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Indeed, but would you then deny the fact that Unit X, of single model Y has "the ability to re-roll To Hit" with a single shot weapons?

Model Y can re-roll To Hit (if you haven't used Kairos' ability), so he would have " the ability to re roll To Hit rolls" for his plasma Pistol.

If he swaps his plasma pistol for a Rocket launcher, does his "ability" suddenly change? and why?

rigeld2 wrote:
morgoth - does Prescience allow Blasts to re-roll scatter?

Yes or no.

Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

Does that mean it has the ability to re roll To Hit rolls ? no.

So RAW, it doesn't work either. And twin link wouldn't work if it weren't for the specific mention on twin linked blast weapons.


RAI, clearly prescience and twin link allow blast re rolls as in most cases re rolling failed to hit rolls equals to re rolling To Hit rolls.

Which is still very different than re rolling just ones against a specific enemy, which is why I believe that RAI Pask does not get the Re Roll Scatter.

I don't believe the re-rolls of preferred enemy would allow a blast weapon to scatter. Lets get the rules clear first:

Blast Weapons and Re-rolls: If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast
weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

To re-roll the scatter of a blast attack, you must have permission to re-roll your attacks. Simple and with no strings attached.

Preferred Enemy: A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To
Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy.

Preferred enemy does give the ability to re-roll hits, however it only effects die with the roll of a one. To clarify: You do not have permission to re-roll a die unless it is a 1.

How this relates to blast weapons: As blast weapons never roll to hit in the conventional manner, they can never get a 1. Because they can never get a 1, they do not benefit from preferred enemy, and therefore do not qualify to re-roll their hits. As such preferred enemy would never have an interaction with blast weapons.

That's how I interpret the RAW.

HIWPI: As a house rule, alongside the normal blast scatter, we roll a single die, like to check for "gets hot!", if it is a 1 then the player may re-roll the scatter roll if they wish.
This way, the blast weapons do not get to re-roll everything, which is more powerful than the preferred enemy ability they posses, but it is also not a useless rule, allowing them to re-roll 1/6 of their shots, the same way any other weapon would.

 BlackTalos wrote:
RaW: Blasts and rerolls only covers "pure re-rolls", such as Fateweaver's re-roll. Re-rolls granted by "Misses" or "1 To Hit" have a condition which blasts cannot abide by.
Only TL will allow Blasts to re-roll. (And Fateweaver).

HIWPI: A Miss for a blast can easily be interpreted from how Twin-Linked works. Re-rolls granted by "missed" To Hits will let you re-roll Blasts.
PE, Earth Caste Array, Pask and the rest do not let you re-roll Blasts.

I do understand the other position, but cannot agree that PE allows Blast re-rolls (per my interpretation of Intent)

I was going to post pretty much exactly this. So I quoted BlackTalos instead.

Arguing about whether or not PE and prescience et al. grant rerolls or only the latter category does is just a RAI/HIWPI argument.

Which is a fine discussion to have. I also throw my hat in with Talos on this one as far as HIWPI is concerned.

@Big Blind Bill

you do not have permission to re-roll any dice unless you miss (a few exceptions exist of course)

the roll of a 1 on a to hit == rolling a 2 with a BS of 3 as far as the blast re-roll rule is concerned.

if you have permission, at all, to re-roll a dice, the blast rule kicks in and allows the re-roll.

you guys are the one's stating that the quality of the re-roll (i.e. it must be a blanket re-roll) matters. I ask for proof within the rules that this is the case and have been waiting for it for the last 2 pages.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
@Big Blind Bill
if you have permission, at all, to re-roll a dice, the blast rule kicks in and allows the re-roll..

You do not have permission. You have not rolled a 1 to hit. This is a prerequisite to gaining the ability to re-roll.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
@Big Blind Bill
if you have permission, at all, to re-roll a dice, the blast rule kicks in and allows the re-roll..

You do not have permission. You have not rolled a 1 to hit. This is a prerequisite to gaining the ability to re-roll.

And Prescience requires a failed To Hit roll. Also a prerequisite of gaining the ability to re-roll. Also not possible with a blast.

Same with the vast majority of re-roll abilities (currency the only exception being ammo runts). Do you believe none of these grant re-rolls also?

 grendel083 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
@Big Blind Bill
if you have permission, at all, to re-roll a dice, the blast rule kicks in and allows the re-roll..

