The optimist in me still hopes we'll see some form of the currently 'missing' BOTFA rules from GW, the concensus seems to be that sadly, they're done as far as that's concerned. As they say, though, if you want something done, do it yourself! So this thread is for discussing, suggesting and creating rules for all the stuff that appears in BotFA that GW haven't covered yet. Of course, anyone is welcome to join in, and hopefully between the contributors we can hash out some kind of fan-lists for the remaining troops, characters and scenarios.
To start things off, here's my take on The Iron Hills
Special Rules:
Unbreakable Phalanx: Iron Hills Dwarves may benefit from the Defence Bonus and Shielding special rule from Shields, even when using Pikes.
Shieldwall: The model may be supported by a Pike when Shielding, even though this is not normally allowed. Should this model win the Duel roll, the Supporting model may make strikes as usual.
Notes: Base stats of Erebor Dwarves, same cost, I figure the greater cost of Pikes over spears accounts for the Phalanx Special Rule rule, and Shieldwall is +1. With Shield and Pike they run 12ppm, which is about fair I think.
Options:
Armoured Ram: 2 points
Lance: 1 point
Shield: 1 point
Banner: 25 points
Special Rules:
Sure-footed: Rams ignore any penalty for moving over Difficult Terrain consisting of rocks, boulders, scree or steep slopes.
Notes: I based this one off a Warg Rider, adding 2 points for the extra Defence and 2 for the higher F and C values, dropping one for the slower movement for a total of 15 points. Not sure on the shield as D6 to D7 is a significant jump, so might be better off at 2 points
Iron Hills Kingsguard: 16 points
M5 F5 S3 D7 A1 W1 C4
Wargear: Heavy Dwarf Armour, Two-handed Axe, Two Axes
Options:
Banner: 25 points
Special Rules:
Bodyguard: Dain of the Iron Hills
Weapon-masters: The Iron Hills Kingsguard may choose to fight with a two-handed axe, and ignore the -1 penalty on the Duel roll, or with 2 axes, and gain an extra attack.
Notes: Not strictly from the film, but I wanted some elite troops and it's likely Dain would travel with a retinue of hardy warriors, so I don't think they're out of place. On costing, I started with a Khazad Guard (11 points), added 4 for the Weapon-masters rule as it's pretty powerful) and one for the extra Fight. Total 16 points, makes them expensive but not prohibitively so.
Notes: Basically lifted from Erebor Captains, with options done relative to other heroes.
Dain of the Iron Hills: 180 points
M5 F6/- S4 D8 A3 W3 C6 M3 W1 F3
Wargear:
Dwarf Heavy Armour
Hammer of The Iron Hills- This ancient hammer may be used in two hands with no penalty granting +1 on rolls to wound, or can be used in one hand, simply granting an extra attack.
Special Rules:
"Lets Give These Bastards A Smashing!" Dain's rousing, violent and utterly unrestrained war cries are a thing of legend among the Sons of Durin. All friendly Dwarves from the iron hills list and company of thorin within 12" of Dain count as in range of a Banner. In addition, they automatically pass all Courage tests they are required to take.
Headbutt: When Dain wins a combat with an enemy that rolls a 1(as its highest result) in the Duel roll, Dain siezes the opportunity to smash his hardened forehead into the enemy. He gains an extra attack in the following roll to Wound at S4 (this does not benefit from the bonus from his Hammer)
Taunt - any time in the Move or Shoot phase Dain may choose to Taunt an enemy within 6" not locked in combat. The target must immediately take a courage test which, if failed, causes the model to automatically move its full distance towards Dain and if possible charge him. This applies even if the target model has previously moved.
Notes: See below for changes and reasoning
So there's the bones of the list. Any feedback is welcome, and feel free to chip in with your own rules, scenarios and anything BotFA related.
Hey I quite like what you have got so far ! If I'm understanding your pike and shield rule, you're simply saying they get a bonus from the shield if wielding a pike as well ? If that's right then that would work really well for the defence line they do in the film which ofcourse is amazing !
You missed off Dain's might will and fate, I may suggest 3 might 1 will 2 fate ? Perhaps 3 fate to resemble his haediness better ?
Also I dont think the kings guard chaps would have 1111
Just added M3 W2 F2 to Dain, but I'm considering bumping it up to 3/3/3 as I do envision him as the Dwarf answer to the likes of Boromir of the Tower, Azog of Sauron and other complete beatstick heroes.
Yeah, the pike/shield rule is just lifted from the Easterlings actually, so I might just copy the exact wording from that when I dig out my rulebook. I had that epic shieldwall in mind when writing it, and figured it fitted with how they fight. Making them super-hardy in combat is fair when this list as it stands has no shooting without allies (not sure if should add bowmen or not).
Special Rules: Phalanx: Models with this special rule take no penalty for using a pike and shield. Shield wall: When 5 or more models are in base contact(not including supporting models) these models recieve a +1 to their defense as well as are not moved back should they lose in a duel roll. Additionally a model with this special rule may support another model with this special rule while shielding but may not strike if combat is won.
Dain of the Iron Hills: 175 points
M5 F6/- S4 D8 A3 W3 C6 M3 W1 F3
Wargear: Dwarf Heavy Armour Hammer of The Iron Hills- This ancient hammer may be used in two hands with no penalty granting +1 on rolls to wound, or can be used in one hand, simply granting an extra attack.
Special Rules: "Lets Give These Bastards A Smashing!" Dain's rousing, violent and utterly unrestrained war cries are a thing of legend among the Sons of Durin. All friendly Dwarves from the iron hills list and company of thorin within 12" of Dain count as in range of a Banner. In addition, they automatically pass all Courage tests they are required to take.
Headbutt: When Dain wins a combat with an enemy that rolls a 1(as its highest result) in the Duel roll, Dain siezes the opportunity to smash his hardened forehead into the enemy. He gains an extra attack in the following roll to Wound at S4 (this does not benefit from the bonus from his Hammer)
Haha hey no worries, i only spotted it after reading it for the third time !
I think 3 of each for Dain would be suitable, how many does he have in the original rules ?
I'd say leave bowmen out as there was no sign of any ranged ability using goes from the dwarf army, though thinking about it i remember seeing them throw spears when they counter charge. Might that be a possibility ? Give them an option for throwing spears ?
Hmm, I like those changes to Dain, but I'd still put him at 200 points considering he has the stats to punch out most non-beatstick heroes and the mega-banner effect (given the range, he could easily account for 2 other banners, which is 50+ points on its own). The changes to Headbutt are good as well, I actually think yours works better against base troops which is probably a little more accurate.
As for the shield-wall rule, I was going to put something like that in (thinking 40k Deathwing Knights, actually) but I feel it could be a bit fiddly in practice. If I'm reading it right, there's scope to forgo Supporting (simply by not declaring it) to instead gain +1 D and the ability to not be pushed back, which seems like a very good trade to me. Maybe something like this:
Shieldwall: Any Iron Hills Warrior in base contact with 2 or more models with this rule is never pushed back should he lose a duel roll.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Throwing spears might be good, I might make that an either-or with the Pikes (both would be impractical and not make much sense, I think).
Paradigm wrote: Hmm, I like those changes to Dain, but I'd still put him at 200 points considering he has the stats to punch out most non-beatstick heroes and the mega-banner effect (given the range, he could easily account for 2 other banners, which is 50+ points on its own). The changes to Headbutt are good as well, I actually think yours works better against base troops which is probably a little more accurate.
As for the shield-wall rule, I was going to put something like that in (thinking 40k Deathwing Knights, actually) but I feel it could be a bit fiddly in practice. If I'm reading it right, there's scope to forgo Supporting (simply by not declaring it) to instead gain +1 D and the ability to not be pushed back, which seems like a very good trade to me. Maybe something like this:
Shieldwall: Any Iron Hills Warrior in base contact with 2 or more models with this rule is never pushed back should he lose a duel roll.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Throwing spears might be good, I might make that an either-or with the Pikes (both would be impractical and not make much sense, I think).
Special Rules:
Phalanx: Models with this special rule take no penalty for using a pike and shield.
Shield wall: When 5 or more models are in base contact(not including supporting models) these models recieve a +1 to their defense as well as are not moved back should they lose in a duel roll. Only models in base contact with an enemy may benifit from this rule, furthermore any model benifiting from this rule may NOT strike if combat is won. Only supporting models may make strikes to wound.
Dain of the Iron Hills: 180 points
M5 F6/- S4 D8 A3 W3 C6 M3 W1 F3
Wargear:
Dwarf Heavy Armour
Hammer of The Iron Hills- This ancient hammer may be used in two hands with no penalty granting +1 on rolls to wound, or can be used in one hand, simply granting an extra attack.
Special Rules:
"Lets Give These Bastards A Smashing!" Dain's rousing, violent and utterly unrestrained war cries are a thing of legend among the Sons of Durin. All friendly Dwarves from the iron hills list and company of thorin within 12" of Dain count as in range of a Banner. In addition, they automatically pass all Courage tests they are required to take.
Headbutt: When Dain wins a combat with an enemy that rolls a 1(as its highest result) in the Duel roll, Dain siezes the opportunity to smash his hardened forehead into the enemy. He gains an extra attack in the following roll to Wound at S4 (this does not benefit from the bonus from his Hammer)
Yep, I think that's about right for Dain, so OP will be updated. I'll wait to see what others think of the Shieldwall bit as I still think that, while it would work thematically and mechanically, it's perhaps a little too complicated for the LotR system, which is usually doesn't require counting of specific models or placements.
Another idea:
Shieldwall: Models that are being supported by another model with this rule may Shield, even though this is not normally allowed. If they do so, they are never pushed back should they lose the subsequent duel roll.
One of the major reasons i put dain at 180 is basing him off imrahil. His stand fast rule applying only to dol amroth troops, same as dain. His stat line, along with might will and fate. I think that having dain at 180 is still a bit high, gandalf is only 170 and he would punk dain.
Looking nice and fun! I was in the process of doing my own Dain profile as well! Love his profile, but a few things i'd change, namely that OP bastard smashing rule. Nice and thematic but twelve inch courage insta-pass combined with the huge banner might get a few people miffed especially in small games. I'd change it to Stand Fast instead of the courage passing, similar in principle but a bit less powerful. Keep the twelve inch banner though, cos Dain's shouting isnpired me in the cinema! Otherwise love his profile, and i thought of this special Rule for a bit of fun:
Taunt - any time in the Move or Shoot phase Dain may choose to Taunt an enemy within 6" not locked in combat. The target must immediately take a courage test which, if failed, causes the model to automatically move its full dostance towards Dain and if possible charge him. This applies even if the target model has previously moved.
