This guy in a drop pod seems pretty sweet. He can put out a large volume of str 7 attacks . yea he will sit there for a turn, but I'm imagining he would make it.
what are your experiences with him? Do you like him?
or is the Ven Dread with the shield and axe better >?
Why not both? I think Murderfang is scary enough. Drop both in and let your opponent choose which one to go after, and the other one can rip into assault the following turn.
Squishy - our SW player has only successfully gotten him into combat a few times. He can't reliably survive turn 1, nor soak up enough damage to make him worthwhile as a distraction. Murderfang's potential damage output is very powerful, but if he can't survive long enough to use it, then... well, I would rather have a shield dread who can accomplish something.
One thing we've been meaning to try is a Lucius drop pod - it's sort of questionable whether a murderfang can take it (is it technically a dreadnought?) but that would give it the survivability it needs to survive and assault on turn 2.
As every cc unit that's not super-survivable, he needs target saturation. When there's 1-2 dreads - they won't do anything. But when there's a bunch of thunderwolves with lords, termies, other marines and basically, everything aggressive pressing the opponent, they really shine.
DanielBeaver wrote: Squishy - our SW player has only successfully gotten him into combat a few times. He can't reliably survive turn 1, nor soak up enough damage to make him worthwhile as a distraction. Murderfang's potential damage output is very powerful, but if he can't survive long enough to use it, then... well, I would rather have a shield dread who can accomplish something.
One thing we've been meaning to try is a Lucius drop pod - it's sort of questionable whether a murderfang can take it (is it technically a dreadnought?) but that would give it the survivability it needs to survive and assault on turn 2.
He can take the Lucius Drop Pod - as it specifically states that any "Dreadnought Variant" can purchase the drop pod as a transport. That means ALL dreadnoughts including contemptors.
One of the most favorite things I have done was do a proxy match where I filled up with as many dreadnoughts I could (Bjorn included) and fill the rest with min drop pod troops... and drop all the dreadnought drop pods in the face. You cannot shoot the dreadnought due to the rule of the Lucius pattern, it provided shrouded, and now you have 6 dreadnoughts ready to assault you next turn
fidel wrote: He can take the Lucius Drop Pod - as it specifically states that any "Dreadnought Variant" can purchase the drop pod as a transport. That means ALL dreadnoughts including contemptors.
The word "dreadnought" never appears in Murderfang's rules, we just assume that he is because he uses a dreadnought model. Even his fluff only says "resembles a Space Wolf Dreadnought".
fidel wrote: He can take the Lucius Drop Pod - as it specifically states that any "Dreadnought Variant" can purchase the drop pod as a transport. That means ALL dreadnoughts including contemptors.
The word "dreadnought" never appears in Murderfang's rules, we just assume that he is because he uses a dreadnought model. Even his fluff only says "resembles a Space Wolf Dreadnought".
Wow Really..... that is... very very weird....
Well I would argue if it looks like a dreadnought, fight like a dreadnought, smells like a dreadnought. IMO it would be a little mean to disallow an opponent the use of a drop pod because of a minor GW oversight.
My brother has tried the shield and axe dread against my nids a couple times. His problem is that he is too slow and easy to avoid through movement if he is deployed on the table. Deploying via drop pod with other fast units like sky/swift claws or Thunderwolves has been a little more effective because of the previously mentioned target saturation, but the problem is that he is a sitting target for a whole turn. The invuln from the shield helps his survivability a little, but with him being so close, it is going to be too easy to get side armor shots and negate that survivability boost.
graywater wrote: My brother has tried the shield and axe dread against my nids a couple times. His problem is that he is too slow and easy to avoid through movement if he is deployed on the table. Deploying via drop pod with other fast units like sky/swift claws or Thunderwolves has been a little more effective because of the previously mentioned target saturation, but the problem is that he is a sitting target for a whole turn. The invuln from the shield helps his survivability a little, but with him being so close, it is going to be too easy to get side armor shots and negate that survivability boost.
I dont play too much, but once i used my axe/shield SW dread against a Imperial guard gunline army, and just for the lol i drop it in front of the whole army (full of auto cannons and two lemanrusses) to give some time to my TWC to reach their prey... he survive a turn of shooting, all the imperial guard army, all (even the guards with krack granades) literally, ALL THE ARMY shot him.
The games was something like this: when the drop fall in front of the gun line(with an aegis line with quad autocannon), i placed it particular where he could recieve most of the shots with the front arc; my opponet shot the quad hoping to blow it, if not to strip some hp in the interceptor shoots, but then i saved all shots with the shield, then in his turn begin with the leman russes las cannon and , again saved the shots with shield, then a heavey weapons team with autocannons shot again and then nothing, all shots faild to pen or even glance, then my opponet begun to show some nervousness, more shoots from the quimeras big lassers and nothing, that was the moment he descide to shoot everything, 15 min later of pure imperial guard shooting wrath and my dread was only one hp left, in my turn my calvary advance full speed and make a glorious charge reaching the IG line, then my dread calmly proceeded to wreck a leman russ, exploding the tank and wounding several guardsmen, by that moment my opponent gave me the victory
fidel wrote: He can take the Lucius Drop Pod - as it specifically states that any "Dreadnought Variant" can purchase the drop pod as a transport. That means ALL dreadnoughts including contemptors.
The word "dreadnought" never appears in Murderfang's rules, we just assume that he is because he uses a dreadnought model. Even his fluff only says "resembles a Space Wolf Dreadnought".
Bjorn The Fell-Handed's profile doesn't technically say he's a dreadnought either.
AnomanderRake wrote: I just want to interject here and say I think the designers let someone's seven-year-old name the character.
this ,
murderfang
with the special rule murder lust
with murder claws.
"william murderface-murderface-murderface" is all i can think of when i see this character
The Space Wolves in general read like that, just like Canis Wolfborne the Space Wolves (who was once Lord of the Wolfkin), Wolfguard to Harald Deathwolf (who now is Lord of the Wolfkin), wielding Wolfclaws while riding his Thunderwolf alongside his Fenrisian Wolves and bearing the Saga of the Wolfkin.
The SW fluff is just handled exceptionally poorly in general.
AnomanderRake wrote: I just want to interject here and say I think the designers let someone's seven-year-old name the character.
Murderfang
Stormfang
Longfang
...but not nearly as overused as "wolf"
Wolf Lord
Harald Deathwolf
Canis Wolfborn
Wolf Priest
Wolf Guard
Wolf Scouts
Lone Wolf
Stormwolf
Thunderwolf
Fenrisian Wolf
Wolf Claw
Wolf Amulet
Wolf Standard
Fangsword of the Ice Wolf
Wolves Unleashed
fidel wrote: He can take the Lucius Drop Pod - as it specifically states that any "Dreadnought Variant" can purchase the drop pod as a transport. That means ALL dreadnoughts including contemptors.
The word "dreadnought" never appears in Murderfang's rules, we just assume that he is because he uses a dreadnought model. Even his fluff only says "resembles a Space Wolf Dreadnought".
Seriously? Haha.
The 7th Edition Space Wolves codex really is one of the worst things to ever happen to 40K.
Now i've got an image in my head of the space wolf leaders screwing around and being not very bright, but playing killer death metal in their spare time.
I haven't had much luck with him. Granted I've only gotten a handful of games in with him, but it seems like he can't survive the round of shooting once he lands. Everyone is scared of him getting into combat that they blow him off the map the turn he arrives.
I use him often. You MUST alpha strike him, no ranged weapons means you want combat ASAP. Also, put smoke launchers for the turn 1 drop. Position well and your opponent will have to try to get past the ++3 save. In the 3 games I have used him...
