I'm talking untainted by the ruinous powers, here..
so i read that the oldest loyal astartes is about 1000 years oud (Dante if i recall)
but i always asumed that a space marine can live forever as their biology keeps them in a prime state until... they die... has this been changed?

As far as I know Astartes can live forever. They just develop problems like missiles to the face throughout their lifetimes.

They're said to live about three times as long as a man on average. Chaplain Cassius, the oldest active Ultramarine, is not yet 400 for example. And he calls his Chapter Master "young Calgar". Some Chapters are famous for having a few much older marines than that, like the Space Wolves and Blood Angels - of which it is said they live longer than other marines.

Long-lived is what has been proven. Immortal is most likely just wishful thinking. Older marines are covered in scars (imperfect healing) and often have prosthetic limbs.
Their bodies accumulate irrepairable damage over the years which means they are bound to eventually fail.

i'm thinking along the lines of a lunar wolf that never really got exposed to the warp like the rest of his legion...
i think it said that the first generation can live forever but as the gene seed became impure, they started developing problems.

The problem is: How long does a man live on average in the year 40.000 AD?

In any case, the oldest non-dreadnought Space Marine is 1000 years old, so I would say Space Marines can live really, really long.
Their problem is that they are constantly on the frontlines of war, which makes their live expectancy relatively short.

I doubt any Marine has had the opportunity to test whether or not they can die from old age. As someone already said, they eventually die of "missile to the face." One could simply argue that Dante is so long lived because of sheer luck in avoiding those missiles.

Even if a Marine could functionally live for thousands upon thousands of years, their mental state would eventually suffer. The brain can only handle so much memory before it fills up and you start getting file corruption and memory leaks, so to speak. While some Chaos Marines have lived and experienced 10,000 years, they do have the power of Chaos augmenting them.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The problem is: How long does a man live on average in the year 40.000 AD?.

Ciaphas Cain lived to the ripe old age of 200 (granted, he had a good medical care, being a hero of the imperium and all). The average hive world citizen probably lives long enough to reproduce a few times.

Do they pension any marines off as being too injured or infirm to be of use?

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The problem is: How long does a man live on average in the year 40.000 AD?

In any case, the oldest non-dreadnought Space Marine is 1000 years old, so I would say Space Marines can live really, really long.
Their problem is that they are constantly on the frontlines of war, which makes their live expectancy relatively short.

Not correct, the Oldest non Dreadnought astartes is 10,000 years old, no chaos involvement, its in the awful awful book "pandorax", Its a dark angel Liby that was one of the original 11/12? grey knights.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The problem is: How long does a man live on average in the year 40.000 AD?

In any case, the oldest non-dreadnought Space Marine is 1000 years old, so I would say Space Marines can live really, really long.
Their problem is that they are constantly on the frontlines of war, which makes their live expectancy relatively short.

The oldest known Marine was a 10,000 year old Salamander from the Horus Heresy who eventually died from atrophy. I also recall there being a 10k year old Dark Angels who had activate his Suis-An coma.

Dante is just the oldest living Astartes as of M41. Although I think there may be a 2k or so old Black Templar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The problem is: How long does a man live on average in the year 40.000 AD?

In any case, the oldest non-dreadnought Space Marine is 1000 years old, so I would say Space Marines can live really, really long.
Their problem is that they are constantly on the frontlines of war, which makes their live expectancy relatively short.

Not correct, the Oldest non Dreadnought astartes is 10,000 years old, no chaos involvement, its in the awful awful book "pandorax", Its a dark angel Liby that was one of the original 11/12? grey knights.

Wait.

Did Zahariel become a freaking Grey Knight?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I doubt any Marine has had the opportunity to test whether or not they can die from old age. As someone already said, they eventually die of "missile to the face." One could simply argue that Dante is so long lived because of sheer luck in avoiding those missiles.

Even if a Marine could functionally live for thousands upon thousands of years, their mental state would eventually suffer. The brain can only handle so much memory before it fills up and you start getting file corruption and memory leaks, so to speak. While some Chaos Marines have lived and experienced 10,000 years, they do have the power of Chaos augmenting them.

Considering they don't die of cancer or brain disease, they obviously regenerate neurons.

This however would mean that they effectively reincarnate after a couple millennia. While you may be biologically immortal, to do so your brain has to regenerate neurons, meaning that you'll slowly lose memories until you remember nothing of your original 1k years of life. So at some point you're effectively a completely different person who only bears physical resemblance to the original, not psychological.

IN Theory forever.
But That has been untested due to their "proffesion"

It depends on your preferred source.

Some say biologically immortal, others say a few centuries.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The oldest known Marine was a 10,000 year old Salamander from the Horus Heresy who eventually died from atrophy.

More accurately: Brother Gravius had become fused to his post over the millennia. There was discussion of moving him, but events on Scoria forced the Salamanders' hands. In the end, Gravius received "the Emperor's Peace through a nerve-serum injection" from Apothecary Fugis. Baring that and the destruction of Scoria, it's uncertain how much longer he would have lived; however, Fugis' own thoughts seem to indicate not long: "By the laws of nature, the ancient Salamander should not still be alive...Gravius was nearing the end of his endurance."

Plus, he would have been closer to 11,000 years old at death - Dropsite Massacre was 006.M31, The Scorian Prophecy was 962.M41, and he was at least in his teens (minimum) at Isstvan.

I'm curious how this would work as well. We have Dante, who is 1000 something and still kicking it, and we got guys apparently like the Mortificators Chapter Master, who is only 300 younger (I don't know what the source is on this one, so take that with a grain of salt).

I always like to assume they are not immortal, but can live probably thousands of years if nothing kills them first

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I doubt any Marine has had the opportunity to test whether or not they can die from old age. As someone already said, they eventually die of "missile to the face." One could simply argue that Dante is so long lived because of sheer luck in avoiding those missiles.

Even if a Marine could functionally live for thousands upon thousands of years, their mental state would eventually suffer. The brain can only handle so much memory before it fills up and you start getting file corruption and memory leaks, so to speak. While some Chaos Marines have lived and experienced 10,000 years, they do have the power of Chaos augmenting them.

In 2nd ed there was a story about a space marine (admittedly chaos) that would have to periodically subject himself to selective mind wipes; deleting old and un-needed memories from his mind. Obviously, this could be a trick he had to learn through necessity (some HH chaos veterans are ancient), but perhaps it is an ability all marines are capable of learning to mitigate the continuous assimilation of new knowledge/experience throughout their potentially enormous lives.

Its up to your own interpretation really. There is evidence that Astartes are immortal, and there is evidence that they are not. So you just kind of pick the one you like and go with it.

If you decide that you prefer them to be mortal, then its still tough to narrow down exactly how long they should live. Dante is over 1000 years old, but it is explicitly stated that Blood Angels have longer lifespans than other Astartes. But then you have the Space Wolf Ulrik who is estimated to be between 750-1000 years old.

I can't remember which codex I read it in but I thought Dante was around 1200years old he is the oldest serving Space Marine. Blood Angels do have an unusual prolonged life span for an Astartes

Phoowie beaten to it.

 Carlson793 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
The oldest known Marine was a 10,000 year old Salamander from the Horus Heresy who eventually died from atrophy.

More accurately: Brother Gravius had become fused to his post over the millennia. There was discussion of moving him, but events on Scoria forced the Salamanders' hands. In the end, Gravius received "the Emperor's Peace through a nerve-serum injection" from Apothecary Fugis. Baring that and the destruction of Scoria, it's uncertain how much longer he would have lived; however, Fugis' own thoughts seem to indicate not long: "By the laws of nature, the ancient Salamander should not still be alive...Gravius was nearing the end of his endurance."

Plus, he would have been closer to 11,000 years old at death - Dropsite Massacre was 006.M31, The Scorian Prophecy was 962.M41, and he was at least in his teens (minimum) at Isstvan.

By atrophy.

Even if you're immortal, you still have to exercise. Otherwise your body will turn to mush and you'll experience all sorts of wonderful diseases, demigod or not.


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 Orblivion wrote:
Its up to your own interpretation really. There is evidence that Astartes are immortal, and there is evidence that they are not. So you just kind of pick the one you like and go with it.

If you decide that you prefer them to be mortal, then its still tough to narrow down exactly how long they should live. Dante is over 1000 years old, but it is explicitly stated that Blood Angels have longer lifespans than other Astartes. But then you have the Space Wolf Ulrik who is estimated to be between 750-1000 years old.

There is no "evidence" to counter. We have no record of any Astartes dying of old age, and we know of two that were over 10k years old, and one that was over 2,000. Meaning the claims of Dante being unique in age is false and only remarkable in that he has not died from injury.