Just a bit of fun that would't really be used much but in can be good to break up battlelines etc.
Gotta go now but will look at other profiles later, all of which look awesome and thematic. Just need some models now...
Mega-Stand-Fast could work on Dain, I'll see what others say and change it if need be.
The Taunt rule is pretty good, and reminds me of a pretty much identical ability the Dwarf on The Third Age video game has, so I think that might go in. It is certainly precedented, given that it's a lesser Compel, so nothing OP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a side note, I've just got and had a look through the Art and Design book for BotFA, and there's some stuff in there that, while it didn't make the film, could be worth adding in here. In particular, Dwarf crossbows and Chariots I thought could add a little more variety in the IH list, so any thoughts on including them? I was thinking Crossbows could be a 1-point-and-swap-shield option on IH Warriors.
Also, going forward, what do you think we should have in terms of the Army of Azog and Bolg? One uber-list with Gundabad, Dol Guldur and various auxilluries like the Goblin Mercenaries, or separate lists for each?
Dwarf crossbows would be pretty cool, though not too sure about the chariots... what about the giant crossbows seen in the trailer? Could be pretty cool.
For bad guys the whole schebangg would be cool: goblins, gundubads, dol guldur, giant bats, half trolls, catapult trolls, special rules for ground worms. And of course the battering ram troll!
With the dwarven shieldwall issue you could keep it the same as the OP and let supporting pikes fight through shielding front man? Also i think the king's guard special rule with two axes is a bit OP for a non-hero, especially as only someone big like dwalin has it out of all the other dwarves. I like the idea of something special for them but that may cause a few tears.
Just a few more spanners to through into the works from me!
Yeah, I'm thinking I'll go for an All of the Baddies list, throwing everything as one. There will be at least 3 types of basic troops that way (Gundabad, DG and Goblin), and then the fun stuff like the various Siege Trolls, the Ogres and the olog-hai style Orc Beserkers that lead Bolg's charge. I'll get to work on this as soon as we're done with the Dwarves, so feel free to start throwing in suggestions for the more wacky stuff.
I think I like that Shieldwall idea best, it's so simple but does help make them the defensive formation they should be. It could be as simple as:
Shieldwall: The model may be supported by a Pike when Shielding, even though this is not normally allowed. Should this model win the Duel roll, the Supporting model may make strikes as usual.
So in practice, you forgo an attack in the Wound roll to gain one on the Duel roll. Seems fair to me.
I see what you mean about the Kingsguard, off the top of my head only Dwalin and Gimli have that kind of rule. One route I did consider was making them minor heroes (1 M/W/F, 2A and 1W) rather than Troops, but that would limit their use as a bodyguard, and make them more a spearhead for an attack, which while cool, is less what I had in mind while writing. Any ideas on how to put them a cut above normal troops without being OP?
Looking forward to the bad guys! If you want any profiles written up then feel free to ask, as i love creating statlines etc. but can't think of any others to fit the film...
Shieldwall rule looks nice now, fun to play with as well.
The Kingsguard issue is a problematic one, i tried making some elven guards/councillors that would go around with elrond as all minor heroes, but couldn't get it to work effectively either. I can't think of a special rule suitable for them at the mo but you could scour other rulebooks for special rules from other elites.
Also, there's the Sworn Protector special rule the 13 dwarves have for Thorin which sounds good, though i don't actually know what it does!
Working on the Army of Azog as we speak, but feel free to come up with any profiles you want, this is a collaborative project after all. And if you've any idea on how to represent Were-wyrms then that would be handy. Is there anything in particular you'd like to see. So far, I have:
Gundabad Orcs: Heavy Armour
Moria Orcs: Higher Strength, low D
Goblin Mercs: GT Goblins with Armour
Warg Outrirders: Mounted Orc Trackers
Gundabad Bezerkers: Half way between Orcs and Uruk Beserkers
Olog-Hai: Like Half-Trolls stat-wise
Various Troll Upgrades: Battering Ram helmet, wrecking ball limbs, passenger howdah
Automatically Appended Next Post: Army of Azog and Bolg: Evil Troops
Orcs and Goblins
Gundabad Orc: 6 points
M6 F3/5+S3 D5 A1 W1 C2
Wargear: Heavy Armour
Options:
Shield: 1 point
Pike: 1 point
Orc Bow: 1 point
Banner: 25 points
Moria Orc: 6 points
M6 F3/5+ S4 D4 A1 W1 C2
Wargear: Armour
Options:
Spear: 1 point
2-handed Weapon: 1 point
Throwing Weapon: 2 points
Banner: 25 points
Goblin Mercenary: 5 points
M5 F3/- S3 D4 A1 W1 C2
Options:
Shield: 1 point
2-handed Weapon: 1 point
Notes: Simple math here, each one has got a 1 point bump over its base cost for an increase on 1 stat. Hopefully, this should lead to more variety and encourage people to take both Gundabad (tough) and Moria (killy) Orcs, and Goblin Mercs for the cheap and cheerful ones. I'm thinking the basic Orc profile will be available in the final list as well.
Notes: a shooty alternative to Warg Riders, better Shoot value but lack of shield option to balance.
Orc Beserker: 12 points
M6 F4/- S4 D4 A2 W1 C4
Wargear: Armour
Notes: A fightier Orc, but still with low Defence. I'm thinking maybe up it to M7, with a points increase, as they do run out ahead of Bolg's marching army.
Battering Helm: The first time this model assaults a Siege Target (gate, doorway, or any other structure with wounds), do not make a duel roll. The Siege Target takes D6 Wounds, and the Troll takes D3 Wounds.
Wrecker Limbs: The Troll gains 1 Attack for each enemy model beyond the first that it is in base contact with.
Howdah: A Howdah may carry 2 Orcs, Goblins or Uruks as Passengers (these models may begin the game 'mounted'). These models may fire Ranged Weapons from the Howdah as if they had not moved, and each contribute a single attack to any Duel the Troll is involved in. Should the Troll be shot at, it is hit on a 1-4, while on a 5-6 the Passengers are hit. Should the Troll be killed, the Passengers immediately roll on the Thrown Rider chart.
Mountain Troll: 160 Points
M6 F3 S8 D8 A3 W4 C3
Wargear: None
Special Rules: Terror
Options:
Catapult: 80 points
Howdah: 25 points
Catapult:
S(10) Range: 18-96"
Indirect Fire, Area of Effect (see Mordor Sourcebook)
The Troll may only fire the Catapult if it has not moved this turn. The Catapult's crew play no part in the game, and may never act or be targeted by an enemy attack or ability. If the Troll is slain, the crew are assumed dead and the catapult destroyed.
Howdah: See above. Note that the larger size of the Mountain Troll allows up to four models to be carried rather than 2.
Notes: Trying to add some variety here as all kinds of Trolls turn up in BotFA, the Mountain Trolls are much tougher but much more expensive as well (too much so?) and the Catapult is an odd one, I've lifted the rules from the Mordor one with a few tweaks.
Monsters:
War Bats: 6 points
M10 F3 S2 D3 A1 W1 C2
Wargear: Claws and Teeth (hand weapon)
Special Rules:
Swarm: So long as there is another model with this rule within 3", this model passes all Courage tests
Fly: See main rules manual
War Beast: 4 points
M6 F3 S3 D3 A1 W1 C2
Wargear: Teeth and Claws (hand weapon)
Options: Must take at least one, and no more than 3, of the below:
Razor Teeth: The model gains 1 Attack: 2 points
Armoured Hide: The model is treated as wearing Heavy Armour: 2 points
Fast: The model increases its Move to 10: 2 points
Tough: The model gains 1 Wound: 5 points
Venomous: The model gains the Poisoned Special Rule on all its attacks: 2 points
Ferocious: On a turn it Charges, this model is treated as a Cavalry model, so gains an Extra Attack and its opponent is Knocked to the Ground should it win the Duel roll.
Great War Beast: The model replaces is profile with the one below: 20 points
M8 F3/- S5 D5 A2 W2 C4
Notes: The last one there is largely a 'build your own' as, especially in the various concept art books and backstory, there's all manner of creatures that Sauron uses, so I wanted the option to put that in here, at least as a bit of fun.
All seem pretty good! Good job. Only thing i'd say is it'd be cool to differentiate between the two main types of orc (thought they're pretty much the same in the film!) either by giving them different options or make one slightly more elitist. Will rack my brains for something more helpful.
I agree, the trolls would be pretty hard to do, but i think you've done them perfectly. Small suggestion would be to take out the two handed weapon because trolls generally have a big smashy thing that does lots of damage at their high strength anyway. Also other trolls in the game have never had need of that upgrade.
That warbeast is a great idea, a good chance for some custom models too.
I'm afraid i've only picked out things to change necause if i listed all the good things i'd run out of time and battery!
Quick idea for the were-wyrms, in games where reserves/deployment are rolled, when a warband rolls a 4+ the controlling player places a 4" marker and said warband may deploy in base contact/within 3".
Another way to do it is to have the WW count as their own warband are their deployment is rolled as usual. Whereever they deploy place a marker and friendly models may deploy from these holes.
Need rewording but general ideas are there!
Btw i'm still thinking about the Kingsguard special rule but i think they deserve something unique. A bit mundane, but the ability to shield could represent their skill with axes. Needs more synergy though!
I hear you on making the Orcs different, at the moment I've just split them with S3/Heavy Armour and S4/Armour to add some variety, but maybe I could take that further by giving one set the shield, spear and bow options (Azog's Moria lot, that seem to fight in formation more) and then 2-handed weapons and maybe Throwing Weapons for the less coherent and more killy Gundabad lot? I also want to add a more generally elite Orc profile, for Azog/Bolg's personal guards.
Good point on the Troll, I'll drop the 2-handed. Any ideas for other 'upgrades' (from the movie or just what would be cool)?
RE Kingsguard: How about allowing them to 'Shield', and then make a single attack (ie. Half what they would normally hit with) should they win? Or is that too much?
With Wyrms, I'm thinking maybe allowing a Warband to deploy within X" of any terrain feature on the board, chosen when the Warband becomes available. Although I do like your idea of just placing a marker (and there's some cool modelling opportunity there as well)
Yeah, I agree on the Kingsguard, I don't want to go down the 40k route of exceptions to exceptions to exceptions to rules, as it detracts too much from the simplicity of the rules. What about allowing them to use their weapons as a 2-Handed weapon, or use the Feint/Pierce Special Strikes. A few of Thorin's Dwarves have that, so there's a precedent.
