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The Imperial Answer wrote:
I think the Dreadknight has a personal force-field.

Also the Riptide is an expensive investment according to the Tau Codex. The materials to manufacture them are difficult to acquire and that is one of the reasons the riptide is said to be a "rare commodity" in the codex.

Which is on of the reasons it goes completely against the fluff up to that point. It's only purpose was to make money. I refuse to use them, or even buy them because of that. The tau even had fluff against suits that big. The pains of a tau fluff player .

EDIT: I'M SURROUNDED BY NINJAS! NINJAS, I TELL YOU!

TBH I don't think a dreadknight should be a walker or a MC. Go ahead and give it the stats of a MC (hell they did it with Mephiston in 5th, Centurians are the same concept as well) and the like, but no It shouldnt be a MC. You want AP2 CC, that's what you upgrade your CCW for. I don't play grey knights nor have played them so the rules and upgrades are unfamiliar to me. But I think it should be plain infantry with MC stats. The riptides can be the same for that matter too ( jump infantry like suits). That's my two cents.

Allow me to also add that although I believe the dreadknight should be infantry I also know that it is a little bit more unique than that, so more special rules would be associated with the model; HOW and Relentless come to mind.

Actually, I like that. It would get rid of the bonuses they get from doing just that. However, they should be given some rule that they can still be attacked with grenades in CC.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
I think the Dreadknight has a personal force-field.

Also the Riptide is an expensive investment according to the Tau Codex. The materials to manufacture them are difficult to acquire and that is one of the reasons the riptide is said to be a "rare commodity" in the codex.

Which is on of the reasons it goes completely against the fluff up to that point. It's only purpose was to make money. I refuse to use them, or even buy them because of that. The tau even had fluff against suits that big. The pains of a tau fluff player .

EDIT: I'M SURROUNDED BY NINJAS! NINJAS, I TELL YOU!

Lore wise a bigger battlesuit was the next step anyway as odd as they seem. The famed Commander Purtide even lauded the idea out loud. Battlesuit technology is nice, but the smaller variants have their limits and there are only so many platforms to mount dangerous unstable weaponry on while still maintaining mobility. From what the lore indicates, the technology that allows the riptide to be possible cannot be put on smaller battlesuits and endangers anyone standing near it should it malfunction. Also the bigger riptide has better odds of survival if it were shot by say, a Stompa's deff cannon or a baneblade cannon than a smaller variant which would be minced outright. It is also still mobile enough to escape should these threats get close enough (as few things would survive being tanked shocked by a baneblade or meeting a stompa in close combat.). Its also a nice investment because it can augment a cadre with the power of a crisis team without having to have said crisis team, thus allowing them to project their power further without risking as many lives.

But for the non-lore reason, sure big kits fetch a hefty price. And GW knows how its fan base loves their walkers and walking constructs.

Also I wonder what the lore explanation for their ground super-heavy is going to be when it comes out.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
I think the Dreadknight has a personal force-field.

Also the Riptide is an expensive investment according to the Tau Codex. The materials to manufacture them are difficult to acquire and that is one of the reasons the riptide is said to be a "rare commodity" in the codex.

Which is on of the reasons it goes completely against the fluff up to that point. It's only purpose was to make money. I refuse to use them, or even buy them because of that. The tau even had fluff against suits that big. The pains of a tau fluff player .

EDIT: I'M SURROUNDED BY NINJAS! NINJAS, I TELL YOU!

Lore wise a bigger battlesuit was the next step anyway as odd as they seem. The famed Commander Purtide even lauded the idea out loud. Battlesuit technology is nice, but the smaller variants have their limits and there are only so many platforms to mount dangerous unstable weaponry on while still maintaining mobility. From what the lore indicates, the technology that allows the riptide to be possible cannot be put on smaller battlesuits and endangers anyone standing near it should it malfunction. Also the bigger riptide has better odds of survival if it were shot by say, a Stompa's deff cannon or a baneblade cannon than a smaller variant which would be minced outright.