They are not immortal. Space marines have a lifespan many times of a normal man and Blood Angels have longer lifespan than other marines. These both clearly indicate a limited lifespan. Sus-an-coma can prolong this lifespan significantly, as it seems to almost completely stop ageing. Based on Chaplain Cassius a marine with UM geneseed would probably have a maximum lifespan of five or six centuries; of course most die much before that in combat.

Dante is apparently in pretty good shape for it. He was made chapter master about 1100 years ago, and was a captain under the previous TWO chapter masters. So obviously he had to build up to being a captain as well, so he's at least 14-1500.

He also had a chaos sorcerer drain a few decades of life off him with some spell, after which he revealed his face to the sorcerer and basically said "do I look like I care about a few decades?" And then axed him.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Carlson793 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
The oldest known Marine was a 10,000 year old Salamander from the Horus Heresy who eventually died from atrophy.

More accurately: Brother Gravius had become fused to his post over the millennia. There was discussion of moving him, but events on Scoria forced the Salamanders' hands. In the end, Gravius received "the Emperor's Peace through a nerve-serum injection" from Apothecary Fugis. Baring that and the destruction of Scoria, it's uncertain how much longer he would have lived; however, Fugis' own thoughts seem to indicate not long: "By the laws of nature, the ancient Salamander should not still be alive...Gravius was nearing the end of his endurance."

Plus, he would have been closer to 11,000 years old at death - Dropsite Massacre was 006.M31, The Scorian Prophecy was 962.M41, and he was at least in his teens (minimum) at Isstvan.

By atrophy.

Even if you're immortal, you still have to exercise. Otherwise your body will turn to mush and you'll experience all sorts of wonderful diseases, demigod or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orblivion wrote:
Its up to your own interpretation really. There is evidence that Astartes are immortal, and there is evidence that they are not. So you just kind of pick the one you like and go with it.

If you decide that you prefer them to be mortal, then its still tough to narrow down exactly how long they should live. Dante is over 1000 years old, but it is explicitly stated that Blood Angels have longer lifespans than other Astartes. But then you have the Space Wolf Ulrik who is estimated to be between 750-1000 years old.

There is no "evidence" to counter. We have no record of any Astartes dying of old age, and we know of two that were over 10k years old, and one that was over 2,000. Meaning the claims of Dante being unique in age is false and only remarkable in that he has not died from injury.

Well you have Lion El Johnson who is lying in a state of rest and another Primarch who is frozen in time so not sure the moving is necessary.

Well to be fair, Primarchs ignore laws of physics and nature in pretty much everything they do.

 Crimson wrote:
They are not immortal. Space marines have a lifespan many times of a normal man and Blood Angels have longer lifespan than other marines. These both clearly indicate a limited lifespan. Sus-an-coma can prolong this lifespan significantly, as it seems to almost completely stop ageing. Based on Chaplain Cassius a marine with UM geneseed would probably have a maximum lifespan of five or six centuries; of course most die much before that in combat.

Except two Astartes who lived for ten thousand years, one who's two thousand years old, and Dante who's 1,200 years old. There's no evidence at all to support any claims of a limited lifespan, and you need actual evidence to defend anything you claim.

Otherwise it's simply "headcanon", IE fan fiction that is not true to the IP established lore. Because there is nothing to support Astartes having a maximum lifespan of a couple centuries. Unless you're arguing they have a cap of a million years, but as we have zero information, we can only conclude that they are indeed biologically immortal for at least ten thousand years or more.

Don't forget that there is a space wolf in a dreadnought that fought during the great crusade and still carries memories of the Emperor walking amongst men.

well we could get a rough estimate if BL ever write about the custodes as they aren't on the front lines while they're not exactly space marines they are the closest equivalent ,
even if they all died in the heresy a new batch would have been created to guard the palace and throne

 Wyzilla wrote:
There's no evidence at all to support any claims of a limited lifespan, and you need actual evidence to defend anything you claim.

The evidence is that they flat out say it. Those exceptions you mention are special cases, achieved either by sus-an membrane or BA gene-seed.

 Crimson wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
There's no evidence at all to support any claims of a limited lifespan, and you need actual evidence to defend anything you claim.

The evidence is that they flat out say it. Those exceptions you mention are special cases, achieved either by sus-an membrane or BA gene-seed.

Oh cool, if they flat out state it then you should have no issues providing citations for when any space marine has died of old age or provide evidence of any of your assertions.

I might have missed something so I'll give youthe benefit of the doubt

If we are told that marines have a lifespan many times that of a normal man*, or that Blood Angels have a longer lifespan than other marines**, then we in fact have been told that marines have limited lifespans.

* 6E BRB
** Probably in every BA codex.

How many times is "many times" though? is it say 5 times? or are we talking 35,754 times?

And what's the standard lifespan of a normal person in 40k?

IIRC, it actually says two or three times, which is a bit low, considering ages of certain marines.

 Wyzilla wrote:
There is no "evidence" to counter. We have no record of any Astartes dying of old age, and we know of two that were over 10k years old, and one that was over 2,000. Meaning the claims of Dante being unique in age is false and only remarkable in that he has not died from injury.

The evidence is that the Blood Angels codex has stated that Blood Angels have unusually long lifespans even for Astartes ever since the Angels of Death codex. That note is still present in the new 7th edition codex. Like many things in 40k, you just pick the one you like the best.

7th edition BA codex, pg 18: "Physically the Blood Angels are among the longest lived of all the Space Marine Chapters. One of the peculiarities of their aberrant gene-seed is that it has vastly increased the lifespan of those who bear it, so it is not unheard of for Blood Angels to live for a thousand years."

We're not just making it up, but if you prefer the version that they are immortal then have it at.

so we have a record of someone in universe saying blood angels live many times longer than normal marines that hasn't changed since second

Copy paste, and has been retconned but GW never bothers to fact check there own fluff, hence we get contradictions all the time.

Just for the record, I don't think space marines are immortal as they die from wounds etc.

but what we have is old fluff that hasn't changed and has been directly contradicted several times, 1000 years + may be unusual for modern astartes but clearly its not for the originals, as both warp related and non warp related marines have lived 10k years+, if this was myth busters then the space marine that only lives 500 years and dies of old age is busted.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
There is no "evidence" to counter. We have no record of any Astartes dying of old age, and we know of two that were over 10k years old, and one that was over 2,000. Meaning the claims of Dante being unique in age is false and only remarkable in that he has not died from injury.

The evidence is that the Blood Angels codex has stated that Blood Angels have unusually long lifespans even for Astartes ever since the Angels of Death codex. That note is still present in the new 7th edition codex. Like many things in 40k, you just pick the one you like the best.

7th edition BA codex, pg 18: "Physically the Blood Angels are among the longest lived of all the Space Marine Chapters. One of the peculiarities of their aberrant gene-seed is that it has vastly increased the lifespan of those who bear it, so it is not unheard of for Blood Angels to live for a thousand years."

We're not just making it up, but if you prefer the version that they are immortal then have it at.

But that does not make sense.

How can they be unusually long-lived if no Marine dies of age anyway?

Maybe Blood Angels are luckier than most Marines? I would say 4-500 years old being the upper limit myself with all the information given. 300 is probably the average.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
There is no "evidence" to counter. We have no record of any Astartes dying of old age, and we know of two that were over 10k years old, and one that was over 2,000. Meaning the claims of Dante being unique in age is false and only remarkable in that he has not died from injury.

The evidence is that the Blood Angels codex has stated that Blood Angels have unusually long lifespans even for Astartes ever since the Angels of Death codex. That note is still present in the new 7th edition codex. Like many things in 40k, you just pick the one you like the best.

7th edition BA codex, pg 18: "Physically the Blood Angels are among the longest lived of all the Space Marine Chapters. One of the peculiarities of their aberrant gene-seed is that it has vastly increased the lifespan of those who bear it, so it is not unheard of for Blood Angels to live for a thousand years."

We're not just making it up, but if you prefer the version that they are immortal then have it at.

But that does not make sense.

How can they be unusually long-lived if no Marine dies of age anyway?

Because maybe they can die of old age, simply that most Marines don't ever get the chance.

Sure, there's one or two outliers that live to exceptional ages, Blood Angels or otherwise... but these are a handful of people out of the literally-millions of Space Marines that don't make it to the first century.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Maybe Blood Angels are luckier than most Marines? I would say 4-500 years old being the upper limit myself with all the information given. 300 is probably the average.

For average numbers I would have to agree with 500-600 being an average older space marine and around 300 as an average for a regular SM due to a SM standard occupational hazards of being a SM. Like a missile or melta gun to the face, or a las-gun in the eye.

Don't forget there is also Logan Grimnar with his rumored age of being around 1000 years old. Also as it is about non-dreadknoght marines Bejorn is out of the question.