You do not have permission. You have not rolled a 1 to hit. This is a prerequisite to gaining the ability to re-roll.

And Prescience requires a failed To Hit roll. Also a prerequisite of gaining the ability to re-roll. Also not possible with a blast.

Same with the vast majority of re-roll abilities (currency the only exception being ammo runts). Do you believe none of these grant re-rolls also?

These examples are not relevant to the topic. They are similar in nature, but not caused by the same rule discrepancy.

The simple fact is, PE lets you re-roll to hit rolls of 1.

Blast weapons do not roll a to hit roll at all.

How are you making the jump that you are entitled to a re-roll, when you have not fulfilled the prerequisites?

PE lets normal weapons re-roll 16% of all shots. You are arguing that it should let blast weapons re-roll 100% of them.

It is relevent.

You're reading "has the ability to re-roll To Hit" as "qualifies to re-roll To Hit rolls" - something not actually possible ever.

You're applying half the blast rule, but not the rest.

Half being "can't roll a 1 To Hit"
But missing out the part of "doesn't roll To Hit" at all.

By applying this logic, nothing can re-roll blasts.
Anything that re-rolls to hit (failed or otherwise) cannot apply, as a blast never rolls To Hit.

If you want to apply "can't roll a 1" as an argument, you have to apply "doesn't roll To Hit at all". Using half a rule doesn't cut it.
You're taking a rule allowing re-rolls, and using this logic to render it useless in all cases.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
@Big Blind Bill
if you have permission, at all, to re-roll a dice, the blast rule kicks in and allows the re-roll..

You do not have permission. You have not rolled a 1 to hit. This is a prerequisite to gaining the ability to re-roll.

And Prescience requires a failed To Hit roll. Also a prerequisite of gaining the ability to re-roll. Also not possible with a blast.

Same with the vast majority of re-roll abilities (currency the only exception being ammo runts). Do you believe none of these grant re-rolls also?

Continued arguing for prescience when it has nothing to do with the topic is odd.

even if prescience was worded "may reroll all to hit rolls"

it has no bearing on PE, because PE only gives the reroll on rolls of 1 to hit, which a blast weapon RAW can never roll, so it will never benefit from that part of PE (it would still benefit from the reroll to wound..)

the idea that "because there is a chance it could have a reroll under some circumstance that is not actually happening means it gets a reroll" is completely ludicrous.

it is the same as saying, my model has the option to buy twin linked or master crafted, therefore it rerolls scatter because its a possiblity even though it currently does not actually have a reroll. Which is utterly illogical, and has no support in the rules. many posters have demonstrated this by failing to produce any rules quote or discussion that states the model could have a reroll, instead of "blasts that have the ability to reroll"

does an attack with PE have the ability to reroll if it does not roll a 1 to hit, 100% RAW no.

therefore the blast never has the ability to reroll as it never met the requirements to get the reroll.

if a weapon was str 7 ap 2 assault 2 blast mastercrafted, would you get to reroll both shots or just one of the shots?

the obvious answer is one, because mastercrafting gives the ability to reroll 1 shot, stating that "the model could make a reroll maybe if this and this happened even though its not possible to roll that" does not mean the model gains the reroll, it does not actually have the ability to reroll the attack simply by virtue of having a special rule that under certain circumstances grants the ability to reroll, it gets the ability to reroll the attack when it meets the circumstances outlined by the special rule to get the ability to reroll, which in the case of PE is rolling a 1.


as for blasts and rerolls it states..

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

prescience

Prescience is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 12". Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

a failed to hit roll is a to hit roll, but it is a specific type of to hit roll, It is a to hit roll that did not hit something, it failed to hit. RAW we are told blasts that scatter off the table are complete misses, a miss is the result of failing a to hit roll.

One could easily argue that scoring 0 hits is the same as not hitting, which is failing to hit and could get then state that prescience grants rerolls on failed to hits. The attack is now granted a reroll.

One could not argue that scoring a hit on a unit, but only 1 hit and then asking for a reroll as there is a hit, so its not a failed to hit roll and no reroll would be granted for prescience.

prescience specifies the reroll is granted on "failed to hit rolls" so you do not get it on to hit rolls that do hit.

regardless it is a different issue than PE as one grants the ability on a to hit roll of a 1, which blasts can never get.
the other grants a reroll if the attack fails to score a hit. Which blasts can fail to do.

