Greetings all, A fellow gamer and I are having a disagreement over Commanders Pask's and his units ability to re-roll gets hot and also scatter dice and distance on blast templates. I would greatly appreciate some rule citing and how people have dealt with this situation in there local group. Thank you for your time.

Does he have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls? If so he can re-roll the scatter with Blasts.

Not sure on the wording for Gets Hot (Eldar and Nids never Get Hot), but I assume it is similar to Blasts and re-rolls.

It depends on your interpretation of the RAW.
The Preferred Enemy rule lets you re-roll failed To Hit and To Wound on rolls of 1. Its not a carte blanche re-roll to hit.

There is ambiguity in the wording of the Gets Hot and Re-Rolls, and Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls rules, as to if Preferred Enemy qualifies.

GW needs to clarify this one.

Gets Hot and Re-rolls

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1; it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit.

How is this not clear ?

Preferred Enemy

Many of the galaxy’s warriors train hard to overcome a particular foe, allowing them to predict the enemy’s battle-stances and thus land a blow or shot with greater ease.

This rule is often presented as Preferred Enemy (X) where X identifies a specific type of foe. If the special rule does not specify a type of foe, then everyone is a Preferred Enemy of the unit. A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy. This applies both to shooting and close combat attacks.

Very clearly it does not affect blasts whatsoever. Again, perfectly clear.

Blasts and rerolls states otherwise Morgoth.

if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter. This is absolutely irrefutable.

Buddha - there is no ambiguity. There is no requirement to have any specific level of reroll, just an ability to reroll, therefore PE applies.

You also reroll Gets Hot!

nosferatu1001 wrote:
if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter.

This is not the same as being able to re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1.

morgoth wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter.

This is not the same as being able to re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1.

Blast and Re-Rolls doesn't care how well you can reroll, just that you can

Blast Weapons and Re-rolls

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

Does the model have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit ?
Does it choose to do so ?

In my opinion, the model doesn't have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit, it only has the ability to re-roll its failed To Hit rolls of 1.

It's a lot more specific and also quite different in both meaning and effect.

I conclude that it does not have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit but a minor similar ability, and therefore cannot use it for blasts.

morgoth wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter.

This is not the same as being able to re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1.

So you're of the opinion that only Twin-Linked allows you to re-roll scatter?

A normal re-roll (Prescience for example) requires a miss before it can be re-rolled. Something not possible with a Blast.

So if you claim it can't re-roll because a 1 wasn't rolled, then no re-rolls can be used to gain a re-roll from a Blast, from any ability.

rigeld2 wrote:

morgoth wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter.

This is not the same as being able to re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1.

So you're of the opinion that only Twin-Linked allows you to re-roll scatter?

I'm of the opinion that being able to re-roll a failed To Hit roll of 1 is not the same as being able to re-roll To Hit rolls.

Arguably, the intent in the case of any ability allowing to re-roll failed To Hit rolls would be the same as Twin-Linked, but the wording may not make those two equal.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blasts and rerolls states otherwise Morgoth.

if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter. This is absolutely irrefutable.

Buddha - there is no ambiguity. There is no requirement to have any specific level of reroll, just an ability to reroll, therefore PE applies.

You also reroll Gets Hot!

Nosferatu - As you can see by the dissenting replies, its not irrefutable. Thats just your interpretation of the RAW.

I agree with Morgoth; re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1, and re-roll To Hit, are arguably not the same thing, and therefore the ambiguity, when applied to Gets Hot and Scatter.

BuddhaTattoo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blasts and rerolls states otherwise Morgoth.

if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter. This is absolutely irrefutable.

Buddha - there is no ambiguity. There is no requirement to have any specific level of reroll, just an ability to reroll, therefore PE applies.

You also reroll Gets Hot!

Nosferatu - As you can see by the dissenting replies, its not irrefutable. Thats just your interpretation of the RAW.

I agree with Morgoth; re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1, and re-roll To Hit, are arguably not the same thing, and therefore the ambiguity, when applied to Gets Hot and Scatter.

If you have the ability to re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1, do you have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls?

It's a Yes or No question, as posed by the Blast rules. Please answer it.

rigeld2 wrote:

BuddhaTattoo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blasts and rerolls states otherwise Morgoth.

if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter. This is absolutely irrefutable.

Buddha - there is no ambiguity. There is no requirement to have any specific level of reroll, just an ability to reroll, therefore PE applies.

You also reroll Gets Hot!

Nosferatu - As you can see by the dissenting replies, its not irrefutable. Thats just your interpretation of the RAW.

I agree with Morgoth; re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1, and re-roll To Hit, are arguably not the same thing, and therefore the ambiguity, when applied to Gets Hot and Scatter.

If you have the ability to re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1, do you have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls?

It's a Yes or No question, as posed by the Blast rules. Please answer it.

I roll a 2. Do I have the ability to reroll To Hits?

It comes down to how you interpret that statement. Neither side will budge on it. Discuss it with your gaming group and come up with your own rule until a FAQ hits

Fragile wrote:
I roll a 2. Do I have the ability to reroll To Hits?

Since that's literally impossible in the given scenario it's offtopic at best. Please stay on topic.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
I roll a 2. Do I have the ability to reroll To Hits?

Since that's literally impossible in the given scenario it's offtopic at best. Please stay on topic.

Since it disproves the entire point it is relevant.

the model with PE has the ability to reroll its failed to hit rolls of 1.

not its failed to hit rolls.

if a blast cannot roll a 1 to fail, then it cannot invoke the rule of preferred enemy to reroll a result it never had.

if the blast failed its to hit roll of 1 it could then reroll scatter, as it would get the reroll to hit from the failed to hit roll of 1.

however blast weapons do not roll to hit, therefore it can never roll a 1 to hit.

When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit.

from preferred enemy..

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy.

as blasts cannot roll a 1 to hit, they cannot get a reroll to hit, models that fail to hit rolls without rolling a 1 do not get a reroll, therefore the reroll is contingent upon rolling a 1 to hit, which blasts cannot ever do.

blasts of course benefit from the reroll of the wound roll portion of PE.

theres many non blast shooting attacks that fail to hit on rolls other than 1. that they are not given rerolls shows that its intended you have to roll a 1 to fail to get the reroll of that attack.

blaktoof wrote:
if a blast cannot roll a 1 to fail, then it cannot invoke the rule of preferred enemy to reroll a result it never had.

A blast does not fail To Hit rolls either.

If you follow this logic, then you must also accept that other abilities that grant re-rolls cannot be used to re-roll scatter either (prescience for example), as they require failed To Hit rolls in order to grant a re-roll.

rigeld2 wrote:

BuddhaTattoo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blasts and rerolls states otherwise Morgoth.

if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter. This is absolutely irrefutable.

Buddha - there is no ambiguity. There is no requirement to have any specific level of reroll, just an ability to reroll, therefore PE applies.

You also reroll Gets Hot!

Nosferatu - As you can see by the dissenting replies, its not irrefutable. Thats just your interpretation of the RAW.

I agree with Morgoth; re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1, and re-roll To Hit, are arguably not the same thing, and therefore the ambiguity, when applied to Gets Hot and Scatter.

If you have the ability to re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1, do you have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls?

It's a Yes or No question, as posed by the Blast rules. Please answer it.

No you don't.

morgoth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

BuddhaTattoo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blasts and rerolls states otherwise Morgoth.

if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter. This is absolutely irrefutable.

Buddha - there is no ambiguity. There is no requirement to have any specific level of reroll, just an ability to reroll, therefore PE applies.

You also reroll Gets Hot!

Nosferatu - As you can see by the dissenting replies, its not irrefutable. Thats just your interpretation of the RAW.

I agree with Morgoth; re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1, and re-roll To Hit, are arguably not the same thing, and therefore the ambiguity, when applied to Gets Hot and Scatter.

If you have the ability to re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1, do you have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls?

It's a Yes or No question, as posed by the Blast rules. Please answer it.

No you don't.

THen you have just made an incorrect statement. You DO have the abilty to reroll your tohits, just not all of them.

Yes, to hit and to hit of 1 are not the same. However, that isnt important in the slightest. What IS important is that the rule granting the reroll only states you have the ABILITY to reroll to hit, and places no limits on how much of your to hit you need to reroll to qualify- which you demonstrably do.

It is an unqualified statement that you are treating as qualifed. Prove it is qualified. Page and graph.

Buddha - there is dissent, but plain RULES that dissent is wrong. The actual rules are indisputable, but some refuse to read the written rule as is, and inject other meaning that isnt prsent - like morgoth, when they claim (by assertion of their argument) that the requirement has a qualifier when none is present.

This topic is over.


Either you believe that "the ability to re roll your To Hit rolls" and "the ability to re roll some To Hit rolls under specific conditions" is the same thing (which by RAW never happens), or you don't.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
I roll a 2. Do I have the ability to reroll To Hits?

Since that's literally impossible in the given scenario it's offtopic at best. Please stay on topic.

Since it disproves the entire point it is relevant.

Since you can't roll a 2 To Hit with a Blast weapon, it's not relevant. I'm sure you've read the Blast rule that says they don't roll To Hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
the model with PE has the ability to reroll its failed to hit rolls of 1.

not its failed to hit rolls.

The latter is not what the Blast rule asks for. Please use actual rules in your argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

BuddhaTattoo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blasts and rerolls states otherwise Morgoth.

if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter. This is absolutely irrefutable.

Buddha - there is no ambiguity. There is no requirement to have any specific level of reroll, just an ability to reroll, therefore PE applies.

You also reroll Gets Hot!

Nosferatu - As you can see by the dissenting replies, its not irrefutable. Thats just your interpretation of the RAW.

I agree with Morgoth; re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1, and re-roll To Hit, are arguably not the same thing, and therefore the ambiguity, when applied to Gets Hot and Scatter.

If you have the ability to re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1, do you have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls?

It's a Yes or No question, as posed by the Blast rules. Please answer it.

No you don't.

So if I'm firing a non-Blast weapon and roll a 1, I'm not allowed to re-roll my To Hit?
Funny, the rule says I am.

morgoth wrote:
This topic is over.


Either you believe that "the ability to re roll your To Hit rolls" and "the ability to re roll some To Hit rolls under specific conditions" is the same thing (which by RAW never happens), or you don't.

No, thats just your failure to understand when a difference is relevant, and when one isnt. ANd where an unconditional requirement can be met by something that is conditional.

If I say you can do X as long as Y is true, even if you only do a subset of Y then as I made an unqualified statement you have still fulfilled Y, and can do X. Your claim is that they didnt make an unqualified statement (strictly a lie; the statement is unconditional) but one that is conditional. Which is false. You cannot rebut this - indeed, you havent actually made any attempt to, jut a bunch of assertions leading nowhere.

Youre saying that despite Y being unconditional, youre going to ,make up conditions to point to, while being conveniently unable to cite where these conditions come from as per the forum tenets.

rigeld2 wrote:

So if I'm firing a non-Blast weapon and roll a 1, I'm not allowed to re-roll my To Hit?
Funny, the rule says I am.

If you need to reword a rule to have it agree with you, that means you're wrong.

Here's a yes/no question for you:

Blast Weapons and Re-rolls

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

Does the model have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit ?

morgoth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

So if I'm firing a non-Blast weapon and roll a 1, I'm not allowed to re-roll my To Hit?
Funny, the rule says I am.

If you need to reword a rule to have it agree with you, that means you're wrong.

Here's a yes/no question for you:

Blast Weapons and Re-rolls

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

Does the model have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit ?

Yes.

in the case of preferred enemy you need to roll a 1 to get a reroll, if you did not roll a 1 to hit do you get a reroll? nope.

so no reroll for blasts.

things that give a blanket "reroll to hit" require nothing to be rolled, and have no condition that needs to be met before the attack has a reroll available to use.

therefore they work as per "blasts and reroll to hits" as the blast attack actually has a reroll at that point unlike the preferred enemy example.

blaktoof wrote:
things that give a blanket "reroll to hit" require nothing to be rolled, and have no condition that needs to be met before the attack has a reroll available to use.

No such thing. Other than Twin-Linked (which has a special exception) everything requires a failed To Hit roll.
Double Standard much? You're ignoring one qualifier and insisting another is relevant.

RaW: Blasts and rerolls only covers "pure re-rolls", such as Fateweaver's re-roll. Re-rolls granted by "Misses" or "1 To Hit" have a condition which blasts cannot abide by.
Only TL will allow Blasts to re-roll. (And Fateweaver).

HIWPI: A Miss for a blast can easily be interpreted from how Twin-Linked works. Re-rolls granted by "missed" To Hits will let you re-roll Blasts.
PE, Earth Caste Array, Pask and the rest do not let you re-roll Blasts.

I do understand the other position, but cannot agree that PE allows Blast re-rolls (per my interpretation of Intent)

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
things that give a blanket "reroll to hit" require nothing to be rolled, and have no condition that needs to be met before the attack has a reroll available to use.

No such thing. Other than Twin-Linked (which has a special exception) everything requires a failed To Hit roll.
Double Standard much? You're ignoring one qualifier and insisting another is relevant.

so something that never rolled a 1 to get a reroll you feel gets the reroll?