1. VS SM, Vanguard deployment, landed behind all my enemies stuff. Soaked some fire, and then chased things. Eventually killed warlord. Was it a good investment? Yes, he soaked up OK fire, and caused my opponent to GTFO his deployment zone.
2. Mishapped off the table and landed really far away, sat on an objective all game. Worth it? I dunno, I took a gamble and lost.
3. VS Daemons and Orks. Tried a turn 2 pod, bad idea. Still caused my opponents to scramble. He found himself in combat with biker nobs, then screamers, won both and then had a free stroll through the enemy deployment zone, killing whatever he would have if we hadn't called it turn3.
The upside: ++3 on front, and with smoke you can get a +3 cover on another angle if you use pod/terrain well. He is durable, but only 3 attacks base puts him well below soul grinder tier of walkers in dmg output, but I would rank it higher than a soul grinder in CC reliance. I haven't had a chance to bust out murderfang, but I have received a charge from him, and it was horribly powerful.
Murderfang is bad. Really bad. With no way of negating the initiative penalty for charging through cover and only a 12 front armor, he just can't hang in combat. Either get the axe, or ally in Furiosos or Ironclads if you want dreadnoughts in combat.
Torga_DW wrote: Now i've got an image in my head of the space wolf leaders screwing around and being not very bright, but playing killer death metal in their spare time.
Ulrik: "Alright everyone, I'm going to attempt again, right now, to explain the Space Wolves chapter. The tactics, the companies, the-"
Logan: "Just one second."
Ulrik: "Logan..."
Logan (texting): "Just hold on. I'm just gonna text a joke real quick."
Ulrik: "Do you guys want to know about the chapter or not?"
Murderfang: "Of course! We're not incapable of understanding!" (looks over to Logan) "...who are you texting?"
Ulrik: "Seriously, I'm not going to waste my time?"
Njal: "Oh c'mons, tells us that craps that you was gonna says about... thats borings crap, because we... uh... we want to... uh... know... that." (Falls asleep)
Ragnar (checks texts): “Oh look! ‘Knock-knock.'" (Texts back) "’Who ams there?'”
Logan (sending reply): “‘Logan.’ Logan’s here..."
Ulrik: "Guys..."
Ragnar (checks reply): “‘Logans who?’ Oh! look! ‘Knock-knock. Who ams there? Logans. Logans who? Logans Grimnar! Ha ha ha! Who sents me this text? Who sent mes this?”
Logan: “Ragnar, Rangar - it was me! I sent you that text!”
Krom: "Oh, that was you!!!"
Ragnar: “I was looking at you the whole times and I did nots know! Oh! Ahahahaha!”
Murderfang: "Oh man, that was some good man! Hahaha! How did you keep a straight face!"
Logan: "Oh you know, I had to bite my tongue for a while not to laugh."
Njal (waking up suddenly): "Hahaha!" (doesn't know why everyone's laughing)
Lukas (appears out of nowhere): "I'M LUKAS, THE TRICKSTER! I DO C-C-COCAINE!"
The trick [it has been mentioned earlier] is target Saturation.
You drop 2-3 Melta/Plasma-Hunters, and Axe/Shield Dread and Murderfang along with some Void Claw Terminators [For the Re-Roll Scatter] forcing your opponent to choose the biggest threat between the 5-6 Targets. Especially if you can work in Logan or Arjac into the mix.
Andilus that was great. Those little vignettes are the best part of the show.
Anpu, you are right about the target saturation, but the amount of dreads required to make such a tactic work is a heavy point sink. Then you have to pile additional costs on top of that to buy enough drop pods to have those dreads all come in on the same turn. If they do not come in on the same turn, it is not too difficult to take the dreads on piecemeal. Its certainly a gamble at most point levels because it is such an all or nothing approach. So if you are gonna run them, you better do it big and hope the enemy doesn't have a hard counter to them like mass AV options or high mobility to leave the dreads in the dust.
graywater wrote: Andilus that was great. Those little vignettes are the best part of the show.
Anpu, you are right about the target saturation, but the amount of dreads required to make such a tactic work is a heavy point sink. Then you have to pile additional costs on top of that to buy enough drop pods to have those dreads all come in on the same turn. If they do not come in on the same turn, it is not too difficult to take the dreads on piecemeal. Its certainly a gamble at most point levels because it is such an all or nothing approach. So if you are gonna run them, you better do it big and hope the enemy doesn't have a hard counter to them like mass AV options or high mobility to leave the dreads in the dust.
Yes
The other thing about Murderfang is that like some other Units you need to build your list around him not just tack him on at the end because you have the points.
The other thing about Murderfang is that like some other Units you need to build your list around him not just tack him on at the end because you have the points.
This has been my experience. I play two wolf players. One has had a lot of success playing with dreads in pods and one has had a miserable time with them. The difference is that the first one pods in three when he uses them, while the second only runs one... then claims that they are garbage, even when I tell him of the success of the other player.
The other thing about Murderfang is that like some other Units you need to build your list around him not just tack him on at the end because you have the points.
This has been my experience. I play two wolf players. One has had a lot of success playing with dreads in pods and one has had a miserable time with them. The difference is that the first one pods in three when he uses them, while the second only runs one... then claims that they are garbage, even when I tell him of the success of the other player.
That about sums it up.
We have a Guard player who does things like that, he had a concept, but the list usually had big flaws in it. The last one he wanted to try out the Tuorox, so he traded out his two Punishers for them and some of the Eletion Scout cars leaving him with not tanks.
graywater wrote: Andilus that was great. Those little vignettes are the best part of the show.
Anpu, you are right about the target saturation, but the amount of dreads required to make such a tactic work is a heavy point sink. Then you have to pile additional costs on top of that to buy enough drop pods to have those dreads all come in on the same turn. If they do not come in on the same turn, it is not too difficult to take the dreads on piecemeal. Its certainly a gamble at most point levels because it is such an all or nothing approach. So if you are gonna run them, you better do it big and hope the enemy doesn't have a hard counter to them like mass AV options or high mobility to leave the dreads in the dust.
The problem with Murderface and target saturation is he's too expensive per HP and a high threat. You can't think "well if they're shooting Murderface it just means another dread is surviving" because all the other dreads are either cheaper or tougher, you WANT them to shoot the other dreads instead of Murderface but they will inevitably shoot Murderface.
If your goal is target saturation, you'd almost always prefer either another regular dread or another shield dread to the Murderface.
The only way I really see Murderface being anything but a liability is to put him in a drop pod but have him show up late and hope that you can engage enemy shooty units that can hurt him before he shows up so that he is more likely to survive a turn and charge something.
The problem with Murderface and target saturation is he's too expensive per HP and a high threat. You can't think "well if they're shooting Murderface it just means another dread is surviving" because all the other dreads are either cheaper or tougher, you WANT them to shoot the other dreads instead of Murderface but they will inevitably shoot Murderface.
If your goal is target saturation, you'd almost always prefer either another regular dread or another shield dread to the Murderface.
Target saturation is still the best way to use murderface, and you can use the other dreads to help shield him. Its surprisingly easy to give him a cover save, and potentially totally block access to him between the two other dreads and three drop pods. That being said, I actually agree with you. I have yet to see murderface used effectively, but I have seen a shield and axe dread used to good effect. The target saturation tactic is the underlying principle behind most drop dread lists. I was not suggesting that murderface was particularly effective; only that if someone wanted to run murderface/ dread list, then this is the tactic one should adhere to.
Completely forgot about Allies. That may be more effective, particularly if you want to just run one. The delivery method is substantially more points-intensive and you are getting a turn three charge at best, but it is capable of contributing more to the battle beyond just transportation.
graywater wrote: Completely forgot about Allies. That may be more effective, particularly if you want to just run one. The delivery method is substantially more points-intensive and you are getting a turn three charge at best, but it is capable of contributing more to the battle beyond just transportation.