Prescience States "re-rolled failed To Hit rolls".

By insisting that it must qualify by rolling a 1 To Hit, you remove the ability of anything to gain a Re-Roll. If you're going to apply a rule, be consistent.

as for blasts and rerolls it states..

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

prescience

Prescience is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 12". Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

a failed to hit roll is a to hit roll, but it is a specific type of to hit roll, It is a to hit roll that did not hit something, it failed to hit. RAW we are told blasts that scatter off the table are complete misses, a miss is the result of failing a to hit roll.

One could easily argue that scoring 0 hits is the same as not hitting, which is failing to hit and could get then state that prescience grants rerolls on failed to hits. The attack is now granted a reroll.

One could not argue that scoring a hit on a unit, but only 1 hit and then asking for a reroll as there is a hit, so its not a failed to hit roll and no reroll would be granted for prescience.

prescience specifies the reroll is granted on "failed to hit rolls" so you do not get it on to hit rolls that do hit.

regardless it is a different issue than PE as one grants the ability on a to hit roll of a 1, which blasts can never get.
the other grants a reroll if the attack fails to score a hit. Which blasts can fail to do.

the above is consistent, and discusses the RAW. If you have any counter points please provide relevant rules quotes to support them.

Failing to score a hit with a blast, is completely different to a failed To Hit roll. You can't seriously claim they're the same.



A BS5 model with Prescience: what does it need to roll to qualify for a re-roll? Can it be done with a Blast?

A BS5 model with Prefered Enemy: what does it need to roll to qualify for a re-roll? Can it be done with a Blast?

Also, if you have two interpretations of a rule, and one renders all re-roll abilities useless, is there a chance it's the incorrect interpretation?

 grendel083 wrote:
If you want to apply "can't roll a 1" as an argument, you have to apply "doesn't roll To Hit at all". Using half a rule doesn't cut it.
You're taking a rule allowing re-rolls, and using this logic to render it useless in all cases.

You need to roll a 1 to be able to re-roll.

You do not even roll a die at all, so have 0% chance of rolling a 1.

Please note this quote from the Blast rule:

When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit

And then the preferred enemy rule:

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To
Hit and To Wound rolls of 1

As you never roll to hit, you can't get a 1, and are therefore unable to re-roll it.

I don't want to hear about prescience. Or other re-roll issues that will attempt to derail this. I want to know where the '1' result is, when you roll a scatter die and 2d6. If you can somehow find this, then it will give you the permission you need to re-roll blast weapons.

I see you failed to read anything I posted.

A BS5 model with prescience has to fail to hit, to get a reroll.

a BS5 Model with PE has to roll a 1 to get a reroll.

There are circumstances where a BS 5 model can fail to hit without rolling a 1.

a BS 5 Model with presceience can reroll a blast that scatters off table, or fails to hit any models as it is granted a reroll by failing to hit, and as per blasts and rerolls things that get a reroll to hit can reroll scatter+distance.

a BS 5 model with PE can never reroll the result of scatter for a blast because RAW it can never roll a 1 to hit to get the reroll to hit.

its not two interpretations of a rule, its that the qualifier for getting a reroll from each is different. I am not sure we can continue discussing this if you cannot see that.

Re-roll In some situations, the rules allow you to re-roll a dice. This is exactly what it sounds like – pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again.

Prescience- the situation that grants a re-roll from this rule is failing to hit.
Preferred enemy- the situation that grants a re-roll from this rule is rolling a 1 to hit.

two different qualifers to get the ability to reroll to hit rolls.

one of the above when you Follow the RAW is able to give a re-roll for blasts under certain situations that can actually happen, the other does not.

again regardless of prescience how do you roll a 1 to hit for a blast weapon? and if you can find something that references blasts or PE in prescience then its relavent to the topic, otherwise its pretty extreme rules lawyering.

"Fails to hit any model" is not something supported by the rules. Please don't invent rules to support an interpretation.

Failing to generate any hits with a blast is NOT the same as a Failed To Hit roll. Shortening the rule to Failed Hit is not what the rules say.

blaktoof wrote:
again regardless of prescience how do you roll a 1 to hit for a blast weapon?

The same way you roll a failed To Hit with a blast.

Not possible, you're interpretation has rendered every re-roll ability (aside from ammo runts) unusable.
Normally a good indication that it's the incorrect interpretation.

your continued inability to discuss that PE requires you to roll a 1 to hit to get the reroll in question, and a blast weapon can never do that shows that you are incorrect and utterly have no actual rules argument to support your point.