If a normal unit with PE rolls a 2 to hit, do they have rerolls to hit with PE?

blaktoof wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
things that give a blanket "reroll to hit" require nothing to be rolled, and have no condition that needs to be met before the attack has a reroll available to use.

No such thing. Other than Twin-Linked (which has a special exception) everything requires a failed To Hit roll.
Double Standard much? You're ignoring one qualifier and insisting another is relevant.

so something that never rolled a 1 to get a reroll you feel gets the reroll?

If a normal unit with PE rolls a 2 to hit, do they have rerolls to hit with PE?

And if something with Prescience doesn't miss, it doesn't get a re-roll.

There's a condition attached to that as well, which can't be met with a blast.

You can never "fail a To Hit roll" witha Blast, therefore you can never get a re-roll from Prescience by this logic.

blaktoof wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
things that give a blanket "reroll to hit" require nothing to be rolled, and have no condition that needs to be met before the attack has a reroll available to use.

No such thing. Other than Twin-Linked (which has a special exception) everything requires a failed To Hit roll.
Double Standard much? You're ignoring one qualifier and insisting another is relevant.

so something that never rolled a 1 to get a reroll you feel gets the reroll?

If a normal unit with PE rolls a 2 to hit, do they have rerolls to hit with PE?

So something that never fails a To Hit roll gets a re-roll?

Do you really not see the double standard you're applying?

rigeld2 wrote:

morgoth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

So if I'm firing a non-Blast weapon and roll a 1, I'm not allowed to re-roll my To Hit?
Funny, the rule says I am.

If you need to reword a rule to have it agree with you, that means you're wrong.

Here's a yes/no question for you:

Blast Weapons and Re-rolls

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

Does the model have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit ?

Yes.

Then that means you're in the camp that thinks having "the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" is the same thing as being allowed to re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1 against a specific enemy - when clearly both have vastly different effects.

Good for you.

morgoth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

morgoth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

So if I'm firing a non-Blast weapon and roll a 1, I'm not allowed to re-roll my To Hit?
Funny, the rule says I am.

If you need to reword a rule to have it agree with you, that means you're wrong.

Here's a yes/no question for you:

Blast Weapons and Re-rolls

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

Does the model have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit ?

Yes.

Then that means you're in the camp that thinks having "the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" is the same thing as being allowed to re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1 against a specific enemy - when clearly both have vastly different effects.

Good for you.

Incorrect. I'm in the camp that thinks that adding quality of the re-roll isn't in the Blast rule that you quoted. You're insisting it is. You've failed to prove so.

rigeld2 wrote:

morgoth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

morgoth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

So if I'm firing a non-Blast weapon and roll a 1, I'm not allowed to re-roll my To Hit?
Funny, the rule says I am.

If you need to reword a rule to have it agree with you, that means you're wrong.

Here's a yes/no question for you:

Blast Weapons and Re-rolls

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

Does the model have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit ?

Yes.

Then that means you're in the camp that thinks having "the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" is the same thing as being allowed to re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1 against a specific enemy - when clearly both have vastly different effects.

Good for you.

Incorrect. I'm in the camp that thinks that adding quality of the re-roll isn't in the Blast rule that you quoted. You're insisting it is. You've failed to prove so.

you have failed to show any rules support that you get a reroll to hit with perferred enemy unless you roll a 1.

if a model rolls a miss that is not a 1 does it get a reroll? nope.

the reroll is for rolling 1 to hit, which blast weapons cannot do, therefore RAW no reroll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
things that give a blanket "reroll to hit" require nothing to be rolled, and have no condition that needs to be met before the attack has a reroll available to use.

No such thing. Other than Twin-Linked (which has a special exception) everything requires a failed To Hit roll.
Double Standard much? You're ignoring one qualifier and insisting another is relevant.

so something that never rolled a 1 to get a reroll you feel gets the reroll?

If a normal unit with PE rolls a 2 to hit, do they have rerolls to hit with PE?

And if something with Prescience doesn't miss, it doesn't get a re-roll.

There's a condition attached to that as well, which can't be met with a blast.

You can never "fail a To Hit roll" witha Blast, therefore you can never get a re-roll from Prescience by this logic.

The trigger to get the reroll is rolling a 1 for PE, if you did not roll a 1 to hit do you get a reroll?

as for prescience its a different rule and has no bearing on PE/blasts as if a unit has it it always grants the units reroll failed to hit rolls, PE only grants rerolls on rolls of 1. Does a model with PE that rolls a non 1 to hit get a reroll? no, so no reroll.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blasts and rerolls states otherwise Morgoth.

if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter. This is absolutely irrefutable.

Buddha - there is no ambiguity. There is no requirement to have any specific level of reroll, just an ability to reroll, therefore PE applies.

You also reroll Gets Hot!

God I love this argument, it makes my ammo runts happy.

I can reroll blasts all game long.

blaktoof wrote:
The trigger to get the reroll is rolling a 1 for PE, if you did not roll a 1 to hit do you get a reroll?

as for prescience its a different rule and has no bearing on PE/blasts as if a unit has it it always grants the units reroll failed to hit rolls, PE only grants rerolls on rolls of 1. Does a model with PE that rolls a non 1 to hit get a reroll? no, so no reroll.

The trigger to get a re-roll is a failed To Hit roll for Prescience, if you don't fail To Hit do you get a re-roll?

It's not possible to fail a To Hit roll with a Blast. It's not possible to roll a 1 To Hit with a Blast.

If you claim you cannot re-roll with preferred enemy, then you cannot claim to get a re-roll from Prescience. Do you accept that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:
God I love this argument, it makes my ammo runts happy.

Problem with that, is you have no Re-roll at all unless you actually use an ammo runt.

this argument again....

ok, for those opposed to the re-rolling blast when you have preferred enemy

the rule for blasts getting a re-roll requires the firing model to have the capacity for a re-roll. that's it, nothing more, nothing less.

the stipulation for preferred enemy to function is that you are shooting at the enemy to which you have preference.

therefor you have the capacity for a re-roll. since the blast re-roll only cares that you have the capacity for a re-roll you may re-roll the blast weapon scatter roll.

there is no stipulation within the rule that states that the value of the re-roll (the ability to re-roll all misses vs the ability to re-roll a particular result) effects the blast's re-roll rule to trigger.

If you believe there is, please provide a page reference and paragraph/quote that states that the value of a re-roll matters when referring to blasts.

 grendel083 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The trigger to get the reroll is rolling a 1 for PE, if you did not roll a 1 to hit do you get a reroll?

as for prescience its a different rule and has no bearing on PE/blasts as if a unit has it it always grants the units reroll failed to hit rolls, PE only grants rerolls on rolls of 1. Does a model with PE that rolls a non 1 to hit get a reroll? no, so no reroll.

The trigger to get a re-roll is a failed To Hit roll for Prescience, if you don't fail To Hit do you get a re-roll?

It's not possible to fail a To Hit roll with a Blast. It's not possible to roll a 1 To Hit with a Blast.

If you claim you cannot re-roll with preferred enemy, then you cannot claim to get a re-roll from Prescience. Do you accept that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:
God I love this argument, it makes my ammo runts happy.

Problem with that, is you have no Re-roll at all unless you actually use an ammo runt.

and you have no reroll at all unless you actually roll a 1 to hit for PE.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
this argument again....

ok, for those opposed to the re-rolling blast when you have preferred enemy

the rule for blasts getting a re-roll requires the firing model to have the capacity for a re-roll. that's it, nothing more, nothing less.

the stipulation for preferred enemy to function is that you are shooting at the enemy to which you have preference.

therefor you have the capacity for a re-roll. since the blast re-roll only cares that you have the capacity for a re-roll you may re-roll the blast weapon scatter roll.

there is no stipulation within the rule that states that the value of the re-roll (the ability to re-roll all misses vs the ability to re-roll a particular result) effects the blast's re-roll rule to trigger.

If you believe there is, please provide a page reference and paragraph/quote that states that the value of a re-roll matters when referring to blasts.

show where a model with PE has a reroll without rolling a 1 to hit.

if a model rolls a 2,3,4,5,6 does it have a reroll?

 grendel083 wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:
God I love this argument, it makes my ammo runts happy.

Problem with that, is you have no Re-roll at all unless you actually use an ammo runt.

there is no requirement to "use" the ammo runt. That's a common misconception.

if a model buys a ammo run, then the model with a ammo runt can reroll ....

does the model with the ammo runt have the ability to reroll? Yes

As that is the only requirement for blasts the model, any model with a ammo runt can reroll blasts anytime during the game.

blaktoof, please show me where in the rules, that the value of the capacity for a re-roll, matters when rolling with blast weapons.


do you have the capacity to re-roll when you shoot against an enemy that you have preference for? YES (on a roll of a 1 to hit)

does the re-roll the scatter dice for blast weapons care how you would obtain a re-roll? NO

does the rule for re-rolling scatter dice for blasts care that you have the capacity for a re-roll? YES (you must have the capability to re-roll dice in order to re-roll scatter)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:


show where a model with PE has a reroll without rolling a 1 to hit.

if a model rolls a 2,3,4,5,6 does it have a reroll?

show me where the blast rule cares

do you agree that when a to hit roll of a 1 is made that the model can re-roll it? (your answer here is likely to be yes)

so does the model have the ability to re-roll dice? (yes it does)

so does the blast rule care? (nope)

blaktoof wrote:
and you have no reroll at all unless you actually roll a 1 to hit for PE.

You have no re-roll at all unless you fail To Hit with Prescience.

Something you cannot achieve with a blast.

Do you claim you cannot re-roll the scatter with Prescience?

 nutty_nutter wrote:
blaktoof, please show me where in the rules, that the value of the capacity for a re-roll, matters when rolling with blast weapons.

That value, or qualification, is your invention.

The rules explicitly ask for the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls.
Which is a specific ability that is different from the one given by Preferred enemy.

morgoth wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
blaktoof, please show me where in the rules, that the value of the capacity for a re-roll, matters when rolling with blast weapons.

That value, or qualification, is your invention.

The rules explicitly ask for the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls.
Which is a specific ability that is different from the one given by Preferred enemy.

the value/ qualification is not my invention at all, that is the invention of those opposed to the re-roll due to the argument basing itself on the presumption that the quality of the re-roll matters somehow

care to back that up with an actual rule, because as far as I know, the ability to re-roll a dice is the ability to re-roll...

morgoth wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
blaktoof, please show me where in the rules, that the value of the capacity for a re-roll, matters when rolling with blast weapons.

That value, or qualification, is your invention.

The rules explicitly ask for the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls.
Which is a specific ability that is different from the one given by Preferred enemy.

PE doesn't grant the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls?
Are you sure? Like - really sure?

morgoth wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
blaktoof, please show me where in the rules, that the value of the capacity for a re-roll, matters when rolling with blast weapons.

That value, or qualification, is your invention.

The rules explicitly ask for the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls.
Which is a specific ability that is different from the one given by Preferred enemy.

So I don't get to Reroll my to hit rolls with pe? Odd, the rules state otherwise

Page and graph where your made up distinction exists, or concede that you are stating hywpi. Third time of asking.

 nutty_nutter wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
blaktoof, please show me where in the rules, that the value of the capacity for a re-roll, matters when rolling with blast weapons.

That value, or qualification, is your invention.

The rules explicitly ask for the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls.
Which is a specific ability that is different from the one given by Preferred enemy.

the value/ qualification is not my invention at all, that is the invention of those opposed to the re-roll due to the argument basing itself on the presumption that the quality of the re-roll matters somehow

care to back that up with an actual rule, because as far as I know, the ability to re-roll a dice is the ability to re-roll...

There is no quality.
Your camp insists on inventing the notion of quality or qualification or value.

When very clearly there are two distinct things:

The ability to re roll To Hit rolls.

And

The ability to re roll failed To Hit rolls of 1 against a specific enemy.


You need to provide rules support to make these two very different things the same, or admit that RAW they are strictly different and therefore the Preferred Enemy USR does not affect the Blast rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
blaktoof, please show me where in the rules, that the value of the capacity for a re-roll, matters when rolling with blast weapons.

That value, or qualification, is your invention.

The rules explicitly ask for the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls.
Which is a specific ability that is different from the one given by Preferred enemy.

PE doesn't grant the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls?
Are you sure? Like - really sure?

PE does not grant "the ability to re roll To Hit rolls".

PE grants "the ability to re roll To Hit rolls of 1 against enemies from a specific faction".

Those two are very different in intent and effect and there is no reason to consider them equivalent for the purpose of the Blast rule.

morgoth - does Prescience allow Blasts to re-roll scatter?

Yes or no.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
blaktoof, please show me where in the rules, that the value of the capacity for a re-roll, matters when rolling with blast weapons.

That value, or qualification, is your invention.

The rules explicitly ask for the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls.
Which is a specific ability that is different from the one given by Preferred enemy.

So I don't get to Reroll my to hit rolls with pe? Odd, the rules state otherwise

Page and graph where your made up distinction exists, or concede that you are stating hywpi. Third time of asking.

with PE you do not get to reroll your to hit rolls.

you get to reroll to hit rolls of 1.

there is a large difference.

a model missing but not rolling a 1 with PE has no reroll.

the model has to actually roll a 1 to hit to get the reroll.

if the model does not have the reroll how are they getting to reroll?

a model rolls a 2 and misses with PE, does it get a reroll? No, it did not roll a 1.

therefore no reroll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
morgoth - does Prescience allow Blasts to re-roll scatter?

