We all know there is a lot of regurgitation of "facts" about bad or good units that a lot of people haven't actually put much thought behind before stating it as an undeniable truth. So, name your 3 most underrated or overrated units, that you think the popular opinion of the mass might be off the mark with, with an explanation.

For me:





#1: CSM Obliterators. Sure, they are versatile, but they are so pricey that no matter what you have them doing, they are wasted points. Especially since they are generally taken in 3x3 squads as the AT coverage in the heavy slot.... LasCannon Havocs are just a much better choice, they will be worth the points almost every game and on the ones they aren't, against an army with a crazy amount of infantry, well they can still fire at infantry and still only be wasting a similar amount of effeciency as Oblits will cost you every game.

#2: Dark Eldar Trueborn. These were a necessary choice in 5th ED 40k ruleset, before Wyches were introduced. You will see a lot of tactica written in the 5th edition about how important they are, and it's accurate back then, but in 6th ed 40k, they were AT that would rarely be able to make it to its targets due to being the first 3 Venoms to die out of 9, every single game, they became more of a liability. Well, aside from the power creep making the thin Venoms even thinner, this was mostly still the case in 5th, but with no other option it was a necessary sacrifice to redirect shots from Ravagers or vice versa, allowing at least some shooting to get past, if ineffeciently. 6th changed this with Wyches getting an excellent buff in Haywire Grenades, being spread over 6 different Venoms meaning you have to kill all 6 Venoms to kill the AT, for the same price (actually slightly cheaper).This is why most of the better lists I saw moved away from 9venoms+3Ravagers into 6Venoms+Beasts+Ravagers as it's core, but it didn't stop people from regurgitating the crap that Blasterborn are a must have and one of the best units in the dex, when they are really only ever a good choice to make up points between 1600-1850 and still quite optional. In the new dex I wouldn't even touch them.

#3: Tyranid Warriors. More popular in the new codex, but still the underlying concept that they are completely nerfed by S8 weaponry, when point for point they are just as durable against S8 weaponry and light arms as a Carnifex (more so if you include the TL-Devs to the cost of the Fex which I wasn't doing). They are very solid units all round, who might not be as spammable as said Dakkafex who has a defined aggressive role, but work great as a Synapse peg especially considering they can be subbed in in place of your default crappy mandatory troop options, saving you another 40 points off their cost. While less relevant in 5th ed thanks to Tervigons and Zoanthropes having excellent merits of their own on top of Synapse, they were definitely never as bad as people made them out to be, and now in 6th-7th are a lot more desirable.


Honorable mention goes to Plague Marines, who for the most part are worse and far less effecient than taking MoN CSM as your troops. The fact that these combined with Oblits were so popular for CSM players helps me understand why a lot of them had so little luck with their dex, yes it's not an amazing book but start out with a bunch of those 2 units and you are really giving yourself a much smaller overall army strength with the points that you've wasted.






Share with me some of your own overlooked or overrated units, or feel free to argue against my own! Really interested to see some other well supported And to the poster who sees every thread as new opportunity to state that every single unpopular unit is just being played wrong, and all the most popular units are overrated and just the easiest ones, please that is not the purpose of this thread, just share your top 3.

1. Wytches - Underrated. Everyone thinks they're bad without having actually tried them out. And those who take a risk suddenly realize that PfP makes them quite worthy mellee fighters.
2. Stormboyz - Underrated. Haven't seen anyone but me using the guyz. 24-27 average charge range on the WAAAAGH! is not something to sniff at.
3. CSM troops - Underrated. 20 i5 guyz with 3+ and fnp + infiltrate with Huron and probably stuff like shrowded from a lucky gift or Cypher are wrecking face unless they meet 2+ rerollable. And luckily, there's not much 2+ rerollable left. And they're worthwhile in a landraider with a choppy indep.

How do infiltrate them with huron, he doesn't have infiltrate so can't deploy with them?

+2 cover isn't much when there is so much stuff that ignores cover.

1. Wolf Priest: an underrated HQ, put one in a claw unit (blood, sky or swift) and look how they squiz to the maximun PE and feel no pain, even the WP from the 5th was a solid support HQ, and now with the relics ans new rules, he is a great character to use in challenge
2. Wolf guard termies: a lot of people talk about them liek they were the plague, but i find them a solid elite choice, with lots of options from where to choose, you can make them a solid all corners unit, a couple of combi weapons and some ss make the work
3. mmm i cant think in another one

Makumba wrote:
How do infiltrate them with huron, he doesn't have infiltrate so can't deploy with them?

+2 cover isn't much when there is so much stuff that ignores cover.

Huron's Warlord Trait gives d3 infantry units (which can include himself) Infiltrate.

1. Standard Battle Sisters. Sure, Dominions and Retributors are better against their targets, but regular BSS are murder on stylishly armoured flats against anything that relies on a high armour save to protect it. You just can't say no to forty preferred enemy bolter shots.
2. Necron Deepstriking. Sure, its not super-duper accurate, or immune to mishaps, but when you have three, powerful units that can deep strike around the board as much as they like, Necron Mobility is not a shill without Night Scythes.
3. Vendettas. Even under the old rules, I just don't see why they're supposedly so broken. Squadronning means their offensive abilities are crippled by a serious inability to properly choose their targets, and with how much they have to move, its too easy to get at the rear armour with your stationary AA guns!

Huron's Warlord Trait gives d3 infantry units (which can include himself) Infiltrate.

But you would have to roll 3+right , if you roll1-2 you can't and the unit kind of a doesn't work? My boyfriend run huron in 6th ed with terminators sometimes, but he stoped as they don't work anymore.

Wow, I didn't know other people liked Tyranid Warriors. I've heard the internet thinks they're terrible. Yet, I always use them, and they never die.

I'm not sure if I understand what Makumba is saying.

Makumba wrote:

Huron's Warlord Trait gives d3 infantry units (which can include himself) Infiltrate.

But you would have to roll 3+right , if you roll1-2 you can't and the unit kind of a doesn't work? My boyfriend run huron in 6th ed with terminators sometimes, but he stoped as they don't work anymore.

Who told you need Huron to be in the squad? If you roll 2 or more and don't want to infiltrate other stuff, you could give it to Huron too and join the infiltrated squad.

If you roll a 1 - just 1 unit infiltrates, Huron goes elsewhere.
If you roll a 2 - up to 2 units can infiltrate or you give infiltrate to 1 unit and Huron,so they can be joined.
...

 krodarklorr wrote:
Wow, I didn't know other people liked Tyranid Warriors. I've heard the internet thinks they're terrible. Yet, I always use them, and they never die.

The internet is a very small sample and often is just an appreciation of units at face value, i.e. they are ID'd by S8 and thats fairly common, they must be complete trash. Then looking at little deeper, in reality it is still just as durable as most the MC's you would otherwise spend the points on, and fulfills a necessary role of its own, and is better in hand to hand most the time as well

Disagree with las-havocs beating out Oblits. If the enemy is low on armour or is a horde las-havocs are a huge waste of points, whereas the Oblits can DS and lay out some pain with heavy flamers, or twin-linked flamers. Deploy havocs poorly and they'll spend half the game getting LOS, again, Oblits can DS to where you need the firepower, then apply whatever type of firepower is required.

For me I find the Defiler hugely underrated. The internet says it's a snap to kill it but with 5++ 4HP and IWND that's simply false. It's also a threat in multiple phases of the game and can tangle with a variety of enemy models, MC, blobs, heavy armour. etc.

Then they are just an overpriced termicide squad, still leaving you with a deficit of points no matter what the situation. Versatility is great, but only when you don't pay an extra 50% on the model for it. Build a balanced list. What good lists don't have anything that trades badly with LasCannons? Even if Havocs aren't to your liking no matter what the match up, Oblits have cost you points.

Too many to list, and one of the only downsides of the internet community is that so often, the 'accepted wisdom' leads to people being told that units are worthless when they are in fact useful even if not optimal. But to pick just 3, I'll stick to the Imperial Guard.

3) Stormtroopers: The prevailing theory is that they are best used, if at all, as suicide melta delivery units, but especially now they can be taken in platoons and are cheaper, bringing them en masse to open a second front is actually very effective; it requires investment, but can be well worth it to bring three+ full squads.

2) Hellhounds: Prior to the new Guard codex, anyone who asked about Hellhounds would be told to take Vendettas instead, and any discussion was quickly shut down because of that. However, and even more so now Vendettas took a hit, they have a lot to offer especially to a mech list, with both the Torrent flamer and the AV12 side armour. The Flamer brings some nice crowd control, and the boosted side armour means putting them on the end of a tank wall can up the overall durability of the squishier chimera within.

1) Ogryn: Often dismissed as overpriced, but Ogryn make excellent shock troops or counter assault units. They are single minded in their intent, but that means it's easy to focus their one task of being a CQB assault unit, and not hard to make the most of the short range carnage they can unleash.

Makumba wrote:


+2 cover isn't much when there is so much stuff that ignores cover.

Not much stuff ignores both cover and 3+ armor.

See, that's the exact thing you're doing now - underrating csm

I don't agree to the comment on Oblits, they are not a good general AT choice, but a great Swiss army knife. You will have a hard time finding a unit that when it comes from reserve has this much potential to fix your current problems. Mass units and no blasts or templates? Not a problem. Flamers? Sure. High S with AP... you catch my drift.

1) Dark Reapers: Usually considered too vulnerable for their high costs. This is true, thanks to T3 any standard fire will just kill them. But stick them in an Imperial Bunker and suddenly they have AV14 and you can place them right at the front line. Very durable and high threat.

2) Noise Marines: Very usable in my book since they got upgraded to 2 Blastmasters in a 10 man squad. Can shoot out of a Rhino each turn or can be deployed in building.

3) Necron Tomb Blades: Maybe not a good choice in 6th, but with Maelstrom missions they suddenly got very useful. Even a single one can just speed to the objective you have to grab this turn. Not as good as Eldar Jetbikes, but great tools for objective getting.


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 koooaei wrote:

Not much stuff ignores both cover and 3+ armor.

See, that's the exact thing you're doing now - underrating csm

Exactly! This is what happens when people judge things in the vacuum of internet discussions. The real situation usually has a lot more parameters and the usefulness sometimes comes from the combination.

MarsNZ wrote:
Disagree with las-havocs beating out Oblits. If the enemy is low on armour or is a horde las-havocs are a huge waste of points, whereas the Oblits can DS and lay out some pain with heavy flamers, or twin-linked flamers. Deploy havocs poorly and they'll spend half the game getting LOS, again, Oblits can DS to where you need the firepower, then apply whatever type of firepower is required.

For me I find the Defiler hugely underrated. The internet says it's a snap to kill it but with 5++ 4HP and IWND that's simply false. It's also a threat in multiple phases of the game and can tangle with a variety of enemy models, MC, blobs, heavy armour. etc.

The Defiler is more expensive and worse in every way when compared to a Soulgrinder. That's why they're trash.

Ork mek gunz. How are people not banging on about how 18pts for a t7 gun with 5 wounds, 2 of which are 3+ and a st8 ap3 bs3 shot? With the ability to buy extra t7 wounds for only 3pts and rerolls to hit for 3pts? That's crazy good!

Let me put that into perspective - a tac marine with a flamer costs 1pt more. A BA assault marine coats the same. A Deathmark is 1pt more. A CSM with flamer is the same. 4 guardsmen are 2 pts more. 3 guardians are 6! Points more.

 Paradigm wrote:

3) Stormtroopers: The prevailing theory is that they are best used, if at all, as suicide melta delivery units, but especially now they can be taken in platoons and are cheaper, bringing them en masse to open a second front is actually very effective; it requires investment, but can be well worth it to bring three+ full squads.

Could you elaborate on this?

 SHUPPET wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Wow, I didn't know other people liked Tyranid Warriors. I've heard the internet thinks they're terrible. Yet, I always use them, and they never die.

The internet is a very small sample and often is just an appreciation of units at face value, i.e. they are ID'd by S8 and thats fairly common, they must be complete trash. Then looking at little deeper, in reality it is still just as durable as most the MC's you would otherwise spend the points on, and fulfills a necessary role of its own, and is better in hand to hand most the time as well

I'm going to have to disagree with you two....

My problem isn't how squishy warriors are, even though they really are fairly squishy Str 8 isn't rare and warriors aren't cheap enough to play the role of a distraction unit, it is they fact that they lack bite. They are effectively as durable as terminators against small arms fire but they lack punch when they finally hit things, unless you want to start paying even more for them. Even still the best you get is S4 Ap3 hits that cause insta-death, that isn't bad but if you do that they are 40+ points a piece and then your opponent would be really stupid NOT to guide some Str 8 their way.

If I wanted cheap and effective synapse I would just take Zoanthropes. If I wanted a better CC unit I would take Raveners, which are still not that great at it. If I wanted to take a distraction unit to draw fire from my MCs I would just take another MC.

Warriors just lack distinction and a true purpose in the army, they cost to many points, don't hit hard enough, and they just aren't quite durable enough.

Back to the OP;

1. The entire SoB army. People never see them so they have this idea that they are under powered and in need of help, they aren't. The codex isn't great but it isn't awful and it is a lot of fun to play!

2. Hive Crone. I hear constantly how scary this thing is and I just don't understand it, the scariest thing it does is distract you from the Hive Tyrant that is doing all the work.

3. I have to agree with the Defiler. He isn't great but there is potential there and it isn't nearly as useless as people make it out to be.

Obliterators have never disappointed me. I always deepstrike at least one unit of 2, and keep 2 units of 2 on the board, advancing and covering for my rhinos and faster units.

I see Havocs as way too static. If you don't have good LoS (which your opponent will certainly avoid) you waste shots and turns moving from the cover you obviously are hiding in.

It sucks too bc I have lots of Havoc models that I never use.

Las cannons, Missile launchers, autocannons, and an ADL. All shelved.

 vipoid wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

3) Stormtroopers: The prevailing theory is that they are best used, if at all, as suicide melta delivery units, but especially now they can be taken in platoons and are cheaper, bringing them en masse to open a second front is actually very effective; it requires investment, but can be well worth it to bring three+ full squads.

Could you elaborate on this?

This from my IG tactica covers it in some detail:

Militarium Tempestus Scion Squad/Scion Command Squad:
Scions are incredibly versatile and therefore fit most lists. There are several ways to run Scions:
· Melta/flamercide: This setup uses a minimum-sized squad and takes 2 matching special weapons, making good use of deep-strike abilities. These are usually flamer for anti-infantry or melta for anti-tank, with plasma being more situational (but useful if you expect to face terminator equivalents or Monstrous Creatures), but the principle of application is the same. Use the deep-strike ability to land where the weapons will do the most damage (back armour of tanks for meltas, near light infantry for flamers) and focus on destroying or crippling the target in that turn. Anything achieved after this using this setup is really a bonus.
· Force concentration: At the exact opposite end of the scale to suicide Scions, this tactic uses multiple large squads of Scions to gain control of an area of the board and apply force to key targets. Using 2-3 squads in a platoon of Scions and deep-striking onto a weakly defended objective or point on the battlefield, and secure the area with close-range fire-power from the AP3 hotshot lasguns and special weapons. This will take attention away from your main force and potentially eliminate an enemy flank, or at worst force them to divert considerable force to dislodge your Scions. This setup pairs well with a Master of the Fleet to ensure you get the reserves on time, and a Scion Command Squad to issue orders and provide more Special Weapons
· Mechanised: Scions can also be run in Chimeras to work with a mech list, able to use both fire points on Chimeras or take a Taurox Prime for more firepower.

Good setups:
Meltacide: 5x Scions, 2x melta
Force concentration: 10 Scions, 2x plasma guns. Multiple Squads
Mechanised: 10 Scions, 2x plasma guns, Chimera/Taurox Prime

1) Kommandos. I love love love these guys as an ork player. Kit 'em out with burnas and a Klaw nob for a close range threat that's deadly as all get out. I bring a big unit with a KFF+Burna big Mek for an obnoxiously durable unit from hell that'll burn your squishy infantry, carve your tanks or pen your SM armor. My very favorite turn 2 distract-o-unit.


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2) Bjorney the Dinosaur, BS6 Plasmacannon Freshmaker. He comes, he sees, he toasts. Can't understand the dislike of him now that he's so much cheaper.

3) Anrakyr the Traveler. He's got the exact same basic equipment id like to give my overlord, and for 30 points I get a free beefy immortal squad and the ability to do something during the assault phase. Even more trolltastic since the era of imperial knights.

 Paradigm wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

3) Stormtroopers: The prevailing theory is that they are best used, if at all, as suicide melta delivery units, but especially now they can be taken in platoons and are cheaper, bringing them en masse to open a second front is actually very effective; it requires investment, but can be well worth it to bring three+ full squads.

Could you elaborate on this?

This from my IG tactica covers it in some detail:

Militarium Tempestus Scion Squad/Scion Command Squad:
Scions are incredibly versatile and therefore fit most lists. There are several ways to run Scions:
· Melta/flamercide: This setup uses a minimum-sized squad and takes 2 matching special weapons, making good use of deep-strike abilities. These are usually flamer for anti-infantry or melta for anti-tank, with plasma being more situational (but useful if you expect to face terminator equivalents or Monstrous Creatures), but the principle of application is the same. Use the deep-strike ability to land where the weapons will do the most damage (back armour of tanks for meltas, near light infantry for flamers) and focus on destroying or crippling the target in that turn. Anything achieved after this using this setup is really a bonus.
· Force concentration: At the exact opposite end of the scale to suicide Scions, this tactic uses multiple large squads of Scions to gain control of an area of the board and apply force to key targets. Using 2-3 squads in a platoon of Scions and deep-striking onto a weakly defended objective or point on the battlefield, and secure the area with close-range fire-power from the AP3 hotshot lasguns and special weapons. This will take attention away from your main force and potentially eliminate an enemy flank, or at worst force them to divert considerable force to dislodge your Scions. This setup pairs well with a Master of the Fleet to ensure you get the reserves on time, and a Scion Command Squad to issue orders and provide more Special Weapons
· Mechanised: Scions can also be run in Chimeras to work with a mech list, able to use both fire points on Chimeras or take a Taurox Prime for more firepower.

Good setups:
Meltacide: 5x Scions, 2x melta
Force concentration: 10 Scions, 2x plasma guns. Multiple Squads
Mechanised: 10 Scions, 2x plasma guns, Chimera/Taurox Prime

Thanks, that was a useful read.

Well, lets take a look. Under rated squads...

1. Black Templar Crusader Squad- I would say they are often over looked as a flexible combat unit that can fill multiple roles, outside of the OS LRC they can buy. They lost most of their hitting power with the loss of Rage...But besides that they can fill a min/max role. 5 man squad, las/plas with a razorback mounted with a TL LC sitting in the back field. You can fill out multiple units like this to really take advantage of it. I find them far more useful than tactical squads for that reason. 20 man black tide to 5 man squad, they have their uses and can really shine when in the right hands.

2. Assault Squad- Another marine unit I hardly see being used. They compete for slots against Storm Talon and bike squads which can be more useful at times. So I can see how this squad is overlooked as they might see better choices. When I take them, I take them in pairs. Two squads, 1 with plas and 1 with flamers. They can really put some stress when forcing a flank or even DS. No one wants melta bombs jumping around their weak flank or back side. For some extra killing power I load up my vet sgts with twin LCs. Of course the vow helps me out a lot in challenges, re-roll to hit and wound with LCs is a nice touch.

3. I can't think of anything off the top of my head. I almost want to add in the command squad...

For me its necrons,
1. pratorians with swords and pistols, costly yes but hit like a truck each one is jump infantry s6 gun t5 3 rending s5 on the charge oh and entropic plus fearless, highly under rated on the net.
2. Heavy destroyers, again costly but fast tough and have an assault las cannon, grat for getting behind things or just giving grief (dont forget pe everyghing).
3. Doomsday arc whats not to like about a large s9 ap1 blast with silly range. Combine it with a couple of arcs and what do the podded/alpha strikes try to kill with good postioning its leathal plus its a skimmer so if it can go ontop of ruins/battlements with out trouble (terrain dependant if it can fit).
I use all the above and in my area they are not liked at all.

I don't agree to the comment on Oblits, they are not a good general AT choice, but a great Swiss army knife. You will have a hard time finding a unit that when it comes from reserve has this much potential to fix your current problems. Mass units and no blasts or templates? Not a problem. Flamers? Sure. High S with AP... you catch my drift.

I think most people sit their oblits backfield and then complain when they die.

I started playing them, after three games of them shooting long range and dying....I tried moving them up the board.

T5, 2 wound, 2+ 5++ with all kinds of weapons are really snazzy to go upfield. Assault cannons wreck face, twin linked short range weapons, etc. You cut yourself short of half their weapons if you keep them in the backfield. And lets not forget they have power fists as well to go along with the craziness.

EDIT: forgot to add my units!

