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I checked the rule book, I was wrong on Haywire. It does not affect MCs.

But on the issue of poison, how many delivery systems are there for it ? It seems that given the sheer number of poison attacks someone could throw at you, you would eventually fail the number of saves required to keep the MC alive.

Also, when you resolve poison attacks, is it one poison attack for every wound you inflict on the MC or target or is it only one attack ?

Also, are there any psychic powers that work on MCs but not walkers and vehicles ?

The Imperial Answer wrote:
I checked the rule book, I was wrong on Haywire. It does not affect MCs.

But on the issue of poison, how many delivery systems are there for it ? It seems that given the sheer number of poison attacks someone could throw at you, you would eventually fail the number of saves required to keep the MC alive.

Also, when you resolve poison attacks, is it one poison attack for every wound you inflict on the MC or target or is it only one attack ?

Haywire grenades work against MC's as they have a base strength of 1, but you don't roll on the haywire table because well... the haywire rule itself doesn't work. If you somehow drop a T5 MC to T4 using whatever power or ability you could potentially on a 6, but you mayswell just use your S3+.


Poison uses the poison rule to wound rather than its normal S + poison, so it doesn't work like Haywire.

Krak Grenades work, as do melta bombs.

Unless they changed the grenades rule saying you couldn't attack MC's with your grenades.

NauticalKendall wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
I checked the rule book, I was wrong on Haywire. It does not affect MCs.

But on the issue of poison, how many delivery systems are there for it ? It seems that given the sheer number of poison attacks someone could throw at you, you would eventually fail the number of saves required to keep the MC alive.

Also, when you resolve poison attacks, is it one poison attack for every wound you inflict on the MC or target or is it only one attack ?

Haywire grenades work against MC's as they have a base strength of 1, but you don't roll on the haywire table because well... the haywire rule itself doesn't work. If you somehow drop a T5 MC to T4 using whatever power or ability you could potentially on a 6, but you mayswell just use your S3+.


Poison uses the poison rule to wound rather than its normal S + poison, so it doesn't work like Haywire.

Krak Grenades work, as do melta bombs.

Unless they changed the grenades rule saying you couldn't attack MC's with your grenades.

Aside from wounding, does poison have any debilitating effects on the target ?

To put it simply, nope.

Well walkers may have a few glaring weaknesses compared to a MCs but it seems they make up for it in capability. A walker can fire all of its weapons during a turn. For some odd reason MCs can only fire two if I am reading this correctly.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Well walkers may have a few glaring weaknesses compared to a MCs but it seems they make up for it in capability. A walker can fire all of its weapons during a turn. For some odd reason MCs can only fire two if I am reading this correctly.

Name a walker with more than two weapons that isn't superheavy.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Well walkers may have a few glaring weaknesses compared to a MCs but it seems they make up for it in capability. A walker can fire all of its weapons during a turn. For some odd reason MCs can only fire two if I am reading this correctly.

Name a walker with more than two weapons that isn't superheavy.

I refer to these examples then.

The Gorkanaut:

-Deffstorm mega-shoota
-Two twin-linked big shootas
-Two rokkit launchas
-Skorcha
-Klaw of Gork

The Morkanaut:

-Two twin-linked big shootas
-Kustom mega-blasta
-Kustom mega-kannon
-Two rokkint launchas
-Klaw of Gork

The Meka-Dread:

-Options for 2x shooting weapons and a third for a "rokkit-bomb rack", all on the same meka-dread meaning 3x shooting weapons.

Forge-Fiend

-May have up to 3x shooting weapons, including 3x ecto-plasma cannons.

The Defiler

- A battle-cannon
- May replace either of its other two arms on the torso with shooting weapons from its war-gear selection, giving it 3x shooting weapons.


I'm not too familiar with the Contemptor Dreadnoughts, but I think they can also have two shooting weapons on each arm and a Cyclone Missle Launcher.

Hahaha good one Imperial Answer!