With the Orcs, I think I'll go with:
Moria Orcs:; Heavy armour base, options for Shields, Pikes and Bows
Gundabad Orcs: S4 and Armour base, options for 2-handers, Throwing Weapons and Spears.
I like the idea of giving the kingsguard an extra special strike, though i don't have the list of them to hand. Giving them bash would be good but too much like grimhammers. Whirl? Representing swinging axe round and cutting off everyones head close to them? Feint could work as you suggested, could be pretty effective actually.
I like the idea for the different orcs, adds more character and variation to the army and also captures the feel of the films.
So what about 2-handed, Feint and Whirl for the Kingsguard? That gives them a tool to deal with heavily armoured targets or multiple lesser foes, without catapulting them to hero levels of killing power.
The variation in Orc options is in for certain; one of the things I liked most about BotFA was how the Orcs were at once varied by faction but distinct in faction in how they looked and fought, so if this can encourage people to throw in some Gundabad and Moria Orcs (with conversions, hopefully) then so much the better.
And it'll be a while before we get to it, but does anyone feel the Elven Halls list/profiles need redoing/expanding, or are they pretty much fine as they are? Of course, Thranduil will be getting Elk rules at the very least!
Paradigm wrote: So what about 2-handed, Feint and Whirl for the Kingsguard? That gives them a tool to deal with heavily armoured targets or multiple lesser foes, without catapulting them to hero levels of killing power.
The variation in Orc options is in for certain; one of the things I liked most about BotFA was how the Orcs were at once varied by faction but distinct in faction in how they looked and fought, so if this can encourage people to throw in some Gundabad and Moria Orcs (with conversions, hopefully) then so much the better.
And it'll be a while before we get to it, but does anyone feel the Elven Halls list/profiles need redoing/expanding, or are they pretty much fine as they are? Of course, Thranduil will be getting Elk rules at the very least!
Honestly their is no difference in profiles from the wood elves to the gladhrim elves. The only difference is their spear/glaive. other then that its identical
Oh, yeah, when I get around to writing up some scenarios, you can bet your boots the Elven shield-jumping will be a special rule! To awesome to ignore!
So the consensus is that Elves are fine but need Elks? That's easy enough. I'll just round out the baddies then get onto that. Then it's just some odds and ends (expanded Laketown?) And then onto scenarios...
Paradigm wrote: Oh, yeah, when I get around to writing up some scenarios, you can bet your boots the Elven shield-jumping will be a special rule! To awesome to ignore!
So the consensus is that Elves are fine but need Elks? That's easy enough. I'll just round out the baddies then get onto that. Then it's just some odds and ends (expanded Laketown?) And then onto scenarios...
lake town is fine, the elves are identical to gladhrim elves save for the glaive, only thranduil needs an elk. The elves were done justice in rules not in models. They totally blew that chance to sell tons of plastic kits to this guy alone.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Think of this change...........
Iron Hills Dwarf: 12 points (Dwarf)
M5 F4/4+ S3 D6 A1 W1 C4
Wargear: Dwarf Armour
Options: Pike and shield OR crossbow: Free Throwing spears: 2 points (these were in the movie and should be an option) Banner: 25 points
Special Rules: Unbreakable Phalanx: Iron Hills Dwarves may benefit from the Defence Bonus and Shielding special rule from Shields, even when using Pikes.
Shieldwall: The model may be supported by a Pike when Shielding, even though this is not normally allowed. Should this model win the Duel roll, the Supporting model may make strikes as usual.
What is the rule that allows the vault warden team to get defense 9? I feel something like that could be added to this. I think that with what i suggested with them being 12 points a model it will really limit their numbers so i think their should be a way to make them def 8
Oh and this made me laugh
Automatically Appended Next Post: Iron Hills Kingsguard: 16 points
M5 F5 S3 D7 A1 W1 C5
Wargear: Heavy Dwarf Armour
Options:
two-handed axe or two axes: free
Throwing axes: 2 points
I wasn't thinking of doing that much to them, but I was planning on adding profiles for Bain and Percy, both seem to be quite important in the film, Bain for how he interacts with Bard (could be some kind of inverse Bodyguard rule there) and Percy as he acts as the commander in Bard's absence, and it just adds a little more variety.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Think of this change...........
Iron Hills Dwarf: 12 points (Dwarf)
M5 F4/4+ S3 D6 A1 W1 C4
Wargear: Dwarf Armour
Options:
Pike and shield OR crossbow: Free
Throwing spears: 2 points (these were in the movie and should be an option)
Banner: 25 points
Special Rules:
Unbreakable Phalanx: Iron Hills Dwarves may benefit from the Defence Bonus and Shielding special rule from Shields, even when using Pikes.
Shieldwall: The model may be supported by a Pike when Shielding, even though this is not normally allowed. Should this model win the Duel roll, the Supporting model may make strikes as usual.
What is the rule that allows the vault warden team to get defense 9? I feel something like that could be added to this. I think that with what i suggested with them being 12 points a model it will really limit their numbers so i think their should be a way to make them def 8
I quite like that, simplifies things a bit with the Pike and Shield OR Crossbow choice. I have a feeling the ault Wardens just get D9 base on the front guy from the massive-ass shield. I also think D8 is a bit much for a basic troop, so maybe just drop them to 11 points a model? Or give them a rule that makes them D8 if supported by 2 Pikes (to represent the extra strength of the shieldwall/pike block), but I amost feel that would then warrant an increase in points. I mean, T8 is tougher than an Armoured Troll, or the same as a Dwarf Hero in Mithril, which I just think is too much for a bog-standard Troop.
Iron Hills Kingsguard: 16 points
M5 F5 S3 D7 A1 W1 C5
Wargear: Heavy Dwarf Armour
Options:
two-handed axe or two axes: free
Throwing axes: 2 points
Special Rules:
Bodyguard: Dain of the Iron Hills
What are you thinking the 2 Axes do here? Just +1A? Because that would be decent enough, but I almost feel they need something a bit more unique to really set them apart. Don't get me wrong, they've still got a very impressive statline, but for 16ppm, I'd say they should get a 2-hander and 2 Axes (or just 2A base). As it is, I'm not sure I see the reason for the price gap compared to, say, Fountain Guard with Shields (11ppm), which match them in S, A and D, as well as having Bodyguard.
I like the idea of pike/shield combo or crossbows, but i don't see the need for throwing spears because it looks like they just throw their pikes! Especially as we see some fighting with a sword afterwards. A bit too complicated to add higher defence special rules imo, shielding rule demonstrates aptly enough how strong they are behind the shieldwall.
Throwing axe upgrade is good but otherwise don't really see nedd for change of kingsguard as this could make game keeping a little harder to keep track of. Also like the characterful profile Paradigm wrote up. They don't want to be over priced as we might see the same thing happen as with grimhammers: awesome in every way just not worth it in serious games...
Percy would be fun to do, and Bain presents good opportunities for fun special rules. What about a profile for the women of Lake Town! Lol, could end up getting a bit sexist...
So the jury's out on the Kingsguard then? Throwing Axe (+2ppm) on top of 2A base, with 2-handed, Pierce and Whirl Attacks (16ppm base) seems fair to me, and characterful without being unprecedented, what with the Grimhammers and a few of Thorin's Co having access to multiple Special Strikes.
As for Laketown, I was considering having a profile for unarmed refugees (that could be used in any list really) that, while having terrible stats and being Unarmed, could have a very minor buffing effect on the units around them. But I think that might be the kind of thing best left for Scenarios than in the general list.
I wasn't thinking of doing that much to them, but I was planning on adding profiles for Bain and Percy, both seem to be quite important in the film, Bain for how he interacts with Bard (could be some kind of inverse Bodyguard rule there) and Percy as he acts as the commander in Bard's absence, and it just adds a little more variety.
i could see that simply to bring more troops and not run into the hobbit issue of running out of characters
Automatically Appended Next Post: Think of this change...........
Iron Hills Dwarf: 12 points (Dwarf)
M5 F4/4+ S3 D6 A1 W1 C4
Wargear: Dwarf Armour
Options:
Pike and shield OR crossbow: Free
Throwing spears: 2 points (these were in the movie and should be an option)
Banner: 25 points
Special Rules:
Unbreakable Phalanx: Iron Hills Dwarves may benefit from the Defence Bonus and Shielding special rule from Shields, even when using Pikes.
Shieldwall: The model may be supported by a Pike when Shielding, even though this is not normally allowed. Should this model win the Duel roll, the Supporting model may make strikes as usual.
What is the rule that allows the vault warden team to get defense 9? I feel something like that could be added to this. I think that with what i suggested with them being 12 points a model it will really limit their numbers so i think their should be a way to make them def 8
I quite like that, simplifies things a bit with the Pike and Shield OR Crossbow choice. I have a feeling the ault Wardens just get D9 base on the front guy from the massive-ass shield. I also think D8 is a bit much for a basic troop, so maybe just drop them to 11 points a model? Or give them a rule that makes them D8 if supported by 2 Pikes (to represent the extra strength of the shieldwall/pike block), but I amost feel that would then warrant an increase in points. I mean, T8 is tougher than an Armoured Troll, or the same as a Dwarf Hero in Mithril, which I just think is too much for a bog-standard Troop.
fair enough. I would call them done at 12points. You are right about the defense 8 i was just thinking normal dwarf warriors can get defense 7 and these iron hills guys have plenty of extra armor. Do we have rules for a dwarf crossbow? same as uruk hai?
Iron Hills Kingsguard: 16 points
M5 F5 S3 D7 A1 W1 C5
Wargear: Heavy Dwarf Armour
Options:
two-handed axe or two axes: free
Throwing axes: 2 points
Special Rules:
Bodyguard: Dain of the Iron Hills or thorin(kind under the mountian version only)
What are you thinking the 2 Axes do here? Just +1A? Because that would be decent enough, but I almost feel they need something a bit more unique to really set them apart. Don't get me wrong, they've still got a very impressive statline, but for 16ppm, I'd say they should get a 2-hander and 2 Axes (or just 2A base). As it is, I'm not sure I see the reason for the price gap compared to, say, Fountain Guard with Shields (11ppm), which match them in S, A and D, as well as having Bodyguard.
Yes a second hand weapon would give the second attack. options for an additional rule to add to the kings guard
A Warrior Born. must re-roll scores of 1 to Wound in combat.
Combat Synergy. If they are in base contact, Kings guard or dain ironfoot may choose to swap places with one another at the start of any Phase -this does not count as moving.