Though I think reasonably 1000 years may not be out of the question for how long a SM can live.

 fox-light713 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Maybe Blood Angels are luckier than most Marines? I would say 4-500 years old being the upper limit myself with all the information given. 300 is probably the average.

For average numbers I would have to agree with 500-600 being an average older space marine and around 300 as an average for a regular SM due to a SM standard occupational hazards of being a SM. Like a missile or melta gun to the face, or a las-gun in the eye.

Don't forget there is also Logan Grimnar with his rumored age of being around 1000 years old. Also as it is about non-dreadknoght marines Bejorn is out of the question.

Though I think reasonably 1000 years may not be out of the question for how long a SM can live.

Grimnar is almost 700 years old.

Figure out how the tech works and you'd have your answer. There's no reason life extension or any sort of biological 'augmentation' along those lines, has to be permanant just from a single treatment or require absolutely no adjustment/amintenance of any kind (and I know there's fluff indicating Astartes need their unusual biologies tweaked and maintained even after they get implanted.)

You could argue, for example, that the supposed Space Marine 'immortality' only lasted as long as they were given the right/correct treatments and biological maintenance to keep their bodies in that optimal state, but that over time various reasons (including mutation of the geneseed, corruption of the techniques and processes involved in creating and maintaining the Astartes into ritual, etc.) they lost the ability to maintain that optimum state. I mean its not even like all chapters neccesarily go about creating their recruits the same way (Blood Angels method vs Space Wolf, for example.) But without more data, its speculative.

If you mean the average lifespan of an imperial citizen, I think it will vary wildly between folks. Factory workers may live till like 20's and die of war/wounds/maltreatment

Aristos or inquisitors that can pay for jeuvnat treatments or some mechanicus magos have clocked in at least 200 yrs+. I vaguely remember some old arch magos at least around 400 yrs in rogue trader

Never heard about a space marine just passed away when not fightibg

 Psienesis wrote:


Because maybe they can die of old age, simply that most Marines don't ever get the chance.

Sure, there's one or two outliers that live to exceptional ages, Blood Angels or otherwise... but these are a handful of people out of the literally-millions of Space Marines that don't make it to the first century.

Not most, all. No Marine has ever died of old age.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Not most, all. No Marine has ever died of old age.

Source?

Edit: You know what, let's save the conjecture-fest for another day.

 Ashiraya wrote:

No Marine has ever been shown, mentioned, described or otherwise implied to have died of old age.

So? Has there ever been an explicit mention of an Ogryn dying of old age? Or a Ratling? Even a normal guardsman? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Ogrns, ratlings etc. Have never been stated as being functionally immortal, space marines have and we have examples of marines that live thousands of years, please provide any non old retconned fluff that supports the 5-600 life span as unless I've missed something (could have happened) then there is no support

 Formosa wrote:
Ogrns, ratlings etc. Have never been stated as being functionally immortal, space marines have and we have examples of marines that live thousands of years, please provide any non old retconned fluff that supports the 5-600 life span as unless I've missed something (could have happened) then there is no support

If you're free to ignore something in a brand new codex just because you think its old and they forgot to retcon it, then it just supports my suggestion that everyone should just go with the version that they prefer. At the end of the day who the hell cares how anyone else chooses to interpret the lore?

 Formosa wrote:
Ogrns, ratlings etc. Have never been stated as being functionally immortal, space marines have and we have examples of marines that live thousands of years, please provide any non old retconned fluff that supports the 5-600 life span as unless I've missed something (could have happened) then there is no support

Cassius is 'old' nearing four hundred. 6E BRB says marines live two or three times as long as a normal man. And of course then there is the Blood Angels, the bit about their longevity once again repeated in their newest codex. Where is your immortality quote from? Horus Rising perhaps? That was in 2006, so definitely older than 6E BRB, and said as a in-character comment by a person with incomplete knowledge (as marines were new then.) Even HH novels have showed marines ageing since then, so I'm sure BL realised their mistake too.

Pandorax this year actually, as already stated by several people several times.
So cassius is old for a space marine, so he lived more than the average 200 years, that makes him old because he is alive and has survived, show me where it states that due to his age he is dieing or infirm.

Blood Angel longevity is 3rd person referring to blood angels living a long time for space marines, again this makes absolutely no reference to how long marines live and from the perspective of the narrative it is a long time. Show me in that reference of the average life span of uninjured space marine during of natural causes.

Space marines do live 2)3 Times the span of a normal man, then die from combat, show me in that reference it referring to the space marines living full spans and living out there lives.

Do we have any examples of immortal Space Marines?

Do we have any backup for the headcanon saying the reason that plenty of CSM have survived since the Heresy is Chaos extending their lives?

We have statements saying it's not the Warp shortening their time ('Veterans of ten millennia of warfare' and similar quotes dot the Black Legion supplement, for example) and 10k+ years is, while not immortal, not far off.

We have supporting evidence yes, but eternal life I myself highly doubt, but from a human perspective they are functionally immortal.

Here's the problem with the fluff, on the one hand we have the codexs saying that marines are old and live x years (human perspective), on the other we have marines that have lived thousands of years un aided by the warp or dreadnought sarchopogi, so when the fluff says "they live only x years" and we have several incidents that they infact live longer, then one can only be interpreted as in universe conjecture and the other is 1st hand or 1st person perspective, then we can only go with the first hand experience.

Humans only live for 50years in real life, apart from all the ones that live longer, that's what it reads like to me.

If you can clarify it then thanks, as I love the fluff of this game and enjoy discussing it.

To me, it seems like Marines can easily live 10k+ years out of combat. Loyalists constantly have to dash from battle to battle to help keep together their Imperium, whereas CSM have an impenetrable safe-zone in the Eye of Terror and can pick their fights, meaning they will never have to sacrifice their lives to defend some shrine or forge world.

Of course, exceptions exist for both sides (Black Templars Grand Marshal Ludoldus has been High Marshal for at least two thousand years) but that is what seems to make most sense. It appears BA gene-seed grants them some quirk of fate, for greater battle-fortune. +1 fate point?

 Ashiraya wrote:
It appears BA gene-seed grants them some quirk of fate, for greater battle-fortune. +1 fate point?

Not to mention Commander Dante artwork suggests he wouldn't be ashamed for his looks among the High Elves in Middle Earth... Eternally young in body and appearance, while SW go grey, hairy and longfanged and UM just go old. No, I'd rather think the few examples going beyond any reasonable count of years are extreme outliers and freaks. That Salamander dying on his post had spent almost all his life in stasis using his extra-special Space Marine physique, after all. A Chaos marine could well get killed and come back from the Warp to fight every time because he's in a time loop.

Hmm... Ludoldus is also a bit of a mystery. The records of the Jerulas Crusade (645.M39) say he's a veteran of the Vinculus Crusade (833.M41). Which would require some serious time travel (ofc possible with the Warp being what it is) or some crappy records keeping, not impossible either if there were two or more Templars named Ludoldus and they kept the change in command secret. Knights did sometimes take their teacher's or liege's name to carry on a Holy Task.

10,000 years is actually rather very, very far off from "immortal". Compared to the age of, say, Sol, it's the mere blink of an eye. Compared to the age of, say, any Necron anywhere, it's ridiculously, laughably short... like, roughly 1/100th of that age.

hence why I said from a human perspective

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
And what's the standard lifespan of a normal person in 40k?

If they're not named in the first chapter of the book, roughly four sentences.

I just recently read all the BA, GK, and SW books back to back, and am currently reading Heroes of the Space Marines because I have no life, so I've got a few lines stuck in my head on the subject. Almost every CSM story mentions something to the effect of time meaning nothing inside the Eye of Terror, so there's your lifespan. Unless you're one of the Thousand Sons, in which case you get to poof in and out of existence as a corrupted soul trapped in empty armor whenever someone with more balls than brains summons you (see: every Space Wolf book ever). The point being that CSM's are not a good reference point. Termies don't count either. You're not "unaffected" if you're just a floating brain inside a stompy-tank. Also throw out anyone who's spent his life sleeping or inside a magic box.

I'm not sure how educated the GW fluffmasters are, but there is a difference between lifespan and life-expectancy. Life expectancy refers to the number of years a person is expected to live, based on the statistical average. Lifespan refers to the maximum number of years that a person can potentially expect to live based on the greatest number of years anyone from the same data set has lived. So, somewhere about 122 years, for us regular squishy ole' humans. Somewhere in the low thousand range for Blood Angels (Dante, pushing 2k, though even he doesn't remember). High hundreds if you're a Space Wolf (Ulrick the Slayer in his 700's). Probably about the same for the other chapters (unless you're a Flesh Tearer or some other poor gene-cursed chapter).

Now, to throw a wrench in the monkeyworks... In the second BA omnibus (whichever book has mutant/demon things trying to eat their way into Sanguinious's sarcophagus), I vaguely remember Dante thinking about the chapter master he replaced, and I'd swear it seemed to imply that the dude croaked of old age. Though I may be wrong. Anyone have the book handy and want to power read it to find that part?

