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 Co'tor Shas wrote:
AFAIK, It's hardly cold established fact, but rather fancy speach. Saying "one world for each marine" is more emphasizing the rarity of marines. There are something between 10-60 billion habitable planets in the milky way. If the imperium only has control over 1Mil of them, that's rather sad

We don't know how many of those planets would still be classified as "habitable" in the 41st millennium. Between the Tyranids Incursions, worlds being dragged into the warp, suns going out and worlds being hi-jacked on inter-stellar joy-rides, the Necron's red harvests and such the number might be smaller than what we think.

 koooaei wrote:
Squiggoth unless you play vs GK or daemons with ID swords. But squiggoths and naughts have different roles anywayz. Squiggoths are more of a firing base/delivery. Naughts are supposed to be mini-stompas.

I thought the Nauts were supposed to be land-raiders. Also its Ironic if they are mini-stompas given the old stompa was about the size of a rhino or land-raider in older editions.

Going back to the question...
I agree with the OP that the Dreadknight should be a walker.
The reason for me is the key word Creature
A dreadknight is not a creature, it is predominantly a machine controlled by a living thing. Would a tank being driven by living thing be considered a creature? No I don't think so.
A riptide is not a creature, it's essentially a suit of armour. In my opinion it should be jump-infantry with some form of 'Bulky' special rule that prevents it from entering buildings and transports.
A Wraithknight is more tricky; it is a wraithbone construct that is living in a similar way to a plant, which could be considered a creature depending on how 'living' it is. However it is also a spirit, and can fully function on its own. As we don't really know enough about the Eldar after death, but can only assume that it allows the same level of processing as being 'alive' does. Therefore I see why it is a creature.
A talos or chronos is also a creature. It expresses limited levels of intelligence and self-awareness, but it is alive.
A Knarlock (Which should have been Tau's answer to a monstrous creature...) is a creature, the same as 'Nids are.
Essentially, a Dreadknight is a monstrous creature because it provides the iom with one of the few things the did not have, and the iom are GW's favourites and tend to get 'one of everything' as it were. The only exceptions of things the iom don't have that other factions do (from what I can think of off the top of my head) are Eldar Jetbikes, Daemons and I can't recall anything from iom having mastery level 4 or iwnd. But I could be wrong.
So essentially the Dreadknight is a monstrous creature because GW thought 'ohh the iom don't have one yet, better give them one so they are still the 'best' faction'.

Sorry if it sounded a bit rant-like by the way xD

the dreadknight is an exoskelliton, just like the Tau battlesuits. it's as much a monsterous creature as a riptide is.

Both should just be 'big infantry' so infantry with the supah-dupah bulky rule.

This would make them lose:
MTC
Relentless
AP2 CC
Fear
etc.

These would nerf them enough IMO

The one problem though is the Dreadknights are the work horses of the Grey Knight codex right now. To nerf the Dreadknight would deal a serious blow to the codex as a whole and you would only see people taking Grey Knights for cheap Terminators.

Honestly, I am on the fence about this and I don't know if this was brought up because I didn't go through all the posts but if you look at what the Dreadknight was designed for in the fluff I think it gives it the leanings of why they gave it Monstrous Creature over a Walker status. They were designed specifically to let a Grey Knight do battle with Greater Daemon which itself is a Monstrous Creature so they were probably trying to put it on the same footing as they are.

I understand that it is mostly mechanical but I do put Dreadknights in the same vein as Centurions in which essentially it is a Space Marine within a Space Marine making it more like an exoskeleton like the Tau battle suits.

I don't know if anyone brought this in but look at the difference between an Imperial Knight and a Dreadknight which I think is a bit better of a comparison than a Dreadknight to Dreadnought.

Now the Wraithknight is also sticky because everything in Eldar building is made out of that bone material so what is the difference between having a tank made out of it and the Wraithknight.

Is there really an answer that would make everyone happy? I don't really think so. Dreadknights, Riptides and Wraithknights are a huge grey area when it becomes the debate of where to mechanics end and creature begin or the other way around.

If an army is completely dependent on one unit then that unit is broken.

Or integral

DKs are the only thing in the GK book that can go toe to toe with Greater Daemons and stand a chance, besides Draigo

and in the book that's designed to combat Daemons, that's kinda important, no?

SGTPozy wrote:
If an army is completely dependent on one unit then that unit is broken.

Or the rest of the army is broken in the other direction
Or both

In the case of GK it's toward the both side.
Am I saying the DK isn't too powerful for its own good? No, it is. But crippling it (or simply reducing it to a more appropriate power level) would make it hard for GK to compete, meaning they also need a buff in some way, even if it's minor.

what grey knights need is a wider range of options really. right now as it stands remove just about anything from the codex and they'll feel it. with the possiable exception of strike squads and purgation squads. which I agree need some tweeks to be a little more valueable to the GK order of battle

I would gladly put the Dreadknight on the altar of sacrifice if we could get a goddamn balanced codex with options.