But for the non-lore reason, sure big kits fetch a hefty price. And GW knows how its fan base loves their walkers and walking constructs.

Also I wonder what the lore explanation for their ground super-heavy is going to be when it comes out.

As far as I know, that fluff didn't appear until this edition, but ah well. A superheavy however is going to be much harder to explain. The earth caste dismiss imperial titans as a waste of recorces (AFAIK, they have never come up agiants eldar ones). The riptide is acceptable, but barely.

I'm also really irritated that it is XV10, leaving no room for sizes inbetween. There is definitly a suit size that could be between the XV9 and XV10, although I guess that would men getting rid of their joke. As long as they don't make this the size of a reaver but only XV11.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
I think the Dreadknight has a personal force-field.

Also the Riptide is an expensive investment according to the Tau Codex. The materials to manufacture them are difficult to acquire and that is one of the reasons the riptide is said to be a "rare commodity" in the codex.

Which is on of the reasons it goes completely against the fluff up to that point. It's only purpose was to make money. I refuse to use them, or even buy them because of that. The tau even had fluff against suits that big. The pains of a tau fluff player .

EDIT: I'M SURROUNDED BY NINJAS! NINJAS, I TELL YOU!

Lore wise a bigger battlesuit was the next step anyway as odd as they seem. The famed Commander Purtide even lauded the idea out loud. Battlesuit technology is nice, but the smaller variants have their limits and there are only so many platforms to mount dangerous unstable weaponry on while still maintaining mobility. From what the lore indicates, the technology that allows the riptide to be possible cannot be put on smaller battlesuits and endangers anyone standing near it should it malfunction. Also the bigger riptide has better odds of survival if it were shot by say, a Stompa's deff cannon or a baneblade cannon than a smaller variant which would be minced outright.

But for the non-lore reason, sure big kits fetch a hefty price. And GW knows how its fan base loves their walkers and walking constructs.

Also I wonder what the lore explanation for their ground super-heavy is going to be when it comes out.

As far as I know, that fluff didn't appear until this edition, but ah well. A superheavy however is going to be much harder to explain. The earth caste dismiss imperial titans as a waste of recorces (AFAIK, they have never come up agiants eldar ones). The riptide is acceptable, but barely.

I'm also really irritated that it is XV10, leaving no room for sizes inbetween. There is definitly a suit size that could be between the XV9 and XV10, although I guess that would men getting rid of their joke. As long as they don't make this the size of a reaver but only XV11.

That is true.

But during the invasion of Viorla and the Damocles Gulf, the tau were impressed with the fire-power of their enemies monstrous war-engines. The only Tau equivalent to a Titan is the Manta, which aren't going to be risked in a direct engagement with enemy titans (where Imperial Armor 4 implies they'd be heavily damaged) and do very little good if you don't control airspace or have more pressing targets in space that require you to divert those manta's (like engaging an imperial battleship or Ork Space Hulk.)

The Tau answer of just having anti-superheavy measures (in the form of super-heavy aircraft that can fill multiple roles like the Manta, but mainly the Tigershark) seemed like a better idea than a ground-super-heavy as long as you have air-superiority.

Also I thought that anything taller than the XV-9 would be the riptide's size given the XV9 is bigger than a Broadside.

Well, they have the Tiger Shark AX 1-0 (which is a dedicated anti-titan aircraft). Yeah, the manta is powerful, but is a dropship, not a fighter.

Broadsides and crisis suits are still both xv8 (size level 8), but the riptide is just a bit too big IMO. Might just me. On the other hand, FW better not make this too big and still be an XV11.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Well, they have the Tiger Shark AX 1-0 (which is a dedicated anti-titan aircraft). Yeah, the manta is powerful, but is a dropship, not a fighter.

Broadsides and crisis suits are still both xv8 (size level 8), but the riptide is just a bit too big IMO. Might just me. On the other hand, FW better not make this too big and still be an XV11.

