I get why the Riptide and Wraithknight are MCs, but why are Dreadknights MCs according to the fluff? Is there a reason for it or is it just to make Grey Knights cheesy?

Cause there's no clear difference between mc and walkers no more. So yep, for

Because it is a guy strapped into a monstrous pair of trousers and so clearly is not a walker

Isnt a drednought the same thing but just a stump that eats through a straw?

To be honest, where Grey Knights are concerned, the reason is "Because Matt Ward". In the first version (now replaced) if there was a way of slightly tweaking the rules to make them more broken, it was taken. This is an example.

At the same time, I'd guess the argument put forward to the rest of the design studio was "to make it play differently to the dreadnought, which is also in their codex".

This is just the continuing issue of walkers versus monsterous creatures. Making a model a Monsterous Creature generally increases its effectiveness exponentially. The only thing lost is some immunity to small arms fire.

Why does it make sense for a Riptide to be a MC? I see the argument for the Wraithknight but not a Riptide.

pm713 wrote:
Why does it make sense for a Riptide to be a MC? I see the argument for the Wraithknight but not a Riptide.

All Tau suits are fluid in their movements and the Riptide is just a larger version of the same tech. If Riptides became walkers then so would Crisis and Stealth suits. Also, Tau tech is 'smoother' than Imperial tech with everything being more efficient (read the Fire Warrior book for a comparison of IoM transports to the Orca) so they aren't as machine-like as walkers are (the Dreadnought for example waddles everywhere).

Most walkers usually have to have a some what enclosed cockpit or expose very little of the pilot. The Dreadknight comes closer to a giant metal exo-skeleton in that regard than it does a walker. Kind of like bigger power-armor or the Centurions.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Most walkers usually have to have a some what enclosed cockpit or expose very little of the pilot. The Dreadknight comes closer to a giant metal exo-skeleton in that regard than it does a walker. Kind of like bigger power-armor or the Centurions.

That's quite a bad definition of what a walker is to be honest as there are a few open-topped walkers, such as sentinels, pentient engines and war walkers, so why can't the Dreadknight be an open-topped walker? The answer clearly (to me anyway) is that it would suck.

There is no defending the choice between MC and Walker through some concept that one is more fluid than the other. It is an artificial term reflecting a choice of crunch rules and has nothing to do with fluff.

SGTPozy wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Most walkers usually have to have a some what enclosed cockpit or expose very little of the pilot. The Dreadknight comes closer to a giant metal exo-skeleton in that regard than it does a walker. Kind of like bigger power-armor or the Centurions.

That's quite a bad definition of what a walker is to be honest as there are a few open-topped walkers, such as sentinels, pentient engines and war walkers, so why can't the Dreadknight be an open-topped walker? The answer clearly (to me anyway) is that it would suck.

Yes but Sentinels and War-Walkers expose very little of the operator compared to a dreadknight (which has as all 4 limbs and the operator's head exposed). The Armored sentinel can be enclosed and the war-walkers have shields around the cock-pit atleast.

A dreadknight is basically this in a nutshell.



As for the Penitent Engine, I was not aware that was considered a walker.

SGTPozy wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Why does it make sense for a Riptide to be a MC? I see the argument for the Wraithknight but not a Riptide.

All Tau suits are fluid in their movements and the Riptide is just a larger version of the same tech. If Riptides became walkers then so would Crisis and Stealth suits. Also, Tau tech is 'smoother' than Imperial tech with everything being more efficient (read the Fire Warrior book for a comparison of IoM transports to the Orca) so they aren't as machine-like as walkers are (the Dreadnought for example waddles everywhere).

I'm sorry but that's a load of nonsense, a riptide is still a machine with armour plating and mechanics that can go wrong. It should suffer from the same rules as mechanical walkers as dreadnoughts as should the wraithknight and Dreadknight.

A monstrous creature profile is supposed to cover large living organisms not machines. The reasons for MC are purely for rules advantage and cheese not for any reason of fluff!

The same reason Wraithknights and Riptides are: To sell more Citadel plastic kits with superior rules. The best thing that can ever happen to a big unit is to be rated as a MC.

Walker profiles should cover all mechanical vehicles that use appendages to move regardless of how they are piloted.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Most walkers usually have to have a some what enclosed cockpit or expose very little of the pilot. The Dreadknight comes closer to a giant metal exo-skeleton in that regard than it does a walker. Kind of like bigger power-armor or the Centurions.

That's quite a bad definition of what a walker is to be honest as there are a few open-topped walkers, such as sentinels, pentient engines and war walkers, so why can't the Dreadknight be an open-topped walker? The answer clearly (to me anyway) is that it would suck.

Yes but Sentinels and War-Walkers expose very little of the operator compared to a dreadknight (which has as all 4 limbs and the operator's head exposed). The Armored sentinel can be enclosed and the war-walkers have shields around the cock-pit atleast.

A dreadknight is basically this in a nutshell.



As for the Penitent Engine, I was not aware that was considered a walker.

At what level of exposure does an open-topped walker turn into a MC then? Doesn't the Dreadknight pilot have some sort of force field too? If that is true, then your point is invalid.

Also, that picture is very inaccurate as it is terminator armour over terminator armour as it has a 2+ save; not 3+ and the pilot is in terminator armour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ugly Green Trog wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Why does it make sense for a Riptide to be a MC? I see the argument for the Wraithknight but not a Riptide.

All Tau suits are fluid in their movements and the Riptide is just a larger version of the same tech. If Riptides became walkers then so would Crisis and Stealth suits. Also, Tau tech is 'smoother' than Imperial tech with everything being more efficient (read the Fire Warrior book for a comparison of IoM transports to the Orca) so they aren't as machine-like as walkers are (the Dreadnought for example waddles everywhere).

I'm sorry but that's a load of nonsense, a riptide is still a machine with armour plating and mechanics that can go wrong. It should suffer from the same rules as mechanical walkers as dreadnoughts as should the wraithknight and Dreadknight.

A monstrous creature profile is supposed to cover large living organisms not machines. The reasons for MC are purely for rules advantage and cheese not for any reason of fluff!

Is a space marine a walker then? It is in a mechanical suit with electronics, so surely that should be a walker too!

Its really simple.

If the model can scratch his face, then it can be a MC

Dreadnoughts obviously cannot reach there face so its a walker.
Sentinels have no hands
Pentient engines have no hands
ect ect

 Desubot wrote:
Its really simple.

If the model can scratch his face, then it can be a MC

Dreadnoughts obviously cannot reach there face so its a walker.
Sentinels have no hands
Pentient engines have no hands
ect ect

My conscript can scratch his face, so is he a MC?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The same reason Wraithknights and Riptides are: To sell more Citadel plastic kits with superior rules. The best thing that can ever happen to a big unit is to be rated as a MC.

Super heavy walkers are better than MCs, especially the IK with its 5/4/3+ invulnerable save, armour 13 and D strength cc.

Does that mean they have to re-define the Orkanauts ? Im sure they could manage the face scratching thing if the pilot re-directed the claw and punched it in the face. The arm seems long enough to. Also the riptide dosnt seem capable of even reaching its head (the arms look too short) and its a monstrous creature.

Hmm mabye i have to rephrase that as things with actual hands and not handy attachments count as not vehicles

Riptide hands are retracted in.

GW just needs to make a new unit type: Monstrous Walkers (or something like that) and give them a mixture of walker and MC rules.
For example, some sort of damage table, scrapping AP2 cc, making unwieldy affect them etc.

Personally i think there should be no vehicles. but thats my personal opinion.

And on the issue of monstrous creatures, some one mind explaining how you can poison a Riptide or Dreadknight realistically ?

Is there some kind of metal poison out there I am currently unaware of or do they aim for where the pilot would be and get lucky ?

Also does Haywire work against monstrous creatures or only on things defined as mechanical ?

Desu! Come play Kill Team with me! I've just been getting into it again and I forgot how fun it is.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
And on the issue of monstrous creatures, some one mind explaining how you can poison a Riptide or Dreadknight realistically ?

Is there some kind of metal poison out there I am currently unaware of or do they aim for where the pilot would be and get lucky ?

Also does Haywire work against monstrous creatures or only on things defined as mechanical ?

5th ed explained it as localized EMP bursts and acidic substance....

I agree with you, but then we spark the Snipers vs Necrons/absolutely anything firing bullets vs Daemons argument for the billionth time

The Imperial Answer wrote:
And on the issue of monstrous creatures, some one mind explaining how you can poison a Riptide or Dreadknight realistically ?

Is there some kind of metal poison out there I am currently unaware of or do they aim for where the pilot would be and get lucky ?

Also does Haywire work against monstrous creatures or only on things defined as mechanical ?

100% agree, which is another reason why they should make a new unit class, however how do you poison an Astartes? They are covered in armour.

Well there are joints gaps and eye holes.
The concept is

Roll to hit: Did i hit?
Roll to wounds: did the poison needle penetrate the skin? or did the round hit something vital like an artery?
Armor saves: success: Damn it hit the armor and stoped it. Failed: It went right in between the armor joint. or right in the peep hole.

as for the Riptide? Eh i guess you could blind it if you hit the eye lense.

The Dread: its only a baby carrier

The wraith: i have no clue how your bonee bone works.

Edit: Also quickjager do i know you IRL? im terrabad with online names :/

This has me wondering, are eldar titans defined as creatures too given they're grown like wraith-knights are ?

Not rules-wise, but fluffwise they will be

 Desubot wrote:
Its really simple.

If the model can scratch his face, then it can be a MC

Dreadnoughts obviously cannot reach there face so its a walker.
Sentinels have no hands
Pentient engines have no hands
ect ect

PEngines have at least two hands, which might end in giant buzzsaws. You could shave with those, if you were careful... and not an insane, pain-maddened heretic.

"Once a Grey Knight is strapped into the command harness on the Dreadknight’s front, synaptic implants give him complete control of the machine’s limbs and weapon systems –Essentially transforming him into a metal giant." Grey Knights Codex entry for Dreadknight. A walker is controlled through mechanical controls and what not, and are less graceful and fluid. the dreadknight is not a clunk or slow as a dreadnought. it is more like an anime battle robot suit (read tau)

 GKTiberius wrote:
"Once a Grey Knight is strapped into the command harness on the Dreadknight’s front, synaptic implants give him complete control of the machine’s limbs and weapon systems –Essentially transforming him into a metal giant." Grey Knights Codex entry for Dreadknight. A walker is controlled through mechanical controls and what not, and are less graceful and fluid. the dreadknight is not a clunk or slow as a dreadnought. it is more like an anime battle robot suit (read tau)

Yaknow a dreadnought is basically a dude that is 100% connected to the machine to control

usually dudes that get gravely injured but given a second chance to serve.

 Desubot wrote:
Personally i think there should be no vehicles. but thats my personal opinion.

yeah... vehicles should straight up just have tough values on each facing, with a # of wounds, and should actually get fething armour saves while we are at it.

almost every edition has moved towards them being more MC like, additiong of HP's being the latest,

but really, they need to be treated as MC's so that walkers dont suck. they can still differentiate between "mechanical huge things" and organic huge things so that armourebane/poisen/tank-monster hunter/ect dont become superfluous.


so the answer to the OP question,

is they are MC's because of reasons,
they are walkers, also because of reasons.

any questions = heresy and will result in exterminatus with extreme prejudice!

 easysauce wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Personally i think there should be no vehicles. but thats my personal opinion.

yeah... vehicles should straight up just have tough values on each facing, with a # of wounds, and should actually get fething armour saves while we are at it.

almost every edition has moved towards them being more MC like, additiong of HP's being the latest,

but really, they need to be treated as MC's so that walkers dont suck. they can still differentiate between "mechanical huge things" and organic huge things so that armourebane/poisen/tank-monster hunter/ect dont become superfluous.


so the answer to the OP question,

is they are MC's because of reasons,
they are walkers, also because of reasons.

any questions = heresy and will result in exterminatus with extreme prejudice!

Heck we could have meltas do D3-6 damage and stuff too. things like that.

yeah, personally Im not a fan of D6 systems in general, ESP the new AP system, as it reduces the # of outcomes you can have, and things like armour modifiers allow for much more diversity and specialization for weapons then the AP system does.

d10 I think gets you to the point where you ahve enough options so that you can create enough "power levels" to make much more sense then with a d6, and while you can get more options with say 2d6, you cannot really roll a whole whack of 2d6's as you can with a bunch of d10's.

 Desubot wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
"Once a Grey Knight is strapped into the command harness on the Dreadknight’s front, synaptic implants give him complete control of the machine’s limbs and weapon systems –Essentially transforming him into a metal giant." Grey Knights Codex entry for Dreadknight. A walker is controlled through mechanical controls and what not, and are less graceful and fluid. the dreadknight is not a clunk or slow as a dreadnought. it is more like an anime battle robot suit (read tau)

Yaknow a dreadnought is basically a dude that is 100% connected to the machine to control

usually dudes that get gravely injured but given a second chance to serve.

Exactly, so why is a Dreadknight a MC? Because GKs are a very cheesy army which has to be one up on marines because they're super duper marines who are super kewl and do kewl things.

 Desubot wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
"Once a Grey Knight is strapped into the command harness on the Dreadknight’s front, synaptic implants give him complete control of the machine’s limbs and weapon systems –Essentially transforming him into a metal giant." Grey Knights Codex entry for Dreadknight. A walker is controlled through mechanical controls and what not, and are less graceful and fluid. the dreadknight is not a clunk or slow as a dreadnought. it is more like an anime battle robot suit (read tau)

Yaknow a dreadnought is basically a dude that is 100% connected to the machine to control

usually dudes that get gravely injured but given a second chance to serve.

So wouldn't it make a lot more sense for the Dreadnought to be a MC and the Riptide to be a walker? The washing machine is the Dreadnought's body. He isn't piloting it. Whereas a Riptide has a pilot inside it.

SGTPozy wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
"Once a Grey Knight is strapped into the command harness on the Dreadknight’s front, synaptic implants give him complete control of the machine’s limbs and weapon systems –Essentially transforming him into a metal giant." Grey Knights Codex entry for Dreadknight. A walker is controlled through mechanical controls and what not, and are less graceful and fluid. the dreadknight is not a clunk or slow as a dreadnought. it is more like an anime battle robot suit (read tau)

Yaknow a dreadnought is basically a dude that is 100% connected to the machine to control

usually dudes that get gravely injured but given a second chance to serve.

Exactly, so why is a Dreadknight a MC? Because GKs are a very cheesy army which has to be one up on marines because they're super duper marines who are super kewl and do kewl things.

At the risk of incurring your further Butt-hurt wrath, I must whole heartedly disagree. GK is not cheesy or over powered. They ate a mid tier army at best right now (I'm not counting hybrid and ally armies. That is where the new strength in the game is at and really isn't what we are talking about). As far as the fluff the dreadnought pilots are severely injured and as such probably have some limitations. But also the nature and shape of the dreadnoughts prevent them from being super agile and MC like. Contemptor dreads were probably more graceful originally due to their design. But are so old that they probably don't work as well as they once did. Also in the fluff they are an elite force that is superior to normal a started as a necessity to combat daemons. But the only translation to the table top that this has is a difference in gear. If normal marines had access to ap3 force weapons they would be almost exactly the same. We pay for those swords and other gear in that strike squads are almost double the cost of tac squads, and we have access to very situational squad weapons where as tacs have aces to a greater degree of flexibility.

If you want to complain that is fine, but articulate what you don't like. Don't just catagorically dismiss the army out of hand. It sound to me like you may be regurgitating the same Internet tripe about gk without really looking at the army. I could be wrong. Maybe your meta has a super strong gk aspect and may be marine or Meq heavy. Or you may play daemons. Reguardless, every army has strong units and tactical strengths, and GK is by no means the most cheesy and no where near broken.

Can MCs be insta-killed ?

Yes. They can be. they only have Fear, Hammer of Wrath, Move Through Cover, Relentless and Smash

So the Dread-Knight and for that matter, the riptide and wraith-knight can be insta-killed ?


Also I think the dread-knight's classification also boils down to it being more nimble and agile than a walker should be.

It is supposed to be fighting other monstrous creatures in the form of Greater Daemons. It takes a great degree of agility to even match a Greater Daemon in combat, let alone beat one.

Dreadknights were fluffed up as tools for fighting Greater Daemons, they could not accomplish that very well with walker rules. They were also said to be a technology of unknown origin, so if you can excuse xenos-machines being MCs then you can just assume the GKs pilfered the technology from xenos.

The Dreadknight uses Tau tech (look at the feet), but IoM's tech is extremely inefficient so how can they match the Tau when all they are doing is copying?

The Dreadknight and Riptide can only be insta-killed by force weapons (something GKs spam).

Animus basically said that it was to make them cheesy as otherwise they wouldn't be super nooby against Greater Daemons... And 'Nids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GKTiberius wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
"Once a Grey Knight is strapped into the command harness on the Dreadknight’s front, synaptic implants give him complete control of the machine’s limbs and weapon systems –Essentially transforming him into a metal giant." Grey Knights Codex entry for Dreadknight. A walker is controlled through mechanical controls and what not, and are less graceful and fluid. the dreadknight is not a clunk or slow as a dreadnought. it is more like an anime battle robot suit (read tau)

Yaknow a dreadnought is basically a dude that is 100% connected to the machine to control

usually dudes that get gravely injured but given a second chance to serve.

Exactly, so why is a Dreadknight a MC? Because GKs are a very cheesy army which has to be one up on marines because they're super duper marines who are super kewl and do kewl things.

At the risk of incurring your further Butt-hurt wrath, I must whole heartedly disagree. GK is not cheesy or over powered. They ate a mid tier army at best right now (I'm not counting hybrid and ally armies. That is where the new strength in the game is at and really isn't what we are talking about). As far as the fluff the dreadnought pilots are severely injured and as such probably have some limitations. But also the nature and shape of the dreadnoughts prevent them from being super agile and MC like. Contemptor dreads were probably more graceful originally due to their design. But are so old that they probably don't work as well as they once did. Also in the fluff they are an elite force that is superior to normal a started as a necessity to combat daemons. But the only translation to the table top that this has is a difference in gear. If normal marines had access to ap3 force weapons they would be almost exactly the same. We pay for those swords and other gear in that strike squads are almost double the cost of tac squads, and we have access to very situational squad weapons where as tacs have aces to a greater degree of flexibility.