1. Priests are not better then commissars. Ld 7 tests aren't great, fearless and not going to ground is awful on most human units, and they have one wound. Commisars have options, and actual combat stats, and can GO TO GROUND. (IG players have a useful command to bring units out of the dirt after all.) Priests were much better when they could use the squads leadership.

2. Chapter Masters are not always better then captains. Sometimes you just need a CHEAP HQ that won't die to a stiff breeze.

3. The Psychic phase in general is god awful now. 2D6 rolls have a much smoother probability (therefore PREDICTABLE) curve then the single D6 junk we have now. Anyone telling you that 7D6 will reliably get you a warp charge 3 power off forgot about the application of statistics for single die rolls. Over THOUSANDS of rolls, yes this is true. In one game of 40k, not so much....

I haven't been much of a fan of Obliterators with the new codex at all. Not only did they lose their best DS mechanism (no-scatter Icons), but became majorly vulnerable to Leadership as well, on top of having to fire a different weapon every phase. The loss of Fearless and dump to Ld8 means one lascannon hit means they're running on the same Ld as a basic IG squad, and while Nurgle can help with that, it's become basically a mandatory price increase (which certainly doesn't help with fluff either) and the unit still runs fairly easily. Mine have largely been sitting on the shelf the last two years as a result. They're also just really expensive in every conceivable manner.

Their great advantage is that they can bring whatever type of firepower you need and put it where you need it if DS'ing, but they can't bring a huge volume of it, lost their useful DS mechanism, and once they're on, they can't be repositioned, and, more often than not, they end up being one-shot suicide units and they're just too expensive for that.

Meanwhile, if you sit them up in back somewhere to take advantage of range and line of sight and being on the board turn 1, the "can't fire the same weapon two turns in a row" thing becomes very crippling and they end up being fodder for AT guns.

I just haven't been hugely impressed with them, either using them or opposing them.

the_scotsman wrote:

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2) Bjorney the Dinosaur, BS6 Plasmacannon Freshmaker. He comes, he sees, he toasts. Can't understand the dislike of him now that he's so much cheaper.

3) Anrakyr the Traveler. He's got the exact same basic equipment id like to give my overlord, and for 30 points I get a free beefy immortal squad and the ability to do something during the assault phase. Even more trolltastic since the era of imperial knights.

Bjorn is just terrible, he's a fun model to build and paint, but in game he is horrible. Yes he is bs/ws 6,but still just a 3 HP walker. A regular dreadnought can do the same thing in most cases and be cheaper, all he really has is the 5++, which is still iffy and can steal first turn on a 5+, which is still pretty meh.

For overrated:

1) Thunderwolves- yes they are a fun gimmick, but in reality in a edition where assault is not favored they are just a giant target and if you play in a meta with lots of str. 10 they are pretty much useless. Also without allies they only can get a 6+ FnP with either a lucky roll or a wolf priest that is better used elsewhere
2) Blood claws- yes you can take power armor in groups of 15, and yes they are finally cheaper than grey hunters. Though you still have to deal ws/bs 3, which means most other troop choices will hit them on 3s, while they still hit on 4s and their best gimmick is taking in a stormfang, but if that is shot down, well then say goodbye to a good portion of your army.
3) the new space wolves codex in general- with the new update many things were nerfed, which was necessary, such as rune priest null buble. But in doing that they lost all flavor and the only things that put them on same tier as regular marines. As it stands now anything they can do, a vanilla marine chapter can do better with more wargear, all they really have is the option to take drop pods in the fast attack slots.

oz of the north wrote:


1) Thunderwolves- yes they are a fun gimmick, but in reality in a edition where assault is not favored they are just a giant target and if you play in a meta with lots of str. 10 they are pretty much useless. Also without allies they only can get a 6+ FnP with either a lucky roll or a wolf priest that is better used elsewhere

They're a unit with a 12" move, T5 W2, with 6 S5 rending attacks in almost any first round of combat, for less than the price of 3 basic putz marines, with the ability to kit them out individually to suit any need. They're incredibly tough, incredibly fast, and incredibly killy, for dirt cheap. What's not to like?

Also, how many armies are routinely bringing absurd amounts of S10, especially ranged AP3 or better S10? That's been toned way down, with the removal of the Medusa to FW only, the Broadside got nerfed, Fire Prisms can't link fire to get S10 anymore, Manticore's have seen a substantial drop in utility and a price increase (and aren't AP3 anyway) etc.

Besides, at least in my experience, what I find kills them best is just massed S7 fire like autocannons, strips wounds from them as easily as it does from basic marines, forget S10.

Triarch Stalker w/ TL Heavy Gauss cannon.

If a twin linked high strength, low AP, ranged weapon hits on a BS 4, your whole army is twin-linked. In every single game I've played where this unit has been on the board, it has paid for its points twice over.

Mentioned already, but Codex: Adepta Sororitas is always vastly underrated by those who associate rarity with weakness.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Ork mek gunz. How are people not banging on about how 18pts for a t7 gun with 5 wounds, 2 of which are 3+ and a st8 ap3 bs3 shot? With the ability to buy extra t7 wounds for only 3pts and rerolls to hit for 3pts? That's crazy good!

Let me put that into perspective - a tac marine with a flamer costs 1pt more. A BA assault marine coats the same. A Deathmark is 1pt more. A CSM with flamer is the same. 4 guardsmen are 2 pts more. 3 guardians are 6! Points more.

I don't think mek gunz are underrated. They're usually included in every ork list. Sometimes in multiples. However, they're not broken due to actually being ld5.

I feel like it might be pertinent to make it mandatory for at least one of the listed units to be an overrated one, otherwise this thread will devolve into a bunch of players boasting about how Pro-MLG-Clutch#againstthegrain they are for using units that conventional wisdom say are gak.

Overrated: Catacomb Command Barge

People are jizzing over this but I don't really understand why. I mean... it doesn't really do anything lol. Yeah it's durability is good, but it's damage output is laughably bad for its points. I got into it with another poster in the original "CCB is godmode" thread in the tactics section, and after math'ing it out we realized that it's killing something like 5 MEQ on the charge (that includes shooting/sweep attack) then 2 per turn after that. That's trash for what it costs. Really, it only makes its points back as a fire-magnet. If the enemy doesn't panic and pour dakka into it, it's not incredibly useful.

Overrated: Wraithknight

Has one of the worst damage-to-point ratios in the game- nearly 250 points to kill one MEQ or knock a single HP off an AV12 vehicle a turn on average. Has instant death, but with a less than 17% chance to inflict it per turn. Like the CCB, this thing is a paperweight most of the time that exists to psych out your opponent and trick them into pouring damage into it (to which it's very effective). It is very scary in assault, which it can reach quickly with its 12'' move, but that also puts it in an unsupported position against LasCannons, double-tapping plasma guns, grav-cannons etc. It's also utterly helpless against PF/TH's and especially rending.

Underrated: Seekers

My favorite unit in the game. WS5, I5, 12'' move ~11'' run, 4 rending attacks on the charge, pseudo-fearless and has a 5++, all for 12ppm. 240 points gets you 20 of these babies, for 80 WS5 I5 rending attacks on the charge. Enjoy murdering anything in the game that doesn't have a 2++ and isn't a Land Raider or AV13 walker. Give them a cheap Slaaneshi herald with a locus and now you're either re-rolling failed attacks or auto-passing dangerous terrain tests (and you're not slowed by it anyway) for maximum ass-kickery. With an average move of 23'' a turn, watch your opponent gak his pants when you've got these girls in charge range of everything in his army by the bottom of turn 1.

They're far more killy and have more preferred targets than the iconic Khorne Hounds. They're also less durable, but it's easier for Daemons to scoop up invisibility than almost any other faction, which solves that problem nicely.

 Vaktathi wrote:

oz of the north wrote:


1) Thunderwolves- yes they are a fun gimmick, but in reality in a edition where assault is not favored they are just a giant target and if you play in a meta with lots of str. 10 they are pretty much useless. Also without allies they only can get a 6+ FnP with either a lucky roll or a wolf priest that is better used elsewhere

They're a unit with a 12" move, T5 W2, with 6 S5 rending attacks in almost any first round of combat, for less than the price of 3 basic putz marines, with the ability to kit them out individually to suit any need. They're incredibly tough, incredibly fast, and incredibly killy, for dirt cheap. What's not to like?

Also, how many armies are routinely bringing absurd amounts of S10, especially ranged AP3 or better S10? That's been toned way down, with the removal of the Medusa to FW only, the Broadside got nerfed, Fire Prisms can't link fire to get S10 anymore, Manticore's have seen a substantial drop in utility and a price increase (and aren't AP3 anyway) etc.

Besides, at least in my experience, what I find kills them best is just massed S7 fire like autocannons, strips wounds from them as easily as it does from basic marines, forget S10.

Space marines that bring vinidicators would account for the str 10 shots and ap2. Which means you will need to bring a storm shield which means less attacks. Also manticores still have a great utility, even with a price increase, d3 str.10 large blasts is still immensely good. And then like you said lots of autocannons will hurt them a lot and at best a crap fnp if you fail your armor save. Then if they ever get into combat with a MC, probably other then a riptide they will be crushed.

 SHUPPET wrote:
#3: Tyranid Warriors.

I don't think they're as terrible as people make out... but I do think they're pretty bad still. It's not JUST S8 that's the problem. It's that almost anything can kill them without a lot of trouble, especially AP4. You have to dedicate high S shots to kill monstrous creatures, but there's a whole array of weapons that can kill Warriors, so they don't work for target saturation like, say, taking an additional Carnifex. Then you have the fact they have pretty lackluster damage capacity for their price and survivability. I can see (and often do) take them to fill synapse holes... but the survivability it a problem then, you can't actually rely on them to provide synapse when they're so easy to kill unless you take a lot of them, which isn't a terrible idea but also isn't ideal. Then on top of that you have the possibility of S8 templates which will only do 1 wound on your Carnifex, I know they aren't THAT common, but when you do come up against them and they erase 90+pts of models and punch a hole in your synapse wall with a single shot it is hurty and makes it harder to take the Warriors in a TAC list.

Underrated- Tau sniper drones: the more and more I use this unit, the more I realize they are what I always wanted in tau anti-organic units. Long range, 24" rapid fire, BS5 snipers with stealth is really fantastic, and the ability to get 3 BS5 markerlights is also amazing. JSJ means that if you want to, you can hide them behind cover, jump out and fire, and bring em' back. Couple this with an ethereal hidden within 12" in a durable unit, and suddenly their rapid fire goes from really good to terrifying! I have been running an army with 3 units of these, and an aun'va never die from ranged fire unit (iridium commander joined to aun'va is basically a unit near immune to ranged fire) and they have been performing remarkably well. I also cant express enough how BS5 on an infantry unit without buffs is amazing!

Overrated- Tau missilesides. Broadsides with missile pods. These things are praised the world over as one of the must include best units in the newest tau codex... I find this to be false. They are by no means a must include, they are a decent unit do not get me wrong, but far from being a "auto-win" unit. They have many problems, but Ill address just a few here: The first I'll address is range, which ties into many other problems with this unit. Part of a broadsides survivability was its extreme range. By being so far removed from combat, this severely limited the number of weapons that could engage them without serious effort. Now if you are a loyalist rare breed like me, who still runs railsides, this isn't an issue, but 36" range is a little too close for comfort with a 70 point model with only 2 wounds. Yeah a 2+ save is great, but this isn't THAT difficult to get around, and by being closer to the enemy, you are essentially granting your enemy far more options with how to deal with this unit. This brings me to the next problem, witch is cost. I can understand how much more important missilesides were at the end of 5th/ start of 6th when flyers were new and everywhere and intercepter missilesides were(and could be argued still are) Tau's best AA platform. But since spam air has died down a bit and the initial shock factor of air units is over, this unit becomes a very expensive and far less necessary defensive platform.

Underrated- This brings me back to my first entry with sniper drones... AUN'VA, for a long time considered one of if not the worst character/unit in all of 40k. But I took a long hard look at this character and discovered something amazing. With an attached tankmander, (2+ save, 5 toughness iridium commander), this unit becomes nigh-invulnerable to ranged fire. This is not to say that it is indeed invulnerable, but thanks to the paradox of duality, Aun'va's signature item, the unit is able to absorb such massive punishment that most people I have played against it look at what the unit can do and say "well f#$% that". This allows a perma 12" double buff, LD10 bubble for leadership tests, and perma board-wide rerolls for failed leadership tests, making an army with this combo quite intractable. Couple this with an escort of 3 sniper drone teams, and maybe some fire warriors and the results are hilarious. In all the games I have played with this unit, I have never once had my opponent attain slay the warlord. That says something for a unit that grants extra victory points when slain, on top of the slay the warlord point. The fact that he dishes out 2 buffs a turn is also not something to be underestimated, since he is able to essentially give all units temporary onslaught (with snap shots) Iron hands feel no pain or dark angels stubborn.

My 2 cents

 SHUPPET wrote:
We all know there is a lot of regurgitation of "facts" about bad or good units that a lot of people haven't actually put much thought behind before stating it as an undeniable truth. So, name your 3 most underrated or overrated units, that you think the popular opinion of the mass might be off the mark with, with an explanation.

It doesn't really work like that, in fact it's quite the opposite.
Limited experience (in opposing armies, not as a player) might cause people to overvalue "bad" units.

With 100+ pages I doubt anyone could say people haven't put much thought behind it.

1) Riptide - overrated. Sure, it can have a good gun, but to use it well you have to roll gets hot, nova charge removes a wound 1/3 of the time and they get tar pitted easily.

2) Broadsides - overrated. They are extremely immobile and easily insta killed by S8 weaponry (think kustom mega kannons, my last game against Orks they completely wiped out my unit turn 1). Also, due to how common plasma spam is, they die quickly.

3) Centurions - underrated. Why don't people complain about these guys? They rape everything (except for hordes)! People always complain about Broadsides but these guys are just as good, if not better, against most armies - marines etc.

1) Blood Claws - having them around really takes pressure off my alpha strike, and they, with a Wolf Priest with Wulfenstone, Wolf Guard Leader with a TH and a PF on a Blood Claw they can take on almost anything. And they only cost 1pt more than a standard marine? Bargain. You mitigate low WS with sheer amount of dice rolled. 36 S5 WS3 attacks, 3 S8 WS3 attacks, 3 S8 WS4 attacks and 4 S7 WS5 attacks.

2) Whirlwinds - it munches through light infantry, and there is almost always space for it in a list.

3) Flamers - don't get me wrong, I like them. When you get them off they're deadly, but I find I only get them off about half of the time, and a 50% success rate isn't great. The guy needs to be near the front and that's the part that takes the fire.

Jasp... don't you find that if you use the TLHGC on something it's worth using it on, there's not much of it left to shoot?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Jasp... don't you find that if you use the TLHGC on something it's worth using it on, there's not much of it left to shoot?

IME it still has good utility against troops. For example, the HGC will only plicnk off one member of a tac squad, but if a blob of 20 Warriors is sitting within 12" of a tac squad, and they're rf weapons are TL they're in deep, deep trouble.

I am going to second Stormtrooper's (Scion's or whatever they are called now). I have most often found that full squad with plasma in chimera, or deepstrike is better for my style of play. Get in close and cut those 3+ sv guys down with weight of fire. Any time I have used minimum squads (i.e. suicide squads) they never last long enough to be effective.

I usually prefer the mech variety. I try to pair them with a Vet squad with plasma and chimera. Working together there isn't much they can't handle in most circumstances.

Hordes of Sentinals LOL. I have played a few lists where I field all full slots, that's nine in total.. 6 Scout and 3 Armoured. It's a lot of light armour and hull points for very few points. Not to mention scout moves, the option to outflank, and a fair bit of board control as they can have 4" between them in a squad.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Jasp... don't you find that if you use the TLHGC on something it's worth using it on, there's not much of it left to shoot?

IME it still has good utility against troops. For example, the HGC will only plicnk off one member of a tac squad, but if a blob of 20 Warriors is sitting within 12" of a tac squad, and they're rf weapons are TL they're in deep, deep trouble.

Agreed. I tend to run mine with a Heat Ray (partly for versatility, partly for Wall of Death, partly because of War of the Worlds ) but when combined with significantly-sozed Warrior or Immortal Squads it can ruin almost anything through weight of fire or by spamming Gauss on vehicles (if the 2-shot MM doesn't do it). I also like using a Veiltek with 10 Immortals to bounce in and drop some seriously nasty Rate of Fire on just about anything. The two pair very well.

SpookyRuben wrote:
I am going to second Stormtrooper's (Scion's or whatever they are called now). I have most often found that full squad with plasma in chimera, or deepstrike is better for my style of play. Get in close and cut those 3+ sv guys down with weight of fire. Any time I have used minimum squads (i.e. suicide squads) they never last long enough to be effective.

Out of interest, do you run your Scions with their standard hot-shot lasguns, or do you upgrade them to the Salvo versions?

1. Mutilators - They are good. They provide a level of danger and durability for their price that is hard to find in CSM. I expect no one else on the internet to agree with this.
2. Wave Serpents - They are strictly average. They are as easy to kill as any other AV 12 vehicle (which is "not very"), while being one of the only non-imperium vehicles that actually has an amount of fire power near an imperium vehicle. For this, they are branded as overpowered, which is an incorrect conclusion. They are ok, that's it.
3. Tyranid Warriors - They are actually ok. They're durability issue only exists on the internet. Sure, S8 will instant death them, but how likely is it that S8 attack is being directed at one to three of these 3 man units instead of at the more numerous and more dangerous monstrous creatures in the same army? Low. Put rending claws on them and they can now kill anything that isn't AV14 on it's close combat surface while still providing 12" Fearless for an almost throwaway cost. They aren't awesome, but they are pretty far from awful.

For me it'd be

1) Chaos Daemon Chariots- Underrated, Tzeentch , Khorne, Slaanesh, especially now that Khorne has been upgraded, but before I always would go for a summoned Slaanesh Chariot.

2) Belakor - Overrated, with has much gak that has ignore cover you'd think people would realize he's not as great as people think, he's crazy expensive.

Kangodo wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
We all know there is a lot of regurgitation of "facts" about bad or good units that a lot of people haven't actually put much thought behind before stating it as an undeniable truth. So, name your 3 most underrated or overrated units, that you think the popular opinion of the mass might be off the mark with, with an explanation.

It doesn't really work like that, in fact it's quite the opposite.
Limited experience (in opposing armies, not as a player) might cause people to overvalue "bad" units.

With 100+ pages I doubt anyone could say people haven't put much thought behind it.

I second this logic. Focusing on your own experiences can lead to confirmation bias. My own experiences would yield the opposite of OP's assertion, that lascannon havocs are meritless and Obliterators are wonderful. Limited opponent pools and their personal quirks of listbuilding can make units substantially stronger or weaker due to the absence of certain factors. It's like rabbits. Minor pest in North America where everything eats them. Huge problem in Australia where nothing eats them. Most internet assertions are based on the idea that every concievable opponent type is lurking out there. 40k is also not a sufficiently competitive environment, so you don't see units put to the acid test as often. In a truly competitive environment like MtG, hidden gems are usually unearthed pretty rapidly. While certain cards are misevaluated around release, it usually doesn't take long for correct evalutions to emerge. 40k plays slower, collections are subject to far more inertia due to time as well as monetary costs, and as a result many people are going to cling to bad units for a longer time.

SGTPozy wrote:


3) Centurions - underrated. Why don't people complain about these guys? They rape everything (except for hordes)! People always complain about Broadsides but these guys are just as good, if not better, against most armies - marines etc.

Centstars with invincible tanking characters and access to Gate of Infinity have been a bitchfest target for some time now. Go anywhere and grav anything to death at will. And now you can pop them out of Space Wolf pods with Tigurius. Incidentally, this is an example of someone's experiences really not telling the whole story. He's never run into complaints about them. Such complaints are legion.

 koooaei wrote:
1. Wytches - Underrated. Everyone thinks they're bad without having actually tried them out. And those who take a risk suddenly realize that PfP makes them quite worthy mellee fighters.
2. Stormboyz - Underrated. Haven't seen anyone but me using the guyz. 24-27 average charge range on the WAAAAGH! is not something to sniff at.
3. CSM troops - Underrated. 20 i5 guyz with 3+ and fnp + infiltrate with Huron and probably stuff like shrowded from a lucky gift or Cypher are wrecking face unless they meet 2+ rerollable. And luckily, there's not much 2+ rerollable left. And they're worthwhile in a landraider with a choppy indep.

Exalted for knowing the differance between "on paper" and "On the playing field"

For Tzeentch Daemons:

1. Flamers
When they were grossly undercosted 'delete anything instantly' buttons, everyone loved them. Now that they're essentially just basic template weapons, people decry them as the worst unit in the history of 40k...
The point is, they're still an entire unit of template weapons! With a max squad of 9, you still retain the ability to delete most non-T5 and/or multi-wound targets simply through sheer volume of wounds. And their Warpflame isn't really a problem provided you have two brain cells to rub together and keep targeting a single unit until it's either dead or crippled.
Plus they're still Jump Infantry unit type, giving them a decent threat range and/or the ability to keep hugging cover until you're ready to pounce on your chosen target.

