Just read a few rumours which give food for thought. I am far from gullible but they seem credible so just wanted to post my thoughts.
it seems significant to me for a start that end times book 3 and 4 contain basically the two armies from island of blood, which suggests to me that GW is trying to flog as many IoB boxed sets before 9th hits. therefore i don't see how the rules can change that drastically, prob just an overhaul like 40k 7th.
I'm definitely getting into WFB this year, got a Legions of Chaos army planned but unsure as to whether i should learn 8th edition too much if that makes sense, i might just be better off learning a new ruleset from scratch (which, in my opinion, will be more like 40k, the rules of which i am very familiar with)
regarding rumours of only 6 factions i can only speculate this
Chaos/Skaven
Humans/dwarfs
Elves
Orcs and Goblins/Ogre Kingdoms
Undead
lizardmen

seems a bit drastic?

any thoughts??

The rumours of factions I've seen (bearing in mind they're rumours) is:
Chaos
Undead
Skaven
Orcs and Goblins
Humans
Elves

I don't think it's significant that books 3 and 4 are the armies from IoB, but even if it is them trying to sell more IoB that doesn't mean the rules won't change drastically. The rumours, and while you should obviously take them with salt, they are from people who are generally pretty on ball with what's coming in warhammer, and they're saying its a massive change. Most of the model range invalidated, completely new ruleset (probably more skirmishy, round bases have been mentioned).

Obviously there's a (maybe large) chance that it's complete rubbish, but I would say, do you really want to risk starting an army that in a few months could be completely obsolete? I think it might be safer to just hold off for a bit until we know a bit more what's happening.

I was about to start fantasy too, and I don't want to take the risk now, financially I can't really afford to because I can't guarantee that if it goes tits up, I'll be able to find people still playing 8th, because I have a hard time finding people who play as it is now.

fair points well made. yes lots of salt but i wouldn't put it past GW at the mo. however i still don't think that they'll cut the range by that much. that would alienate so many people and i think the new CEO is smarter than that. so we might see a lot of the range go to webstore only?
with regards to factions i really don't think they'll get rid of Lizardmen, especially as i think they will feature in End Times soon

Lizardmen will be part of the fluff in the Skaven book, they won't get their own book or new models or anything, and the fluff so far already speaks of an exodus, which I wasn't worried about before but with this new rumour doesn't sound very promising.

I'd like to think they wouldn't cut the range that much and the new CEO is smarter, but honestly the sheer fact it's GW almost makes me believe it. Any other company and it would just be ludicrous but GW could do ANYTHING and it wouldn't surprise me too much.

It could be a load of nonsense, I hope it is, even if it's true I hope the models can still be used in whatever springs from the ashes of Warhammer, but I don't think I want to take the risk until we know more.

Quite looking forward to this WFB marines stuff arriving.

just read the fluff in White Dwarf 47 about lizardmen exodus so it does look as though theyre in for a big change however i still can't see such a popular range just disappearing.
i am happy that the army i have chosen will be valid seeing as its in an End Times book.

Most of these rumors sound like bs to me.

Lizardmen are too neat to be eliminated.

Also it seems like they're a seller too, so I don't think it makes sense, as others have said.

All my stuff on ebay NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lizardmen are too unique and visually outstanding to just be . . . shifted off to the side! :(

Really butthurt about this so far, my rather large Lizard army is just going to be marginalized by GW, apparently.

I'm not convinced Lizardmen are going the way of the dodo- they're a relatively unique force in a game of generic fantasy tropes.

However, a lot of the lore is pointing to the Slann abandoning the fantasy world, so that is a bit worrying...

I don't think they are either, I think it's just a rumor. There's no real reason to do it.

My speculation:

The world is grouped into 6 "factions," but in the way that Space Marines are a "faction" in 40k. Sub-faction distinctions remain, and may get their own armybook / supplement / etc.

Of the 6 speculated factions, 4 are obvious:
1) Undead
2) Chaos
3) Elves

These being the 3 thus far included in the End Times supplements. Also

4) Humans

Being the obvious inclusion that GW is unlikely to simply turf. That leaves 2 more. What could these be? Well the remaining armies are:

- Ogres
- Dwarfs
- Orcs and Goblins
- Lizardmen
- Skaven


That's a lot of factions, and none of them group together easily. Many of them have very new armybooks, and a substantial portion of their line in plastic. They're also amongst the most unique and / or iconic races in WHFB. So what to do?

