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BrianDavion wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
225 for the record.

Also, I swear to god why aren't all GK WS5? Or 2 attacks? I will embrace the CC army theme GW seems to be driving us, but PAGK just... don't pull their weight ANYWHERE!

I dunno interceptor squads do alright, and purifers would be great if not for their inability to deepstrike in a army that otherwise is pretty much designed to

Yea Interceptors are the only ones I really consistently get my points back on, or grab objective with. Purifiers... I want to like them.

SGTPozy wrote:
Grey Knights have the worst internal balance due to the major outlier that is the Dreadknight. If that unit were to be removed, then they would have good internal balance as everything else is good, but it all sucks when compared to the Cheese knight.

if you remove the dreadknight the internal balance adjust to a more even spread, but it puts the whole codex in the "terrible" category. Our terminators may be cheaper than every one else's but they are no where near as good on the table top. IF we could take the TH SS combo, it might work better, or if one of our heavy weapons actually had significant and reliable AT capabilities. But as it stands now, a dread knight is one of the few things in the codex that can reliably deal with Armor and AP 2. Dont get me wrong, I love the direction the new codex is going in and I think the removal of the Inquisition was a good thing, I just feel like our PAGK and TAGK should have more options and capabilities. if you want the purgation squads to be taken instead of DK's give them a real selection of weapons, like a missile launcher or a multi-melta option in addition to the psycannon and incinerator. ID gladly give up the DK for more heavy weapons options and a TH/SS combo for terminators

 Quickjager wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
225 for the record.

Also, I swear to god why aren't all GK WS5? Or 2 attacks? I will embrace the CC army theme GW seems to be driving us, but PAGK just... don't pull their weight ANYWHERE!

I dunno interceptor squads do alright, and purifers would be great if not for their inability to deepstrike in a army that otherwise is pretty much designed to

Yea Interceptors are the only ones I really consistently get my points back on, or grab objective with. Purifiers... I want to like them.

but yeah they just don't synergize particularly well... pity there's no option to upgrade em to terminator armor :(

On the note of walkers, what purpose does the Gorkanaut - Morkanaut serve other than being blown up ? I notice most of the instances of them being discussed outside of the ork codex is them being blown up (much like they are on the table).

Of the other MCs and Walkrs with similiar hull points, I atleast know what their purpose is. The Dread-knight is made to fight Greater Daemons, the Mawloc is a tunneling beast, the Squiggoth transport and infantry support, or a Forgefield - Maulerfiend long range fire-power or a siege-engine.

I cannot determine what the Orkanauts are supposed to do besides being wrecked and exploding violently on the table and in the lore:



(Text in the image is © Games Workshop)

They should have been super heavies, but I've seen them work in an ork walker spam list. The dreadmob iirc.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
The one problem though is the Dreadknights are the work horses of the Grey Knight codex right now. To nerf the Dreadknight would deal a serious blow to the codex as a whole and you would only see people taking Grey Knights for cheap Terminators.

As much as I want to disagree with this, I can't. The Dreadknight really is a big crutch for the army, and I've yet to see a GK list run without at least one of these guys.

It's unfortunate because when you compare a base Dreadknight to a Dreadnought, they're basically the same cost, but the Dreadknight is so drastically superior it's painful, and it really makes Dreadnoughts rather pointless as a whole in the codex, and the Dreadknight really is absurdly overcapable for what it costs, and just gets better with upgrades. It's just that the rest of the army relies so much on it that to actually put it where it belongs would cripple the army.

That is a little incorrect. The Dreadknight absolutely must take upgrades to be useful. Sure, its base cost is the same and better than dreadnoughts, but it would still die before doing much useful if it was named.

You have to be spending roughly 250 pts to make dread knights amazing.

At 130pts it's still pretty amazing for its base stats, particularly in smaller games.

Most of the time i see it it's run 185-225, I don't even think you can get it to 250.

