog wrote:


Did they consider that their plan might make people feel uncomfortable and unwelcome?

Uncomfortable and unwelcome where, exactly? Obviously it might be a big shocker to anyone unaware of the issue who is visiting the subreddit, but that's why there was a giant, bold, mod-post at the top of the page explaining what was going on. Moreover, I find it hard to believe that anyone would read that reddit page and immediately assume that it was a reflection of the posters' own thoughts (the unusual setup of the thread titles is a dead giveaway). In fact, most confused people actually seemed to think the page was hacked. In any case, a quick perusal of the mod post explains pretty much the how and why of what was going on - as for anyone who couldn't be bothered to read it before getting upset... well tough luck.

If you're talking about the blog/site that was stealing... in my opinion they got what they deserved. Any one of their subscribers who was offended enough to unsubscribe is a victory for original content creators. (At the very least, an investigation as to why "that blog you follow" suddenly has offensive content will surely lead to the discovery that said blog is stealing that content from elsewhere, thus educating that user).

As for whether there was a better solution, I find in my experience that no solution is better or more satisfying than simply having your opponent/problem destroy itself on your behalf. That is what reddit did here. They took someone's method for scraping original content and turned it against its creator, to extraordinarily effective results.

Ultimately, IMHO, anyone who is so sensitive to such things, or whose morals are so high that turnabouts isn't fair play, then I think it is that person's responsibility to filter their own content themselves, not foist demands on communities that usually (by and large) do not exhibit those offensive behaviors.

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:


Oh, I certainly got it, and I'm glad it worked. My problem is that this type of offensive speech is quite often used within the gaming community without pause. I don't want to ignore it anymore, I don't want to quit all the games I love because so many other players are awful.

It's your decision. You will not change other players. Period. In tabletop gaming, I have once seen a situation where people got really mad at each other, flaming with ohsomany words, but that's one situation in all of my years ref-ing / playing. If you have trouble with a lot of different people in different situations at different places..well...I'd reflect my behavior a bit.

It's different in video games, of course, it's the internet. You get flamed for absolutely everything that there is, with or without reason. And going to reddit and not expecting people to hate on each other is pretty naive. You could literally open a thread about your favorite color and get insulted for liking red. It's the internet. You will not change how people act on the internet. There is absolutely nothing you can do. Zero.

It can't be true that there is nothing that can be done. I mean some places online aren't festering cesspools of .. poo. How do they manage?

nomotog wrote:
It can't be true that there is nothing that can be done. I mean some places online aren't festering cesspools of .. poo. How do they manage?

Strict moderation, comments needing approval / review to be posted, delayed registration etc.

By "you", I referred to you as an individual person.

 Sigvatr wrote:

nomotog wrote:
It can't be true that there is nothing that can be done. I mean some places online aren't festering cesspools of .. poo. How do they manage?

Strict moderation, comments needing approval / review to be posted, delayed registration etc.

By "you", I referred to you as an individual person.

Are we sure there is nothing individuals can do? I maybe too naive, but I don't want to believe there is nothing people can do.

Band together, make your voice be heard, file lawsuits, appeal to authorities...there certainly is stuff you can do, but it hardly matters in the grand scheme or, rather, it barely pays off.

The very best thing that could happen to the internet would be the loss of anonymisation. Each and every user is identified by his actual name. Want to insult someone? Get sued. Want to threaten someone? Get sued. Start a hate tirade online? Get tracked down. And sued.

But alas, that's not possible.

Insulting someone is not typically grounds for a suit in the US. If so most of NY would be in the pen. What are you on about?

 Frazzled wrote:
Insulting someone is not typically grounds for a suit in the US. If so most of NY would be in the pen. What are you on about?

Oh, I meant internet insults.

Still not seeing on what basis you can sue someone.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Band together, make your voice be heard, file lawsuits, appeal to authorities...there certainly is stuff you can do, but it hardly matters in the grand scheme or, rather, it barely pays off.

The very best thing that could happen to the internet would be the loss of anonymisation. Each and every user is identified by his actual name. Want to insult someone? Get sued. Want to threaten someone? Get sued. Start a hate tirade online? Get tracked down. And sued.

But alas, that's not possible.

Ya like the winner dog said. Most insults aren't a suing offense. (Some are, but it's rare.) The no anonymity thing actually sounds like a more risky internet. It means bad things that happen to you online can follow you off line. I mean there is likely a reason that doxing is considered so bad.