Regarding the note that no marines will have the possibility to die of old age I found a note (might be in the latest BA codex, will have to look it up) of a marine taking out of combat duty and kept alive because of his wisdom. Apparently it was some hideous wound that made him unfit for combat.

I know, with all that tech replacing body parts (iron hands...) and great, dying warriors being put in dreadnoughts it sounds unlikely, but I'm to look it up right away.

space marines are biologically immortal.

Anyone know of any sources that mention the adeptus custodes dying from old age? Obviously they are not identical to marines but close enough to perhaps give us an idea of their life spans. I recall at least one heresy book having a character question how long they can actually live. I seem to recall the character having been a marine for something like 200 years at that point. That seems to show, at least in 30k, that 200 years was definitely not a normal lifespan for an imperial "citizen". So my guess isif or argument sake that a normal human in 40k that lives on a decent planet has a life span under 200 years for sure.

akon4643 wrote:
Anyone know of any sources that mention the adeptus custodes dying from old age? Obviously they are not identical to marines but close enough to perhaps give us an idea of their life spans. I recall at least one heresy book having a character question how long they can actually live. I seem to recall the character having been a marine for something like 200 years at that point. That seems to show, at least in 30k, that 200 years was definitely not a normal lifespan for an imperial "citizen". So my guess isif or argument sake that a normal human in 40k that lives on a decent planet has a life span under 200 years for sure.

There is no recorded instance of either a Custodes or a Space Marine dying of age.

 Crimson wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
There's no evidence at all to support any claims of a limited lifespan, and you need actual evidence to defend anything you claim.

The evidence is that they flat out say it. Those exceptions you mention are special cases, achieved either by sus-an membrane or BA gene-seed.

No, they make a claim. Unless there is any evidence to support such a claim, then it's voided. "Flat out stating it" means nothing when there's multiple sources of evidence to the contrary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
There is no "evidence" to counter. We have no record of any Astartes dying of old age, and we know of two that were over 10k years old, and one that was over 2,000. Meaning the claims of Dante being unique in age is false and only remarkable in that he has not died from injury.

The evidence is that the Blood Angels codex has stated that Blood Angels have unusually long lifespans even for Astartes ever since the Angels of Death codex. That note is still present in the new 7th edition codex. Like many things in 40k, you just pick the one you like the best.

7th edition BA codex, pg 18: "Physically the Blood Angels are among the longest lived of all the Space Marine Chapters. One of the peculiarities of their aberrant gene-seed is that it has vastly increased the lifespan of those who bear it, so it is not unheard of for Blood Angels to live for a thousand years."

We're not just making it up, but if you prefer the version that they are immortal then have it at.

There is no evidence to the contrary. There's claims, but there's zero evidence supporting them. We've never seen an Astartes die of old age, and meanwhile we know of a Black Templar over two thousand years old, an two Astartes that were older then ten thousand years.

Then perhaps 11k is their life-span and the BA will live to `8 or 20K.

 Psienesis wrote:
Then perhaps 11k is their life-span and the BA will live to `8 or 20K.

One was in perfect health, the other died due to getting less exercise then Orson Welles.

But there is nothing supporting marines having a fixed age. They're biologically immortal and there's no evidence to the contrary, as we've never seen one die of old age.

Other than the fact that we've not yet seen one live forever, and have a Codex stretching back to the beginning telling us that the Space Vampires live longer than any other Astartes.

Okay, so let me get this straight. You have acid-spitting, power armor and rocket spewing machine guns weilding super soldiers, that fight demons and xenos like it was noody's buisness, and now you want them to be immortal too?

Why?

What purpose does biological immortality even serve when they all die in combat anyways. It does nothing else than makeing a already special snowflake army even more special snowflake like.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Okay, so let me get this straight. You have acid-spitting, power armor and rocket spewing machine guns weilding super soldiers, that fight demons and xenos like it was noody's buisness, and now you want them to be immortal too?

Why?

What purpose does biological immortality even serve when they all die in combat anyways. It does nothing else than makeing a already special snowflake army even more special snowflake like.

So they can keep fighting. It's why the Emperor discontinued the Thunder Warriors, who were better soldiers but had shorter lives.

They were designed to guard the finished Imperium, no?

Biological immortality would help with that.

 Ashiraya wrote:
They were designed to guard the finished Imperium, no?

Biological immortality would help with that.

Yep. The Emperor wanted an army that could be active for centuries on end and could protect the empire's borders. Old age tends to get in the way.

Casius is the oldest active Ultramarine and he's not even four hundred yet, then there's the Grey Knight Librarians who retire to to become actual Librarians after they grow to old and frail for campaigning. The stories of Space Marines lasting for thousands of years like Epimetheus and Abdaziel Magron are accomplished with sus-an membrane which essentially halts all biological function.
I think the misconception that Marines are immortal comes from the Horus Heresy Marines repeating it ad nauseam, but they had only been around for a few hundred years and even at that Marines had already started to show signs of advancing age like Qruze.

Even in the Horus Heresy series they establish that Marines aren't immortal, and that makes Fabulous Bill crazy.

Angel Exterminatus wrote:‘Why?’ gurgled Cassander, flexing the bones of his mutilated hand as it throbbed painfully.
‘Because we are led to believe we are perfect creations,’ said Fabius, coughing a wad of black phlegm and holding his chest. ‘but nothing could be further from the truth. We are fragments of a greater whole, pale reflections of something incredible. Each of the Legions’ genetic structure contains a piece of that perfection, and I would know every secret of the Emperor’s workings.’
‘Why?’ repeated Cassander, knowing it was the most important question.
‘Because I don’t want to die,’ said Fabius, opening his robes to reveal two suppurating wounds crusted with tarry deposits. Sword wounds, but ones that hadn’t healed. ‘The Emperor’s soldiers who came before us, the Thunder Warriors, their gene-code carried the seeds of their own destruction. And the gene-boosted savages before them? They were fortunate to live as long as they did before their hyper-metabolism consumed them. The primarchs think their warriors are immortal, but they are wrong. We are as mortal as any living thing, we just take longer to die. I would not have it so.’

Then there's this little gem, what everyone's been asking for, something showing a Space Marine dying of old age (in an admittedly extreme circumstance but still).

The Iron Within wrote:Tavarre died of old age in the cruiser infirmary, just before reaching Lesser Damantyne.

Animus wrote:
Casius is the oldest active Ultramarine and he's not even four hundred yet, then there's the Grey Knight Librarians who retire to to become actual Librarians after they grow to old and frail for campaigning. The stories of Space Marines lasting for thousands of years like Epimetheus and Abdaziel Magron are accomplished with sus-an membrane which essentially halts all biological function.
I think the misconception that Marines are immortal comes from the Horus Heresy Marines repeating it ad nauseam, but they had only been around for a few hundred years and even at that Marines had already started to show signs of advancing age like Qruze.

Even in the Horus Heresy series they establish that Marines aren't immortal, and that makes Fabulous Bill crazy.

Angel Exterminatus wrote:‘Why?’ gurgled Cassander, flexing the bones of his mutilated hand as it throbbed painfully.
‘Because we are led to believe we are perfect creations,’ said Fabius, coughing a wad of black phlegm and holding his chest. ‘but nothing could be further from the truth. We are fragments of a greater whole, pale reflections of something incredible. Each of the Legions’ genetic structure contains a piece of that perfection, and I would know every secret of the Emperor’s workings.’
‘Why?’ repeated Cassander, knowing it was the most important question.
‘Because I don’t want to die,’ said Fabius, opening his robes to reveal two suppurating wounds crusted with tarry deposits. Sword wounds, but ones that hadn’t healed. ‘The Emperor’s soldiers who came before us, the Thunder Warriors, their gene-code carried the seeds of their own destruction. And the gene-boosted savages before them? They were fortunate to live as long as they did before their hyper-metabolism consumed them. The primarchs think their warriors are immortal, but they are wrong. We are as mortal as any living thing, we just take longer to die. I would not have it so.’

Then there's this little gem, what everyone's been asking for, something showing a Space Marine dying of old age (in an admittedly extreme circumstance but still).

The Iron Within wrote:Tavarre died of old age in the cruiser infirmary, just before reaching Lesser Damantyne.