I implore you if you want to discuss prescience and if failing to hit a model due to the result of rolling dice when determining if anything is hit by a blast is the same as rolling to hit to actually start a separate topic as it is truely and unquestionably a separate topic.

regarding PE, it is unarguable that you are required to roll a 1 to hit, and blasts do not roll a 1 to hit, ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
as for failed to hit rolls = reroll to hit...

further support from RAW quotes.

If a model has a special rule that already confers it a re-roll To Hit (like a Master-crafted weapon, for example)

Weapons with the Master-crafted special rule allow the bearer to re-roll one failed roll To Hit per turn with that weapon.

master crafted is called out as confering a reroll to hit.

master crated rule states it rerolls failed to hit rolls.

rerolling a failed to hit roll, is a reroll to hit.

Two interpretations, I'm looking at a wider view for justification rather than a very narrow view.

Do you have the ability to re-roll
1). Yes, To Hit rolls of 1. It's conditional, but still a yes.
2). No, only if you roll a 1 do you gain the ability. The condition must be met first.

Two interpretations. I can see the merit in both, so I look into both. I'm looking at the wider picture of how this rule interacts with other abilities.

Doing so I note that 2. renders almost all re-roll abilities void. This leads me to believe it is the incorrect interpretation.

I won't look at a rule narrowly in a vacuum. That's no way to get the truth of the matter.

Edit: So Master-Crafted allows for a re-roll despite not meeting the conditions to grant the ability? (Ie: a failed To Hit roll which isn't possible)
Yet the condition of Prefered Enemy must be met? (Ie: rolling a 1 To Hit which isn't posdible)
Sounds like a double standard.

 grendel083 wrote:
"Fails to hit any model" is not something supported by the rules. Please don't invent rules to support an interpretation.

Failing to generate any hits with a blast is NOT the same as a Failed To Hit roll. Shortening the rule to Failed Hit is not what the rules say.

blaktoof wrote:
again regardless of prescience how do you roll a 1 to hit for a blast weapon?

The same way you roll a failed To Hit with a blast.

Not possible, you're interpretation has rendered every re-roll ability (aside from ammo runts) unusable.
Normally a good indication that it's the incorrect interpretation.

Or is that the intent?

maybe the intent is only to allow twin link and runts to reroll blasts.

Because if we ignore all the qualifiers, "a missed roll" "a roll of one" etc, we are also allowing runts to reroll blasts all game long as we can easily also ignore "one use only" Runts can reroll a to hit roll, which blasts never roll, so as blasts allow the rerolling based on having an ability, the runt never actually rerolls "a roll to hit" so it can still be used all game long.

so if your interpretation leads to crazy results, it's also a good indication that it's not the correct one.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Or is that the intent?

maybe the intent is only to allow twin link and runts to reroll blasts.

Who knows?

Let's be honest, it's two interpretations people won't ever agree on barring an FAQ.
This topic is once again going in circles.

 grendel083 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Or is that the intent?

maybe the intent is only to allow twin link and runts to reroll blasts.

Who knows?

Let's be honest, it's two interpretations people won't ever agree on barring an FAQ.
This topic is once again going in circles.

True that.

I find the lack of FAQ's in this edition, disturbing.

 grendel083 wrote:
Two interpretations, I'm looking at a wider view for justification rather than a very narrow view.

Do you have the ability to re-roll
1). Yes, To Hit rolls of 1. It's conditional, but still a yes.
2). No, only if you roll a 1 do you gain the ability. The condition must be met first.

Two interpretations. I can see the merit in both, so I look into both. I'm looking at the wider picture of how this rule interacts with other abilities.

Doing so I note that 2. renders almost all re-roll abilities void. This leads me to believe it is the incorrect interpretation.

I won't look at a rule narrowly in a vacuum. That's no way to get the truth of the matter.

However, you need to accept that there are other rule discrepancies.

You have fallen back on prescience as an example many times, but that rule itself often has people arguing over its interaction with blast weapons. Using a rule which itself is in contestation does not make for a good point of reference.

PE not working with blast weapons means exactly that. Nothing more. And nothing less.

Other rules have no bearing on this, for they have their own requirements and conditions.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I don't want to hear about prescience. Or other re-roll issues that will attempt to derail this.