2. Exalted Flamers
Love these guys, and they're filthy cheap to boot. They're best trick is to throw them into a large unit of Pinkies carrying a Blasted Standard... The first unit to attempt an assault against that unit will eat an automatic D3 S5/ap3 + 2D6 S4 hits, likely causing at least a few casualties.

3. Mutating Warblade
The default Greater Reward weapon for Tzeentch daemons. If you're ever going to run a Tzherald in a unit of Screamers, or else a Tzeentch DP, these weapons are ace! Any character or MC killed by it gets turned into a Chaos Spawn on a 2+. Nothing wrong with gaining a freebie reinforcement!
Tzheralds can counter their low S3 by taking Divination powers which can either help boost their survivability and/or gain re-rolls through powers like Prescience or Precognition. With ap3, all those single wound MEQ characters need to be rather careful about automatically declaring/accepting a challenge from these guys, as a single successful to-wound roll is all it takes.
DP's can simply have a field day crushing characters & other MC's, as these guys typically don't want to be wielding the Boombstick which has a nasty habit of nailing them with its explosive effects.

In respone to Vipoid's questions. I run them with just hotshot lasguns.

Sgt. no upgrades
2 plasma guns
7hotshot lasguns

SHUPPET wrote:Honorable mention goes to Plague Marines, who for the most part are worse and far less effecient than taking MoN CSM as your troops. The fact that these combined with Oblits were so popular for CSM players helps me understand why a lot of them had so little luck with their dex

Yes, and to which I'd also add:

1.) Helldrakes. The number one mindless, ravening fear unit until the invention of the riptide. These single-handedly destroyed every army and were invincible and ruined 40k completely.

But they were awful, or, at least, irrelevant. Helldrakes did nothing to stop any of the drawbacks from being a flier on the one hand, and on the other, the only thing they came with was an anti-infantry weapon, and at huge cost. The entire CSM codex is pretty much devoted to killing space marines, and weaker infantry, for that matter. The helldrake offered nothing that the rest of the codex wasn't already swarming with. They weren't even the best choice in their FO slot, being beaten by lord+bike combos, and, to a lesser extent, melticide raptors.

The easiest way to demonstrate how ludicrous the fear was is to compare them to 1ksons. Both were more durable than usual, both had Ap3, and both were really expensive. Yet for some reason 1ksons were the worst unit in the codex, and the helldrake was the best unit in the game.

The only thing more absurd than the crazy overvaluing during its heyday was the absolutely absurd counterreaction when it lost the extra-magic feature of its torrent weapon. It went from game breaking to literally having its balls cut off and being completely worthless and the CSM codex was junk. With a tiny change that just brought the helldrake in line with the rest of vehicle shooting rules.

I'd definitely agree that the main reason people think the CSM codex is bad is because they don't understand the things they're talking about before they talk about them.

2.) Wyverns.

For much the same reasons as the helldrake, really. People saw a torrent flamer and went goggley, and the same happened when people saw a tank with four blast templates per shot, and rerolls wounds! And ignores cover! Everything will die instantly.

And then they ignored its S and Ap. And its AV12/10 open-topped frame.

And they also forgot that, like the helldrake, it was only duplicating what the codex already had way too much of. The wyvern is really only good against light infantry, and you've already got dozens of free vehicle heavy bolters or hundreds of FRF lasguns to handle that.

Yes, wyverns do clear out mysteriously-tightly-packed light infantry with good efficiency, but that doesn't really matter when it can't really even hurt those things that are actually ripping your army to tiny pieces. Especially when you have to waste points at all, and precious HS slots to achieve what you should already be able to handle.

But no, a lot of people suddenly needed to change their pants when they saw the magic words "ignores cover", and then got really pissy when their overexhuberance was challenged by the cold reality of math.

3.) Terminators. This one goes the other way.

Lots and lots of people really hate on tactical terminators. Yeah, they're expensive. They also have a 2+, a 5++, a storm bolter, a S8 power fist, an assault cannon, and deepstrike. Of course they're going to be expensive.

The problem that people have with tactical terminators is the same problem that they have with much of the CSM codex - they have a bunch of mandatory upgrades that drives up their price, and when the player can't figure out how to actually use those upgrades, they assume that the unit is overpriced.

Elite choices in 40k exist to bring versatility and flexibility, especially in diversity of killing power an in the movement phase. They have to pay a premium for this. Players who can't figure out how to use that flexibility and just shove them straight forward and expect them to kill stuff do, in fact, pay too much for them.

But treating them like an HS choice, where they only exist for the turn 1-3 damage they put out, or like an FA choice, where the point is to suicide on some high-value target means that you're using them wrong, and so naturally won't get the most out of them. Used as an elites choice - picking on weak points for strategic gain and then forcing your opponent to split his attention while the rest of your army mops up - terminators can be pretty great.

But in the world of dakkadakka, hard = bad. Thus terminators are bad. Thus they need to be cheaper until their price matches how they're used, or they need a bunch of extra free upgrades to make them fill the wrong role more easily.

In my opinion, berzerkers are (when not massed up) really REALLY good (with a land raider)
I was playing against ultramarines, and with 10 berzerkers i killed his 10 hammernators who failed their charge(well more precisely first round 8 died, and the other 2 died in his assault phase, so my zerkers charged another target (not sure which, think it was tactical squad) and killed them. The only thing that stops me from running them is the need for a land raider

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:

But in the world of dakkadakka, hard = bad. Thus terminators are bad. Thus they need to be cheaper until their price matches how they're used, or they need a bunch of extra free upgrades to make them fill the wrong role more easily.

Yup

 DarknessEternal wrote:
1. Mutilators - They are good. They provide a level of danger and durability for their price that is hard to find in CSM. I expect no one else on the internet to agree with this.
2. Wave Serpents - They are strictly average. They are as easy to kill as any other AV 12 vehicle (which is "not very"), while being one of the only non-imperium vehicles that actually has an amount of fire power near an imperium vehicle. For this, they are branded as overpowered, which is an incorrect conclusion. They are ok, that's it.
3. Tyranid Warriors - They are actually ok. They're durability issue only exists on the internet. Sure, S8 will instant death them, but how likely is it that S8 attack is being directed at one to three of these 3 man units instead of at the more numerous and more dangerous monstrous creatures in the same army? Low. Put rending claws on them and they can now kill anything that isn't AV14 on it's close combat surface while still providing 12" Fearless for an almost throwaway cost. They aren't awesome, but they are pretty far from awful.

The point about WS is simply incorrect. Their damage output is far disproportionate for their cost.

 Ailaros wrote:


The easiest way to demonstrate how ludicrous the fear was is to compare them to 1ksons. Both were more durable than usual, both had Ap3, and both were really expensive. Yet for some reason 1ksons were the worst unit in the codex, and the helldrake was the best unit in the game.

The Helldrake ignores cover (Tsons do not), wounds on 2's against the vast majority of MEQ's (while Tson's wound on 4's), is way harder to kill as its AV12 and only hit on 6's(1ksons are *only* hardier than normal marines when they're in the open facing AP3/2/1 attacks, otherwise, if in cover or not facing AP3 or better fire, aren't any harder to kill), the Helldrake got to its targets faster and easier with less concerns about LoS and range, it can't be assaulted or tarpiited, it also got to hurt things just by flying over them, the Heldrake could engage a much wider array of targets with greater success (Tsons aren't much good at anything besides shooting infantry in the open at close range) and didn't have to split time sitting on objectives. The only thing they have in common really is AP3, when it comes to killing things, the Heldrake is clearly superior.

With the Heldrake being FAQ'd as it is currently however, it's gone down notably in power, and people complain about it a whole lot less.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

2. Wave Serpents - They are strictly average. They are as easy to kill as any other AV 12 vehicle (which is "not very"),

Except that they can choose not to fire their serpent shield, which makes them virtually immune to penetrating hits.

And, even without their shield, they have the option of jinking - which gives them at least twice the durability of any tracked AV12 vehicle against most weapons.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
while being one of the only non-imperium vehicles that actually has an amount of fire power near an imperium vehicle.

Near?

NEAR?

Please list the imperium transports that have more firepower than a Wave Serpent.

 sfshilo wrote:

I think most people sit their oblits backfield and then complain when they die.

I started playing them, after three games of them shooting long range and dying....I tried moving them up the board.

T5, 2 wound, 2+ 5++ with all kinds of weapons are really snazzy to go upfield. Assault cannons wreck face, twin linked short range weapons, etc. You cut yourself short of half their weapons if you keep them in the backfield. And lets not forget they have power fists as well to go along with the craziness.

So basically a really overpriced Termicide squad?

 Vaktathi wrote:
I haven't been much of a fan of Obliterators with the new codex at all. Not only did they lose their best DS mechanism (no-scatter Icons), but became majorly vulnerable to Leadership as well, on top of having to fire a different weapon every phase. The loss of Fearless and dump to Ld8 means one lascannon hit means they're running on the same Ld as a basic IG squad, and while Nurgle can help with that, it's become basically a mandatory price increase (which certainly doesn't help with fluff either) and the unit still runs fairly easily. Mine have largely been sitting on the shelf the last two years as a result. They're also just really expensive in every conceivable manner.

Their great advantage is that they can bring whatever type of firepower you need and put it where you need it if DS'ing, but they can't bring a huge volume of it, lost their useful DS mechanism, and once they're on, they can't be repositioned, and, more often than not, they end up being one-shot suicide units and they're just too expensive for that.

Meanwhile, if you sit them up in back somewhere to take advantage of range and line of sight and being on the board turn 1, the "can't fire the same weapon two turns in a row" thing becomes very crippling and they end up being fodder for AT guns.

I just haven't been hugely impressed with them, either using them or opposing them.

This is basically what I'm saying. You aren't imagining it, this is what Oblits are. Even when I play against them and they their optimal amount of damage, I'm like meh, low volume of shots, not worth the points. Glad that my opponent brought them.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
1. Mutilators - They are good. They provide a level of danger and durability for their price that is hard to find in CSM. I expect no one else on the internet to agree with this.

I guess I get to be everyone else on the internet's representative. Mutilators are slow and purposeful, expensive as gak, and have no guns. Shoot them with AP2 if you need to, but generally you can just run rings around them. They aren't going to be pulling off any charges on you. A CC unit that can't get into CC is not a good a unit.

Original poster-
Keeper of Secrets: Yes, it's less tough and fast than a Bloodthirster, but it's considerably cheaper too, which means more lovely Daemonettes and Seekers (always a good thing). Of the Greater Daemons, the Keeper is the jack of all trades, master of none, and for its price, and given that it's still a GREATER DAEMON, that's not bad. The Keeper wrecks face in combat, almost always strikes first, and only the strongest and toughest characters or MC's are going to live to strike back. Throw in Telepathy psychic powers and it's great at support too. Those Mek gunz that keep coming up in this thread? I wiped the floor with them with one good Psychic Shriek. With LD 5, it'll happen every time. It's nice against strong, expensive units like termies too, where even a few casualties is crippling. And there are the scores of squads I've entirely wiped out in CC. The only problem with the KoS is that it needs to be protected a bit to really bring the pain, which players used to the other GD's aren't going to get. If you just march it into oncoming fire, it's going to die. A well placed deep strike, or a nicely fortified objective and it will wreck your opponent's whole battle plan.

Hellhounds- Seconded. In every game I've run one in, it gets wrecked, but it always causes so much damage first that I wish I had AT LEAST two more. And dang these things hit fast.

Vaktathi wrote:The Helldrake ignores cover (Tsons do not),

is way harder to kill as its AV12 and only hit on 6's

the Helldrake got to its targets faster and easier with less concerns about LoS and range,

it can't be assaulted or tarpiited, it also got to hurt things just by flying over them,

and didn't have to split time sitting on objectives.

And, in reverse order:

helldrakes can't superscore.

helldrakes can't assault or tarpit (especially useful with a 4++)

helldrakes gain the drawbacks of fliers along with their benefits (never showing up on time, vulnerable to interceptor and skyfire, etc.)

helldrakes are easier to kill because they have hull points and can suffer vehicle explodes results. They care a lot less about bolters, but a lot more about everything stronger.

All that means is that the helldrake has the option to get into suicide range to possibly hurt something with a flyby, and they have ignores cover. Or, to put it another way:

Ailaros wrote: People saw a torrent flamer and went goggley ... a lot of people suddenly needed to change their pants when they saw the magic words "ignores cover", and then got really pissy when their overexhuberance was challenged by the cold reality of math.

People grossly overvalue ignores cover, and they grossly overvalue fliers. Ignore all their drawbacks, and the opportunity cost...

NuggzTheNinja wrote:The point about WS is simply incorrect. Their damage output is far disproportionate for their cost.

Yeah, compare the WS's firepower against their points in chimeras or land raider crusaders, and then remember that they also get all the benefits of being skimmers.

Wave serpents have the same problem that falcons had in 4th edition - they have land raider toughness and leman russ firepower and ravager mobility for less than a third of the price of all of those combined.

Their biggest crime, though, of course, is that they make falcons pointless. HS choices as a dedicated transport should only be an option for units you pay a huge sticker price for, like terminators.

fallinq wrote:Mutilators are slow and purposeful, expensive as gak, and have no guns. Shoot them with AP2 if you need to, but generally you can just run rings around them. They aren't going to be pulling off any charges on you.

And what happens when they land on weak units defending backfield objectives?

Then they get the charge or you lose the objective. Or you redirect a boatload of shooting in the wrong direction. You're assuming the same things that people assume when they say terminators are bad: that they'll be used by just plopping them in front of their opponent's entire army and wished good luck.

 Ailaros wrote:

fallinq wrote:Mutilators are slow and purposeful, expensive as gak, and have no guns. Shoot them with AP2 if you need to, but generally you can just run rings around them. They aren't going to be pulling off any charges on you.

And what happens when they land on weak units defending backfield objectives?

Then they get the charge or you lose the objective. Or you redirect a boatload of shooting in the wrong direction. You're assuming the same things that people assume when they say terminators are bad: that they'll be used by just plopping them in front of their opponent's entire army and wished good luck.

Except you still have the problem of Terminators being just as good in CC, much more versatile, and a better value for the points. So why take Mutilators instead of Terminators? Even if they take the objective, the opponent can leave them there and go grab YOUR objectives while they spend the rest of the game doing jack all and costing more than a Leman Russ battle tank, even for a small squad. If they're away from the action, they can do NOTHING, and they'll never reach the fighting in time to make a difference. Also, a small squad is really easy to eliminate with a S8+, AP2 template weapon or a couple S8+ AP2 shots. Instant death baby, no boatload of shooting necessary.

 Ailaros wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:The Helldrake ignores cover (Tsons do not),

is way harder to kill as its AV12 and only hit on 6's

the Helldrake got to its targets faster and easier with less concerns about LoS and range,

it can't be assaulted or tarpiited, it also got to hurt things just by flying over them,

and didn't have to split time sitting on objectives.

And, in reverse order:

helldrakes can't superscore.

helldrakes can't assault or tarpit (especially useful with a 4++)

helldrakes gain the drawbacks of fliers along with their benefits (never showing up on time, vulnerable to interceptor and skyfire, etc.)

helldrakes are easier to kill because they have hull points and can suffer vehicle explodes results. They care a lot less about bolters, but a lot more about everything stronger.

You...aren't actually serious, are you?
1. MoT Sorcerers are bad in the first place, so why would ANYONE want them to superscore? A giant Cultist squad would do better.
2. They don't NEED to assault or tarpit because of their gun and Vector Strike. Plus you're just using Rubric Marines as expensive Cultists at this point. A single Rubric is going to do worse against common targets or about the same compared to 6 Cultists. PLUS I didn't need to waste an HQ slot on a terribad MoT Sorcerer.
3. This goes both ways, with Rubrics being more vulnerable to templates and blasts, and BASICALLY every other weapon in the game because they're just a simple infantry unit.
4. You basically used this point in #3, which was ridiculously wrong.

Like, seriously, you weren't serious when you constructed that post, right?

 Ailaros wrote:

]helldrakes can't superscore.

Nope, but then you're not bringing them for that either, and in most cases, if your T'sons are just sitting on an objective, they're often not killing anything, and you can get cheaper units to sit on objectives.

helldrakes can't assault or tarpit (especially useful with a 4++)

No, but Tsons aren't particularly good for that either, even with the 4++, they're not particularly hard to get rid of, and aren't particularly scary. That's a super-expensive tarpit unit.

helldrakes gain the drawbacks of fliers along with their benefits (never showing up on time, vulnerable to interceptor and skyfire, etc.)

You are correct that their arrival is variable, that's honestly their biggest weakness, far more than anything else, but being vulnerable to skyfire isn't exactly a weakness, it just means something can shoot at them normally. There's also a huge lack of Skyfire in the game right now and often there won't be any on a table quite frequently, and most of that is only S7. On top of that, the Helldrake is well armored for a flyer and doesn't need to bother with Jinking.

helldrakes are easier to kill because they have hull points and can suffer vehicle explodes results.

Most things have trouble hitting them with frequency, and they're actually one of the few units that usually can make good use of IWND since it's so hard to hit them. It's a lot harder to kill an AV12 IWND 5++ Flyer than a unit of T4 3+/4++ marines for the overwhelmingly vast majority of armies, especially for the relative costs of each unit.

They care a lot less about bolters, but a lot more about everything stronger.

Most big guns can't hit them very easily, and big blast weapons can't hit them at all. Medium multishot weapons present the biggest threat, but they're also very effective against T-Sons, killing them as easily as they do normal marines while not caring about that 4++.

All that means is that the helldrake has the option to get into suicide range to possibly hurt something with a flyby

Nobody is going to buy that it's suicide range for the Helldrake, really. While the FAQ has nerfed their LoS with the turret weapon, which has largely quieted issues with them being busted, but they still aren't exactly in suicide range with it, have a huge range form which than can attempt to engage anything, and can hit up to two targets a turn, one simply by moving.

Ailaros wrote: People saw a torrent flamer and went goggley ... a lot of people suddenly needed to change their pants when they saw the magic words "ignores cover", and then got really pissy when their overexhuberance was challenged by the cold reality of math.

Except, unless you're only targeting a very small unit, the Helldrake will almost certainly far exceed the killing power of the Tsons.

People grossly overvalue ignores cover,

The combination of AP3, S6, and ignores cover is what makes it, not just any one thing. Toasting an entrenched marine squad on a 2+ for each model is flat out scary for most players. T'sons wounding on 4's and still allowing cover saves means they will typically inflict far fewer casualties. Even against a unit with only a 5+ cover save, lets say 10 Tsons unload on a 10 strong MEQ unit in cover. On average, they kill 4 if they're in optimal double-tap range. Lets say the Heldrakes template can hit 7, on average, it kills 6, and that's not counting its movement phase attacks. Even if it can only hit 5 guys with its template (unusual for a unit bunched in cover unless its already depleted) it's still matching the 10 Tsons (who are also notably more expensive) The Helldrake meanwhile is much safer from retaliation (as it can't be assaulted and is only hit on 6's and only vulnerable to S6+ weaponry), while the Tsons are in perfect retaliation range.

Underrated: Scout Sentinels. I've been using these things ever since 5th and the age of Vendettas all day all the time. While the vendetta was strictly superior, and arguably still is, the humble scout sentinel gives something the Imperial Guard doesn't have otherwise; outflanking medium-high strength weapons.

I usually loaded them with a Hunter Killer missile of all things and buck-standard multilasers and popped them out behind vehicles. Ork Battlewagons, walkers of various description, basically anything that isn't a Land Raider has reason to fear 6 St 6 shots and 2 St 8 shots in the rear. I once even killed Eldrad with a sentinel, it was glorious, if improbable.

Oddly enough, with the power creep of several current codexes, I've found them even more useful; wave serpents strongly dislike being destroyed by 45 point walkers, and they can be useful for taking out secondary psykers or other supporting units which can really wreck the Guard.

Overrated: Imperial Guardsmen. For the longest time, the humble guardsmen was actually one of the best troop choices out there; ludicrously cost effective in cover, natural gunline unit with a heavy and special weapon for low cost, blobs good in assault with hidden power weapons and supporting characters, and cost effective aggressive units in Chimeras. Now, however, the price increase on Chimeras, and the massive power creep in several codexes, and the overall increase in anti-infantry firepower out there, the humble Guardsmen is usually a bad investment. Orders got more powerful, which gives them some options, but blobs, gunlines and non-vet mech guard simply melt under most armies firepower or psychic powers. They're not terrible, but I find more and more that their only real use is a minimum platoon in chimeras to rush-capture objectives, but even then, Veterans are much more effective at the same task, and can lay down considerably more firepower, while also being unaffected by the Chimera nerf due to being 10 points cheaper.