Thats why many people don't trust the black library XD

There was a Captain of the Luna Wolves in the first HH novel -I can't remember his name- but he was many centures old, and becoming decrepid and slightly senile (though still able to hold his own in battle, as he proved). Nonetheless it was clear he was declining with age...so can only assume that his mind would have failed him, or his body, within another century or 2. Maybe with the kind of extensive prosthetics available to them, they can stave off old age and death, but they're clearly not immortal, not from anything I've read anyway.

 thegreatchimp wrote:
There was a Captain of the Luna Wolves in the first HH novel -I can't remember his name- but he was many centures old, and becoming decrepid and slightly senile (though still able to hold his own in battle, as he proved). Nonetheless it was clear he was declining with age...so can only assume that his mind would have failed him, or his body, within another century or 2. Maybe with the kind of extensive prosthetics available to them, they can stave off old age and death, but they're clearly not immortal, not from anything I've read anyway.

You mean the old wolf? Hahaha no he kick plenty of ass even with his older age and proved to be stronger than many others. Even killing a biologically superior opponent.

He was made fun of.

He was halfheard because he lost his hearing in one ear.

Animus wrote:
Casius is the oldest active Ultramarine and he's not even four hundred yet, then there's the Grey Knight Librarians who retire to to become actual Librarians after they grow to old and frail for campaigning. The stories of Space Marines lasting for thousands of years like Epimetheus and Abdaziel Magron are accomplished with sus-an membrane which essentially halts all biological function.
I think the misconception that Marines are immortal comes from the Horus Heresy Marines repeating it ad nauseam, but they had only been around for a few hundred years and even at that Marines had already started to show signs of advancing age like Qruze.

Even in the Horus Heresy series they establish that Marines aren't immortal, and that makes Fabulous Bill crazy.

Angel Exterminatus wrote:‘Why?’ gurgled Cassander, flexing the bones of his mutilated hand as it throbbed painfully.
‘Because we are led to believe we are perfect creations,’ said Fabius, coughing a wad of black phlegm and holding his chest. ‘but nothing could be further from the truth. We are fragments of a greater whole, pale reflections of something incredible. Each of the Legions’ genetic structure contains a piece of that perfection, and I would know every secret of the Emperor’s workings.’
‘Why?’ repeated Cassander, knowing it was the most important question.
‘Because I don’t want to die,’ said Fabius, opening his robes to reveal two suppurating wounds crusted with tarry deposits. Sword wounds, but ones that hadn’t healed. ‘The Emperor’s soldiers who came before us, the Thunder Warriors, their gene-code carried the seeds of their own destruction. And the gene-boosted savages before them? They were fortunate to live as long as they did before their hyper-metabolism consumed them. The primarchs think their warriors are immortal, but they are wrong. We are as mortal as any living thing, we just take longer to die. I would not have it so.’

Then there's this little gem, what everyone's been asking for, something showing a Space Marine dying of old age (in an admittedly extreme circumstance but still).

The Iron Within wrote:Tavarre died of old age in the cruiser infirmary, just before reaching Lesser Damantyne.

That Iron Warrior didn't die of old age. He died to the Hrud. The Hrud can kill planets. Even if something was biologically immortal, if they were attacked by the Hrud they would start to wither away, as simply being biologically immortal (IE your genes don't decay and kill you), you still need to exercise, produce new cells, eat, etc. The Hrud can age you so fast and rivet you to where you stand that you simply fall over and die. The Hrud could probably even age you to such a point that your atoms decay and fall apart to their half life.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Animus wrote:
Casius is the oldest active Ultramarine and he's not even four hundred yet, then there's the Grey Knight Librarians who retire to to become actual Librarians after they grow to old and frail for campaigning. The stories of Space Marines lasting for thousands of years like Epimetheus and Abdaziel Magron are accomplished with sus-an membrane which essentially halts all biological function.
I think the misconception that Marines are immortal comes from the Horus Heresy Marines repeating it ad nauseam, but they had only been around for a few hundred years and even at that Marines had already started to show signs of advancing age like Qruze.

Even in the Horus Heresy series they establish that Marines aren't immortal, and that makes Fabulous Bill crazy.

Angel Exterminatus wrote:‘Why?’ gurgled Cassander, flexing the bones of his mutilated hand as it throbbed painfully.
‘Because we are led to believe we are perfect creations,’ said Fabius, coughing a wad of black phlegm and holding his chest. ‘but nothing could be further from the truth. We are fragments of a greater whole, pale reflections of something incredible. Each of the Legions’ genetic structure contains a piece of that perfection, and I would know every secret of the Emperor’s workings.’
‘Why?’ repeated Cassander, knowing it was the most important question.
‘Because I don’t want to die,’ said Fabius, opening his robes to reveal two suppurating wounds crusted with tarry deposits. Sword wounds, but ones that hadn’t healed. ‘The Emperor’s soldiers who came before us, the Thunder Warriors, their gene-code carried the seeds of their own destruction. And the gene-boosted savages before them? They were fortunate to live as long as they did before their hyper-metabolism consumed them. The primarchs think their warriors are immortal, but they are wrong. We are as mortal as any living thing, we just take longer to die. I would not have it so.’

Then there's this little gem, what everyone's been asking for, something showing a Space Marine dying of old age (in an admittedly extreme circumstance but still).

The Iron Within wrote:Tavarre died of old age in the cruiser infirmary, just before reaching Lesser Damantyne.

Thats why many people don't trust the black library XD

The Black Library is the only source for supposedly-immortal Space Marines.

 Wyzilla wrote:
That Iron Warrior didn't die of old age. He died to the Hrud. The Hrud can kill planets. Even if something was biologically immortal, if they were attacked by the Hrud they would start to wither away, as simply being biologically immortal (IE your genes don't decay and kill you), you still need to exercise, produce new cells, eat, etc. The Hrud can age you so fast and rivet you to where you stand that you simply fall over and die. The Hrud could probably even age you to such a point that your atoms decay and fall apart to their half life.

It's said quite clearly that he died of old age. The Hrud can do more extreme things but that doesn't mean they always do do those things and didn't in this case.

Animus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
That Iron Warrior didn't die of old age. He died to the Hrud. The Hrud can kill planets. Even if something was biologically immortal, if they were attacked by the Hrud they would start to wither away, as simply being biologically immortal (IE your genes don't decay and kill you), you still need to exercise, produce new cells, eat, etc. The Hrud can age you so fast and rivet you to where you stand that you simply fall over and die. The Hrud could probably even age you to such a point that your atoms decay and fall apart to their half life.

It's said quite clearly that he died of old age. The Hrud can do more extreme things but that doesn't mean they always do do those things and didn't in this case.

Even a biologically immortal individual could die of old age if something that controls entropy were to attack them.

DNA after all, also has a half life.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Animus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
That Iron Warrior didn't die of old age. He died to the Hrud. The Hrud can kill planets. Even if something was biologically immortal, if they were attacked by the Hrud they would start to wither away, as simply being biologically immortal (IE your genes don't decay and kill you), you still need to exercise, produce new cells, eat, etc. The Hrud can age you so fast and rivet you to where you stand that you simply fall over and die. The Hrud could probably even age you to such a point that your atoms decay and fall apart to their half life.

It's said quite clearly that he died of old age. The Hrud can do more extreme things but that doesn't mean they always do do those things and didn't in this case.

Even a biologically immortal individual could die of old age if something that controls entropy were to attack them.

DNA after all, also has a half life.

They're not immortal if they can die, and I think they would have described it a little differently than "old age" if his atoms just fell apart.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Animus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
That Iron Warrior didn't die of old age. He died to the Hrud. The Hrud can kill planets. Even if something was biologically immortal, if they were attacked by the Hrud they would start to wither away, as simply being biologically immortal (IE your genes don't decay and kill you), you still need to exercise, produce new cells, eat, etc. The Hrud can age you so fast and rivet you to where you stand that you simply fall over and die. The Hrud could probably even age you to such a point that your atoms decay and fall apart to their half life.

It's said quite clearly that he died of old age. The Hrud can do more extreme things but that doesn't mean they always do do those things and didn't in this case.

Even a biologically immortal individual could die of old age if something that controls entropy were to attack them.

DNA after all, also has a half life.

Ehm, that's a mutually-exclusive condition. If your DNA is subject to entropy, then it has a finite lifespan. Your DNA does not change just because your cells are regenerative. If your DNA can degrade by the effects of time, then you aren't biologically immortal.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Animus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
That Iron Warrior didn't die of old age. He died to the Hrud. The Hrud can kill planets. Even if something was biologically immortal, if they were attacked by the Hrud they would start to wither away, as simply being biologically immortal (IE your genes don't decay and kill you), you still need to exercise, produce new cells, eat, etc. The Hrud can age you so fast and rivet you to where you stand that you simply fall over and die. The Hrud could probably even age you to such a point that your atoms decay and fall apart to their half life.

It's said quite clearly that he died of old age. The Hrud can do more extreme things but that doesn't mean they always do do those things and didn't in this case.

Even a biologically immortal individual could die of old age if something that controls entropy were to attack them.

DNA after all, also has a half life.

