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Greetings all, A fellow gamer and I are having a disagreement over Commanders Pask's and his units ability to re-roll gets hot and also scatter dice and distance on blast templates. I would greatly appreciate some rule citing and how people have dealt with this situation in there local group. Thank you for your time.

Does he have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls? If so he can re-roll the scatter with Blasts.

Not sure on the wording for Gets Hot (Eldar and Nids never Get Hot), but I assume it is similar to Blasts and re-rolls.

It depends on your interpretation of the RAW.
The Preferred Enemy rule lets you re-roll failed To Hit and To Wound on rolls of 1. Its not a carte blanche re-roll to hit.

There is ambiguity in the wording of the Gets Hot and Re-Rolls, and Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls rules, as to if Preferred Enemy qualifies.

GW needs to clarify this one.

Gets Hot and Re-rolls

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1; it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit.

How is this not clear ?

Preferred Enemy

Many of the galaxy’s warriors train hard to overcome a particular foe, allowing them to predict the enemy’s battle-stances and thus land a blow or shot with greater ease.

This rule is often presented as Preferred Enemy (X) where X identifies a specific type of foe. If the special rule does not specify a type of foe, then everyone is a Preferred Enemy of the unit. A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy. This applies both to shooting and close combat attacks.

Very clearly it does not affect blasts whatsoever. Again, perfectly clear.

Blasts and rerolls states otherwise Morgoth.

if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter. This is absolutely irrefutable.

Buddha - there is no ambiguity. There is no requirement to have any specific level of reroll, just an ability to reroll, therefore PE applies.

You also reroll Gets Hot!

nosferatu1001 wrote:
if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter.

This is not the same as being able to re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1.

morgoth wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter.

This is not the same as being able to re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1.

Blast and Re-Rolls doesn't care how well you can reroll, just that you can

Blast Weapons and Re-rolls

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

Does the model have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit ?
Does it choose to do so ?

In my opinion, the model doesn't have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit, it only has the ability to re-roll its failed To Hit rolls of 1.

It's a lot more specific and also quite different in both meaning and effect.

I conclude that it does not have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit but a minor similar ability, and therefore cannot use it for blasts.

morgoth wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter.

This is not the same as being able to re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1.

So you're of the opinion that only Twin-Linked allows you to re-roll scatter?

A normal re-roll (Prescience for example) requires a miss before it can be re-rolled. Something not possible with a Blast.

So if you claim it can't re-roll because a 1 wasn't rolled, then no re-rolls can be used to gain a re-roll from a Blast, from any ability.

rigeld2 wrote:

morgoth wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter.

This is not the same as being able to re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1.

So you're of the opinion that only Twin-Linked allows you to re-roll scatter?

I'm of the opinion that being able to re-roll a failed To Hit roll of 1 is not the same as being able to re-roll To Hit rolls.

Arguably, the intent in the case of any ability allowing to re-roll failed To Hit rolls would be the same as Twin-Linked, but the wording may not make those two equal.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blasts and rerolls states otherwise Morgoth.

if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter. This is absolutely irrefutable.

Buddha - there is no ambiguity. There is no requirement to have any specific level of reroll, just an ability to reroll, therefore PE applies.

You also reroll Gets Hot!

Nosferatu - As you can see by the dissenting replies, its not irrefutable. Thats just your interpretation of the RAW.

I agree with Morgoth; re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1, and re-roll To Hit, are arguably not the same thing, and therefore the ambiguity, when applied to Gets Hot and Scatter.

BuddhaTattoo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blasts and rerolls states otherwise Morgoth.

if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter. This is absolutely irrefutable.

Buddha - there is no ambiguity. There is no requirement to have any specific level of reroll, just an ability to reroll, therefore PE applies.

You also reroll Gets Hot!

Nosferatu - As you can see by the dissenting replies, its not irrefutable. Thats just your interpretation of the RAW.

I agree with Morgoth; re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1, and re-roll To Hit, are arguably not the same thing, and therefore the ambiguity, when applied to Gets Hot and Scatter.

If you have the ability to re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1, do you have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls?

It's a Yes or No question, as posed by the Blast rules. Please answer it.

rigeld2 wrote:

BuddhaTattoo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blasts and rerolls states otherwise Morgoth.

if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter. This is absolutely irrefutable.

Buddha - there is no ambiguity. There is no requirement to have any specific level of reroll, just an ability to reroll, therefore PE applies.

You also reroll Gets Hot!

Nosferatu - As you can see by the dissenting replies, its not irrefutable. Thats just your interpretation of the RAW.

I agree with Morgoth; re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1, and re-roll To Hit, are arguably not the same thing, and therefore the ambiguity, when applied to Gets Hot and Scatter.

If you have the ability to re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1, do you have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls?