Who cares what people say, I have to deal with people insulting god and saying lords name in vain on a daily bases. That hurts me on a personal level then if I say anything that offends the queer I get a ear load. I stopped caring about people when they stopped caring about offending me

OgreChubbs wrote:
Who cares what people say, I have to deal with people insulting god and saying lords name in vain on a daily bases. That hurts me on a personal level then if I say anything that offends the queer I get a ear load. I stopped caring about people when they stopped caring about offending me

I can agree with your first part. I have seen in some subcultures religion and the people who practice it are considered free sport to insult, but I don't believe being insulted gives you free reign to insult others.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Band together, make your voice be heard, file lawsuits, appeal to authorities...there certainly is stuff you can do, but it hardly matters in the grand scheme or, rather, it barely pays off.

The very best thing that could happen to the internet would be the loss of anonymisation. Each and every user is identified by his actual name. Want to insult someone? Get sued. Want to threaten someone? Get sued. Start a hate tirade online? Get tracked down. And sued.

But alas, that's not possible.

Get sued? For what? Insulting someone online isn't grounds for a civil suit. If you start to attack people based on their beliefs, you are not better. People are free to be dumb.

As for homophobia and "hatespeech" in the gaming community...

Reddit is gonna reddit. The gaming community has immature people and immature people are going to do immature things. Deal with it. Acknowledging that you can't control other people is part of being a mature adult. You can lash out at them or pity them. Trying to control them will only embolden them.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:
I can agree with your first part. I have seen in some subcultures religion and the people who practice it are considered free sport to insult, but I don't believe being insulted gives you free reign to insult others.

This isn't a religious issue.

If someone "insults" you.. The impact it makes on you is a reflection of your own maturity. From "your mother wears army boots" to calling you a "whore" or a racial slur. Words don't matter and shouldn't be regulated.

There is real racism out there in the world. People need to be engaged, not repressed.

dereksatkinson wrote:

Get sued? For what? Insulting someone online isn't grounds for a civil suit.

I was referring to the internet utopia

If you start to attack people based on their beliefs, you are not better. People are free to be dumb.

Depends. I gave a speech a few years ago and it was interrupted by a group of protestants who insulted me and my emplyoees / coworkers. We sued them and won. Sometimes, German law is awesome =)

Why is there hatespeech? Personally, its because I really fething loathe certain people, particularly on Space Marine online mode, whivh I have just started into. Who abuse the completely unbalanced and OP Plasma Cannon (it has like 3 miles of splash damage and a full charge is a OHKO, plus 2 normal shots is a kill anyway!).

So therefore I use "hatespeech." As in, "you fething little plasma scrub" followed by numerous swearwords.

In general, speaking about homophobic, even racist comments; it offends people, which is the intention. Call any straight man a certain homophobic slur (beginning with F, but I will not say for MODerator reasons), his immediate and timely reaction is to deny the accusation. Most gamers seem to be male. It offends them, as it is intended to, because the gamer is frustrated and angry with their abusing the unbalanced elements of the game, lag due to a gakky connection, God Mode and other hacks, and generally just irritation in general.

Please note I don't use that slur. I only call people Plasma ing ing s.

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
I just got on reddit (I know. oops) to post for some advice about getting back into 40k (I've just been collecting models for painting mostly as of late instead of playing), and to save you peeps from another "40k n00b halp!" post. So to get to the point, the subreddit was having some flame war with another site and decided to insult them as much as possible until they shut down their page. I thought it was hilarious, until I read the insults, most of which were slurs against LGBT people.

I want to say that I don't care much for "political correctness" as I feel it too often prevents people from expressing themselves. Plus, it still accommodates offensive language, it just changes the vocabulary. My problem is that the default verbal attack people tend to have on the internet, across the table, or over headset is to use gay slurs. The second seems to be about sex/gender (which a lot of people think are the same thing)..

I usually don't , but this type of stuff wounds me. You never get used to it. You never get "tougher" or more accustomed to it. It never just plinks off your armor. At least for me. So what can be done about this type of behavior? I know this isn't something that everyone does, but it certainly is something the loudest people do.

Sorry if this should be in OT, I just want to know how you dudes handle this within the gaming community. I certainly exercise the "just don't play them" rule when I hear people saying this stuff but it's still overheard and seems to be getting worse.

Unfortunately, its a thing we have to deal with. You have it wherever you go and online it is worse than in real life. Of course, some little guy is going to act 10 feet tall and bullit proof while online because they would never dream of doing it in real life.
Regardless, The issue i have is when there is a double standard. Most sites have rules and usually there are rules regarding hate speach. Unfortunately, sites are run by human beings and as humans they are not perfect. It is the same here as it is in most other sites. Some are allowed to do anything they want and woe betide the ones who stand up to them while others become victims. This is even more annoying than the original hate speach itself because it is supporting it based of who the one using it is and the target they have chosen. I feel it is innappropriate behavior anywhere.

Having taught such subjects as sexual harrassment, peer mediation, anger management and cultural diversity, I have researched and found that it goes far beyond the usual and can get very subtle I have also found how different people will hide behind loopholes and so forth in order to cover for themselves in case they are called out on it. Sad really, but a fact of life