You can also shove in Arjac and 5 of his buddies if you want.
Another key is placement of each dread. As a general rule, dreads are immune to most anti-infantry weapons, resistant to some heavy weapons and vulnerable to all anti-tank weapons.
If you position the most vulnerable dreads where the big stuff has easy shots, you will lose them. So drop in a w. ay that protects your most precious melee dreads and use other units to neutralize the anti-tank component first turn. From there the melee dreads should be able to wreck face safely
Jefffar wrote: Another key is placement of each dread. As a general rule, dreads are immune to most anti-infantry weapons, resistant to some heavy weapons and vulnerable to all anti-tank weapons.
If you position the most vulnerable dreads where the big stuff has easy shots, you will lose them. So drop in a w. ay that protects your most precious melee dreads and use other units to neutralize the anti-tank component first turn. From there the melee dreads should be able to wreck face safely
You also don't Drop near the Big Guns with Murderfang. Murderfang is best we outnumbered so you want to go after target you know he will do big numbers of wounds on. Geed Targets are Command Squads, and normal Troop Types. If the Command Squad has Calgar in it go for something else. Try Targets like Centurions [No Overwatch], Mega-Nobs [You will go off first] and such.
I feel like the biggest problem with Murderface is it's easily to do better for cheaper. You can build your army around him if you really like him, but all in all he is really meh.
Here is a Maximum Pod Saturation List I have been working on.
2000 Points Codex: Space Wolves Murderfang Drop Pod List
Wolf Lord in Terminator Armour, 170 pts (Storm Shield; Wolf Claw)
Wolf Guard Void Claws, 240 pts
>Wolf Guard Terminator Leader (Two Wolf Claws)
>4x Wolf Guard Terminators (Two Wolf Claws)
Bjorn the Fell-Handed, 280 pts (Helfrost Cannon)
>Drop Pod (Locator Beacon; Deathwind Missile Launcher)
Murderfang, 185 pts
>Drop Pod (Deathwind Missile Launcher)
Maximilian Venerable Dreadnaught [Max] 210 pts (Extra Armour; Smoke Launchers; Fenrisian Great Axe; Blizzard Shield)
>Drop Pod (Deathwind Missile Launcher)
Plasma Hunters, 300 pts (Bolt Pistol x7; Bolt Gun x7; Plasma-Gun x2; Plasma Pistol; Power Fist)
>Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Power Armour; Combi-Plasma; Wolf Claw)
>Drop Pod (Deathwind Missile Launcher)
Melta Hunters, 295 pts (Bolt Pistol x7; Bolt Gun x7; Melta-Gun x2; Plasma Pistol; Power Fist)
>Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Power Armour; Combi-Flamer; Power Fist)
>Drop Pod (Deathwind Missile Launcher)
Rex Dreadnought, 170 pts (Extra Armour; Smoke Launchers; Great Wolf Claw and Storm Bolter; Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter)
Drop Pod (Deathwind Missile Launcher)
Drop Pod, 50 pts (Deathwind Missile Launcher)
Drop Pod, 50 pts (Deathwind Missile Launcher)
Drop Pod, 50 pts (Deathwind Missile Launcher)
Everything on this list has a purpose even the Detachment, Formation and the 3 Empty Drop Pods.
The Wolves Unleashed Formation.: This was chosen mostly for the Rapid Arrival of Reserves. At the Start of each of your Turns before Reserve Rolls are made you can Choose One Unit In Reserves to Automatically Arrive.
Turn #1: Wolf Lord and the Void Claws: The first are to land are the Wolf Lord and the Void Claws. With their Re-Roll to Scatter. Their final Location will help with the overall Placement of the Rest. Also it prevents Mishaps on what is going to be a very packed Backfield of your enemy. The Wolf Lord is there to soak up wounds with his 3++ Save. [As a Note if you go with the Champions of Fenris Detachment you can replace him with Arjac]
>Why I chose them: They for as long as they are alive will give me Re-Rolls on Reserves.
Bjorn: Then Bjorn Lands somewhere near the Void Claws to both provide some cover and act as an Ant-Something Big Shooting Weapons.
>The choice of Bjorn is twofold, 1st is to act as a possible Warlord Choice to Support your Grey Hunters using his Sega of Majesty and 2nd to get you opponent to react out of fear of what he is capable of, but one you drop your Re-Roll for Scatter S6, AP3 Cupcake or S8, AP1 with Re-Roll attack he will.
>Bjorn's Drop Pod also has the Locator Beacon to act as a center point for Pods should it land in the right spot.
Maximilian: Drop him where you feel you need a Bullet Shield Bjorn and Murderfang and pop Smoke. This gives you 3++ Save to the front and a 5+ Cover Save for the rest of your facings.
By now things should be getting a little crowded oddly enough making your accurate.
Murderfang: He should land in the rough triangle between the Void Claws, Bjorn and Maximilian.
>This should keep him out of the Line of Fire, yet close enough he can pull off an Assault next turn. If you have him in the right place you might even get a chance to take out a Command Squad or Devastator Squad.
Plasma-Hunters: They should land near something significant like a large Vehicle or MC. Another good choice would be a unit on an Objective.
>I tooled them up big time for two major reasons, 1st once more to put the fear of the Emperor in your opponent as 7 Plasma Shots come in his direction, 2nd is the Firepower they will project both up front and when you have a chance at an Assault.
Melta-Hunters: Similar to the Plasma-Hunters, but they should be sent after Tanks and other Hard to kill Targets.
>They are tooled up for the same roasons as the Plasma Hunter, but this time it will be 3 Melta-Guns and 1 Plasma Pistol.
[Currently there are now 11 different Targets for your opponent to deal with, some of them will require multiple different Units to kill off some of them.]
Turn #2: Rex: Comes down near some infantry and starts to gun them down of an Objective.
>Oddly enough he is there to Bring Down another Drop Pod.
0-3 Drop Empty Drop Pods: Now we are where I explain the Empty [and not so-empty] Pods in detail. You should get two of them and all Three with the Re-Roll for Reserves.
>The Drop Pod Assault: The Empty Pods are there to sort of Front Load your initial Drop Pod Assault.
>Deathwind Missile Launcher: You will notice that all the Drip Pods have them. The thing is one Deathwind will do little, though three of them dumping on a Infantry Unit with S5 Pie will quickly take its toll even if they have good cover.
Example: You have a Squad of Kroot Snipers in a set of Woods sitting on an objective and you pull off Rex and 2 other pods on turn two. You place each one on a different side of the Woods.
Rex Lands and puts his Storm Bolter Shots and his Heavy Bolter to use forcing saves. Then the Three pieces of S5 Shrapnel Pie lands forcing more save. The four of them now become a real threat that has to be dealt with and quickly. Now after dealing with the Kroot Rex wanders off to shoot up something else the Three Pods are now holding the Objective.
I hope that list is just for fun because you will get curb stomped against any semi competitive army with that list. 600 points for 14 GH and 2 WG is insane. Bjorn is just ridiculously over costed and if you took all those missile launchers off your drop pods you could add a squad of long fangs with missiles. Let me know how it plays but don't get your hopes up...
Toofast wrote: I hope that list is just for fun because you will get curb stomped against any semi competitive army with that list. 600 points for 14 GH and 2 WG is insane. Bjorn is just ridiculously over costed and if you took all those missile launchers off your drop pods you could add a squad of long fangs with missiles. Let me know how it plays but don't get your hopes up...
Well it is for FUN!