Boar Spear. A boar spear can be used as either a spear or a two-handed axe. Weapon option maybe????
Fearless. This model automatically passes Courage tests, but cannot use the rules for Shielding.
Paradigm wrote: I was thinking Dwarf Crossbows would be the same as Uruk/Corsair ones, yeah. S4, 24" range (if that's right, my rulebook isn't on me at the moment).
See above for new thoughts on Kingsguard. I'll add Bodyguard: Thorin, KUTM for sure.
Thats correct on the crossbow but it is also move or fire
Special Rules: Throw stones, unarmed, Flee, Fear everything
Fear everything: treat all enemies as if they caused terror, enemies that cause terror may NEVER be charged by a model with this rule and enemies that cause terror who charge a model will automatically fail their courage check.
Flee: refugees may run from a fight if engaged by an enemy model and has NOT moved yet this turn. If a model fails a courage check from terror it is considered having fled. If by doing so all other lake town refugees within 6" must pass a courage check or flee even if engaged in a fight(regardless if having had moved this turn or not). Models will move their full movement value towards the nearest board edge. If a model moves off of the board they are then removed as a casualty. Enemy models in base contact with a model that flees(before the flee takes place) will immediatly make a single attack against the fleeing model.
I based this off of hobbit militia. Humans would be a better fighter thus the F2 value but i didnt want the throw stones to be so effective. Unarmed is important as all models are considered armed with a hand weapon unless otherwise specified. The flee rule can be your best friend or worst nightmare. I considered adding d3 to the move for fleeing
That looks pretty neat actually (although I'm not sure why they're listed as 'Dwarf'). The only issue with those is that I'm sure the less-fluffy player would more than happily use them as roadbloack/chaff units that then flee so the troops can counter-charge, which kind of defeats the point reallly. For scenarios, where you can link their fate to VPs, they certainly work though.
What about giving them a rule that they treat all models as having Terror, but any Laketown Militia or Guards within X distance gain +1C for Terror tests? This stops them getting involved in voluntary fighting, but also represents nicely the fact that they are really what the Laketowners are fighting for?
The dwarf part is i copied the template from the OP
How does that update look. The free strike really makes you think twice because you will begin to dwindle if you do it too much and reach the breaking point much quicker
That looks just about fine now, the added downside to Flee will hopefully encourage a more proper/fluffy use of them and be interesting to play.
So that's Iron Hills and Army of Azog just about done, tomorrow I'll see about compiling this stuff in a sourcebook-style PDF. If anyone gets any chance to playtest this stuff, then that would be great. I'll see about trying out the Dwarf stuff tomorrow, maybe.
Paradigm wrote: That looks just about fine now, the added downside to Flee will hopefully encourage a more proper/fluffy use of them and be interesting to play.
So that's Iron Hills and Army of Azog just about done, tomorrow I'll see about compiling this stuff in a sourcebook-style PDF. If anyone gets any chance to playtest this stuff, then that would be great. I'll see about trying out the Dwarf stuff tomorrow, maybe.
My army of the iron hills sculpts has been put on hold for a moment. I recently just incurred a $400 repair to my truck which is a whole weeks pay for me.....unless anyone has some grim hammers they will donate to the cause ill just keep praticing my green stuff work till then
Ouch, sorry to hear about the truck. Hope you get that sorted.
I've tried my hand at some sculpting myself, but it'll be a while before I get anywhere; I got a decent-ish Dwarf torso piece, but for some reason I'm finding legs pretty much impossible. So at the moment, it's old-school LotR Dwarves that will be pretending they all have pikes.
Paradigm wrote: Ouch, sorry to hear about the truck. Hope you get that sorted.
I've tried my hand at some sculpting myself, but it'll be a while before I get anywhere; I got a decent-ish Dwarf torso piece, but for some reason I'm finding legs pretty much impossible. So at the moment, it's old-school LotR Dwarves that will be pretending they all have pikes.
Honestly looking at them it wont but repositiong some arms, adding a weapon to a hand maybe twisting a wrist, and adding a shield. From the looks of what I see in one box i can build kings guard and regulars with and without crossbows from one box. Getting 2-3 sculpts for each. It wouldnt be too hard to use a bit of colored wax to sculpt throwing spears bit that fits on a back that cant be cast in resin. If i can get something decent ill pour some molds and cast a batch or 2.
Yeah, I think converting from Grimhammers is the way to go, my attempts at sculpting from scratch were more for the challenge than anything. Some of those arms would be super-easy to just swap hammerheads for homemade Pikes, and affix some Shields to the forearm. The ones in more dynamic poses would make better Kingsguard, with maybe just an extended tunic and perhaps a helmet crest (going back to the art books, the idea is that anything above a troop rank has a crest, with Dain having the biggest).
Paradigm wrote: Yeah, I think converting from Grimhammers is the way to go, my attempts at sculpting from scratch were more for the challenge than anything. Some of those arms would be super-easy to just swap hammerheads for homemade Pikes, and affix some Shields to the forearm. The ones in more dynamic poses would make better Kingsguard, with maybe just an extended tunic and perhaps a helmet crest (going back to the art books, the idea is that anything above a troop rank has a crest, with Dain having the biggest).
The part that will bug me the most is the face plate. the iron hills guys have an open face mask that the grimhammers have covered. No i cannot sculpt that, we would have to call the perry brothers on this
I'm liking the rules you guys have come up with so far, dwarves sound like tough cookies which should be just right.
I agree that grim hammers are the best bet for iron hill dwarf conversions, my suggestion on the shields would be to create a simple one out of plasticard or greenstuffs . Then either repeat the process or make a green stuff mold to make even more of them.
Wolf wrote: I'm liking the rules you guys have come up with so far, dwarves sound like tough cookies which should be just right.
I agree that grim hammers are the best bet for iron hill dwarf conversions, my suggestion on the shields would be to create a simple one out of plasticard or greenstuffs . Then either repeat the process or make a green stuff mold to make even more of them.
Should be simple enough right ?
What i will do after making the mini is look at how it needs to be chopped up so that i can create a silicone mold of the pieces that I can use to cast them in resin. Not that ill sell them or anything but ill be able to make myself an army and maybe a few others on here minis.
On a side note these at the body shop DOUBLED the price of the part for markup. WTF. They knew i was bent over the fence and they sure as hell went in dry
Then i just got sniped WITH ONE SECOND LEFT by some d bag on ebay for a hell of a deal on uruk hai crossbows............[/rant]
I was going to convert some grimhammers myself as well with a pretty similar process by the sounds of it! Still deciding what to use for spears though, will have to look at freezes though. Also, with my birthday coming up i am hoping to get the Hobbit concept book that Paradigm has, is that the Brian Sibley one? I have his others and they are pretty good.
Ebay snipers, ooooh how i hate them (i hope no one here does it frequently!). The problem is they are growing more and more common with websites that automatically place bids on the last second... Though i have to be honest i have placed a last second bid before because it was something i just couldn't let go!
How simple would it be to edit the pdf format, because it would be cool to add pictures of converted models next to the profiles?
Edit: trying to think of ways to make a good Dain without too much sculpting. May have to delve into Fantasy bits...
Really a treasure trove of artwork, both digital and traditional, with tonnes of stuff that never made it into the film (the cinema version, at least).
As for the PDF, at the moment I'll probably be using pictures from the film, but as and when people start getting conversions done it should be easy enough to edit them in and then re-release the document.
For my Dain I used an old (either pre-WFB or 1st Edition) Citadel Dwarf mini, so it might be worth having a look on Ebay for older Dwarf minis. Failing that, you could get something passable with minimal sculpting on the old LotR Balin perhaps.
Ooh nice, looks good and for a reasonable price too. Thanks for pointing it out.
As for Dain, i'll probs just convert a foot model from the Balin you mentioned, or use the old Dain Ironfoot model from LotR (very similare i know!). Even armoured Dwalin with a bit of sculpting could be effective.
Ok, here's the test PDF, bit sparse on pics as there aren't that many around still. Once we get some pics of conversions and more stills from the film I'll add them in. So far it's only got the Army of the Iron Hills (with the proposed edits), but any thoughts on style/presentation are welcome.
Actually, I've not seen that one before. But it is pretty much exactly what I was thinking of when designing the Kingsguard, a super-angry tooled-up Dwarf, so as/when we get some non-Greenscreen shots of that guy he is going to unwittingly become the poster boy (poster Dwarf?) for the elite of the Iron Hills
A few things i saw in the PDF, for the Dain profile there is a slight grammatical error in his headbutt rule, start of the sentence says 'The' when it may need to say 'this'.
No worries, we are all human after all (at least i hope so...)
Also, was the taunt special rule an omission? It doesn't matter if it was but i wanted to make sure you hadn't forgotten anything you wanted to put in.
Might have a quick go at making a Percy profile now...
No probs, at least it will be in there eventually!
This is my interpretation of Percy, wanted to make him unique without cluttering his profile with Special Rules and also wanted to represent his bravery and and awe of Bard!
Percy, Lieutenant of Lake Town: 70 points (Human)
M6 F4/4+ S4 D5 A2 W2 C5 M3 W2 F1
Wargear: Armour and Sword
Special Rules:
Keen to impress: Percy reveres Bard like no other and is always trying to prove himself to this great leader. If Bard the Bowman, Girion's Heir is in Line of Sight of Percy at any point during that turn, Percy automatically passes any Courage tests he needs to make. He also comes under the effect of Bard's Saviour of Laketown Special Rule.
Notes: Base stats of Laketown Militia Captain, added 10 points for special rule and 5 for extra courage, then subtracted 5 for having a sword instead of a spear.
Edit: Might change as suggested by Paradigm, also changed his Will
Special Rules:
Father and Son: As long as both Bain and Bard are alive, each passes any Courage test they are required to take
A Fighter In the Making: Bain is inexperienced, but a quick learner in defence of his home and family. For every 3 models Bain kills, he may choose to increase his Strength, Defence or Attacks by 1 (each may only be increased once), or recover 1 point of Might (which may not take him beyond his starting value).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Percy looks good to me, the only thing I'm thinking is that, like most other named Captain-alternates (like Cirion, Gorbag, Lurtz ect), he should have 3 Might for an extra 10 points. I like the special rule.
Good point with the might, will edit OP. Also want something else to distinguish him as a trusted captain of Bard and how willing he is to fight. Basically to bring out his film character more!
Edit: profile changed, realised i had missed out the three hero stats completely! Will bumped as well...