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Well walkers may have a few glaring weaknesses compared to a MCs but it seems they make up for it in capability. A walker can fire all of its weapons during a turn. For some odd reason MCs can only fire two if I am reading this correctly.

Name a walker with more than two weapons that isn't superheavy.

I refer to these examples then.

The Gorkanaut:

-Deffstorm mega-shoota
-Two twin-linked big shootas
-Two rokkit launchas
-Skorcha
-Klaw of Gork

The Morkanaut:

-Two twin-linked big shootas
-Kustom mega-blasta
-Kustom mega-kannon
-Two rokkint launchas
-Klaw of Gork

The Meka-Dread:

-Options for 2x shooting weapons and a third for a "rokkit-bomb rack", all on the same meka-dread meaning 3x shooting weapons.

Forge-Fiend

-May have up to 3x shooting weapons, including 3x ecto-plasma cannons.

The Defiler

- A battle-cannon
- May replace either of its other two arms on the torso with shooting weapons from its war-gear selection, giving it 3x shooting weapons.


I'm not too familiar with the Contemptor Dreadnoughts, but I think they can also have two shooting weapons on each arm and a Cyclone Missle Launcher.

Yep Comteptor dreads (mortis pattern) do indeed have 2 guns plus either a cyclone or havoc (depending on era), also standard mortis dreads,

 Formosa wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Well walkers may have a few glaring weaknesses compared to a MCs but it seems they make up for it in capability. A walker can fire all of its weapons during a turn. For some odd reason MCs can only fire two if I am reading this correctly.

Name a walker with more than two weapons that isn't superheavy.

I refer to these examples then.

The Gorkanaut:

-Deffstorm mega-shoota
-Two twin-linked big shootas
-Two rokkit launchas
-Skorcha
-Klaw of Gork

The Morkanaut:

-Two twin-linked big shootas
-Kustom mega-blasta
-Kustom mega-kannon
-Two rokkint launchas
-Klaw of Gork

The Meka-Dread:

-Options for 2x shooting weapons and a third for a "rokkit-bomb rack", all on the same meka-dread meaning 3x shooting weapons.

Forge-Fiend

-May have up to 3x shooting weapons, including 3x ecto-plasma cannons.

The Defiler

- A battle-cannon
- May replace either of its other two arms on the torso with shooting weapons from its war-gear selection, giving it 3x shooting weapons.


I'm not too familiar with the Contemptor Dreadnoughts, but I think they can also have two shooting weapons on each arm and a Cyclone Missle Launcher.

Yep Comteptor dreads (mortis pattern) do indeed have 2 guns plus either a cyclone or havoc (depending on era), also standard mortis dreads,

It is worth noting that the Defile still must snap fire its guns after firing the battle cannon

Damage table is a reason why naughts are not used out of casual enviroment. Their durability doesn't scale too well. You got somewhat identical chances to loose a 50 pt kan and a 250 pt naught to a single melta shot. But ork walkers are not used out of casual enviroment anywayz. Cause...they're walkers.

If you put them in a mechanised list with lots of av stuff like trucks or wagons, they don't keep up cause they're slow and thus are wasted.

If you put them in a footslogging list, they're one of a few things with AV and thus die too quickly to the opponent's AT weaponry which would have been wasted if you had just spent this points on more boyz.

There's no fast delivery for them other than outflanking which is restricted to a specific warlord trait and has better uses or deepstriking but it only happens on a 6+.

So, the only way to field them more or less effectively is in combination with even more walkers. So, a dread mob. But it has a problem of fielding...walkers that ain't amazing and won't work too well if the opponent brings some decent AT which everyone brings now cause it's cheap and needed to deal with IK and MC. While MC and IK are better vs such weaponry than walkers.

It's no use that walkers are immune to bolter fire and poisoned weapons. You can field them effectively. Provided that the opponent ain't prepared to deal with walkers AND mc. There's just too many cheap weaponry that's too effective vs regular walkers.