Hell, even my come-back-from-the-dead immune to 25% test Kriegsmen are basically useless in most games, where either the prevalence of ignores cover/psychic/volume of fire drives them from the field.

Underrated: Thousand Sons. Yeah, I went there. Yes, they're overcosted, but have a number of functions which, while not necessarily "optimal" can be quite useful. For one, they provide an extra psychic die to actually useful casters, provide an amazing tarpit unit (especially when invisible) and aren't anywhere nearly as affected by the continuous rise of AP1/2/3 weapons in the game. The problem, as it were, is if you're running a 1ksons themed list, you really don't have much in the way of good supporting units, as Thousand Sons really aren't an army in of themselves, more an excellent speedbump and good anti-MEQ unit. Through them in a more gunline-y Chaos army with lots of psychic powers and conventional firepower, such as Havocs, Vindicators or airpower (the Turkey is good, but FW has a lot of other vehicle choices which can fit the 1ksons aesthetic better) and they perform well, better, even, than normal CSM with the in-built invuln and fearless.

That being said, they should probably be a bit cheaper or tweaked, or, le gasp, reintroduce cult versions of other units, like, oh, I don't know, Terminators?

But then, this is GeeDubs, and they thrive on the tears of broken dreams.

@Vaktahi: Yeah, my understanding of the issue with helldrakes had to do with its 360 degree flamers, which significant reduced the drawbacks of being a flier. Once the LOS was adjusted, the helldrake became much more reasonable, and at this point is just a victim of its past success. But that's not to say that it wasn't immensely powerful before.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Wow, I didn't know other people liked Tyranid Warriors. I've heard the internet thinks they're terrible. Yet, I always use them, and they never die.

The internet is a very small sample and often is just an appreciation of units at face value, i.e. they are ID'd by S8 and thats fairly common, they must be complete trash. Then looking at little deeper, in reality it is still just as durable as most the MC's you would otherwise spend the points on, and fulfills a necessary role of its own, and is better in hand to hand most the time as well

Oh, i guess I misread the post then. I agree. I use Warriors all the time, and when next to Venomthropes, they just never die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jasper76 wrote:
Triarch Stalker w/ TL Heavy Gauss cannon.

If a twin linked high strength, low AP, ranged weapon hits on a BS 4, your whole army is twin-linked. In every single game I've played where this unit has been on the board, it has paid for its points twice over.

This. Best units to tag team with are Tesla Immortals and Deathmarks.

fallinq wrote:Except you still have the problem of Terminators being just as good in CC, much more versatile, and a better value for the points. So why take Mutilators instead of Terminators?

Sure, but that's an entirely different argument. One that we can only start discussing once there is an understanding that mutilators aren't that bad.

I would certainly agree that terminators are the stronger unit in most cases (though not as good in land raiders or against monstrous creatures once their combi-weapons are blown), but terminators being better just makes them better, it doesn't make mutilators bad.

 Ailaros wrote:

Yeah, compare the WS's firepower against their points in chimeras or land raider crusaders, and then remember that they also get all the benefits of being skimmers.

Wave serpents have the same problem that falcons had in 4th edition - they have land raider toughness and leman russ firepower and ravager mobility for less than a third of the price of all of those combined.

Land Raider toughness? You lose man Land Raiders to plasma guns and krak grenades? I've never seen that.

There are three Leman Russes that are taken: Vanquisher, Punisher, Eradicator. For the specialized roles of each of those, the Wave Serpent is worse at all of them, while being substantially easier to kill, which is why it's cheaper.

You conclusion is buffoonery. You may as well have claimed that a Terminator is as tough as an Obliterator, with the firepower of two Marines, and nearly the assault capability of a Carnifex and wonder why it's so cheap. Don't make up nonsense claims. That's exactly the kind of internet-sheepleisms this thread is about.

You are smarter than that.

I never said Wave Serpents suck, I said they weren't the overpowered super-gods that the internet thinks they are.

DarknessEternal wrote:You lose man Land Raiders to plasma guns and krak grenades? I've never seen that.

I've never seen a wave serpent lost to krak grenades either. Neither have I seen land raiders jink a meltagun or shield away a lascannon hit.

DarknessEternal wrote:For the specialized roles of each of those, the Wave Serpent is worse at all of them.

An exterminator puts down 1.5 S5 hits and 3 S7 hits. The serpent puts down 1.7 S4 hits, 2.6 S6 hits, and 3 S7 hits. Even if you give the exterminator bolter sponsons, the wave serpent still outshoots it.

In any case, the wave serpent's firepower, for a dedicated transport, is in the same league as one of the stronger HS choices in the game. While being on a fast skimmer tank that can jink and choose to curb its firepower temporarily to ignore damage.

Plus, if you're really so worried about krak grenades, they're going to do a hell of a lot more to a heavy vehicle than to a fast skimmer.

DarknessEternal wrote:You may as well have claimed that a Terminator is as tough as an Obliterator, with the firepower of two Marines, and nearly the assault capability of a Carnifex and wonder why it's so cheap. Don't make up nonsense claims. That's exactly the kind of internet-sheepleisms this thread is about.

You are smarter than that.

You're the one who made up the nonsense claim. Ad hominem doesn't make straw men any more appealing.

And I wouldn't even make that analogy, either, as they're only half as tough as oblits, and nowhere near a carnifex. Just because I make an analogy you don't agree with doesn't mean I'm making a bad analogy.

DarknessEternal wrote:I never said Wave Serpents suck, I said they weren't the overpowered super-gods that the internet thinks they are.

What you said was...

DarknessEternal wrote:2. Wave Serpents - They are strictly average. They are as easy to kill as any other AV 12 vehicle (which is "not very"), while being one of the only non-imperium vehicles that actually has an amount of fire power near an imperium vehicle. For this, they are branded as overpowered, which is an incorrect conclusion. They are ok, that's it.

When they are FAR from just as easy to kill as any other AV12 vehicle (easier access to cover thanks to being fast skimmer, ability to jink, ability to shield), while they have FAR more firepower than any other imperial dedicated transports (and most of their other vehicles as well). They are branded as overpowered because their power to cost ratio is skewed way up compared to most other stuff.

SM Scouts - Underrated. Obsec units that can infiltrate/scout/outflank/move through cover, benefit from CT like bolter drill, and Krak grenade any AV12 down vehicle that strays too close in assault, all for 55pts. Ridiculous. Why even run TAC marines?

LS with 2x MM - Underated. The number of times I have had this guy pop out from reserves turn four, instagib a prominent piece of opposition Armour/MC/Character and then move onto an objective for the VP to basically change the game is astounding. Of course, if he arrives turn 2 it's a slightly different story.....

Psychic Shriek - Underated. Massively so. One of the best powers out there, easily capable of destroying a unit a turn. The only down side is the roll to hit, but master craft that psychic hood and you are laughing! (I joke, obviously).

 anyeri wrote:
1. Wolf Priest: an underrated HQ, put one in a claw unit (blood, sky or swift) and look how they squiz to the maximun PE and feel no pain, even the WP from the 5th was a solid support HQ, and now with the relics ans new rules, he is a great character to use in challenge
2. Wolf guard termies: a lot of people talk about them liek they were the plague, but i find them a solid elite choice, with lots of options from where to choose, you can make them a solid all corners unit, a couple of combi weapons and some ss make the work
3. mmm i cant think in another one

Wolf priests/Ulrik have been a go to HQ choice since the new codex came out. They deserved their horrible reputation in the 5th edition book, but I certainly haven't seen anyone under rating them in the new one.
Wolf guard terminators are absolutely terrible. Even with a TH/SS they die far too easily for the insane amount of points they cost. I have tried every loadout I can think of over about 30 games with them and every single game I wish I had something else for the points. 7th is full of long range, low AP value shenanigans. Tau or eldar will wipe them off the table before they do anything. Deep strike is notoriously inconsistent and a good way to suicide your 300 point unit before it even moves and any transport for them is costly. Bad unit is bad.

My favourite units that the internet got wrong is pretty much the entirety of 6th ed Codex Daemons.

The amount of doom and gloom posts upon its release were incredible. Yet here we are, now in 7th edition with daemons as strong as ever.

Of particular note were the pink horrors, who were slammed by some as being a one trick pony and being barely usable.
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2013/03/29/tactics-pink-horrors-tzeentch-review/

Pink Horrors of Tzeentch have gone from one of the best troops points could buy, to one of the worst lickety-split.

They were very good in 6th, and are potentially even better in 7th. Yet upon codex release they never had a chance against the naysayers until the tournament wins started coming in.

This post later amends the previous internet wisdom, and shows just how wrong people got the codex upon its release.
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2014/05/08/tactics-final-chaos-daemons-codex-breakdown/

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
My favourite units that the internet got wrong is pretty much the entirety of 6th ed Codex Daemons.

The amount of doom and gloom posts upon its release were incredible. Yet here we are, now in 7th edition with daemons as strong as ever.

Of particular note were the pink horrors, who were slammed by some as being a one trick pony and being barely usable.
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2013/03/29/tactics-pink-horrors-tzeentch-review/

Pink Horrors of Tzeentch have gone from one of the best troops points could buy, to one of the worst lickety-split.

They were very good in 6th, and are potentially even better in 7th. Yet upon codex release they never had a chance against the naysayers until the tournament wins started coming in.

This post later amends the previous internet wisdom, and shows just how wrong people got the codex upon its release.
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2014/05/08/tactics-final-chaos-daemons-codex-breakdown/

If by entirety of 6th you mean for about 2 weeks after release before Flying Circus, Khorne Hound Swarm and Screamerstar were common, then yeah underrated for the entirety of 6th....

I know you are being facetious, but I think it took about 3 months for Screamerstar to be found (for some reason, not my dex, if it was that gak wouldn't have made it past the first few hours without me noticing it, gotdamn Daemon players wake up brehs),


That being said, I agree that Daemons were never really looked at as a weak dex in 6th

 Zande4 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
My favourite units that the internet got wrong is pretty much the entirety of 6th ed Codex Daemons.

The amount of doom and gloom posts upon its release were incredible. Yet here we are, now in 7th edition with daemons as strong as ever.

Of particular note were the pink horrors, who were slammed by some as being a one trick pony and being barely usable.
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2013/03/29/tactics-pink-horrors-tzeentch-review/

Pink Horrors of Tzeentch have gone from one of the best troops points could buy, to one of the worst lickety-split.

They were very good in 6th, and are potentially even better in 7th. Yet upon codex release they never had a chance against the naysayers until the tournament wins started coming in.

This post later amends the previous internet wisdom, and shows just how wrong people got the codex upon its release.
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2014/05/08/tactics-final-chaos-daemons-codex-breakdown/

If by entirety of 6th you mean for about 2 weeks after release before Flying Circus, Khorne Hound Swarm and Screamerstar were common, then yeah underrated for the entirety of 6th....

Check my post again please. 'entirety' here refers to most of the units from the 6th ed. Daemons codex, not a length of time. Thanks.

If I had meant the entire duration of 6th ed, it would have said: " 6th edition codex daemons for the entirety of 6th ed. Reading comprehension man.

Of course Chaos Daemons were not weak in 6th ed. But if you believed internet wisdom for a month or two after the codex landed, then you could be forgiven for thinking otherwise.
I even provided examples of how misjudged some units were to prove my point. Have a look.

Edit: For those too lazy to click the link but are in need of an example, Bloodofkittens, upon release of the codex, rated plague drones and daemon princes as bottom tier choices for a daemons army, and pink horrors as 'total crap'.
However one year later, after more tournaments and play testing, both daemon princes and pink horrors are rated as top tier picks, with plague drones also receiving greater praise.
This is sure evidence that 'the internet' really didn't understand 6th ed Codex Daemons, and in some cases were completely wrong in their opinions, when it was first released.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
3. Vendettas. Even under the old rules, I just don't see why they're supposedly so broken. Squadronning means their offensive abilities are crippled by a serious inability to properly choose their targets, and with how much they have to move, its too easy to get at the rear armour with your stationary AA guns!

In 5th, what made the Vendettas broken had to do with scout moves: You could make ANY move during "scout move", and since the vendettas were fast skimmer they could move 24" and then move and shot normally in the first turn (and unit inside could disembark as normal as well). So a vendetta could move deep into the opponent's deployment and turned towards the rear armor of any vehicle, disembark melta vets, and that's two high price vehicles that are up in smoke (and I heard one very cheezy tactic of giving vet demolition so they all had meltabombs, scout moving the 'detta, not moving in the normal turn so the vets can multi assault all the vehicles in range). And if you don't have first turn? Reserve, scout gives you outflank free, and you still get the rear armor on the vehicle of your choice. It's stupidly low cost (130 for a single detta with 12/12/10 and 3 twinlinked lascannons vs 150 for three 10/10/10 scout sentinels with normal lascans and much slower) only clinched it for spam. You didn't need to squad them, because what else are you going to use those fast attack slots on? Rough riders?.

6th invalidated that particular way of playing it, but gave the infinitely worse (in my opinion) "hard to hit" rule, making 90% of the anti vehicle weapons useless against it and you could only take one fortification vs the 3 dettas (and the gun would probably get shot out before it could do anything if the guard player was smart).

If you ask about overrated, i could name Kustom Maga Kannons. Don't get me wrong - they're not bad and actually quite decent for the cost. But i don't find KMK to be as good as most people depict them. Here are the drawbacks i've come across in my games (i'm using 2 KMK):
- overheats kill grot gunners dead. And if a gunner dies, you have to pass ld5. That's why you basically don't use ammo runts to reroll scatters and hold them for the 1-s on overheats
- 36' range. Orks are usually an offensive army. And the middle of your deployment zone is reserved for the boyz, so there will be huge 'dead zones' for KMK
- all the drawbacks of small blasts

I often find that my KMK are doing less than cheaper lobbas. However, i still use them cause they're overrated by the others and manage to draw attention actually! Besides, any big gunz are awesome chaff when i forego their shooting and rush forward to screen the grots who screen the boyz who tarpit the enemy afterwards. Works wonders vs assault-oriented armies.

All in all overrated but still decent unit. Not nearly as astounishingly good as lobbas at it's role. Lobbas had been great since 6-th even before the new codex. And now they're even better. Though, you can't take a runtherd to enchance ld now. On the other hand, big gunz are so cheap that even if the enemy wastes his time on them, points are well earned back.

1.) Helldrakes. The number one mindless, ravening fear unit until the invention of the riptide. These single-handedly destroyed every army and were invincible and ruined 40k completely.

But they were awful, or, at least, irrelevant. Helldrakes did nothing to stop any of the drawbacks from being a flier on the one hand, and on the other, the only thing they came with was an anti-infantry weapon, and at huge cost. The entire CSM codex is pretty much devoted to killing space marines, and weaker infantry, for that matter. The helldrake offered nothing that the rest of the codex wasn't already swarming with. They weren't even the best choice in their FO slot, being beaten by lord+bike combos, and, to a lesser extent, melticide raptors.

The easiest way to demonstrate how ludicrous the fear was is to compare them to 1ksons. Both were more durable than usual, both had Ap3, and both were really expensive. Yet for some reason 1ksons were the worst unit in the codex, and the helldrake was the best unit in the game.

The only thing more absurd than the crazy overvaluing during its heyday was the absolutely absurd counterreaction when it lost the extra-magic feature of its torrent weapon. It went from game breaking to literally having its balls cut off and being completely worthless and the CSM codex was junk. With a tiny change that just brought the helldrake in line with the rest of vehicle shooting rules.

And, in reverse order:

helldrakes can't superscore.

helldrakes can't assault or tarpit (especially useful with a 4++)

helldrakes gain the drawbacks of fliers along with their benefits (never showing up on time, vulnerable to interceptor and skyfire, etc.)

helldrakes are easier to kill because they have hull points and can suffer vehicle explodes results. They care a lot less about bolters, but a lot more about everything stronger.

Just to address the Heldrake point a bit, first the super scoring thing is a non-point as the heldrake rage was a 6E thing, where superscoring did not exist. Also as has already been stated you needed to take a tzeentch sorcerer to even make that happen, which is a huge opportunity cost.

Thousand sons cannot tarpit very well either, being slow and purposeful, if they win the assault people can walk away unharmed (now maybe they tarpit something that beats them, but at 20+ points per model, that is an expensive tarpit.)

Heldrakes are harder to kill point for point than thousand sons.

6 thousand sons cost about the same points as the heldrake, and die faster against basically all small arms fire, and about the same against heavy weapons without skyfire. They are also way less killy for their points (if in rapid fire against Tactical Marines, with no cover, they average 3.3 dead marines. When playing with a heldrake with the 360 degree torrent, I cannot remember a time where I was not able to cover 4-5 models, and on average all of them died. That doesn't count vecotr striking.

That said, in 7e, heldrakes are a non-issue, with nerfs to their arc, and vector strike. Even during the end of 6th you saw far less of them due to 2+ re-rollables, and mostly only saw them in FMC builds.

As others have said a lot of this depends on your meta, and experience, so rating or not rating things depends on what you see.

Tyranid warriors are pretty terrible in a meta full of Iknights, Lascannon havocs are bad if you have a lot of terrain on tables etc.

For mine

Beasts of Nurgle- Iknights hurt them quite a bit, but I never see them talked about and have used them very successfully in the past, they are way more durable than people expect.

 Ailaros wrote:

People grossly overvalue ignores cover, and they grossly overvalue fliers. Ignore all their drawbacks, and the opportunity cost...

NuggzTheNinja wrote:The point about WS is simply incorrect. Their damage output is far disproportionate for their cost.

Yeah, compare the WS's firepower against their points in chimeras or land raider crusaders, and then remember that they also get all the benefits of being skimmers.

Wave serpents have the same problem that falcons had in 4th edition - they have land raider toughness and leman russ firepower and ravager mobility for less than a third of the price of all of those combined.

Their biggest crime, though, of course, is that they make falcons pointless. HS choices as a dedicated transport should only be an option for units you pay a huge sticker price for, like terminators.

So, people grossly overvalue ignores cover, and you don't realize it makes a WS just another very expensive AV12 vehicle ?

The WS never had the toughness of a Land Raider, and this is especially true since 6th/7th, where a rear armor of 10 means any CC is a serious threat.

Leman Russ firepower ? I wonder which variant. You do know the WS has no AP, rending or armorbane right ?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:You lose man Land Raiders to plasma guns and krak grenades? I've never seen that.

I've never seen a wave serpent lost to krak grenades either.

Yes we know you lack experience with the WS, it's showing and that's why we're trying to help you realize your mistake and exaggeration.

The WS never had the toughness of a Land Raider

The wave serpent is less durable than a landraider and is therefore a poor, weak vehicle!
So....it was not just the internet......but also everyone else on the planet who was wrong......thank you morgoth for showing us how underpowered the eldar codex is!

Haha classic morgoth. Keep it up.

Regarding eldar, I would say that the wraithknight received a lot misplaced criticism when the new codex arrived. Some sites were dead sure that the knight was never going to be picked over 2 wraithlords, due to its reduced firepower and increased price. I wish these predictions remained true, I much prefer my opponent's wraith units to be the non-jumping variety :(

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

The WS never had the toughness of a Land Raider

The wave serpent is less durable than a landraider and is therefore a poor, weak vehicle!

Way to strawman.

I point out why it's inaccurate to say "a WS is as tough as a Land Raider" and that's all you've got as counter-argument ?

I prefer my Wraith units the way I prefer my spiders - the non jumpy sort!


Yeah, I really wish Morgoth would just quit posting. So many threads derailed by an unwillingness to admit something he A) either knows is true and is unwilling to admit, or B) is so blinded by the fact that Eldar is his first last and only army that he's never actually been able to comprehend how the army works in relation to the rest of the game. EIther way, we don't need to hear a one sided point of view about how Wave Serpents perform in every single thread he clicks on.

Also, Morgoth - when you a trying to tutor Ailaros on how overrated Wave Serpents are, there is no "we". This is just you sayin it. In every thread. Over and over. Excuse yourself from the debate as you are emotionally involved on a personal level and your bias strongly clouds the opinions you put forth.

1) Autocannons. Now, I don't know if this is just unfortunate luck on my part, but mine just never seem to do anything. All they do is bounce off MCs or bounce off light transports.

2-3... I'll get back to you.

morgoth wrote:

Way to strawman.

I point out why it's inaccurate to say "a WS is as tough as a Land Raider" and that's all you've got as counter-argument ?

To be fair, there was a reasonable counter-argument above. Yes, a Wave Serpent can be hurt by more weapons - but it can also jink hits from strong and weak weapons alike, as well as having a shield that reduces any penetrate to a glance on a 2+.

Land Raiders can claim neither of those defences.