Ehm, that's a mutually-exclusive condition. If your DNA is subject to entropy, then it has a finite lifespan. Your DNA does not change just because your cells are regenerative. If your DNA can degrade by the effects of time, then you aren't biologically immortal.

I think people here are confusing invinicible with immortal - living forever; never dying or decaying or the better known version where Many fictitious species are said to be immortal if they cannot die of old age, even though they can be killed through other means, such as injury.

Invincibility is the lack of the ability to die. Meaning even if you are reduced to atoms you can still reform yourself.

Much like Majan Buu from Dragon Ball Z where he destroy entire planet and was then destroyed in the process but reformed himself from atoms.

There are only a few characters that are like this. Such as Lucius the Eternal who is literally eternal.

 Asherian Command wrote:


I think people here are confusing invinicible with immortal - living forever; never dying or decaying or the better known version where Many fictitious species are said to be immortal if they cannot die of old age, even though they can be killed through other means, such as injury.

Invincibility is the lack of the ability to die. Meaning even if you are reduced to atoms you can still reform yourself.

Much like Majan Buu from Dragon Ball Z where he destroy entire planet and was then destroyed in the process but reformed himself from atoms.

There are only a few characters that are like this. Such as Lucius the Eternal who is literally eternal.

Invincible is being unable to be defeated, often shown as being unable to be harmed.
Immortal is being unable to die.
If you can die at all then you're not truly immortal.

No, I know what "biologically immortal" means, and I think you're flat-out wrong to believe that Space Marines would live forever if they hung out on a Paradise World.

Space Marines definitely age. There are many examples from a number of Chapters who remark on "getting old" across the span of centuries.

The fact that we have zero examples of Marines living forever, or even for more than 10K years, give or take, without a) technological support systems or b) the Warp, while we have four editions of books telling us that the Blood Angels are the longest-living of Space Marines tells us pretty much all we need to know about their longevity.

It's the simple fact that Codex: Blood Angels has repeatedly stated that they're the longest-living Marines that tells us that they have a finite lifespan. Otherwise, there'd be no reason to have such a line in the codex.

 Psienesis wrote:
No, I know what "biologically immortal" means, and I think you're flat-out wrong to believe that Space Marines would live forever if they hung out on a Paradise World.

Space Marines definitely age. There are many examples from a number of Chapters who remark on "getting old" across the span of centuries.

The fact that we have zero examples of Marines living forever, or even for more than 10K years, give or take, without a) technological support systems or b) the Warp, while we have four editions of books telling us that the Blood Angels are the longest-living of Space Marines tells us pretty much all we need to know about their longevity.

It's the simple fact that Codex: Blood Angels has repeatedly stated that they're the longest-living Marines that tells us that they have a finite lifespan. Otherwise, there'd be no reason to have such a line in the codex.

This might mean many things though. It could mean.
A: Blood Angels are incredibly resislent and rarely die because of injuries and are thus longer lived.
B: They live longer.
C: Its GW problem that they keep writing over and over

Also i was stating you were saying you didn't know I was clarifying what you meant.

Invincible is being unable to be defeated, often shown as being unable to be harmed.
Immortal is being unable to die.
If you can die at all then you're not truly immortal.

There are two different types of immortalities the one where you cannot die of old age and the one that you cannot die period.

For example in the Greek mythology the gods are immortal, yet they still can be killed. (I.E. The Titans)

There are multiple examples of Gods not aging but dying in combat.

I hate to correct you command, as so far you have been absolutely right (I believe so anyway) but the greek gods couldn't be kiled. it was possible for them to fade out of existance, but not for them to be killed. as demonstrated when chronos was chopped into many tiny pieces and still existed.
ouranous seems to be an exception to this rule, as he was blatantly murdered.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Space Marines definitely age. There are many examples from a number of Chapters who remark on "getting old" across the span of centuries. It's the simple fact that Codex: Blood Angels has repeatedly stated that they're the longest-living Marines that tells us that they have a finite lifespan.

This might mean many things though. It could mean.
A: Blood Angels are incredibly resislent and rarely die because of injuries and are thus longer lived.
B: They live longer.

Blood Angels do usually stay handsome and looking somewhat young up until the very end. Dante could pass for an old High Elf in LotR, and poor Captain Tycho takes his own disfigurement so hard that the Sanguinary Priests recommend permanent deployment. I guess the BA method of creation and rest (sleeping in a sarcofagus) normally repairs most or all of the outer signs of aging and combat. The radiation-scarred Baal scavvies they recruit emerge from their coffins as handsome gods of battle.

Other marines go grey with age and build up massive amounts of scars - that's a good sign that they're not truly immortal. Their bodies don't repair all the damage they suffer from wear and tear, even if they're capable of surviving injuries that normal men couldn't even with the finest care.

 Wyzilla wrote:
DNA after all, also has a half life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turritopsis_dohrnii#Biological_immortality

Not if you have the ability to replicate and regenerate it.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
They were designed to guard the finished Imperium, no?

Biological immortality would help with that.

Yep. The Emperor wanted an army that could be active for centuries on end and could protect the empire's borders. Old age tends to get in the way.

Yet, they don’t live long enough to do that. Biological immortality might as well not exist because it never comes into use. It’s just another gimmick to make your already ‘special’ space marine even more special.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Animus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
That Iron Warrior didn't die of old age. He died to the Hrud. The Hrud can kill planets. Even if something was biologically immortal, if they were attacked by the Hrud they would start to wither away, as simply being biologically immortal (IE your genes don't decay and kill you), you still need to exercise, produce new cells, eat, etc. The Hrud can age you so fast and rivet you to where you stand that you simply fall over and die. The Hrud could probably even age you to such a point that your atoms decay and fall apart to their half life.

It's said quite clearly that he died of old age. The Hrud can do more extreme things but that doesn't mean they always do do those things and didn't in this case.

Even a biologically immortal individual could die of old age if something that controls entropy were to attack them.

DNA after all, also has a half life.

Ehm, that's a mutually-exclusive condition. If your DNA is subject to entropy, then it has a finite lifespan. Your DNA does not change just because your cells are regenerative. If your DNA can degrade by the effects of time, then you aren't biologically immortal.

Biologically immortal means you aren't affected by genetic degradation- IE when each time your DNA copies itself, you get a slightly gakkier copy. This process leads to overall degeneration of the body, coupled with the neurons dying off, potentially leading to cancer at some point. However then there's the atomic lifespan of everything, where even DNA itself decays even if it's making perfect copies. This for example is why nobody can clone any Dinosaurs, as their DNA is non-existent at this point as DNA has a half life of 521 years.

 Wyzilla wrote:


No, they make a claim. Unless there is any evidence to support such a claim, then it's voided.

That's pants-on-head crazy! This is fiction, the reason why we know anything at all about the setting, is that the authors told us how things are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Even a biologically immortal individual could die of old age if something that controls entropy were to attack them.

Keep grasping those straws!

 Crimson wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


No, they make a claim. Unless there is any evidence to support such a claim, then it's voided.

That's pants-on-head crazy! This is fiction, the reason why we know anything at all about the setting, is that the authors told us how things are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Even a biologically immortal individual could die of old age if something that controls entropy were to attack them.

Keep grasping those straws!

And it's fiction, and the authors have given us two examples of Space Marines living to be over ten thousand years old, and one who was two thousand years old. Meanwhile the Blood Angels have Jack and Gak backing up the line in their codex besides a kill made by a Hrud. And the Hrud probably don't even kill you through conventional biological aging.

The Hrud control entropy and can destroy entire planets. They are not an actual example of killing somebody with actual old age, especially when aging a biological life form several millennia while rooting them to the spot... hell just a couple centuries, should kill them alone from the lack of exercise, diet, etc.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Meanwhile the Blood Angels have Jack and Gak backing up the line in their codex besides a kill made by a Hrud.

This is the silly part. They don't need to have anything to back it up*, it is a fact told to us about them, and thus is exactly as much or little true as any other fact told to us by the creators of the setting. For some bizarre reason you seem to imagine that BL authors writing stories about stuff makes them more true than general stuff told in the codices.

(* Though there certainly are a lot of other facts that fit well together with that piece of information.)

 Psienesis wrote:
It's the simple fact that Codex: Blood Angels has repeatedly stated that they're the longest-living Marines that tells us that they have a finite lifespan. Otherwise, there'd be no reason to have such a line in the codex.

... Other then to brag how much better and pure and true they are compared to the infid... lesser chapters

 Crimson wrote:
For some bizarre reason you seem to imagine that BL authors writing stories about stuff makes them more true than general stuff told in the codices.

For some bizarre reason you seem to imagine that the inverse is true.

 Ashiraya wrote:

For some bizarre reason you seem to imagine that the inverse is true.