Thus I would suggest that the final two factions are:

5) Skaven, and
6) Lizardmen

Why? Partly because Skaven is getting the next ET book, and Lizardmen are rumoured to factor heavily into that. But also because they're the most settled and civilized of those races, with the exception of dwarfs (I'll get to them). Ogres are a relatively savage, nomadic mercenary culture. Orcs and Goblins are also semi-nomadic and uncivilized.

So what happens to these? I don't think they qualify as standalone "factions," but I don't think they get written out of the game entirely. Right now there are "Forces of Order" and "Forces of Destruction," but I think in the future that will be replaced by these 6 factions. But now there are also "unaligned" forces, that don't really fit into that equation. The nomadic/mercenary groups fit nicely into that.

OnG lack the sophistication to thrive in a chaotic planar realm. They'd either be forced to live haphazard lives as marauding "pests," essentially, infesting random planar bubbles and spreading through contact with others like an infection. That or become slaves to a race like Skaven.

Ogres become much the same, existing as nomadic mercenaries instead of a settled civilization. However instead of chaotic marauders they're more nomadic invaders / mercenaries.

And dwarfs? I think they become nomadic too. Nearly half the models their last (very recent!) release got were aircraft. There is a rumour from Hastings that a large, airship-type model was in production. If there's truly some sort of mass exodus / calamity then it's unlikely that their holds would survive. Thus I believe that Dwarfs become a nomadic race of airship dwellers. It gives them a distinctive flavour from the old Tolkienesque "live underground in holds" dwarfs, and lets them run with the steampunky theme they've had all along. Also why the hell else give a subterranean race the world's most advanced aircraft?


That gives you 6 settled factions, and a number of wildcard "misc" races, that either get their own book or can be occasionally included into the armies of others.

Interesting I like the sky dwarfs idea
I wonder though how long this shakeup has been in the planning? Cos not so long ago the lizards got a new big beastie from forgeworld, can't remember what it was called now but surely they wouldn't have bothered if they knew that the line was ending

All i know is i am awesome for kitbashing all of my elves.

Just for all you saying that the Lizardmen won't be Squatted because they're a "Unique and iconic take on generic fantasy tropes"- consider this. Signs are strong that Tomb Kings will be phased out pretty much completely in favour of Vampire Counts style 'generic überwald' undead. Tomb Kings are pretty much the only non-Überwald undead faction that even exist outside of Hammer horror films in all of Fantasy as a genre. If they're getting the kibosh, I'd not hold out much hope for your scalies.

Anvildude wrote:
Just for all you saying that the Lizardmen won't be Squatted because they're a "Unique and iconic take on generic fantasy tropes"- consider this. Signs are strong that Tomb Kings will be phased out pretty much completely in favour of Vampire Counts style 'generic überwald' undead. Tomb Kings are pretty much the only non-Überwald undead faction that even exist outside of Hammer horror films in all of Fantasy as a genre. If they're getting the kibosh, I'd not hold out much hope for your scalies.

I think Tomb Kings will get the axe from an individual army concept because (a) they've been historically low sellers and (b) they're fairly similar aesthetically to Vampire Counts. Heck, back in the day any of their unique units (i.e. mummies) were in the VC book, so it makes sense to see them go. Overall, I imagine Undead will become some more meshed concept like the Undead in WoW so that they are *somewhat* more unique than their fantasy tropes.

It's probably the same thing that'll happen with beastmen and daemons- forces that used to be part of one book and got spread out in the hopes of creating army diversity. Lizardmen, I'm not entirely sure where they could go without being axed since they're a relatively independent faction. However, all the newer lore stuff about them flying off into space is concerning...but still, I imagine they'll make it back, even if it's as an expansion product. Perhaps they come back to try to pop all the bubbles?

 Accolade wrote:
I'm not convinced Lizardmen are going the way of the dodo- they're a relatively unique force in a game of generic fantasy tropes.

However, a lot of the lore is pointing to the Slann abandoning the fantasy world, so that is a bit worrying...

I still think something's going to go horribly wrong and the Slaan are going to make it out and the rest of the Lizardmen are going to be stuck behind with no idea what to do. It'll let them drastically alter the faction without removing them entirely or contradicting the exodus.

I forsee

Humans - Brets and empire in 1. - cuts one book

Elves -3 factions rolled into one = 2 books cut

Chaos - roll demons, woc, beatsmen into one book... again cuts out 2 books

undead - roll 2 armies into 1, cutting one book

Greenskins - being greenskins. orks are too iconic for whfb to go
Lizzardmen - same as orcs
Skaven - same as orcks
Dwarves - same as orks
Ogres - maybe be reset to a merc status so all armies could take them.