If you want to complain that is fine, but articulate what you don't like. Don't just catagorically dismiss the army out of hand. It sound to me like you may be regurgitating the same Internet tripe about gk without really looking at the army. I could be wrong. Maybe your meta has a super strong gk aspect and may be marine or Meq heavy. Or you may play daemons. Reguardless, every army has strong units and tactical strengths, and GK is by no means the most cheesy and no where near broken.

All I want to say is that I am the one who spreads the "internet tripe". Mwahahahaha!

No, they don't.

IoM tech is greater than the Tau, there is no reason they should steal anything.

Considering the imperium lost alot of its tech and doesn't make anymore? While the tau are still developing tech that is improving alot with each codex that comes out (progression of fluff ect)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another point, if imperial tech is better than tau how come theres so much hate to the stuff tau have access to? (massed ap2 and ignore cover). Sure space marines always have to be +1 to other books just look at grav guns and dreadknights but fluff wise tau have superior tech but would get an ass lovin if the imperium actually full on attacked them

They are still centuries from apporaching the mid level technology of the DAoT.

Regardless, currently they are not as advanced as the technology available to the Imperium. They are slightly above the general technology of the Astra Militarium currently, but the Grey Knights in particular are well ahead of them. The idea that they would need to steal technology for the feet of a walker from the Tau is silly.

 PhillyT wrote:
No, they don't.

IoM tech is greater than the Tau, there is no reason they should steal anything.

Considering that before GKs stole Tau tech, the IoM could only produce walkers and not MCs (and everyone knows that MC > walker) I can totally see how Imperial tech is superior <sarcasm>.

IoM tech WAS greater in their prime, but not in 40k. They are stagnant in technological development, so they have to resort to stealing tech. Tau and 'Nids are the only races who are advancing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 total0 wrote:
Considering the imperium lost alot of its tech and doesn't make anymore? While the tau are still developing tech that is improving alot with each codex that comes out (progression of fluff ect)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another point, if imperial tech is better than tau how come theres so much hate to the stuff tau have access to? (massed ap2 and ignore cover). Sure space marines always have to be +1 to other books just look at grav guns and dreadknights but fluff wise tau have superior tech but would get an ass lovin if the imperium actually full on attacked them

Exactly, our basic guns are better than their basic guns, so who wins? Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PhillyT wrote:
They are still centuries from apporaching the mid level technology of the DAoT.

Regardless, currently they are not as advanced as the technology available to the Imperium. They are slightly above the general technology of the Astra Militarium currently, but the Grey Knights in particular are well ahead of them. The idea that they would need to steal technology for the feet of a walker from the Tau is silly.

Yes, but DAoT tech is generally lost, and this isn't during the DAoT, this is 40k, where the Tau supercede IoM tech. Why is it that Tau guns are better then?
GK are only better than space marines because of Matt Ward and you know it!

The Riptide isn't a walker (like the Dreadknight should be), it is a MC!

You're trying to connect crunch with fluff, as though the IoM has any understanding of what MC or walkers as rules sets are. The current crunch supports MC as superior in many ways (though not all ways) to vehicle rule sets. They are better in some ways (ignoring entire classes of weapons).

The Imperium isn't really stealing tech. They are against it. Tau fans need to get their stories straight. Some claim the Imperium is too stupid to reverse engineer tech. Others are claiming that they are intentionally stealing foot design.

The Imperium is still light years ahead of the Tau in walker/battle suit design. Power armor, terminator armor, dreadnaught armor, knights, and titans are all equal to or greater than the stealth, crisis, broadside, and riptide designs. They all feature different philosophic approaches, the IoM supporting durability over the Tau's choice of maneuverability.

And of course the Tau are presented as continuing to advance. If they didn't have that, the only other thing they have as a hook for players is that they accept opther aliens as second class citizens. It is those two concepts that make Tau Tau. That doesn't somehow make them better technologically. The Eldar and Necron are uncountable millennia ahead of them. DAoT is many multiples ahead, regardless of how much of it has been lost, that which remains is still significantly ahead. tech is

The Imperium is hypocritical. They say to kill all xenos, yet Jokaero are cool. They say to kill the mutant, but certain abhumans (ogryns and ratlings) are fine. They say not to use xeno tech, yet xeno inquisitors use it.

IoM players need to get their stories straight. They are not the best in 40k, progress the story forward a little bit and they will crumble due to Chaos, Tyranids, Orks and Necrons.

Light years measure distance, not time, so where are we measuring the tech from? I say from the west so the Tau win as they are further away.

Tau designs are more efficient and they make new tech to combat their enemies. HYMP were invented to tackle Orks and Tyranids etc.
Titans take stupendous amounts of resources to make (the Tau could probably make a maximum of two), yet the Tau designed the Tiger Shark to take them down which took a fraction of resources to create.
Now do you understand why Tau tech is superior? Those that adapt survive - natural selection.

That last paragraph... Is so stupid. What if space marines were presented as just being regular humans rather than super humans, would you like them then? What if the IoM was actually really small and Eldar hadn't been largely destroyed by Slaanesb, would you still like them?

Your final part, about how DAoT tech is superior to Eldar and Necron tech is largely my argument for Tau vs IoM. You say that Tau tech can't be better as they haven't been around as long, well then how can DAoT tech be better than Eldar/Necron tech when they are two of the oldest races?

Isn't that little rant a little bit off topic for this thread?

SGTPozy wrote:
The Imperium is hypocritical. They say to kill all xenos, yet Jokaero are cool. They say to kill the mutant, but certain abhumans (ogryns and ratlings) are fine. They say not to use xeno tech, yet xeno inquisitors use it.

IoM players need to get their stories straight. They are not the best in 40k, progress the story forward a little bit and they will crumble due to Chaos, Tyranids, Orks and Necrons.

Light years measure distance, not time, so where are we measuring the tech from? I say from the west so the Tau win as they are further away.

Tau designs are more efficient and they make new tech to combat their enemies. HYMP were invented to tackle Orks and Tyranids etc.
Titans take stupendous amounts of resources to make (the Tau could probably make a maximum of two), yet the Tau designed the Tiger Shark to take them down which took a fraction of resources to create.
Now do you understand why Tau tech is superior? Those that adapt survive - natural selection.

That last paragraph... Is so stupid. What if space marines were presented as just being regular humans rather than super humans, would you like them then? What if the IoM was actually really small and Eldar hadn't been largely destroyed by Slaanesb, would you still like them?

Your final part, about how DAoT tech is superior to Eldar and Necron tech is largely my argument for Tau vs IoM. You say that Tau tech can't be better as they haven't been around as long, well then how can DAoT tech be better than Eldar/Necron tech when they are two of the oldest races?

Oooo I'll jump in on this

Tau military tech is equal or better than Imperial guard (F astra milistupid), guard have a carapace the same as Tau, a metric ton more plasma/melta etc.
Guard tanks are more durable and run on any combustable material (think about that, that's massive tech right there), Tau have better AT and Skimmer tech (arguably better in most situations)
Guard has Nuetron lasers on ground based chassis, Tau have no equivilant, Tau have Heavy Rail tech on a flyer, Guard have no Equiv.
Guard have Lasguns, these alone are a higher tech than Pulse rifles, pulse rifles are a lot stronger but do not have the rugged nature or the adaptability of lasguns (hot shot, assault etc.), remember power does not equate better tech.

So just going through the basic stuff on the front line we can see that Tau and guard are roughly equal in terms of tech, now lets add the bigger stuff.

Battlesuits, guard have no... oh wait they do, not as good I admit but they have sentinals, which are basically the same thing just different rules, fast moving vehicles that take medium to heavy weapons,
Tau win this one though as I feel making a man fly with any degree of control is very difficult, but making a "walker" is also very difficult.
Riptides, guard have no equiv.... oh wait they do, super heavy vehicles, again these are comparable simply because the mindset is the same for there creation (ignore rules here), both are massive engines
of war designed to dominate there part of the battlefield through superior firepower, size and bulk are disregarded and the biggest guns are strapped to these machines. Guard win this one.

Flyers.
On the whole id say Tau win this, guard flyers are tough as usual but the tech doesn't seem to be as advanced in terms of missiles and avionics, while as far as im aware tau do not have a aircraft other than the manta that can do both space and atmospherical combat (again that tech alone would change the world these days), looking at the models and what little fluff there is on tau flyers seem to give them the edge.

BIG GUNSSSSSSSSSSS
Guard win this hands down, Tau have the Ion accelerator (massively advanced), Guard have Nuetron cannons and Meson beams, that's incredible from a theoretical standpoint, they also have access to
a bewildering array of super heavy weapons, as far as im aware Tau have the 1, the heavy railgun and fireing slugs along a magnatised rail isn't as advanced as the above, its pretty damn advanced, but not as difficult.

So in my opinion just covering a few things, we can see that Tau are more advanced in terms of armour and certain ground level weapons, but not advanced the further up the scale we go, if we start to add things like medical tech, genetic engineering, starships etc. Tau start to fall even further behind, so where this myth that Tau are more advanced than the imperium comes from I do not know, they will be more advanced, but its along way away

 total0 wrote:
Considering the imperium lost alot of its tech and doesn't make anymore? While the tau are still developing tech that is improving alot with each codex that comes out (progression of fluff ect)


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Another point, if imperial tech is better than tau how come theres so much hate to the stuff tau have access to? (massed ap2 and ignore cover). Sure space marines always have to be +1 to other books just look at grav guns and dreadknights but fluff wise tau have superior tech but would get an ass lovin if the imperium actually full on attacked them

The only reason they appear to have more advance tech is because they dont have the logistics issues the Imperium does. The tau are just a few star systems and worlds. The Imperium is close to a million worlds. There is no number on the amount of humans serving under-arms in the Astra Militarum or the Imperial Navy. It cannot afford to out-fit everyone with their best technology, which is hoarded jealously by the Adeptus Mechanicus. If the imperium was only a hand full of sectors like the Tau, their technology would seem far more advance because their resources wouldn't be stretched as thin.

I think the main issue here is when something is made a MC vs a Walker some rules are rather important:

Poison: DE's just love MC's.
Does it make sense that a Dreadknight can be poisoned?
I guess the pilot with his force-field can get nailed on occasion so sure.

Dreadnaught is a big metal life support unit with no bits hanging out so makes sense as a walker.

Eldar constructs are somewhat living things with soul-stones plugged in so could make the case as MC's.

Riptides and Tau suits in general... now it all falls apart for me.
No fleshy parts hanging out, completely mechanical.
We could say the "normal" suits work out to little more than a space marine's power armor.

I just have no reply for the Riptide other than cheese.

The Riptide itself appears to just be one big battlesuit-armor.

In the damocles anthology Straken had no problem taking out a riptide by stabbing his knife through a riptides neck and killing the wearer.

In the death watch RPG they also show that as far as crisis suits go, the head portion is just a helmate.

In a few of the novels, like Engine of Mork, they show stealth suits are simply just power-armor.

Pacific Rim

Big-ass suits of armour designed to shoot the Gak out of bio-hazardous critters that the Nids love so much

only, due to their expansionist attitude, the biohazardous critters are, in this case, Battle Tanks of the Militarum

And the lumbering Warmachines of the orks.

In fact, the Tau Codex mentions the Riptides devolopment stemmed from seeing the monstrous war-engines of their enemies like the Imperial Titans and Ork Gargants.

"To fight monsters, we need monsters"

Honestly, the biggest issue with all of this is the notion that fluff in someway is being reflected in the crunch. It simply isn't true. There is no reason to think that the foot design of the Dreadknight suddenly means it is a retro engineered design of the Tau. It is absurd.

Similarly, the idea that giving a model MC rules instead of vehicle rules is an intentional attempt to reflect either a higher level of function or technology. It isn't. It is a decision by individual game designers to add variety to the units. The Dreadknight was given walker states most likely to separate it from the dreadnought in terms of function and to give it the role of fighting greater demons, which vehicles really can't do.

Tau suits are MC because they are basically just adding new larger suits to prexisting crisis suits etc. Making it suddenly a vehicle would have mucked up the synergy of the army, which generally lacks large number of vehicle profiles. It was easier to do.

There is nothing to the notion that making them MC was done to reflect higher tech, because that isn't relevant. There is nothing in the MC rules that creates that idea that it is better than walkers. They are different. Triarch Tombstalkers are FAR ahead of any other "walker" type model technologically, and they have a vehicle profile.

Lets not get too far off the topic by trying to act as thoguh MC/wlaker choices are anything other than crunch decisions and a sign of GW inconsistency.

 Melissia wrote:
Isn't that little rant a little bit off topic for this thread?

naaaah

 PhillyT wrote:
Honestly, the biggest issue with all of this is the notion that fluff in someway is being reflected in the crunch. It simply isn't true. There is no reason to think that the foot design of the Dreadknight suddenly means it is a retro engineered design of the Tau. It is absurd.

Similarly, the idea that giving a model MC rules instead of vehicle rules is an intentional attempt to reflect either a higher level of function or technology. It isn't. It is a decision by individual game designers to add variety to the units. The Dreadknight was given walker states most likely to separate it from the dreadnought in terms of function and to give it the role of fighting greater demons, which vehicles really can't do.

Tau suits are MC because they are basically just adding new larger suits to prexisting crisis suits etc. Making it suddenly a vehicle would have mucked up the synergy of the army, which generally lacks large number of vehicle profiles. It was easier to do.

There is nothing to the notion that making them MC was done to reflect higher tech, because that isn't relevant. There is nothing in the MC rules that creates that idea that it is better than walkers. They are different. Triarch Tombstalkers are FAR ahead of any other "walker" type model technologically, and they have a vehicle profile.

Lets not get too far off the topic by trying to act as thoguh MC/wlaker choices are anything other than crunch decisions and a sign of GW inconsistency.

I agree, tis why I ignored rules and basically tried to imagine the design thought behind certain things.

Like the Riptide, it IS the Tau super heavy, it has the same concept (assuming it was all real of course) behind it.
Same with Sentinals and Battlesuits, up armoured platforms to carry the medium to heavy weapons and protect the occupant as much as possible, highly mobile and able to match infantry on infantry warzones.

 Formosa wrote:

Like the Riptide, it IS the Tau super heavy, it has the same concept (assuming it was all real of course) behind it.

The only super-heavy tau doctrine will allow is one that flys (atleast till next year when forgeworld finally un-veils what the Tau Super Heavy ground unit they're releasing is going to be).

Also the riptide was conceived as a heavier weapons platform that could stand up to the increasingly hostile warzones the Firecaste was finding. The concept wasn't to build a super-heavy ground unit, which the tau frowned upon as being in-efficient (at the time they still thought like that).

That does raise the question of can a super-heavy power-armor can be built and "worn" in the traditional sense.

The only super heavy the tau doctrine "would" have allowed "was" a flying one, and I agree, however as you stated they encountered these things elsewhere, so they built an equivalent useing there own design ethic and technology, it is not a super heavy by imperial or other races standards but is by tau standards, it is literally a super heavy battlesuit.

As fair weaponry, they gave it the best area domination weapon they could, and have since started to adapt said weaponry with the other types of tides.

Compare a Leman Russ to a baneblade, now compare a battlesuit to a riptide, same concepts, take an already existing idea (tank or battlesuit respectively) and try to scale it up.

 Formosa wrote:
The only super heavy the tau doctrine "would" have allowed "was" a flying one, and I agree, however as you stated they encountered these things elsewhere, so they built an equivalent useing there own design ethic and technology, it is not a super heavy by imperial or other races standards but is by tau standards, it is literally a super heavy battlesuit.

As fair weaponry, they gave it the best area domination weapon they could, and have since started to adapt said weaponry with the other types of tides.

Compare a Leman Russ to a baneblade, now compare a battlesuit to a riptide, same concepts, take an already existing idea (tank or battlesuit respectively) and try to scale it up.

In the case of the Russ and baneblade, I believe the baneblade pre-dated the russ.

But scaling something up does not always make it a super-heavy by design. The Ork Mega-dread was meant to be a scaled up version of the normal dread but it is far from a super-heavy. According to the tau they just wanted a "heavy" battlesuit.

Also in the naming designation system for battlesuits, the "10" designation is heavy, with the Crisis "8" being the standard, and the stealth suits "2" being light. So no designation for a super-heavy battlesuit exists as of yet.

The Baneblade was an upscaled version of the battle tanks of that period though. Same essential idea.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
The only super heavy the tau doctrine "would" have allowed "was" a flying one, and I agree, however as you stated they encountered these things elsewhere, so they built an equivalent useing there own design ethic and technology, it is not a super heavy by imperial or other races standards but is by tau standards, it is literally a super heavy battlesuit.

As fair weaponry, they gave it the best area domination weapon they could, and have since started to adapt said weaponry with the other types of tides.

Compare a Leman Russ to a baneblade, now compare a battlesuit to a riptide, same concepts, take an already existing idea (tank or battlesuit respectively) and try to scale it up.

In the case of the Russ and baneblade, I believe the baneblade pre-dated the russ.

But scaling something up does not always make it a super-heavy by design. The Ork Mega-dread was meant to be a scaled up version of the normal dread but it is far from a super-heavy. According to the tau they just wanted a "heavy" battlesuit.

Also in the naming designation system for battlesuits, the "10" designation is heavy, with the Crisis "8" being the standard, and the stealth suits "2" being light. So no designation for a super-heavy battlesuit exists as of yet.

I think what is being missed here is the distinction of what a super heavy is, im not referring to the unit type "super heavy" im referring to the massive gap in size, structure and cost, a Riptide is magnitudes harder to produce than a battlesuit, carries much much heavier weaponry but has the same basic design, right down to the way its piloted and operated, so they have basically got an existing vehicle and made it much more advanced in terms of design and production.