You are correct. Max is 235. Still have hangover from previous book.

as a IG player (i refuse to call them AM) I like the fact they are MC due to Bring it down!

Grey Knights do have one thing else going for them and that is their Librarian HQ. At 140 points, you get a ML 3 Psyker and a Stormbolter making it a nice versatile HQ unit especially if you are taking them with a squad of Terminators. You give the book and get an extra Sanctic power, you have a reliable unit that will do a lot and of course this synergies well if you get the Lore Master Warlord trait from the codex. If you get Sanctuary and something like Cleansing Flame on the Librarian, that unit becomes almost better than a Dreadknight but it isn't the guaranteed unit that the DK is. Also, Gate makes for a useful power too.

That is basically what the GK army has become: A Librarian, one or two squads of Terminators and one or two DKs. That is pretty much what I run and they have become a specialist portion of my army as I take Imperial Fist allies to make up for the short comings of the GK and that slowly, the Imperial Fists are becoming the bulk of my army with me always just having a Nemesis Strike Force of GK to go along with them and my list does pretty well with everything that fits. It is this fact that even if people want to lament about the DK being pure cheese, I don't see it this way and I certainly don't see it as something that totally ruins a game. Is it a good unit? Yes it is. Is it now under priced? Yeah, I will concede that point. 225 points for a fully kitted out DK can be devastating to an opponent but at the same time, I have seen plenty of people use their resources wisely to take the DK in an efficient manner.

This is also coming from someone who doesn't get spooked by Imperial Knights as easily though as well so my opinion here might be slightly jaded but I don't see these units as the boogey men that people have made them out to be, just challenging units that take some careful planning and strategy to take out. To me, the same can be said for Nurgle Bikers, Command squad bikes with storm shields and an apothecary and also Thunderwolf Calvary. Am I a bit daunted when I see these units? Yes but I know they aren't invincible and more than likely cost a lot so if I just need to find a way to deal with them.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
On the note of walkers, what purpose does the Gorkanaut - Morkanaut serve other than being blown up ? I notice most of the instances of them being discussed outside of the ork codex is them being blown up (much like they are on the table).

Of the other MCs and Walkrs with similiar hull points, I atleast know what their purpose is. The Dread-knight is made to fight Greater Daemons, the Mawloc is a tunneling beast, the Squiggoth transport and infantry support, or a Forgefield - Maulerfiend long range fire-power or a siege-engine.

I cannot determine what the Orkanauts are supposed to do besides being wrecked and exploding violently on the table and in the lore:



(Text in the image is © Games Workshop)

That IS the purpose of orks. We kill each other. Our vehicles explode to help us kill each other. It's just they should cost less or cost like IK and be superheavies.

 koooaei wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
On the note of walkers, what purpose does the Gorkanaut - Morkanaut serve other than being blown up ? I notice most of the instances of them being discussed outside of the ork codex is them being blown up (much like they are on the table).

Of the other MCs and Walkrs with similiar hull points, I atleast know what their purpose is. The Dread-knight is made to fight Greater Daemons, the Mawloc is a tunneling beast, the Squiggoth transport and infantry support, or a Forgefield - Maulerfiend long range fire-power or a siege-engine.

I cannot determine what the Orkanauts are supposed to do besides being wrecked and exploding violently on the table and in the lore:



(Text in the image is © Games Workshop)

That IS the purpose of orks. We kill each other. Our vehicles explode to help us kill each other. It's just they should cost less or cost like IK and be superheavies.

I don't mind the exploding but they aren't even depicted as doing anything useful in the process.

Also I don't think they could actually lower the price any. Looking at the Orkanaut's armor, its 13/13/12. The exact same as a Stompa's. I'm not sure they would make a cheap vehicle with AV13 and 12 in the rear.


Also to the question of the Dreadknight, how well do the Grey Knights function without it on the table ?