Long Fangs do no fit into the theme of the list and the Storm Bolters on the Pods Suck, the Missiles can cause lots of damage very quickly. I have had them kill off entire Squads in one turn from Multi-Pods.
This was also and example ho how to over-saturate your opponent with Pods, take and unit and mix it with another unit the principle is the same.
Cut out ever upgrade and increase the # of Pods.
The big thing this does is give your opponent so much to deal with that you can get Murderfang gets into Melee.
In a 2000 point game, that isn't a lot to deal with. It's a very low model count army considering the points. It's 29 models and some pods. Only half of your pods drop first turn. Against an army like nids or orks the first wave will be swarmed with bodies and as the rest trickle in from reserves they can be wiped out 1 by 1. Against tau or eldar half of your first wave will be dead from shooting before it can assault.
Toofast wrote: In a 2000 point game, that isn't a lot to deal with. It's a very low model count army considering the points. It's 29 models and some pods. Only half of your pods drop first turn. Against an army like nids or orks the first wave will be swarmed with bodies and as the rest trickle in from reserves they can be wiped out 1 by 1. Against tau or eldar half of your first wave will be dead from shooting before it can assault.
The list was something I threw together in 15min on Army Builder to show how to Maximize Drop Pods and some of the tactics. If you can come up with a better list, please do.
And yes I would love to play it once just to see. I have a 19 model 2000 point list that has yet to loose [don't ask me how, it just does].
It might be a local Meta thing.
That army is not what I consider a target saturation army at all. You've taken 4 expensive dreadnoughts in a 2000pt army and 2 expensive squads of Grey Hunters.
The only way I see that working is if your local meta hasn't heard about armour yet and doesn't know to take anti tank weapons, but then you'd still possibly lose from a lack of models for objectives. I'd say even an army that is light on anti tank in a more typical meta will have little problem against that army.
In an era where people at 2000pts are typically equipped to deal with 2 IK's or a couple a Wraithknights or half a dozen IG tanks... I think a lot of people could take out 3 of your 4 dreadnoughts in 1 turn, many could take out all of them (especially if they have some mobile anti armour to get behind the ven dread to negate his save, you have too few models to control enemy movement).
Granted I haven't played against it so maybe I'm totally wrong... but if I saw you deploying that army against me I'd mostly just giggle
If you think of 40k as being similar to rock paper scissors, target saturation means taking so many scissors that they overwhelm the number of rocks your typical opponent would take... 4 dreadnoughts and a few expensive infantry squads is not target saturation.
I have come up with a better list for drop pods, it came in the top 15 at NOVA.
Rune priest, TDA, level 2 psyker
9 GH, CCW, 2 meltas, WGPL Chainsword, Combi Melta
Drop pod
9 GH, CCW, 2 meltas, WGPL Chainsword, Combi Melta
Drop pod
9 GH, CCW, 2 meltas, WGPL Chainsword, Combi Melta
Drop pod
stormfang, lascannons, multi meltas
fast attack pod
Tigurius
9 tac marines, melta, Sgt, Chainsword, Combi Melta
Drop pod
4 tac marines, melta, Sgt, Chainsword, Combi Melta
Drop pod
3 grav cents, omni scope
1849 points
Or you can swap tigurius for a regular psyker, run sentinels of terra and swap stormfang for another 3 man squad of grav cents in another fast attack pod. If your meta has a decent amount of flyers, take the stormfang version. If you don't anticipate many flyers, take the 2 grav cent squads.
I don't have any dreads there because they're terrible, over costed and I prefer to win games.
Anpu42 wrote: Nice List, but This is supposed to be about how to use Murderfang I thought.
- How to run Murderfangs? - Oh, that's easy - run droppod meltamarines and grav cents! - ...
It's basically...
-How do you use Murderface? -Run him like you would any other expensive and easy to kill CC dread -So how is that? -Leave it at home and bring something better...
Just a quick gloat: I played a game where my maulerfiend fluke-killed both bjorn and murderfang. My mate was livid, I've never seen so many ones rolled.
pax_imperialis wrote: Just a quick gloat: I played a game where my maulerfiend fluke-killed both bjorn and murderfang. My mate was livid, I've never seen so many ones rolled.
I always have freak things like that happen to Bjorn, that or he never take a Penetrating Hit.
We refer to him colloquially as "The Murderfang" but I'm not sure how it got started. Anyhow, my eyes lit up when I saw him but in-game I find he adds little.
His biggest fault is that he is literally as easy to kill as any chump dreadnought. I have found the Shield dread I run to generally earn a lot more keep. What the Murderfang does, can be done better by a unit of THSS Terminators for only slightly higher cost. He works well in target saturation scenarios but honestly I've had such a good run with the Helfrost cannon dreads that I have really no interest in him anymore, other than as a cool display model.
Someday I'd like to try a CotGW detachment with 6 dreads and see how he works out then...but my Murderfang never has even made combat, since he lands and then is immediately killed off.
Anpu42 wrote: Nice List, but This is supposed to be about how to use Murderfang I thought.
- How to run Murderfangs?
- Oh, that's easy - run droppod meltamarines and grav cents!
- ...
It's basically...
-How do you use Murderface?
-Run him like you would any other expensive and easy to kill CC dread
-So how is that?
-Leave it at home and bring something better...
Don't ya love how balanced 40k is?
That's not really a balance issue. It isn't like everything needs to be effective. Maybe a close combat dreadnought just isn't a good idea most of the time, lol. I mean, it would be like saying my Saxon warriors are gimped in a WW2 game.
Anpu42 wrote: Nice List, but This is supposed to be about how to use Murderfang I thought.
- How to run Murderfangs?
- Oh, that's easy - run droppod meltamarines and grav cents!
- ...
It's basically...
-How do you use Murderface?
-Run him like you would any other expensive and easy to kill CC dread
-So how is that?
-Leave it at home and bring something better...
Don't ya love how balanced 40k is?
Exactly! This post was about how to use Murderfang effectively. In my experience with Murderfang and dreads in general in 7th, their most effective use is sitting at home on your display shelf with their points filled by melta pods and grav cents.
unfortunately, anything relying on AV12 and 3 HP's and needing to be in CC to do most of its damage just won't cut it, if they had a save of some sort or the game still used the 5E damage table, they'd be much more useful.
It is a shame to that every time someone wants to try to make a "Not So Good Unit" work we get those who would rather berate it and say just leave it on the shelf rather than use there brain ant try to make it work.
The problem anpu, is that to make some units work, requires points investment beyond their owe to make them good, which is better spent on better units
hotsauceman1 wrote: The problem anpu, is that to make some units work, requires points investment beyond their owe to make them good, which is better spent on better units
So you have never just pulled out a unit just because it could be fun.
I am not saying Murderfang is a "Competitive Unit", but it could [note the keyword: Could] be made viable if time was taken to try and figure out how to use him.
I have I think found one way, but nobody truly took notice of how to get him in to an Assault with only having to deal with Overwatch fire. Put him an allied Stormraven.
I posted a list made to get him down and into a Assault I got, "Here is the problem with the list, lets make these A, B, C, Changes." I got "That List Sucks and it will di instantly and it will die in the moment it shows up...and by the way Murderfang Sucks." At time I feel I am the only one who is trying to figure out how to make him work rather than put him on the shelf.
And no to me "He it not worth his Points" is not an argument, because if WE can figure out how to make him work he will be worth his points.
I think the main point is that this is a "Murderfang review" thread, and most people have had bad experiences with him. If this was something more like "how can I get Murderfang into combat" or "how can I build an okay list around Murderfang" then it might be a bit different.
Personally, I think Murderfang is a cool "fun" unit. He'd be great in a podding threat overload list, and that occasional game where he actually kills a whole unit himself would be priceless. It really depends on how "competitive" your opponents tend to be and how silly you want your list to be.