Ok. here's a more complete PDF. While it still needs title pages, contents and the legal disclaimer stuff so GW don't send Stormtroopers to kill us all, this is pretty complete in terms of profiles, I'm thinking. All I'm thinking of adding in that department is possibly some stuff for Necromancer Sauron and the Spectral Nazgul, but I think that will need a lot more thought and playtesting than what we've got so far, which at present is compete Iron Hills list, complete Azog's Army list and a hugely expanded Laketown army list.
All we need now is some Scenarios, to which end I'm thinking we could do with rules for the following:
White Council vs Sauron and the Nazgul
The opening of the Battle of the 5 Armies, a real pitched battle type affair (and, of course, the Elven Shield-jump!)
The Battle of Dale
Thorin's Charge
The Battle of Ravenhill (got some cool ideas for this one)
So if anyone wants to try their hand at writing up some of those then feel free. And thanks for all the effort put in so far, I think we're making something really quite cool here.
Looks good, might also need a disclaimer for New Line in case they come searching...
Tbh Nazgul could be a challenge, or just an edit of the LotR profiles (which is really boring and unadventuress, i know). In spectral form they could have some nice teleport rules.
For scenarios, i was starting to write a Battle of Five Armies one anyway so might have a crack at that. Trying to think of some fun victory conditions though as nothing comes from the opening battle in the film, just 'Defend the Mountain!'
The Battleof Ravenhill is featured in the new supplement from GWfyi so if you need any inspiration you could look there (pretty average scenario they've written though imho...).
Yeah, I'll find all the relevant disclaimers when I get around to putting the final thing together.
On the Nazgul, my thinking is to keep them all at the 'base level' of the LotR profiles (I think that's 0/10/0 in the Heroic stats, off the top of my head), and I was also thinking of giving them a special rule where they ignore Terrain. The only issue I can see is that, even with Gandalf out of action, the newest version of Galadriel is still clocking a Wraith a turn on average (3+ Banishment, ouch), and once they hit CC Elrond will be taking them apart too, so that might need balancing somehow. I'll give it a think later.
As for the opening part of BotFA, in the film the Orc's main idea seems to be to push the Dwarves/Elves back to the mountain before turning to attack Dale, so I'm thinking some kind of turn limit might be in order. It could be as simple as saying the Good forces have to remain above Breaking point for X turns, while the Evil forces have to Break them. Maybe have unlimited Orcs as well (obviously, the Good Forces would need more initial points to balance this).
As for Ravenhill, I think the GW one is pretty uninspired, to be honest. It's just a normal battle with a ton of heroes. My idea was to have essentially 4 Battlefields on 1 board.
1: Kili and Tauriel vs Bolg and Gundabad Orcs
2: Fili vs Azog and Moria Orcs
3: Legolas Vs Bolg
4: Thorin, Dwalin and Blibo vs Goblin Mercenaries. 'No more than a hundred, we'll handle it..." THEN: Thorin vs Azog. The idea is that each of the previous mini-battles has an effect on the final showdown, so for example if Legolas kills Bolg Thorin gets Orcrist back, if Kili/Tauriel beat Bolg they join Thorin for the final fight, if Fili can wound Azog he goes in against Thorin weaker ect. In other words, I want to make everything that happens important to the last confrontation, rather than just a hero-fest free-for-all brawl like the GW Scenario.
It could be good fun to play around with the Nazgul a bit, a lot of potential. I like the idea of ignoring terrain. As for the Galadriel op issue, you could give the Necromancer a special rule that 'reanimates' or gives extra fate to them or something, like in the movie. Elrond kicking ass doesn't bother me at the mo, cos he is badass! Also a chance for giving exotic weapons to different nazgul. Don't have a picture with me but basing profiles heavily off the film is a primary aim i guess...
Good idea with the breaking point, i was also thinking of having one objective in the middle (or behind the dwarves/elves) that the orcs need to take in order to get battlefield superiority. There will defo be a special rule for jumping elves though!
Yeah, both the scenarios seem pretty rushed, as if they had the profiles and they needed to suddenly add some flavour and give people a reason to buy the overpriced models! I really like your idea though and cannot wait to see how it turns out!
I like that idea of Sauron having an 'area of effect' buff on the second wave of Nazgul (I'm thinking that, like the film, they all have to be downed once and then Sauron pops up, they all come back, Galadriel goes even more OP/Awesome and Round 2 begins). And with 2 waves, Elrond and Galadriel being able to take them on easily isn't such an issue. I'm not sure how unique I want to make the Wraiths, though, as I almost think having every model on the board with a different rule/profile might be hard to keep track of.
I don't know what you had in mind for the Elven Jump, but here's my idea for it, feel free to steal or ignore it:
United In Battle: At the start of the Fight Phase, if any Dwarf is in base contact with an Elf and at least one of the two is engaged in combat, the Elf and Dwarf may swap places. Proceed with the Fight Phase as normal.
Basically, lift Kili/Fili's Combat Synergy rule, so you have your elves behind the Dwarven shieldwall, Orcs charge that, you pull the switcherooo and BAM, elves in front supported by Dwarven pikes!
Alternatively, you could just allow any Elf to Support a Dwarf and vice versa, even if they don't have Spears, but that might be a little OTT, so maybe you'd want to weight the force lists/victory conditions in favour of the Orcs to balance it.
I actually added up the cost of the models in the Laketown scenario, you need about £650+ of minis before you even get into terrain. I wonder if that scenario will ever get played without hefty counts-as? Part of me really hopes not, as otherwise someone threw that much money at monopose Finecast
The different rounds sound like they could be great fun! As for non scenario use an interaction with sauron would be cool. You could do a standard profile for them, then have a different one for witchking and khamul? He definitely stood out in the film for me so would be cool to give him that weapon he had (i'm pretty sure he had a different one, right?).
As for the elves jumpy thing, i was just thinking that they can move their full distance even when moving through a dwarve/a battleline. Will enable the shieldwall to form up then the elves can 'move through it' and appear in front, just like in the movie. I do like the synergy idea though...
Edit: omg that scenario better be damned worth it!
Yeah, your Elf rule is better. Much simpler, more accurate, and very cool in practice, I imagine.
Ok, for Nazgul, maybe 7 normal, Khamul and the Witch King? That sounds doable. Khamul and TWK get a Might and Fate each, the rest just get minimal rule. Once they are all put down, they reform, Sauron gets placed (I'm thinking marker rather than model, as he doesn't actually fight) and when within X inches of him, they get a free Will Point each turn, which should level the odds a little.
I've just finished up Ravenhill, it's an epic double page beast of a scenario, with charts and everything Basically, battles 1-4 decide who shows up for the final fight, so Azog could end up with some Gundabad Orcs and Bolg, while Thorin could have Dwalin and Tauriel show as backup. Then there's a no-breaking-poiint fight to the death, to decide the whole thing. In practice, it should be pretty awesome!
Got Dol Guldur and Battle of Dale typed up, so now it's just the opening battle and Thorin's charge to do. I'm thinking the latter will be simple; 700 points a side, good guys get a Dain, Thorin, maybe a few more of the Company as part of that. Special rules wise, I'm thinking giving the whole Dwarf army the Du Bekar rule from the GW Supplement (Thorin=banner, basically). That, and possibly an endless wave of Orcs, the Dwarves must get half or more of their models across the halfway line.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Out of interest, what are you thinking points-wise for your Scenario? I was thinking 800 a side, considering there's a lot of Heroes.
Also, I was thinking we should put in some rules for Azog's big signal things. Maybe giving the Evil side some one-turn one-use abilities as Azog gives the different commands.
Maybe give good player defo Thorin, fili, and kili, then let them choose certain points value of the rest? I like the idea of them pushing through the hordes of orcs.
800 sounds good, don't know whether to give succinct lists of units to use or give the points and free reign, thinking the latter atm. Also, abolish warband rules for evil as they are an endless horde? Or just do this for 'reinforcements'. Going to use the rule in the original Balin's Tomb scenario of any orc that dies comes back on a 4+, meaning there aren't too many at once.
Yeah, i like the idea of the signal thing, maybe Azog's heroic actions (not heroic fight) affect all models on the board. Or one hero per turn gets free heroic march/move.
Things to think about, will write up the first draft of the scenario in an hour or so when i get back.
I was thinking Thorin, Dain, Kili and Fili, and the rest are optional.
I think you should just allow 800 points of free reign, but that must include Dain, Thranduil and maybe Gandalf? And yeah, scrap the Warband rules for the bad guys, MORE ORCS! 4+ for reinforcements sounds fair, but I'd make it infantry Warriors only. We probably don't want endless Troll or Orc Captains around. And possibly drop the oints so there's only, say, 600 points of Evil on the board at any one time, but it keeps coming back. Then have the Good forces survive X turns without Breaking to win?
Were you planning on including Azog in the battle? Because I love the idea of army-wide Heroic actions, but I don't think at that point Azog is getting his hands dirty, so maybe just allow 3 'disembodied' Might points that affect the whole board for one turn? That seems cool to me.
I think i'll do 400 points dwarves, 300 elves and 100 laketown refugees, to make sure it is kept thematic. Compulsory heroes of course, might include Bilbo as well.
I like the idea of having three might to be spent whenever in the game to represent azog commanding from ravenhill, will defo put that in.
Also thought of another rule, where elves can't benefit from dwarvish heroic actions and vice versa, to represent how on edge they are with each other.
Another thing i thought was that if the evil player can hold the entrance to erebor (or a point on that edge of the board that would mean they can take erebor) then they automatically win.
That would be another way to do it. Have the victory condition be that the Evil player must get, say, 25 models off the opposite Board Edge by a certain turn, while the Elves and Dwarves have to stop them. Actually, that would work quite well, and force the Good player to play defensive, which makes sense.
I like the Elf//Dwarf rule, that's cool. If I recall, though, there were no Laketown survivors at the opening of the battle, it was only when Azog's lot turn round and go for Dale that they join in. So maybe 100 poins just for a kind of 'negotaion' council could work, but I almost think you could drop them and do an even Dwarf/Elf split. The Laketown lot feature quite heavily in the next scenario anyway making up 2/3 of the Good force, so it's not like they'd be underrepresented.
Yeah good idea. I like it! Though that might be pretty hard, considering dwarves defence etc.. What about an objective (or two) deep in good's deployment which the orcs must control in order to launch a full on assault. This way the orcs on the objective can still fight and it feels more aesthetically pleasing than just walking off the board. Just my opinions anyway...