The Imperial Answer wrote:


Also I don't think they could actually lower the price any. Looking at the Orkanaut's armor, its 13/13/12. The exact same as a Stompa's. I'm not sure they would make a cheap vehicle with AV13 and 12 in the rear.


Also to the question of the Dreadknight, how well do the Grey Knights function without it on the table ?

Well, that's the exact problem. Av13/13/12 and 5 HP don't allow it to be cheap due to being hard to get HP-ed to death. While it's simultaniously too expensive vs ap1-2 weaponry due to the chance of getting blown up.

For example, you have 2 MC. One of which has t6, 3+ armor, 3 wounds and costs 100 pts. Than you have a MC that has t7, 3+ armor, 5 wounds and costs 200 pts. It feels absolutely fine. Now imagine they both can instantly die if the opponent performs a to-wound roll of a 6. Suddenly, your 5 wound 200 pt MC isn't so appealing no more.

Don't get me wrong, walkers are oki overall. They just can't compare with MC considering durability and reliability at all with current damage table and pointing.

Naughts are supposed to function as mini-stompas on tabletop. It's just that they're not superheavies thus are a bit too expensive wor what they can really do in general. It still might be worth it to outflank them using a specific ork formation as this way they mitigate the problem of being slow and can actually make use of their transport capacity to deliver burna boyz or combi-scorcha nobz to make it even harder to remove the threat from your opponent's backlines. And naughts are mandatory for a dreadmob - with 'ere we go they also mitigate the problem of being slow a bit and ensure charges.

And about GK. They don't function too great on their own without Dreadknights. The only ballance-fail 7-th codex in my eyes so far.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
225 for the record.

Also, I swear to god why aren't all GK WS5? Or 2 attacks? I will embrace the CC army theme GW seems to be driving us, but PAGK just... don't pull their weight ANYWHERE!

I dunno interceptor squads do alright, and purifers would be great if not for their inability to deepstrike in a army that otherwise is pretty much designed to

Space Wolf allies fixes the Purifiers' 'problem'.

 koooaei wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:


Also I don't think they could actually lower the price any. Looking at the Orkanaut's armor, its 13/13/12. The exact same as a Stompa's. I'm not sure they would make a cheap vehicle with AV13 and 12 in the rear.


Also to the question of the Dreadknight, how well do the Grey Knights function without it on the table ?

Well, that's the exact problem. Av13/13/12 and 5 HP don't allow it to be cheap due to being hard to get HP-ed to death. While it's simultaniously too expensive vs ap1-2 weaponry due to the chance of getting blown up.

For example, you have 2 MC. One of which has t6, 3+ armor, 3 wounds and costs 100 pts. Than you have a MC that has t7, 3+ armor, 5 wounds and costs 200 pts. It feels absolutely fine. Now imagine they both can instantly die if the opponent performs a to-wound roll of a 6. Suddenly, your 5 wound 200 pt MC isn't so appealing no more.

Don't get me wrong, walkers are oki overall. They just can't compare with MC considering durability and reliability at all with current damage table and pointing.

Naughts are supposed to function as mini-stompas on tabletop. It's just that they're not superheavies thus are a bit too expensive wor what they can really do in general. It still might be worth it to outflank them using a specific ork formation as this way they mitigate the problem of being slow and can actually make use of their transport capacity to deliver burna boyz or combi-scorcha nobz to make it even harder to remove the threat from your opponent's backlines. And naughts are mandatory for a dreadmob - with 'ere we go they also mitigate the problem of being slow a bit and ensure charges.

And about GK. They don't function too great on their own without Dreadknights. The only ballance-fail 7-th codex in my eyes so far.

Actually, aren't Wraithknights T8?

They have the same stats as Wraithlords iirc.

Wraithknights are T8, S10

so Combat pretty much isn't an option at all

I wasn't speaking bout wraithknights. Just some generic MC That i think reperesent the durability levels of deff dreads and naughts respectively. But plese, concentrate on the ID on a 6 problem and not on stats.