 Quickjager wrote:
I would gladly put the Dreadknight on the altar of sacrifice if we could get a goddamn balanced codex with options.

yeah, as it is codex GK is REALLY short on options, the reason every GK player takes dreadknights is because the heavy support slot for GKs consists of them, land raiders (which can be taken as dedicated transports and synergize poorly with a Nemisis strike force list anyway) and purgation squads which just straight up suck. when only one of your HS options is any good, course you see a lot of em

BrianDavion wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I would gladly put the Dreadknight on the altar of sacrifice if we could get a goddamn balanced codex with options.

yeah, as it is codex GK is REALLY short on options, the reason every GK player takes dreadknights is because the heavy support slot for GKs consists of them, land raiders (which can be taken as dedicated transports and synergize poorly with a Nemisis strike force list anyway) and purgation squads which just straight up suck. when only one of your HS options is any good, course you see a lot of em

I was not aware the Grey Knights codex had some of those issues.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I would gladly put the Dreadknight on the altar of sacrifice if we could get a goddamn balanced codex with options.

yeah, as it is codex GK is REALLY short on options, the reason every GK player takes dreadknights is because the heavy support slot for GKs consists of them, land raiders (which can be taken as dedicated transports and synergize poorly with a Nemisis strike force list anyway) and purgation squads which just straight up suck. when only one of your HS options is any good, course you see a lot of em

I was not aware the Grey Knights codex had some of those issues.

it's a bit light on options. when the new 7th edition codex came out, GW decided to make the codex the Grey Knight Codex. and thus remove inqusitional elements from the book (which, long term I think may be a good idea) but yeah, the reason you see so many GK lists that are similer isn't that all GKs are a buncha netlisting WAACs but rather the varity of units is pretty small, and the one or two bad units are pretty obvious

BrianDavion wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I would gladly put the Dreadknight on the altar of sacrifice if we could get a goddamn balanced codex with options.

yeah, as it is codex GK is REALLY short on options, the reason every GK player takes dreadknights is because the heavy support slot for GKs consists of them, land raiders (which can be taken as dedicated transports and synergize poorly with a Nemisis strike force list anyway) and purgation squads which just straight up suck. when only one of your HS options is any good, course you see a lot of em

I was not aware the Grey Knights codex had some of those issues.

it's a bit light on options. when the new 7th edition codex came out, GW decided to make the codex the Grey Knight Codex. and thus remove inqusitional elements from the book (which, long term I think may be a good idea) but yeah, the reason you see so many GK lists that are similer isn't that all GKs are a buncha netlisting WAACs but rather the varity of units is pretty small, and the one or two bad units are pretty obvious

I thought the psychic phase and access to powers is what gave the grey knights their kick or mitigated any issues they had.

That would be the case if they weren't all locked to Santic Daemonology, bar the Independent Characters

 IHateNids wrote:
That would be the case if they weren't all locked to Santic Daemonology, bar the Independent Characters

They don't to draw from any of the regular Imperial psychic powers ?

The Libby and Bro-Caps gets access to everything except Malefic and Biomancy. Everyone else has pre-determined powers.

Hey, Sanctic is awesome. It only makes just barely makes us middle of the road, but it has some excellent synergies with the Detachment.

Well I would hope its awesome for us, we're the only one who can use it without periling a sixth of the time.

I think its a lot more than 1/6th of the time for non-GKs to use Daemonology.

Its 1/6 of the time if they use only 2 dice to cast a power. But you'll want to toss 3-4 dice to reliably cast most of the powers. Thats putting it up in the 30-50% range.

So looking at the MCs, is it ever possible for them to explode when they loose the last wound or does that only apply to vehicles ?

No.

 Envihon wrote:
The one problem though is the Dreadknights are the work horses of the Grey Knight codex right now. To nerf the Dreadknight would deal a serious blow to the codex as a whole and you would only see people taking Grey Knights for cheap Terminators.

As much as I want to disagree with this, I can't. The Dreadknight really is a big crutch for the army, and I've yet to see a GK list run without at least one of these guys.

It's unfortunate because when you compare a base Dreadknight to a Dreadnought, they're basically the same cost, but the Dreadknight is so drastically superior it's painful, and it really makes Dreadnoughts rather pointless as a whole in the codex, and the Dreadknight really is absurdly overcapable for what it costs, and just gets better with upgrades. It's just that the rest of the army relies so much on it that to actually put it where it belongs would cripple the army.

I wonder if they will ever release a Grey Knight's Contemptor variant or if it would be feasible for them to (assuming there is not one already).

You don't see very many walkers that are psykers.

Grey Knights have the worst internal balance due to the major outlier that is the Dreadknight. If that unit were to be removed, then they would have good internal balance as everything else is good, but it all sucks when compared to the Cheese knight.

Wrong.

The DK is the only unit in the 'daemon hunters' book capable of going toe to toe with the most common unit that daemons ever run.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
The one problem though is the Dreadknights are the work horses of the Grey Knight codex right now. To nerf the Dreadknight would deal a serious blow to the codex as a whole and you would only see people taking Grey Knights for cheap Terminators.

As much as I want to disagree with this, I can't. The Dreadknight really is a big crutch for the army, and I've yet to see a GK list run without at least one of these guys.

It's unfortunate because when you compare a base Dreadknight to a Dreadnought, they're basically the same cost, but the Dreadknight is so drastically superior it's painful, and it really makes Dreadnoughts rather pointless as a whole in the codex, and the Dreadknight really is absurdly overcapable for what it costs, and just gets better with upgrades. It's just that the rest of the army relies so much on it that to actually put it where it belongs would cripple the army.

That is a little incorrect. The Dreadknight absolutely must take upgrades to be useful. Sure, its base cost is the same and better than dreadnoughts, but it would still die before doing much useful if it was named.

You have to be spending roughly 250 pts to make dread knights amazing.

225 for the record.

Also, I swear to god why aren't all GK WS5? Or 2 attacks? I will embrace the CC army theme GW seems to be driving us, but PAGK just... don't pull their weight ANYWHERE!

They never really did, except last book as cheap psycannon platforms.

I have long thought that terminators, and all veterans, should beWS and BS 5.

 Quickjager wrote:
225 for the record.

Also, I swear to god why aren't all GK WS5? Or 2 attacks? I will embrace the CC army theme GW seems to be driving us, but PAGK just... don't pull their weight ANYWHERE!

I dunno interceptor squads do alright, and purifers would be great if not for their inability to deepstrike in a army that otherwise is pretty much designed to