Yes or no.

Whether or not prescience allows blasts to reroll has nothing to do with PE which is the question of this thread.

regardless, in the case of prescience the only time we are told RAW that a blast misses is if it scatters off table. A miss is the result of a faild to hit roll, so under the hypothetical situation a model has prescience and it scatters off table RAW it has missed, or failed to hit, and may reroll.

Other instances where the blast marker scatters so it does not hit any models, we are not told RAW that not hitting a model is a miss. Logically it seems reasonable that if you did not hit any models, that you did indeed miss, and this would allow a reroll as a miss is a failed to hit roll, this is a RAI point.

despite all of that, the rules for prescience have nothing to do with preferred enemy as one grants reroll to failed to hit rolls at all times the model has the rule.

the other grants rerolls only at times when the model rolls a 1 to hit.

It does become relevent when you consider every re-roll ability comes with conditions.

Be it a failed To Hit, or the roll of a 1. There are no pure re-roll abilities (with possibly the sole exception of Fateweaver).

If you believe PE does not grant a re-roll, you must except that nothing else does either. As none of the conditions for a re-roll can be met.

If every single ability designed to give a re-roll doesn't work, you have to consider you're interpretting something incorrectly.

Actually, looking at the rules for Kairos, I don't hink he grants a scatter re-roll. Staff of Tomorrow specifically says that it is used to re-roll a single D6 (which can be part of a 2D6, 3D6, etc) but if used as a part you do not get to re-roll other dice from the group.

As such, either Re-roll and Blasts allows any To Hit re-roll, or only Twin-linked allows blasts to re-roll scatter.

morgoth wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
blaktoof, please show me where in the rules, that the value of the capacity for a re-roll, matters when rolling with blast weapons.

That value, or qualification, is your invention.

The rules explicitly ask for the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls.
Which is a specific ability that is different from the one given by Preferred enemy.

the value/ qualification is not my invention at all, that is the invention of those opposed to the re-roll due to the argument basing itself on the presumption that the quality of the re-roll matters somehow

care to back that up with an actual rule, because as far as I know, the ability to re-roll a dice is the ability to re-roll...

There is no quality.
Your camp insists on inventing the notion of quality or qualification or value.

When very clearly there are two distinct things:

The ability to re roll To Hit rolls.

And

The ability to re roll failed To Hit rolls of 1 against a specific enemy.


You need to provide rules support to make these two very different things the same, or admit that RAW they are strictly different and therefore the Preferred Enemy USR does not affect the Blast rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
blaktoof, please show me where in the rules, that the value of the capacity for a re-roll, matters when rolling with blast weapons.

That value, or qualification, is your invention.

The rules explicitly ask for the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls.
Which is a specific ability that is different from the one given by Preferred enemy.

PE doesn't grant the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls?
Are you sure? Like - really sure?

PE does not grant "the ability to re roll To Hit rolls".

PE grants "the ability to re roll To Hit rolls of 1 against enemies from a specific faction".

Those two are very different in intent and effect and there is no reason to consider them equivalent for the purpose of the Blast rule.

No one is considering them equivalent. That's your continual "mistake" in this thread, to divert away from the real misunderstanding you have.

If I tell you do x while y, and y is unconditional, does a sub of y fulfil y? Yes. By definition. Keep clutching though, and failing to cite a single relevant rule..

 grendel083 wrote:
It does become relevent when you consider every re-roll ability comes with conditions.

Be it a failed To Hit, or the roll of a 1. There are no pure re-roll abilities (with possibly the sole exception of Fateweaver).

If you believe PE does not grant a re-roll, you must except that nothing else does either. As none of the conditions for a re-roll can be met.

If every single ability designed to give a re-roll doesn't work, you have to consider you're interpretting something incorrectly.

Ammo runts allow you to reroll 'one to hit roll' a hit, a miss, doesn't matter, the runt can reroll it.

Twin link is the one ability that can reroll blasts and that is undeniable.

so the two abilities that can reroll blasts are runts & twin link. Runts can reroll to hit rolls, all others can only reroll failed to hit rolls, or a numerical value of a to hit roll.

Good spot, I hadn't noticed the runt was unconditional before.

Does a model with Preferred enemy (orks) get to re-roll blast scatters when firing at Space Marines?

I mean, if the 'value' or 'quality' or whatever doesn't matter, only the ability to have a re-roll, then you don't even need to be shooting at the right type of enemy. You have a qualified re-roll, you might not have triggered the conditions to use it, but all that matters is that you have a re-roll. Right?


I'm sure no-one agrees with that, because it is ridiculous. So to those supporting the idea that PE gives re-rolls: why would you be allowed to discount the requirement of rolling a 1 to hit, why are you not also allowed to discount the requirement of shooting at that particular type of enemy?

Trasvi wrote:
Does a model with Preferred enemy (orks) get to re-roll blast scatters when firing at Space Marines?

I mean, if the 'value' or 'quality' or whatever doesn't matter, only the ability to have a re-roll, then you don't even need to be shooting at the right type of enemy. You have a qualified re-roll, you might not have triggered the conditions to use it, but all that matters is that you have a re-roll. Right?


I'm sure no-one agrees with that, because it is ridiculous. So to those supporting the idea that PE gives re-rolls: why would you be allowed to discount the requirement of rolling a 1 to hit, why are you not also allowed to discount the requirement of shooting at that particular type of enemy?

no because when firing at the space marine you don't have the ability to re-roll. you would only have the option of the re-roll when shooting at the unit to which you have preference


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:


PE does not grant "the ability to re roll To Hit rolls".

PE grants "the ability to re roll To Hit rolls of 1 against enemies from a specific faction".

Those two are very different in intent and effect and there is no reason to consider them equivalent for the purpose of the Blast rule.

had to laugh at this.

'PE does not grant "the ability to re roll To Hit rolls"'

PE grants "the ability to re roll To Hit rolls of 1 against enemies from a specific faction".

have another try

 nutty_nutter wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
Does a model with Preferred enemy (orks) get to re-roll blast scatters when firing at Space Marines?

I mean, if the 'value' or 'quality' or whatever doesn't matter, only the ability to have a re-roll, then you don't even need to be shooting at the right type of enemy. You have a qualified re-roll, you might not have triggered the conditions to use it, but all that matters is that you have a re-roll. Right?


I'm sure no-one agrees with that, because it is ridiculous. So to those supporting the idea that PE gives re-rolls: why would you be allowed to discount the requirement of rolling a 1 to hit, why are you not also allowed to discount the requirement of shooting at that particular type of enemy?

no because when firing at the space marine you don't have the ability to re-roll. you would only have the option of the re-roll when shooting at the unit to which you have preference

If you don't roll a 1 you also don't have the ability to re-roll.
Its 2 conditions that you have to fulfill. Why are you allowing people to discount the requirement to roll a 1, but not the requirement to shoot at a particular enemy?

In your highlighted text, you purposefully discount the second half of the sentence.

They actually get the ability to re roll(To hit rolls of 1 against enemies from a specific faction).

sirlynchmob wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
It does become relevent when you consider every re-roll ability comes with conditions.

Be it a failed To Hit, or the roll of a 1. There are no pure re-roll abilities (with possibly the sole exception of Fateweaver).

If you believe PE does not grant a re-roll, you must except that nothing else does either. As none of the conditions for a re-roll can be met.

If every single ability designed to give a re-roll doesn't work, you have to consider you're interpretting something incorrectly.

Ammo runts allow you to reroll 'one to hit roll' a hit, a miss, doesn't matter, the runt can reroll it.

Twin link is the one ability that can reroll blasts and that is undeniable.

so the two abilities that can reroll blasts are runts & twin link. Runts can reroll to hit rolls, all others can only reroll failed to hit rolls, or a numerical value of a to hit roll.

Yeah i'd go with that for a conclusion in RaW.

 Happyjew wrote:
Actually, looking at the rules for Kairos, I don't hink he grants a scatter re-roll. Staff of Tomorrow specifically says that it is used to re-roll a single D6 (which can be part of a 2D6, 3D6, etc) but if used as a part you do not get to re-roll other dice from the group.

As such, either Re-roll and Blasts allows any To Hit re-roll, or only Twin-linked allows blasts to re-roll scatter.

Going by the same argument as one of the sides: Is that not a Re-roll with no restrictions? Would Blasts & Re-roll not take that statement and apply it? (Even though the 2D6 reference)

In any case, i'm still waiting for an FAQ and think that these threads should lock as soon as they reach "Blast & Rerolls MUST ABSOLUTELY MEAN this or that".
I suppose that letting users who have not been part of the debate take a turn is not a bad idea either...

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Actually, looking at the rules for Kairos, I don't hink he grants a scatter re-roll. Staff of Tomorrow specifically says that it is used to re-roll a single D6 (which can be part of a 2D6, 3D6, etc) but if used as a part you do not get to re-roll other dice from the group.

As such, either Re-roll and Blasts allows any To Hit re-roll, or only Twin-linked allows blasts to re-roll scatter.

Going by the same argument as one of the sides: Is that not a Re-roll with no restrictions? Would Blasts & Re-roll not take that statement and apply it? (Even though the 2D6 reference)

In any case, i'm still waiting for an FAQ and think that these threads should lock as soon as they reach "Blast & Rerolls MUST ABSOLUTELY MEAN this or that".
I suppose that letting users who have not been part of the debate take a turn is not a bad idea either...

No. Kairos does not give you the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls. He gives the ability to re-roll a single D6 (which most To Hit rolls are).

 Happyjew wrote:
No. Kairos does not give you the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls. He gives the ability to re-roll a single D6 (which most To Hit rolls are).

Oh, i get your point: A "pure re-roll" but it's not specifically a To Hit one so it doesn't apply here?

But would using it on a To Hit roll not then make it a To Hit re-roll? I suppose you need "the ability", and that by the time you've decided to roll it, you are just doing so, and it is not an "ability".

Could we not view it as an issue: His ability lets you re-roll To Hit rolls. So until you use it, all Blast weapons "have the ability to re roll To Hit rolls", no? Because technically, with Kairos, you have "the ability to re roll (x) rolls" where x is anything. So any rules with that type of wording would be activated (as long as you use the re-roll in doing so).

Again Kairos does not have the ability to re-roll To hit rolls. He does not have the ability to re-roll To Wound rolls, Run rolls, Saving Throws, etc. He has the abiltiy to re-roll a single D6. With a note that it can be part of an Xd6 roll, but you cannot roll the other dice in that roll. So, if he fired a blast and scatter 1,6 inches, you could re-roll the 6, but not the whole thing.

Indeed, but would you then deny the fact that Unit X, of single model Y has "the ability to re-roll To Hit" with a single shot weapons?

Model Y can re-roll To Hit (if you haven't used Kairos' ability), so he would have " the ability to re roll To Hit rolls" for his plasma Pistol.

If he swaps his plasma pistol for a Rocket launcher, does his "ability" suddenly change? and why?

rigeld2 wrote:
morgoth - does Prescience allow Blasts to re-roll scatter?

Yes or no.

Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

Does that mean it has the ability to re roll To Hit rolls ? no.

So RAW, it doesn't work either. And twin link wouldn't work if it weren't for the specific mention on twin linked blast weapons.


RAI, clearly prescience and twin link allow blast re rolls as in most cases re rolling failed to hit rolls equals to re rolling To Hit rolls.

Which is still very different than re rolling just ones against a specific enemy, which is why I believe that RAI Pask does not get the Re Roll Scatter.

I don't believe the re-rolls of preferred enemy would allow a blast weapon to scatter. Lets get the rules clear first:

Blast Weapons and Re-rolls: If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast
weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

To re-roll the scatter of a blast attack, you must have permission to re-roll your attacks. Simple and with no strings attached.

Preferred Enemy: A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To
Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy.

Preferred enemy does give the ability to re-roll hits, however it only effects die with the roll of a one. To clarify: You do not have permission to re-roll a die unless it is a 1.

How this relates to blast weapons: As blast weapons never roll to hit in the conventional manner, they can never get a 1. Because they can never get a 1, they do not benefit from preferred enemy, and therefore do not qualify to re-roll their hits. As such preferred enemy would never have an interaction with blast weapons.

That's how I interpret the RAW.

HIWPI: As a house rule, alongside the normal blast scatter, we roll a single die, like to check for "gets hot!", if it is a 1 then the player may re-roll the scatter roll if they wish.
This way, the blast weapons do not get to re-roll everything, which is more powerful than the preferred enemy ability they posses, but it is also not a useless rule, allowing them to re-roll 1/6 of their shots, the same way any other weapon would.

 BlackTalos wrote:
RaW: Blasts and rerolls only covers "pure re-rolls", such as Fateweaver's re-roll. Re-rolls granted by "Misses" or "1 To Hit" have a condition which blasts cannot abide by.
Only TL will allow Blasts to re-roll. (And Fateweaver).