Look at it this way, on one hand you have a Sherman tank, a medium tank, now compare it to a challenger or abrams, in the thinking of the 2nd world war both would be considered super heavies as they far outclass the heavy tanks of the time, thus you look at the riptide and see it so far outstrips the "Sherman" of its time that it is considered a super heavy vehicle but without the ruleset.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
The Riptide itself appears to just be one big battlesuit-armor.

In the damocles anthology Straken had no problem taking out a riptide by stabbing his knife through a riptides neck and killing the wearer.

In the death watch RPG they also show that as far as crisis suits go, the head portion is just a helmate.

In a few of the novels, like Engine of Mork, they show stealth suits are simply just power-armor.

That is... very odd. The pilot's head is not in the head of a battlesuit, that is just where the visual sensor arrays are. It's just that tau use a sort of neural connection, so they pilot the suits with their minds. It would be very weird to get used to having eyes in your chest, so the sensors are in a head, which also means that the sensors have a range of movement.

Stealth suits are quite a bit like power armour, just with a ridiculous cloaking/invisibility device.

Also, killing the pilot of a riptide with a knife through the neck is silly. A sword through the body or a downward stab through the neck with a sword would have a pretty good chance of killing the pilot. A knife might be able to mess with the wiring of the suit, but it would not reach the user (unless it was a very long knife ).


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The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Like the Riptide, it IS the Tau super heavy, it has the same concept (assuming it was all real of course) behind it.

The only super-heavy tau doctrine will allow is one that flys (atleast till next year when forgeworld finally un-veils what the Tau Super Heavy ground unit they're releasing is going to be).

Also the riptide was conceived as a heavier weapons platform that could stand up to the increasingly hostile warzones the Firecaste was finding. The concept wasn't to build a super-heavy ground unit, which the tau frowned upon as being in-efficient (at the time they still thought like that).

That does raise the question of can a super-heavy power-armor can be built and "worn" in the traditional sense.

Well, crisis and up are not really worn, but the way they are piloted makes it similar. the suits are plugged into the tau pilot, and the suit is controlled by the pilot's mind. It's like the suit is an extension of the pilot's body, an combined with very sensitive motors, makes it move like a living thing. A bit like a mechanical limb, but your whole body.

My idea of a MC is that it is more agile and less specialized than a walker, where as a walker is designed for an express purpose such as Anti-Armor Anti-Infantry. I think of an MC mainly as a substitution of a squad, with a little beefing up

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
The Riptide itself appears to just be one big battlesuit-armor.

In the damocles anthology Straken had no problem taking out a riptide by stabbing his knife through a riptides neck and killing the wearer.

In the death watch RPG they also show that as far as crisis suits go, the head portion is just a helmate.

In a few of the novels, like Engine of Mork, they show stealth suits are simply just power-armor.

That is... very odd. The pilot's head is not in the head of a battlesuit, that is just where the visual sensor arrays are. It's just that tau use a sort of neural connection, so they pilot the suits with their minds. It would be very weird to get used to having eyes in your chest, so the sensors are in a head, which also means that the sensors have a range of movement.

Stealth suits are quite a bit like power armour, just with a ridiculous cloaking/invisibility device.

Also, killing the pilot of a riptide with a knife through the neck is silly. A sword through the body or a downward stab through the neck with a sword would have a pretty good chance of killing the pilot. A knife might be able to mess with the wiring of the suit, but it would not reach the user (unless it was a very long knife ).

I was wrong. From what it said in the Damocles Anthology Straken

"plunged a metallic arm deep into the battlesuit's neck joint, rooting around before yanking half of a bloody tau head from the aperture he had torn in its metal hide."

That makes more sense. Although still a bit silly.

Aren't pretty much all walkers of the crisis suit, riptide, kan, deff dredd, dreadnaught, Imperial knight, titan variety controlled by a mind link system anyway? Seems like a pretty ubiquitous technology!

 PhillyT wrote:
Aren't pretty much all walkers of the crisis suit, riptide, kan, deff dredd, dreadnaught, Imperial knight, titan variety controlled by a mind link system anyway? Seems like a pretty ubiquitous technology!

Kans and Ork Dreads use a mix of technology. It can be anything from being wired into the machine to literally using levers, pedals and buttons to control the machine.

A better question is why is the Soul Grinder (a unit that is 90% daemon) a walker and not a monsterous creature?

Basically what is more of a MC, a Soul Grinder or a Riptide?
Pretty goddamn silly isnt it?

rules wise the soulgrinder is clearly a vehicle because at the time they didn't want yet another MC and it added variety, in universe, its bloody stupid

The soul-grinder in the lore is meant to be a daemon engine, all of which are walkers and a unique blend of daemon and machinery.

Its also supposed to be similar to the Defiler or it just happens to share the same lower body with it for some odd reason.

The Soul Grinder is one of those classifications that surprised me like the Lord of Skulls.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Aren't pretty much all walkers of the crisis suit, riptide, kan, deff dredd, dreadnaught, Imperial knight, titan variety controlled by a mind link system anyway? Seems like a pretty ubiquitous technology!

Kans and Ork Dreads use a mix of technology. It can be anything from being wired into the machine to literally using levers, pedals and buttons to control the machine.

Those are the exception thrown in to allow players flexibility. The vast majority use a mind linking system.

Stompa on the other hand are crewed like a vehicle.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Like the Riptide, it IS the Tau super heavy, it has the same concept (assuming it was all real of course) behind it.

The only super-heavy tau doctrine will allow is one that flys (atleast till next year when forgeworld finally un-veils what the Tau Super Heavy ground unit they're releasing is going to be).

Also the riptide was conceived as a heavier weapons platform that could stand up to the increasingly hostile warzones the Firecaste was finding. The concept wasn't to build a super-heavy ground unit, which the tau frowned upon as being in-efficient (at the time they still thought like that).

That does raise the question of can a super-heavy power-armor can be built and "worn" in the traditional sense.

pretty much all titans are controlled by a Mind link interface, so I imagine that becomes almost a requirement with super heavy walkers beyond a certin point

BrianDavion wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Like the Riptide, it IS the Tau super heavy, it has the same concept (assuming it was all real of course) behind it.

The only super-heavy tau doctrine will allow is one that flys (atleast till next year when forgeworld finally un-veils what the Tau Super Heavy ground unit they're releasing is going to be).

Also the riptide was conceived as a heavier weapons platform that could stand up to the increasingly hostile warzones the Firecaste was finding. The concept wasn't to build a super-heavy ground unit, which the tau frowned upon as being in-efficient (at the time they still thought like that).

That does raise the question of can a super-heavy power-armor can be built and "worn" in the traditional sense.

pretty much all titans are controlled by a Mind link interface, so I imagine that becomes almost a requirement with super heavy walkers beyond a certin point

Except Ork and perhaps chaos ones. Actually does daemonic possession count as mind link ? Somethings mind is technically running the machine but im not sure if its really comparable to how the imperium and eldar interface with their titans.

 Formosa wrote:
rules wise the soulgrinder is clearly a vehicle because at the time they didn't want yet another MC and it added variety, in universe, its bloody stupid

Technology.

Orks, Space Marines, Daemons, and the IG have crappy tech, so they get Walkers.

Grey Knights, Eldar, and Tau have good tech, so they get MCs.

Isn't that easy to see?

Daemon technology outstrips and outperforms a lot of the mortal races. It just seems more primitive because that's the form it takes if it can even be called technology.

As for the Tau and Greyknight technology is only good because those factions all have minuscule numbers and don't have to worry about the logistics of out-fitting sprawling, vast armies. Meanwhile the Guard and Orks are without number so not everyone is going to have the best technology. The Imperium doesn't have the resources for that and Orks go for the simplest solution first and work their way up. (fists, then choppa then something bigger).

Also, the soul grinder has too many legs to be considered a MC. Its meant to share characteristics with its Defiler and Brass Scorpion counterparts.

But just for reference, which did GW introduce first. The Defiler or Soul Grinder ?

To add to the Riptide debate, I can't quote page as I don't remember where it came from. (tau codex or FE:supplement) but all battlesuits are wired into the pilots nervous system which is also part of the the suits security measures(a guy in gants ghosts gets cooked alive trying to steal a crisis suit) so that it should be assumed any structural damage to the suit is received by the pilots brain and would likely feel it just as a normal wound would.


It would also represent how such a machine is more liable to small arms fire whilst having a high armor rating, sure it will bounce most fire off, but just like power armor weak points can still be seriously damaged. If t where a vehicle it would likely be av13 or 14 front, and we all know that would be a pain to deal with.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Daemon technology outstrips and outperforms a lot of the mortal races. It just seems more primitive because that's the form it takes if it can even be called technology.

As for the Tau and Greyknight technology is only good because those factions all have minuscule numbers and don't have to worry about the logistics of out-fitting sprawling, vast armies. Meanwhile the Guard and Orks are without number so not everyone is going to have the best technology. The Imperium doesn't have the resources for that and Orks go for the simplest solution first and work their way up. (fists, then choppa then something bigger).

Also, the soul grinder has too many legs to be considered a MC. Its meant to share characteristics with its Defiler and Brass Scorpion counterparts.

But just for reference, which did GW introduce first. The Defiler or Soul Grinder ?

The Tau have a vast army that is all-around well-armed and armored. Grey Knights, sure... but the Tau just have a better all-around tech base. Pulse rifles are just as common as lasguns.Their version of carapace armor is standard-issue.

I thought the difference between the two was to do with how 'alive' they see. Things like a Riptide or a Dreadknight are more like an extension of the pilot and behave in a similar way that a large, living thing would. While Dreadnoughts are also linked to the person inside, they slow, cumbersome, machine-like in their movement and their interactions with the world around them are more limited.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Daemon technology outstrips and outperforms a lot of the mortal races. It just seems more primitive because that's the form it takes if it can even be called technology.

As for the Tau and Greyknight technology is only good because those factions all have minuscule numbers and don't have to worry about the logistics of out-fitting sprawling, vast armies. Meanwhile the Guard and Orks are without number so not everyone is going to have the best technology. The Imperium doesn't have the resources for that and Orks go for the simplest solution first and work their way up. (fists, then choppa then something bigger).

Also, the soul grinder has too many legs to be considered a MC. Its meant to share characteristics with its Defiler and Brass Scorpion counterparts.

But just for reference, which did GW introduce first. The Defiler or Soul Grinder ?

The Tau have a vast army that is all-around well-armed and armored. Grey Knights, sure... but the Tau just have a better all-around tech base. Pulse rifles are just as common as lasguns.Their version of carapace armor is standard-issue.

None of those sstatements are true.

Tau have a vast army: by today's standards sure, by 40k standards, not even remotely.
Tau have an all round better tech base: by this you mean purely low level fire warrior, they are out teched in almost every way by gk, read my previous post on the matter.
Pulse rifle are just as common as lasguns: are you serious? There are enough lasguns to outnumber the whole tau race several times over. Billions or even trillions.
Carapace armour is standarnd equipment: it is for guard too, millions upon millions of guard wear it, more I'd wager than the entire tau military combined.

 Formosa wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Daemon technology outstrips and outperforms a lot of the mortal races. It just seems more primitive because that's the form it takes if it can even be called technology.

As for the Tau and Greyknight technology is only good because those factions all have minuscule numbers and don't have to worry about the logistics of out-fitting sprawling, vast armies. Meanwhile the Guard and Orks are without number so not everyone is going to have the best technology. The Imperium doesn't have the resources for that and Orks go for the simplest solution first and work their way up. (fists, then choppa then something bigger).

Also, the soul grinder has too many legs to be considered a MC. Its meant to share characteristics with its Defiler and Brass Scorpion counterparts.

But just for reference, which did GW introduce first. The Defiler or Soul Grinder ?

The Tau have a vast army that is all-around well-armed and armored. Grey Knights, sure... but the Tau just have a better all-around tech base. Pulse rifles are just as common as lasguns.Their version of carapace armor is standard-issue.

None of those sstatements are true.

Tau have a vast army: by today's standards sure, by 40k standards, not even remotely.
Tau have an all round better tech base: by this you mean purely low level fire warrior, they are out teched in almost every way by gk, read my previous post on the matter.
Pulse rifle are just as common as lasguns: are you serious? There are enough lasguns to outnumber the whole tau race several times over. Billions or even trillions.
Carapace armour is standarnd equipment: it is for guard too, millions upon millions of guard wear it, more I'd wager than the entire tau military combined.

The Fire Caste outnumbers the Space Marines several times over- which means yes, they have a vast army. They likely outnumber the Eldar, what with their "dying race" status.

GK are better equipped... but there are only, what, a thousand of them for the countless trillions of humanity? I'm not sure comparing the elite of the elite of the elite of humanity to your average Fire Warrior is all that fair- and either way, the Riptide is a better piece of gear than a Dreadknight. I'm not sure anyone, no matter how off their rocker, is going to come here and say the Dreadknight is a superior machine to the XV-104.

Every Fire Warrior has a pulse rifle or carbine (depending on open or close-in fighting). Humanity can't even afford to give bolters to all of its ground troops, and bolters suck in every way compared to a pulse rifle.

Carapace armor isn't standard for IG- the flak jacket is. Looking at the new Codex, it seems that there's no longer an option (I swear there was in 5th, but could be wrong) to upgrade standard Guard or Vets to Carapace armor.

The armor the AM gives to its most elite warriors is standard-issue for Tau troops. Not the elite- Joe Fire Warrior has it.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Fire Caste outnumbers the Space Marines several times over- which means yes, they have a vast army. They likely outnumber the Eldar, what with their "dying race" status.

GK are better equipped... but there are only, what, a thousand of them for the countless trillions of humanity? I'm not sure comparing the elite of the elite of the elite of humanity to your average Fire Warrior is all that fair- and either way, the Riptide is a better piece of gear than a Dreadknight. I'm not sure anyone, no matter how off their rocker, is going to come here and say the Dreadknight is a superior machine to the XV-104.

Every Fire Warrior has a pulse rifle or carbine (depending on open or close-in fighting). Humanity can't even afford to give bolters to all of its ground troops, and bolters suck in every way compared to a pulse rifle.

Carapace armor isn't standard for IG- the flak jacket is. Looking at the new Codex, it seems that there's no longer an option (I swear there was in 5th, but could be wrong) to upgrade standard Guard or Vets to Carapace armor.

The armor the AM gives to its most elite warriors is standard-issue for Tau troops. Not the elite- Joe Fire Warrior has it.

If it was somehow decided by the Imperium that every single loyal space marine had to be killed by the Imperial Guard, they could literally kill them with the bodies of guardsmen. Sending so many waves of totally unarmed (and unarmored) guardsmen at them that that marines drown in blood or are overrun my naked, unarmed dudes, and subsequently torn apart.

This wouldn't much of a dent in the Imperial Guard's numbers either. There are less marines than their are worlds in the Imperium, yet each world in the Imperium gives up millions of Guardsmen in tithe.

So, basically, the Guard could wipe out the Tau Empire by shooting themselves out of torpedo tubes and nakedly bum-rushing the firing-line if they were so inclined, but the Imperium has much more pressing matters.


EDIT: So far as Joe Firewarrior vs the elite of the Imperial Guard goes, you're right. Joe the Cannon-fodder Firewarrior does have a much better weapon and better armor standard than the average guardsmen have.

It's damned unfortunate that the number of elite IG vets equipped with Carapace Armor and wielding Plasma Guns is greater than that of standard firewarriors by more than 100 fold. Ye' basic firewarrior may be equipped upto par with IG elites.. But there are more IG elites than there are basic firewarriors by a significant margin. Quantity is a quality all its own.

There are also some regiments that have carapace armor as standard, like the Elysians. It depends on how wealthy or in favor with the mechanicus the world in question is.

As for the dreadknight I am unsure of how advance it might really be given the Greyknights are said to utillize technology the wider imperium will probably never see. The area it is for sure more advanced than the riptide in is the fact that is has a teleport beacon and carries potent force-psychic weaponry of which the tau who have no concept of psychic power, do not possess.

Also they weren't conceived for the same purpose so comparing the technology cant entirely be done. The Riptide was made to be a heavier battle-suit capable of keeping up with the demands of an escalating battlefield (after the tau started discovering what super-heavy war-engines were).The Dreadknight was conceived to fight the towering greater daemons, daemon princes and daemon-engines that emerge from a warp incursion and was made to do it in hand to hand, something the tau would shy away from.

Its hard to tell about Imperial technology. Outwardly it looks (and may be in a lot of cases) inferior to some of its xenos counter-parts but this can be deceptive.

It also brings up an interesting point about warp-stuff. Warp-stuff isn't really tech, it's space-magic, but it is often used to compare technology. But then we have the necrons, also have no warp technology, but is still the most advanced race.

With the tau vs imperium tech argument, I revert to this. If you look at average tau and imperial tech, tau tech is often (but no always) more advanced, and usually stronger, cheaper, and more efficient. However when we look at maximum technology the imperium wins. The Tau species has existed for a tiny fraction of time. the empire for even less. The human race is tens of thousands of years old, and has had much longer to progress. We also have to understand, that more technological advanced does not necessarily mean more powerful. Imperial titans are more technologically advanced than a tiger shark AX-1-0 from what I understand (I'm not quite sure of the tech level on the tau side), but the tiger shark will almost always either win, or just not lose (tau appear to have taken the imperial approach with it's weapons, as big as it possibly can be).

I'd say that even if the dreadknight is more technologically advanced than the riptide, it's is less powerful than it at anything other than it's main purpose, simply because of it's bad design, if nothing else. It leaves it driver open to attack, even when wearing GK magic armour that's a horrible idea. The riptide could probably disable it in one ion acc blast, by vaporizing the occupant.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It also brings up an interesting point about warp-stuff. Warp-stuff isn't really tech, it's space-magic, but it is often used to compare technology. But then we have the necrons, also have no warp technology, but is still the most advanced race.