If more armies had access to dedicated anti-MC that doesn't affect vehicles like force weapons and psy-shreik or something, than walkers would be great. Cause there'd be less melta, lazcannons, grav, etc.

 koooaei wrote:
Damage table is a reason why naughts are not used out of casual enviroment. Their durability doesn't scale too well. You got somewhat identical chances to loose a 50 pt kan and a 250 pt naught to a single melta shot. But ork walkers are not used out of casual enviroment anywayz. Cause...they're walkers.

If you put them in a mechanised list with lots of av stuff like trucks or wagons, they don't keep up cause they're slow and thus are wasted.

If you put them in a footslogging list, they're one of a few things with AV and thus die too quickly to the opponent's AT weaponry which would have been wasted if you had just spent this points on more boyz.

There's no fast delivery for them other than outflanking which is restricted to a specific warlord trait and has better uses or deepstriking but it only happens on a 6+.

So, the only way to field them more or less effectively is in combination with even more walkers. So, a dread mob. But it has a problem of fielding...walkers that ain't amazing and won't work too well if the opponent brings some decent AT which everyone brings now cause it's cheap and needed to deal with IK and MC. While MC and IK are better vs such weaponry than walkers.

It's no use that walkers are immune to bolter fire and poisoned weapons. You can field them effectively. Provided that the opponent ain't prepared to deal with walkers AND mc. There's just too many cheap weaponry that's too effective vs regular walkers.

If more armies had access to dedicated anti-MC that doesn't affect vehicles like force weapons and psy-shreik or something, than walkers would be great. Cause there'd be less melta, lazcannons, grav, etc.

Well ideally Melta-weaponry is supposed to kill walkers. Walkers are still vehicles after all and share most of their weaknesses so it might be odd if they weren't vulnerable to melta, las, grav and what have you.

But for a quick comparison (and because I'm unfamiliar with this unit) if you were to take a regular squiggoth and a naut, which one would stand a greater chance of survival ?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Well walkers may have a few glaring weaknesses compared to a MCs but it seems they make up for it in capability. A walker can fire all of its weapons during a turn. For some odd reason MCs can only fire two if I am reading this correctly.

Name a walker with more than two weapons that isn't superheavy.

I refer to these examples then.

The Gorkanaut:

-Deffstorm mega-shoota
-Two twin-linked big shootas
-Two rokkit launchas
-Skorcha
-Klaw of Gork

The Morkanaut:

-Two twin-linked big shootas
-Kustom mega-blasta
-Kustom mega-kannon
-Two rokkint launchas
-Klaw of Gork

The Meka-Dread:

-Options for 2x shooting weapons and a third for a "rokkit-bomb rack", all on the same meka-dread meaning 3x shooting weapons.

Forge-Fiend

-May have up to 3x shooting weapons, including 3x ecto-plasma cannons.

The Defiler

- A battle-cannon
- May replace either of its other two arms on the torso with shooting weapons from its war-gear selection, giving it 3x shooting weapons.


I'm not too familiar with the Contemptor Dreadnoughts, but I think they can also have two shooting weapons on each arm and a Cyclone Missle Launcher.

Yep Comteptor dreads (mortis pattern) do indeed have 2 guns plus either a cyclone or havoc (depending on era), also standard mortis dreads,

It is worth noting that the Defile still must snap fire its guns after firing the battle cannon

yeah defiler and lemen russ are both two examples of units that should be good, somewhat hurt by the rules on ordenance weapons

Is there anything that would force a MC to have to make snap-firing shots ?

Flyers, overwatch, off the top of my head.

Invisibility is another

Can MCs and Walkers both be taken out by things like monolith's portal of exile ? I've seen this take down a dreadknight and various other models, but never a vehicle or walker.

Also do Mind-shackle scarabs function against MCs and Walkers both or only against non-vehical targets ? (And for that matter is it weapons strength or melee strength ?)