HIWPI: A Miss for a blast can easily be interpreted from how Twin-Linked works. Re-rolls granted by "missed" To Hits will let you re-roll Blasts.
PE, Earth Caste Array, Pask and the rest do not let you re-roll Blasts.

I do understand the other position, but cannot agree that PE allows Blast re-rolls (per my interpretation of Intent)

I was going to post pretty much exactly this. So I quoted BlackTalos instead.

Arguing about whether or not PE and prescience et al. grant rerolls or only the latter category does is just a RAI/HIWPI argument.

Which is a fine discussion to have. I also throw my hat in with Talos on this one as far as HIWPI is concerned.

@Big Blind Bill

you do not have permission to re-roll any dice unless you miss (a few exceptions exist of course)

the roll of a 1 on a to hit == rolling a 2 with a BS of 3 as far as the blast re-roll rule is concerned.

if you have permission, at all, to re-roll a dice, the blast rule kicks in and allows the re-roll.

you guys are the one's stating that the quality of the re-roll (i.e. it must be a blanket re-roll) matters. I ask for proof within the rules that this is the case and have been waiting for it for the last 2 pages.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
@Big Blind Bill
if you have permission, at all, to re-roll a dice, the blast rule kicks in and allows the re-roll..

You do not have permission. You have not rolled a 1 to hit. This is a prerequisite to gaining the ability to re-roll.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
@Big Blind Bill
if you have permission, at all, to re-roll a dice, the blast rule kicks in and allows the re-roll..

You do not have permission. You have not rolled a 1 to hit. This is a prerequisite to gaining the ability to re-roll.

And Prescience requires a failed To Hit roll. Also a prerequisite of gaining the ability to re-roll. Also not possible with a blast.

Same with the vast majority of re-roll abilities (currency the only exception being ammo runts). Do you believe none of these grant re-rolls also?

 grendel083 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
@Big Blind Bill
if you have permission, at all, to re-roll a dice, the blast rule kicks in and allows the re-roll..

You do not have permission. You have not rolled a 1 to hit. This is a prerequisite to gaining the ability to re-roll.

And Prescience requires a failed To Hit roll. Also a prerequisite of gaining the ability to re-roll. Also not possible with a blast.

Same with the vast majority of re-roll abilities (currency the only exception being ammo runts). Do you believe none of these grant re-rolls also?

These examples are not relevant to the topic. They are similar in nature, but not caused by the same rule discrepancy.

The simple fact is, PE lets you re-roll to hit rolls of 1.

Blast weapons do not roll a to hit roll at all.

How are you making the jump that you are entitled to a re-roll, when you have not fulfilled the prerequisites?

PE lets normal weapons re-roll 16% of all shots. You are arguing that it should let blast weapons re-roll 100% of them.

It is relevent.

You're reading "has the ability to re-roll To Hit" as "qualifies to re-roll To Hit rolls" - something not actually possible ever.

You're applying half the blast rule, but not the rest.

Half being "can't roll a 1 To Hit"
But missing out the part of "doesn't roll To Hit" at all.

By applying this logic, nothing can re-roll blasts.
Anything that re-rolls to hit (failed or otherwise) cannot apply, as a blast never rolls To Hit.

If you want to apply "can't roll a 1" as an argument, you have to apply "doesn't roll To Hit at all". Using half a rule doesn't cut it.
You're taking a rule allowing re-rolls, and using this logic to render it useless in all cases.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
@Big Blind Bill
if you have permission, at all, to re-roll a dice, the blast rule kicks in and allows the re-roll..

You do not have permission. You have not rolled a 1 to hit. This is a prerequisite to gaining the ability to re-roll.

And Prescience requires a failed To Hit roll. Also a prerequisite of gaining the ability to re-roll. Also not possible with a blast.

Same with the vast majority of re-roll abilities (currency the only exception being ammo runts). Do you believe none of these grant re-rolls also?

Continued arguing for prescience when it has nothing to do with the topic is odd.

even if prescience was worded "may reroll all to hit rolls"

it has no bearing on PE, because PE only gives the reroll on rolls of 1 to hit, which a blast weapon RAW can never roll, so it will never benefit from that part of PE (it would still benefit from the reroll to wound..)

the idea that "because there is a chance it could have a reroll under some circumstance that is not actually happening means it gets a reroll" is completely ludicrous.

it is the same as saying, my model has the option to buy twin linked or master crafted, therefore it rerolls scatter because its a possiblity even though it currently does not actually have a reroll. Which is utterly illogical, and has no support in the rules. many posters have demonstrated this by failing to produce any rules quote or discussion that states the model could have a reroll, instead of "blasts that have the ability to reroll"

does an attack with PE have the ability to reroll if it does not roll a 1 to hit, 100% RAW no.

therefore the blast never has the ability to reroll as it never met the requirements to get the reroll.

if a weapon was str 7 ap 2 assault 2 blast mastercrafted, would you get to reroll both shots or just one of the shots?

the obvious answer is one, because mastercrafting gives the ability to reroll 1 shot, stating that "the model could make a reroll maybe if this and this happened even though its not possible to roll that" does not mean the model gains the reroll, it does not actually have the ability to reroll the attack simply by virtue of having a special rule that under certain circumstances grants the ability to reroll, it gets the ability to reroll the attack when it meets the circumstances outlined by the special rule to get the ability to reroll, which in the case of PE is rolling a 1.


as for blasts and rerolls it states..

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

prescience

Prescience is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 12". Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

a failed to hit roll is a to hit roll, but it is a specific type of to hit roll, It is a to hit roll that did not hit something, it failed to hit. RAW we are told blasts that scatter off the table are complete misses, a miss is the result of failing a to hit roll.

One could easily argue that scoring 0 hits is the same as not hitting, which is failing to hit and could get then state that prescience grants rerolls on failed to hits. The attack is now granted a reroll.

One could not argue that scoring a hit on a unit, but only 1 hit and then asking for a reroll as there is a hit, so its not a failed to hit roll and no reroll would be granted for prescience.

prescience specifies the reroll is granted on "failed to hit rolls" so you do not get it on to hit rolls that do hit.

regardless it is a different issue than PE as one grants the ability on a to hit roll of a 1, which blasts can never get.
the other grants a reroll if the attack fails to score a hit. Which blasts can fail to do.

Prescience States "re-rolled failed To Hit rolls".

By insisting that it must qualify by rolling a 1 To Hit, you remove the ability of anything to gain a Re-Roll. If you're going to apply a rule, be consistent.

as for blasts and rerolls it states..

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

prescience

Prescience is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 12". Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

a failed to hit roll is a to hit roll, but it is a specific type of to hit roll, It is a to hit roll that did not hit something, it failed to hit. RAW we are told blasts that scatter off the table are complete misses, a miss is the result of failing a to hit roll.

One could easily argue that scoring 0 hits is the same as not hitting, which is failing to hit and could get then state that prescience grants rerolls on failed to hits. The attack is now granted a reroll.

One could not argue that scoring a hit on a unit, but only 1 hit and then asking for a reroll as there is a hit, so its not a failed to hit roll and no reroll would be granted for prescience.

prescience specifies the reroll is granted on "failed to hit rolls" so you do not get it on to hit rolls that do hit.

regardless it is a different issue than PE as one grants the ability on a to hit roll of a 1, which blasts can never get.
the other grants a reroll if the attack fails to score a hit. Which blasts can fail to do.

the above is consistent, and discusses the RAW. If you have any counter points please provide relevant rules quotes to support them.

Failing to score a hit with a blast, is completely different to a failed To Hit roll. You can't seriously claim they're the same.



A BS5 model with Prescience: what does it need to roll to qualify for a re-roll? Can it be done with a Blast?

A BS5 model with Prefered Enemy: what does it need to roll to qualify for a re-roll? Can it be done with a Blast?

Also, if you have two interpretations of a rule, and one renders all re-roll abilities useless, is there a chance it's the incorrect interpretation?

 grendel083 wrote:
If you want to apply "can't roll a 1" as an argument, you have to apply "doesn't roll To Hit at all". Using half a rule doesn't cut it.
You're taking a rule allowing re-rolls, and using this logic to render it useless in all cases.

You need to roll a 1 to be able to re-roll.

You do not even roll a die at all, so have 0% chance of rolling a 1.

Please note this quote from the Blast rule:

When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit

And then the preferred enemy rule:

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To
Hit and To Wound rolls of 1

As you never roll to hit, you can't get a 1, and are therefore unable to re-roll it.

I don't want to hear about prescience. Or other re-roll issues that will attempt to derail this. I want to know where the '1' result is, when you roll a scatter die and 2d6. If you can somehow find this, then it will give you the permission you need to re-roll blast weapons.

I see you failed to read anything I posted.

A BS5 model with prescience has to fail to hit, to get a reroll.

a BS5 Model with PE has to roll a 1 to get a reroll.

There are circumstances where a BS 5 model can fail to hit without rolling a 1.

a BS 5 Model with presceience can reroll a blast that scatters off table, or fails to hit any models as it is granted a reroll by failing to hit, and as per blasts and rerolls things that get a reroll to hit can reroll scatter+distance.

a BS 5 model with PE can never reroll the result of scatter for a blast because RAW it can never roll a 1 to hit to get the reroll to hit.

its not two interpretations of a rule, its that the qualifier for getting a reroll from each is different. I am not sure we can continue discussing this if you cannot see that.

Re-roll In some situations, the rules allow you to re-roll a dice. This is exactly what it sounds like – pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again.

Prescience- the situation that grants a re-roll from this rule is failing to hit.
Preferred enemy- the situation that grants a re-roll from this rule is rolling a 1 to hit.

two different qualifers to get the ability to reroll to hit rolls.

one of the above when you Follow the RAW is able to give a re-roll for blasts under certain situations that can actually happen, the other does not.

again regardless of prescience how do you roll a 1 to hit for a blast weapon? and if you can find something that references blasts or PE in prescience then its relavent to the topic, otherwise its pretty extreme rules lawyering.

"Fails to hit any model" is not something supported by the rules. Please don't invent rules to support an interpretation.

Failing to generate any hits with a blast is NOT the same as a Failed To Hit roll. Shortening the rule to Failed Hit is not what the rules say.

blaktoof wrote:
again regardless of prescience how do you roll a 1 to hit for a blast weapon?

The same way you roll a failed To Hit with a blast.

Not possible, you're interpretation has rendered every re-roll ability (aside from ammo runts) unusable.
Normally a good indication that it's the incorrect interpretation.

your continued inability to discuss that PE requires you to roll a 1 to hit to get the reroll in question, and a blast weapon can never do that shows that you are incorrect and utterly have no actual rules argument to support your point.

I implore you if you want to discuss prescience and if failing to hit a model due to the result of rolling dice when determining if anything is hit by a blast is the same as rolling to hit to actually start a separate topic as it is truely and unquestionably a separate topic.

regarding PE, it is unarguable that you are required to roll a 1 to hit, and blasts do not roll a 1 to hit, ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
as for failed to hit rolls = reroll to hit...

further support from RAW quotes.

If a model has a special rule that already confers it a re-roll To Hit (like a Master-crafted weapon, for example)

Weapons with the Master-crafted special rule allow the bearer to re-roll one failed roll To Hit per turn with that weapon.

master crafted is called out as confering a reroll to hit.

master crated rule states it rerolls failed to hit rolls.

rerolling a failed to hit roll, is a reroll to hit.

Two interpretations, I'm looking at a wider view for justification rather than a very narrow view.

Do you have the ability to re-roll
1). Yes, To Hit rolls of 1. It's conditional, but still a yes.
2). No, only if you roll a 1 do you gain the ability. The condition must be met first.

Two interpretations. I can see the merit in both, so I look into both. I'm looking at the wider picture of how this rule interacts with other abilities.

Doing so I note that 2. renders almost all re-roll abilities void. This leads me to believe it is the incorrect interpretation.

I won't look at a rule narrowly in a vacuum. That's no way to get the truth of the matter.

Edit: So Master-Crafted allows for a re-roll despite not meeting the conditions to grant the ability? (Ie: a failed To Hit roll which isn't possible)
Yet the condition of Prefered Enemy must be met? (Ie: rolling a 1 To Hit which isn't posdible)
Sounds like a double standard.

 grendel083 wrote:
"Fails to hit any model" is not something supported by the rules. Please don't invent rules to support an interpretation.

Failing to generate any hits with a blast is NOT the same as a Failed To Hit roll. Shortening the rule to Failed Hit is not what the rules say.

blaktoof wrote:
again regardless of prescience how do you roll a 1 to hit for a blast weapon?

The same way you roll a failed To Hit with a blast.

Not possible, you're interpretation has rendered every re-roll ability (aside from ammo runts) unusable.
Normally a good indication that it's the incorrect interpretation.

Or is that the intent?

maybe the intent is only to allow twin link and runts to reroll blasts.

Because if we ignore all the qualifiers, "a missed roll" "a roll of one" etc, we are also allowing runts to reroll blasts all game long as we can easily also ignore "one use only" Runts can reroll a to hit roll, which blasts never roll, so as blasts allow the rerolling based on having an ability, the runt never actually rerolls "a roll to hit" so it can still be used all game long.

so if your interpretation leads to crazy results, it's also a good indication that it's not the correct one.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Or is that the intent?

maybe the intent is only to allow twin link and runts to reroll blasts.