With the tau vs imperium tech argument, I revert to this. If you look at average tau and imperial tech, tau tech is often (but no always) more advanced, and usually stronger, cheaper, and more efficient. However when we look at maximum technology the imperium wins. The Tau species has existed for a tiny fraction of time. the empire for even less. The human race is tens of thousands of years old, and has had much longer to progress. We also have to understand, that more technological advanced does not necessarily mean more powerful. Imperial titans are more technologically advanced than a tiger shark AX-1-0 from what I understand (I'm not quite sure of the tech level on the tau side), but the tiger shark will almost always either win, or just not lose (tau appear to have taken the imperial approach with it's weapons, as big as it possibly can be).

I'd say that even if the dreadknight is more technologically advanced than the riptide, it's is less powerful than it at anything other than it's main purpose, simply because of it's bad design, if nothing else. It leaves it driver open to attack, even when wearing GK magic armour that's a horrible idea. The riptide could probably disable it in one ion acc blast, by vaporizing the occupant.

How do we know it is cheaper there is no evidence supporting this. As for efficiency the Imperiums tools are literally THE model of efficiency, runs off anything, charges from anything, mass produces an entire army worth of supplies on a daily, maybe hourly basis.

I think the Dreadknight has a personal force-field.

Also the Riptide is an expensive investment according to the Tau Codex. The materials to manufacture them are difficult to acquire and that is one of the reasons the riptide is said to be a "rare commodity" in the codex.

basicly what the Tau have thats better then the IoM is a "high logistics network" and this is more a matter of efficancy of scale. the Tau are currently small eneugh that shipping the best tech they can make and keeping their troops awesomely outfitted is a realistic option.

the IoM is so sprawling that this becomes troublesome. and thus the technology you see on their line troops TENDS to be more about allowing efficancy of production and deployment rather then anything is. is the Lasgun the best weapon the IoM can make? no. it's simply the most effective to deploy across the entire IoM. it's not even their best "quick and dirty mass production" gun.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
I think the Dreadknight has a personal force-field.

Also the Riptide is an expensive investment according to the Tau Codex. The materials to manufacture them are difficult to acquire and that is one of the reasons the riptide is said to be a "rare commodity" in the codex.

Which is on of the reasons it goes completely against the fluff up to that point. It's only purpose was to make money. I refuse to use them, or even buy them because of that. The tau even had fluff against suits that big. The pains of a tau fluff player .

EDIT: I'M SURROUNDED BY NINJAS! NINJAS, I TELL YOU!

TBH I don't think a dreadknight should be a walker or a MC. Go ahead and give it the stats of a MC (hell they did it with Mephiston in 5th, Centurians are the same concept as well) and the like, but no It shouldnt be a MC. You want AP2 CC, that's what you upgrade your CCW for. I don't play grey knights nor have played them so the rules and upgrades are unfamiliar to me. But I think it should be plain infantry with MC stats. The riptides can be the same for that matter too ( jump infantry like suits). That's my two cents.

Allow me to also add that although I believe the dreadknight should be infantry I also know that it is a little bit more unique than that, so more special rules would be associated with the model; HOW and Relentless come to mind.

Actually, I like that. It would get rid of the bonuses they get from doing just that. However, they should be given some rule that they can still be attacked with grenades in CC.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
I think the Dreadknight has a personal force-field.

Also the Riptide is an expensive investment according to the Tau Codex. The materials to manufacture them are difficult to acquire and that is one of the reasons the riptide is said to be a "rare commodity" in the codex.

Which is on of the reasons it goes completely against the fluff up to that point. It's only purpose was to make money. I refuse to use them, or even buy them because of that. The tau even had fluff against suits that big. The pains of a tau fluff player .

EDIT: I'M SURROUNDED BY NINJAS! NINJAS, I TELL YOU!

Lore wise a bigger battlesuit was the next step anyway as odd as they seem. The famed Commander Purtide even lauded the idea out loud. Battlesuit technology is nice, but the smaller variants have their limits and there are only so many platforms to mount dangerous unstable weaponry on while still maintaining mobility. From what the lore indicates, the technology that allows the riptide to be possible cannot be put on smaller battlesuits and endangers anyone standing near it should it malfunction. Also the bigger riptide has better odds of survival if it were shot by say, a Stompa's deff cannon or a baneblade cannon than a smaller variant which would be minced outright. It is also still mobile enough to escape should these threats get close enough (as few things would survive being tanked shocked by a baneblade or meeting a stompa in close combat.). Its also a nice investment because it can augment a cadre with the power of a crisis team without having to have said crisis team, thus allowing them to project their power further without risking as many lives.

But for the non-lore reason, sure big kits fetch a hefty price. And GW knows how its fan base loves their walkers and walking constructs.

Also I wonder what the lore explanation for their ground super-heavy is going to be when it comes out.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
I think the Dreadknight has a personal force-field.

Also the Riptide is an expensive investment according to the Tau Codex. The materials to manufacture them are difficult to acquire and that is one of the reasons the riptide is said to be a "rare commodity" in the codex.

Which is on of the reasons it goes completely against the fluff up to that point. It's only purpose was to make money. I refuse to use them, or even buy them because of that. The tau even had fluff against suits that big. The pains of a tau fluff player .

EDIT: I'M SURROUNDED BY NINJAS! NINJAS, I TELL YOU!

Lore wise a bigger battlesuit was the next step anyway as odd as they seem. The famed Commander Purtide even lauded the idea out loud. Battlesuit technology is nice, but the smaller variants have their limits and there are only so many platforms to mount dangerous unstable weaponry on while still maintaining mobility. From what the lore indicates, the technology that allows the riptide to be possible cannot be put on smaller battlesuits and endangers anyone standing near it should it malfunction. Also the bigger riptide has better odds of survival if it were shot by say, a Stompa's deff cannon or a baneblade cannon than a smaller variant which would be minced outright.

But for the non-lore reason, sure big kits fetch a hefty price. And GW knows how its fan base loves their walkers and walking constructs.

Also I wonder what the lore explanation for their ground super-heavy is going to be when it comes out.

As far as I know, that fluff didn't appear until this edition, but ah well. A superheavy however is going to be much harder to explain. The earth caste dismiss imperial titans as a waste of recorces (AFAIK, they have never come up agiants eldar ones). The riptide is acceptable, but barely.

I'm also really irritated that it is XV10, leaving no room for sizes inbetween. There is definitly a suit size that could be between the XV9 and XV10, although I guess that would men getting rid of their joke. As long as they don't make this the size of a reaver but only XV11.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
I think the Dreadknight has a personal force-field.

Also the Riptide is an expensive investment according to the Tau Codex. The materials to manufacture them are difficult to acquire and that is one of the reasons the riptide is said to be a "rare commodity" in the codex.

Which is on of the reasons it goes completely against the fluff up to that point. It's only purpose was to make money. I refuse to use them, or even buy them because of that. The tau even had fluff against suits that big. The pains of a tau fluff player .

EDIT: I'M SURROUNDED BY NINJAS! NINJAS, I TELL YOU!

Lore wise a bigger battlesuit was the next step anyway as odd as they seem. The famed Commander Purtide even lauded the idea out loud. Battlesuit technology is nice, but the smaller variants have their limits and there are only so many platforms to mount dangerous unstable weaponry on while still maintaining mobility. From what the lore indicates, the technology that allows the riptide to be possible cannot be put on smaller battlesuits and endangers anyone standing near it should it malfunction. Also the bigger riptide has better odds of survival if it were shot by say, a Stompa's deff cannon or a baneblade cannon than a smaller variant which would be minced outright.

But for the non-lore reason, sure big kits fetch a hefty price. And GW knows how its fan base loves their walkers and walking constructs.

Also I wonder what the lore explanation for their ground super-heavy is going to be when it comes out.

As far as I know, that fluff didn't appear until this edition, but ah well. A superheavy however is going to be much harder to explain. The earth caste dismiss imperial titans as a waste of recorces (AFAIK, they have never come up agiants eldar ones). The riptide is acceptable, but barely.

I'm also really irritated that it is XV10, leaving no room for sizes inbetween. There is definitly a suit size that could be between the XV9 and XV10, although I guess that would men getting rid of their joke. As long as they don't make this the size of a reaver but only XV11.

That is true.

But during the invasion of Viorla and the Damocles Gulf, the tau were impressed with the fire-power of their enemies monstrous war-engines. The only Tau equivalent to a Titan is the Manta, which aren't going to be risked in a direct engagement with enemy titans (where Imperial Armor 4 implies they'd be heavily damaged) and do very little good if you don't control airspace or have more pressing targets in space that require you to divert those manta's (like engaging an imperial battleship or Ork Space Hulk.)

The Tau answer of just having anti-superheavy measures (in the form of super-heavy aircraft that can fill multiple roles like the Manta, but mainly the Tigershark) seemed like a better idea than a ground-super-heavy as long as you have air-superiority.

Also I thought that anything taller than the XV-9 would be the riptide's size given the XV9 is bigger than a Broadside.

Well, they have the Tiger Shark AX 1-0 (which is a dedicated anti-titan aircraft). Yeah, the manta is powerful, but is a dropship, not a fighter.

Broadsides and crisis suits are still both xv8 (size level 8), but the riptide is just a bit too big IMO. Might just me. On the other hand, FW better not make this too big and still be an XV11.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Well, they have the Tiger Shark AX 1-0 (which is a dedicated anti-titan aircraft). Yeah, the manta is powerful, but is a dropship, not a fighter.

Broadsides and crisis suits are still both xv8 (size level 8), but the riptide is just a bit too big IMO. Might just me. On the other hand, FW better not make this too big and still be an XV11.

I honestly expect the Tau Super-heavy to look similar to this concept:



(Was in a white-dwarf magazine battlereport as a stand-in for a shadowsword.)

Either that or It will be like the Eldar titans, which have a crew of just one. It mentioned the Tau were making advances in pilot to machine interfacing with Longstrikes XV-02 so in theory they can make a battlesuit titan-sized (Knight size is probably the limit here) that functions like a normal battlesuit (though they mention early proto-types for the riptide were too big and too cumbersome so this would conflict with the tau codex).

I guess the question would be if its purpose would be to counter other super-heavy war-engines (like the tigershark or shadowsword were made to) or project power like other titans and super-heavy vehicals do.

the Tau might frown on super heavies as a waste of resources, but tatical realities might necessitate the development of super heavies all the same. if your ONLY anti-super heavy tools are fliers, that becomes problematic once you engage the enemy on a world where the conditions make fliers a poor prospect. I tend to agree the best idea for a tau super heavy is proably a tank. but realisticly I expect a giant battlesuit.

Keep in mind that super heavies come in all sizes. A Tau SH could easily just be a 2" longer Hammerhead with a bigger gun and 6 hull points.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Like the Riptide, it IS the Tau super heavy, it has the same concept (assuming it was all real of course) behind it.

The only super-heavy tau doctrine will allow is one that flys (atleast till next year when forgeworld finally un-veils what the Tau Super Heavy ground unit they're releasing is going to be).

Also the riptide was conceived as a heavier weapons platform that could stand up to the increasingly hostile warzones the Firecaste was finding. The concept wasn't to build a super-heavy ground unit, which the tau frowned upon as being in-efficient (at the time they still thought like that).

That does raise the question of can a super-heavy power-armor can be built and "worn" in the traditional sense.

pretty much all titans are controlled by a Mind link interface, so I imagine that becomes almost a requirement with super heavy walkers beyond a certin point

Except Ork and perhaps chaos ones. Actually does daemonic possession count as mind link ? Somethings mind is technically running the machine but im not sure if its really comparable to how the imperium and eldar interface with their titans.

Not true. Chaos uses demonic possession or mind link (dreadnoughts). Orks use mind links. It is specified in the fluff repeatedly, hence the reason pain boyz and big meks are required in their creation and the reason that the grots and orks can't ever leave once deposited inside.

As far as a continuation of the endless "who is better" discussion, Imperial stormtroopers, of whom there are likely as many as fire warriors, are equipped wit hitems at least parallel to those FIre Warriors. The Imperium has a different doctrine, not a lack of ability.

Similarly, there is nothing objectively better about MC or vehicles. GW doesn't see one as better than the other. The decision seems based on the preexisting rules and the weight of years. Dreadnoughts have been vehicles, so they remain vehicles. Newer editions have a tendency to be represented more variably. Dread Knights as walkers lack a real role due to the existence of dreadnoughts in the same list and Ward flipped them to MC. Applying a MC rule makes a model more survivable against anti-vehicle threats but only due to crunch. It isn't a question of fluff.

 PhillyT wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Like the Riptide, it IS the Tau super heavy, it has the same concept (assuming it was all real of course) behind it.

The only super-heavy tau doctrine will allow is one that flys (atleast till next year when forgeworld finally un-veils what the Tau Super Heavy ground unit they're releasing is going to be).

Also the riptide was conceived as a heavier weapons platform that could stand up to the increasingly hostile warzones the Firecaste was finding. The concept wasn't to build a super-heavy ground unit, which the tau frowned upon as being in-efficient (at the time they still thought like that).

That does raise the question of can a super-heavy power-armor can be built and "worn" in the traditional sense.

pretty much all titans are controlled by a Mind link interface, so I imagine that becomes almost a requirement with super heavy walkers beyond a certin point

Except Ork and perhaps chaos ones. Actually does daemonic possession count as mind link ? Somethings mind is technically running the machine but im not sure if its really comparable to how the imperium and eldar interface with their titans.

Not true. Chaos uses demonic possession or mind link (dreadnoughts). Orks use mind links. It is specified in the fluff repeatedly, hence the reason pain boyz and big meks are required in their creation and the reason that the grots and orks can't ever leave once deposited inside.

As far as a continuation of the endless "who is better" discussion, Imperial stormtroopers, of whom there are likely as many as fire warriors, are equipped wit hitems at least parallel to those FIre Warriors. The Imperium has a different doctrine, not a lack of ability.

Similarly, there is nothing objectively better about MC or vehicles. GW doesn't see one as better than the other. The decision seems based on the preexisting rules and the weight of years. Dreadnoughts have been vehicles, so they remain vehicles. Newer editions have a tendency to be represented more variably. Dread Knights as walkers lack a real role due to the existence of dreadnoughts in the same list and Ward flipped them to MC. Applying a MC rule makes a model more survivable against anti-vehicle threats but only due to crunch. It isn't a question of fluff.

Its also been specified repeatedly in the lore that ork dreadnoughts can be controlled by buttons and levers if the mek in charge wants something different than the usual method of wiring the ork or grot in. In-fact in the Kastorel-Novem book the entry for dreads and kans mentions:

"There are of course Deff Dreads built not using the traditional 'surgikal method" and instead mastered by a convoluted series of gears, armatures and large buttons inside the kontrol kan. While far more prone to going wrong, there are advantages for a Mekboy wishing to retain the use of their legs and not see the rest of their lives through a small vision grill!"

Correct, but in this case, the point remains that orks have and use mind linking technology.

They include that to give variety if the player choses to go that route. But it is important for those who think otherwise to understand Orks have mindlinking technology when they want to use it.

And on the issue of dreads, is there anything suggesting the Dreadknight has anything in common with normal dreadnought construction given it has "dread" in the name or is the "dread" part just for intimidation ?

Some similar components, but they are built differently.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Daemon technology outstrips and outperforms a lot of the mortal races. It just seems more primitive because that's the form it takes if it can even be called technology.

As for the Tau and Greyknight technology is only good because those factions all have minuscule numbers and don't have to worry about the logistics of out-fitting sprawling, vast armies. Meanwhile the Guard and Orks are without number so not everyone is going to have the best technology. The Imperium doesn't have the resources for that and Orks go for the simplest solution first and work their way up. (fists, then choppa then something bigger).

Also, the soul grinder has too many legs to be considered a MC. Its meant to share characteristics with its Defiler and Brass Scorpion counterparts.

But just for reference, which did GW introduce first. The Defiler or Soul Grinder ?

The Tau have a vast army that is all-around well-armed and armored. Grey Knights, sure... but the Tau just have a better all-around tech base. Pulse rifles are just as common as lasguns.Their version of carapace armor is standard-issue.

None of those sstatements are true.

Tau have a vast army: by today's standards sure, by 40k standards, not even remotely.
Tau have an all round better tech base: by this you mean purely low level fire warrior, they are out teched in almost every way by gk, read my previous post on the matter.
Pulse rifle are just as common as lasguns: are you serious? There are enough lasguns to outnumber the whole tau race several times over. Billions or even trillions.
Carapace armour is standarnd equipment: it is for guard too, millions upon millions of guard wear it, more I'd wager than the entire tau military combined.

The Fire Caste outnumbers the Space Marines several times over- which means yes, they have a vast army. They likely outnumber the Eldar, what with their "dying race" status.

GK are better equipped... but there are only, what, a thousand of them for the countless trillions of humanity? I'm not sure comparing the elite of the elite of the elite of humanity to your average Fire Warrior is all that fair- and either way, the Riptide is a better piece of gear than a Dreadknight. I'm not sure anyone, no matter how off their rocker, is going to come here and say the Dreadknight is a superior machine to the XV-104.

Every Fire Warrior has a pulse rifle or carbine (depending on open or close-in fighting). Humanity can't even afford to give bolters to all of its ground troops, and bolters suck in every way compared to a pulse rifle.

Carapace armor isn't standard for IG- the flak jacket is. Looking at the new Codex, it seems that there's no longer an option (I swear there was in 5th, but could be wrong) to upgrade standard Guard or Vets to Carapace armor.

The armor the AM gives to its most elite warriors is standard-issue for Tau troops. Not the elite- Joe Fire Warrior has it.

Ok I will address each point.

"fire caste outnumber the space marines" So a few million? hundred million? lets call it a billion to be generous, that makes them a tiny army in 40k, barely even an army in 40k, but were talking fluff not game mechanics here, and Sadly Eldar have been retconned to no longer be millions, at iyandan "billions" died, hate that part of that book but that's what it is, so there are billions of elder about now... stupid it is.