What exactly is a fun unit, though? Performs badly on the table? Has lots of special rules? Has a face that looks like murderface? I don't understand how certain (sometimes badly) underperforming units get hit with the 'fun' brush. With enough investiture they can become sorta viable. Fun is subjective and not knocking anyone for liking certain units/combos, but sometimes it seems like fun is what bad units are called. I love dreadnoughts, i have ~6 of them, but i wouldn't call them 'fun'.
hotsauceman1 wrote: The problem anpu, is that to make some units work, requires points investment beyond their owe to make them good, which is better spent on better units
So you have never just pulled out a unit just because it could be fun.
I am not saying Murderfang is a "Competitive Unit", but it could [note the keyword: Could] be made viable if time was taken to try and figure out how to use him.
I have I think found one way, but nobody truly took notice of how to get him in to an Assault with only having to deal with Overwatch fire. Put him an allied Stormraven.
I posted a list made to get him down and into a Assault I got, "Here is the problem with the list, lets make these A, B, C, Changes." I got "That List Sucks and it will di instantly and it will die in the moment it shows up...and by the way Murderfang Sucks." At time I feel I am the only one who is trying to figure out how to make him work rather than put him on the shelf.
And no to me "He it not worth his Points" is not an argument, because if WE can figure out how to make him work he will be worth his points.
And you will find yourself disapointed TBH. Look at him, yeah, he gets ten attacks on the charge but he will rarely make it them. You have few options. Walking him isnt one, because he will die. Droppoding isnt either because he is CC, so he will die net turn, because he is in melta range or assault range of something infinitly more scary, like a knight.
He is a CC dreadnaught, which is uite frankly terrible in this edition. If he had melta, MAYBE, but im sorry, he isnt that good.
Torga_DW wrote: What exactly is a fun unit, though? Performs badly on the table? Has lots of special rules? Has a face that looks like murderface? I don't understand how certain (sometimes badly) underperforming units get hit with the 'fun' brush. With enough investiture they can become sorta viable. Fun is subjective and not knocking anyone for liking certain units/combos, but sometimes it seems like fun is what bad units are called. I love dreadnoughts, i have ~6 of them, but i wouldn't call them 'fun'.
In this case, fun because he's slow and easy to kill, but if he gets into combat he will shred through things with ease. Fun is kind of subjective. I'd say 10 man Grey Hunter units with 3 meltas and a Wolf Banner are "fun" for me, because it's too much of a points investment for a serious list, but when I'm playing casually, small, powerful squads are my bread and butter.
Anpu42 wrote: And no to me "He it not worth his Points" is not an argument, because if WE can figure out how to make him work he will be worth his points.
But I think we've already established this. You can try target saturation, but he still sucks. You can try dropping him in late and using other units to tie up units that can hurt him, but he still sucks.
Those are your options if you really desperately want to use him, but I think we've already gone through the iterations of WHY he isn't worth his points.
It's not enough to tell us we need to open our minds to the possibilities of using Murderface, you have to give viable options that show us the possibilities and aren't just easily countered by 9 out of 10 armies you're likely to (murder)face.
I do like the Stormraven idea though. I've said why I think target saturation doesn't magically make him good on previous pages.
Torga_DW wrote: What exactly is a fun unit, though? Performs badly on the table? Has lots of special rules? Has a face that looks like murderface? I don't understand how certain (sometimes badly) underperforming units get hit with the 'fun' brush. With enough investiture they can become sorta viable. Fun is subjective and not knocking anyone for liking certain units/combos, but sometimes it seems like fun is what bad units are called. I love dreadnoughts, i have ~6 of them, but i wouldn't call them 'fun'.
In this case, fun because he's slow and easy to kill, but if he gets into combat he will shred through things with ease. Fun is kind of subjective. I'd say 10 man Grey Hunter units with 3 meltas and a Wolf Banner are "fun" for me, because it's too much of a points investment for a serious list, but when I'm playing casually, small, powerful squads are my bread and butter.
Three meltas in a Grey Hunter unit? Explain your witchcraft!
On topic: I think Murderfang can be a fun unit. But when I say fun, I mean some kind of game with friends where we made up some crazy rules and objectives or something. It has to be admitted that if he got in CC it'd be great to see him shred through his enemy like a Wolfy blender.
Torga_DW wrote: What exactly is a fun unit, though? Performs badly on the table? Has lots of special rules? Has a face that looks like murderface? I don't understand how certain (sometimes badly) underperforming units get hit with the 'fun' brush. With enough investiture they can become sorta viable. Fun is subjective and not knocking anyone for liking certain units/combos, but sometimes it seems like fun is what bad units are called. I love dreadnoughts, i have ~6 of them, but i wouldn't call them 'fun'.
In this case, fun because he's slow and easy to kill, but if he gets into combat he will shred through things with ease. Fun is kind of subjective. I'd say 10 man Grey Hunter units with 3 meltas and a Wolf Banner are "fun" for me, because it's too much of a points investment for a serious list, but when I'm playing casually, small, powerful squads are my bread and butter.
Three meltas in a Grey Hunter unit? Explain your witchcraft!
On topic: I think Murderfang can be a fun unit. But when I say fun, I mean some kind of game with friends where we made up some crazy rules and objectives or something. It has to be admitted that if he got in CC it'd be great to see him shred through his enemy like a Wolfy blender.
2x Melta and the Wolfguard's combi-melta. You could throw in more combi-meltas with an IC too, theoretically.
Perhaps we aren't suggesting ways to make him work because we've tried every solution with him and other dreads and none of them work. Getting a 200~ point model blown up before it does a damn thing is not my idea of fun. Neither is investing even more points to put him in a flyer.
Toofast wrote: Perhaps we aren't suggesting ways to make him work because we've tried every solution with him and other dreads and none of them work. Getting a 200~ point model blown up before it does a damn thing is not my idea of fun. Neither is investing even more points to put him in a flyer.
Have you tried him with lots of other droppods and fast mellee threats? Or have you just thrown 1-2 pods of something?
Toofast wrote: Perhaps we aren't suggesting ways to make him work because we've tried every solution with him and other dreads and none of them work. Getting a 200~ point model blown up before it does a damn thing is not my idea of fun. Neither is investing even more points to put him in a flyer.
Have you tried him with lots of other droppods and fast mellee threats? Or have you just thrown 1-2 pods of something?
Thats the inherent problem with melee vs shooting. Short of bad luck, the shooting guys get to drop the big threats first, one of which will be murderface. Look at it from the other side of the table: murderface and 5 other dreadnoughts pod down next to you. Who is going to cause the most damage the fastest? Who are you going to shoot first?
Anpu42 wrote: It is a shame to that every time someone wants to try to make a "Not So Good Unit" work we get those who would rather berate it and say just leave it on the shelf rather than use there brain ant try to make it work.
Yeah....try starting a thread about playing CSMlol. "Everything is awful, your book is terrible, your only hope is unbound with all heldrakes"
Anpu42 wrote: It is a shame to that every time someone wants to try to make a "Not So Good Unit" work we get those who would rather berate it and say just leave it on the shelf rather than use there brain ant try to make it work.
Yeah....try starting a thread about playing CSMlol. "Everything is awful, your book is terrible, your only hope is unbound with all heldrakes"
Nurgle is good. I'm a tzeentch man myself, glad i'm not a khorne guy though.
Toofast wrote: Perhaps we aren't suggesting ways to make him work because we've tried every solution with him and other dreads and none of them work. Getting a 200~ point model blown up before it does a damn thing is not my idea of fun. Neither is investing even more points to put him in a flyer.
Have you tried him with lots of other droppods and fast mellee threats? Or have you just thrown 1-2 pods of something?