Who knows?

Let's be honest, it's two interpretations people won't ever agree on barring an FAQ.
This topic is once again going in circles.

 grendel083 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Or is that the intent?

maybe the intent is only to allow twin link and runts to reroll blasts.

Who knows?

Let's be honest, it's two interpretations people won't ever agree on barring an FAQ.
This topic is once again going in circles.

True that.

I find the lack of FAQ's in this edition, disturbing.

 grendel083 wrote:
Two interpretations, I'm looking at a wider view for justification rather than a very narrow view.

Do you have the ability to re-roll
1). Yes, To Hit rolls of 1. It's conditional, but still a yes.
2). No, only if you roll a 1 do you gain the ability. The condition must be met first.

Two interpretations. I can see the merit in both, so I look into both. I'm looking at the wider picture of how this rule interacts with other abilities.

Doing so I note that 2. renders almost all re-roll abilities void. This leads me to believe it is the incorrect interpretation.

I won't look at a rule narrowly in a vacuum. That's no way to get the truth of the matter.

However, you need to accept that there are other rule discrepancies.

You have fallen back on prescience as an example many times, but that rule itself often has people arguing over its interaction with blast weapons. Using a rule which itself is in contestation does not make for a good point of reference.

PE not working with blast weapons means exactly that. Nothing more. And nothing less.

Other rules have no bearing on this, for they have their own requirements and conditions.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I don't want to hear about prescience. Or other re-roll issues that will attempt to derail this.

It's not an attempt to derail.
It's an attempt to see if you are consistent in applying your argument.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I don't want to hear about prescience. Or other re-roll issues that will attempt to derail this.

It's not an attempt to derail.
It's an attempt to see if you are consistent in applying your argument.

Applying the exact same rule to two different problems, no matter how similar, is not logical nor does it require consistency. Each requires a different answer.

Despite both involving re-rolling dice, prescience has nothing to do with preferred enemy. Hence, it is derailing.

Still no reasoning why you should get a re-roll when you haven't rolled a 1.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I don't want to hear about prescience. Or other re-roll issues that will attempt to derail this.

It's not an attempt to derail.
It's an attempt to see if you are consistent in applying your argument.

Applying the exact same rule to two different problems, no matter how similar, is not logical nor does it require consistency. Each requires a different answer.

Um. Are you serious?

You're focusing on a requirement to happen for the re-roll to happen. I'm asking if you're going to apply that logic to every potential "re-roll" rule.
Essentially, if it's conditional (based on the To Hit roll) can it re-roll? Applying the answer to that consistently is absolutely logical, despite your insistence otherwise.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I don't want to hear about prescience. Or other re-roll issues that will attempt to derail this.

It's not an attempt to derail.
It's an attempt to see if you are consistent in applying your argument.

Applying the exact same rule to two different problems, no matter how similar, is not logical nor does it require consistency. Each requires a different answer.

Um. Are you serious?

You're focusing on a requirement to happen for the re-roll to happen. I'm asking if you're going to apply that logic to every potential "re-roll" rule.
Essentially, if it's conditional (based on the To Hit roll) can it re-roll? Applying the answer to that consistently is absolutely logical, despite your insistence otherwise.

Prescience allows all of a squads shooting to be re-rolled (100%). PE allows 1/6 (16%) of a squad's shooting to be re-rolled.

You are stating that blast weapons in both cases should be able to be re-rolled 100% of the time.

This is not the same problem as there are different factors.

With regards to their relation to blast weapons, the two rules have differing factors.

Do you now see the fallacy of your argument now? I hope so.

These two rules are different, you should not try and find one rule to fix them both, especially as both rules have separate issues.

Now, stop derailing, and answer the question. Are you rolling a 1 to hit every time you fire a blast weapon when effected by preferred enemy?

If you cannot answer this, then you really don't have an argument.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I don't want to hear about prescience. Or other re-roll issues that will attempt to derail this.

It's not an attempt to derail.
It's an attempt to see if you are consistent in applying your argument.

Applying the exact same rule to two different problems, no matter how similar, is not logical nor does it require consistency. Each requires a different answer.

Um. Are you serious?

You're focusing on a requirement to happen for the re-roll to happen. I'm asking if you're going to apply that logic to every potential "re-roll" rule.
Essentially, if it's conditional (based on the To Hit roll) can it re-roll? Applying the answer to that consistently is absolutely logical, despite your insistence otherwise.

Prescience allows all of a squads shooting to be re-rolled (100%). PE allows 1/6 (16%) of a squad's shooting to be re-rolled.

This is incorrect.
Prescience allows all of a squads failed To Hit rolls to be re-rolled.
PE also allows all of a squads failed To Hit rolls to be re-rolled if the squad is BS5.

Please word your argument correctly.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Prescience allows all of a squads shooting to be re-rolled (100%). PE allows 1/6 (16%) of a squad's shooting to be re-rolled.

False.

Prescience only gives a re-roll on a failed To Hit roll, which in all cases is less than 100%

In the case of a Bs5 model, Prescience gives a re-roll 16% of the time (1 in 6). Sound familiar?

*Clap* You are good at derailing rigeld! I will give you that.

Let's take this back to basics:

For PE you must roll a 1 to be able to re-roll it. You can not roll a 1 on a scatter die +2d6. Without a 1 you have no re-roll which would enable you to follow the blast weapon rules.

Can you explain why you feel you are entitled to a re-roll a blast, and 100% of the time at that, when you have in no way satisfied the requirement of PE.

A direct answer please.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
*Clap* You are good at derailing rigeld! I will give you that.

I wasn't aware getting someone to explain their argument was derailing.

Let's take this back to basics:

For PE you must roll a 1 to be able to re-roll it.

Incorrect. Since you've repeatedly not quoted rules correctly I'll wait for you to do so.

No answer then. I thought as much.

I have an answer to what I believe your question to be, but I don't want to make assumptions. And since you apparently refuse to actually quote rules correctly, I'd have to make assumptions.

The failure here is on you (failing to use actual rules in your arguments/questions) not me.

Just out of curiosity Bill, would you say a Blast can be re-rolled due to a model having Bs6?

Oh Please. Look back through the thread. I have quoted rules directly from the rulebook. Ad hominem in action.

To make it perfectly clear for you once again.

Preferred Enemy: A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To
Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy.

Blast: When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit. Instead, just pick one enemy
model visible to the firer and place the 3" blast marker with its hole entirely over the base
of the target model

So please, tell me how the rule that allows you to re-roll to hit rolls of a 1, has any connection to a weapon that does not use a single dice roll to hit.

Some people are focused on this part:

Blast Weapons and Re-rolls
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast
weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

Re-rolling dice to hit, and only re-rolling 1s are not the same.
Even though BS5 with both rules produce the same outcome, they do not produce the same outcome across all BS values, and therefore have to be treated differently.

Just out of curiosity Bill, would you say a Blast can be re-rolled due to a model having Bs6?

Yeah when we play that's how we do it. Its not quite fair, effectively giving a blast weapon twin linked, whereas a standard weapon would need a 6 on the re-roll, but then again it would not be fair to deny the blast weapon some kind of re-roll.
(Got to say though, I don't think this is in the RAW. It's just how we play it. Like I said earlier on, when my group plays preferred enemy blasts, we roll a separate die to determine if the shot was actually a 1, and if it was we let them re-roll it, not RAW, but its how we play it).

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Just out of curiosity Bill, would you say a Blast can be re-rolled due to a model having Bs6?

Yeah when we play that's how we do it. Its not quite fair, effectively giving a blast weapon twin linked, whereas a standard weapon would need a 6 on the re-roll, but then again it would not be fair to deny the blast weapon some kind of re-roll.

Well to talk fair for a moment, you don't think the -6 to scatter is fair enough?
And Prefered Enemy gives a "better" re-roll, if you get my meaning - a roll of a 1 followed by 6+ compared to a 1 followed by 2+ (on a Bs5+ model, even a 5+ on a Bs1 model).

Bs6 is in effect a "lesser" re-roll ability, but you'd grant that?
A Bs5 model with PE is more accurate than a Bs9 model, yet you'd give one a re-roll on blasts? But not the other?

It becomes doubly interesting if you read the Gets Hot! rule, same wording as Blast, it must have the ability to Re-Roll To Hit, yet abilities such as (but not limited to) BS6 are considered to qualify for this. Again, same wording.

And back on topic, all re-roll abilities have an extra condition that cannot be met. Take Blast out of the equation for a second:
Do you gain a re-roll:
Prefered Enemy: Yes, if you roll a 1
Prescience: Yes, if you fail To Hit
Master Crafted: Yes, if you fail To Hit
Twin-Linked: Yes, if you fail to Hit (but has it's own Blast interaction rules)
Bs6+: Yes, but requirements change. Not a true re-roll.

In all cases, an extra requirement to grant the re-roll is there. One that in each case, cannot be met when dealing with a Blast.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Oh Please. Look back through the thread. I have quoted rules directly from the rulebook. Ad hominem in action.

Pray tell - how did I insult you?

To make it perfectly clear for you once again.

Preferred Enemy: A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To
Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy.

Blast: When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit. Instead, just pick one enemy
model visible to the firer and place the 3" blast marker with its hole entirely over the base
of the target model

So please, tell me how the rule that allows you to re-roll to hit rolls of a 1, has any connection to a weapon that does not use a single dice roll to hit.

Yay for correct rules quotes! You do realize that "re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1" and "For PE you must roll a 1 to be able to re-roll it." are different, right? Just checking.

Some people are focused on this part:

Blast Weapons and Re-rolls
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast
weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

Re-rolling dice to hit, and only re-rolling 1s are not the same.
Even though BS5 with both rules produce the same outcome, they do not produce the same outcome across all BS values, and therefore have to be treated differently.

Prescience re-rolls failed To Hit rolls, not all To Hit rolls. So it is just as conditional as PE.
You're insisting that one conditional be ignored but refusing to ignore the other conditional.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Just out of curiosity Bill, would you say a Blast can be re-rolled due to a model having Bs6?

Yeah when we play that's how we do it. Its not quite fair, effectively giving a blast weapon twin linked, whereas a standard weapon would need a 6 on the re-roll, but then again it would not be fair to deny the blast weapon some kind of re-roll.

Well to talk fair for a moment, you don't think the -6 to scatter is fair enough?
And Prefered Enemy gives a "better" re-roll, if you get my meaning - a roll of a 1 followed by 6+ compared to a 1 followed by 2+ (on a Bs5+ model, even a 5+ on a Bs1 model).

Bs6 is in effect a "lesser" re-roll ability, but you'd grant that?
A Bs5 model with PE is more accurate than a Bs9 model, yet you'd give one a re-roll on blasts? But not the other?

It becomes doubly interesting if you read the Gets Hot! rule, same wording as Blast, it must have the ability to Re-Roll To Hit, yet abilities such as (but not limited to) BS6 are considered to qualify for this. Again, same wording.

And back on topic, all re-roll abilities have an extra condition that cannot be met. Take Blast out of the equation for a second:
Do you gain a re-roll:
Prefered Enemy: Yes, if you roll a 1
Prescience: Yes, if you fail To Hit
Master Crafted: Yes, if you fail To Hit
Twin-Linked: Yes, if you fail to Hit (but has it's own Blast interaction rules)
Bs6+: Yes, but requirements change. Not a true re-roll.

In all cases, an extra requirement to grant the re-roll is there. One that in each case, cannot be met when dealing with a Blast.

your point is demonstrably false by the actual rules as written.

If a model has a special rule that already confers it a re-roll To Hit (like a Master-crafted weapon, for example)

Weapons with the Master-crafted special rule allow the bearer to re-roll one failed roll To Hit per turn with that weapon.

as has been shown by the RAW for master crafted, if you have the ability to reroll failed to hit rolls it is the same as having a re-roll to hit.

re-roll failed to hit roll= ability to re-roll a hit according to the RAW.

Blast Weapons and Re-rolls
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

as you can see prescience uses the same wording as master crafted "failed to hit roll" and is equated in the rules as written as "a reroll to hit" from the section blast weapons, if the model has the ability to reroll its to hit, which it does as per having prescience. There is no actual requirement to roll to hit, just that you have the ability to reroll to hit and RAW we are shown that being able to reroll a failed to hit roll is the same as having a re-troll to hit.

therefore RAW prescience grants a reroll to hit, and may invoke the blast weapons and rerolls.

preferred enemy grants a reroll to hit if you fail a to hit roll of 1, the difference between preferred enemy and prescience which you all keep ignoring is one has no qualifier and always grants a reroll to hit, the other requires you roll a 1.

how do you roll a 1 if you do not get to roll to hit? You cannot.

the fact the rule grants the reroll on a failed to hit roll has been shown in the RAW, so no hit roll is required to be failed by prescience to get the re roll, however you still have to roll a 1 to hit with preferred enemy, which you cannot do. Therefore PE = no reroll for blasts.

So the rules let you ignore the requirements needed to gain the re-roll?

Strange, that's the point I've been trying to get through for some time.

Prescience: You get a re-roll only if the To Hit roll is failed, which isn't possible with a Blast. Yet the rules don't seem to care for this requirment, only that they "have the ability to re-roll To Hit".