"greyknights are better equipped" Yes, I was only continuing your comparison, if that was not intended fair enough.
As to the tide and the knight, yes the knight is the bearer of a hell of a lot more advanced equipement, ammo that can suck out your soul, psycho crytaline weapons that do the same, massively advanced and smaller armour tech that the tau have not made yet outside of a single upgrade and giant riptides, so yeah your right, no one would compare the 2 and be taken seriously.


"Every Fire Warrior has a pulse rifle" Had you read my previous posts on the subject you would not have stated this, the lasgun is a lot more advanced than the mini plasma rifle, fireing light at high enough intensity through an atmosphere and have it rugged enough to take a massive beating and recharge from most any power source including fire, and be able to mass produce it are simply amazing.
to use your logic an m1 is more advanced than an m4, as it has longer range and is more powerful.

Carapace armour is standard issue for
Kasrkin
storm troopers
arbites
guard regiments (remember fluff not TT)
Inq storm troopers
Scions
Command units
combine all these from all over the imperium and you have a higher pop that the tau have people

I think it mentions that the tau plasma rifle has longer range and is more powerful than the lasgun. The Lasgun, however, is more durable and fires a lot faster and is far easier to use and maintain as its power cells can even be charged in the sun. However there might be some patterns of lasgun that compete with the pulse rifle in range and power since no two function exactly the same given they can come from different forgeworlds. The hotshot lasgun that stormtroopers and veterans prefer seems like it could match a pulse rifle.

Also how exactly is a Dreadknight operated ?

No Lasguns can match the Pulse Rifle in range and hitting power, although some, such as the Hotshot, do have greater penetrating power (AP3)

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Well, they have the Tiger Shark AX 1-0 (which is a dedicated anti-titan aircraft). Yeah, the manta is powerful, but is a dropship, not a fighter.

Broadsides and crisis suits are still both xv8 (size level 8), but the riptide is just a bit too big IMO. Might just me. On the other hand, FW better not make this too big and still be an XV11.

I honestly expect the Tau Super-heavy to look similar to this concept:



(Was in a white-dwarf magazine battlereport as a stand-in for a shadowsword.)

Either that or It will be like the Eldar titans, which have a crew of just one. It mentioned the Tau were making advances in pilot to machine interfacing with Longstrikes XV-02 so in theory they can make a battlesuit titan-sized (Knight size is probably the limit here) that functions like a normal battlesuit (though they mention early proto-types for the riptide were too big and too cumbersome so this would conflict with the tau codex).

I guess the question would be if its purpose would be to counter other super-heavy war-engines (like the tigershark or shadowsword) or project power like other titans and super-heavy vehicals do.

That pic made me laugh a bit..I made a stab at making a Tau super heavy a few years ago...


Seems great minds think alike

anyway yes I am tired of superheavy walkers..we need some skimmers and other craft..just to break up the pattern.

Yours is much cooler

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Well, they have the Tiger Shark AX 1-0 (which is a dedicated anti-titan aircraft). Yeah, the manta is powerful, but is a dropship, not a fighter.

Broadsides and crisis suits are still both xv8 (size level 8), but the riptide is just a bit too big IMO. Might just me. On the other hand, FW better not make this too big and still be an XV11.

I honestly expect the Tau Super-heavy to look similar to this concept:



(Was in a white-dwarf magazine battlereport as a stand-in for a shadowsword.)

Either that or It will be like the Eldar titans, which have a crew of just one. It mentioned the Tau were making advances in pilot to machine interfacing with Longstrikes XV-02 so in theory they can make a battlesuit titan-sized (Knight size is probably the limit here) that functions like a normal battlesuit (though they mention early proto-types for the riptide were too big and too cumbersome so this would conflict with the tau codex).

I guess the question would be if its purpose would be to counter other super-heavy war-engines (like the tigershark or shadowsword) or project power like other titans and super-heavy vehicals do.

That pic made me laugh a bit..I made a stab at making a Tau super heavy a few years ago...


Seems great minds think alike

anyway yes I am tired of superheavy walkers..we need some skimmers and other craft..just to break up the pattern.

If it turns out it is a super-heavy skimmer or tank in the works, congratulations on already having one built ahead of time.

Since the Tau believe in innovation, a super-heavy skimmer would be right up their alley. It would probably be a lot safer as well considering their current biggest battlesuit (the riptide) had early prototypes that endangered the planet they stood on according to the lore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IHateNids wrote:
No Lasguns can match the Pulse Rifle in range and hitting power, although some, such as the Hotshot, do have greater penetrating power (AP3)

They can but for the standard lasgun the Tau Codex mentions:

"The arsenal available to the Fire Warriors is formidable, with individuals carrying either a pulse rifle or a pulse carbine. With this advanced armament, Fire Warriors lay down a withering fusillade upon their foes. Their range and hitting power outclasses the standard weapons of every race the Tau have yet encountered."

 IHateNids wrote:
No Lasguns can match the Pulse Rifle in range and hitting power, although some, such as the Hotshot, do have greater penetrating power (AP3)

Completely false. Pulse weapons are stronger than even bolters, and shoot farther. This has been demonstrated multiple times. The lasgun only has a few things better, it's cheaper, very easy to charge and has more shots per energy cell (fluffwise, the pulse rifle and carbine average 50 per pack, and the lasgun seems to usually bee someone from 60-80).


EDIT: (this is assuming you are saying "no, lasguns can" instead of 'no lasguns can"). Only thought of that after I wrote this.

Str3 ap- range 30" rapid fire
or
str3 ap - range 36 heavy 2
or
str6 ap - range 24" heavy 1

Lasguns can and do out range and damage pulse rifles, the tech just isn't given to the guard as a whole.

No offence meant, but I don't really like to use game rules as fluff examples.

Where are you getting those stats from? It looks like you're just making them up.

How about these 'special' pulse rifles?

Str D ap 1 range 72" assault 20

Half of the evidence Tau players use to justify how great tau are is based off crunch though.

It's also a bit peaches vs James and the giant peach. You can't compare heavy weapons to basic. hand held weaponry. In that case we should probably mention the riptides big burst cannon, the pulse submunition rifle, the pulse submunition cannon, and the longshot pulse rifle.


We also have to consider how pulse rifles work. A pulse rifle is the combination of a small plamsa gun and a coil gun. This mean that tau pulse weapons generly have very high effective ranges.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PhillyT wrote:
Half of the evidence Tau players use to justify how great tau are is based off crunch though.

Not mine.

SGTPozy wrote:
Where are you getting those stats from? It looks like you're just making them up.

How about these 'special' pulse rifles?

Str D ap 1 range 72" assault 20

If your not aware of all the facts please do not make up things or be rude, they are solar pattern lasguns, feel free to Google them.

They are issued to just the solar auxilia, so just the forces of segmentum solar, an area of space magnitudes larger than the tau empire and having a massively larger military

Not sure if this has any bearing but in the video games it seems the Lasgun also fires a lot faster than a pulse rifle. This seems to be the case in Fire Warrior and Dawn of War games so is there any basis for this in the lore or is it just interpretative creativity from the developers ?

My mistake its called a lasrifle and colimator

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Not sure if this has any bearing but in the video games it seems the Lasgun also fires a lot faster than a pulse rifle. This seems to be a constant in Fire Warrior and Dawn of War games so is there any basis for this in the lore or is it just interpretative creativity from the developers ?

Well in general that's true by choice of the users, as the pulse rifle has a fully automatic mode, but precise shots are preferred. So we can;t quite be sure. And we don't have enough info on the pulse carbine to really compare them, so there isn't really any way to know.

 Formosa wrote:
My mistake its called a lasrifle and colimator

So not a lasgun then? please be aware of all of the facts before being rude and offensive.

Yes it's a lasgun, rifles are guns, colimnator is just the shot mode


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's like saying a pulse rifle isn't a gun and because it has rapid fire isn't a pulse weapon...

Anyway, merry Christmas to you

Interestingly enough, they always refer to the standard lasrifle as a "lasgun". I thought for a while the lasgun, lasrifle and laspistol were 3 different weapons

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Not sure if this has any bearing but in the video games it seems the Lasgun also fires a lot faster than a pulse rifle. This seems to be the case in Fire Warrior and Dawn of War games so is there any basis for this in the lore or is it just interpretative creativity from the developers ?

Here's the thing tho, in Imperial Infantrymen's Uplifting Primer, most lasguns (lasrifles) have alternative firing modes. I believe it's single-shot, burst fire, and auto, so basically ak47 but lasers! In Primer however, it's stated that it's preferable for almost all imperial guardsmen to using single-shot mode to conserve ammunition, since conventional power packs for the lasrifles can fire 60 shots per pack under normal setting, and I believe the guardsmen only got 2 or 3 power packs each. So really we don't know how accurate, how powerful, or even "shootier" a Tau pulse rifle is compared to a lasgun.

 lcmiracle wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Not sure if this has any bearing but in the video games it seems the Lasgun also fires a lot faster than a pulse rifle. This seems to be the case in Fire Warrior and Dawn of War games so is there any basis for this in the lore or is it just interpretative creativity from the developers ?

Here's the thing tho, in Imperial Infantrymen's Uplifting Primer, most lasguns (lasrifles) have alternative firing modes. I believe it's single-shot, burst fire, and auto, so basically ak47 but lasers! In Primer however, it's stated that it's preferable for almost all imperial guardsmen to using single-shot mode to conserve ammunition, since conventional power packs for the lasrifles can fire 60 shots per pack under normal setting, and I believe the guardsmen only got 2 or 3 power packs each. So really we don't know how accurate, how powerful, or even "shootier" a Tau pulse rifle is compared to a lasgun.

That is true except when it comes to power. The tau codex claims the Fire Warriors pulse rifle and pulse carbine outclass the standard firearms of every race they've encountered so far in range and power (though I have my doubts when it comes to Necrons and the Eldar).

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Interestingly enough, they always refer to the standard lasrifle as a "lasgun". I thought for a while the lasgun, lasrifle and laspistol were 3 different weapons

Now i got to model a lasshoota on a few of my shootaboyz.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Not sure if this has any bearing but in the video games it seems the Lasgun also fires a lot faster than a pulse rifle. This seems to be the case in Fire Warrior and Dawn of War games so is there any basis for this in the lore or is it just interpretative creativity from the developers ?

Here's the thing tho, in Imperial Infantrymen's Uplifting Primer, most lasguns (lasrifles) have alternative firing modes. I believe it's single-shot, burst fire, and auto, so basically ak47 but lasers! In Primer however, it's stated that it's preferable for almost all imperial guardsmen to using single-shot mode to conserve ammunition, since conventional power packs for the lasrifles can fire 60 shots per pack under normal setting, and I believe the guardsmen only got 2 or 3 power packs each. So really we don't know how accurate, how powerful, or even "shootier" a Tau pulse rifle is compared to a lasgun.

That is true except when it comes to power. The tau codex claims the Fire Warriors pulse rifle and pulse carbine outclass the standard firearms of every race they've encountered so far in range and power (though I have my doubts when it comes to Necrons and the Eldar).

Well Tau haven't encountered any other factions beyond the Imperium and Orks right? Thats just Shootas, Bolters, Lasguns, Hotshot Lasguns, out of all those yea it is better.

 Quickjager wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Not sure if this has any bearing but in the video games it seems the Lasgun also fires a lot faster than a pulse rifle. This seems to be the case in Fire Warrior and Dawn of War games so is there any basis for this in the lore or is it just interpretative creativity from the developers ?

Here's the thing tho, in Imperial Infantrymen's Uplifting Primer, most lasguns (lasrifles) have alternative firing modes. I believe it's single-shot, burst fire, and auto, so basically ak47 but lasers! In Primer however, it's stated that it's preferable for almost all imperial guardsmen to using single-shot mode to conserve ammunition, since conventional power packs for the lasrifles can fire 60 shots per pack under normal setting, and I believe the guardsmen only got 2 or 3 power packs each. So really we don't know how accurate, how powerful, or even "shootier" a Tau pulse rifle is compared to a lasgun.

That is true except when it comes to power. The tau codex claims the Fire Warriors pulse rifle and pulse carbine outclass the standard firearms of every race they've encountered so far in range and power (though I have my doubts when it comes to Necrons and the Eldar).

Well Tau haven't encountered any other factions beyond the Imperium and Orks right? Thats just Shootas, Bolters, Lasguns, Hotshot Lasguns, out of all those yea it is better.

They have encountered the Necrons, Eldar, Dark Eldar and Tyranids several times as well. However to be fair the Tau may not be aware of how powerful these foes weapons are as they may not have walked away from several of these encounters or no witnesses were left (in the case of Necron and Dark Eldar attacks this is common).

And some smaller races like the demiurg and nicassar, kroot too.

As for greater fire power, I'd disagree from a fluff standpoint, there smallarms outrange and out power the small arms of some of the races but I'm terms of firepower I'd say elder and neurons have that title.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Necrons even

 Formosa wrote:
Yes it's a lasgun, rifles are guns, colimnator is just the shot mode


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's like saying a pulse rifle isn't a gun and because it has rapid fire isn't a pulse weapon...

Anyway, merry Christmas to you

I never said that it wasn't a gun, I saidvit wasn't a lasgun just like a pulse carbine isn't a pulse rifle.

What you basically said was that a plasma gun (IoM) is the same as a plasma rile (Tau) which is not true.

its a lasrifle, the shot mode is called colimnator, this gives it its different fire modes, but it is still a lasgun (lasergun), a pulse rifles and pulse carbines are both pulseguns, see that was easier, now they have variations but are built around the same weapon.

 Formosa wrote:
And some smaller races like the demiurg and nicassar, kroot too.

As for greater fire power, I'd disagree from a fluff standpoint, there smallarms outrange and out power the small arms of some of the races but I'm terms of firepower I'd say elder and neurons have that title.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Necrons even

Necrons definitely, but shuriken weapons are about equal to bolters judging from the fluff. ASAIK, tau haven't really had a chance to examine necron tech as they have only encountered them once or twice. Although I still find it entertaining that the first contact they allied with them.

 Formosa wrote:
its a lasrifle, the shot mode is called colimnator, this gives it its different fire modes, but it is still a lasgun (lasergun), a pulse rifles and pulse carbines are both pulseguns, see that was easier, now they have variations but are built around the same weapon.

Lascannons are also laserguns, so are they also lasguns then? They just have a stronger shot, but they're still the same <sarcasm>

Of course! What is it but a lasgun for a Space Marine!

If we're getting picky then none of them are rifles as neither pulse rifles or lasrifles have rifleing as they are energy weapons, and the boltgun is a cannon since it has explosive rounds.

Both rl and in universe people use the terms loosely, for example modern handguns are rifles too since they have rifling.

But to fluff!
The lasrifle is a lasgun, the lascannon is a lasweapon, but we're talking specifically small arms, the colimnator is a shot mode similar to rapid fire etc
seems to me that you are annoyed that you've been shown that your assertion that tau small arms are better than lasguns in tech based only on range and str, utterly ignoring my own posts and others, I try to be polite as much as possible but in this case I must say, your wrong.

If you would like a polite conversation on the subject I'm happy to do so, but your bad attempts to pick holes is very churlish and you make no effort to back up your statements

What are you guyz talking about - shootas are superior. They're so advanced noone knows how they work. Even orkses themselves. And mind you, shootas are probably the most common handguns in the universe.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The same reason Wraithknights and Riptides are: To sell more Citadel plastic kits with superior rules. The best thing that can ever happen to a big unit is to be rated as a MC.

Toughfness 8 Deffdread, yes please

 Mojo1jojo wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The same reason Wraithknights and Riptides are: To sell more Citadel plastic kits with superior rules. The best thing that can ever happen to a big unit is to be rated as a MC.

Toughfness 8 Deffdread, yes please

Yes but if it was a MC it might not have Grot Riggers. The dread needs the riggers. Having the right grot at the right (or wrong depending on outlook) time can make all the difference.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Mojo1jojo wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The same reason Wraithknights and Riptides are: To sell more Citadel plastic kits with superior rules. The best thing that can ever happen to a big unit is to be rated as a MC.

Toughfness 8 Deffdread, yes please

Yes but if it was a MC it might not have Grot Riggers. The dread needs the riggers. Having the right grot at the right (or wrong depending on outlook) time can make all the difference.

Give me Toughness 8 with 4 wounds and a 3+ 5++ ill give up the grot riggers in an instant

But on the note of repairs, are there any MC that can be fixed while in combat or on the board like a Paindoc healing a squiggoth, techmarine repairing a dreadknight, or a bonesinger repairing a wraithknight ? Or do MCs just stay damaged ?

a fair few have access to IWND in some form or another

C'tan Shards, Canoptek Spyders & Dreadknights spring to mind as the only ones that dont

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It also brings up an interesting point about warp-stuff. Warp-stuff isn't really tech, it's space-magic, but it is often used to compare technology. But then we have the necrons, also have no warp technology, but is still the most advanced race.

Any technology sufficiently advanced to defy the current scientific understanding and technology level would be considered magic. But if they had a knowledge about how it works empirically then it would just be another branch of science.

A psychic hood uses the warp to channel power to its wielder, that's not mAgic

What strength do you need to insta-kill most MCs anyway ? Is it D-Strength or can things outside of Lords of Wars (your Super-Heavy and Gargantuan-Creature) accomplish the task ?

The only thing I can think of is the Necron Monolith's inter-dimensional gateway (and that's not really killing the target), the tau's paradox squad bombing and the Imperium's Vortex missles.

Almost nothing can insta-kill a MC, not even D-weapons. At best, there's a few things that can, through application of certain effects, remove it as a casualty immediately, but such things are few and far between.

 GKTiberius wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It also brings up an interesting point about warp-stuff. Warp-stuff isn't really tech, it's space-magic, but it is often used to compare technology. But then we have the necrons, also have no warp technology, but is still the most advanced race.

Any technology sufficiently advanced to defy the current scientific understanding and technology level would be considered magic. But if they had a knowledge about how it works empirically then it would just be another branch of science.

Quoting that does not make it not space-magic. I mean, that's literaly what it's supposed to be, space magic. There is sicency bits surrounding it, but it's still space magic.