I honestly expect the Tau Super-heavy to look similar to this concept:



(Was in a white-dwarf magazine battlereport as a stand-in for a shadowsword.)

Either that or It will be like the Eldar titans, which have a crew of just one. It mentioned the Tau were making advances in pilot to machine interfacing with Longstrikes XV-02 so in theory they can make a battlesuit titan-sized (Knight size is probably the limit here) that functions like a normal battlesuit (though they mention early proto-types for the riptide were too big and too cumbersome so this would conflict with the tau codex).

I guess the question would be if its purpose would be to counter other super-heavy war-engines (like the tigershark or shadowsword were made to) or project power like other titans and super-heavy vehicals do.

the Tau might frown on super heavies as a waste of resources, but tatical realities might necessitate the development of super heavies all the same. if your ONLY anti-super heavy tools are fliers, that becomes problematic once you engage the enemy on a world where the conditions make fliers a poor prospect. I tend to agree the best idea for a tau super heavy is proably a tank. but realisticly I expect a giant battlesuit.

Keep in mind that super heavies come in all sizes. A Tau SH could easily just be a 2" longer Hammerhead with a bigger gun and 6 hull points.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Like the Riptide, it IS the Tau super heavy, it has the same concept (assuming it was all real of course) behind it.

The only super-heavy tau doctrine will allow is one that flys (atleast till next year when forgeworld finally un-veils what the Tau Super Heavy ground unit they're releasing is going to be).

Also the riptide was conceived as a heavier weapons platform that could stand up to the increasingly hostile warzones the Firecaste was finding. The concept wasn't to build a super-heavy ground unit, which the tau frowned upon as being in-efficient (at the time they still thought like that).

That does raise the question of can a super-heavy power-armor can be built and "worn" in the traditional sense.

pretty much all titans are controlled by a Mind link interface, so I imagine that becomes almost a requirement with super heavy walkers beyond a certin point

Except Ork and perhaps chaos ones. Actually does daemonic possession count as mind link ? Somethings mind is technically running the machine but im not sure if its really comparable to how the imperium and eldar interface with their titans.

Not true. Chaos uses demonic possession or mind link (dreadnoughts). Orks use mind links. It is specified in the fluff repeatedly, hence the reason pain boyz and big meks are required in their creation and the reason that the grots and orks can't ever leave once deposited inside.

As far as a continuation of the endless "who is better" discussion, Imperial stormtroopers, of whom there are likely as many as fire warriors, are equipped wit hitems at least parallel to those FIre Warriors. The Imperium has a different doctrine, not a lack of ability.

Similarly, there is nothing objectively better about MC or vehicles. GW doesn't see one as better than the other. The decision seems based on the preexisting rules and the weight of years. Dreadnoughts have been vehicles, so they remain vehicles. Newer editions have a tendency to be represented more variably. Dread Knights as walkers lack a real role due to the existence of dreadnoughts in the same list and Ward flipped them to MC. Applying a MC rule makes a model more survivable against anti-vehicle threats but only due to crunch. It isn't a question of fluff.

 PhillyT wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Like the Riptide, it IS the Tau super heavy, it has the same concept (assuming it was all real of course) behind it.

The only super-heavy tau doctrine will allow is one that flys (atleast till next year when forgeworld finally un-veils what the Tau Super Heavy ground unit they're releasing is going to be).

Also the riptide was conceived as a heavier weapons platform that could stand up to the increasingly hostile warzones the Firecaste was finding. The concept wasn't to build a super-heavy ground unit, which the tau frowned upon as being in-efficient (at the time they still thought like that).

That does raise the question of can a super-heavy power-armor can be built and "worn" in the traditional sense.

pretty much all titans are controlled by a Mind link interface, so I imagine that becomes almost a requirement with super heavy walkers beyond a certin point

Except Ork and perhaps chaos ones. Actually does daemonic possession count as mind link ? Somethings mind is technically running the machine but im not sure if its really comparable to how the imperium and eldar interface with their titans.