This means 6 Books are cut in total. That is a LOT.

They don't have to worry about 6 armies... Thus enables them to streamline the other armies and strengthen those ranges..

Makes sense.

Dropping down to 6 is bit too drastic. Dropping 6 makes more sense..

Well, right off the bat you can cut four armies right off the bat without changing the dynamics of the forces that much:

- Tomb Kings and VC *used* to be one book, and the concepts between their armies (minus the Transylvania v. Egypt themes) are pretty simlar
- Beastmen, Daemons, and Warriors of Chaos used to all be in the same book. Putting them back together again just means you go right back to the old system
- Bretonnia and the Empire, while being interesting in individual lore, can easily be combined within the same book...especially since a lot of the Bretonnian army is redundant (ie Knights of the Realm, knights errant, grail knights, and questing knights are almost the exact same kit minus some bits and baubles)

If GW decides to go the unified Elf direction, that's two more armies gone right off the bat. We're now at 9 armies remaining:

- Dwarfs
- Ogres
- Orks
- Unified Elves
- Chaos
- Undead
- Humans
- Skaven
- Lizardmen

I'm assuming Dwarfs will join humans (especially if the End Times stuff about them getting severely thrashed is right) and Ogres can join either humans or Orks easily enough, so then we're down to seven. I'm not sure how they would shrink it from here, unless the rumors about Lizardmen disappearing for a time (or altogether) are real. Still, I'd expect they'd at least make an appearance in some sort of additional rules, so it might just be they aren't in the preliminary group.

Maybe the Dwarfs, Humans and Lizardmen can just all team up! And go to war using ancient Aztec holy blackpowder flying machines.

And the guns shoot hammers that have grudges carved on them... and there are snakes wrapped around the hammers also.

I just can't see a massive overhaul of the flagship brand being feasible. Even if I put my capitalism hat on, it just doesn't make sense.

I'm still all for getting a petition together...

You know it wouldn't be the first time a company had to be saved by investors. American Motorcycle maker Harley Davidson was in serious financial trouble in he 80s thanks to companies like Honda, but a company called FMC stepped in and saved the day. True they suffered a bit initially, but after awhile things evened out and HD was able to buyout FMC, regaining control of the company. They still make Harleys...

Of course GW could go the way of the OTHER American Motorcycle Company...

Personally, I think they will pull a storm of chaos on this whole end times and yank it back.

So that 9th edition will have all of the races and GW will believe they will make money hand over fist for not destroying the world....

darkcloak wrote:
I just can't see a massive overhaul of the flagship brand being feasible. Even if I put my capitalism hat on, it just doesn't make sense....

Flagship brand? You mean 40K?

Asteroidhammer Fantasy isn't going to happen. There is no point in killing a game that is on the up swing thanks to the end times.

WHFB is in a temporary upswing with the (albeit very interesting) End Times campaign going on. However, this can't be maintained indefinitely, and the issues that were preventing new players from joining the game (too expensive to start a new army, fiddly ranking systems with large units serving largely as wound counters) will still be present after the campaign ends.

I think they're using the End Times to drum up interest in the game to prime the field for the big changes to come, with the hope that enough people will be interested in WHFB when it undergoes its big changes.

Why would they change the entire game to get more interest when the few things holding it back could be fixed as additions or starter versions of the current game.

I don't really believe the panic that they are going to scrap lots of plastic kits or armies completely.

Changes are coming but not to the point people's entire armies or a large percentage will be invalid IMO.

In my opinion the biggest problem with fantasy has been LOTR/The Hobbit. If you were to walk into a GW without any prior knowledge you would see two products outwardly very similar (especially because Fantasy draws upon my Tolkien tropes.)

And nothing is more confusing to a potential customer then offering them two slightly different products when they are not sure which choice they should be making.

I would hope to see these rumored changes to 9th edition to actually be the replacement in store to the Hobbit range. Something totally set apart from Warhammer and 40k and also designed as an introduction to the hobby (with smaller model counts and easier rules).

I don't want to see Warhammer as we know it disappear :(

 Bottle wrote:
In my opinion the biggest problem with fantasy has been LOTR/The Hobbit. If you were to walk into a GW without any prior knowledge you would see two products outwardly very similar (especially because Fantasy draws upon my Tolkien tropes.)

And nothing is more confusing to a potential customer then offering them two slightly different products when they are not sure which choice they should be making.