Indeed. Warp-tech is technomancy, the fusion of magic and technology. The Warp is not "science you don't understand", the Warp cannot be understood. It defies such mortal constraints, or requirements. It does, in fact, take great pleasure in driving those who attempt to categorize the Warp in such ways mad.

Well put.

 Psienesis wrote:
Indeed. Warp-tech is technomancy, the fusion of magic and technology. The Warp is not "science you don't understand", the Warp cannot be understood. It defies such mortal constraints, or requirements. It does, in fact, take great pleasure in driving those who attempt to categorize the Warp in such ways mad.

Sorry psi you either wrong or not specific enough, psychic powers are space magic, something the draws power and has an effect but as you said cannot be explained, except it can, if we were willing or able to dig deep enough into the universe and the writers had expanded enough I'd be willing to bet that psykers have additional organs, or another part if the brain is active, again if the writers wanted too they could have scientists study how psykers draw from the warp etc.

The WARP is unknowable, things that use the warp as a power source are not,
warp drives
force weapons
Psychic hoods
The list goes on, it's all quantifiable science (I.e can make a prediction about a+b and get a result that can be replicated),
so when I say your either wrong or not specific, I mean if your referring to all warp based tech as magic machines then your wrong, if your referring to certain warp based tech then you need to be more specific.

The warp HAS to be quantifiable in someway, case in point the Cadian Pylons the Necrons built that repel the warp.

 Psienesis wrote:
Almost nothing can insta-kill a MC, not even D-weapons. At best, there's a few things that can, through application of certain effects, remove it as a casualty immediately, but such things are few and far between.

My nurgle princes LOVE MC's. AP2 Instant death with poison 4+ is an awesome MC killer.

 Robisagg wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Almost nothing can insta-kill a MC, not even D-weapons. At best, there's a few things that can, through application of certain effects, remove it as a casualty immediately, but such things are few and far between.

My nurgle princes LOVE MC's. AP2 Instant death with poison 4+ is an awesome MC killer.

GKs love MCs too; especially their Dreadknights (Str 10 insta-death... That's way too powerful!)


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 Formosa wrote:
If we're getting picky then none of them are rifles as neither pulse rifles or lasrifles have rifleing as they are energy weapons, and the boltgun is a cannon since it has explosive rounds.

Both rl and in universe people use the terms loosely, for example modern handguns are rifles too since they have rifling.

But to fluff!
The lasrifle is a lasgun, the lascannon is a lasweapon, but we're talking specifically small arms, the colimnator is a shot mode similar to rapid fire etc
seems to me that you are annoyed that you've been shown that your assertion that tau small arms are better than lasguns in tech based only on range and str, utterly ignoring my own posts and others, I try to be polite as much as possible but in this case I must say, your wrong.

If you would like a polite conversation on the subject I'm happy to do so, but your bad attempts to pick holes is very churlish and you make no effort to back up your statements

I'm sorry for being 'churlish' (whatever that is ). I don't really care if this continues as this discussion derailed the thread as how long ago was it that the Dreadknight was actually mentioned?
Tau tech is better but it isn't as easy to mass produce as they cannot exploit economies of scale to the same degree as the filthy IoM guys.

SGTPozy wrote:

 Robisagg wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Almost nothing can insta-kill a MC, not even D-weapons. At best, there's a few things that can, through application of certain effects, remove it as a casualty immediately, but such things are few and far between.

My nurgle princes LOVE MC's. AP2 Instant death with poison 4+ is an awesome MC killer.

GKs love MCs too; especially their Dreadknights (Str 10 insta-death... That's way too powerful!)

Of course they would only be a threat to other MC that they were meant to kill (you don't see a good fight till you see a Daemon and GK MC duke it out!). Also please be polite, everyone else has been so.

As for economies of scale... if we follow this line of thinking we come to the same conclusion that IoM is more technologically advanced as their plasma guns are better AND there are more of plasma guns than pulse rifles/carbines. You... essentially defeated your own argument.

 IHateNids wrote:
a fair few have access to IWND in some form or another

C'tan Shards, Canoptek Spyders & Dreadknights spring to mind as the only ones that dont

What MCs have IWND? I cannot think of a single one :L


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tau have perfected plasma technology; it is used by almost all of their guns. The IoM has a long way to go as theirs are way too unstable.



Stronger=/= better. A lascannon is stronger than an autocannon but an autocannon can do almost everything better.

What you said about stronger = better... So you agree that Tau guns are better since they are stronger? You defeated your own argument...

Finally, plasma guns are not run-of-the-mill guns and although there *may* be more plasma guns that pulse guns; plasma guns are still maximum 1 per tactical squad, whilst pulse weapons are standard weaponry.

SGTPozy wrote:

 Robisagg wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Almost nothing can insta-kill a MC, not even D-weapons. At best, there's a few things that can, through application of certain effects, remove it as a casualty immediately, but such things are few and far between.

My nurgle princes LOVE MC's. AP2 Instant death with poison 4+ is an awesome MC killer.

GKs love MCs too; especially their Dreadknights (Str 10 insta-death... That's way too powerful!)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
If we're getting picky then none of them are rifles as neither pulse rifles or lasrifles have rifleing as they are energy weapons, and the boltgun is a cannon since it has explosive rounds.

Both rl and in universe people use the terms loosely, for example modern handguns are rifles too since they have rifling.

But to fluff!
The lasrifle is a lasgun, the lascannon is a lasweapon, but we're talking specifically small arms, the colimnator is a shot mode similar to rapid fire etc
seems to me that you are annoyed that you've been shown that your assertion that tau small arms are better than lasguns in tech based only on range and str, utterly ignoring my own posts and others, I try to be polite as much as possible but in this case I must say, your wrong.

If you would like a polite conversation on the subject I'm happy to do so, but your bad attempts to pick holes is very churlish and you make no effort to back up your statements

I'm sorry for being 'churlish' (whatever that is ). I don't really care if this continues as this discussion derailed the thread as how long ago was it that the Dreadknight was actually mentioned?
Tau tech is better but it isn't as easy to mass produce as they cannot exploit economies of scale to the same degree as the filthy IoM guys.

Back that statement up with some actual evidence, start a thread and lets see what proof you have of your statements, ill enjoy the debate

 Formosa wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Robisagg wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Almost nothing can insta-kill a MC, not even D-weapons. At best, there's a few things that can, through application of certain effects, remove it as a casualty immediately, but such things are few and far between.

My nurgle princes LOVE MC's. AP2 Instant death with poison 4+ is an awesome MC killer.

GKs love MCs too; especially their Dreadknights (Str 10 insta-death... That's way too powerful!)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
If we're getting picky then none of them are rifles as neither pulse rifles or lasrifles have rifleing as they are energy weapons, and the boltgun is a cannon since it has explosive rounds.

Both rl and in universe people use the terms loosely, for example modern handguns are rifles too since they have rifling.

But to fluff!
The lasrifle is a lasgun, the lascannon is a lasweapon, but we're talking specifically small arms, the colimnator is a shot mode similar to rapid fire etc
seems to me that you are annoyed that you've been shown that your assertion that tau small arms are better than lasguns in tech based only on range and str, utterly ignoring my own posts and others, I try to be polite as much as possible but in this case I must say, your wrong.

If you would like a polite conversation on the subject I'm happy to do so, but your bad attempts to pick holes is very churlish and you make no effort to back up your statements

I'm sorry for being 'churlish' (whatever that is ). I don't really care if this continues as this discussion derailed the thread as how long ago was it that the Dreadknight was actually mentioned?
Tau tech is better but it isn't as easy to mass produce as they cannot exploit economies of scale to the same degree as the filthy IoM guys.

Back that statement up with some actual evidence, start a thread and lets see what proof you have of your statements, ill enjoy the debate

Keep in mind the Tau just seem more advanced compared to the factions they face most often (Astra Militarum and Astartes).

There are branches of the Adeptus Mechanicus and Inquisition that have technology that could probably rival what the Tau have created thus far. You wont see the more advanced technology of the Imperium at work because its too valuable to be wasted and is only brought out when the situation warrants it.

The Tau are also lacking in some areas. Most notably warp related technology.

SGTPozy wrote:


What MCs have IWND? I cannot think of a single one :L

.

Talos and Cronos Pain Engines of Dark Eldar get FnP base and.. turn 3 or 4 get IWND if taken in the Covens supplement.

I like that no one ever complaines about DE monstrous creatures

Nobody probably ever thinks of them

The Dreadknight and a lot of the mechanical or construct MCs seem to be weaker in someways than proper walkers.

Most notably they:

- don't have as many chances to be repaired if they get damaged.
- could possibly destroy themselves (Riptide or the Dreadknight warp-periling).
- have other odd rules attached to them (wraithknight only being able to fire two sets of weapons at once, and the riptide taking command checks for loosing drones).
- have fewer hull-points that similarly sized machines.
- aren't as heavily armed as some of their counter-parts (Orkanauts and Imperial Knights).

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Robisagg wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Almost nothing can insta-kill a MC, not even D-weapons. At best, there's a few things that can, through application of certain effects, remove it as a casualty immediately, but such things are few and far between.

My nurgle princes LOVE MC's. AP2 Instant death with poison 4+ is an awesome MC killer.

GKs love MCs too; especially their Dreadknights (Str 10 insta-death... That's way too powerful!)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
If we're getting picky then none of them are rifles as neither pulse rifles or lasrifles have rifleing as they are energy weapons, and the boltgun is a cannon since it has explosive rounds.

Both rl and in universe people use the terms loosely, for example modern handguns are rifles too since they have rifling.

But to fluff!
The lasrifle is a lasgun, the lascannon is a lasweapon, but we're talking specifically small arms, the colimnator is a shot mode similar to rapid fire etc
seems to me that you are annoyed that you've been shown that your assertion that tau small arms are better than lasguns in tech based only on range and str, utterly ignoring my own posts and others, I try to be polite as much as possible but in this case I must say, your wrong.

If you would like a polite conversation on the subject I'm happy to do so, but your bad attempts to pick holes is very churlish and you make no effort to back up your statements

I'm sorry for being 'churlish' (whatever that is ). I don't really care if this continues as this discussion derailed the thread as how long ago was it that the Dreadknight was actually mentioned?
Tau tech is better but it isn't as easy to mass produce as they cannot exploit economies of scale to the same degree as the filthy IoM guys.

Back that statement up with some actual evidence, start a thread and lets see what proof you have of your statements, ill enjoy the debate

Keep in mind the Tau just seem more advanced compared to the factions they face most often (Astra Militarum and Astartes).

There are branches of the Adeptus Mechanicus and Inquisition that have technology that could probably rival what the Tau have created thus far. You wont see the more advanced technology of the Imperium at work because its too valuable to be wasted and is only brought out when the situation warrants it.

The Tau are also lacking in some areas. Most notably warp related technology.

The Tau haven't been around long enough to cover all areas but the areas that they do cover they generally do a better job of. E.g. standard issue guns and armour (obviously not as good as power armour), better use of skimmers (which are superior to land-based vehicles), better use of air support etc.

The Adeptus Mechanics isn't represented well though is it? Same as Tau having psychic allies yet they aren't represented.
The only superior Inquisition tech comes from other xenos... So that's cheating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NauticalKendall wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:


What MCs have IWND? I cannot think of a single one :L

.

Talos and Cronos Pain Engines of Dark Eldar get FnP base and.. turn 3 or 4 get IWND if taken in the Covens supplement.

I like that no one ever complaines about DE monstrous creatures

Nobody probably ever thinks of them

So two? That's not many... Are they commonly used in Dark Eldar armies?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
The Dreadknight and a lot of the mechanical or construct MCs seem to be weaker in someways than proper walkers.

Most notably they:

- don't have as many chances to be repaired if they get damaged.
- could possibly destroy themselves (Riptide or the Dreadknight warp-periling).
- have other odd rules attached to them (wraithknight only being able to fire two sets of weapons at once, and the riptide taking command checks for loosing drones).
- have fewer hull-points that similarly sized machines.
- aren't as heavily armed as some of their counter-parts (Orkanauts and Imperial Knights).

You're going to get loads if hate for saying that MCs aren't that cheesy

SGTPozy wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
a fair few have access to IWND in some form or another

C'tan Shards, Canoptek Spyders & Dreadknights spring to mind as the only ones that dont

What MCs have IWND? I cannot think of a single one that does

I never said they had it standard, just have access to it in some form or another.

All the Tyranid MCs can take it as an upgrade, the wraithknight can be given wounds back via psyker or that wraith stone thing, as mentioned the deldar ones have ur in turn 3 with the haemonculus coven book. I believe there's a piece of wargear in the enclaves book that gives the riptide iwnd as well

SGTPozy wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
The Dreadknight and a lot of the mechanical or construct MCs seem to be weaker in someways than proper walkers.

Most notably they:

- don't have as many chances to be repaired if they get damaged.
- could possibly destroy themselves (Riptide or the Dreadknight warp-periling).
- have other odd rules attached to them (wraithknight only being able to fire two sets of weapons at once, and the riptide taking command checks for loosing drones).
- have fewer hull-points that similarly sized machines.
- aren't as heavily armed as some of their counter-parts (Orkanauts and Imperial Knights).

You're going to get loads if hate for saying that MCs aren't that cheesy

I didn't say they weren't cheese, Im saying they lack a lot of the advantages their walker counterparts have or weakness no walker would have.

 IHateNids wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
a fair few have access to IWND in some form or another

C'tan Shards, Canoptek Spyders & Dreadknights spring to mind as the only ones that dont

What MCs have IWND? I cannot think of a single one that does

I never said they had it standard, just have access to it in some form or another.

All the Tyranid MCs can take it as an upgrade, the wraithknight can be given wounds back via psyker or that wraith stone thing, as mentioned the deldar ones have ur in turn 3 with the haemonculus coven book. I believe there's a piece of wargear in the enclaves book that gives the riptide iwnd as well

the tyranid regneration ability IIRC is seldom seen due to it's cost

It's still there though. Much like the Riptide can get FNP. No-one I know uses it because it costs more than a suicide melta suit, but it can

The Adeptus Mechanicus automata (which are way higher tech than Riptides by an order of magnitude) have access to IWND (and can get it automatically depending on warlord trait).

Also, they can be repaired by Tech-priests just like vehicles.

 Mojo1jojo wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Mojo1jojo wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The same reason Wraithknights and Riptides are: To sell more Citadel plastic kits with superior rules. The best thing that can ever happen to a big unit is to be rated as a MC.

Toughfness 8 Deffdread, yes please

Yes but if it was a MC it might not have Grot Riggers. The dread needs the riggers. Having the right grot at the right (or wrong depending on outlook) time can make all the difference.

Give me Toughness 8 with 4 wounds and a 3+ 5++ ill give up the grot riggers in an instant

I'd give up 12-12-10 3 hp to t7 3+ 3 wound any day. At least i'm sure the dread won't get stunned or immobilized somewhere in the middle of the board doing nothing as having done so, it's falling out of threat saturation. And threat saturation is everything for orkses. That's basically the reason you don't see an effective dread in a footslogging army. And we're not talking about explosions yet.

 koooaei wrote:

 Mojo1jojo wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Mojo1jojo wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The same reason Wraithknights and Riptides are: To sell more Citadel plastic kits with superior rules. The best thing that can ever happen to a big unit is to be rated as a MC.

Toughfness 8 Deffdread, yes please

Yes but if it was a MC it might not have Grot Riggers. The dread needs the riggers. Having the right grot at the right (or wrong depending on outlook) time can make all the difference.

Give me Toughness 8 with 4 wounds and a 3+ 5++ ill give up the grot riggers in an instant

I'd give up 12-12-10 3 hp to t7 3+ 3 wound any day. At least i'm sure the dread won't get stunned or immobilized somewhere in the middle of the board doing nothing as having done so, it's falling out of threat saturation. And threat saturation is everything for orkses. That's basically the reason you don't see an effective dread in a footslogging army. And we're not talking about explosions yet.

Isn't ork stuff supposed to explode ? They seem to emphasize that a lot in the lore. Also the dread would be trading one weakness for another were it a MC.

MCs are particlarly vunerable to grav weapons, just for example

The Imperial Answer wrote:

Isn't ork stuff supposed to explode ? They seem to emphasize that a lot in the lore. Also the dread would be trading one weakness for another were it a MC.

I'd love my MC to explode.
And about trading weaknesses. Walkers have more. Grav weaponry? You need to deal all the 3 wounds to invalidate a MC. Or just one 6 to invalidate a walker. Not much different. It also means the opponent is 18' away. Which is what i want with orkses anyway. Or Grav cents / bikers are shooting a single MC and not a truck full of boyz or a BW.

 koooaei wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

Isn't ork stuff supposed to explode ? They seem to emphasize that a lot in the lore. Also the dread would be trading one weakness for another were it a MC.

I'd love my MC to explode.
And about trading weaknesses. Walkers have more. Grav weaponry? You need to deal all the 3 wounds to invalidate a MC. Or just one 6 to invalidate a walker. Not much different. It also means the opponent is 18' away. Which is what i want with orkses anyway. Or Grav cents / bikers are shooting a single MC and not a truck full of boyz or a BW.

maybe, thing is grav weapons are all salvo, a grav gun is gonna be firing 2-3 times, and a grav canon is gonna be firing 3-5 times. meanwhile almost all "vehicle crackers" tend to be much slower rates of fire. yet again not saying vehicles are great, but a space Marine tatical squad can be a serious threat to some of the badest MCs on the board

BrianDavion wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

Isn't ork stuff supposed to explode ? They seem to emphasize that a lot in the lore. Also the dread would be trading one weakness for another were it a MC.