So the rules don't care about one requirement, but you insist it must care about another, when the rules themselves make no distinction.

Same with Gets Hot! same wording. Allows for the re-roll wit such abilities as Bs6, when that isn't a true form of re-roll. Again the rules don't care, only that they "have the ability to re-roll To Hit" no matter how bad or distorted the re-roll is.

blaktoof wrote:
the difference between preferred enemy and prescience which you all keep ignoring is one has no qualifier and always grants a reroll to hit, the other requires you roll a 1.

Always grants a re-roll? Totally false, go read the power.

You've once again ignored that Prescience only grants a re-roll on a failed To Hit roll.
Just as with PE it has a requirement ( a miss) and the rules do not care about this requirement.
Yet you continue to insist the rules do care about requirements for re-rolls.

you were just quoted the RAW.

something that grants a re-roll on failed to hit rolls is the same as a re-roll to hit.

there is no requirement to miss to get the re-roll from prescience in regards to blast weapons, there is only the requirement that you are allowed a re-roll.

look at the quotes for master crafted above, note what they say, note they are quotes directly from the rules as written.

re-roll failed to hit roll = a re-roll to hit.

does prescience grant re-rolls on failed to hit rolls? yes then it grants a re-roll to hit, read blasts in re-rolls. Is there a requirement in blast and re-rolls to roll to hit? no, because blasts do not roll to hit.

does PE grant re-rolls to hit? yes if you roll a 1. So you get to re-roll failed to hit rolls of 1 with PE. If you do so you get a re-roll. Did you roll a 1?

nope.

prescience= you have the re-roll option for failing before you roll. = you have a re-roll according to not me but the RAW.

PE= you do not get a re-roll until you roll a 1. = you have a re-roll if you roll a 1, according to not me but the RAW.

blaktoof wrote:
you were just quoted the RAW.

something that grants a re-roll on failed to hit rolls is the same as a re-roll to hit.

there is no requirement to miss to get the re-roll from prescience in regards to blast weapons.

Conditional re-rolls are also re-rolls to hit.



BS6+ is as much a conditional re-roll as PE is. Bs6+ is called out, specifically, as being a re-roll To Hit.

Before we go any further Blaktoof, where is this quote found?

If a model has a special rule that already confers it a re-roll To Hit (like a Master-crafted weapon, for example)

According to my iBook digital rulebook, re-roll apears 27 times in the whole thing. That quote isn't one of them.

From the BS6+ rules according to searching the eBook.

So if he read that rule, he already read the rule I quoted, meaning he knew he was presenting only part of the rule. Well done?

rigeld2 wrote:
From the BS6+ rules according to searching the eBook.

So if he read that rule, he already read the rule I quoted, meaning he knew he was presenting only part of the rule. Well done?

Thanks.

And yes, that is VERY selective quoting.

All it's highlighting, is that a re-roll with conditions (such as failing a To Hit roll) is still considered a re-roll by the rules. This is already known.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The fact that BS6 is called out as being a valid "ability to re-roll To Hit" should put this argument to bed.
It's far more conditional than PE, requiring a 1 To Hit, and then not even granting a true re-roll but a modied one.

No doubt it won't because of "reasons".

 grendel083 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
From the BS6+ rules according to searching the eBook.

So if he read that rule, he already read the rule I quoted, meaning he knew he was presenting only part of the rule. Well done?

Thanks.

And yes, that is VERY selective quoting.

All it's highlighting, is that a re-roll with conditions (such as failing a To Hit roll) is still considered a re-roll by the rules. This is already known.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The fact that BS6 is called out as being a valid "ability to re-roll To Hit" should put this argument to bed.
It's far more conditional than PE, requiring a 1 To Hit, and then not even granting a true re-roll but a modied one.

No doubt it won't because of "reasons".

Actually it is the opposite,

"it gains a reroll whenever it rolls a 1 to hit..."

The model does not have the ability to reroll for blast to interact with, because it did not roll a 1 to gain the reroll. Same with PE, no 1, no ability to reroll.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Actually it is the opposite,

"it gains a reroll whenever it rolls a 1 to hit..."

The model does not have the ability to reroll for blast to interact with, because it did not roll a 1 to gain the reroll. Same with PE, no 1, no ability to reroll.

From the Gets Hot rule.

Gets Hot wrote:If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6+ or the Twin-Linked special rule)

Same wording used as with Blasts and re-rolls. "Has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit".

It considers BS6+ valid, and that is just as conditional as Prefered Enemy, but grants a more altered, lesser, re-roll. Both require a To Hit roll of 1 to gain any form of re-roll. The rules simply don't care that a 1 needs to be rolled, just that there is some form of re-roll to be considered valid.

 grendel083 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Actually it is the opposite,

"it gains a reroll whenever it rolls a 1 to hit..."

The model does not have the ability to reroll for blast to interact with, because it did not roll a 1 to gain the reroll. Same with PE, no 1, no ability to reroll.

From the Gets Hot rule.

Gets Hot wrote:If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6+ or the Twin-Linked special rule)

Same wording used as with Blasts and re-rolls. "Has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit".

It considers BS6+ valid, and that is just as conditional as Prefered Enemy, but grants a more altered, lesser, re-roll. Both require a To Hit roll of 1 to gain any form of re-roll. The rules simply don't care that a 1 needs to be rolled, just that there is some form of re-roll to be considered valid.

you left out a lot of that rule.

like

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6 + or the Twin-linked special rule), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1; it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit.

showing that first part is separate and further invalidating your argument.

if you go back and see the rules section for gets hot and weapons that do not roll to hit, which you and others have chosen not to discuss you will see it references the weapons do not roll to hit, and have a special allowance to roll a die, which is not a hit roll, to see if the weapon gets hot.


it shows you need additional special permission to get the re-roll for gets hot past having the ability to re-roll to hit rolls from bs 6+, because blasts do not roll to hit and can never roll a 1, the reroll in this discussion has nothing to do with re-roll to hit.

Irrelevant. It equates BS6+ with a re-roll To Hit, which is what Blast asks for.

You used that in your argument for Prescience, and now are saying it can't be used for PE? Awesome debating skills there.

 grendel083 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Actually it is the opposite,

"it gains a reroll whenever it rolls a 1 to hit..."

The model does not have the ability to reroll for blast to interact with, because it did not roll a 1 to gain the reroll. Same with PE, no 1, no ability to reroll.

From the Gets Hot rule.

Gets Hot wrote:If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6+ or the Twin-Linked special rule)

Same wording used as with Blasts and re-rolls. "Has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit".

It considers BS6+ valid, and that is just as conditional as Prefered Enemy, but grants a more altered, lesser, re-roll. Both require a To Hit roll of 1 to gain any form of re-roll. The rules simply don't care that a 1 needs to be rolled, just that there is some form of re-roll to be considered valid.

Look at the rules for BS6, the model does not have a reroll, it gains a reroll if it rolls a one. Why does a model gain something you state it already has? the word gain shows the model does not have a reroll, but can only ever gain one if it rolls a 1.

If it can gain a reroll it can be used for get's hot. It can not gain the reroll by rolling a scatter dice and can't reroll the scatter dice.

 grendel083 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Actually it is the opposite,

"it gains a reroll whenever it rolls a 1 to hit..."

The model does not have the ability to reroll for blast to interact with, because it did not roll a 1 to gain the reroll. Same with PE, no 1, no ability to reroll.

From the Gets Hot rule.

Gets Hot wrote:If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6+ or the Twin-Linked special rule)

Same wording used as with Blasts and re-rolls. "Has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit".

It considers BS6+ valid, and that is just as conditional as Prefered Enemy, but grants a more altered, lesser, re-roll. Both require a To Hit roll of 1 to gain any form of re-roll. The rules simply don't care that a 1 needs to be rolled, just that there is some form of re-roll to be considered valid.

Before this goes any further, i did point it out last time and will try to make it clear here again:

BS6+ is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT to Preferred Enemy. Both may re-roll 1s but they mean very different things!


Regardless of the outcome of the debate, please do not make the mistake above. A model with a Plasma Canon, BS4 and PE (re-roll or not re-roll) will scatter very differently to a model with BS10. even if firing a bolt pistol works out the same with re-rolls...

rigeld2 wrote:
Irrelevant. It equates BS6+ with a re-roll To Hit, which is what Blast asks for.

You used that in your argument for Prescience, and now are saying it can't be used for PE? Awesome debating skills there.

my discussion on prescience was to point out that prescience grants the reroll before the model rolls to hit, regardless of it rolling to hit it has the re-roll option.

PE does not have a re-roll option unless the model rolls a 1 to hit.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Actually it is the opposite,

"it gains a reroll whenever it rolls a 1 to hit..."

The model does not have the ability to reroll for blast to interact with, because it did not roll a 1 to gain the reroll. Same with PE, no 1, no ability to reroll.

From the Gets Hot rule.

Gets Hot wrote:If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6+ or the Twin-Linked special rule)

Same wording used as with Blasts and re-rolls. "Has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit".

It considers BS6+ valid, and that is just as conditional as Prefered Enemy, but grants a more altered, lesser, re-roll. Both require a To Hit roll of 1 to gain any form of re-roll. The rules simply don't care that a 1 needs to be rolled, just that there is some form of re-roll to be considered valid.

Before this goes any further, i did point it out last time and will try to make it clear here again:

BS6+ is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT to Preferred Enemy. Both may re-roll 1s but they mean very different things!


Regardless of the outcome of the debate, please do not make the mistake above. A model with a Plasma Canon, BS4 and PE (re-roll or not re-roll) will scatter very differently to a model with BS10. even if firing a bolt pistol works out the same with re-rolls...

They both have literally the exact same trigger for a re-roll, so for this debate they're identical.
Which is what we were talking about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Irrelevant. It equates BS6+ with a re-roll To Hit, which is what Blast asks for.

You used that in your argument for Prescience, and now are saying it can't be used for PE? Awesome debating skills there.

my discussion on prescience was to point out that prescience grants the reroll before the model rolls to hit, regardless of it rolling to hit it has the re-roll option.

PE does not have a re-roll option unless the model rolls a 1 to hit.

And according to the quoted rules, your distinction is irrelevant.
BS6 gets a re-roll when it rolls a 1, and it is classified as an ability that gives you a re-roll To Hit.
Why do you refuse to apply that to PE?

rigeld2 wrote:
They both have literally the exact same trigger for a re-roll, so for this debate they're identical.
Which is what we were talking about.

They both work differently for Blasts, so for this debate they are different
Which is what we were talking about.

Quote rules if BS10 grants a re-roll for blasts, because by RAW, it only reduces your scatter by 10".

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
They both have literally the exact same trigger for a re-roll, so for this debate they're identical.
Which is what we were talking about.

They both work differently for Blasts, so for this debate they are different
Which is what we were talking about.

Quote rules if BS10 grants a re-roll for blasts, because by RAW, it only reduces your scatter by 10".

Perhaps you'd like to read the thread?

High BS is referred to as a re-roll. It has the same trigger as PE. Treating one as a re-roll and the other not is illogical and inconsistent, especially if you're doing so without a reason.
The relevant rules have been quoted - it's difficult for me to require them right now. Read all of my recent posts.

"it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks."
BS6 or better

"with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking(...)"
Preferred Enemy

One specifically calls out the need for a roll of a 1 (Impossible with blasts).

The other is an ability to re-roll with a restriction: rolls of 1.


I would really like to see you support RaW that a model with BS10 can re-roll his scatter! As much as PE and re-rolls can be discussed/analysed, BS6+ will NOT allow you to claim a Re-Roll of Scatter...

 BlackTalos wrote:
"it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks."
BS6 or better

"with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking(...)"
Preferred Enemy

One specifically calls out the need for a roll of a 1 (Impossible with blasts).

The other is an ability to re-roll with a restriction: rolls of 1.


I would really like to see you support RaW that a model with BS10 can re-roll his scatter! As much as PE and re-rolls can be discussed/analysed, BS6+ will NOT allow you to claim a Re-Roll of Scatter...

So you didn't read the thread? Sigh. Okay.

So BS6+ is specifically called out as being an ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit. Agreed?

you are correct that in the instance where a model makes a to hit roll BS6 can give the ability to re-roll.

Very rarely, a model may have a Ballistic Skill of 6 or even more. If a model has BS 6 or higher, it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks.

the model has to roll a 1 to hit to get the re-roll.

also you should quote the whole part of the gets hot roll you are quoting.

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6 + or the Twin-linked special rule), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1; it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit.

the two important parts being that the to hit re-roll for gets hot has to be not a 1 to avoid gets hot.

and more importantly.

the first part of the rule has nothing to do with blasts, shown by the semicolon seperating the text and the words "it may also re-roll gets hot results of weapons that do not roll to hit"

blaktoof wrote:
you are correct that in the instance where a model makes a to hit roll BS6 can give the ability to re-roll.

Very rarely, a model may have a Ballistic Skill of 6 or even more. If a model has BS 6 or higher, it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks.

the model has to roll a 1 to hit to get the re-roll.

also you should quote the whole part of the gets hot roll you are quoting.