It's not an attempt to derail.
It's an attempt to see if you are consistent in applying your argument.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I don't want to hear about prescience. Or other re-roll issues that will attempt to derail this.

It's not an attempt to derail.
It's an attempt to see if you are consistent in applying your argument.

Applying the exact same rule to two different problems, no matter how similar, is not logical nor does it require consistency. Each requires a different answer.

Despite both involving re-rolling dice, prescience has nothing to do with preferred enemy. Hence, it is derailing.

Still no reasoning why you should get a re-roll when you haven't rolled a 1.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I don't want to hear about prescience. Or other re-roll issues that will attempt to derail this.

It's not an attempt to derail.
It's an attempt to see if you are consistent in applying your argument.

Applying the exact same rule to two different problems, no matter how similar, is not logical nor does it require consistency. Each requires a different answer.

Um. Are you serious?

You're focusing on a requirement to happen for the re-roll to happen. I'm asking if you're going to apply that logic to every potential "re-roll" rule.
Essentially, if it's conditional (based on the To Hit roll) can it re-roll? Applying the answer to that consistently is absolutely logical, despite your insistence otherwise.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I don't want to hear about prescience. Or other re-roll issues that will attempt to derail this.

It's not an attempt to derail.
It's an attempt to see if you are consistent in applying your argument.

Applying the exact same rule to two different problems, no matter how similar, is not logical nor does it require consistency. Each requires a different answer.

Um. Are you serious?

You're focusing on a requirement to happen for the re-roll to happen. I'm asking if you're going to apply that logic to every potential "re-roll" rule.
Essentially, if it's conditional (based on the To Hit roll) can it re-roll? Applying the answer to that consistently is absolutely logical, despite your insistence otherwise.

Prescience allows all of a squads shooting to be re-rolled (100%). PE allows 1/6 (16%) of a squad's shooting to be re-rolled.

You are stating that blast weapons in both cases should be able to be re-rolled 100% of the time.

This is not the same problem as there are different factors.

With regards to their relation to blast weapons, the two rules have differing factors.

Do you now see the fallacy of your argument now? I hope so.

These two rules are different, you should not try and find one rule to fix them both, especially as both rules have separate issues.

Now, stop derailing, and answer the question. Are you rolling a 1 to hit every time you fire a blast weapon when effected by preferred enemy?

If you cannot answer this, then you really don't have an argument.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I don't want to hear about prescience. Or other re-roll issues that will attempt to derail this.

It's not an attempt to derail.
It's an attempt to see if you are consistent in applying your argument.

Applying the exact same rule to two different problems, no matter how similar, is not logical nor does it require consistency. Each requires a different answer.

Um. Are you serious?

You're focusing on a requirement to happen for the re-roll to happen. I'm asking if you're going to apply that logic to every potential "re-roll" rule.
Essentially, if it's conditional (based on the To Hit roll) can it re-roll? Applying the answer to that consistently is absolutely logical, despite your insistence otherwise.

Prescience allows all of a squads shooting to be re-rolled (100%). PE allows 1/6 (16%) of a squad's shooting to be re-rolled.

This is incorrect.
Prescience allows all of a squads failed To Hit rolls to be re-rolled.
PE also allows all of a squads failed To Hit rolls to be re-rolled if the squad is BS5.

Please word your argument correctly.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Prescience allows all of a squads shooting to be re-rolled (100%). PE allows 1/6 (16%) of a squad's shooting to be re-rolled.

False.

Prescience only gives a re-roll on a failed To Hit roll, which in all cases is less than 100%

In the case of a Bs5 model, Prescience gives a re-roll 16% of the time (1 in 6). Sound familiar?

*Clap* You are good at derailing rigeld! I will give you that.

Let's take this back to basics:

For PE you must roll a 1 to be able to re-roll it. You can not roll a 1 on a scatter die +2d6. Without a 1 you have no re-roll which would enable you to follow the blast weapon rules.

Can you explain why you feel you are entitled to a re-roll a blast, and 100% of the time at that, when you have in no way satisfied the requirement of PE.

A direct answer please.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
*Clap* You are good at derailing rigeld! I will give you that.

I wasn't aware getting someone to explain their argument was derailing.

Let's take this back to basics:

For PE you must roll a 1 to be able to re-roll it.

Incorrect. Since you've repeatedly not quoted rules correctly I'll wait for you to do so.