I'd love my MC to explode.
And about trading weaknesses. Walkers have more. Grav weaponry? You need to deal all the 3 wounds to invalidate a MC. Or just one 6 to invalidate a walker. Not much different. It also means the opponent is 18' away. Which is what i want with orkses anyway. Or Grav cents / bikers are shooting a single MC and not a truck full of boyz or a BW.

maybe, thing is grav weapons are all salvo, a grav gun is gonna be firing 2-3 times, and a grav canon is gonna be firing 3-5 times. meanwhile almost all "vehicle crackers" tend to be much slower rates of fire. yet again not saying vehicles are great, but a space Marine tatical squad can be a serious threat to some of the badest MCs on the board

The problem is that stuff that works against MC more often than not works vs vehicles. Except for psy shreik and force weapons but thoseare quite rare. While vehicles are more likely to get invalidated - damage table.

Just count those 5 tac marines against a t7 3 wound 3+ MC and a 12-12-10 walker.

Let's say, tac marines have 2 meltas (1 combi)
Melta vs MC:
2 meltas deal 0.9 wounds, 1 krak deals 0.07 wounds, 2 bolt shots deal 0.07 - if they choose to rapid fire, than 0.14 - that's around 1.1 wound to a mc. The MC is fully operational.

Melta vs Walker:
2 meltas out of melta range have around 44% to get at least one penetrate which will result in a 1/3 chance to explode, 1/6 to get immobilized and 1/6 to get stunned thus, more than 20% to get invalidated for a game or killed ~8% to get invalidated for a turn.
If they get inside melta range that's around 50% to get invalidated for a game or killed and ~15% for a turn.

If you tell me that a melta is exactly for tank killing thus got to be better vs tanks, take plasma.

Plasma vs MC:
1.33 wounds, adding in krak nades that's around 1.5 wounds

Plasma vs Walker:
4 plasma shots have 0.44% chance to cause at least one penetrate and additional 0.44% to cause a glance. This 0.44% chance to penetrate have additional 1/6 chance to explode, 1/6 to immobilize and 1/6 to stun resulting in ~10% to get invalidated for a game or killed and ~8% to get invalidated for a turn.

Walkers loose here to plasma once again. And mind you, Walker still looses it's HP and they're easier to kill in mellee with krak nades as they have no armor saves. MC also get MTC, Fear and they have no rear armor. The only thing vehicle somewhat wins against is grav. But once again - who needs an immobilised mellee walker, so i'd not call it an outright win. You just stay alive albeit immobilised, thus invalidated.

And the arguement about MC being killed by small arms fire...it takes so much small arms fire away from other targets that it's nowhere near a bad thing.
The rules themself make walkers inferior to MC. Now if they cost less...but nope. They cost around the same. And also, 3 wound MC with 3+ save are generally NOT considered strong with all the stuff MC get nowadays.

sure but you're missing the point, which is that MCs DO have certin vunerabilities that Vees don't nesscarily have.

I'll gladly admit that small arms are mostly a wash, (sure lasguns vs a landraider are inffective but they're mostly ineffective against MOST MCs too due to MCs tending to have reasonably high toughness, just for example) but MCs do have some weaknesses and GW it seems has actually made an effort to bring these more to the fore. Grey Knights are particularly well equipped to deal with MCs, and the new toy in the space Marine codex was something almost custom crafted to kill MCs (in fact I'd be willing to bet the design conversation that created Grav weapons went a little along the lines of "so we wanna make each Marine codex stand out and have a nifty weapon no one else does. what can we do with vanillas?" "well.. the vanilla Marines are very ultramarine inspired, why not tyranid war veterns?" "not a bad idea, let's use it for a supplement, but they're a little too similer to sternguard veterns and are too ultramarine specific... although I like the idea of something that can allow ultramarines to kit for Tyranid killing... let's try to focus our ideas on some sort of balanced and fun response to tyranids"


basicly though aside from one or two problematic units, I think right now MCs vs walkers are in a not that bad place. it was really only in a cripplingly bad place in the past due to Smash. with that nerf I think it really is a matter if personal preferance.

BrianDavion wrote:

basicly though aside from one or two problematic units, I think right now MCs vs walkers are in a not that bad place. it was really only in a cripplingly bad place in the past due to Smash. with that nerf I think it really is a matter if personal preferance.

Yep. In fact, you're better off with a walker against GK. However, dedicated anti-mc that's more effective against MC rather than vehicles is super rare out of this codex and grav weaponry.

 koooaei wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

basicly though aside from one or two problematic units, I think right now MCs vs walkers are in a not that bad place. it was really only in a cripplingly bad place in the past due to Smash. with that nerf I think it really is a matter if personal preferance.

Yep. In fact, you're better off with a walker against GK. However, dedicated anti-mc that's more effective against MC rather than vehicles is super rare out of this codex and grav weaponry.

What about poison ? The Dark Eldar codex has a lot of options for poison which can affect MCs.

The Dreadknight is an exoskeleton, or a very big suit of power armor. That is why it is not a monstrous creature in the rules.

The vehicle rules could use some refining though. Giving them an armor save based on their sum of their Front, Side and Read armor values could work.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

basicly though aside from one or two problematic units, I think right now MCs vs walkers are in a not that bad place. it was really only in a cripplingly bad place in the past due to Smash. with that nerf I think it really is a matter if personal preferance.

Yep. In fact, you're better off with a walker against GK. However, dedicated anti-mc that's more effective against MC rather than vehicles is super rare out of this codex and grav weaponry.

What about poison ? The Dark Eldar codex has a lot of options for poison which can affect MCs.

They also have access to ranged haywire that does horrible things to vehicles no matter how tough Poison ain't that scary - at least you still have your saves. But yep, a tooled up DE can kill both MC and Walkers quite effectively.

 koooaei wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

basicly though aside from one or two problematic units, I think right now MCs vs walkers are in a not that bad place. it was really only in a cripplingly bad place in the past due to Smash. with that nerf I think it really is a matter if personal preferance.

Yep. In fact, you're better off with a walker against GK. However, dedicated anti-mc that's more effective against MC rather than vehicles is super rare out of this codex and grav weaponry.

What about poison ? The Dark Eldar codex has a lot of options for poison which can affect MCs.

They also have access to ranged haywire that does horrible things to vehicles no matter how tough Poison ain't that scary - at least you still have your saves. But yep, a tooled up DE can kill both MC and Walkers quite effectively.

Haywire also works on MCs as well as vehicals. You can't poison a vehicle no matter how hard you try.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

Haywire also works on MCs as well as vehicals.

No it doesn't. Mechanicum MCs have a special rule that allow it to wound them on a 6. They are not normally affected by haywire.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

Haywire also works on MCs as well as vehicals.

No it doesn't. Mechanicum MCs have a special rule that allow it to wound them on a 6. They are not normally affected by haywire.

I'm not entirely familiar with the mechanicus faction's rules so that is useful to know.

I think he meant the fact haywire weapons can wound using their strength, whereas most poison is s-

I checked the rule book, I was wrong on Haywire. It does not affect MCs.

But on the issue of poison, how many delivery systems are there for it ? It seems that given the sheer number of poison attacks someone could throw at you, you would eventually fail the number of saves required to keep the MC alive.

Also, when you resolve poison attacks, is it one poison attack for every wound you inflict on the MC or target or is it only one attack ?

Also, are there any psychic powers that work on MCs but not walkers and vehicles ?

The Imperial Answer wrote:
I checked the rule book, I was wrong on Haywire. It does not affect MCs.

But on the issue of poison, how many delivery systems are there for it ? It seems that given the sheer number of poison attacks someone could throw at you, you would eventually fail the number of saves required to keep the MC alive.

Also, when you resolve poison attacks, is it one poison attack for every wound you inflict on the MC or target or is it only one attack ?

Haywire grenades work against MC's as they have a base strength of 1, but you don't roll on the haywire table because well... the haywire rule itself doesn't work. If you somehow drop a T5 MC to T4 using whatever power or ability you could potentially on a 6, but you mayswell just use your S3+.


Poison uses the poison rule to wound rather than its normal S + poison, so it doesn't work like Haywire.

Krak Grenades work, as do melta bombs.

Unless they changed the grenades rule saying you couldn't attack MC's with your grenades.

NauticalKendall wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
I checked the rule book, I was wrong on Haywire. It does not affect MCs.

But on the issue of poison, how many delivery systems are there for it ? It seems that given the sheer number of poison attacks someone could throw at you, you would eventually fail the number of saves required to keep the MC alive.

Also, when you resolve poison attacks, is it one poison attack for every wound you inflict on the MC or target or is it only one attack ?

Haywire grenades work against MC's as they have a base strength of 1, but you don't roll on the haywire table because well... the haywire rule itself doesn't work. If you somehow drop a T5 MC to T4 using whatever power or ability you could potentially on a 6, but you mayswell just use your S3+.


Poison uses the poison rule to wound rather than its normal S + poison, so it doesn't work like Haywire.

Krak Grenades work, as do melta bombs.

Unless they changed the grenades rule saying you couldn't attack MC's with your grenades.

Aside from wounding, does poison have any debilitating effects on the target ?

To put it simply, nope.

Well walkers may have a few glaring weaknesses compared to a MCs but it seems they make up for it in capability. A walker can fire all of its weapons during a turn. For some odd reason MCs can only fire two if I am reading this correctly.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Well walkers may have a few glaring weaknesses compared to a MCs but it seems they make up for it in capability. A walker can fire all of its weapons during a turn. For some odd reason MCs can only fire two if I am reading this correctly.

Name a walker with more than two weapons that isn't superheavy.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Well walkers may have a few glaring weaknesses compared to a MCs but it seems they make up for it in capability. A walker can fire all of its weapons during a turn. For some odd reason MCs can only fire two if I am reading this correctly.

Name a walker with more than two weapons that isn't superheavy.

I refer to these examples then.

The Gorkanaut:

-Deffstorm mega-shoota
-Two twin-linked big shootas
-Two rokkit launchas
-Skorcha
-Klaw of Gork

The Morkanaut:

-Two twin-linked big shootas
-Kustom mega-blasta
-Kustom mega-kannon
-Two rokkint launchas
-Klaw of Gork

The Meka-Dread:

-Options for 2x shooting weapons and a third for a "rokkit-bomb rack", all on the same meka-dread meaning 3x shooting weapons.

Forge-Fiend

-May have up to 3x shooting weapons, including 3x ecto-plasma cannons.

The Defiler

- A battle-cannon
- May replace either of its other two arms on the torso with shooting weapons from its war-gear selection, giving it 3x shooting weapons.


I'm not too familiar with the Contemptor Dreadnoughts, but I think they can also have two shooting weapons on each arm and a Cyclone Missle Launcher.

Hahaha good one Imperial Answer!

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Well walkers may have a few glaring weaknesses compared to a MCs but it seems they make up for it in capability. A walker can fire all of its weapons during a turn. For some odd reason MCs can only fire two if I am reading this correctly.

Name a walker with more than two weapons that isn't superheavy.

I refer to these examples then.

The Gorkanaut:

-Deffstorm mega-shoota
-Two twin-linked big shootas
-Two rokkit launchas
-Skorcha
-Klaw of Gork

The Morkanaut:

-Two twin-linked big shootas
-Kustom mega-blasta
-Kustom mega-kannon
-Two rokkint launchas
-Klaw of Gork

The Meka-Dread:

-Options for 2x shooting weapons and a third for a "rokkit-bomb rack", all on the same meka-dread meaning 3x shooting weapons.

Forge-Fiend

-May have up to 3x shooting weapons, including 3x ecto-plasma cannons.

The Defiler

- A battle-cannon
- May replace either of its other two arms on the torso with shooting weapons from its war-gear selection, giving it 3x shooting weapons.


I'm not too familiar with the Contemptor Dreadnoughts, but I think they can also have two shooting weapons on each arm and a Cyclone Missle Launcher.

Yep Comteptor dreads (mortis pattern) do indeed have 2 guns plus either a cyclone or havoc (depending on era), also standard mortis dreads,

 Formosa wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Well walkers may have a few glaring weaknesses compared to a MCs but it seems they make up for it in capability. A walker can fire all of its weapons during a turn. For some odd reason MCs can only fire two if I am reading this correctly.

Name a walker with more than two weapons that isn't superheavy.

I refer to these examples then.

The Gorkanaut:

-Deffstorm mega-shoota
-Two twin-linked big shootas
-Two rokkit launchas
-Skorcha
-Klaw of Gork

The Morkanaut:

-Two twin-linked big shootas
-Kustom mega-blasta
-Kustom mega-kannon
-Two rokkint launchas
-Klaw of Gork

The Meka-Dread:

-Options for 2x shooting weapons and a third for a "rokkit-bomb rack", all on the same meka-dread meaning 3x shooting weapons.

Forge-Fiend

-May have up to 3x shooting weapons, including 3x ecto-plasma cannons.

The Defiler

- A battle-cannon
- May replace either of its other two arms on the torso with shooting weapons from its war-gear selection, giving it 3x shooting weapons.


I'm not too familiar with the Contemptor Dreadnoughts, but I think they can also have two shooting weapons on each arm and a Cyclone Missle Launcher.

Yep Comteptor dreads (mortis pattern) do indeed have 2 guns plus either a cyclone or havoc (depending on era), also standard mortis dreads,

It is worth noting that the Defile still must snap fire its guns after firing the battle cannon

Damage table is a reason why naughts are not used out of casual enviroment. Their durability doesn't scale too well. You got somewhat identical chances to loose a 50 pt kan and a 250 pt naught to a single melta shot. But ork walkers are not used out of casual enviroment anywayz. Cause...they're walkers.

If you put them in a mechanised list with lots of av stuff like trucks or wagons, they don't keep up cause they're slow and thus are wasted.

If you put them in a footslogging list, they're one of a few things with AV and thus die too quickly to the opponent's AT weaponry which would have been wasted if you had just spent this points on more boyz.

There's no fast delivery for them other than outflanking which is restricted to a specific warlord trait and has better uses or deepstriking but it only happens on a 6+.

So, the only way to field them more or less effectively is in combination with even more walkers. So, a dread mob. But it has a problem of fielding...walkers that ain't amazing and won't work too well if the opponent brings some decent AT which everyone brings now cause it's cheap and needed to deal with IK and MC. While MC and IK are better vs such weaponry than walkers.

It's no use that walkers are immune to bolter fire and poisoned weapons. You can field them effectively. Provided that the opponent ain't prepared to deal with walkers AND mc. There's just too many cheap weaponry that's too effective vs regular walkers.

If more armies had access to dedicated anti-MC that doesn't affect vehicles like force weapons and psy-shreik or something, than walkers would be great. Cause there'd be less melta, lazcannons, grav, etc.

 koooaei wrote:
Damage table is a reason why naughts are not used out of casual enviroment. Their durability doesn't scale too well. You got somewhat identical chances to loose a 50 pt kan and a 250 pt naught to a single melta shot. But ork walkers are not used out of casual enviroment anywayz. Cause...they're walkers.

If you put them in a mechanised list with lots of av stuff like trucks or wagons, they don't keep up cause they're slow and thus are wasted.

If you put them in a footslogging list, they're one of a few things with AV and thus die too quickly to the opponent's AT weaponry which would have been wasted if you had just spent this points on more boyz.

There's no fast delivery for them other than outflanking which is restricted to a specific warlord trait and has better uses or deepstriking but it only happens on a 6+.

So, the only way to field them more or less effectively is in combination with even more walkers. So, a dread mob. But it has a problem of fielding...walkers that ain't amazing and won't work too well if the opponent brings some decent AT which everyone brings now cause it's cheap and needed to deal with IK and MC. While MC and IK are better vs such weaponry than walkers.

It's no use that walkers are immune to bolter fire and poisoned weapons. You can field them effectively. Provided that the opponent ain't prepared to deal with walkers AND mc. There's just too many cheap weaponry that's too effective vs regular walkers.

If more armies had access to dedicated anti-MC that doesn't affect vehicles like force weapons and psy-shreik or something, than walkers would be great. Cause there'd be less melta, lazcannons, grav, etc.

Well ideally Melta-weaponry is supposed to kill walkers. Walkers are still vehicles after all and share most of their weaknesses so it might be odd if they weren't vulnerable to melta, las, grav and what have you.

But for a quick comparison (and because I'm unfamiliar with this unit) if you were to take a regular squiggoth and a naut, which one would stand a greater chance of survival ?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Well walkers may have a few glaring weaknesses compared to a MCs but it seems they make up for it in capability. A walker can fire all of its weapons during a turn. For some odd reason MCs can only fire two if I am reading this correctly.

Name a walker with more than two weapons that isn't superheavy.

I refer to these examples then.

The Gorkanaut:

-Deffstorm mega-shoota
-Two twin-linked big shootas
-Two rokkit launchas
-Skorcha
-Klaw of Gork

The Morkanaut:

-Two twin-linked big shootas
-Kustom mega-blasta
-Kustom mega-kannon
-Two rokkint launchas
-Klaw of Gork

The Meka-Dread:

-Options for 2x shooting weapons and a third for a "rokkit-bomb rack", all on the same meka-dread meaning 3x shooting weapons.

Forge-Fiend

-May have up to 3x shooting weapons, including 3x ecto-plasma cannons.

The Defiler

- A battle-cannon
- May replace either of its other two arms on the torso with shooting weapons from its war-gear selection, giving it 3x shooting weapons.


I'm not too familiar with the Contemptor Dreadnoughts, but I think they can also have two shooting weapons on each arm and a Cyclone Missle Launcher.

Yep Comteptor dreads (mortis pattern) do indeed have 2 guns plus either a cyclone or havoc (depending on era), also standard mortis dreads,

It is worth noting that the Defile still must snap fire its guns after firing the battle cannon

yeah defiler and lemen russ are both two examples of units that should be good, somewhat hurt by the rules on ordenance weapons

Is there anything that would force a MC to have to make snap-firing shots ?

Flyers, overwatch, off the top of my head.

Invisibility is another

Can MCs and Walkers both be taken out by things like monolith's portal of exile ? I've seen this take down a dreadknight and various other models, but never a vehicle or walker.

Also do Mind-shackle scarabs function against MCs and Walkers both or only against non-vehical targets ? (And for that matter is it weapons strength or melee strength ?)