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6 + or the Twin-linked special rule), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1; it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit.

the two important parts being that the to hit re-roll for gets hot has to be not a 1 to avoid gets hot.

and more importantly.

the first part of the rule has nothing to do with blasts, shown by the semicolon seperating the text and the words "it may also re-roll gets hot results of weapons that do not roll to hit"

So being called a re-roll To Hit doesn't mean it's a re-roll To Hit?
It's a direct reference to BS6+ whereas your argument requires a connection to be made (using the high BS rules) between Master Crafted and Prescience.

the reroll for bs6+ is a reroll, however its not one blasts can have because blasts never roll to hit, as per the rules for bs6+ you have to roll to hit to have the ability to get the re-roll.

there is a special allowance noted in the RAW for gets hot weapons to get the re-roll for gets hot and then further reminds you the weapons do not roll to hit, and the re-roll granted has nothing to do with rolling to hit.

do you see that specific special allowance under blast weapons and re-rolls to hit? i surely do not.

blaktoof wrote:
the reroll for bs6+ is a reroll, however its not one blasts can have because blasts never roll to hit, as per the rules for bs6+ you have to roll to hit to have the ability to get the re-roll.

Please restate your argument for Prescience with this statement in mind.
Either I'm confused or you're contradicting yourself. Clarity would be appreciated.

Rigeld, the main difference is that BS6+ does not provide the model with an ability to re-roll.

Blast rules: "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit"

 BlackTalos wrote:
"it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks."
BS6 or better

"with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking(...)"
Preferred Enemy

It is clear for the above that PE provide a model with an ability: the model can re-roll "failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1". This is conditional on: 1) Rolling a 1; 2) fail To Hit/To Wound

BS6+ is completely different. Does a model with BS6+ have the ability to Re-roll To Hit rolls?
No: The model gains a re-roll "whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit". Now i hope you can understand that although the "end result" is the same with a bolt pistol, the grammar is completely different. The model never has a re-roll until it quite clearly "gains" it.

A model with PE never "gains" a reroll. It has an ability (that it constantly has): to be able to re-roll "failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1".

Now the "Gets Hot and Re-rolls" Paragraph you have suddenly jumped on to prove your point is just that:
Gets Hot and Re-rolls. BS6+ allows you to gain a re-roll. Obviously it will be mentioned, because it is a re-roll.

When a model with BS6+ roll To Hit, does it have the ability to Re-Roll?

Yes

When a model with BS6+ rolls Scatter (Blasts), does it have the ability to Re-Roll?

No

Can you use Gets Hot to counter this?

No, Blacktoof got that covered:

blaktoof wrote:

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6 + or the Twin-linked special rule), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1; it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit.

if you go back and see the rules section for gets hot and weapons that do not roll to hit, which you and others have chosen not to discuss you will see it references the weapons do not roll to hit, and have a special allowance to roll a die, which is not a hit roll, to see if the weapon gets hot.

it shows you need additional special permission to get the re-roll for gets hot past having the ability to re-roll to hit rolls from bs 6+, because blasts do not roll to hit and can never roll a 1, the reroll in this discussion has nothing to do with re-roll to hit.

Except that paragrh doesn't say "if you get a re-roll from high BS". It explicitly calls it a re-roll.

And yes, since the weapon doesn't roll To Hit there's another mechanic to see if you explode - there'd have to be or you wouldn't explode.

And FYI, Prescience doesn't give you the ability to re-roll, it gives you the ability to re-roll failed To Hit rolls.

So you don't gain the ability to re-roll until you fail a To Hit roll. So per the rules for Prescience you have to fail the To Hit roll to have the ability to re-roll.

rigeld2 wrote:
Except that paragrh doesn't say "if you get a re-roll from high BS". It explicitly calls it a re-roll.

And yes, since the weapon doesn't roll To Hit there's another mechanic to see if you explode - there'd have to be or you wouldn't explode.

And FYI, Prescience doesn't give you the ability to re-roll, it gives you the ability to re-roll failed To Hit rolls.

So you don't gain the ability to re-roll until you fail a To Hit roll. So per the rules for Prescience you have to fail the To Hit roll to have the ability to re-roll.

because the first part of the answer deals with weapons that roll to hit, a weapon with BS 6+ that rolls to hit will have a re-roll when it fails to hit.

The second part of the paragraph deals with weapons that do not roll to hit, and is separate from the first part.

Blasts fall into one of the two above categories, and that is the one that does not roll to hit.

blaktoof wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Except that paragrh doesn't say "if you get a re-roll from high BS". It explicitly calls it a re-roll.

And yes, since the weapon doesn't roll To Hit there's another mechanic to see if you explode - there'd have to be or you wouldn't explode.

And FYI, Prescience doesn't give you the ability to re-roll, it gives you the ability to re-roll failed To Hit rolls.

So you don't gain the ability to re-roll until you fail a To Hit roll. So per the rules for Prescience you have to fail the To Hit roll to have the ability to re-roll.

because the first part of the answer deals with weapons that roll to hit, a weapon with BS 6+ that rolls to hit will have a re-roll when it fails to hit.

The second part of the paragraph deals with weapons that do not roll to hit, and is separate from the first part.

Blasts fall into one of the two above categories, and that is the one that does not roll to hit.

BS6+ is listed, RAW, as a re-roll to hit. Agreed? Not "if you get a re-roll to hit from rolling a 1..." Or anything like that.

Its listed as a re-roll to hit in regards to weapons that get to roll to hit for gets hot.

Because they will get the re-roll when they roll to hit.

it is not listed as a re-roll to hit for weapons that do not roll to hit.

because they have to roll to hit to get the re-roll, which they cannot do, just as they cannot roll a 1 to hit for Preferred enemy.

That's not what the rule says at all. Perhaps you should read it? Here, I'll quote it again.


This means that, by definition, BS6+ is as much a reroll as Twin Linked is. Agreed?

rigeld2 wrote:
That's not what the rule says at all. Perhaps you should read it? Here, I'll quote it again.

Spoiler:

“If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule)”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Warhammer 40,000.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

This means that, by definition, BS6+ is as much a reroll as Twin Linked is. Agreed?

Why do you keep quoting get's hot?

In the case of get's hot, the model obviously rolled a 1.

What does BS6 say happens when you roll a 1?
The answer clearly shows why your argument fails.

Why does BS6 say you gain a reroll when you roll a 1, yet you claim it always has a reroll? How do you gain something if you already have it?

but yes the reroll gained after rolling a 1 would be the same as the reroll you get from TL, and that is how it works for get's hot.

wow, that's a long thread. admittedly i didn't read every entry.

with blast, you do roll to hit. the rule book states the scatter dice has a "Hit!" symbol. therefore any other result would be "not a hit" symbol. I like to call these "misses". if you do not "Hit!" then you miss and apply the 2d6" in the direction arrow.

if you have a blanket re-roll to hit (which would include attacks made on a "hit or miss" basis) you can re-roll a "miss" result. it's impossible to roll a 1 on the scatter dice which only has "hit" and "miss" options. so if you can only re-roll 1s, tough titties.

it's a blanket rule only situation.

Evil Party Girl wrote:
with blast, you do roll to hit. the rule book states the scatter dice has a "Hit!" symbol. therefore any other result would be "not a hit" symbol. I like to call these "misses". if you do not "Hit!" then you miss and apply the 2d6" in the direction arrow.

That is HIWPY because Twin-Linked explains it that way too.

We are currently discussing RaW where this would not apply =)

rigeld2 wrote:
That's not what the rule says at all. Perhaps you should read it? Here, I'll quote it again.

Spoiler:

“If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule)”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Warhammer 40,000.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

This means that, by definition, BS6+ is as much a reroll as Twin Linked is. Agreed?

For a weapon that has rolled To Hit, Agreed.

For blasts, only the second line you forgot to quote applies. The above is false.

Why are you trying to discuss PE(Orks) when we are talking about rules for Eldar?

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
That's not what the rule says at all. Perhaps you should read it? Here, I'll quote it again.

Spoiler:

“If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule)”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Warhammer 40,000.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

This means that, by definition, BS6+ is as much a reroll as Twin Linked is. Agreed?

For a weapon that has rolled To Hit, Agreed.

Sorry, I don't see that caveat in the rule I quoted. Would you underline it for me?

For blasts, only the second line you forgot to quote applies. The above is false.

For Gets Hot, sure that's the only thing that applies.

Why are you trying to discuss PE(Orks) when we are talking about rules for Eldar?

I'm confused - where did anyone bring up Eldar?

Here's the RaW:

Gets Hot and Re-rolls
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1; it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit.

Which refers to this:

Gets Hot and Weapons that do not roll To Hit
Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot immediately before firing.

You cannot selectively quote a small part of a rule to suit your needs of an argument.

When you roll To Hit with BS10, and have rolled a 1, do you have "the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit"?
The answer is yes.
Why have i already rolled a 1? because we are in the Gets Hot Special rule, so things like "When firing a weapon that Gets Hot, roll To Hit as normal." are implied. As is the fact that you are rolling To Hit, and that you have rolled a 1.

When you are:
-rolling To Hit
-have rolled a 1
-have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit

Then: "a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1."

Can you select the 3rd point above and call it RaW for the rest of the book? If you believe so, feel free to re-roll your Scatters with BS6.
I'll go and find another Rule to suit my needs, in the same way:

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right.

Oh look, all of my reserves can roll a D6 and arrive in different places. Or do you think both cases need context? I definitely do!

 BlackTalos wrote:
Here's the RaW:

Gets Hot and Re-rolls
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1; it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit.

Which refers to this:

Gets Hot and Weapons that do not roll To Hit
Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot immediately before firing.

I quoted the relevant part of the rule - the one that calls Bs6+ a re-roll To Hit. Do you agree that the rule does that and doesn't include a caveat?

You cannot selectively quote a small part of a rule to suit your needs of an argument.

Good point. You should also direct that at blaktoof as he did something similar earlier.

When you roll To Hit with BS10, and have rolled a 1, do you have "the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit"?

The underlined is not part of the rule I've quoted. At all. You're inserting it. Unless you're proposing that Twin Linked also must roll To Hit before it has a re-roll?

Can you select the 3rd point above and call it RaW for the rest of the book? If you believe so, feel free to re-roll your Scatters with BS6.
I'll go and find another Rule to suit my needs, in the same way:

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right.

Oh look, all of my reserves can roll a D6 and arrive in different places. Or do you think both cases need context? I definitely do!

Do you agree that the rule presents Twin Linked and BS6+ as equal re-rolls?

Your example is poor because it says "this unit". What unit? I'm sure you could elaborate on that.

rigeld2 wrote:

You cannot selectively quote a small part of a rule to suit your needs of an argument.

Good point. You should also direct that at blaktoof as he did something similar earlier.

My current intent is only to make sure it is understood that BS6+ is not "an ability to reroll" like PE is, and that comparing the 2 is comparing Apples and Pears. Different things, even if they share colour (sometimes).

Quality of re-rolls and how "Blast & Re-Rolls" works is in the "unresolved" category for me, and not being discussed by me.
Maybe we can conclude the above and get back to that point?

rigeld2 wrote:

When you roll To Hit with BS10, and have rolled a 1, do you have "the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit"?

The underlined is not part of the rule I've quoted. At all. You're inserting it. Unless you're proposing that Twin Linked also must roll To Hit before it has a re-roll?

No, it's not, because you're selectively quoting Gets Hot.
If you want to discuss what Gets Hot can bring to this debate by RaW ("(including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule)"), then the whole rule is relevant:
"has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" compared to "(including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule)" is only during the Gets Hot "situation"

rigeld2 wrote:

Can you select the 3rd point above and call it RaW for the rest of the book? If you believe so, feel free to re-roll your Scatters with BS6.
I'll go and find another Rule to suit my needs, in the same way:

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right.

Oh look, all of my reserves can roll a D6 and arrive in different places. Or do you think both cases need context? I definitely do!

Do you agree that the rule presents Twin Linked and BS6+ as equal re-rolls?

Your example is poor because it says "this unit". What unit? I'm sure you could elaborate on that.

Just as i'm sure you could elaborate on the "if the To Hit re-roll is also" and what "Also" is referring to.

Because i hope you cannot deny that the phrase, Rule and RaW we are talking about is all of this:
"A Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1 If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (Details)" (Rephrased)
I'm sure this grammatical sense above is identical? It might help you see "the whole rule", and how you can't be selective. Even if "Details" are important.

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

You cannot selectively quote a small part of a rule to suit your needs of an argument.

Good point. You should also direct that at blaktoof as he did something similar earlier.

My current intent is only to make sure it is understood that BS6+ is not "an ability to reroll" like PE is, and that comparing the 2 is comparing Apples and Pears. Different things, even if they share colour (sometimes).

Quality of re-rolls and how "Blast & Re-Rolls" works is in the "unresolved" category for me, and not being discussed by me.
Maybe we can conclude the above and get back to that point?

No, because the Gets Hot rule equates BS6+ to an ability to re-roll. Unless you're saying Twin Linked isn't an ability to re-roll?

rigeld2 wrote:

When you roll To Hit with BS10, and have rolled a 1, do you have "the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit"?

The underlined is not part of the rule I've quoted. At all. You're inserting it. Unless you're proposing that Twin Linked also must roll To Hit before it has a re-roll?