Thats the inherent problem with melee vs shooting. Short of bad luck, the shooting guys get to drop the big threats first, one of which will be murderface. Look at it from the other side of the table: murderface and 5 other dreadnoughts pod down next to you. Who is going to cause the most damage the fastest? Who are you going to shoot first?
I'd say the shooting dreads will cause damage before Murderfang and would be force fed any Interceptor shots I had to try to prevent that.
Toofast wrote: Perhaps we aren't suggesting ways to make him work because we've tried every solution with him and other dreads and none of them work. Getting a 200~ point model blown up before it does a damn thing is not my idea of fun. Neither is investing even more points to put him in a flyer.
Have you tried him with lots of other droppods and fast mellee threats? Or have you just thrown 1-2 pods of something?
Thats the inherent problem with melee vs shooting. Short of bad luck, the shooting guys get to drop the big threats first, one of which will be murderface. Look at it from the other side of the table: murderface and 5 other dreadnoughts pod down next to you. Who is going to cause the most damage the fastest? Who are you going to shoot first?
I'd say the shooting dreads will cause damage before Murderfang and would be force fed any Interceptor shots I had to try to prevent that.
Dreadnoughts simply don't work well for target saturation because they're too easy to kill. If murderface drops too far away to charge the next turn (either because he's trying to get cover or because you have space to simply move away) then you're best off shooting the other Dreads, if Murderface drops close enough to charge you next turn, just shoot him.
It's not really a threat when you can decide at any time "ok, I'll kill that one now"
Toofast wrote: Perhaps we aren't suggesting ways to make him work because we've tried every solution with him and other dreads and none of them work. Getting a 200~ point model blown up before it does a damn thing is not my idea of fun. Neither is investing even more points to put him in a flyer.
Have you tried him with lots of other droppods and fast mellee threats? Or have you just thrown 1-2 pods of something?
Thats the inherent problem with melee vs shooting. Short of bad luck, the shooting guys get to drop the big threats first, one of which will be murderface. Look at it from the other side of the table: murderface and 5 other dreadnoughts pod down next to you. Who is going to cause the most damage the fastest? Who are you going to shoot first?
I'd say the shooting dreads will cause damage before Murderfang and would be force fed any Interceptor shots I had to try to prevent that.
Dreadnoughts simply don't work well for target saturation because they're too easy to kill. If murderface drops too far away to charge the next turn (either because he's trying to get cover or because you have space to simply move away) then you're best off shooting the other Dreads, if Murderface drops close enough to charge you next turn, just shoot him.
It's not really a threat when you can decide at any time "ok, I'll kill that one now"
Also a big issue is even if he does luckily get into combat he will most likely destroy something worth much less than him in the first round of combat and then be stuck in the enemies lines with little to no defense for a turn, which will most likely mean his destruction.
Toofast wrote: Perhaps we aren't suggesting ways to make him work because we've tried every solution with him and other dreads and none of them work. Getting a 200~ point model blown up before it does a damn thing is not my idea of fun. Neither is investing even more points to put him in a flyer.
Have you tried him with lots of other droppods and fast mellee threats? Or have you just thrown 1-2 pods of something?
When I take drop pods, I take as many as I can. I've tried him in an all drop pod army with 5 man GH squads in pods and a lascannon/Missile dread in a pod. Any time he lands close enough to charge the next turn, he gets blown up. No enemy with half a brain is going to sit there and let Murderface charge into their front line.
First came in the storm raven did a little damage, but then was vector struck by flyrant, murderface was immobilized and then shot to death by flyrant.
Second came in managed to drop killed a cheap unit of CSM and then he was meltaed/lascannoned to death.
Third time did not come in until turn 4 and by that point he was pretty much useless.
TL;DR
Even with the storm raven still not that great a unit, and a regular furioso would be better.
Well one and three do not look like it was Murderfang's Fault.
Number 2, I was not there to know the exact Tactical Situation, but why was he not put to kill off the Melta's and/or Las Cannons unless they were everywhere?
They were everywhere, my opponents brings a lot of oblits and all csm units are 10 man strong with melta and lascannon. In this case assaulted a 10 man unit lost a hull point in overwatch and then crushed them and next turn was blown off the board. Assaulted the 10 man unit because of setup was only unit to assault.
Also the 1st and the 3rd were applicable in this instance where it was the method that Murderface could be possibly useful, in both cases were big issues, if he is attached to the storm raven and gets shot down, he can take serious damage and possibly become useless and by being attached to the storm raven that is the danger you take with reserves where he can be delayed to the point he will be useless.
oz of the north wrote: They were everywhere, my opponents brings a lot of oblits and all csm units are 10 man strong with melta and lascannon. In this case assaulted a 10 man unit lost a hull point in overwatch and then crushed them and next turn was blown off the board. Assaulted the 10 man unit because of setup was only unit to assault.
Also the 1st and the 3rd were applicable in this instance where it was the method that Murderface could be possibly useful, in both cases were big issues, if he is attached to the storm raven and gets shot down, he can take serious damage and possibly become useless and by being attached to the storm raven that is the danger you take with reserves where he can be delayed to the point he will be useless.
Well if I can get a game or two in before Christmas I will defiantly give him a try with the Stormraven and a :landing pad and see how that goes, but my luck had been bad with flyers recently.
oz of the north wrote: They were everywhere, my opponents brings a lot of oblits and all csm units are 10 man strong with melta and lascannon. In this case assaulted a 10 man unit lost a hull point in overwatch and then crushed them and next turn was blown off the board. Assaulted the 10 man unit because of setup was only unit to assault.
Also the 1st and the 3rd were applicable in this instance where it was the method that Murderface could be possibly useful, in both cases were big issues, if he is attached to the storm raven and gets shot down, he can take serious damage and possibly become useless and by being attached to the storm raven that is the danger you take with reserves where he can be delayed to the point he will be useless.
Well if I can get a game or two in before Christmas I will defiantly give him a try with the Stormraven and a :landing pad and see how that goes, but my luck had been bad with flyers recently.
Kinda off-topic, but always felt like flying transports has always been a gamble (other than necron), but if the flier goes down then usually the units inside it will also go down.
oz of the north wrote: They were everywhere, my opponents brings a lot of oblits and all csm units are 10 man strong with melta and lascannon. In this case assaulted a 10 man unit lost a hull point in overwatch and then crushed them and next turn was blown off the board. Assaulted the 10 man unit because of setup was only unit to assault.
Also the 1st and the 3rd were applicable in this instance where it was the method that Murderface could be possibly useful, in both cases were big issues, if he is attached to the storm raven and gets shot down, he can take serious damage and possibly become useless and by being attached to the storm raven that is the danger you take with reserves where he can be delayed to the point he will be useless.
Well if I can get a game or two in before Christmas I will defiantly give him a try with the Stormraven and a :landing pad and see how that goes, but my luck had been bad with flyers recently.
Kinda off-topic, but always felt like flying transports has always been a gamble (other than necron), but if the flier goes down then usually the units inside it will also go down.
It is not that off topic...
Yes they can be, I have never had one explode yet, though I have lost a Stormwolf reduced to 0HP while still acting as a skimmer, that was annoying.
One Trick I have been trying is to Start out my Stormwolf/Stormraven on a Skyshield Landing Pad with "Ready for Take off." This has gotten me some Turn Two Assaults with my Ulrik/Blood Claw Combo.
Turn 1: Start on the Pad with the Shield up Giving you a 4++ Save. On your turn you move Max Distance on the Movement and Shooting Phases.
Turn 2: Move 6", Disembark 6" and Assault.