Obviously it depends on the situation and exactly what weapons are being used against them, but I certainly don't think it's unreasonable for someone to say that a Wave Serpent has comparable durability to a Land Raider.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Regarding eldar, I would say that the wraithknight received a lot misplaced criticism when the new codex arrived. Some sites were dead sure that the knight was never going to be picked over 2 wraithlords, due to its reduced firepower and increased price. I wish these predictions remained true, I much prefer my opponent's wraith units to be the non-jumping variety :(

I love how the Eldar apparently thought to themselves "Well, Wraithlords are good, but how can we make them faster?", to which one responded "I have an idea - we'll double the size of a Wraithlord and therefore double its speed too. That's how physics works, right?"

morgoth wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

The WS never had the toughness of a Land Raider

The wave serpent is less durable than a landraider and is therefore a poor, weak vehicle!

Way to strawman.

I point out why it's inaccurate to say "a WS is as tough as a Land Raider" and that's all you've got as counter-argument ?

I'm not arguing with you morgoth. You are right. You have always been right. About everything. Including your 'underpowered' tournament winning army and everything about warhammer ever.
Everone else, on the internet or otherwise, even if they have more experience with eldar or warhammer as a whole, is of course wrong.
You are a paragon of integrity. Your care for the balance of the game by wishing to help the poor eldar faction is heart warming.

On the real topic, I don't think waveserpents are misunderstood by the internet. They are universally regarded as one of, if not the best transports in the game, They are ridiculously durable, have high damage output and are widely available.

The only differences in opinions over serpents is to the extent of their power - from seriously competitive up to overpowered.

@Vaktahi - You know better at this point. He's just as likely to have come out with the opposite argument had the conversation started with Tksons instead of the 'Drake. lol Plus he seems to play in a very ... odd ... meta. In my mind Ailaros has become the poster boy for the age old argument of "Your army/unit/codex is fine. Because Tactics."

These might just be situational to my meta but here we go:

Underated - Stormraven used as a transport

It wasn't that long ago that the internet would have had you believing that Stormravens were falling from the sky like rain drops and that one sideways glance from a Tau commander or Coteaz behind a Quad gun would have them exploding like a no-named Transformer in a Michael Bay film. I just never found that to be true. I play in a very tough meta and I've had quite a bit of luck with blitzing in a Storm Raven to deposit a Blendernaught and some DC, or some TH/SH Terminators onto a particular piece of real estate while also being able to provide decent fire support. Using this with the Stormwing formation (I think that's the name - its the formation w/1 raven and 2 talons) makes them even more viable. Still a risk yes, but it seems to work a lot more than the 'net would have you believe.


Underated - Raptors

Oh yeah, I went there (hey, at least I didn't say "Warp Talons"). Admittedly, the fact that they're in a slot with Nurgle Bikers, the 'Drake and Spawn doesn't help their case, but in an army devoid of drop pods, I've found they can be a pretty useful surprise. Again, like Stormraven entry above, I'm not claiming they're "ZOMG AMAZING" or anythign crazy, but if the idea is "under-rated" then I think they fit the bill quite well.

Over-rated - Riptides

Yeah, they're big and scary and tough to kill. I've found though, that their damage output isn't as bad as you expect and they can generally be avoided/ignored a lot of the time.

Tycho wrote:
Over-rated - Riptides

Yeah, they're big and scary and tough to kill. I've found though, that their damage output isn't as bad as you expect and they can generally be avoided/ignored a lot of the time.

This. I mean, yeah, they're dangerous as feth and can put out a beatdown, but I'd prioritize fire to Broadsides first, then Crisis Suits... hell, maybe even Fire Warriors. If I can't guarantee some reasonable damage to a Riptide, I probably will use it on something I can.

Just because it doesn't have the highest damage output in the army is not why it's OP, it's the ridiculous price attached to it and the fact that there is almost no reason not to include 3 of the very best MC at the <200 pt price range. And while his damage output might not be comparable to some other Tau units (ones that almost fall into the category of glass cannon as well), it's funny, because EVEN the HBC riptide outshoots EVERY SINGLE OTHER MC AT <200 PTS. To say nothing of Ion Cannon, and the fact that it is the most durable model in the army. And for the price tag, arguably the game. It's easy to forget WHY the Riptide is overpowered in a game full of Lords of War, Knights, Gargants, Superheavies and other nonsense such as the WK. It's ridiculously underpriced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Tycho wrote:
Over-rated - Riptides

Yeah, they're big and scary and tough to kill. I've found though, that their damage output isn't as bad as you expect and they can generally be avoided/ignored a lot of the time.

This. I mean, yeah, they're dangerous as feth and can put out a beatdown, but I'd prioritize fire to Broadsides first, then Crisis Suits... hell, maybe even Fire Warriors. If I can't guarantee some reasonable damage to a Riptide, I probably will use it on something I can.

As would I. As would any sensible player, you are forced to leave Riptides for last, their durability makes it so when you shoot them it actually hurts you more than shooting something else, the amount of firepower they can soak up. And to act like they can't dish out a lot is crazy as well, very few units in the game at that points cost can deal that much damage at optimal situations, not mentioning Riptides durability, speed and range advantage over most of them.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

On the real topic, I don't think waveserpents are misunderstood by the internet. They are universally regarded as one of, if not the best transports in the game,

What exactly are they transporting that matters? At best they become Objective Secured (which makes the list of "rules overrated by the internet) by carrying some worthless Troop unit.

Since the answer is "nothing". Mentioning that it's a transport adds nothing.

Maybe you meant Dedicated Transport. If then, maybe you'd at least have a point in that it can be taken out of every FOC slot, while other army' units that are equivalent come out of Heavy Support or Fast Attack. Even then, that doesn't mean there's necessarily more of them than those things, for example Leman Russes come 15 to a FOC and are cheaper (since they don't require some garbage unit to unlock them that will contribute absolutely nothing).

Ailaros wrote:
I've never seen a wave serpent lost to krak grenades either.

The people in your meta that play Marines aren't very good then.

Ailaros wrote:
Neither have I seen land raiders jink a meltagun or shield away a lascannon hit.

Good thing lascannons damage Land Raiders on a 3+ and melta guns on a 4+, oh wait. That isn't how things actually work.

In related news, Land Raiders blow. Notice the lack of anyone in this thread defending their reputation as garbage-water?

In summation, Wave Serpents are adequate. Comparing them to units everyone agrees sucks is a waste of time. Playing against bad opponents doesn't make something better than it objectively is.

I'm done with this thread now. Go back to your world where everything the internet says is gospel.

Then don't take the garbage Eldar units? Nobody is saying you have to take Howling Banshees for your Wave Serpents.

Yeah, you can take a lot of Russ tanks, but then they're all Squadroned, and they're *far* less effective when employed in that manner than as individual units. Their slow speed (especially coupled with Squadron restrictions) greatly limits much of the utility of numbers too when it comes to taking objectives, securing firing lanes, redeploying to engage (or retreat from) a new threat, etc.

The issue with the wave serpent is that it can claim objectives, put out as much firepower as a Leman Russ tank (and land more of it more accurately in many cases), zip around wherever the hell it wants, can gain a 3+ jink in the open at will (and still land a decent number of shots), has incredible range, and can deliver troops if they're needed. It does practically everything and does it well.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

In summation, Wave Serpents are adequate. Comparing them to units everyone agrees sucks is a waste of time. Playing against bad opponents doesn't make something better than it objectively is.

You can't really say they are merely adequate when WS spam lists are in the top 3 if not first in 90% of the tournament scene. Thats not the internet talking, thats reality. The fact that its a dedicated transport DOES matter, IMO, for 2 reasons: 1)Obsec plus its speed means it can objective steal and 2) I cant think of any other army that has a DT that is anywhere close to as powerful as it is in terms of both survivability and firepower. It *should* be the eldar equivalent of a rhino. Instead, it is a rhino PLUS main battle tank. Even with the min troop tax added to its cost its still ~50 points too cheap.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Then don't take the garbage Eldar units? Nobody is saying you have to take Howling Banshees for your Wave Serpents.

Yeah, you can take a lot of Russ tanks, but then they're all Squadroned, and they're *far* less effective when employed in that manner than as individual units. Their slow speed (especially coupled with Squadron restrictions) greatly limits much of the utility of numbers too when it comes to taking objectives, securing firing lanes, redeploying to engage (or retreat from) a new threat, etc.

The issue with the wave serpent is that it can claim objectives, put out as much firepower as a Leman Russ tank (and land more of it more accurately in many cases), zip around wherever the hell it wants, can gain a 3+ jink in the open at will (and still land a decent number of shots), has incredible range, and can deliver troops if they're needed. It does practically everything and does it well.

Watch it, someone's going to throw out a "schroedinger's wave serpent" here with that sort of talk...

The main problem is that it can CHOOSE to do any of the above depending on the circumstances, which is almost as good as being able to do all of that at once (since, obviously, it won't NEED to do all of those things in a given turn... plus there will be 3-4 other Wave Serpents in a proper cheese list to make up for any lost firepower).

Well, it *does* cost a Rhino plus a battle tank. But yeah, overpowered.

1) I would say the Serpent is overrated, but still OP. It is awesome, but it does have it's weaknesses. Perhaps this isn't the right thread to go over it again then. Feel free to write up a new thread, but lets not derail this one?

2) Dire Avengers are both overrated and underrated. Half the community regards them as nothing more than Serpent tax. The other half seem to think they can wipe out whole tac squads in a single salvo.

3) Dev Squads as counterassault units for UltraMarines (and descendants), when facing Tide-style armies. Relentless before countercharging, before the Orkz (or whatever) gets to charge? Quite brutal.

Bharring wrote:

1) I would say the Serpent is overrated, but still OP. It is awesome, but it does have it's weaknesses. Perhaps this isn't the right thread to go over it again then. Feel free to write up a new thread, but lets not derail this one?

Thank you. Some people let "OP" cloud their judgement and think that it's widely agreed these things have the survivability of a superheavy and the damage output of a D weapon. No, it's just overpowered in the sense that for it's points cost and available (easily spammable) there's nothing that can really match it in both strength and durability. Doesn't make it unstoppable, definitely OP however. Now, morgoth has said he's done with this thread, so perhaps we can continue on with the original topic, nothing wrong with a bit of debate, but just derailing this into a Wave Serpent debate of the people vs morgoth, for the 50,000th time, is completely unproductive

Big Blind Bill wrote:

On the real topic, I don't think waveserpents are misunderstood by the internet. They are universally regarded as one of, if not the best transports in the game,

What exactly are they transporting that matters? At best they become Objective Secured (which makes the list of "rules overrated by the internet) by carrying some worthless Troop unit.

Wave serpents are a transport vehicle. They are considered to be a very powerful vehicle, and taken by many Eldar lists. The only way to take them is as a dedicated transport. They are therefore one of the best transport vehicles in the game.

The point over what they carry is not important to my point. The fact is that they are a transport vehicle, and I simply called them as such.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The issue with the wave serpent is that it can claim objectives, put out as much firepower as a Leman Russ tank (and land more of it more accurately in many cases), zip around wherever the hell it wants, can gain a 3+ jink in the open at will (and still land a decent number of shots), has incredible range, and can deliver troops if they're needed. It does practically everything and does it well.

Good.

So if the Wave Serpent does not have as much firepower as an LR tank, and does lose 66% of its DPS when jinking, and only has 36" effective range (34" because of where the turret is), then everything's fine right ?

What exactly are they transporting that matters? At best they become Objective Secured (which makes the list of "rules overrated by the internet) by carrying some worthless Troop unit.

It's because they are a transport that it matters. You can take 6 WS and still not sacrifice any of your HS, FA or Elites slots, that's insane.

 Zewrath wrote:

What exactly are they transporting that matters? At best they become Objective Secured (which makes the list of "rules overrated by the internet) by carrying some worthless Troop unit.

It's because they are a transport that it matters. You can take 6 WS and still not sacrifice any of your HS, FA or Elites slots, that's insane.

Says the guy with an IG profile picture.

The only reason there's so much whine about Eldar and WS is that they're not IoM.

morgoth wrote:

Says the guy with an IG profile picture.

Oh no! Not Imperial Guard! They get all the good stuff.

I mean, who'd want to zoom around shooting TL S6 shots and TL S7 Ignore cover shots when you can crawl around shooting BS3 heavy bolters and multilasers? Yeah, stuff those guard players.

morgoth wrote:
The only reason there's so much whine about Eldar and WS is that they're not IoM.

Yep, that's the only possible reason.



Remember kids - if there's a fact you don't like, just go into denial until reality itself warps around you.

Morgoth:
The only reason you whine so much about people complaining about the wave serpent is because then you will have to admit that your victories are diluted by you using a unit that everybody else knows is overpowered. Now change the track, or maybe post people links to where you have repeated the same garbage again and again rather than derailing yet another thread because you are scared of admitting your victories are not as impressive as you believe.
Even better - go play regularly with another army to gain others respect.
Not saying eldar players don't deserve respect, saying eldar players who have never played another army (not just one offs) yet come on here telling people how to use other armies and how poor other people are with other armies, deserve less respect than their undeserved gigantic heads believe they do.
Again - stop derailing yet another thread with the same thing again and again and again and again... post a link.
The OP does not want 12 pages of your repeated moaning again. I imagine he/she would like other units discussed as well.

morgoth wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

What exactly are they transporting that matters? At best they become Objective Secured (which makes the list of "rules overrated by the internet) by carrying some worthless Troop unit.

It's because they are a transport that it matters. You can take 6 WS and still not sacrifice any of your HS, FA or Elites slots, that's insane.

Says the guy with an IG profile picture.

The only reason there's so much whine about Eldar and WS is that they're not IoM.

Lol. No, seriously, top insuinuating bias when there is none. Objectively the WS is the best transport out there, for its points, in terms of survivability and damage output. per point.

Troll serpents.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/621226.page#7317943
There we go started a new one for you.
Now people will not have to sift through tons of wave serpent argument to try and discuss other units.

 vipoid wrote:
Oh no! Not Imperial Guard! They get all the good stuff.

There's nothing like goldfish memory is there ?

morgoth wrote:
There's nothing like goldfish memory is there ?

Sorry, I wasn't aware that we'd gone back in time to 5th edition. How remiss of me.

Poly Ranger wrote:



The only reason you whine so much about people complaining about the wave serpent is because then you will have to admit that your victories are diluted by you using a unit that everybody else knows is overpowered. Now change the track, or maybe post people links to where you have repeated the same garbage again and again rather than derailing yet another thread because you are scared of admitting your victories are not as impressive as you believe.

Omg I've bookmarked a link to this post and will be quoting it everytime morgoth does this crap.

I wish someone with a little more time on my hands could submit a detailed report to dakka mods. Derails every single thread he clicks on with this crap? Rude attitude to boot? Refusal to engage in actual discussion instead preferring a word slinging match? He's just incredibly bad at foruming and this game in general, why is he trying to tutor high level players with low level nonsense?

Poly Ranger wrote:
Morgoth:
The only reason you whine so much about people complaining about the wave serpent is because then you will have to admit that your victories are diluted by you using a unit that everybody else knows is overpowered. Now change the track, or maybe post people links to where you have repeated the same garbage again and again rather than derailing yet another thread because you are scared of admitting your victories are not as impressive as you believe.
Even better - go play regularly with another army to gain others respect.
Not saying eldar players don't deserve respect, saying eldar players who have never played another army (not just one offs) yet come on here telling people how to use other armies and how poor other people are with other armies, deserve less respect than their undeserved gigantic heads believe they do.
Again - stop derailing yet another thread with the same thing again and again and again and again... post a link.
The OP does not want 12 pages of your repeated moaning again. I imagine he/she would like other units discussed as well.

Just to clairfy - there's someone who runs a Wave Serpent list, who then boasts about their victories because Serpents aren't that powerful and that the other players aren't very good ?

Bartali wrote:

Just to clairfy - there's someone who runs a Wave Serpent list, who then boasts about their victories because Serpents aren't that powerful and that the other players aren't very good ?

There are probably such people.

But instead, Poly Ranger would like to picture me as such because I dare offer the possibility that the Wave Serpent is just one among many excellent units in 40K.

SM Honor Guard (only one i can think of)
- fairly cheapish for 5 [EDIT: Min size is 3 for more points pinching.]
- Comes with bolter w/ the PW and BP to help with Anti-infantry shooting
- Can mix and match power weapons to be versatile against several different threats (barring the TH and RBs).
- Comes with a Chapter Master at no-slot cost (allowing for a chaplain/librarian [Ergo a command squad too])
- 2+ armor means any fire directed at terminators/centurions might get directed to these guys

morgoth wrote:

Bartali wrote:

Just to clairfy - there's someone who runs a Wave Serpent list, who then boasts about their victories because Serpents aren't that powerful and that the other players aren't very good ?

There are probably such people.

But instead, Poly Ranger would like to picture me as such because I dare offer the possibility that the Wave Serpent is just one among many excellent units in 40K.

No it's because you derail every thread with this same crap and I've never heard you once admit that Wave Serpents are OP btw you clearly argue that they are a balanced unit and every other codex is underpowered. Which is just a narrow and bias point of view and you just struggle to realise that you losing games with Wave Serpents isn't because he units are worse than people say they are, it's because your dice were bad or your playskill is bad. I think everyone here can tell it's the latter however based on your low level face value interpretation of units and refusal to try to comprehend any logic that would go disassemble your complex about your skill level at this game. You will never get better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Holy gak this thread got off topic quickly


Just as it always does when Morgoth clicks submit

So over this guy lol

 ace101 wrote:
SM Honor Guard (only one i can think of)
- fairly cheapish for 5 [EDIT: Min size is 3 for more points pinching.]
- Comes with bolter w/ the PW and BP to help with Anti-infantry shooting
- Can mix and match power weapons to be versatile against several different threats (barring the TH and RBs).
- Comes with a Chapter Master at no-slot cost (allowing for a chaplain/librarian [Ergo a command squad too])
- 2+ armor means any fire directed at terminators/centurions might get directed to these guys

With you on this! Awsome for their price tag. As long as you can get them into assault and build a list around/to help them they can easily be worth their points.

Wytches - Underrated. Everyone thinks they're bad without having actually tried them out. And those who take a risk suddenly realize that PfP makes them quite worthy mellee fighters.

Not bothering with 7th ed but in 6th I tried them a lot and they were awful at melee - they could on a good day survive it quite well but actually killing stuff - rubbish at it, especially anything in armour was highly unlikely - it didn't help that these "close combat masters" only hit most opponents on a 4+. I gave up and stuck to Incubi - at least they can kill things.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Not bothering with 7th ed but in 6th I tried them a lot and they were awful at melee - they could on a good day survive it quite well but actually killing stuff - rubbish at it, especially anything in armour was highly unlikely - it didn't help that these "close combat masters" only hit most opponents on a 4+. I gave up and stuck to Incubi - at least they can kill things.

My experiences were much the same.

Though, I struggled to even get a squad of them into combat - frequently they just got shredded by overwatch fire.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Wytches - Underrated. Everyone thinks they're bad without having actually tried them out. And those who take a risk suddenly realize that PfP makes them quite worthy mellee fighters.

Not bothering with 7th ed but in 6th I tried them a lot and they were awful at melee - they could on a good day survive it quite well but actually killing stuff - rubbish at it, especially anything in armour was highly unlikely - it didn't help that these "close combat masters" only hit most opponents on a 4+. I gave up and stuck to Incubi - at least they can kill things.

Oh dear, don't open that can of worms please. OP played a 6th meta riddled with vehicles, so 6xHaywire Wyches was a must! Yup! Really helps vs daemons, Eldar, Bike Marines, Hell Drakes, Psybolt spam/psyflemen and Tau. He still thinks I played 6th edition with only Blasterborns, but hey.. Atleast the T5 2+ save Oblits are a terrible unit when compared to the Lascanon Havocs..
Yeah, I've seen enough.

Poly Ranger wrote:

 ace101 wrote:
SM Honor Guard (only one i can think of)
- fairly cheapish for 5 [EDIT: Min size is 3 for more points pinching.]
- Comes with bolter w/ the PW and BP to help with Anti-infantry shooting
- Can mix and match power weapons to be versatile against several different threats (barring the TH and RBs).
- Comes with a Chapter Master at no-slot cost (allowing for a chaplain/librarian [Ergo a command squad too])
- 2+ armor means any fire directed at terminators/centurions might get directed to these guys

With you on this! Awsome for their price tag. As long as you can get them into assault and build a list around/to help them they can easily be worth their points.

Agreed. I think since the 6th Ed C:SM these guys have to be the best cargo for a SM Land Raider assault. More attacks/wounds per point than Termies, better Save and shooting than Vanguard, and at only 25ppm? Brilliant stuff. Throw in a Chaplain for those lovely re-rolls and a banner for the extra attacks and you're hacking through almost anything!

Wytches are underrated because people fail to grasp a simple factor of assault.

You don't need to be great at it, you just need to be better than the guy on the other side, when prices are compared.

And given that they are pretty cheap, and better than most things in their price zone in CC, they make valuable units.

After all, once they hit CC, they got a 4++, and quite possibly FnP. even with mere T3, its enough to block out the damage of most simple infantry in the game, and with 3 hidden weapons in a team, the can deliver good damage to other light infantry.