True, laketown probably aren't necessary. So are you thinking 400 dwarves, 300 elves, and others. Or 400, 400, and others. Gandalf and bilbo add up to 160 together. Probs the former imo.
Well it's your scenario, so your call, but remember that the ones that walk off the board can walk right back on the next turn as Reinforcements, so it does have an actual effect on the battle. But clearing the area around an objective works just as well!
In terms of forces, considering Evil have unlimited guys, 300 each Elves and Dwarves plus mandatory Dain, Thranduil, Gandalf and Bilbo. Versus about 6-700 in Orcs, with the Reinforcement rule. To be honest this is weighted towards the Good force in points, but the Special Rules and Victory conditions should help balance it.
Ok cool, just don't want to do something silly...!
Yeah good idea, will do the forces like that. Also, as i am going to make a map for it, i was going to make it 6 foot by 4 foot battlefield, but it might seem a bit big for some...
Am currently writing the scenario at the moment so there is a lot of the backspace being used!
Automatically Appended Next Post: So i have finished the first draft for the Battle of Five Armies scenario. Format can be changed if needs be but i've just put the main information down. Ideas for changes/additions will probably be needed! Also, currently creating the map, will share that later. Enjoy
The Battle of the Five Armies
Layout
The battle takes place on the blasted planes between the once noble cities of Erebor and Dale. The board should be generally flat and be strewn with a few rocks.
Starting positions
All armies deploy fully in their respective deployment, Gandalf and Bilbo start with the Elves. Edit: in the absence of the map i'll describe deployment: 6'x4' table, 24" for orcs on southern side, 18" for Elves and 1/2 of the dwarves on Northern side, 6" in front of that for rest of dwarves to represent the original shieldwall. 24" between armies.
Participants
On the good side are: Dain Ironfoot; Thranduil King of the Woodland Realm; Gandalf the Grey; Bilbo Baggins Master Burglar; 300 points from 'The Army of the Iron Hills' list; 300 points from the 'Thranduil's Halls' list (excluding Legolas Greanleaf, Legolas Prince of Mirkwood, and Tauriel Mirkwood Exile). Note: Dain and Thranduil may lead Warbands, but Gandalf and Bilbo may not.
On the Evil side are: 600 points chosen from the 'Army of Azog and Bolg' list (excluding Gundubad Orcs and Gundubad Orc Captain). The usual rules for warbands do not apply, but at least three heroes must be taken.
Objectives
Erebor is the main prize for the armies of this battle, and two positions on the battlefield present themselves ideally for the Orcs to further their assault on the beleaguered mountain. Place two objective markers 12" from the Northern board edge and at least 6" from the side edges (Note: it fair to make sure both players are happy with the positioning, or let each player place one marker each.). The Orcs must hold at least one of these objectives at the end of the game to win. The Good player must stop them.
Special Rules
Never-ending Horde - The Orc army is constantly spilling from the were-wyrms' holes, seemingly without an end. Every time a non-hero model (excluding trolls and Olog Hai) are killed, set them aside instead of completely removing them. At the start of the controlling player's next Movement phase roll a D6 for each of these models. On a 4+ a model may return to the game from the Southern board edge.
Leading from the Back - Azog has positioned himself at Ravenhill, overlooking the battlefield, and has erected a cunning device through which he can direct the hordes of his armies below. The Evil player has at his disposal three Might points which he may use throughout the game for Heroic Moves, Heroic Marches, and Heroic Shoots. This Actions affect all friendly models on the board.
Ancient Enmity - The Elves and Dwarves have harboured a deep rivalry for many a century, and even in battle they distrust each other. No Elves may benefit from Dwarvish Heroic Actions, and vice versa for Dwarves.
Elvish Agility - The Elves are famed for their light-footedness and preternatural grace, and in the heat of battle during the Battle of the Five Armies they could be seen leaping over their Dwarven allies and into the fray. Any Elves may move through Dwarves as if they were not there and carry on their move, even though they may not normally do this. This can take them into combat if necessary.
I like the look of that. Only thing I'd add is that the Evil army can not include named characters. Other than that, I'll get that typed up into the main document and then I think we're just about done!
At this point, we have:
2 completely new army lists
1 massively expanded Army List
5 Scenarios
Pretty good, compared to what GW gave us! Anyone have anything else they thing we ought to add?
So i've quickly put this together, interested to see what you make of it...
Dwarf ballista Pts: 50
Strength 9 Defence 10 Batter points 4
Dwarf F ..S D A W C
crew 4/4+ 3 6 1 1 4
Crew - A Dwarf ballista consists of a dwarf ballsita and three Dwarven crewmen armed with swords and Dwarf armour. Additional crew can be added an an extra cost:
Dwarf crewman: 8 pts
Special rules:
Piercing Shot - as per Fallen Realms
Flechette Bundle - this special type of ammunition consists of many smaller arrows trussed together into a bundle, and when primed correctly the bindings are designed to slip off at the peak of its trajectory, leaving the arrows to spread out as they come down to Earth. When this special round is fired and a hit has been scored against a Battlefield Target, and before any wounds have been resolved, roll a D6. On a 3+ the arrows have been primed correctly and the arrows are loosed, causing ALL models within 2" to also suffer a Hit.
Just a quick photo of the nine for inspiration. Looks like khamul actually has a big mace/club thing... Nice! Heard a wild rumour that he was also in fact played by the mighty PJ himself! Who knows...
Ok, here we go! PDF as complete with title page, contents, army lists and scenarios (and pictures, because pictures are fun)! Still need to play around with formatting a bit, but I think it's come together pretty nicely. If anyone sees any mistakes, omissions or errors do let me know. And of course, feel free to print this off and use it, that's what it's for!
Nice! Just had a quick read and I really like it! No corrections noticed yet...
Edit: just noticed this in the Dale battle scenario in the deployment section for the Elves coming on, slightly nonsensical...
At the start of each Turn including and after the 4th, roll a D6. If the result is 10 or higher, the Elves immediately move on to the board from the appropriate Board Edge.
Should it have a reference to adding the turn number to the dice?
Also, in Percy's Eager to Impress special rule, it says "revere's", though i believe the apostrophe isn't needed due to it being a noun in the third person singular. Sorry for being a grammatical pedant!
right, probs a bit late but just wanted to show a quick draft of the map for the BotFA scenario. I can do the others as well if you want. anyhoo:
Good spots! I thought I'd fixed Percy's rule as I did spot that before, but apparently I forgot. I'll edit that, and yes, I meant to put in a count of the turn number on Dale.
That map is very nice, as you'll have noticed I haven't done maps for the others but I'll try and find space for that one. If you fancy drawing up some maps for the rest of the scenarios then feel free and I'll put them in.
Cool! There's no hurry, I shan't be able to edit until late tonight at the earliest anyway. Rather than put them on the actual scenario pages, I'll add them in an appendix at the back (after all, what's LotR without appendices? ) and probably put together a profile reference sheer as well.
Great effort here guys, really enjoying reading all of this. Dunno if I'll ever get to play the scenarios due to lack of group, but they look pretty balanced to my eye.
Just a minor update, typos fixed and rules corrected:
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a a side note, I posted this on The One Ring earlier and the posters there seems very happy with what we've come up with here! The feedback so far has been good (although apparently we rather significantly undercosted the Ramriders, comparing them with a Knight of Dol Amroth they should be about 19ppm, not 15!).
Oh right. I'm relatively new as well and don't post much, frequent The Last Alliance more. Username on both is Melkor the Mighty. Will check out the WiP!
Made a few changes to the rules this morning; various points costs moved up/down based on feedback from OR. Someone on there also had a 4500-point mega-battle version of BoTFA written up, and have let me add it as an extra. Probably something no one will ever play, but if I stick in a note about scaling it down then it might be fun to have an all-in-one alternative.
And some playtest notes on the Dwarves:
First game, One Warband with a Captain, 8 Pikes and 3 Kingsguard went up against 2 Orc Warbands (total 2 Caps, 8 Shields, 9 Spears, banner) and slaughtered them for the loss of 2 Dwarves. They managed to remain in formation and limit the oncoming attacks to facing a 3-Dwarf-deep pike block.
BUT in the second game, against 200 points of Uruks (Cap, Beserker, about 15ish Shield or Pike warriors) it was a completely different story; wiped out by the Uruks being able to match them attack-for-attack with pikes. I need to refight this one, as there was some appalling luck for the Dwarves (with F4 everywhere there were many ties, I think Dwarves won the roll-off on about 2 of them!), but my earlier theory was proven true; break the Dwarf formation, and they then become very expensive for what amounts to a single Dwarf Warrior in combat. So Monsters with Hurl and Barge should make a mess of them, too.
For their next fight they'll be up against some Elves, fewer attacks but a lot of shooting. After than, I'll see about Cavalry, monsters and uber-hordes. If anyone has any suggestions for forces that would make fair tests I'd be interested to hear them (ideally 200-210 points, sticking to Warband rules unless that skews them too much).
Just realised i haven't finished doing the maps yet! So much for the weekend! Will get them done by this afternoon.
Interesting results on the play testing. I originally thought they were a bit op after the orc massacre but it seems they are quite vulnerable in the right circumstances.
Cavalry could be interesting, what about archer cav and general skirmishing army (woodelves, grey company etc.) due to their less movement being a weakness. Also a seige engine would be fun. Trebuchet a big rock into the middle of the formation
I'd try them out against something MASSIVE as well, thinking like Sauron or Balrog or Watcher, just to see how long they last as most infantry should crumble before the big guys.
Good work, look forward to seeing a batrep! Hopefully i'll de some playtesting of other stuff when i gat home in a few weeks.
Kingsguard for the most part I were alright; they fought like a cross between the old Khazad Guard and Iron Guard, and racked up a few kills in each game, but they did remind me why I so rarely use 2-handed weapons (It seems univrsally true that if one of my models swings 2-handed, the enemy WILL roll a 6 and beat him).
I'm thinking for the next few tests, I'll go with:
Knights of Minas Tirith/Dol Amroth
Gondor mixed Inf/Cav
Old-school Grey Company (all bows, just to see how they fare)
Rohan skirmishing force
Goblin Town horde
Sounds like kingsguard are a sort of unit to go and cause damage amongst minor troops or go monster hunting, especially with the Bodyguard special rule. The two-handed gamble is the decision i get most flustered about in a game, forget about whether to spend that last Might! The trick i guess is to have a banner close by, and/support them with models that don't suffer to their duel rolls to assure the two-handers hit. But his of course uses more points and models that could be used elsewhere. As i said earlier their main use will be surrounding a monster with a few doing two-handed to make sure you win a fight then choppy choppy.