Well if they walk in to a GW store they'll typically have the staff there to explain the differences and push the product, it wouldn't surprise me if staff are instructed to push people in the direction of WHFB more than The Hobbit these days.

 toasteroven wrote:
Maybe the Dwarfs, Humans and Lizardmen can just all team up! And go to war using ancient Aztec holy blackpowder flying machines.

And the guns shoot hammers that have grudges carved on them... and there are snakes wrapped around the hammers also.

I have to admit, I think this idea would be cool. Don't thnk it would happen though.

Pretty sure hobbit's going to go away in a few years. It's a shame in some ways, because out of the "three lines" It's the absolute cheapest one to set up and play. Whenever they release a new model for Hobbit, it's a finecast model, it's not plastic. That doesn't sound like long term planning..unless it's just cheaper to make a resin model mold as opposed to a plastic one. I'd be surprised if the hobbit/LOTR molds see as much use as the 40k/WHFB ones..


I really see Bret's being wrapped in with The The Empire, and possibly dwarves as well.

I can see Orges and Orks & Goblins being wrapped together

Or maybe we get something like a book of roving band of mercenaries, like the lizardmen, after the slaan left? I know Dogs of War used to be a thing, way back when...

I really don't know.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
In my opinion the biggest problem with fantasy has been LOTR/The Hobbit. If you were to walk into a GW without any prior knowledge you would see two products outwardly very similar (especially because Fantasy draws upon my Tolkien tropes.)

And nothing is more confusing to a potential customer then offering them two slightly different products when they are not sure which choice they should be making.

Well if they walk in to a GW store they'll typically have the staff there to explain the differences and push the product, it wouldn't surprise me if staff are instructed to push people in the direction of WHFB more than The Hobbit these days.

But if you're new to the hobby, any differences explained are going to be largely meaningless. Both games are about Elves, Dwarves, Orcs and Humans fighting with swords, bows and magic.

My main point though is I hope to see the Hobbit dropped now the last movie has come out. For Warhammer to remain largely how it is, and for these rumored changes to be a new product line/game that takes up the Hobbit space in each GW.

 Bottle wrote:
In my opinion the biggest problem with fantasy has been LOTR/The Hobbit. If you were to walk into a GW without any prior knowledge you would see two products outwardly very similar (especially because Fantasy draws upon my Tolkien tropes.)

And nothing is more confusing to a potential customer then offering them two slightly different products when they are not sure which choice they should be making.

I would hope to see these rumored changes to 9th edition to actually be the replacement in store to the Hobbit range. Something totally set apart from Warhammer and 40k and also designed as an introduction to the hobby (with smaller model counts and easier rules).

I don't want to see Warhammer as we know it disappear :(

I agree.

LOTR miantures are very comparable to movie memorabilia my local forbidden planet is selling.. So I think it targets a different market entirely to wargaming.
Someone whose in to lotr movies will buy lotr products that he aint guna have to paint themself.
Like marvel "toys" and other such.

 Schlyne wrote:
Whenever they release a new model for Hobbit, it's a finecast model, it's not plastic. That doesn't sound like long term planning..unless it's just cheaper to make a resin model mold as opposed to a plastic one.

It is, in low quantity. The Hobbit doesn't sell in huge numbers. Making a plastic mold is more expensive because you need to engineer it to provide uniform pressure, with no air pockets & take into account that injection molded plastic has a push pull effect. The hot plastic pushes into the mold but pulls back as it cools. You need to make sure the detail isn't lost in the pull. So for smaller numbers, resin is cheaper.

 Bottle wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
In my opinion the biggest problem with fantasy has been LOTR/The Hobbit. If you were to walk into a GW without any prior knowledge you would see two products outwardly very similar (especially because Fantasy draws upon my Tolkien tropes.)

And nothing is more confusing to a potential customer then offering them two slightly different products when they are not sure which choice they should be making.

Well if they walk in to a GW store they'll typically have the staff there to explain the differences and push the product, it wouldn't surprise me if staff are instructed to push people in the direction of WHFB more than The Hobbit these days.

But if you're new to the hobby, any differences explained are going to be largely meaningless. Both games are about Elves, Dwarves, Orcs and Humans fighting with swords, bows and magic.

People know what The Hobbit is, I don't think it's that hard for them to understand "This is a game that lets you replay scenes from the movies, here's a sample game set up on this table over here, this other game is another Fantasy game where you play with regiments like this sample game that is set up on that table". I'm sure it could potentially cause confusion, but really, not so much so for it to be considered a major problem, certainly not the "biggest" problem. I think any salesman worth his salt would be able to sell either system to an interested player with money, I don't imagine too people who walked in intending to spend money to be walking out buying nothing because they were too confused.