As long you treat them as what they are, rather than what you want them to be-cheapish light assault troopers to kill other light infantry-they do a fair job.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Wytches - Underrated. Everyone thinks they're bad without having actually tried them out. And those who take a risk suddenly realize that PfP makes them quite worthy mellee fighters.

Not bothering with 7th ed but in 6th I tried them a lot and they were awful at melee - they could on a good day survive it quite well but actually killing stuff - rubbish at it, especially anything in armour was highly unlikely - it didn't help that these "close combat masters" only hit most opponents on a 4+. I gave up and stuck to Incubi - at least they can kill things.

Have you tried them in 7?

 BoomWolf wrote:
Wytches are underrated because people fail to grasp a simple factor of assault.

You don't need to be great at it, you just need to be better than the guy on the other side, when prices are compared.

And given that they are pretty cheap, and better than most things in their price zone in CC, they make valuable units.

After all, once they hit CC, they got a 4++, and quite possibly FnP. even with mere T3, its enough to block out the damage of most simple infantry in the game, and with 3 hidden weapons in a team, the can deliver good damage to other light infantry.

As long you treat them as what they are, rather than what you want them to be-cheapish light assault troopers to kill other light infantry-they do a fair job.

I want them to match the fluff - so no I am not at all happy with them. I would rather they were more expensive and good - or at least have the Hekatrixes be something or a bridge between them and the Succubus stats. Please note I don't want them as haywire grenade carriers either.

Have you tried them in 7?

I am not playing 7th Ed - the Dark Eldar Codex in two parts for £60 nailed shut that coffin.

On the OP - I have always enjoyed using my Incubi which matched the fluff pretty much

 Mr Morden wrote:


I want them to match the fluff - so no I am not at all happy with them. I would rather they were more expensive and good - or at least have the Hekatrixes be something or a bridge between them and the Succubus stats. Please note I don't want them as haywire grenade carriers either.

Have you tried them in 7?

I am not playing 7th Ed - the Dark Eldar Codex in two parts for £60 nailed shut that coffin.

On the OP - I have always enjoyed using my Incubi which matched the fluff pretty much

Yeah, the nerfs and changes to Wyches and Hellions was uncalled for.. IDK why GW hates assault units, lol.

 vipoid wrote:

Remember kids - if there's a fact you don't like, just go into denial until reality itself warps around you.

It worked for Horus and Genma Saotome.

I'm going to add something that I think a lot of people have misconceptions on - Splinter weaponry. Not necessarily a unit, but still - people think its some amazing anti-infantry weaponry, when its not - against GEQ its S3 AP-, against T4 its a bolter with no ap. You really only start seeing some good return against T5 or higher, and against MC's the weight of fire can bring them down cheaper than other armies can, but at the end of the day it's not top tier anti-infantry at all, being more specialised against elite units to even be worthwhile. I do appreciate the weight of fire on Venoms and the like, but even 6 squads of Warriors with Splinter Rifles firing in rapid fire range (where the Venom never wants to be) are only going to kill 5 marines. The warriors are very unlikely to ever make their points back, if I had to name one overrated unit its Warriors. Although, now you don't really have a choice anymore lol.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I'm going to add something that I think a lot of people have misconceptions on - Splinter weaponry. Not necessarily a unit, but still - people think its some amazing anti-infantry weaponry, when its not - against GEQ its S3 AP-, against T4 its a bolter with no ap. You really only start seeing some good return against T5 or higher, and against MC's the weight of fire can bring them down cheaper than other armies can, but at the end of the day it's not top tier anti-infantry at all, being more specialised against elite units to even be worthwhile. I do appreciate the weight of fire on Venoms and the like, but even 6 squads of Warriors with Splinter Rifles firing in rapid fire range (where the Venom never wants to be) are only going to kill 5 marines. The warriors are very unlikely to ever make their points back, if I had to name one overrated unit its Warriors. Although, now you don't really have a choice anymore lol.

Just a minor point, but against GEQ it's S3 AP5. I bring this up simply because most GEQ units only have 5+ saves, so the AP does matter.

Regardless, I agree with your overall point.

Although, I think what people miss is what we seemingly exchange for all that poison shooting - in that we get very little in the way of special or heavy weapons. I mean, Warriors get to choose between:
- A Dark Lance
- Another Dark Lance
- Some overpriced splinter shots
- A poor-man's flamer

What we don't get is stuff like plasmaguns - which are also good against things like MCs and bikers, but are also useful against other targets as well. Or, anything like Autocannons or Assault Cannons on our vehicles - weapons that can pull double-duty against MCs, bikers and light transports.

I mean, would SM players celebrate if GW knocked 12" of their lascannons and took away their autocannons, their plasma cannons, their assault cannons, their meltas, their multi-meltas, their heavy flamers (they can keep their normal flamers), their plasmaguns, their grav guns, their grav cannons, their missile launchers etc. and replaced them with an assault Lascannon (with 18" range) and poison 4+ bolters? Since we're being generous, squads can purchase Hurricane Bolters as Heavy Weapons, and their vehicles can choose between Lascannons and Heavy bolters.


One other aspect is that, for a race with so much poison, we seem to get some really awful poisons. I mean, Sternguard can get 2+ poison (along with several other types of ammunition) for their bolters, yet the DE (who have practically built their economy around poison and murder) can only get 4+ poison.

Sorry, you are right i kinda rushed the statement a bit. Just trying to get the thread back on track with something I've thought for a while.


I'm not complaining about my army, but as a DE player, I think our firepower is severely overrated especially when I see people describing DE as "the army that can table you by turn 2, but otherwise fall to bits" well then I guess we fall to bits every game if this was true. I have played DE competitively for a significant period of time, and although I play them a lot less than my Nids, I do have a positive win ratio with them, but have never once had a turn 2 victory to my knowledge, and I think turn 3 victories were few and far inbetween and mostly against highly ineffecient list. The firepower is NOT that badass at all, although you can get forward and apply it fast, I feel like people really misunderstand DE at a surface level and that we are much more about making smart decisions and drawing a game out while kiting and knowing how hard to push and where. I think they are definitely the strategists army, and I am not complaining about power level or anything, I just think that the army as a whole is largely misunderstood (I've seen some who get it tho).

I REALLY don't understand the "win turn 2 or die" mentality with DE
It might have been true last codex, but this codex your units are literally better as the game progresses.

If anything, with DE I'd think of a strategy revolving avoiding the enemy early on, and take him on the latter turns when the PFP is all charged up and units start becoming very cost-efficient.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I REALLY don't understand the "win turn 2 or die" mentality with DE

It might have been true last codex, but this codex your units are literally better as the game progresses.

If anything, with DE I'd think of a strategy revolving avoiding the enemy early on, and take him on the latter turns when the PFP is all charged up and units start becoming very cost-efficient.

Honestly, even with the old book, win on turn 2 seems a bit... optimistic.

I mean, my general impression was that I never had the firepower to do that kind of damage. I think my goal would more be 'take out a few key threats by turn 2'.


With regard to the new book, I agree that it's probably better to avoid the enemy initially (if possible), though I'm not sure that was the best representation of DE. I more imagine them as blitzing out of the webway - not emerging and then hiding behind some ruins until they've each drunk 3 bottles of liquid-pain.

vipoid nailed exactly what i was already typing. We had the range and speed and firepower to deal with elite units, its basically designed to take out key threats early on and never overcommitting.

Keep in mind this is only my own opinions based off my personal experience as someone who has played Tau for a very long time in a very strange meta.

1. Railgun Hammerheads (hammerheads in general): Underrated. I don't know why people complain about Tau having trouble with AV 14 or saying "your only option is deep striking fusion blaster suits", then bash the railgun hammerhead. Especially with Longstrike that thing is a death machine to pretty much anything with an AV that isn't a superheavy. Sure, it costs more than a suicide fusion blaster suit, but it might actually live to kill multiple vehicles. Plus it has the submunitions on the railgun to help clear infantry so it's not totally useless against a horde, unlike fusion suits. (for the record I use both longstrike and fusion suits in most of my lists).

2. Riptide: Overrated. I'm guessing this one is going to get a few raised eyebrows, but especially since 7th edition it is just not that great as anything other than a brick unless you put crazy amounts of support in your list specifically to feed the riptide. I'll write out my argument in full for this because it's pretty controversial I admit.

Let's look at the Ion Accelerator. That's why you're playing the riptide (if you're using the heavy burst cannon might I kindly recommend either a squad of fire warriors and an Ethereal or a squad of broadsides). It is a pretty awesome weapon, but it is a gets hot blast template on a BS 3 model. Someone did the math and on average a blast from a BS 3 model will scatter 2.7 inches (when you translate this to real dice results, you will get 3 or more inches of scatter over half the time). A large blast template is 5" across. That means over half the time you won't be hitting whatever you put the template on top of. Over half the time... Counting in gets hot you've got a weapon that actually does what you want it to do (hit a bunched up squad of 2+ armor save dudes) less than 40% of the time. I don't like paying 225 points for less than a coin flip chance of doing what I want.

Markerlights. Yes, they do help out the riptide. Yes, a BS 6 riptide with ignores cover is amazing. However, that requires 5 markerlight tokens (3 if you can live without ignores cover, but I have found that the shot is almost wasted if you let the opponent get a cover save. It's the biggest gun you have.) That is 10 pathfinders or 15 marker drones, or 6 marker drones and a commander (and if you are using that last option may I ask why you are devoting an HQ slot and 100 points to this particular task). So basically, you are using your entire army's allotment of markerlights to feed one riptide when you could instead be feeding, say, three squads of fire warriors with an ethereal, or two broadside squads, or a whole fleet of dual plasma crisis suits.

The durability is the elephant in the room in this particular discussion. I will admit the riptide is one of the hardest things to kill out there. However, it is not super scoring, and it has no close combat ability, and it costs way too many points just to be a tarpit.

Moral of the story: I think Riptides are overrated in 7th. They were terrifying in 6th when support was more readily available, but I don't want to devote my entire army's compliment of support to making sure my Riptide can actually kill something this turn.

I don't actually have a 3rd.

 dementedwombat wrote:

Let's look at the Ion Accelerator. That's why you're playing the riptide (if you're using the heavy burst cannon might I kindly recommend either a squad of fire warriors and an Ethereal or a squad of broadsides). It is a pretty awesome weapon, but it is a gets hot blast template on a BS 3 model. Someone did the math and on average a blast from a BS 3 model will scatter 2.7 inches (when you translate this to real dice results, you will get 3 or more inches of scatter over half the time). A large blast template is 5" across. That means over half the time you won't be hitting whatever you put the template on top of. Over half the time... Counting in gets hot you've got a weapon that actually does what you want it to do (hit a bunched up squad of 2+ armor save dudes) less than 40% of the time. I don't like paying 225 points for less than a coin flip chance of doing what I want.

Don't forget hit hits dead on 1/3rd of the time. BS3 with a 5" template means that, if you include the BS subtraction for scatter and 1/3 hit rate, you're still hitting your original target (whatever the hole was centered over will still be touching the edge of the template) about 52% of the time, it's actually slightly better than a BS3 straight-shot. If it's a big target like an MC or a tank or a unit with a large table footprint, you're probably still hitting it with the template nearly 75% of the time.

Totally agree on the Hammerheads though, paying less than 150pts for a tank with an S10 gun that can toss out S6 pieplates and with frontal AV13 and can jink for a 3+ cover save, with a 4 shot TL'd S5 "lol-no-LoS-no-cover" secondary armament is astoundingly solid.

Railgun hammerhead is not underrated.

With how hard it is to land an explosive result, even with AP1, that one shot is just not enough to be reliable unless longstrike is involved.

even assuming markers to get BS5 and ignore cover, you are still looking at a mere 9.2% to actually kill an AV14 target with a that shot.
It cannot be relied upon.


Now, as a supplemantry AT unit that also has submunnitions to be a supplementry AI unit, the odds are good enough, as once you got more AT around, even minor hullpointing and occasional disabling matters.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Don't forget hit hits dead on 1/3rd of the time. BS3 with a 5" template means that, if you include the BS subtraction for scatter and 1/3 hit rate, you're still hitting your original target (whatever the hole was centered over will still be touching the edge of the template) about 52% of the time, it's actually slightly better than a BS3 straight-shot. If it's a big target like an MC or a tank or a unit with a large table footprint, you're probably still hitting it with the template nearly 75% of the time.

Totally agree on the Hammerheads though, paying less than 150pts for a tank with an S10 gun that can toss out S6 pieplates and with frontal AV13 and can jink for a 3+ cover save, with a 4 shot TL'd S5 "lol-no-LoS-no-cover" secondary armament is astoundingly solid.

Math counted in the chance of rolling a hit. I probably should have specified that more clearly. I verified this myself. If you don't include hits you get something closer to 4" average scatter.

Also if you are buying the riptide to take out tanks or MCs (and are using the template shot to do it) then you are probably not using the right tool in the box. That's my stance on it anyway. Tau codex is an amazing arsenal of guns for every occasion so you really should try to take things that cover the biggest possible range of threats, or else are the best at dealing with what you expect to face if you know your most likely army match-ups.

The IA is good (well, designed for. Maybe not "good") at killing exactly 1 thing: clumped up squads of 2+ armor save dudes without cover and preferably without invulnerable saves (which is, off the top of my head, Ork Meganobz and maybe Broadsides if you can get them out of cover). Anything else, there is a much more effective option to kill it that probably costs less points than the Riptide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Railgun hammerhead is not underrated.

With how hard it is to land an explosive result, even with AP1, that one shot is just not enough to be reliable unless longstrike is involved.

even assuming markers to get BS5 and ignore cover, you are still looking at a mere 9.2% to actually kill an AV14 target with a that shot.
It cannot be relied upon.


Now, as a supplemantry AT unit that also has submunnitions to be a supplementry AI unit, the odds are good enough, as once you got more AT around, even minor hullpointing and occasional disabling matters.

With Longstrike that goes up to 25% chance to explode AV14. Also, let's be honest here, what can you actually "rely upon" to kill AV 14 in 1 round? Even melta suits need 2-3 on target and in melta range (with all the accompanying deep strike risks.) to feel good about the odds. I use both in my lists, but I don't think of it as "primary/secondary". I think of it as a more reliable durable platform that will perform turn after turn accompanied by a more risky option that can potentially trade way above their points cost and then die the next turn. Either are ok, both together are better.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Keep in mind this is only my own opinions based off my personal experience as someone who has played Tau for a very long time in a very strange meta.
.

A "strange" meta would only make a Riptide better. A single Ion Cannon ignoring cover is better than more Fire Warriors because of superior range, mobility, and killing power.

 dementedwombat wrote:

1. Railgun Hammerheads (hammerheads in general): Underrated. I don't know why people complain about Tau having trouble with AV 14 or saying "your only option is deep striking fusion blaster suits", then bash the railgun hammerhead. Especially with Longstrike that thing is a death machine to pretty much anything with an AV that isn't a superheavy. Sure, it costs more than a suicide fusion blaster suit, but it might actually live to kill multiple vehicles. Plus it has the submunitions on the railgun to help clear infantry so it's not totally useless against a horde, unlike fusion suits. (for the record I use both longstrike and fusion suits in most of my lists).

Out of interest, how do people think Hammerheads compare to Leman Russ Vanquishers with Lascannons?

Just curious.

 dementedwombat wrote:

2. Riptide: Overrated. I'm guessing this one is going to get a few raised eyebrows, but especially since 7th edition it is just not that great as anything other than a brick unless you put crazy amounts of support in your list specifically to feed the riptide. I'll write out my argument in full for this because it's pretty controversial I admit.

Let's look at the Ion Accelerator. That's why you're playing the riptide (if you're using the heavy burst cannon might I kindly recommend either a squad of fire warriors and an Ethereal or a squad of broadsides). It is a pretty awesome weapon, but it is a gets hot blast template on a BS 3 model. Someone did the math and on average a blast from a BS 3 model will scatter 2.7 inches (when you translate this to real dice results, you will get 3 or more inches of scatter over half the time). A large blast template is 5" across. That means over half the time you won't be hitting whatever you put the template on top of. Over half the time... Counting in gets hot you've got a weapon that actually does what you want it to do (hit a bunched up squad of 2+ armor save dudes) less than 40% of the time. I don't like paying 225 points for less than a coin flip chance of doing what I want.

Markerlights. Yes, they do help out the riptide. Yes, a BS 6 riptide with ignores cover is amazing. However, that requires 5 markerlight tokens (3 if you can live without ignores cover, but I have found that the shot is almost wasted if you let the opponent get a cover save. It's the biggest gun you have.) That is 10 pathfinders or 15 marker drones, or 6 marker drones and a commander (and if you are using that last option may I ask why you are devoting an HQ slot and 100 points to this particular task). So basically, you are using your entire army's allotment of markerlights to feed one riptide when you could instead be feeding, say, three squads of fire warriors with an ethereal, or two broadside squads, or a whole fleet of dual plasma crisis suits.

The durability is the elephant in the room in this particular discussion. I will admit the riptide is one of the hardest things to kill out there. However, it is not super scoring, and it has no close combat ability, and it costs way too many points just to be a tarpit.

If you include the support, then it is expensive. However, what you're effectively getting is a weapon that can reliably delete virtually any infantry squad in the game from 36" away (measuring from the markerlights).

Also, even without the support, it hardly seems bad. I mean, compare a Riptide with Ion Accelerator it to the Leman Russ Executioner (which effectively has 3 plasma cannons as its main weapon). You're paying 30 more points, but you get:
- Night Vision
- Twice the range of main weapon
- No Gets Hot (at least on the Heavy 3 version)
- Swaps Heavy Bolter for TL Smart Missile System
- JSJ (to either get cover or avoid melee)
- Considerably more durably chassis (Including immunity to crew shaken, stunned, immobilised, weapon destroyed)
- Can be tied up in melee, but is still a MC and so can fight back. Plus, it is just as tough in melee - whilst anything in melee with the Russ hits the vulnerable rear armour.

Am I missing something?

 dementedwombat wrote:


The durability is the elephant in the room in this particular discussion. I will admit the riptide is one of the hardest things to kill out there.

It's not.

S3 will put wounds on it, melta and lascan will go through the 2+, it can't handle any assault, takes instant death, poison, etc. and if it's rolling nova invul save every turn it's probably not worth its points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
However, what you're effectively getting is a weapon that can reliably delete virtually any infantry squad in the game from 36" away

So you're EFFECTIVELY getting a weapon that can RELIABLY delete VIRTUALLY any infantry squad in the game ?

Where does that leave us precisely ?

And who the feth cares about an infantry squad. That weapon is the equivalent of say 3 plasma blasts ? 2 maybe ? don't tell me you're playing the one army that doesn't have access to that.

You are having this argument in three different threads at once. Stop spamming morgoth.

morgoth wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
However, what you're effectively getting is a weapon that can reliably delete virtually any infantry squad in the game from 36" away

So you're EFFECTIVELY getting a weapon that can RELIABLY delete VIRTUALLY any infantry squad in the game ?

Where does that leave us precisely ?

I said "effectively" because I was counting the Riptide Ion Accelerator and Markerlights as a single weapon (since their cost was being bunched together).

"Reliably" because a rerollable BS6 Large Blast seems pretty damn reliable.

"Virtually" because S8 AP2 Ignores Cover is enough to wipe out *most* units. However, there are a few infantry units who do have some protection against it (e.g. this is one instance where the Thousand Sons 4++ save would be really useful) - hence I said "virtually" any infantry squad.

morgoth wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:


The durability is the elephant in the room in this particular discussion. I will admit the riptide is one of the hardest things to kill out there.

It's not.

S3 will put wounds on it, melta and lascan will go through the 2+, it can't handle any assault, takes instant death, poison, etc. and if it's rolling nova invul save every turn it's probably not worth its points.

S3 isn't putting very many wounds on it. Yeah, in theory it can happen, but against a barebones Riptide you'll need an average of 72 lasgun shots to average 1 wound that sticks, 108 if it's got FNP. As for assaults, it's WS and Init are crappy, but 3 S6 attacks that ignore armor also isn't anything to sneeze at, against anything that lacks a high S AP2 weapon, the Riptide stands a decent chance of winning combat against lots of units (usually by inflicting one wound and taking none back and forcing an fallback test on a 7 or 8 for most units).

Yeah, melta and lascannons go through on a 2+, they also functionally hurt Wave Serpents on similar scores (the melta a little more effectively the lascannon a little less effectively), also, funnily enough, if we're talking meltaguns, statistically it takes fewer meltaguns to kill an AV14 4HP Land Raider that's 250pts than a 185pt barebones riptide (and about 4x as many to kill a 3++ shielded FNP Riptide...). The the invul helps, and even if its nova charging that invul, that saves games in and of itself. Pretty consistently, the most complained about units are also amongst the most survivable or difficult to negate, not simply those that are exceedingly killy. Having a riptide standing in the middle of the board being an imminent threat to just about anything and forcing itself to be dealt with and shrugging off gigantic amounts of firepower has won more than one game.