MCs yes, as it is a toughness test

Not walkers, because they don't have toughness values

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Is there anything that would force a MC to have to make snap-firing shots ?

firing a battlecanon?

it's a irrelevent issue mind you as no MC has even been equiped with one

 IHateNids wrote:
MCs yes, as it is a toughness test

Not walkers, because they don't have toughness values

Are there any other weapons that affect targets based on toughness ?

The beam things that Wraiths can take. The name of it escapes me, as no-one takes them, so they aren't well known

The Imperial Answer wrote:

But for a quick comparison (and because I'm unfamiliar with this unit) if you were to take a regular squiggoth and a naut, which one would stand a greater chance of survival ?

Squiggoth unless you play vs GK or daemons with ID swords. But squiggoths and naughts have different roles anywayz. Squiggoths are more of a firing base/delivery. Naughts are supposed to be mini-stompas.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Fire Caste outnumbers the Space Marines several times over- which means yes, they have a vast army. They likely outnumber the Eldar, what with their "dying race" status.

GK are better equipped... but there are only, what, a thousand of them for the countless trillions of humanity? I'm not sure comparing the elite of the elite of the elite of humanity to your average Fire Warrior is all that fair- and either way, the Riptide is a better piece of gear than a Dreadknight. I'm not sure anyone, no matter how off their rocker, is going to come here and say the Dreadknight is a superior machine to the XV-104.

Every Fire Warrior has a pulse rifle or carbine (depending on open or close-in fighting). Humanity can't even afford to give bolters to all of its ground troops, and bolters suck in every way compared to a pulse rifle.

Carapace armor isn't standard for IG- the flak jacket is. Looking at the new Codex, it seems that there's no longer an option (I swear there was in 5th, but could be wrong) to upgrade standard Guard or Vets to Carapace armor.

The armor the AM gives to its most elite warriors is standard-issue for Tau troops. Not the elite- Joe Fire Warrior has it.

If it was somehow decided by the Imperium that every single loyal space marine had to be killed by the Imperial Guard, they could literally kill them with the bodies of guardsmen. Sending so many waves of totally unarmed (and unarmored) guardsmen at them that that marines drown in blood or are overrun my naked, unarmed dudes, and subsequently torn apart.

This wouldn't much of a dent in the Imperial Guard's numbers either. There are less marines than their are worlds in the Imperium, yet each world in the Imperium gives up millions of Guardsmen in tithe.

So, basically, the Guard could wipe out the Tau Empire by shooting themselves out of torpedo tubes and nakedly bum-rushing the firing-line if they were so inclined, but the Imperium has much more pressing matters.


EDIT: So far as Joe Firewarrior vs the elite of the Imperial Guard goes, you're right. Joe the Cannon-fodder Firewarrior does have a much better weapon and better armor standard than the average guardsmen have.

It's damned unfortunate that the number of elite IG vets equipped with Carapace Armor and wielding Plasma Guns is greater than that of standard firewarriors by more than 100 fold. Ye' basic firewarrior may be equipped upto par with IG elites.. But there are more IG elites than there are basic firewarriors by a significant margin. Quantity is a quality all its own.

There's over a million space marines, and the Imperium only holds a million worlds.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Fire Caste outnumbers the Space Marines several times over- which means yes, they have a vast army. They likely outnumber the Eldar, what with their "dying race" status.

GK are better equipped... but there are only, what, a thousand of them for the countless trillions of humanity? I'm not sure comparing the elite of the elite of the elite of humanity to your average Fire Warrior is all that fair- and either way, the Riptide is a better piece of gear than a Dreadknight. I'm not sure anyone, no matter how off their rocker, is going to come here and say the Dreadknight is a superior machine to the XV-104.

Every Fire Warrior has a pulse rifle or carbine (depending on open or close-in fighting). Humanity can't even afford to give bolters to all of its ground troops, and bolters suck in every way compared to a pulse rifle.

Carapace armor isn't standard for IG- the flak jacket is. Looking at the new Codex, it seems that there's no longer an option (I swear there was in 5th, but could be wrong) to upgrade standard Guard or Vets to Carapace armor.