My main point though is I hope to see the Hobbit dropped now the last movie has come out. For Warhammer to remain largely how it is, and for these rumored changes to be a new product line/game that takes up the Hobbit space in each GW.

I wished GW actually supported The Hobbit instead of just giving us a crappy range of overpriced models. There's plenty of space for 40k and WHFB to live alongside other games like LOTR, Necromunda, Mordhiem, Epic, Warmaster, etc.

As it is I don't know whether I want GW to kill The Hobbit or not, I wanted it to do well, but GW have screwed it so bad I'm torn. I like the models, I like the rules, but no one plays it and the models are overpriced and too small of a range.

Oh derp!

I just realized what they're planning!

Supplements!

Wanna play Elves? Buy the Elf book! Wanna play em dark? Buy the Dark Elves supplement!

Goddam, they'll probably digital releases only too!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I may need an extraneous exclamation mark filter...

darkcloak wrote:


Goddam, they'll probably digital releases only too!

My problem with this is I fething HATE their digital book versions. I don't own any idevices so ibook is useless to me. Plus I don't want the ibook version I want an electronic version of the physical book. I'd love a pdf but due to lack of DRM support that won't happen, though I don't see why they can't just use the files they send to the printer to make an epub or mobi.

6 factions

chaos, demons, beastmen
humans, dwarves (this is the only place lizardmen could go that would make sense fluffwise) but probably wont have lizardmen
wood elf, high elf, dark elf
tomb kings, vampires
orcs and goblins, ogres
skaven by themselves I supose?

Heh. Skaven and LIzardmen?

hmmm
just read the codex apocrypha again in White Dwarf 47 about the Lizardmen, exodus bla bla...
one thing that popped out was when the Slann's spirit form gets near the tear in reality and the (i presume) Chaos god's ask him to join them...
what if the Slann escape and the leaderless Lizardmen are then enslaved by chaos?
Chaos Lizardmen anyone?

My apologies if someone has already pointed this out

 Argive wrote:
I forsee

Humans - Brets and empire in 1. - cuts one book

Elves -3 factions rolled into one = 2 books cut

Chaos - roll demons, woc, beatsmen into one book... again cuts out 2 books

undead - roll 2 armies into 1, cutting one book

Greenskins - being greenskins. orks are too iconic for whfb to go
Lizzardmen - same as orcs
Skaven - same as orcks
Dwarves - same as orks
Ogres - maybe be reset to a merc status so all armies could take them.

This means 6 Books are cut in total. That is a LOT.

They don't have to worry about 6 armies... Thus enables them to streamline the other armies and strengthen those ranges..

Makes sense.

Dropping down to 6 is bit too drastic. Dropping 6 makes more sense..

This part makes the most sense DROPPING 6 and NOT ONLY 6 ARMIES

I would be interested in seeing whta happens with this. Might make the armies easier to start if they combine 2 or 3 armies in 1 book @ the price of the end times soft covers?

From what I've been told about how End Times is shaping up, Lizardmen fit right in with the Elves goal, and Skaven fall in with Chaos. Ogres would be right at home with Orcs and Goblins, and Dwarves with Empire and Brettonia. I think a big part of this is trying to get over what factions used to be individually, and where GW is aligning them with the End Times. Also remember the rumours include that new faction of 'Fantasy Space Marines'. If they really want to push these guys as hard as they push Space Marines, they will get a book themselves, guaranteed.

Empire, Brettonia, Dwarves
High Elves, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Lizardmen
Warriors of Chaos, Daemons of Chaos, Beastmen, Skaven
Orcs and Goblins, Ogre Kingdoms
Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings
New 'Fantasy Space Marines' race that's been rumoured

A fantasy "space marines" thing isn't what they mean by a flagship army.
Its just a race of good guys, who are gunna be super religious or something. They won't get their own book that wouldn't make any sense in my opinion anyways

 Accolade wrote:
Well, right off the bat you can cut four armies right off the bat without changing the dynamics of the forces that much:

- Tomb Kings and VC *used* to be one book, and the concepts between their armies (minus the Transylvania v. Egypt themes) are pretty simlar
- Beastmen, Daemons, and Warriors of Chaos used to all be in the same book. Putting them back together again just means you go right back to the old system
- Bretonnia and the Empire, while being interesting in individual lore, can easily be combined within the same book...especially since a lot of the Bretonnian army is redundant (ie Knights of the Realm, knights errant, grail knights, and questing knights are almost the exact same kit minus some bits and baubles)