It's a Yes or No question, as posed by the Blast rules. Please answer it.

I roll a 2. Do I have the ability to reroll To Hits?

It comes down to how you interpret that statement. Neither side will budge on it. Discuss it with your gaming group and come up with your own rule until a FAQ hits

Fragile wrote:
I roll a 2. Do I have the ability to reroll To Hits?

Since that's literally impossible in the given scenario it's offtopic at best. Please stay on topic.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
I roll a 2. Do I have the ability to reroll To Hits?

Since that's literally impossible in the given scenario it's offtopic at best. Please stay on topic.

Since it disproves the entire point it is relevant.

the model with PE has the ability to reroll its failed to hit rolls of 1.

not its failed to hit rolls.

if a blast cannot roll a 1 to fail, then it cannot invoke the rule of preferred enemy to reroll a result it never had.

if the blast failed its to hit roll of 1 it could then reroll scatter, as it would get the reroll to hit from the failed to hit roll of 1.

however blast weapons do not roll to hit, therefore it can never roll a 1 to hit.

When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit.

from preferred enemy..

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy.

as blasts cannot roll a 1 to hit, they cannot get a reroll to hit, models that fail to hit rolls without rolling a 1 do not get a reroll, therefore the reroll is contingent upon rolling a 1 to hit, which blasts cannot ever do.

blasts of course benefit from the reroll of the wound roll portion of PE.

theres many non blast shooting attacks that fail to hit on rolls other than 1. that they are not given rerolls shows that its intended you have to roll a 1 to fail to get the reroll of that attack.

blaktoof wrote:
if a blast cannot roll a 1 to fail, then it cannot invoke the rule of preferred enemy to reroll a result it never had.

A blast does not fail To Hit rolls either.

If you follow this logic, then you must also accept that other abilities that grant re-rolls cannot be used to re-roll scatter either (prescience for example), as they require failed To Hit rolls in order to grant a re-roll.

rigeld2 wrote:

BuddhaTattoo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blasts and rerolls states otherwise Morgoth.

if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter. This is absolutely irrefutable.

Buddha - there is no ambiguity. There is no requirement to have any specific level of reroll, just an ability to reroll, therefore PE applies.

You also reroll Gets Hot!

Nosferatu - As you can see by the dissenting replies, its not irrefutable. Thats just your interpretation of the RAW.

I agree with Morgoth; re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1, and re-roll To Hit, are arguably not the same thing, and therefore the ambiguity, when applied to Gets Hot and Scatter.

If you have the ability to re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1, do you have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls?

It's a Yes or No question, as posed by the Blast rules. Please answer it.

No you don't.

morgoth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

BuddhaTattoo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blasts and rerolls states otherwise Morgoth.

if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter. This is absolutely irrefutable.

Buddha - there is no ambiguity. There is no requirement to have any specific level of reroll, just an ability to reroll, therefore PE applies.

You also reroll Gets Hot!

Nosferatu - As you can see by the dissenting replies, its not irrefutable. Thats just your interpretation of the RAW.

I agree with Morgoth; re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1, and re-roll To Hit, are arguably not the same thing, and therefore the ambiguity, when applied to Gets Hot and Scatter.

If you have the ability to re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1, do you have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls?

It's a Yes or No question, as posed by the Blast rules. Please answer it.

No you don't.

THen you have just made an incorrect statement. You DO have the abilty to reroll your tohits, just not all of them.

Yes, to hit and to hit of 1 are not the same. However, that isnt important in the slightest. What IS important is that the rule granting the reroll only states you have the ABILITY to reroll to hit, and places no limits on how much of your to hit you need to reroll to qualify- which you demonstrably do.

It is an unqualified statement that you are treating as qualifed. Prove it is qualified. Page and graph.

Buddha - there is dissent, but plain RULES that dissent is wrong. The actual rules are indisputable, but some refuse to read the written rule as is, and inject other meaning that isnt prsent - like morgoth, when they claim (by assertion of their argument) that the requirement has a qualifier when none is present.

This topic is over.


Either you believe that "the ability to re roll your To Hit rolls" and "the ability to re roll some To Hit rolls under specific conditions" is the same thing (which by RAW never happens), or you don't.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
I roll a 2. Do I have the ability to reroll To Hits?

Since that's literally impossible in the given scenario it's offtopic at best. Please stay on topic.

Since it disproves the entire point it is relevant.

Since you can't roll a 2 To Hit with a Blast weapon, it's not relevant. I'm sure you've read the Blast rule that says they don't roll To Hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
the model with PE has the ability to reroll its failed to hit rolls of 1.

not its failed to hit rolls.

The latter is not what the Blast rule asks for. Please use actual rules in your argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

BuddhaTattoo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blasts and rerolls states otherwise Morgoth.

if you have the ability to reroll your to-hit, you may reroll your scatter. This is absolutely irrefutable.