The armor the AM gives to its most elite warriors is standard-issue for Tau troops. Not the elite- Joe Fire Warrior has it.

If it was somehow decided by the Imperium that every single loyal space marine had to be killed by the Imperial Guard, they could literally kill them with the bodies of guardsmen. Sending so many waves of totally unarmed (and unarmored) guardsmen at them that that marines drown in blood or are overrun my naked, unarmed dudes, and subsequently torn apart.

This wouldn't much of a dent in the Imperial Guard's numbers either. There are less marines than their are worlds in the Imperium, yet each world in the Imperium gives up millions of Guardsmen in tithe.

So, basically, the Guard could wipe out the Tau Empire by shooting themselves out of torpedo tubes and nakedly bum-rushing the firing-line if they were so inclined, but the Imperium has much more pressing matters.


EDIT: So far as Joe Firewarrior vs the elite of the Imperial Guard goes, you're right. Joe the Cannon-fodder Firewarrior does have a much better weapon and better armor standard than the average guardsmen have.

It's damned unfortunate that the number of elite IG vets equipped with Carapace Armor and wielding Plasma Guns is greater than that of standard firewarriors by more than 100 fold. Ye' basic firewarrior may be equipped upto par with IG elites.. But there are more IG elites than there are basic firewarriors by a significant margin. Quantity is a quality all its own.

There's over a million space marines, and the Imperium only holds a million worlds.

IOM IIRC has more then a million words,

BrianDavion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Fire Caste outnumbers the Space Marines several times over- which means yes, they have a vast army. They likely outnumber the Eldar, what with their "dying race" status.

GK are better equipped... but there are only, what, a thousand of them for the countless trillions of humanity? I'm not sure comparing the elite of the elite of the elite of humanity to your average Fire Warrior is all that fair- and either way, the Riptide is a better piece of gear than a Dreadknight. I'm not sure anyone, no matter how off their rocker, is going to come here and say the Dreadknight is a superior machine to the XV-104.

Every Fire Warrior has a pulse rifle or carbine (depending on open or close-in fighting). Humanity can't even afford to give bolters to all of its ground troops, and bolters suck in every way compared to a pulse rifle.

Carapace armor isn't standard for IG- the flak jacket is. Looking at the new Codex, it seems that there's no longer an option (I swear there was in 5th, but could be wrong) to upgrade standard Guard or Vets to Carapace armor.

The armor the AM gives to its most elite warriors is standard-issue for Tau troops. Not the elite- Joe Fire Warrior has it.

If it was somehow decided by the Imperium that every single loyal space marine had to be killed by the Imperial Guard, they could literally kill them with the bodies of guardsmen. Sending so many waves of totally unarmed (and unarmored) guardsmen at them that that marines drown in blood or are overrun my naked, unarmed dudes, and subsequently torn apart.

This wouldn't much of a dent in the Imperial Guard's numbers either. There are less marines than their are worlds in the Imperium, yet each world in the Imperium gives up millions of Guardsmen in tithe.

So, basically, the Guard could wipe out the Tau Empire by shooting themselves out of torpedo tubes and nakedly bum-rushing the firing-line if they were so inclined, but the Imperium has much more pressing matters.


EDIT: So far as Joe Firewarrior vs the elite of the Imperial Guard goes, you're right. Joe the Cannon-fodder Firewarrior does have a much better weapon and better armor standard than the average guardsmen have.

It's damned unfortunate that the number of elite IG vets equipped with Carapace Armor and wielding Plasma Guns is greater than that of standard firewarriors by more than 100 fold. Ye' basic firewarrior may be equipped upto par with IG elites.. But there are more IG elites than there are basic firewarriors by a significant margin. Quantity is a quality all its own.

There's over a million space marines, and the Imperium only holds a million worlds.

IOM IIRC has more then a million words,

The Imperium has consistently been described as having a million worlds at the start of every single Black Library book. The only exceptions are taking exception to something that has been printed literally thousands of times.