No I don't. We have general statements about the marine lifespan, and several 'old' marines that are couple of centuries old. Then we have some cases of marines living several millennia. This certainly is a discrepancy. Some people here prefer to throw away all the fluff that implies limited lifespan, because it is contradicted by few specific cases. I prefer to explain those cases as anomalous incidents, where certain circumstances (sus-an coma, warp, something else) allowed the marine to live much longer than is usual. That way most of the fluff can be preserved: Yes,marines have a limited lifespan of about five hundred years (give or take couple of centuries), and yes, those couple of guys lived much longer than that.

However, I really don't understand why some people keep insisting on immortality, now than even BL has backed down from that position.

I didn't consider this before but it "could" be that on the creation of astartes they were biologically immortal, but the massive watering down of the Gene seed could have resulted in a shortening of there life spans, this would allow consistency with the fluff, it could also account for modern marines standing out as they have lived a few millennia.

That's just a personal musing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also another factor to consider is that modern marines consider a 500 year old marine "old" as they are... Still alive, if most marines die "young" so to speak then any marine that lives longer than the norm would be considered old by there peers.

Then another thing is that the in universe narrator (codex) doesn't actually know that marines are biologically immortal and considers a 2k year old marine surprising and "old" and that they have far greater life spans than there peers.

Some of them look physically older than others, like the commander in the first Dawn of War. To me that's clear evidence that they do age, and by logic, they eventually succumb to age.

Again that's easily explained, it's called looking rugged, making a character stand out, also high stress environments can give the illusion of older age, scaring of the skin and weathering of the face, physical symptoms of age can appear even when the individual is functionally young.

The skin can become weathered and look old even if the internal organs are unaffected. So looks mean absolutely nothing.

 thegreatchimp wrote:
Some of them look physically older than others, like the commander in the first Dawn of War. To me that's clear evidence that they do age, and by logic, they eventually succumb to age.

That they appear to age does not indicate that they die of age.

After all, we've never seen a Marine who looks like this.

Or, maybe they are and this is just your way of getting us to drop our guard? Sneaky Ashiraya. I’m onto your tricks.

It depends on the chapter, Blood Angels are the most long-lived as they can live past the age of 1000. Dante has commanded the Blood Angels for 1000 years and we all know how many years it takes to become a chapter master.

Talos and the other night lords on the covenant of blood believe that it has only been 700 (iirc) years since the siege of terra. This suggests that the traitor legions aren't by their own perspective 10,000 years old.

It is also possible that some marines who have spent long periods in the warp might be "younger" than records suggest.

If I had a twin in the 41st millennium and I joined the guard whilst he stayed planet side then for every year I spent in the warp I may not be ageing at all whilst my twin is still getting older. Over our lifetimes say a span of 80 years, assuming I survive long enough to be drummed out on an imperial world, whilst records would state that we were both 80 I might have the biology of a man 15 years younger due to my time in the empyrean.

 Ugly Green Trog wrote:
Talos and the other night lords on the covenant of blood believe that it has only been 700 (iirc) years since the siege of terra. This suggests that the traitor legions aren't by their own perspective 10,000 years old.

No, it does not. It only reinforces what we already know - time does not work in the Warp like it does in realspace. The Warp, however, is unpredictable. It does not reliably shorten time. For each Marine who has only seen one thousand years since the Heresy, there is another who might have seen a hundred thousand years.

We know that at least a significant amount of CSM have experienced ten millennia of war since the Heresy. The Black Legion supplement flat out states this.

warp works both ways.
just as a man might spend a hundred real years in the warp and have it seem like three days, a man might spend three real days in the warp and have it seem like a hundred years.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 thegreatchimp wrote:
Some of them look physically older than others, like the commander in the first Dawn of War. To me that's clear evidence that they do age, and by logic, they eventually succumb to age.

That they appear to age does not indicate that they die of age.

After all, we've never seen a Marine who looks like this.

Spoiler:

You haven't seen "Ultramarines", have you?

But what the CSM know to be 10K years does not mean that they are biologically immortal. Simply by the fact that it's the Warp. They are aware of the passage of time, in the sense that they perceive it... time, itself, as in the biological process, may not actually be passing. It's the Warp, it is most certainly not an all-or-nothing scenario there.

I'll say it again. IN THE WARP, TIME IS NOT A SET THING. SOMETIMES IT GOES SLOWLY, SOMETIMES FAST. A DAY IN THE WARP MIGHT BE A YEAR IN REAL SPACE, BUT A DAY IN REAL SPACE MAY BE 100 YEARS IN THE WARP.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
I'll say it again. IN THE WARP, TIME IS NOT A SET THING. SOMETIMES IT GOES SLOWLY, SOMETIMES FAST. A DAY IN THE WARP MIGHT BE A YEAR IN REAL SPACE, BUT A DAY IN REAL SPACE MAY BE 100 YEARS IN THE WARP.

Yes but I think everyone's concerned about the Space Marines unaffected by the warp. I'd say it's pretty safe to assume the unaffected ones will eventually die, of something not involving a missile to the face and the likes.

My question is how is Fabulous Bill still around? Abaddon and Kharn? I get staying in the Warp MAY stem aging, but they spend time outside the Warp too. Fabulous, as mentioned earlier, was scared of dying of age.

Hell, the Alpha Legion don't even retreat back to the Warp; they live in realspace.

The answer probably lies with Cypher. 10k+ but does that include several sessions of warp time or help from chaos powers? only Lord Cypher knows...

Fallen Angel in the room!

 ChazSexington wrote:
My question is how is Fabulous Bill still around? Abaddon and Kharn? I get staying in the Warp MAY stem aging, but they spend time outside the Warp too. Fabulous, as mentioned earlier, was scared of dying of age.

Hell, the Alpha Legion don't even retreat back to the Warp; they live in realspace.

The Alpha Legion definitely resides in the Warp... and everywhere else, too.

Fabulous Bill definitely hops around in the Eye, and out of it. Abaddon and Kharn are both blessed by various Ruinous Powers, longevity is one of the basic perks.

This thread has me convinced of three things:
1.) Space Marines will usually die of old age after EDIT: Several millenia, if they don't receive a missile to the face. The reasoning for this being that, ordinarily, DNA reproduction breaks down over many decades (120 max, ordinarily 70-80 if disease doesn't strike first). However, the Space Marines are ten times better than ordinary humans in almost EVERY WAY. So, basically, the Space Marines won't fail for rediculous periods of time. The whole reason you never hear about Space Marines dying of old age is because, when they start to break down, they get killed in battle due to un-noticable decreases in reaction time, speed, reflexes, etc. And this breakdown will occur over centuries and millenia, so that it is almost imperceptible.
2.) Blood Angels are functionally immortal due to the time spent in Sarcophagi rejuvenating them and allowing them to continually replicate DNA perfectly.
3.) Blood Angels are fething AWESOME and I need to get a BA army.

 dusara217 wrote:
This thread has me convinced of three things:
1.) Space Marines will usually die of old age after aproximately 800 years, if they don't receive a missile to the face. The reasoning for this being that, ordinarily, DNA reproduction breaks down over many decades (120 max, ordinarily 70-80 if disease doesn't strike first). However, the Space Marines are ten times better than ordinary humans in almost EVERY WAY. So, basically, the Space Marines won't fail for rediculous periods of time. The whole reason you never hear about Space Marines dying of old age is because, when they start to break down, they get killed in battle due to un-noticable decreases in reaction time, speed, reflexes, etc.
2.) Blood Angels are functionally immortal due to the time spent in Sarcophagi rejuvenating them and allowing them to continually replicate DNA perfectly.
3.) Blood Angels are fething AWESOME and I need to get a BA army.

DNA only degrades through replication which can be simply stopped by manipulating your telomeres to be actually efficient. This is how you get aging in the first place. Considering there's multiple non Blood Angel marines well over a thousand years old, Astartes clearly don't suffer from limited lifespans outside of absurd periods of time that would put the atomic half life of their bodies into play.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
This thread has me convinced of three things:
1.) Space Marines will usually die of old age after aproximately 800 years, if they don't receive a missile to the face. The reasoning for this being that, ordinarily, DNA reproduction breaks down over many decades (120 max, ordinarily 70-80 if disease doesn't strike first). However, the Space Marines are ten times better than ordinary humans in almost EVERY WAY. So, basically, the Space Marines won't fail for rediculous periods of time. The whole reason you never hear about Space Marines dying of old age is because, when they start to break down, they get killed in battle due to un-noticable decreases in reaction time, speed, reflexes, etc.
2.) Blood Angels are functionally immortal due to the time spent in Sarcophagi rejuvenating them and allowing them to continually replicate DNA perfectly.
3.) Blood Angels are fething AWESOME and I need to get a BA army.