Not true. Chaos uses demonic possession or mind link (dreadnoughts). Orks use mind links. It is specified in the fluff repeatedly, hence the reason pain boyz and big meks are required in their creation and the reason that the grots and orks can't ever leave once deposited inside.

As far as a continuation of the endless "who is better" discussion, Imperial stormtroopers, of whom there are likely as many as fire warriors, are equipped wit hitems at least parallel to those FIre Warriors. The Imperium has a different doctrine, not a lack of ability.

Similarly, there is nothing objectively better about MC or vehicles. GW doesn't see one as better than the other. The decision seems based on the preexisting rules and the weight of years. Dreadnoughts have been vehicles, so they remain vehicles. Newer editions have a tendency to be represented more variably. Dread Knights as walkers lack a real role due to the existence of dreadnoughts in the same list and Ward flipped them to MC. Applying a MC rule makes a model more survivable against anti-vehicle threats but only due to crunch. It isn't a question of fluff.

Its also been specified repeatedly in the lore that ork dreadnoughts can be controlled by buttons and levers if the mek in charge wants something different than the usual method of wiring the ork or grot in. In-fact in the Kastorel-Novem book the entry for dreads and kans mentions:

"There are of course Deff Dreads built not using the traditional 'surgikal method" and instead mastered by a convoluted series of gears, armatures and large buttons inside the kontrol kan. While far more prone to going wrong, there are advantages for a Mekboy wishing to retain the use of their legs and not see the rest of their lives through a small vision grill!"

Correct, but in this case, the point remains that orks have and use mind linking technology.

They include that to give variety if the player choses to go that route. But it is important for those who think otherwise to understand Orks have mindlinking technology when they want to use it.

And on the issue of dreads, is there anything suggesting the Dreadknight has anything in common with normal dreadnought construction given it has "dread" in the name or is the "dread" part just for intimidation ?

Some similar components, but they are built differently.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Daemon technology outstrips and outperforms a lot of the mortal races. It just seems more primitive because that's the form it takes if it can even be called technology.

As for the Tau and Greyknight technology is only good because those factions all have minuscule numbers and don't have to worry about the logistics of out-fitting sprawling, vast armies. Meanwhile the Guard and Orks are without number so not everyone is going to have the best technology. The Imperium doesn't have the resources for that and Orks go for the simplest solution first and work their way up. (fists, then choppa then something bigger).

Also, the soul grinder has too many legs to be considered a MC. Its meant to share characteristics with its Defiler and Brass Scorpion counterparts.

But just for reference, which did GW introduce first. The Defiler or Soul Grinder ?

The Tau have a vast army that is all-around well-armed and armored. Grey Knights, sure... but the Tau just have a better all-around tech base. Pulse rifles are just as common as lasguns.Their version of carapace armor is standard-issue.

None of those sstatements are true.

Tau have a vast army: by today's standards sure, by 40k standards, not even remotely.
Tau have an all round better tech base: by this you mean purely low level fire warrior, they are out teched in almost every way by gk, read my previous post on the matter.
Pulse rifle are just as common as lasguns: are you serious? There are enough lasguns to outnumber the whole tau race several times over. Billions or even trillions.
Carapace armour is standarnd equipment: it is for guard too, millions upon millions of guard wear it, more I'd wager than the entire tau military combined.

The Fire Caste outnumbers the Space Marines several times over- which means yes, they have a vast army. They likely outnumber the Eldar, what with their "dying race" status.

GK are better equipped... but there are only, what, a thousand of them for the countless trillions of humanity? I'm not sure comparing the elite of the elite of the elite of humanity to your average Fire Warrior is all that fair- and either way, the Riptide is a better piece of gear than a Dreadknight. I'm not sure anyone, no matter how off their rocker, is going to come here and say the Dreadknight is a superior machine to the XV-104.

Every Fire Warrior has a pulse rifle or carbine (depending on open or close-in fighting). Humanity can't even afford to give bolters to all of its ground troops, and bolters suck in every way compared to a pulse rifle.