No, it's not, because you're selectively quoting Gets Hot.
If you want to discuss what Gets Hot can bring to this debate by RaW ("(including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule)"), then the whole rule is relevant:
"has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" compared to "(including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule)" is only during the Gets Hot "situation"

Please elaborate. Does the rule say that BS6+ is an ability to re-roll, equivalent to Twin Linked? Or not?

Just as i'm sure you could elaborate on the "if the To Hit re-roll is also" and what "Also" is referring to.

Not relevant to the point I'm making. Whereas the "this unit" is absolutely relevant to the point you're trying to make.

Because i hope you cannot deny that the phrase, Rule and RaW we are talking about is all of this:
"A Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1 If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (Details)" (Rephrased)
I'm sure this grammatical sense above is identical? It might help you see "the whole rule", and how you can't be selective. Even if "Details" are important.

Since you left the important bit out (about what is considered an ability to re-roll To Hit) no, it's not identical.
Leaving it in, sure - it's identical. It's also not relevant. The rule specifically calls BS6+ a re-roll To Hit. Not "a re-roll To Hit because you already rolled a 1." or anything like that, which is what you're inserting into the rule.

rigeld2 wrote:
No, because the Gets Hot rule equates BS6+ to an ability to re-roll.

Please elaborate. Does the rule say that BS6+ is an ability to re-roll, equivalent to Twin Linked? Or not?

It does indeed! Within a very specific set of conditions given by Gets Hot.

rigeld2 wrote:

Just as i'm sure you could elaborate on the "if the To Hit re-roll is also" and what "Also" is referring to.

Not relevant to the point I'm making. Whereas the "this unit" is absolutely relevant to the point you're trying to make.

Since you left the important bit out (about what is considered an ability to re-roll To Hit) no, it's not identical.
Leaving it in, sure - it's identical. It's also not relevant. The rule specifically calls BS6+ a re-roll To Hit. Not "a re-roll To Hit because you already rolled a 1." or anything like that, which is what you're inserting into the rule.

They are both very relevant:
"(including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule)" is referring to a very specific thing:

"A Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1 if a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule)"

That's the whole RaW, which is still connected to something:
"When firing a weapon that Gets Hot, roll To Hit as normal. For each To Hit roll of 1, the firing model immediately suffers a Wound"
or
"Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot immediately before firing. For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single Wound"

Orange Highlight is a forced connection

It is very simple.

You are claiming "A" is pure RaW.

"A" is only a statement "including" when "B".
"B" is only a situation when "also" "C".

You can keep trying to use "A" to prove your point, but we can see that unless it refers to "B" and "C", it is not a valid argument.

In the very same way that "X" is only a situation when "Y":
"X":When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right.
"Y" is Outflank.

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No, because the Gets Hot rule equates BS6+ to an ability to re-roll.

Please elaborate. Does the rule say that BS6+ is an ability to re-roll, equivalent to Twin Linked? Or not?

It does indeed! Within a very specific set of conditions given by Gets Hot.

What conditions exist in the rule?

You are claiming "A" is pure RaW.

"A" is only a statement "including" when "B".
"B" is only a situation when "also" "C".

You can keep trying to use "A" to prove your point, but we can see that unless it refers to "B" and "C", it is not a valid argument.

Incorrect. A is a statement including when B, but not only when B. That's your assumption that isn't supported by actual rules aside from what you're inserting.

In the very same way that "X" is only a situation when "Y":
"X":When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right.
"Y" is Outflank.

Not the same situation at all, as I've explained and you (apparently) ignored.


edit: I can finally see your misunderstanding. Using the orange highlight (which is difficult for me to read) I can see that you've linked "including" to "is also a 1". That's grammatically incorrect - it's linked to "ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit ".

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
It does indeed! Within a very specific set of conditions given by Gets Hot.

What conditions exist in the rule?

Everything in Gets Hot is after you have rolled a 1. Any quote you may take from the rule has the underlying assumption that a 1 was rolled, including Blasts.
Condition: You have rolled a 1. Either To Hit, or "Weapons that do not roll To Hit".

rigeld2 wrote:
Incorrect. A is a statement including when B, but not only when B. That's your assumption that isn't supported by actual rules aside from what you're inserting.

But that is your mistake: "A" is a statement included in "B", it does not exists outside of "B" (or "C"), as you are trying to use it.

rigeld2 wrote:

In the very same way that "X" is only a situation when "Y":
"X":When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right.
"Y" is Outflank.

Not the same situation at all, as I've explained and you (apparently) ignored.

How is it not the same? Because it says "this unit"? What unit?

It is the same, because the rule you quoted says "is also a 1". What is "also a 1"?

rigeld2 wrote:
edit: I can finally see your misunderstanding. Using the orange highlight (which is difficult for me to read) I can see that you've linked "including" to "is also a 1". That's grammatically incorrect - it's linked to "ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit ".

No, i'm not directly linking "including" to "is also a 1".

I'm linking "ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" to "is also a 1".

It's not simply "ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit". It's part of the Gets Hot setting.
Condition: You have rolled a 1. Either To Hit, or "Weapons that do not roll To Hit".

I mean it's easy to see, other do:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Why do you keep quoting get's hot?

In the case of get's hot, the model obviously rolled a 1.

What does BS6 say happens when you roll a 1?
The answer clearly shows why your argument fails.

Why does BS6 say you gain a reroll when you roll a 1, yet you claim it always has a reroll? How do you gain something if you already have it?

but yes the reroll gained after rolling a 1 would be the same as the reroll you get from TL, and that is how it works for get's hot.

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
It does indeed! Within a very specific set of conditions given by Gets Hot.

What conditions exist in the rule?

Everything in Gets Hot is after you have rolled a 1. Any quote you may take from the rule has the underlying assumption that a 1 was rolled, including Blasts.
Condition: You have rolled a 1. Either To Hit, or "Weapons that do not roll To Hit".

rigeld2 wrote:
Incorrect. A is a statement including when B, but not only when B. That's your assumption that isn't supported by actual rules aside from what you're inserting.

But that is your mistake: "A" is a statement included in "B", it does not exists outside of "B" (or "C"), as you are trying to use it.

If that's the case, why did you not call out blaktoof?

blaktoof wrote:

If a model has a special rule that already confers it a re-roll To Hit (like a Master-crafted weapon, for example)

Which comes from the BS6+ section dealing with the re-roll. Meaning the shot has already missed.

I was in a discussion with blaktoof and you called me out, not him. If you're going to make assertions like this, at least be consistent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:
No, i'm not directly linking "including" to "is also a 1".

I'm linking "ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" to "is also a 1".

Your orange highlights say otherwise.

I mean it's easy to see, other do:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Why do you keep quoting get's hot?

In the case of get's hot, the model obviously rolled a 1.

What does BS6 say happens when you roll a 1?
The answer clearly shows why your argument fails.

Why does BS6 say you gain a reroll when you roll a 1, yet you claim it always has a reroll? How do you gain something if you already have it?

but yes the reroll gained after rolling a 1 would be the same as the reroll you get from TL, and that is how it works for get's hot.

rigeld2 wrote:
I was in a discussion with blaktoof and you called me out, not him. If you're going to make assertions like this, at least be consistent.

If you double check, you jumped onto a post where i called out Grendel:

 grendel083 wrote:
It considers BS6+ valid, and that is just as conditional as Prefered Enemy, but grants a more altered, lesser, re-roll. Both require a To Hit roll of 1 to gain any form of re-roll. The rules simply don't care that a 1 needs to be rolled, just that there is some form of re-roll to be considered valid.

I highlighted the part which, IMHO is completely wrong, unless you are referring to a specific model rolling for Gets Hot.
Which, in hindsight, was probably the case.

 BlackTalos wrote:
No, i'm not directly linking "including" to "is also a 1".

I'm linking "ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" to "is also a 1".

Your orange highlights say otherwise.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Orange Highlight is a forced connection

Thought it was clear. Again then, without colours:

Rule A: "(including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule)"
must refer to Rule B, because of "including". It is "included" withing Rule B.

Rule B:"A Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1 if a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit."
must refer to Rule C, because of "is also a 1". You can't have "Is Also" before a prior condition "C"

Rule C: "When firing a weapon that Gets Hot, roll To Hit as normal. For each To Hit roll of 1," (To Hit Weapons)
"Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot immediately before firing. For each roll of a 1," (Blast Weapons) <--- Current Thread subject.

rigeld2 wrote:

I mean it's easy to see, other do:

Quoting someone I have on ignore isn't helpful. Appealing to the masses isn't helpful. Coloring white isn't helpful.
It'd be helpful if you support your argument.

Sorry you hadn't seen the post, but the questions are relevant and pretty much the same as mine.
Apologies if colours don't help your understanding of things.
My argument is above.
Short version:
A) "(including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule)" is not a general RaW statement. It only applies in the Gets Hot situation. You cannot use it in the "PE and Blasts" argument.

B) Blacktoof used the rule:"If a model has a special rule that already confers it a re-roll To Hit (like a Master-crafted weapon, for example), then that re-roll takes precedence and the chart above is not used."
From "Ballistic Skill of 6 or Better" situation.
I don't know if you can use it in the "PE and Blasts" argument. I'd probably go with "yes", but i have bias towards that side of the argument and did not really want to keep debating it, as rules haven't changed.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Rule A: "(including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule)"
must refer to Rule B, because of "including". It is "included" withing Rule B.

Rule B:"A Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1 if a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit."
must refer to Rule C, because of "is also a 1". You can't have "Is Also" before a prior condition "C"

Rule C: "When firing a weapon that Gets Hot, roll To Hit as normal. For each To Hit roll of 1," (To Hit Weapons)
"Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot immediately before firing. For each roll of a 1," (Blast Weapons) <--- Current Thread subject.

Rule B only consists of the underlined, not the entirety of what you quoted. We know that because Twin Linked has nothing to do with suffering wounds.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Rule A: "(including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule)"
must refer to Rule B, because of "including". It is "included" withing Rule B.

Rule B:"A Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1 if a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit."
must refer to Rule C, because of "is also a 1". You can't have "Is Also" before a prior condition "C"

Rule C: "When firing a weapon that Gets Hot, roll To Hit as normal. For each To Hit roll of 1," (To Hit Weapons)
"Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot immediately before firing. For each roll of a 1," (Blast Weapons) <--- Current Thread subject.

Rule B only consists of the underlined, not the entirety of what you quoted. We know that because Twin Linked has nothing to do with suffering wounds.

But that is exactly the mistake i'm trying to point out. Rule B is the whole thing, you cannot selectively use a small section to suit your needs for an argument.

Rule B is about re-rolling a Gets Hot result of 1. It calls out things that do so (TL and BS6+). But it is only ever about that Gets Hot result of a 1, not a blanket statement about the ability to re-roll anything...

Answer this question:

What includes BS6+ and Twin Linked?

 BlackTalos wrote:
Rule B:"A Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1 if a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit."

The underlined above is what you have to use if you want to Quote this Rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
Answer this question:

What includes BS6+ and Twin Linked?

The ability to re-roll of a model that To Hit rolled a 1.
When rolling Gets Hot.

ok, to bring this back to its basics.

I would like a concise reasoning as to why the crowd that think that think PE doesn't allow the blast re-roll to state what the roll is.

as you are claiming that it is not a re-roll to hit.


from my understanding I do not see any reasoning to refute the following:

a re-roll is the act of re-rolling a dice.

preferred enemy allows the re-roll of 'to hit' and 'to wound' dice results of 1 (emphasise mine)

the blast, scatter-re-roll rule is looking for the ability to re-roll 'to hit' dice.

that is the only thing it cares about, can you re-roll to hit dice?

from what I can see, so long as the target unit is the enemy that you have PE for, you have the ability to re-roll your to hit dice which satisfies the critera for the effect.

the effect itself doesn't care that you would need a specific or to be more precise a more restrictive value in order to re-roll the dice, because the very function of any of the re-rolling effects are looking for a miss result regardless of the result on the dice, but they ALL share the common denominator of providing a re-roll of the 'TO HIT' dice.

I can't believe other threads have been locked for two pages of saying the same thing over and over, yet this one is still going.

None of you are ever changing anyone else's mind. Discuss w/opponent prior to game if you expect to have the reroll w/preferred enemy, or if going to a tournament, discuss with TO.

Well to break it down:

"Ability to re-roll its rolls to hit" is imho completely unconditional. Therefore every unit that has a certain ability which allows it to re-roll can make use of this rule.

That includes PE, TL, BS6+ and (imho) Hatred (which is also an ability to re-roll rolls to hit under certain circumstances that don't matter in this case).

With re-rolling scatter I believe it is more difficult because of the condition "and chooses to do so". This condition however is unfulfillable, because blast weapons never roll to hit in the first place...

Reading up on Pask,

RAW states, pg59 AM codex: When firing a battle cannon, vanquisher battle cannon,demolisher siege cannon, or eradicator nova cannon, Pask can re-roll To Hit rolls.

Pask's ability to re-roll scatter on these 4 Leman Russ variants, are not tied to his PE Warlord trait.

Just when this thread is finally dead a week, it gets dragged up from the grave

It was also concerning the Executioner, and Preffered Enemy in general.