MCs yes, as it is a toughness test

Not walkers, because they don't have toughness values

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Is there anything that would force a MC to have to make snap-firing shots ?

firing a battlecanon?

it's a irrelevent issue mind you as no MC has even been equiped with one

 IHateNids wrote:
MCs yes, as it is a toughness test

Not walkers, because they don't have toughness values

Are there any other weapons that affect targets based on toughness ?

The beam things that Wraiths can take. The name of it escapes me, as no-one takes them, so they aren't well known

The Imperial Answer wrote:

But for a quick comparison (and because I'm unfamiliar with this unit) if you were to take a regular squiggoth and a naut, which one would stand a greater chance of survival ?

Squiggoth unless you play vs GK or daemons with ID swords. But squiggoths and naughts have different roles anywayz. Squiggoths are more of a firing base/delivery. Naughts are supposed to be mini-stompas.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Fire Caste outnumbers the Space Marines several times over- which means yes, they have a vast army. They likely outnumber the Eldar, what with their "dying race" status.

GK are better equipped... but there are only, what, a thousand of them for the countless trillions of humanity? I'm not sure comparing the elite of the elite of the elite of humanity to your average Fire Warrior is all that fair- and either way, the Riptide is a better piece of gear than a Dreadknight. I'm not sure anyone, no matter how off their rocker, is going to come here and say the Dreadknight is a superior machine to the XV-104.

Every Fire Warrior has a pulse rifle or carbine (depending on open or close-in fighting). Humanity can't even afford to give bolters to all of its ground troops, and bolters suck in every way compared to a pulse rifle.

Carapace armor isn't standard for IG- the flak jacket is. Looking at the new Codex, it seems that there's no longer an option (I swear there was in 5th, but could be wrong) to upgrade standard Guard or Vets to Carapace armor.

The armor the AM gives to its most elite warriors is standard-issue for Tau troops. Not the elite- Joe Fire Warrior has it.

If it was somehow decided by the Imperium that every single loyal space marine had to be killed by the Imperial Guard, they could literally kill them with the bodies of guardsmen. Sending so many waves of totally unarmed (and unarmored) guardsmen at them that that marines drown in blood or are overrun my naked, unarmed dudes, and subsequently torn apart.

This wouldn't much of a dent in the Imperial Guard's numbers either. There are less marines than their are worlds in the Imperium, yet each world in the Imperium gives up millions of Guardsmen in tithe.

So, basically, the Guard could wipe out the Tau Empire by shooting themselves out of torpedo tubes and nakedly bum-rushing the firing-line if they were so inclined, but the Imperium has much more pressing matters.


EDIT: So far as Joe Firewarrior vs the elite of the Imperial Guard goes, you're right. Joe the Cannon-fodder Firewarrior does have a much better weapon and better armor standard than the average guardsmen have.

It's damned unfortunate that the number of elite IG vets equipped with Carapace Armor and wielding Plasma Guns is greater than that of standard firewarriors by more than 100 fold. Ye' basic firewarrior may be equipped upto par with IG elites.. But there are more IG elites than there are basic firewarriors by a significant margin. Quantity is a quality all its own.

There's over a million space marines, and the Imperium only holds a million worlds.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Fire Caste outnumbers the Space Marines several times over- which means yes, they have a vast army. They likely outnumber the Eldar, what with their "dying race" status.

GK are better equipped... but there are only, what, a thousand of them for the countless trillions of humanity? I'm not sure comparing the elite of the elite of the elite of humanity to your average Fire Warrior is all that fair- and either way, the Riptide is a better piece of gear than a Dreadknight. I'm not sure anyone, no matter how off their rocker, is going to come here and say the Dreadknight is a superior machine to the XV-104.

Every Fire Warrior has a pulse rifle or carbine (depending on open or close-in fighting). Humanity can't even afford to give bolters to all of its ground troops, and bolters suck in every way compared to a pulse rifle.

Carapace armor isn't standard for IG- the flak jacket is. Looking at the new Codex, it seems that there's no longer an option (I swear there was in 5th, but could be wrong) to upgrade standard Guard or Vets to Carapace armor.

The armor the AM gives to its most elite warriors is standard-issue for Tau troops. Not the elite- Joe Fire Warrior has it.

If it was somehow decided by the Imperium that every single loyal space marine had to be killed by the Imperial Guard, they could literally kill them with the bodies of guardsmen. Sending so many waves of totally unarmed (and unarmored) guardsmen at them that that marines drown in blood or are overrun my naked, unarmed dudes, and subsequently torn apart.

This wouldn't much of a dent in the Imperial Guard's numbers either. There are less marines than their are worlds in the Imperium, yet each world in the Imperium gives up millions of Guardsmen in tithe.

So, basically, the Guard could wipe out the Tau Empire by shooting themselves out of torpedo tubes and nakedly bum-rushing the firing-line if they were so inclined, but the Imperium has much more pressing matters.


EDIT: So far as Joe Firewarrior vs the elite of the Imperial Guard goes, you're right. Joe the Cannon-fodder Firewarrior does have a much better weapon and better armor standard than the average guardsmen have.

It's damned unfortunate that the number of elite IG vets equipped with Carapace Armor and wielding Plasma Guns is greater than that of standard firewarriors by more than 100 fold. Ye' basic firewarrior may be equipped upto par with IG elites.. But there are more IG elites than there are basic firewarriors by a significant margin. Quantity is a quality all its own.

There's over a million space marines, and the Imperium only holds a million worlds.

IOM IIRC has more then a million words,

BrianDavion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Fire Caste outnumbers the Space Marines several times over- which means yes, they have a vast army. They likely outnumber the Eldar, what with their "dying race" status.

GK are better equipped... but there are only, what, a thousand of them for the countless trillions of humanity? I'm not sure comparing the elite of the elite of the elite of humanity to your average Fire Warrior is all that fair- and either way, the Riptide is a better piece of gear than a Dreadknight. I'm not sure anyone, no matter how off their rocker, is going to come here and say the Dreadknight is a superior machine to the XV-104.

Every Fire Warrior has a pulse rifle or carbine (depending on open or close-in fighting). Humanity can't even afford to give bolters to all of its ground troops, and bolters suck in every way compared to a pulse rifle.

Carapace armor isn't standard for IG- the flak jacket is. Looking at the new Codex, it seems that there's no longer an option (I swear there was in 5th, but could be wrong) to upgrade standard Guard or Vets to Carapace armor.

The armor the AM gives to its most elite warriors is standard-issue for Tau troops. Not the elite- Joe Fire Warrior has it.

If it was somehow decided by the Imperium that every single loyal space marine had to be killed by the Imperial Guard, they could literally kill them with the bodies of guardsmen. Sending so many waves of totally unarmed (and unarmored) guardsmen at them that that marines drown in blood or are overrun my naked, unarmed dudes, and subsequently torn apart.

This wouldn't much of a dent in the Imperial Guard's numbers either. There are less marines than their are worlds in the Imperium, yet each world in the Imperium gives up millions of Guardsmen in tithe.

So, basically, the Guard could wipe out the Tau Empire by shooting themselves out of torpedo tubes and nakedly bum-rushing the firing-line if they were so inclined, but the Imperium has much more pressing matters.


EDIT: So far as Joe Firewarrior vs the elite of the Imperial Guard goes, you're right. Joe the Cannon-fodder Firewarrior does have a much better weapon and better armor standard than the average guardsmen have.

It's damned unfortunate that the number of elite IG vets equipped with Carapace Armor and wielding Plasma Guns is greater than that of standard firewarriors by more than 100 fold. Ye' basic firewarrior may be equipped upto par with IG elites.. But there are more IG elites than there are basic firewarriors by a significant margin. Quantity is a quality all its own.

There's over a million space marines, and the Imperium only holds a million worlds.

IOM IIRC has more then a million words,

The Imperium has consistently been described as having a million worlds at the start of every single Black Library book. The only exceptions are taking exception to something that has been printed literally thousands of times.

 Wyzilla wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Fire Caste outnumbers the Space Marines several times over- which means yes, they have a vast army. They likely outnumber the Eldar, what with their "dying race" status.

GK are better equipped... but there are only, what, a thousand of them for the countless trillions of humanity? I'm not sure comparing the elite of the elite of the elite of humanity to your average Fire Warrior is all that fair- and either way, the Riptide is a better piece of gear than a Dreadknight. I'm not sure anyone, no matter how off their rocker, is going to come here and say the Dreadknight is a superior machine to the XV-104.

Every Fire Warrior has a pulse rifle or carbine (depending on open or close-in fighting). Humanity can't even afford to give bolters to all of its ground troops, and bolters suck in every way compared to a pulse rifle.

Carapace armor isn't standard for IG- the flak jacket is. Looking at the new Codex, it seems that there's no longer an option (I swear there was in 5th, but could be wrong) to upgrade standard Guard or Vets to Carapace armor.

The armor the AM gives to its most elite warriors is standard-issue for Tau troops. Not the elite- Joe Fire Warrior has it.

If it was somehow decided by the Imperium that every single loyal space marine had to be killed by the Imperial Guard, they could literally kill them with the bodies of guardsmen. Sending so many waves of totally unarmed (and unarmored) guardsmen at them that that marines drown in blood or are overrun my naked, unarmed dudes, and subsequently torn apart.

This wouldn't much of a dent in the Imperial Guard's numbers either. There are less marines than their are worlds in the Imperium, yet each world in the Imperium gives up millions of Guardsmen in tithe.

So, basically, the Guard could wipe out the Tau Empire by shooting themselves out of torpedo tubes and nakedly bum-rushing the firing-line if they were so inclined, but the Imperium has much more pressing matters.


EDIT: So far as Joe Firewarrior vs the elite of the Imperial Guard goes, you're right. Joe the Cannon-fodder Firewarrior does have a much better weapon and better armor standard than the average guardsmen have.

It's damned unfortunate that the number of elite IG vets equipped with Carapace Armor and wielding Plasma Guns is greater than that of standard firewarriors by more than 100 fold. Ye' basic firewarrior may be equipped upto par with IG elites.. But there are more IG elites than there are basic firewarriors by a significant margin. Quantity is a quality all its own.

There's over a million space marines, and the Imperium only holds a million worlds.

IOM IIRC has more then a million words,

The Imperium has consistently been described as having a million worlds at the start of every single Black Library book. The only exceptions are taking exception to something that has been printed literally thousands of times.

thing is that's if anything simply a number thrown out as a suitably high number. the real answer is "umm we're not sure, let's start counting 1 2, 3 shoot the tyranids ate that one ohh crap we found 4 more.......... ya know we're not really sure!"
basicly the IoM's size is an estimate at best. it's offical size is pretty much "...... WE'VE LOST COUNT!"

AFAIK, It's hardly cold established fact, but rather fancy speach. Saying "one world for each marine" is more emphasizing the rarity of marines. There are something between 10-60 billion habitable planets in the milky way. If the imperium only has control over 1Mil of them, that's rather sad

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
AFAIK, It's hardly cold established fact, but rather fancy speach. Saying "one world for each marine" is more emphasizing the rarity of marines. There are something between 10-60 billion habitable planets in the milky way. If the imperium only has control over 1Mil of them, that's rather sad

thing is the IoM offically CLAIMS all of those worlds. what they actually control is proably a bit of a differance. but the IoM basicly claims rightful domain over the whole galaxy

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
AFAIK, It's hardly cold established fact, but rather fancy speach. Saying "one world for each marine" is more emphasizing the rarity of marines. There are something between 10-60 billion habitable planets in the milky way. If the imperium only has control over 1Mil of them, that's rather sad

The Imperium can only access worlds with stable warp routes. Otherwise it's suicide trying to obtain or send resources to them.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
AFAIK, It's hardly cold established fact, but rather fancy speach. Saying "one world for each marine" is more emphasizing the rarity of marines. There are something between 10-60 billion habitable planets in the milky way. If the imperium only has control over 1Mil of them, that's rather sad

We don't know how many of those planets would still be classified as "habitable" in the 41st millennium. Between the Tyranids Incursions, worlds being dragged into the warp, suns going out and worlds being hi-jacked on inter-stellar joy-rides, the Necron's red harvests and such the number might be smaller than what we think.

 koooaei wrote:
Squiggoth unless you play vs GK or daemons with ID swords. But squiggoths and naughts have different roles anywayz. Squiggoths are more of a firing base/delivery. Naughts are supposed to be mini-stompas.

I thought the Nauts were supposed to be land-raiders. Also its Ironic if they are mini-stompas given the old stompa was about the size of a rhino or land-raider in older editions.

Going back to the question...
I agree with the OP that the Dreadknight should be a walker.
The reason for me is the key word Creature
A dreadknight is not a creature, it is predominantly a machine controlled by a living thing. Would a tank being driven by living thing be considered a creature? No I don't think so.
A riptide is not a creature, it's essentially a suit of armour. In my opinion it should be jump-infantry with some form of 'Bulky' special rule that prevents it from entering buildings and transports.
A Wraithknight is more tricky; it is a wraithbone construct that is living in a similar way to a plant, which could be considered a creature depending on how 'living' it is. However it is also a spirit, and can fully function on its own. As we don't really know enough about the Eldar after death, but can only assume that it allows the same level of processing as being 'alive' does. Therefore I see why it is a creature.
A talos or chronos is also a creature. It expresses limited levels of intelligence and self-awareness, but it is alive.
A Knarlock (Which should have been Tau's answer to a monstrous creature...) is a creature, the same as 'Nids are.
Essentially, a Dreadknight is a monstrous creature because it provides the iom with one of the few things the did not have, and the iom are GW's favourites and tend to get 'one of everything' as it were. The only exceptions of things the iom don't have that other factions do (from what I can think of off the top of my head) are Eldar Jetbikes, Daemons and I can't recall anything from iom having mastery level 4 or iwnd. But I could be wrong.
So essentially the Dreadknight is a monstrous creature because GW thought 'ohh the iom don't have one yet, better give them one so they are still the 'best' faction'.

Sorry if it sounded a bit rant-like by the way xD

the dreadknight is an exoskelliton, just like the Tau battlesuits. it's as much a monsterous creature as a riptide is.

Both should just be 'big infantry' so infantry with the supah-dupah bulky rule.

This would make them lose:
MTC
Relentless
AP2 CC
Fear
etc.

These would nerf them enough IMO

The one problem though is the Dreadknights are the work horses of the Grey Knight codex right now. To nerf the Dreadknight would deal a serious blow to the codex as a whole and you would only see people taking Grey Knights for cheap Terminators.

Honestly, I am on the fence about this and I don't know if this was brought up because I didn't go through all the posts but if you look at what the Dreadknight was designed for in the fluff I think it gives it the leanings of why they gave it Monstrous Creature over a Walker status. They were designed specifically to let a Grey Knight do battle with Greater Daemon which itself is a Monstrous Creature so they were probably trying to put it on the same footing as they are.

I understand that it is mostly mechanical but I do put Dreadknights in the same vein as Centurions in which essentially it is a Space Marine within a Space Marine making it more like an exoskeleton like the Tau battle suits.

I don't know if anyone brought this in but look at the difference between an Imperial Knight and a Dreadknight which I think is a bit better of a comparison than a Dreadknight to Dreadnought.

Now the Wraithknight is also sticky because everything in Eldar building is made out of that bone material so what is the difference between having a tank made out of it and the Wraithknight.

Is there really an answer that would make everyone happy? I don't really think so. Dreadknights, Riptides and Wraithknights are a huge grey area when it becomes the debate of where to mechanics end and creature begin or the other way around.

If an army is completely dependent on one unit then that unit is broken.

Or integral

DKs are the only thing in the GK book that can go toe to toe with Greater Daemons and stand a chance, besides Draigo

and in the book that's designed to combat Daemons, that's kinda important, no?

SGTPozy wrote:
If an army is completely dependent on one unit then that unit is broken.

Or the rest of the army is broken in the other direction
Or both

In the case of GK it's toward the both side.
Am I saying the DK isn't too powerful for its own good? No, it is. But crippling it (or simply reducing it to a more appropriate power level) would make it hard for GK to compete, meaning they also need a buff in some way, even if it's minor.

what grey knights need is a wider range of options really. right now as it stands remove just about anything from the codex and they'll feel it. with the possiable exception of strike squads and purgation squads. which I agree need some tweeks to be a little more valueable to the GK order of battle

I would gladly put the Dreadknight on the altar of sacrifice if we could get a goddamn balanced codex with options.

 Quickjager wrote:
I would gladly put the Dreadknight on the altar of sacrifice if we could get a goddamn balanced codex with options.

yeah, as it is codex GK is REALLY short on options, the reason every GK player takes dreadknights is because the heavy support slot for GKs consists of them, land raiders (which can be taken as dedicated transports and synergize poorly with a Nemisis strike force list anyway) and purgation squads which just straight up suck. when only one of your HS options is any good, course you see a lot of em

BrianDavion wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I would gladly put the Dreadknight on the altar of sacrifice if we could get a goddamn balanced codex with options.

yeah, as it is codex GK is REALLY short on options, the reason every GK player takes dreadknights is because the heavy support slot for GKs consists of them, land raiders (which can be taken as dedicated transports and synergize poorly with a Nemisis strike force list anyway) and purgation squads which just straight up suck. when only one of your HS options is any good, course you see a lot of em

I was not aware the Grey Knights codex had some of those issues.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I would gladly put the Dreadknight on the altar of sacrifice if we could get a goddamn balanced codex with options.

yeah, as it is codex GK is REALLY short on options, the reason every GK player takes dreadknights is because the heavy support slot for GKs consists of them, land raiders (which can be taken as dedicated transports and synergize poorly with a Nemisis strike force list anyway) and purgation squads which just straight up suck. when only one of your HS options is any good, course you see a lot of em

I was not aware the Grey Knights codex had some of those issues.

it's a bit light on options. when the new 7th edition codex came out, GW decided to make the codex the Grey Knight Codex. and thus remove inqusitional elements from the book (which, long term I think may be a good idea) but yeah, the reason you see so many GK lists that are similer isn't that all GKs are a buncha netlisting WAACs but rather the varity of units is pretty small, and the one or two bad units are pretty obvious