I am thinking of loading up the Stormraven with either Vanguard Vets or Wolf Guard and Murderfang. This should give me a Turn 2 Assault with Murderfang with only Overwatch to Deal with.
With Murderface being on the stormraven and using the ready for take-off rule. The one biggest issue I see with this, is if the enemy focuses on the storm raven and kills it before it can take off, if you go second. Murderface will pretty much become useless. A walking assault dreadnought will not do much.
oz of the north wrote: With Murderface being on the stormraven and using the ready for take-off rule. The one biggest issue I see with this, is if the enemy focuses on the storm raven and kills it before it can take off, if you go second. Murderface will pretty much become useless. A walking assault dreadnought will not do much.
The one time I had this issue so far was I received at lot of Auto-Cannon fire that bounce of either my Armor or the 4++ Shields, the a lucky shot from the Baskalisk got a ing Immobilized hit. From now on I am putting it at a little bit of an Angle so it can fire at more of the Battlefield.
Most of the shots from his Las-Cannons were aimed at Arjac and his Precision Whack-A-Mole Drill team in their LRC, that either missed or Just bounced.
Anpu, I am looking forward to hearing how Murderfang in the Raven works. I am still optimistic about it and would love to hear some good news for my Wolf opponents to try new tactics out.
Bonus is 1x vet squad with all melta guns / combi melta
First turn, 2x shield dreads drop, they soak up the initial fire power and cause serious pressure turn 1. Next the vet squad and murderfang drop, the vets go for the ideal unit that could kill murderfang.
Another part of this strategy is there needs to be threat overload, so typical best option with be TWC pushing up the center to close the gap quickly,
Between all that stuff pushing at once, something will live and do lots of damage.
... but what actual use in that scenario is Murderfang? You could accomplish the same mission goal with any other Dread. Or with another squad of Vets.
Psienesis wrote: ... but what actual use in that scenario is Murderfang? You could accomplish the same mission goal with any other Dread. Or with another squad of Vets.
Because you like the model and/or find him fun to play.
You could accomplish the same mission goal with any other Dread. Or with another squad of Vets.
He performs the same role as another dread or squad of vets. It is at a higher point cost but as anpu said, people would run him because they like the model, not because they expect him to win a tournament for them.
The point of the conversation is to find out why you would field Murderfang, what his "use" is. If you can do the same (or better) with a cheaper unit, then Murderfang is not worth his points cost.
That's the premise of the thread, basically. Murderfang isn't worth the points-cost for what he provides and how he performs. Some disagree, so we're trying to establish (or disprove) scenarios that counter the common opinion that the unit is sub-par.
He is easily worth his points if he can engage a target in melee, the key is getting him safely into combat.
The strategy I told you about is what my friend uses, and I have seen Murderfang destroy well over 800 points worth of models just by being able to enter combat with a priority target and continue to do so unmolested due to the volume of targets around him.
Murderfang isn't just a dread, it's a killing machine that is not any more difficult to kill than a regular dread.
For his points cost it has great value, the key is tapping that value appropriately on the field.
I'm sorry but any opponent that lets a dread kill 800 points of models is probably not very good at the game and could've been beaten with any list. They aren't difficult to blow up and no matter how many targets you throw at me, I'm going to make damn sure Murderfang is one of the first ones to go down before he can assault me and start chewing through whole units.
Toofast wrote: I'm sorry but any opponent that lets a dread kill 800 points of models is probably not very good at the game and could've been beaten with any list. They aren't difficult to blow up and no matter how many targets you throw at me, I'm going to make damn sure Murderfang is one of the first ones to go down before he can assault me and start chewing through whole units.
So you have never had a game where everything went right [or bad].
I once had a game where a Dread Knight wracked up 11 VPs by himself because my opponent could not hit me well, when he did hit me he mostly tanked hit Wound Roll and those he did Wound me with I made my save against.
Did that make my opponent bad with a bad list, no, it was just the way the dice gods decided that was how it was going to be that day.
Recently in a Game I had a bunch of faulty Las-Cannons, I never made a singe Pen Roll vs AV11 Vehicles.
Sometimes all the firepower in the world will not help no matter how good they are.
That could have been one of those Fluke things like that.
Toofast wrote: I'm sorry but any opponent that lets a dread kill 800 points of models is probably not very good at the game and could've been beaten with any list. They aren't difficult to blow up and no matter how many targets you throw at me, I'm going to make damn sure Murderfang is one of the first ones to go down before he can assault me and start chewing through whole units.
So you have never had a game where everything went right [or bad].
I once had a game where a Dread Knight wracked up 11 VPs by himself because my opponent could not hit me well, when he did hit me he mostly tanked hit Wound Roll and those he did Wound me with I made my save against.
Did that make my opponent bad with a bad list, no, it was just the way the dice gods decided that was how it was going to be that day.
Recently in a Game I had a bunch of faulty Las-Cannons, I never made a singe Pen Roll vs AV11 Vehicles.
Sometimes all the firepower in the world will not help no matter how good they are.
That could have been one of those Fluke things like that.
Though in this case a dreadknight is much more survivable than a 3 HP dreadnought. 1 Meltagun can reliably take down murderfang or atleast make him useless. Where the best a single meltagun can do against a dreadknight is take a wound off which can be saved with an invunerable save which the murderfang does not have.
You are right, oz. But what anpu is saying is that having someone with anecdotal evidence of murderfang being effective (like Konrax gave us) might be a positive contribution to the thread. It is easy to theory away on how easy it is to kill murderfang and have him be useless, so nobody here is trying him out and possibly coming up with results that defy the common conception that he is useless. Just because he can theoretically be killed by a single meltagun shot doesn't mean that he cannot cause some significant damage on the tabletop once contingencies like cover, strategic gameplay, and the randomness of actual dice-rolling becomes involved.
I usually run drop pod SW with 2 melta and a combi melta in each pod. Due to that, I've never really had an issue with an AV 13 getting into my front lines and just wrecking stuff. No matter how bad I roll, one of those 6 melta shots rolling 2D6 to pen is going to get through. If someone is playing a list that doesn't have a lot of armor pen then I'm sure Murderfang would do alright but if that's the case, there are still more effective things to spend the points on. Anyway, have fun trying to come up with a way to make him not suck.
I think the problem with that anecdotal evidence is it relies on the player being lucky. Fair enough, luck happens, but it's not good to plan on it. I avoided furiosos with lightning claws in 5th, i certainly wouldn't want to play one now. The problem is murderface is a melee dreadnought, and an expensive one at that. Unless that forgeworld drop-pod that allows assaults on the turn of deepstrike is still around, he's still going to have problems getting into melee.
Torga_DW wrote: I think the problem with that anecdotal evidence is it relies on the player being lucky. Fair enough, luck happens, but it's not good to plan on it. I avoided furiosos with lightning claws in 5th, i certainly wouldn't want to play one now. The problem is murderface is a melee dreadnought, and an expensive one at that. Unless that forgeworld drop-pod that allows assaults on the turn of deepstrike is still around, he's still going to have problems getting into melee.
All true. But we are playing a game in which dice decide a lot of outcomes. Luck is inherently a part of the game, since nobody is rolling enough dice during a game to expect results that perfectly conform to statistical expectations.
It is clear that the overall review for murderfang is negative. No arguments here on that. I just think that people are jumping on the "unusable" train without really trying it out. Is there a way he might work that people actually try before it is written off by mathhammering? Many people felt Lictors were near useless, then OrdoSean wins a tournament with the Deathleaper assassin formation.
I think that Bjorn plus Murderfang is an interesting possibility. Both are highly dangerous if left unmolested.
If he goes after Murderfang, you protect the pricier Bjorn from harm.
If he goes after Bjorn, he's less likely to get the kill and Murderfang gets to jump into his lines.