Carapace armor isn't standard for IG- the flak jacket is. Looking at the new Codex, it seems that there's no longer an option (I swear there was in 5th, but could be wrong) to upgrade standard Guard or Vets to Carapace armor.

The armor the AM gives to its most elite warriors is standard-issue for Tau troops. Not the elite- Joe Fire Warrior has it.

Ok I will address each point.

"fire caste outnumber the space marines" So a few million? hundred million? lets call it a billion to be generous, that makes them a tiny army in 40k, barely even an army in 40k, but were talking fluff not game mechanics here, and Sadly Eldar have been retconned to no longer be millions, at iyandan "billions" died, hate that part of that book but that's what it is, so there are billions of elder about now... stupid it is.

"greyknights are better equipped" Yes, I was only continuing your comparison, if that was not intended fair enough.
As to the tide and the knight, yes the knight is the bearer of a hell of a lot more advanced equipement, ammo that can suck out your soul, psycho crytaline weapons that do the same, massively advanced and smaller armour tech that the tau have not made yet outside of a single upgrade and giant riptides, so yeah your right, no one would compare the 2 and be taken seriously.


"Every Fire Warrior has a pulse rifle" Had you read my previous posts on the subject you would not have stated this, the lasgun is a lot more advanced than the mini plasma rifle, fireing light at high enough intensity through an atmosphere and have it rugged enough to take a massive beating and recharge from most any power source including fire, and be able to mass produce it are simply amazing.
to use your logic an m1 is more advanced than an m4, as it has longer range and is more powerful.

Carapace armour is standard issue for
Kasrkin
storm troopers
arbites
guard regiments (remember fluff not TT)
Inq storm troopers
Scions
Command units
combine all these from all over the imperium and you have a higher pop that the tau have people

I think it mentions that the tau plasma rifle has longer range and is more powerful than the lasgun. The Lasgun, however, is more durable and fires a lot faster and is far easier to use and maintain as its power cells can even be charged in the sun. However there might be some patterns of lasgun that compete with the pulse rifle in range and power since no two function exactly the same given they can come from different forgeworlds. The hotshot lasgun that stormtroopers and veterans prefer seems like it could match a pulse rifle.

Also how exactly is a Dreadknight operated ?

No Lasguns can match the Pulse Rifle in range and hitting power, although some, such as the Hotshot, do have greater penetrating power (AP3)

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Well, they have the Tiger Shark AX 1-0 (which is a dedicated anti-titan aircraft). Yeah, the manta is powerful, but is a dropship, not a fighter.

Broadsides and crisis suits are still both xv8 (size level 8), but the riptide is just a bit too big IMO. Might just me. On the other hand, FW better not make this too big and still be an XV11.

I honestly expect the Tau Super-heavy to look similar to this concept:



(Was in a white-dwarf magazine battlereport as a stand-in for a shadowsword.)

Either that or It will be like the Eldar titans, which have a crew of just one. It mentioned the Tau were making advances in pilot to machine interfacing with Longstrikes XV-02 so in theory they can make a battlesuit titan-sized (Knight size is probably the limit here) that functions like a normal battlesuit (though they mention early proto-types for the riptide were too big and too cumbersome so this would conflict with the tau codex).

I guess the question would be if its purpose would be to counter other super-heavy war-engines (like the tigershark or shadowsword) or project power like other titans and super-heavy vehicals do.

That pic made me laugh a bit..I made a stab at making a Tau super heavy a few years ago...


Seems great minds think alike

anyway yes I am tired of superheavy walkers..we need some skimmers and other craft..just to break up the pattern.

Yours is much cooler

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Well, they have the Tiger Shark AX 1-0 (which is a dedicated anti-titan aircraft). Yeah, the manta is powerful, but is a dropship, not a fighter.

Broadsides and crisis suits are still both xv8 (size level 8), but the riptide is just a bit too big IMO. Might just me. On the other hand, FW better not make this too big and still be an XV11.