One will notice that the majority of units that typically see lots of complaints are not simply the killiest units, but those that are either highly resilient or killy and highly resilient. The Wave Serpent being another excellent example.

Any single model under 200 points that takes the majority of an entire 1500 point army to take down... it too resilient.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Any single model under 200 points that takes the majority of an entire 1500 point army to take down... it too resilient.

morgoth wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:


The durability is the elephant in the room in this particular discussion. I will admit the riptide is one of the hardest things to kill out there.

It's not.

S3 will put wounds on it, melta and lascan will go through the 2+, it can't handle any assault, takes instant death, poison, etc. and if it's rolling nova invul save every turn it's probably not worth its points.

Tell me a unit for <200 points that has better survivability than a Riptide. You won't.

 SHUPPET wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:


The durability is the elephant in the room in this particular discussion. I will admit the riptide is one of the hardest things to kill out there.

It's not.

S3 will put wounds on it, melta and lascan will go through the 2+, it can't handle any assault, takes instant death, poison, etc. and if it's rolling nova invul save every turn it's probably not worth its points.

Tell me a unit for <200 points that has better survivability than a Riptide. You won't.

Saint Celestine?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Saint Celestine?

Not any more.

If it was back in 5th, when she could never be permanently killed, then I'd probably agree.

 vipoid wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Saint Celestine?

Not any more.

If it was back in 5th, when she could never be permanently killed, then I'd probably agree.

Those rules were hilarious, she'd get back up, flame, charge, die. Revive, flame, charge. Revive, flame charge. Pretty sure she could take on nearly any army just by being more stubborn then Necrons.

Well, technically if the game ends before you choose to activate Miraculous Intervention, she hasn't died... you have to be a bit of a Richard to do it, but this is a staple of the "Deny Slay the Warlord" tactic.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Tell me a unit for <200 points that has better survivability than a Riptide. You won't.

Against what ?

That's the thing, you're always talking survivability and whatnot, but you have no idea of what it's survivable against.

Is it better than 200 points of vehicle against AV weapons ? yes it is because it's not a vehicle.
Is it more survivable than 200 points of vehicle against Plasma ? I think not.
Is it more survivable than 200 points of vehicle against 4 Punishers or equivalent ? I think not.

Etc.

You should try making your statement a bit more precise, like "very survivable in a meta with Tau:farsight bomb, AM/DA with paskisher, centurionstar,screamerstar,ws spam", and then it would maybe hold some meaning.

For 200 points, I take two packs of 33 conscripts, max unit coherency distance, that's 66 raw HP plus cover save, compared to the Riptides 36 raw HP including it's 2+ save. Yes it's a lot more survivable than a Riptide (even if it's not a legal troop choice).

morgoth wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Tell me a unit for <200 points that has better survivability than a Riptide. You won't.

Against what ?

That's the thing, you're always talking survivability and whatnot, but you have no idea of what it's survivable against.

Is it better than 200 points of vehicle against AV weapons ? yes it is because it's not a vehicle.
Is it more survivable than 200 points of vehicle against Plasma ? I think not.
Is it more survivable than 200 points of vehicle against 4 Punishers or equivalent ? I think not.

Etc.

You should try making your statement a bit more precise, like "very survivable in a meta with Tau:farsight bomb, AM/DA with paskisher, centurionstar,screamerstar,ws spam", and then it would maybe hold some meaning.

For 200 points, I take two packs of 33 conscripts, max unit coherency distance, that's 66 raw HP plus cover save, compared to the Riptides 36 raw HP including it's 2+ save. Yes it's a lot more survivable than a Riptide (even if it's not a legal troop choice).

I was prepared to take this seriously til you said 'not a legal troops choice'. I'm sure there's lots of things more survivable than a Riptide when used illegally...

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Any single model under 200 points that takes the majority of an entire 1500 point army to take down... it too resilient.

So you build an army entirely around the idea to not shoot down a Riptide, then complain because you can't shoot it down ?

Try with an army designed to shoot one down, then move from there to a TAC list, and you'll have learned something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I was prepared to take this seriously til you said 'not a legal troops choice'. I'm sure there's lots of things more survivable than a Riptide when used illegally...

Legal troop choice as AM ends up at 48 raw HP prior to any cover saves, 57.6 with a GtG (6+) cover save, 72 against weapons with AP6 or less.

morgoth wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Tell me a unit for <200 points that has better survivability than a Riptide. You won't.

Against what ?

That's the thing, you're always talking survivability and whatnot, but you have no idea of what it's survivable against.

Is it better than 200 points of vehicle against AV weapons ? yes it is because it's not a vehicle.
Is it more survivable than 200 points of vehicle against Plasma ? I think not.
Is it more survivable than 200 points of vehicle against 4 Punishers or equivalent ? I think not.

Etc.

You should try making your statement a bit more precise, like "very survivable in a meta with Tau:farsight bomb, AM/DA with paskisher, centurionstar,screamerstar,ws spam", and then it would maybe hold some meaning.

For 200 points, I take two packs of 33 conscripts, max unit coherency distance, that's 66 raw HP plus cover save, compared to the Riptides 36 raw HP including it's 2+ save. Yes it's a lot more survivable than a Riptide (even if it's not a legal troop choice).

Stop being so pedantic. Of course there are outliers of durability when it comes to XvsY.
Under most circumstances the riptide is one of the most durable options for its price range, due to its stats and great mobility.

morgoth wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Any single model under 200 points that takes the majority of an entire 1500 point army to take down... it too resilient.

So you build an army entirely around the idea to not shoot down a Riptide, then complain because you can't shoot it down ?

Try with an army designed to shoot one down, then move from there to a TAC list, and you'll have learned something.
.

... what?

No, I build an army designed to take on anything it comes up against, and in order to take on a Riptide, I have to spend an entire shooting phase to kill it. Edit upon consideration: probably two shooting phases.

Not to mention the fact that an army designed to kill a Riptide is going to struggle against armour, infantry or flier lists...

I mean, sure. I know my opponent is going to be spamming Riptides? I'll just run Dual Repentia + Priests in Inq. Land Raiders. The riptides won't last three turns. Take that army against a Guard... well, anything, and I'll be dead in the water.

Do try to stop assuming that everyone disagreeing with you is a newbie or an idiot, Morgoth. It only works against you.

 vipoid wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:

2. Riptide: Overrated. I'm guessing this one is going to get a few raised eyebrows, but especially since 7th edition it is just not that great as anything other than a brick unless you put crazy amounts of support in your list specifically to feed the riptide. I'll write out my argument in full for this because it's pretty controversial I admit.

Let's look at the Ion Accelerator. That's why you're playing the riptide (if you're using the heavy burst cannon might I kindly recommend either a squad of fire warriors and an Ethereal or a squad of broadsides). It is a pretty awesome weapon, but it is a gets hot blast template on a BS 3 model. Someone did the math and on average a blast from a BS 3 model will scatter 2.7 inches (when you translate this to real dice results, you will get 3 or more inches of scatter over half the time). A large blast template is 5" across. That means over half the time you won't be hitting whatever you put the template on top of. Over half the time... Counting in gets hot you've got a weapon that actually does what you want it to do (hit a bunched up squad of 2+ armor save dudes) less than 40% of the time. I don't like paying 225 points for less than a coin flip chance of doing what I want.

Markerlights. Yes, they do help out the riptide. Yes, a BS 6 riptide with ignores cover is amazing. However, that requires 5 markerlight tokens (3 if you can live without ignores cover, but I have found that the shot is almost wasted if you let the opponent get a cover save. It's the biggest gun you have.) That is 10 pathfinders or 15 marker drones, or 6 marker drones and a commander (and if you are using that last option may I ask why you are devoting an HQ slot and 100 points to this particular task). So basically, you are using your entire army's allotment of markerlights to feed one riptide when you could instead be feeding, say, three squads of fire warriors with an ethereal, or two broadside squads, or a whole fleet of dual plasma crisis suits.

The durability is the elephant in the room in this particular discussion. I will admit the riptide is one of the hardest things to kill out there. However, it is not super scoring, and it has no close combat ability, and it costs way too many points just to be a tarpit.

If you include the support, then it is expensive. However, what you're effectively getting is a weapon that can reliably delete virtually any infantry squad in the game from 36" away (measuring from the markerlights).

Also, even without the support, it hardly seems bad. I mean, compare a Riptide with Ion Accelerator it to the Leman Russ Executioner (which effectively has 3 plasma cannons as its main weapon). You're paying 30 more points, but you get:
- Night Vision
- Twice the range of main weapon
- No Gets Hot (at least on the Heavy 3 version)
- Swaps Heavy Bolter for TL Smart Missile System
- JSJ (to either get cover or avoid melee)
- Considerably more durably chassis (Including immunity to crew shaken, stunned, immobilised, weapon destroyed)
- Can be tied up in melee, but is still a MC and so can fight back. Plus, it is just as tough in melee - whilst anything in melee with the Russ hits the vulnerable rear armour.

Am I missing something?

Nope, the ion accelerator is as broken as it gets. nearly as absurd as the serpent shield.

Can we agree that the Riptide is not underated and move on ?

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Under most circumstances the riptide is one of the most durable options for its price range, due to its stats and great mobility.

Under Big Blind Bill's most (undefined) circumstances, the riptide is (now) one of the most durable options for its price range (and not the most durable anymore), due to its stats and (not so) great mobility.

Space Marine Scouts - Underrated! I've only played with these guys a couple of times, but I've loved them every time. There are just so many tactical uses. Being able to Outflank and come in behind a Wave Serpent and rapid fire in its rear armour (even if it's just glancing), sneaking around as a low-priority target securing Maelstrom points, Linebreaker etc.,

Wraithknights - Overrated. Except for when they get into combat with my knight I've rarely seen them make their points back.

Flyers in general - Overrated. How many flyers really make up such a big threat that I can't just ignore them? Yet I see so many people dedicate a considerable point investment in including Anti-Air in their lists (I know this is to combat FMC's too, but flyers are often mentioned as a threat)

 Furyou Miko wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Any single model under 200 points that takes the majority of an entire 1500 point army to take down... it too resilient.

So you build an army entirely around the idea to not shoot down a Riptide, then complain because you can't shoot it down ?

Try with an army designed to shoot one down, then move from there to a TAC list, and you'll have learned something.
.

... what?

No, I build an army designed to take on anything it comes up against, and in order to take on a Riptide, I have to spend an entire shooting phase to kill it. Edit upon consideration: probably two shooting phases.

Not to mention the fact that an army designed to kill a Riptide is going to struggle against armour, infantry or flier lists...

I mean, sure. I know my opponent is going to be spamming Riptides? I'll just run Dual Repentia + Priests in Inq. Land Raiders. The riptides won't last three turns. Take that army against a Guard... well, anything, and I'll be dead in the water.

Do try to stop assuming that everyone disagreeing with you is a newbie or an idiot, Morgoth. It only works against you.

How is it possible that an army designed to take on anything it comes up against, including a Riptide, cannot handle it ?

Oh. right. now you'd like that your 1500 point army deals as much damage in shooting as 1500 points of Riptides and you're disappointed (that's about what it takes to kill one Riptide with Riptides).

So basically, your TAC is not TAC enough and your opinion that your 1500 point TAC army should be able to one-phase a Riptide is wrong.

Unless you're one of the best pure shooting army with a pure shooting list, it's not going to happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 adamsouza wrote:
Can we agree that the Riptide is not underated and move on ?

I think he said overrated.

The Riptide is probably overrated, just like everything that's really good that people make into exaggerated legends, like that lone WraithKnight that killed a whole 2500 points army by itself, and that Wave Serpent that won all tournaments from the beginning of time to over 9000, etc.

That being said, it's probably not *that* much overrated, I think it's an excellent unit, just like the WK or the WS.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

GrafWattenburg wrote:

Wraithknights - Overrated. Except for when they get into combat with my knight I've rarely seen them make their points back.

What knight ?

morgoth wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

GrafWattenburg wrote:

Wraithknights - Overrated. Except for when they get into combat with my knight I've rarely seen them make their points back.

What knight ?

My Imperial Knight Errant, should have specified that with all the knight-talk Maybe its just been the dice gods not being on my team, as I know I have a chance to stomp the Wraithknight or kill it with the D-weapon, i just haven't ever managed to. (Anecdotal and not really evidence of either unit's value, I know)

morgoth wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Under most circumstances the riptide is one of the most durable options for its price range, due to its stats and great mobility.

Under Big Blind Bill's most (undefined) circumstances, the riptide is (now) one of the most durable options for its price range (and not the most durable anymore), due to its stats and (not so) great mobility.

As I said, stop being so pedantic. Look in a dictionary if you did not understand. 'One of the most durable' covers this situation perfectly. If you want to waste time thinking of and writing a thesis on the the analysis of warhammer durability, by all means go ahead, but it is unnecessary.

The (now) comment makes no sense. The riptide has always been durable for its price. This might be new information for you though. Did valiantly defending waveserpents narrow your vision?

I never said it was the most durable. I am not the original poster who claimed this. Please stop attacking the person and focus on the topic. Tilting at windmills.

Not the fastest mobility in the game for sure, but tactically powerful. Are you really claiming JSJ is not that great? Maybe your game boards do not have much LoS blocking terrain.

Well, the riptide being very durable for its price only holds true under the assumption of the ion accelerator.

HBC riptides tend to be self-destructive.

Off the record, you don't see how bringing up the HBC Riptide in these discussions is intellectually dishonest?

No, because the point of the matter is that the riptide itself is not game-braking (its a good unit, but a fair one), but the IA upgrade that is game-braking.

The HBCtide and IAtide are very different units in terms of abilities, uses, power level and fairness.

Piling the two as one unit is akin to piling the hades heldrake with the "my next goes everywhere" era baleflamer heldrake, one is powerful but fair, the other absurdly game-braking.



I don't like the notion that many people go by that "if the unit CAN be overpowered, it IS overpowered", often its not the unit itself that causes the problem, but a spesific option or combination of options avilable (and often unique) to it, and once said options are properly priced or brought into line the entire unit stabilizes on its own.

That's an extremely pedantic argument to make when the overpowered item in general is unit-specific (meaning it can ONLY be taken by that unit) and it only costs 5 points, thus no one in the history of the World has ever not taken it as an upgrade unless they were deliberately trying to not butt-feth their opponent.

But then you can apply that logic to anything else. Is the Wave Serpent overpowered, or is it just the serpent shield? Just because serpent shield comes stock on it doesn't mean that players are forced to use it, right? Pretty much any unit that's ever been considered overpowered or undercosted becomes less so when you separate the one overpowered quality from the rest of it.

Technically true, but still a silly and pedantic argument to make, especially in a discussion where the context of what people are talking about is obvious.

That said, the BBC Riptide still has jet-pack movement, T6 and a 2+ save, which does make it far more durable than its cost should allow.

I will say on the Leman Russ Vanquisher argument, having 3 small blasts is much more preferable than having one big one to me, because it really helps the odds of some of your shots getting on target. BS3 blasts are pretty bad as I mentioned in my original post (or at least pretty bad when the obvious intent of the weapon is to kill 2+ save infantry, which usually come in very small squads and are pretty clumped up when you try to shoot at them, at least in my experience).

Markerlights do turn it into an amazing weapon of death and mayhem, but if you include marker-lights you have to consider the other things you could be using them for. Example: for ~180 points you could get a squad of 3 dual plasma crisis suits. That is 6 shots at 24" that still wound on 2s and ignore armor against most things you would want to shoot the IA at. So 5 hits, that's about equivalent to what you can squeeze under a blast template best case scenario. It's matching the IA on killing potential without even being in rapid fire range.

That does bring up the subject of range. Since we are considering markerlights in this discussion (see my first post for why markerlights are necessary with the IA) then your IA range is effectively 36". Probably less since your markerlights are most likely farther back than your Riptide on any game turn that is not 1. That is a pretty dang big deal.

I'm not trying to say the IA is bad, although I probably gave that impression earlier. I was most likely over-reacting. Don't get that argument confused. I'm saying we have better weapon options for what the IA is designed to shoot at (which, honestly, is pretty insane to think about.) due to the limitations a BS3 platform puts on a weapon that wants to be shooting blast templates. Thus the only reason you're buying a Riptide as a platform is durability, or speed if you really use the "super thrust" nova reactor option (which I have and it is glorious, but maybe not the best choice a lot of the time, especially since it isn't super scoring).

In essence, you have a pretty awesome weapon on a pretty dang durable platform that utilizes it badly because of a bad BS. You also have fairly fragile support options to make it utilize the amazing weapon amazingly. I would really rather have a less durable platform that utilizes less awesome weapons better without support.

Then again, I play my Tau like old school Dark Eldar. 75+% of my army is 12-15" away from the opponent ASAP. It's amazingly fun and works reasonably well.

GrafWattenburg wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

GrafWattenburg wrote:

Wraithknights - Overrated. Except for when they get into combat with my knight I've rarely seen them make their points back.

What knight ?

My Imperial Knight Errant, should have specified that with all the knight-talk Maybe its just been the dice gods not being on my team, as I know I have a chance to stomp the Wraithknight or kill it with the D-weapon, i just haven't ever managed to. (Anecdotal and not really evidence of either unit's value, I know)

Yes well, the Imperial Knight totally obliterates a Wraith Knight in combat.
From a mathematical standpoint, if you charge you kill him after he deals you 1.6 HP, if he charges you you still have 76% chance to ID him, and he will deal about 3.3HP to you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:
No, because the point of the matter is that the riptide itself is not game-braking (its a good unit, but a fair one), but the IA upgrade that is game-braking

Yes, I can see how the game moves slower because of the amount of dakka it puts out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

The (now) comment makes no sense. The riptide has always been durable for its price. This might be new information for you though. Did valiantly defending waveserpents narrow your vision?

The (now) comment refers to the fact that this argument was started with "The riptide is the most durable thing ever at its points cost" which is a load of bs.

 dementedwombat wrote:
I will say on the Leman Russ Vanquisher argument, having 3 small blasts is much more preferable than having one big one to me, because it really helps the odds of some of your shots getting on target. BS3 blasts are pretty bad as I mentioned in my original post (or at least pretty bad when the obvious intent of the weapon is to kill 2+ save infantry, which usually come in very small squads and are pretty clumped up when you try to shoot at them, at least in my experience).

This has me confused.

I thought the IA could also be fired as 3 small blasts?

You're thinking of the Wraithknight's suncannon.

The Riptide's IA can fire 3 AP2 shots (non-blasts) or one AP2 large-blast.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
That's an extremely pedantic argument to make when the overpowered item in general is unit-specific (meaning it can ONLY be taken by that unit) and it only costs 5 points, thus no one in the history of the World has ever not taken it as an upgrade unless they were deliberately trying to not butt-feth their opponent.

But then you can apply that logic to anything else. Is the Wave Serpent overpowered, or is it just the serpent shield? Just because serpent shield comes stock on it doesn't mean that players are forced to use it, right? Pretty much any unit that's ever been considered overpowered or undercosted becomes less so when you separate the one overpowered quality from the rest of it.

Technically true, but still a silly and pedantic argument to make, especially in a discussion where the context of what people are talking about is obvious.

That said, the BBC Riptide still has jet-pack movement, T6 and a 2+ save, which does make it far more durable than its cost should allow.

Multiple times proved false.
An HBC riptide, when shooting to his maximum ability (attempting a NOVA each turn for overcharge, and shooting it) will deal an average of 4.66 wounds to itself during a game, meaning he is almost killing himself with mere average rolls.
It also means his NOVA is busy actually improving his gun, so you can't afford to use the defensive powers as much, else you are stuck with lackluster firepower, as unlike the IA-the HBC has massive difference in power between nova, and non-nova profiles.


As for the Serpent you brought here, you are obviously aware of the fallacy by the fact the shield is a mandatory built-in wargear, unlike the IA
Yes, NOT taking the IA is often self-gimping, but it just further proves the fact the IA upgrade is the flaw to begin with.
The wave serpent you cant NOT buy the shield, you want the transport-you get the shield.
And yes, the shield IS the problem with it. was it actually a point-blank gun as the fluff suggest (omeone brought up it probably was supposed to be range 6 rather than 60, but something derped in the way-its actually believable) than there was no issue with the WS at all.

Its nice to say "unit X is overpowered" and "army Y is too good", but if you fail to brake it down to the factors that make said unit X, or army Y, and pinpoint the factor that causes the actual problem, than you achieved nothing, and did no real step towards actually finding the point of balance. unfortunately with the way the common crowd fails to see that point, GW does not follow this simple doctrine either, and nerfs/buffs often hit the wrong place directly because of it.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Multiple times proved false.
An HBC riptide, when shooting to his maximum ability (attempting a NOVA each turn for overcharge, and shooting it) will deal an average of 4.66 wounds to itself during a game, meaning he is almost killing himself with mere average rolls.
It also means his NOVA is busy actually improving his gun, so you can't afford to use the defensive powers as much, else you are stuck with lackluster firepower, as unlike the IA-the HBC has massive difference in power between nova, and non-nova profiles.