The tests looked well balanced and should provide a wealth of different situations for the dwarves. Interested to see what happens with the grey company. Have you thought about throwing a hero at them (circa 150 points) with support to see how they fair against higher fight and more attacks and how much damage they can do. And they will defo come up against a hero in the game.
Yeah, Wrecking-ball Heroes are on the list to be tested, both with and against. I want to see how they fare against someone like Boromir, or being led by someone like Dain or Thorin.
The Kingsguard are certainly OK for their points, against chaff troops like Orcs or Goblins they'll cut them down well enough (especially once I have more than 3 and led by a Hero). I'm interested to see how they fair against Trolls and the like.
I guess with an enemy with low strength you don't need to worry about going two-handed as with such highe defence it is unlikely that you'll get wounded. Especially if they get surrounded by mobs, as they can use the Whirl attack. Six or so led by Dain would be like a hot knife through butter cutting through hordes of goblins. Wel, more like a sledge hammer being used to cut butter!
My thoughts exactly. For a 600-ish army I'm looking as Dain with 6 Kingsguard, then two 3x3 pike blocks with Captains. Very low model count, but in theory an unstoppable force flanked by a pair of immovable objects
Automatically Appended Next Post: Alternately, for a completely horrible formation, you could do the following:
Hero
3 Kingsguard
8 Pikemen
Banner
Expensive, but you get 4 attacks per guy on the front rank (so swing 2-handed and still have two normal dice), D7 all round, with Banner rerolls, and generally be far more offensive than the standard pike block! Might try this evilness out later...
Ooooh nasty. Maybe i don't want to play that anymore!
That is pretty evil, but correct if i'm wrong in saying a model using a two-handed weapon can't be supported? I might be making this up though.
I reckon a mix of Kinsguard and pikes working together could work really well, either with the kingsguard in front to soften the enemy up a bit, round the flanks to sweep round and surround the enemy, or at the rear to fill any gaps with a nasty surprise!
What about: front rank Pikemen, second rank Kingsguard, third rank pikes. Third rank can fight through as kingsguard won't be fighting, kingsguard can throw weapons before charges and then move forward when the front rank dies... Could work nicely, like dwarf skirmishers!
The pike/support rules changed a bit with The Hobbit. You can now support models who are swinging 2-handed () but can't support 'through' a model not also using a pike(). So I'm not sure that exact setup would work Kingsguard on the side to swoop in and take out Supporting enemy models/go for trapping is how I've been using them so far, but I'm going to test them as front-rank fighters and see if they do any better there. I'll probably still run Shieldwalls and the KG with Dain for fluffiness, but I can see the other version doing well.
Oh right, i get confused with the two editions as i play both with different people! In that case them on the front doing two-handed with two extra attacks from pikes behind could be VERY deadly, especially with dain in there... Do it, you know you want to!
Just went Round 2 with the sam Uruk force, and again the Dwarves were wiped out. They did take nearly half the Uruks with them, and their luck was less horrendous, but as with before, as soon as one or two cracks appear in the formation the Dwarves got overwhelmed (even with the KG in the front).
Next up, they'll be going against some kind of Cavalry.
No problem at all, it is my small contribution to the community effort I would have contributed a lot more but having recently crushed my foot at work I've not really been moving around much and I hate replying on my tablet.
Also I did notice the gundabad orcs aren't the heavily armoured ones ? I thought they would be judging by how much armour they have in the film. Or am I getting missed up with the different orcs ?
Yeah, I made the decision to make Moria Orcs (Azog's ones) the heavily armoured ones while Bolg's Gundabad Orcs have lighter armour and more aggressive weapon options (2-handers, throwing spears). It's an abstraction for the sake of variety, really.
It was mentioned elsewhere that this is pretty much the opposite of the Gundabad profile from the DoS book, but of course you can feel free to add that in (I can't put it in the doc, though, for copyright reasons). Or, you coud just use the Moria Orc profile for your Gundabad force if you wanted them in heavy armour.
well, I have been pretty unproductive today and only managed to finish one map: Dol Guldur.
I have nearly done Dale as well, though that will probably be tomorrow's job along with Thorin's charge which won't take too long. I've decided not to do a map for the final scenario, a it would get quite complicated, and there are no deployment rules or layout specifics so people will have their own arenas anyway.
hope you enjoy, of course if think anything should be changed do say, though please don't make it too big for my sanity's sake
Cheers mate, was pretty fun to do as well! There is another one on the previous page if you are interested. It is for the Battle of Five Armies scenario.
Got some additional content done. Appendix I is the maps, which look great. If and when you get the others done then let me know, there's no hurry!
Appendix II is notes on including this stuff in other armies. I've included an amalgamated list of Elrond's Household from AUJ and the Rivendell Free Peoples stuff, an All-Of-The-Dwarves list (Iron Hills, Erebor and Durin's Folk from TFP), and then just added stuff like bats, trolls and War Beasts to the Mordor list.
Any other ideas on extra stuff we could put in? Any profiles that need fixing/could use alternate versions but don't fit in the main army list? Thranduil needs a Elk, for sure.
I know i have been gone for a while and some of these mistakes are on things i suggested but i just had a chance to really rip through these.
The biggest thing is that we should NOT replace anything that has already been done but we should be reusing gw profiles. Those should just be refered to, NEVER copied. Listing the book and page the profiles can be found on is ok.
I went through and highlighted the issue and put a note next to it with suggested updates and things we should refer to when writing these rules. I did this because it was easier then putting it all in a post. Let me know what you guys think and if I am way off on some of these.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Top notch stuff guys. This is something that will be printed out and carried around to be used.
The biggest thing is that we should NOT replace anything that has already been done but we should be reusing gw profiles. Those should just be refered to, NEVER copied. Listing the book and page the profiles can be found on is ok.
Can't download the document on my tablet so I'll take a look at that later, but as to the part quoted above, if you're saying what I think you are (that we should cut things that GW have already done, like Gundabad Orcs, Laketown militia) then I disagree. Ideally, this supplement should be useable entirely on its own/with the free GW stuff from BL, so I don't want people to have to go out and buy DoS/Mordor/Free Peoples/whatever books to be able to use the main rules in here. In the new draft I'm adding some 'expanded army lits' that adds stuff to already-in-print books, but that's just as an extra.
Of course, if I've misunderstood and you think we should just add in a box saying 'may also take X, Y and Z from Sourcebook A', then yeah, that's fine.
The biggest thing is that we should NOT replace anything that has already been done but we should be reusing gw profiles. Those should just be refered to, NEVER copied. Listing the book and page the profiles can be found on is ok.
Can't download the document on my tablet so I'll take a look at that later, but as to the part quoted above, if you're saying what I think you are (that we should cut things that GW have already done, like Gundabad Orcs, Laketown militia) then I disagree. Ideally, this supplement should be useable entirely on its own/with the free GW stuff from BL, so I don't want people to have to go out and buy DoS/Mordor/Free Peoples/whatever books to be able to use the main rules in here. In the new draft I'm adding some 'expanded army lits' that adds stuff to already-in-print books, but that's just as an extra.
Of course, if I've misunderstood and you think we should just add in a box saying 'may also take X, Y and Z from Sourcebook A', then yeah, that's fine.
Thats exactly what im saying. I dont think that laketown militia should ever have 2 profiles. They are just laketown militia. Also they will need other books regardless. The only one that needs to be paid for is the desolation of smaug this last one is a free pdf.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also if profiles are already created for these things then they should be used as referance
Hmm, I certainly see where you're coming from, but I do stand by my thoughts that you should be able to use this supplement entirely on its own or only with the free stuff. In the case of Laketown Militia our profile is a little different, having more relevance to the overall list with the rule interaction with the Refugees, and in the case of Gundabad Orcs our profile is also rather different.
I think having this as a standing supplement is a decent idea, if there was two profiles in the same supplement then I think that would be an issue. If the profile is different then I dont see an issue
I also seem to have missed the gw gundabad orc profile, what book or download is it in ?
Paradigm wrote: Gundabads have rules in DoS book, I think, but they're rather different from the one here.
the thing i see about that is should they be so different? I dont think they should.
My argument that they should come from the fact that the ones in our supplement have more context within the army list. As far as I know, the Gundabad Orc profile in DoS is both S4 and D5 base, so rolls both the Orc types we have into one, which does the opposite of what I'm trying to do, create an army list that is as varied as possible. Same with the Laketown Militia, ours have an interaction with the Refugees that the other version doesn't, so ours fit better within the army as a whole.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Namiel: had a look at the changes you propose, my thoughts are below:
Spoiler:
Aside from the replacing profiles as that's being discussed already, my responses to the suggested changes:
Iron Hills Warriors: Wording changes will be done
Kingsguard: The pair of Hand Weapons is just represented as the 2A base and the option for the different Strikes. As there's no explicit rules for 2 Hand Weapons, it's easier to just add it in the profile
IH Captain: will edit wording/options as suggested.
Dain: I'm not sure why the boar should be moved to Wargear rather than options. Other heroes with foot and mounted varieties just have Horse ect as options.
Laketown: Will edit Refugees' Flee rule, just a typo on my part. I'm not sure Bain's rule is too good, it only affects two guys, one who is mediocre at best and one who has C6 anyway, so it's only a minor buff.
Gundabad Orc: Seeing as Morannons are S4 D5 for 7 points, I don't think Gundabads are undercosted withS4 D4 at 6 points. I didn't give them heavy armour as the Moria Orcs have that already; I want them to function differently.
Goblin Merc: it has the same stats as a 5 point Orc, so is 5 points
Warg Outriders: They are basically mounted Orc Trackers, so lack the option for Shields and will get dropped to D3 in exchange for a bow base and 4+ shoot.
Olog-Hai: has already undergone a heavy edit, so I'll see what you think of that
Siege Troll: It does have a Mordor Troll statline (F value has already been fixed), I don't think it should pay for the chance to pay for upgrades
Mountain Troll: The Howdah rules are under the Siege Troll entry, just with a higher cost and capacity here.
War Bats: Different rules and style to Bat Swarms from Moria, so no need to reference those.
War Beast: Great War Beast has had a heavy edit already, I'll see about upping the cost, but for the stats being the same as an unarmoured Goblin, I think it's fair at 4ppm.
Thanks for the feedback, feel free to elaborate if I've missed anything
Seeing as it is an unendorsed by GW supplement, there are no real worries about using or editing profiles imo, especially as it lets people use one supplement where everything fits and is balanced against each other and don't have to worry about record keeping as much.