I honestly expect the Tau Super-heavy to look similar to this concept:



(Was in a white-dwarf magazine battlereport as a stand-in for a shadowsword.)

Either that or It will be like the Eldar titans, which have a crew of just one. It mentioned the Tau were making advances in pilot to machine interfacing with Longstrikes XV-02 so in theory they can make a battlesuit titan-sized (Knight size is probably the limit here) that functions like a normal battlesuit (though they mention early proto-types for the riptide were too big and too cumbersome so this would conflict with the tau codex).

I guess the question would be if its purpose would be to counter other super-heavy war-engines (like the tigershark or shadowsword) or project power like other titans and super-heavy vehicals do.

That pic made me laugh a bit..I made a stab at making a Tau super heavy a few years ago...


Seems great minds think alike

anyway yes I am tired of superheavy walkers..we need some skimmers and other craft..just to break up the pattern.

If it turns out it is a super-heavy skimmer or tank in the works, congratulations on already having one built ahead of time.

Since the Tau believe in innovation, a super-heavy skimmer would be right up their alley. It would probably be a lot safer as well considering their current biggest battlesuit (the riptide) had early prototypes that endangered the planet they stood on according to the lore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IHateNids wrote:
No Lasguns can match the Pulse Rifle in range and hitting power, although some, such as the Hotshot, do have greater penetrating power (AP3)

They can but for the standard lasgun the Tau Codex mentions:

"The arsenal available to the Fire Warriors is formidable, with individuals carrying either a pulse rifle or a pulse carbine. With this advanced armament, Fire Warriors lay down a withering fusillade upon their foes. Their range and hitting power outclasses the standard weapons of every race the Tau have yet encountered."

 IHateNids wrote:
No Lasguns can match the Pulse Rifle in range and hitting power, although some, such as the Hotshot, do have greater penetrating power (AP3)

Completely false. Pulse weapons are stronger than even bolters, and shoot farther. This has been demonstrated multiple times. The lasgun only has a few things better, it's cheaper, very easy to charge and has more shots per energy cell (fluffwise, the pulse rifle and carbine average 50 per pack, and the lasgun seems to usually bee someone from 60-80).


EDIT: (this is assuming you are saying "no, lasguns can" instead of 'no lasguns can"). Only thought of that after I wrote this.

Str3 ap- range 30" rapid fire
or
str3 ap - range 36 heavy 2
or
str6 ap - range 24" heavy 1

Lasguns can and do out range and damage pulse rifles, the tech just isn't given to the guard as a whole.

No offence meant, but I don't really like to use game rules as fluff examples.

Where are you getting those stats from? It looks like you're just making them up.

How about these 'special' pulse rifles?

Str D ap 1 range 72" assault 20

Half of the evidence Tau players use to justify how great tau are is based off crunch though.

It's also a bit peaches vs James and the giant peach. You can't compare heavy weapons to basic. hand held weaponry. In that case we should probably mention the riptides big burst cannon, the pulse submunition rifle, the pulse submunition cannon, and the longshot pulse rifle.


We also have to consider how pulse rifles work. A pulse rifle is the combination of a small plamsa gun and a coil gun. This mean that tau pulse weapons generly have very high effective ranges.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PhillyT wrote:
Half of the evidence Tau players use to justify how great tau are is based off crunch though.

Not mine.

SGTPozy wrote:
Where are you getting those stats from? It looks like you're just making them up.

How about these 'special' pulse rifles?

Str D ap 1 range 72" assault 20

If your not aware of all the facts please do not make up things or be rude, they are solar pattern lasguns, feel free to Google them.

They are issued to just the solar auxilia, so just the forces of segmentum solar, an area of space magnitudes larger than the tau empire and having a massively larger military

Not sure if this has any bearing but in the video games it seems the Lasgun also fires a lot faster than a pulse rifle. This seems to be the case in Fire Warrior and Dawn of War games so is there any basis for this in the lore or is it just interpretative creativity from the developers ?

My mistake its called a lasrifle and colimator