Irrelevant.

As for the Serpent you brought here, you are obviously aware of the fallacy by the fact the shield is a mandatory built-in wargear, unlike the IA

Already addressed. The IA is 5 points and sacrifices nothing by taking it, it is functionally a built-in wargear, and arguing otherwise is pointless semantics.

The wave serpent you cant NOT buy the shield, you want the transport-you get the shield.

But you can choose to not use it, just like you choose to not take the 5 point upgrade.

And yes, the shield IS the problem with it. was it actually a point-blank gun as the fluff suggest (omeone brought up it probably was supposed to be range 6 rather than 60, but something derped in the way-its actually believable) than there was no issue with the WS at all.

Its nice to say "unit X is overpowered" and "army Y is too good", but if you fail to brake it down to the factors that make said unit X, or army Y, and pinpoint the factor that causes the actual problem, than you achieved nothing, and did no real step towards actually finding the point of balance.

Irrelevent because "X would be be balanced if not for Y" is an irrelevent point to bring up when the discussion is on the state of X. The discussion isn't "How do we balance Riptides", the discussion is "Are Riptides overpowered?". Pointing out that "heyyyy it's not the Riptide that's unbalanced, it's the 5-point near-mandatory upgrade that every single person takes that's the problem!" is a lazy distraction attempt, and contributes nothing to the discussion.

At best, the Wave Serpent is overpowered because of the serpent shield and the Riptide is (mostly) overpowered because of the Ion Accelerator. Asserting anything else is just splitting hairs.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
You're thinking of the Wraithknight's suncannon.

The Riptide's IA can fire 3 AP2 shots (non-blasts) or one AP2 large-blast.

Ah, fair enough. I must have misread that.

morgoth wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

The (now) comment makes no sense. The riptide has always been durable for its price. This might be new information for you though. Did valiantly defending waveserpents narrow your vision?

The (now) comment refers to the fact that this argument was started with "The riptide is the most durable thing ever at its points cost" which is a load of bs.

*Sigh* Do you really believe the things you type? Or do you simply enjoy watching people try to correct the rubbish you spew forth?

If I cared enough I could make a post with a poll, draw upon dakka's collective wisdom, and prove you wrong, the exact same way others have done about your ramblings about waveserpents.

However, you have been proven wrong time and time again in the past but through ignorance, pride or stupidity you can never admit it, or change your ideas. Instead it seems to be your continued mission to derail every thread you can with your rude manners and grating communication skills. Because of this there is no point even bothering to engage with you.

As it is apparent that you won't listen to reason, yet continue to hang around here, I believe it is time something should be done.

I propose the only responses to 'morgoth posts' should be to ignore them, or congratulate him on his continued dedication to trolling and waveserpents.

*Nice trolling morgoth*

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

The (now) comment makes no sense. The riptide has always been durable for its price. This might be new information for you though. Did valiantly defending waveserpents narrow your vision?

The (now) comment refers to the fact that this argument was started with "The riptide is the most durable thing ever at its points cost" which is a load of bs.

*Sigh* Do you really believe the things you type? Or do you simply enjoy watching people try to correct the rubbish you spew forth?

If I cared enough I could make a post with a poll, draw upon dakka's collective wisdom, and prove you wrong, the exact same way others have done about your ramblings about waveserpents.

However, you have been proven wrong time and time again in the past but through ignorance, pride or stupidity you can never admit it, or change your ideas. Instead it seems to be your continued mission to derail every thread you can with your rude manners and grating communication skills. Because of this there is no point even bothering to engage with you.

As it is apparent that you won't listen to reason, yet continue to hang around here, I believe it is time something should be done.

I propose the only responses to 'morgoth posts' should be to ignore them, or congratulate him on his continued dedication to trolling and waveserpents.

*Nice trolling morgoth*

Eh, I for one don't really take anything he says seriously these days. He's good for a laugh though, if everyone knows that he's wrong then there's no real reason to get worked up about anything he says. Let fools be fools.

[quote=morgoth
How is it possible that an army designed to take on anything it comes up against, including a Riptide, cannot handle it ?

Oh. right. now you'd like that your 1500 point army deals as much damage in shooting as 1500 points of Riptides and you're disappointed (that's about what it takes to kill one Riptide with Riptides).

So basically, your TAC is not TAC enough and your opinion that your 1500 point TAC army should be able to one-phase a Riptide is wrong.

Unless you're one of the best pure shooting army with a pure shooting list, it's not going to happen.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
[quote=morgoth
How is it possible that an army designed to take on anything it comes up against, including a Riptide, cannot handle it ?

Oh. right. now you'd like that your 1500 point army deals as much damage in shooting as 1500 points of Riptides and you're disappointed (that's about what it takes to kill one Riptide with Riptides).

So basically, your TAC is not TAC enough and your opinion that your 1500 point TAC army should be able to one-phase a Riptide is wrong.

Unless you're one of the best pure shooting army with a pure shooting list, it's not going to happen.

... No. Again, you're putting words in my mouth that just aren't there. I have not once said that "I wish my army did as much damage in shooting as 1500 points of Riptides", although to be honest, 1500 points of any army should put out an equivalent amount of damage in its chosen phase as any other 1500 point army. That's called game balance. Trust me, between Exorcists and Melta-minions, my army does NOT lack killing power.

My 1500 point TAC list can take on anything. It struggles a little with fliers and requires some finesse to neutralise them, but it can and has dealt with them in the past.

Just like it has dealt with Riptides. The thing is, it takes the entire army to reliably put down the Riptide.

The Riptide has repeatedly proven itself to be the only thing encountered in regular games that can tank the hits from a tricked out Dominion squad and come back asking for more.

The fact that a single <200 point model requires an entire army (consisting of lots of Ignores cover BS4 melta and other S8 AP1 weapons, and nothing with less than massed S4) to take down makes that single model ridiculous, and there's no two ways about it.

Heaven forbid there's two of them.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Its nice to say "unit X is overpowered" and "army Y is too good", but if you fail to brake it down to the factors that make said unit X, or army Y, and pinpoint the factor that causes the actual problem, than you achieved nothing, and did no real step towards actually finding the point of balance. unfortunately with the way the common crowd fails to see that point, GW does not follow this simple doctrine either, and nerfs/buffs often hit the wrong place directly because of it.

Boom, it's "break", not "brake".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

The (now) comment makes no sense. The riptide has always been durable for its price. This might be new information for you though. Did valiantly defending waveserpents narrow your vision?

The (now) comment refers to the fact that this argument was started with "The riptide is the most durable thing ever at its points cost" which is a load of bs.

*Sigh* Do you really believe the things you type? Or do you simply enjoy watching people try to correct the rubbish you spew forth?

If I cared enough I could make a post with a poll, draw upon dakka's collective wisdom, and prove you wrong, the exact same way others have done about your ramblings about waveserpents.

However, you have been proven wrong time and time again in the past but through ignorance, pride or stupidity you can never admit it, or change your ideas. Instead it seems to be your continued mission to derail every thread you can with your rude manners and grating communication skills. Because of this there is no point even bothering to engage with you.

As it is apparent that you won't listen to reason, yet continue to hang around here, I believe it is time something should be done.

I propose the only responses to 'morgoth posts' should be to ignore them, or congratulate him on his continued dedication to trolling and waveserpents.

*Nice trolling morgoth*

Can't attack the argument so you attack the poster ? You know that's against forum rules don't you ?

As is spam and being rude, which is you almost every single post.

@morgoth in the 10% chance you're not trolling, have you gone back and actually read the things you post? You post in an aggressive manner which immediately puts people on the offensive. You also seem to like being contrary for the sake of being contrary, have you noticed that in your last 100 post that no one has agreed with anything you've said?

Give it a break for everyone's sake.

Unit #1: (Underrated) Tyrannofex with Acid Spray, relatively cheap, extremely tanky and is great against Tau, Eldar and Necrons.

Unit #2: (Overrated) Mawlocs, far too random and inconsisten for 1 -2 str 6 ap 2 pie plates that may or may not hit every other turn.

Ever since a (I presume, based on flag) German merc owner thought they were based in munchen, along with Audi, I gave up on them. They never admit error it seems

Riptide is one of those awkward units. Rolling well on its nova, and knowing when to roll, is key.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ever since a (I presume, based on flag) German merc owner thought they were based in munchen, along with Audi, I gave up on them. They never admit error it seems

Riptide is one of those awkward units. Rolling well on its nova, and knowing when to roll, is key.

1. You can mouseover the flags and discover that you should learn a bit more about flags.
2. I used München because I thought most people don't know what Bayern is. But hey, if you wanna talk about that for the next five years, have fun.

Oops , my bad. See, admitting an error.

Bavaria I think you mean. And you named a city, not (for example) ingolstadt.

It was just an example where your knowledge was faulty, and instead of backing down, you persisted. Like here.

It's a lesson, move on

Back to OP. I'll focus on CSM:

-Overrated: Obliterators. Don't get me wrong, they are really good. If I consider them overrated it's because they are not cheap, and HS has other interesting options. I don't consider them as an auto-include unit (not to mention taking 3 units), nor perfect. Sometimes I include a unit, but I don't build my strategy around these guys.

-Underrated: Rapaxes. Again, I'm trying to stick to the definition of underrated, meaning they are not brilliant, but many people would never even consider trying them, just ignoring their entrance on the FOC. Of course, when compared to bikes, they lose many battles: combi-bolter, +1T, etc. but jump units can move across some terrain bikes just can't. Maybe it's my meta, but I sometimes found myself in trouble while trying to move a unit of 8 bikes around, because of terrain. Also, they deepstrike. Sure, not the best unit in the codex to do so, but a cheap unit of 5 men + 2 meltas/plasmas can be scary/distracting.

I assume you meant Raptors not Rapaxes? If so, I agree and think they are only 1 notch below Bikes

Yes, I meant Raptors, in the spanish version of the codex they are still called Rapaxes. Don't really know why. I suspect lazyness is involved.

I suspect its related to spanish.

It definitely is

 Vaktathi wrote:

oz of the north wrote:


1) Thunderwolves- yes they are a fun gimmick, but in reality in a edition where assault is not favored they are just a giant target and if you play in a meta with lots of str. 10 they are pretty much useless. Also without allies they only can get a 6+ FnP with either a lucky roll or a wolf priest that is better used elsewhere

They're a unit with a 12" move, T5 W2, with 6 S5 rending attacks in almost any first round of combat, for less than the price of 3 basic putz marines, with the ability to kit them out individually to suit any need. They're incredibly tough, incredibly fast, and incredibly killy, for dirt cheap. What's not to like?

Also, how many armies are routinely bringing absurd amounts of S10, especially ranged AP3 or better S10? That's been toned way down, with the removal of the Medusa to FW only, the Broadside got nerfed, Fire Prisms can't link fire to get S10 anymore, Manticore's have seen a substantial drop in utility and a price increase (and aren't AP3 anyway) etc.

Besides, at least in my experience, what I find kills them best is just massed S7 fire like autocannons, strips wounds from them as easily as it does from basic marines, forget S10.

Yea Thunderwolves are great. Worth the 40pts for sure. If you charge them down the same flank your drop pods landed on, your opponent has a very difficult situation on his hands. Do I shoot the Thunderwolves while these Grey hunters continue to drop my men, or do I shoot the Grey Hunters and the Thunderwolves will make a huge mess of my battle line?

1. Overrated: objective secured. Who gives a damn about that when your enemy is dead?

2. Overrated: Riptide. Don't waste any fire on it. Kill their broadsides instead. Or easily sweeping advance it off the board with thunderwolf cavalry, high strength jump troops (assault marine PF sergeant will do the trick) or anything fast with high Str and ap2.

3. Overrated: daemon summoning lists. Not really a unit, but meh. They hit like a wet noodle. Just take the objectives and survive until the end of the game. Having the table covered in units doesn't necessarily win you the game. I beat one in just this fashion.

 Kavish wrote:

1. Overrated: objective secured. Who gives a damn about that when your enemy is dead?

I think it does have it's uses - certainly Objective Secured drop pods can be a pain - but in general I agree.

At the very least, it's a meagre bonus for troops, compared to when they were the only units that could score.

 Kavish wrote:
1. Overrated: objective secured. Who gives a damn about that when your enemy is dead?

It's not a unit. But it's definitely overrated.

Well considering Objective Secured is Free, you can't say it's not worth it's points.

 adamsouza wrote:
Well considering Objective Secured is Free, you can't say it's not worth it's points.

No, but you can say that, in most instances, it isn't worth the opportunity cost of not using Unbound.

If you see what I mean.

 vipoid wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Well considering Objective Secured is Free, you can't say it's not worth it's points.

No, but you can say that, in most instances, it isn't worth the opportunity cost of not using Unbound.

If you see what I mean.

That is the equivalent of saying waiting in line to pay isn't worth the opportunity cost of cost of just cutting to the head of the line. Sure you could both, but one of them is probably going to piss off people.

Seriously though, your ability to play unbound in any particular game is usually an agreed upon condition before the game. It's not like anyone seriously weighs the strength of objective secured verses being able to pack as many uber units in a list as points allows .

Better said that it's not worth building around or making cuts elsewhere for ObSec

 adamsouza wrote:

That is the equivalent of saying waiting in line to pay isn't worth the opportunity cost of cost of just cutting to the head of the line. Sure you could both, but one of them is probably going to piss off people.

Not sure about that analogy.

 adamsouza wrote:

Seriously though, your ability to play unbound in any particular game is usually an agreed upon condition before the game. It's not like anyone seriously weighs the strength of objective secured verses being able to pack as many uber units in a list as points allows .

You're right, people don't. But, that's only because Objective Secured is such a pathetic bonus (compared to Unbound).

If there was a more meaningful bonus for sticking to the FoC, then there might actually be something to weigh.

 vipoid wrote:

You're right, people don't. But, that's only because Objective Secured is such a pathetic bonus (compared to Unbound).

If there was a more meaningful bonus for sticking to the FoC, then there might actually be something to weigh.

There is, battle forged gives you rerollable warlord traits, which seem to be one of the most underrated things right now.

morgoth wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

You're right, people don't. But, that's only because Objective Secured is such a pathetic bonus (compared to Unbound).

If there was a more meaningful bonus for sticking to the FoC, then there might actually be something to weigh.

There is, battle forged gives you rerollable warlord traits, which seem to be one of the most underrated things right now.

Not always true. A battleforged army made up entirely of formations likely will not have that command benefit, and not every detachment is required to have that rule - it is not a necessary part of a detachments construction

nosferatu1001 wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

You're right, people don't. But, that's only because Objective Secured is such a pathetic bonus (compared to Unbound).

If there was a more meaningful bonus for sticking to the FoC, then there might actually be something to weigh.

There is, battle forged gives you rerollable warlord traits, which seem to be one of the most underrated things right now.

Not always true. A battleforged army made up entirely of formations likely will not have that command benefit, and not every detachment is required to have that rule - it is not a necessary part of a detachments construction

Not always true indeed, but in the case of FoC / CAD, it's a sensible bonus.

That being said, many armies lose a ton by sticking to the CAD, so unless you have 2 rerollable traits... and maybe even then.

morgoth wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

You're right, people don't. But, that's only because Objective Secured is such a pathetic bonus (compared to Unbound).

If there was a more meaningful bonus for sticking to the FoC, then there might actually be something to weigh.

There is, battle forged gives you rerollable warlord traits, which seem to be one of the most underrated things right now.

I agree, it depends on the army, of course, but I found it very useful for my CSM. I hated getting Fear (result 5) against Space Marines, or getting Preferred Enemy (SM) against the rest of armies (result 1), and I don't really dig the 6th result (not bad, but quite circumstantial).

 obleeke wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

You're right, people don't. But, that's only because Objective Secured is such a pathetic bonus (compared to Unbound).

If there was a more meaningful bonus for sticking to the FoC, then there might actually be something to weigh.

There is, battle forged gives you rerollable warlord traits, which seem to be one of the most underrated things right now.

I agree, it depends on the army, of course, but I found it very useful for my CSM. I hated getting Fear (result 5) against Space Marines, or getting Preferred Enemy (SM) against the rest of armies (result 1), and I don't really dig the 6th result (not bad, but quite circumstantial).

I was more thinking about Lord Castellan Creed or some Ork with da finkin cap.

2 Rerollable Strategy traits. Now that means you either have Conqueror of Cities or Master of ambush, both of which can make a huge difference.

And there are other traits that make a huge difference on some armies, like "Divide to Conquer" against DS armies, Night Attacker against a shooting army (that is not blacksun filter feth you army) or "Strategic Genius" if you're the DeepStriker.

morgoth wrote:

2 Rerollable Strategy traits. Now that means you either have Conqueror of Cities or Master of ambush, both of which can make a huge difference.

Or neither, if you're unlucky with dice.

1. The Almighty and All Powerful Riptide - Never actually manages to do much. It's easy to get caught up in Riptide mania, WOWWW 2 PLUS ARMOUR, 5 WOUNDS MONSTROUS CREATURE AP2 BLAST INVUN SAVES, etc. I went through this too, I was playing 2 at 1500 pts, which I don't think is cheese, I would never go 3 though. But two games i've used them in highlight their actual usefulness perfectly. In one game, against Eldar, with them I managed to blast a few Jetbikers before they could move and claim Jink (6th ed), killed a Wave Serpent in assault, and that was probably it. That was with 2 Riptides. The other day was a doubles game, I had one Riptide this time. The first two times I fired it, it scattered wildly both times. The third, I killed the majority of a Tactical Marine unit. The problem with the Riptide is that, to be reliable, it needs a lot of markerlights helping it out. And even when the markerlights are there, a lot of the time an AP2 Large Blast S8/S9 is simply overkill ! I don't face a lot of units with 2+ saves, my group seems to have gone the way of 3+ saves, Tyranid MC's, Marines, Necron Destroyers, etc (this might be a widespread thing now, due to the proliferation of AP2 weaponry) . To make it worth the points, that Ap2 large blast needs to come down on some powerful unit which needs to die. Most of the time, those killer units don't exist, OR there is another factor that prevents the Riptide from being useful. And I end up wasting a lot of markerlights which could be used more effectively on other units. The Riptide with it's blast can only score one wound on each model under the blast template, whereas a Broadside or Fire Warrior unit can score loads of S5+ hits, and I prefer to use markerlights on these units, so they can wear down tough units a lot more effectively.

2. The Humble Fire Warrior - I read quite a bit of Tau tactica on these forums (for advice on my own competitive army), but I don't think the value of these little guys is emphasized enough. In my list, I run two full units (one with Fireblade) in Devilfishes. They have been fantastic for me. No other army has the equivalent of the Pulse Rifle (on their main troop choice), which is just amazing. S5, makes scything through weaker units much easier, and allows FW units to threaten much stronger units, MC's look out, the Fire Warriors are here. The range of the Pulse Rifle is 30 inches, which means FW's are rapid firing at units 15 inches away. Even better. And what other armies have units like the Fireblade or Ethereal, which can make those 24 shots become 36 (or even more if you combine both HQ !). And all that is without mention of the Markerlight ! That amount of shots could easily do well on it's own despite BS3, but with Markerlights, these Fire Warriors are just....wow. A small mention for the Devilfish too, they are of paramount importance for getting your Fire Warriors around safely. Their survivability has shot up, 7th ed making it harder to blow them up, plus improved jink, has meant my Devilfishes have performed beyond my expectations.

3. Stealth Team - In my opinion, another underrated unit. Nobody directs large amounts of firepower towards them, thinking them a small threat. The way I have kitted them out, they can perform multiple tasks. Their basic purpose is a producer of markerlights, but with a Homing Beacon, Burst Cannons, and a Fusion Blaster, they can perform several roles. They are always underestimated, even by me in some cases. In a game against Necrons, my opponent got their Annihilation Barge too close in order to shoot a Devilfish, and my Fusion Blaster proceeded to penetrate the rear armour and blow it up. The FB was something I originally stuck on the model because i had never tried the Stealth Team, and when I started playing more competitively with them, I wished I didn't have to pay the points for it. But now, i'm glad it's there. Like the unit itself, the one FB is underestimated and forgotten about, until it then proceeds to blow something up making my opponent wish they hadn't. Their 2+ saves in cover infuriates opponents who just see them as an small easily killed unit, and their assault jump means you can help ensure they are in cover once done with shooting. In a game against Eldar, my Stealth Team was an invaluable source of markerlights, they had a perfect view on a large portion of my opponents army, and they constantly jumped behind LOS blocking terrain after shooting to prevent their death. My opponent never considered them a threat, so didn't bother dealing with them properly, and for this reason I will continue to use them. Like the Fire Warriors, Stealth Teams are always forgotten about, my opponent preferring to shoot at something else. And I will continue to make them regret it