Add in a few other threats that might reach his lines on turn 2 (Thunderwolves, Fenresian Wolves, Swiftclaws, Skyclaws, Stormwolf on a Skyshield, forward deployed Landraider full of pain bringers, drop pod saturation, etc) and Murderfang either gets into combat, or is a sacrificial unit that, while pricey, is still cheaper than a lot of the other things you want to send in.
Jefffar wrote: I think that Bjorn plus Murderfang is an interesting possibility. Both are highly dangerous if left unmolested.
If he goes after Murderfang, you protect the pricier Bjorn from harm.
If he goes after Bjorn, he's less likely to get the kill and Murderfang gets to jump into his lines.
Add in a few other threats that might reach his lines on turn 2 (Thunderwolves, Fenresian Wolves, Swiftclaws, Skyclaws, Stormwolf on a Skyshield, forward deployed Landraider full of pain bringers, drop pod saturation, etc) and Murderfang either gets into combat, or is a sacrificial unit that, while pricey, is still cheaper than a lot of the other things you want to send in.
The biggest issue I see with this is that is nearly 600 pts combined, if not more and a sacrificial unit of his cost is a little extensive.
oz of the north wrote: The biggest issue I see with this is that is nearly 600 pts combined, if not more and a sacrificial unit of his cost is a little extensive.
I agree it's expensive as a sacrificial unit, but, when the unit you are keeping alive by its sacrifice is Bjorn, it's probably worth it.
Murderfang is built to grab attention. He looks crazy, his name has the word murder in it. His weapon has the word murder in it. He has a bunch of scary rules that stack on each other to do horrible things to the enemy if he gets close enough.Everything about him is designed to draw fire in a hurry.
Pair him with something else that is more important to your game plan than him but is far less attention grabbing. Either the enemy takes the bait and kills Murderfang letting your important unit live, or he has to deal with Murderfang charging his lines.
This is the best use. Some of you are talking threat saturation, I think misdirection and tactical dilemmas.
Good point Jefffar. A unit doesn't necessarily have to earn his points back in kills to be worth it. We cannot look at this guy as a stand alone unit, but what he brings to the rest of the army and what decisions he forces your opponent to consider.
I would barely consider him a distraction, with how easy he is to take down or make useless. I mean this comes down to the list that is being played, if there is little to no anti-tank then he will do great. But if there is a decent to large amount then it would not be that difficult to kill Bjorn and him in a single round. Also for distractions sake, a shield dread would still be better just for the fact that it has the 3++ on the front arc, which murderfang lacks any saving throw.
oz of the north wrote: I would barely consider him a distraction, with how easy he is to take down or make useless. I mean this comes down to the list that is being played, if there is little to no anti-tank then he will do great. But if there is a decent to large amount then it would not be that difficult to kill Bjorn and him in a single round. Also for distractions sake, a shield dread would still be better just for the fact that it has the 3++ on the front arc, which murderfang lacks any saving throw and also it is cheaper
A key part of the distraction comes from the word murder. Say that enough and people pay attention.
I agree the Axe and shield is harder to kill and probably better against a T 7+ MC or a vehicle, but Murderfang can go full on blender of death on most non vehicle units which can't be ignored.
As for price, you are aware you need to pay for venerable before you buy the Axe and Shield right? That puts the Axe and shield dread at 10 points more than Murderfang assuming no other upgrades are purchased.
oz of the north wrote: I would barely consider him a distraction, with how easy he is to take down or make useless. I mean this comes down to the list that is being played, if there is little to no anti-tank then he will do great. But if there is a decent to large amount then it would not be that difficult to kill Bjorn and him in a single round. Also for distractions sake, a shield dread would still be better just for the fact that it has the 3++ on the front arc, which murderfang lacks any saving throw and also it is cheaper
A key part of the distraction comes from the word murder. Say that enough and people pay attention.
I agree the Axe and shield is harder to kill and probably better against a T 7+ MC or a vehicle, but Murderfang can go full on blender of death on most non vehicle units which can't be ignored.
As for price, you are aware you need to pay for venerable before you buy the Axe and Shield right? That puts the Axe and shield dread at 10 points more than Murderfang assuming no other upgrades are purchased.
At first I thought that Murderfang was much more expensive than first thought, after actually looking at points he is cheaper, but for that 10 points you get a model that his drastically more likely to last more than 1 turn, also if does get into assault can last 2 turns of combat instead of completely annihilating everything. So will not be stuck in the open for another opponents turn.
graywater wrote: Good point Jefffar. A unit doesn't necessarily have to earn his points back in kills to be worth it. We cannot look at this guy as a stand alone unit, but what he brings to the rest of the army and what decisions he forces your opponent to consider.
This. I've been thinking a bit more about Murderfang, and I think he'd do very well in the situations Anpu describes: a mass podding list. His greatest asset I can see is that he's significantly cheaper than an average kitted-out GH squad, but his potential damage is enough that he can easily draw fire from those units. His survivability is definitely a major issue though.
Also worth noting, when he drops he does have a heavy flamer. Even if he does nothing else all game, he could potentially cause some damage to Pathfinders or the like with that... too bad he lacks smoke launchers though.
graywater wrote: Good point Jefffar. A unit doesn't necessarily have to earn his points back in kills to be worth it. We cannot look at this guy as a stand alone unit, but what he brings to the rest of the army and what decisions he forces your opponent to consider.
This. I've been thinking a bit more about Murderfang, and I think he'd do very well in the situations Anpu describes: a mass podding list. His greatest asset I can see is that he's significantly cheaper than an average kitted-out GH squad, but his potential damage is enough that he can easily draw fire from those units. His survivability is definitely a major issue though.
Also worth noting, when he drops he does have a heavy flamer. Even if he does nothing else all game, he could potentially cause some damage to Pathfinders or the like with that... too bad he lacks smoke launchers though.
If you can get a Rune Priest near him with Tempest Wrath and/or Storm Caller that can help a lot, and JotWW can also be used to take out specific threat like Las Cannons and Melta Weapons.
Jefffar wrote: But if I want the opponents attention a cheaper unit with a higher damage output potential fits the bill that much better.
It fits the bill better because it means your opponent is making the most use of their firepower... this is not a good thing If Murderface dies before he reaches CC, his only contribution is that he died so "other things" could live... but if those "other things" were less points per wound/HP and/or able to do some damage before they died... you should have just taken more "other things" instead of Murderface. You opponent dedicates more high S firepower to Murderface than TWC or Axe Dreads? Except TWC and Axe Dreads are capable of withstanding more high S shots so that's not a good outcome. They dedicate shooting to Murderface instead of a shooty Dread? But the shooty Dread is more likely to get a shot off and actually do some damage before it gets blown away and (depending on loadout) is possibly cheaper... so again, not a good outcome.
The only one that might fly is Bjorn, yeah, I'd rather them dedicate high S shots to Murderface than Bjorn... but they're both horrible alternatives especially when you consider just how easy it is to kill Murderface, it's not like the "distraction" will last, most armies I've met could easily kill Murderface in a single round of shooting. Taking both Bjorn and Murderface is 335pts worth of 2 not so hard to kill Dreads, Bjorn is better with his AV13 front and 5+ inv, but still more than I'd normally be willing to spend on 2 units that are so easy to kill and are unlikely to make much of an impact before they die.
, again saved the shots with shield, then a heavey weapons team with autocannons shot again and then nothing, all shots faild to pen or even glance, then my opponet begun to show some nervousness, more shoots from the quimeras big lassers and nothing, that was the moment he descide to shoot everything, 15 min later of pure imperial guard shooting wrath and my dread was only one 
man! Hahaha! How did you keep a straight face!"