 Wyzilla wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Fire Caste outnumbers the Space Marines several times over- which means yes, they have a vast army. They likely outnumber the Eldar, what with their "dying race" status.

GK are better equipped... but there are only, what, a thousand of them for the countless trillions of humanity? I'm not sure comparing the elite of the elite of the elite of humanity to your average Fire Warrior is all that fair- and either way, the Riptide is a better piece of gear than a Dreadknight. I'm not sure anyone, no matter how off their rocker, is going to come here and say the Dreadknight is a superior machine to the XV-104.

Every Fire Warrior has a pulse rifle or carbine (depending on open or close-in fighting). Humanity can't even afford to give bolters to all of its ground troops, and bolters suck in every way compared to a pulse rifle.

Carapace armor isn't standard for IG- the flak jacket is. Looking at the new Codex, it seems that there's no longer an option (I swear there was in 5th, but could be wrong) to upgrade standard Guard or Vets to Carapace armor.

The armor the AM gives to its most elite warriors is standard-issue for Tau troops. Not the elite- Joe Fire Warrior has it.

If it was somehow decided by the Imperium that every single loyal space marine had to be killed by the Imperial Guard, they could literally kill them with the bodies of guardsmen. Sending so many waves of totally unarmed (and unarmored) guardsmen at them that that marines drown in blood or are overrun my naked, unarmed dudes, and subsequently torn apart.

This wouldn't much of a dent in the Imperial Guard's numbers either. There are less marines than their are worlds in the Imperium, yet each world in the Imperium gives up millions of Guardsmen in tithe.

So, basically, the Guard could wipe out the Tau Empire by shooting themselves out of torpedo tubes and nakedly bum-rushing the firing-line if they were so inclined, but the Imperium has much more pressing matters.


EDIT: So far as Joe Firewarrior vs the elite of the Imperial Guard goes, you're right. Joe the Cannon-fodder Firewarrior does have a much better weapon and better armor standard than the average guardsmen have.

It's damned unfortunate that the number of elite IG vets equipped with Carapace Armor and wielding Plasma Guns is greater than that of standard firewarriors by more than 100 fold. Ye' basic firewarrior may be equipped upto par with IG elites.. But there are more IG elites than there are basic firewarriors by a significant margin. Quantity is a quality all its own.

There's over a million space marines, and the Imperium only holds a million worlds.

IOM IIRC has more then a million words,

The Imperium has consistently been described as having a million worlds at the start of every single Black Library book. The only exceptions are taking exception to something that has been printed literally thousands of times.

thing is that's if anything simply a number thrown out as a suitably high number. the real answer is "umm we're not sure, let's start counting 1 2, 3 shoot the tyranids ate that one ohh crap we found 4 more.......... ya know we're not really sure!"
basicly the IoM's size is an estimate at best. it's offical size is pretty much "...... WE'VE LOST COUNT!"

AFAIK, It's hardly cold established fact, but rather fancy speach. Saying "one world for each marine" is more emphasizing the rarity of marines. There are something between 10-60 billion habitable planets in the milky way. If the imperium only has control over 1Mil of them, that's rather sad

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
AFAIK, It's hardly cold established fact, but rather fancy speach. Saying "one world for each marine" is more emphasizing the rarity of marines. There are something between 10-60 billion habitable planets in the milky way. If the imperium only has control over 1Mil of them, that's rather sad

thing is the IoM offically CLAIMS all of those worlds. what they actually control is proably a bit of a differance. but the IoM basicly claims rightful domain over the whole galaxy

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
AFAIK, It's hardly cold established fact, but rather fancy speach. Saying "one world for each marine" is more emphasizing the rarity of marines. There are something between 10-60 billion habitable planets in the milky way. If the imperium only has control over 1Mil of them, that's rather sad

The Imperium can only access worlds with stable warp routes. Otherwise it's suicide trying to obtain or send resources to them.