DNA only degrades through replication which can be simply stopped by manipulating your telomeres to be actually efficient. This is how you get aging in the first place. Considering there's multiple non Blood Angel marines well over a thousand years old, Astartes clearly don't suffer from limited lifespans outside of absurd periods of time that would put the atomic half life of their bodies into play.

I hate to say it, but I have no clue what telomeres are, would you care to enlighten me, oh wise one? (no sarcasm intended. Okay, maybe a little in the last two words)

 dusara217 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
This thread has me convinced of three things:
1.) Space Marines will usually die of old age after aproximately 800 years, if they don't receive a missile to the face. The reasoning for this being that, ordinarily, DNA reproduction breaks down over many decades (120 max, ordinarily 70-80 if disease doesn't strike first). However, the Space Marines are ten times better than ordinary humans in almost EVERY WAY. So, basically, the Space Marines won't fail for rediculous periods of time. The whole reason you never hear about Space Marines dying of old age is because, when they start to break down, they get killed in battle due to un-noticable decreases in reaction time, speed, reflexes, etc.
2.) Blood Angels are functionally immortal due to the time spent in Sarcophagi rejuvenating them and allowing them to continually replicate DNA perfectly.
3.) Blood Angels are fething AWESOME and I need to get a BA army.

DNA only degrades through replication which can be simply stopped by manipulating your telomeres to be actually efficient. This is how you get aging in the first place. Considering there's multiple non Blood Angel marines well over a thousand years old, Astartes clearly don't suffer from limited lifespans outside of absurd periods of time that would put the atomic half life of their bodies into play.

I hate to say it, but I have no clue what telomeres are, would you care to enlighten me, oh wise one? (no sarcasm intended. Okay, maybe a little in the last two words)

Essentially telomeres are the stuff responsible for replicating genetic material as the original cells die. Aging happens because the telomeres located on the ends of the genes (like a bottlecap) grow smaller with each copy and protect DNA less from damage or flaws occurring when the human body is copying its DNA to replace old DNA sets. However if you lengthen the telomeres, if not permanently, and keep them working at the rate they are when you're a baby, aging would all but stop completely.

Supplement this with forcibly converting mature stem cells into young stem cells, and congrats, you're biologically immortal.

There are examples of biologically immortal or incredibly long-lived animals that practice either one or both of these functions, Lobsters have constant production of Telomerase which keeps the telomeres in a juvenile, healthy state, and the immortal jellyfish can only die of disease or violence due to forcing its mature stem cells to turn into a young state (it can forcibly turn itself into a "baby" when it wants and can repeat this process for infinity).

I'd recommend you look up the wikipedia article though, it's more thorough and less crude.

Interesting fact: Lobsters are thought to be biologically immortal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_immortality

 thegreatchimp wrote:
Interesting fact: Lobsters are thought to be biologically immortal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_immortality

Ehhhh I wouldn't be so sure about that. They live for a very, very long time, but we don't know how long. Calling them immortal is a bit jumping the gun when research is still being done to see if they actually are immortal.

@Wyzilla I see... This is the kind of stuff that has me convinced we were created by God and not by evolution.

Anyways, you're right, Astartes probably are biologically immortal; there is far from enough data to be able to conclude this in a concrete fashion, but it is entirely possible and there is at least one Astartes who surived 10k years - Chapter-Master Astelan - without any Warp shenanigans or use of the Sus-An Membrane for extended periods of time.

Nah asty got spat out in the 41st millennium, he chilled out for a bit then went a rampaging, that it assuming anything he said was the truth.

 Formosa wrote:
Nah asty got spat out in the 41st millennium, he chilled out for a bit then went a rampaging, that it assuming anything he said was the truth.

Honestly, that whole book involving him was just one steaming pile of dogshit. It just completely changed the character of Astelan and turned him into a total racist Psycho; the complete opposite of what he used to be. That bit about the Lion makes sense, except for all of the Lion's conduct throughout Fallen Angels suggests the exact opposite regarding his loyalty. Gav Thorpe definitely is the biggest dick of an author I've ever read. At least, that's the impression that I got after reading a few of the things he wrote from his own perspective instead of from the perspective of one of the characters.

 dusara217 wrote:
I see... This is the kind of stuff that has me convinced we were created by God and not by evolution.

Platypus (and it's cousin the Echidna). No "intelligent designer" could have come up with those without doing enough drugs to screw over the rest of creation too.

Not to mention our own bodies have useless pieces that might have once had a function, like the appendix which does nothing for us except sometimes require emergency surgery when infected.

Well, in the Salamander books there was a marine from the Heresy era that they found still alive. He was however atrophied to the point where all they could do was give him the Emperor's Mercy and extract his geneseed.

If he had actually had any food over the 10,000 years he would have been fine.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, in the Salamander books there was a marine from the Heresy era that they found still alive. He was however atrophied to the point where all they could do was give him the Emperor's Mercy and extract his geneseed.

If he had actually had any food over the 10,000 years he would have been fine.

Aren't the space wolves known for being long lived too? I mean Logan Grimnar is over 800 hundred years old. And his mentor is over a thousand?

I think its really a misnomer when people say some are longer lived than others.

There is not a single case of a marine dying of natural causes. So its really just how fortunate can one marine be before a bullet with his name on it kills him.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think its really a misnomer when people say some are longer lived than others.

There is not a single case of a marine dying of natural causes. So its really just how fortunate can one marine be before a bullet with his name on it kills him.

Basically. If that salamander had been feed food and had a vegetable farm or food in general he would of survived.

Weather he would have been fit for combat is another story, but he would have been alive.

For all practical purposes, a marine might as well be immortal. They just never live long enough to prove otherwise.

Spetulhu wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
I see... This is the kind of stuff that has me convinced we were created by God and not by evolution.

Platypus (and it's cousin the Echidna). No "intelligent designer" could have come up with those without doing enough drugs to screw over the rest of creation too.

Not to mention our own bodies have useless pieces that might have once had a function, like the appendix which does nothing for us except sometimes require emergency surgery when infected.

i'M SORRY, (srry, caps lock) but how the feth would a PLATYPUS evolve? That seems like the kind of thing where God was playin' a joke and he was like
"Hey, Jesus, come check this out. Buddha, put down the drink, come over here. Check out my newest creation!"
Then Jesus was like ," What the feth is that thing? That a beaver?"
And Buddha's like ," I've got it! He's a PLATYPUS!"
And then God falls over in a drunken stupor as Platypi start reproducing in the wild and become the newest Greek monstrosities.
However, this is not the place for a theological debate, so good day, sir.

 dusara217 wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
I see... This is the kind of stuff that has me convinced we were created by God and not by evolution.

Platypus (and it's cousin the Echidna). No "intelligent designer" could have come up with those without doing enough drugs to screw over the rest of creation too.

Not to mention our own bodies have useless pieces that might have once had a function, like the appendix which does nothing for us except sometimes require emergency surgery when infected.

i'M SORRY, (srry, caps lock) but how the feth would a PLATYPUS evolve? That seems like the kind of thing where God was playin' a joke and he was like
"Hey, Jesus, come check this out. Buddha, put down the drink, come over here. Check out my newest creation!"
Then Jesus was like ," What the feth is that thing? That a beaver?"
And Buddha's like ," I've got it! He's a PLATYPUS!"
And then God falls over in a drunken stupor as Platypi start reproducing in the wild and become the newest Greek monstrosities.
However, this is not the place for a theological debate, so good day, sir.

...The Platypus is perfectly adapted for its current niche. Its oddity results from being a very, very rare group of mammals descended from the times when mammals laid eggs, instead of having live births.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
I see... This is the kind of stuff that has me convinced we were created by God and not by evolution.

Platypus (and it's cousin the Echidna). No "intelligent designer" could have come up with those without doing enough drugs to screw over the rest of creation too.

Not to mention our own bodies have useless pieces that might have once had a function, like the appendix which does nothing for us except sometimes require emergency surgery when infected.

i'M SORRY, (srry, caps lock) but how the feth would a PLATYPUS evolve? That seems like the kind of thing where God was playin' a joke and he was like
"Hey, Jesus, come check this out. Buddha, put down the drink, come over here. Check out my newest creation!"
Then Jesus was like ," What the feth is that thing? That a beaver?"
And Buddha's like ," I've got it! He's a PLATYPUS!"
And then God falls over in a drunken stupor as Platypi start reproducing in the wild and become the newest Greek monstrosities.
However, this is not the place for a theological debate, so good day, sir.

...The Platypus is perfectly adapted for its current niche. Its oddity results from being a very, very rare group of mammals descended from the times when mammals laid eggs, instead of having live births.

I maintain my current position, and no amount of logic will sway me. Plus, I have many other reasons to believe in Christ. Evolution may be true, but I don't think that human beings would be so lucky as to spawn on a world so perfectly balanced as ours. Anyways, good day. I am done with this conversation.