Buddha - there is no ambiguity. There is no requirement to have any specific level of reroll, just an ability to reroll, therefore PE applies.

You also reroll Gets Hot!

Nosferatu - As you can see by the dissenting replies, its not irrefutable. Thats just your interpretation of the RAW.

I agree with Morgoth; re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1, and re-roll To Hit, are arguably not the same thing, and therefore the ambiguity, when applied to Gets Hot and Scatter.

If you have the ability to re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1, do you have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls?

It's a Yes or No question, as posed by the Blast rules. Please answer it.

No you don't.

So if I'm firing a non-Blast weapon and roll a 1, I'm not allowed to re-roll my To Hit?
Funny, the rule says I am.

morgoth wrote:
This topic is over.


Either you believe that "the ability to re roll your To Hit rolls" and "the ability to re roll some To Hit rolls under specific conditions" is the same thing (which by RAW never happens), or you don't.

No, thats just your failure to understand when a difference is relevant, and when one isnt. ANd where an unconditional requirement can be met by something that is conditional.

If I say you can do X as long as Y is true, even if you only do a subset of Y then as I made an unqualified statement you have still fulfilled Y, and can do X. Your claim is that they didnt make an unqualified statement (strictly a lie; the statement is unconditional) but one that is conditional. Which is false. You cannot rebut this - indeed, you havent actually made any attempt to, jut a bunch of assertions leading nowhere.

Youre saying that despite Y being unconditional, youre going to ,make up conditions to point to, while being conveniently unable to cite where these conditions come from as per the forum tenets.

rigeld2 wrote:

So if I'm firing a non-Blast weapon and roll a 1, I'm not allowed to re-roll my To Hit?
Funny, the rule says I am.

If you need to reword a rule to have it agree with you, that means you're wrong.

Here's a yes/no question for you:

Blast Weapons and Re-rolls

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

Does the model have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit ?

morgoth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

So if I'm firing a non-Blast weapon and roll a 1, I'm not allowed to re-roll my To Hit?
Funny, the rule says I am.

If you need to reword a rule to have it agree with you, that means you're wrong.

Here's a yes/no question for you:

Blast Weapons and Re-rolls

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

Does the model have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit ?

Yes.

in the case of preferred enemy you need to roll a 1 to get a reroll, if you did not roll a 1 to hit do you get a reroll? nope.

so no reroll for blasts.

things that give a blanket "reroll to hit" require nothing to be rolled, and have no condition that needs to be met before the attack has a reroll available to use.

therefore they work as per "blasts and reroll to hits" as the blast attack actually has a reroll at that point unlike the preferred enemy example.

blaktoof wrote:
things that give a blanket "reroll to hit" require nothing to be rolled, and have no condition that needs to be met before the attack has a reroll available to use.

No such thing. Other than Twin-Linked (which has a special exception) everything requires a failed To Hit roll.
Double Standard much? You're ignoring one qualifier and insisting another is relevant.

RaW: Blasts and rerolls only covers "pure re-rolls", such as Fateweaver's re-roll. Re-rolls granted by "Misses" or "1 To Hit" have a condition which blasts cannot abide by.
Only TL will allow Blasts to re-roll. (And Fateweaver).

HIWPI: A Miss for a blast can easily be interpreted from how Twin-Linked works. Re-rolls granted by "missed" To Hits will let you re-roll Blasts.
PE, Earth Caste Array, Pask and the rest do not let you re-roll Blasts.

I do understand the other position, but cannot agree that PE allows Blast re-rolls (per my interpretation of Intent)

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
things that give a blanket "reroll to hit" require nothing to be rolled, and have no condition that needs to be met before the attack has a reroll available to use.

No such thing. Other than Twin-Linked (which has a special exception) everything requires a failed To Hit roll.
Double Standard much? You're ignoring one qualifier and insisting another is relevant.

so something that never rolled a 1 to get a reroll you feel gets the reroll?

If a normal unit with PE rolls a 2 to hit, do they have rerolls to hit with PE?

blaktoof wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
things that give a blanket "reroll to hit" require nothing to be rolled, and have no condition that needs to be met before the attack has a reroll available to use.

No such thing. Other than Twin-Linked (which has a special exception) everything requires a failed To Hit roll.
Double Standard much? You're ignoring one qualifier and insisting another is relevant.

so something that never rolled a 1 to get a reroll you feel gets the reroll?

If a normal unit with PE rolls a 2 to hit, do they have rerolls to hit with PE?

And if something with Prescience doesn't miss, it doesn't get a re-roll.

There's a condition attached to that as well, which can't be met with a blast.

You can never "fail a To Hit roll" witha Blast, therefore you can never get a re-roll from Prescience by this logic.