Anyway, here is the promised Battle of Dale map, Thorin's charge to follow shortly...
Fantastic, I'll get that added in! For Thorin's Charge, you could just take a section of the BotFA map and add notes to that, it's the same battlefield, after all!
Cool beans! Yeah good idea, might edit it a bit but will keep the general structure. Off to work i go!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well that was quick! Only 15 minutes and here is the finished map. Using the BotFA one was useful, to say the least! right here it is, the final one unless you want another doing, which I would be more than happy to do!
Paradigm wrote: Gundabads have rules in DoS book, I think, but they're rather different from the one here.
the thing i see about that is should they be so different? I dont think they should.
My argument that they should come from the fact that the ones in our supplement have more context within the army list. As far as I know, the Gundabad Orc profile in DoS is both S4 and D5 base, so rolls both the Orc types we have into one, which does the opposite of what I'm trying to do, create an army list that is as varied as possible. Same with the Laketown Militia, ours have an interaction with the Refugees that the other version doesn't, so ours fit better within the army as a whole.
Fair enough. I see your point on making a list that has its own synergy. For me i think the challange is to make a list that synergizes with whats currently out there. Either way what is done is REALLY good. Not taking anything away from that, at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Namiel: had a look at the changes you propose, my thoughts are below:
Spoiler:
Aside from the replacing profiles as that's being discussed already, my responses to the suggested changes:
Iron Hills Warriors: Wording changes will be done
Kingsguard: The pair of Hand Weapons is just represented as the 2A base and the option for the different Strikes. As there's no explicit rules for 2 Hand Weapons, it's easier to just add it in the profile
IH Captain: will edit wording/options as suggested.
Dain: I'm not sure why the boar should be moved to Wargear rather than options. Other heroes with foot and mounted varieties just have Horse ect as options. fair enough
Laketown: Will edit Refugees' Flee rule, just a typo on my part. I'm not sure Bain's rule is too good, it only affects two guys, one who is mediocre at best and one who has C6 anyway, so it's only a minor buff.
Gundabad Orc: Seeing as Morannons are S4 D5 for 7 points, I don't think Gundabads are undercosted withS4 D4 at 6 points. I didn't give them heavy armour as the Moria Orcs have that already; I want them to function differently. fair enough on the points but the reason i say that the gundabad should have the heavy armor is because in the movie and book that is how they are portrayed. Giving them heavy armor and str 4 with fight 3 and c2 at 7pts makes them comperable to uruk hai at f4 str4 c3 at 8pts
Goblin Merc: it has the same stats as a 5 point Orc, so is 5 pointsgoblins are weak, crappy fighters. having the same stats as an orc makes them no different. let the gobblins be different.
Warg Outriders: They are basically mounted Orc Trackers, so lack the option for Shields and will get dropped to D3 in exchange for a bow base and 4+ shoot.
Olog-Hai: has already undergone a heavy edit, so I'll see what you think of that fair enough
Siege Troll: It does have a Mordor Troll statline (F value has already been fixed), I don't think it should pay for the chance to pay for upgradeswhy would anyone ever take a mordor troll over this then? i see no cons to taking them over mordor trolls
Mountain Troll: The Howdah rules are under the Siege Troll entry, just with a higher cost and capacity here.
War Bats: Different rules and style to Bat Swarms from Moria, so no need to reference those.
War Beast: Great War Beast has had a heavy edit already, I'll see about upping the cost, but for the stats being the same as an unarmoured Goblin, I think it's fair at 4ppm. why take gobblins if these have such better options? i see no cons to taking them over gobblins
Thanks for the feedback, feel free to elaborate if I've missed anything
I left a few notes in red above. What does everyone think?
Putting Gundabads at S4 D5 base and 7ppm is basically making them Morannon Orcs, and also making Moria Orcs pretty much redundant as they are lower S but the same D and only a point cheaper. I appreciate that maybe it would be truer to the film to have them D5 base, but I like the idea of having tougher orcs and stronger orcs, but separate rather than in the same profile as honestly I think Orcs should still be cheap and cheerful troops rather than having multiple 'above average' stats. Having the 2 profiles and the Mordor Orc option gives you the chance to specialise your Orc troops, but each also has positives and drawbacks so you actually need to think about which you'd rather have; greater killing power or greater toughness.
What would you suggest for a 4-point Goblin statline that still has armour (as this is what sets the Goblin Mercs apart)? Seeing as unarmoured Goblin Town Goblins are already 4 points, and +1D shoud mean +1 points, I can't see how you could make them worse and still different from Goblin Town Goblins.
War Trolls: If you weren't using any of the upgrades, a Mordor Troll is just as good and the same price. If I up the price, you've then got the issue that you're paying more for the same base stats, which is a bigger problem in my eyes. But I'm open to a concensus here.
War Beasts are tricky. On one hand, I want the profile to be a 'one size fits all', but I don't want it to be abusable and just run everything as a variation of 'War Beast' tailored to a role. At the same time, if I price it too high for its base stats, then it just becomes useless. I think I've edited it up to 5 points in the last one, not sure what more I can do without going over the line and making them too expensive for what you get. If anyone has ideas on this, I'm all ears.
Captain: Map looks fine, but shouldn't the Evil Deployment go all the way to the centre line, 24" in? I know you've got that marked, but the line seems to be in the wrong place. Not an issue if you don't have time to fix it, as the measurements are all correct, but it would be great if you could.
And once that's done, I think we're ready to rock with V2.0!
Paradigm wrote: Putting Gundabads at S4 D5 base and 7ppm is basically making them Morannon Orcs, and also making Moria Orcs pretty much redundant as they are lower S but the same D and only a point cheaper. I appreciate that maybe it would be truer to the film to have them D5 base, but I like the idea of having tougher orcs and stronger orcs, but separate rather than in the same profile as honestly I think Orcs should still be cheap and cheerful troops rather than having multiple 'above average' stats. Having the 2 profiles and the Mordor Orc option gives you the chance to specialise your Orc troops, but each also has positives and drawbacks so you actually need to think about which you'd rather have; greater killing power or greater toughness.
I see your point. I dont disagree with you. Im looking at it as with isengard you have uruk(elite 8 pts) orc(non elite, cheap) one is better the other is more numerous. That situation allows for more wide range in force numbers. Both orcs moria and gundabad costing the same doesnt allow for much flux in the numbers game. BUT the list as is and your point of having pros and cons of each with them being the same points is valid. Since you feel quite strongly about it and that this set up with the orcs is good(just not my way) i will say keep it as is.
What would you suggest for a 4-point Goblin statline that still has armour (as this is what sets the Goblin Mercs apart)? Seeing as unarmoured Goblin Town Goblins are already 4 points, and +1D shoud mean +1 points, I can't see how you could make them worse and still different from Goblin Town Goblins.
Fight value 2/6+? they still have the d4 and s3 but a fight lower then the average human, dwarf, or orc. Dropping a fight value is worth the points reduction. For me i see goblin mercs as russian conscripts.
War Trolls: If you weren't using any of the upgrades, a Mordor Troll is just as good and the same price. If I up the price, you've then got the issue that you're paying more for the same base stats, which is a bigger problem in my eyes. But I'm open to a concensus here.
if you arent using the options then you take the mordor troll then. I really dont know thats just my opinion of the matter so id see what the community says.
War Beasts are tricky. On one hand, I want the profile to be a 'one size fits all', but I don't want it to be abusable and just run everything as a variation of 'War Beast' tailored to a role. At the same time, if I price it too high for its base stats, then it just becomes useless. I think I've edited it up to 5 points in the last one, not sure what more I can do without going over the line and making them too expensive for what you get. If anyone has ideas on this, I'm all ears.
5 points is great, id leave it
Captain: Map looks fine, but shouldn't the Evil Deployment go all the way to the centre line, 24" in? I know you've got that marked, but the line seems to be in the wrong place. Not an issue if you don't have time to fix it, as the measurements are all correct, but it would be great if you could.
And once that's done, I think we're ready to rock with V2.0!
F2 Goblins at 4ppm is doable, and also allows greater variation in numbers due to the wider gap with Orcs. So mission accomplished there.
I think the troll thing is a bit of a non-issue, really. You either take the upgrades, paying for them as you go, or you don't and you take a War Troll or Mordor troll and get identical stats for the same cost. Either way, you get a troll and you get what you pay for.
Paradigm wrote: F2 Goblins at 4ppm is doable, and also allows greater variation in numbers due to the wider gap with Orcs. So mission accomplished there.
I think the troll thing is a bit of a non-issue, really. You either take the upgrades, paying for them as you go, or you don't and you take a War Troll or Mordor troll and get identical stats for the same cost. Either way, you get a troll and you get what you pay for.
Major changes:
Reworked Dwarf Warrior options; it became apparent they would be paying waaay too much for Crossbows at 12ppm, so they are now 8 points base and with Shield/[pike/crossbow options at 2 points apiece
Mahud-style Impale rule added to Ramriders, costs adjusted accordingly
Great Beast and Ogre (formerly Olog-Hai) have significantly reworked profiles
Various stat fixes
Added scenario maps, expansions for existing army lists and a 5000 point mega-scenario courtesy of a One Ring user
I can't manage to download it on my tablet so when I get on my PC I'll check it out quick question, has the one ring community been a good help ? I was thinking of joining up !
Yeah, I've had some great feedback over there on this project, and as a community it seems to be an active and friendly one. There's also some great painters/modellers over there that don't post on here or other sites, so it's well worth signing up and checking that out.
Posted this in the wrong thread originally, but bringing it over here for completeness:
I'm just about to start editing on V3, here's my fix list (which I'm hoping will be the final one)
- Rename Moria Orcs to DG Orcs
- Lower catapult cost on Triioll to 50-60 points
- Bats get -1F unless another is nearby
- Add note that external heroes (the chaps from the GW supplement) can lead Warbands.
Anyone got anything else to add/alter? If not, I'm thinking this will be the work finished. I was asked about adding little fluff descriptors for each profile, but I think I'll only add that after the rules are 100% sorted.
at the body shop DOUBLED the price of the part for markup. ![[Disk]](/dakkaforum/templates/default/images/icon_disk.gif){kind=icon}
). So I'm not sure that exact setup would work Kingsguard on the side to swoop in and take out Supporting enemy models/go for trapping is how I've been using them so far, but I'm going to test them as front-rank fighters and see if they do any better there. I'll probably still run Shieldwalls and the KG with Dain for fluffiness, but I can see the other version doing well.