If GW decides to go the unified Elf direction, that's two more armies gone right off the bat. We're now at 9 armies remaining:

- Dwarfs
- Ogres
- Orks
- Unified Elves
- Chaos
- Undead
- Humans
- Skaven
- Lizardmen

I'm assuming Dwarfs will join humans (especially if the End Times stuff about them getting severely thrashed is right) and Ogres can join either humans or Orks easily enough, so then we're down to seven. I'm not sure how they would shrink it from here, unless the rumors about Lizardmen disappearing for a time (or altogether) are real. Still, I'd expect they'd at least make an appearance in some sort of additional rules, so it might just be they aren't in the preliminary group.

From everything I read and saw, I would say:

Humans (Empire, Bretonnia, Dwarfs)
Undead (Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings)
Orcs and Goblins will have Ogres
Elves (the three races)
Lizardmen
Chaos (Beastmen, Warriors, Deamons, Skaven).

 chiefbigredman wrote:
A fantasy "space marines" thing isn't what they mean by a flagship army.
Its just a race of good guys, who are gunna be super religious or something. They won't get their own book that wouldn't make any sense in my opinion anyways

Surely we won't see TWO human factions, not when the other races are getting squashed together
more likely it'll turn out to be a Legion of Humans a la Legions of Chaos and Legions of undead
perhaps they have come to venerate mr Franz as a deity?
personally i think that could make for a very playable army when you take all the decent elements of Empire, Brets and Dwarfs

 Fellwing wrote:

personally i think that could make for a very playable army when you take all the decent elements of Empire, Brets and Dwarfs

If by playable you mean stupid, yes. Imagine how much artillery you can field with dwarf cannons & organ guns, empire cannons & hell blasters with steam tanks & a dwarf shield wall in front of it. That is not an army I would like to play against. I mean people cry about 8 bolt throwers...

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 Fellwing wrote:

personally i think that could make for a very playable army when you take all the decent elements of Empire, Brets and Dwarfs

If by playable you mean stupid, yes. Imagine how much artillery you can field with dwarf cannons & organ guns, empire cannons & hell blasters with steam tanks & a dwarf shield wall in front of it. That is not an army I would like to play against. I mean people cry about 8 bolt throwers...

If they had some kind of Warmachine limit then? I don't know what would be balanced but I agree they'd have to do something about the artillery or it would be stupid.

 Bottle wrote:
In my opinion the biggest problem with fantasy has been LOTR/The Hobbit. If you were to walk into a GW without any prior knowledge you would see two products outwardly very similar (especially because Fantasy draws upon my Tolkien tropes.)

And nothing is more confusing to a potential customer then offering them two slightly different products when they are not sure which choice they should be making.

I would hope to see these rumored changes to 9th edition to actually be the replacement in store to the Hobbit range. Something totally set apart from Warhammer and 40k and also designed as an introduction to the hobby (with smaller model counts and easier rules).

I don't want to see Warhammer as we know it disappear :(

What I always found mind boggling about the LOTR/Hobbit debacle. . . was that they didn't use the same rules as Warhammer, and weren't the same scale. It seemed like a no-brainer to use LOTR as a draw in for warhammer. I liked the LOTR rules. . . but from a business sense it made no sense that they built an entirely separate rules set for LOTR, and then made the minis not really interchangeable.

 argonak wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
In my opinion the biggest problem with fantasy has been LOTR/The Hobbit. If you were to walk into a GW without any prior knowledge you would see two products outwardly very similar (especially because Fantasy draws upon my Tolkien tropes.)

And nothing is more confusing to a potential customer then offering them two slightly different products when they are not sure which choice they should be making.

I would hope to see these rumored changes to 9th edition to actually be the replacement in store to the Hobbit range. Something totally set apart from Warhammer and 40k and also designed as an introduction to the hobby (with smaller model counts and easier rules).

I don't want to see Warhammer as we know it disappear :(

What I always found mind boggling about the LOTR/Hobbit debacle. . . was that they didn't use the same rules as Warhammer, and weren't the same scale. It seemed like a no-brainer to use LOTR as a draw in for warhammer. I liked the LOTR rules. . . but from a business sense it made no sense that they built an entirely separate rules set for LOTR, and then made the minis not really interchangeable.

In their agreement with new line cinema they had to use true scaling not "Heroic" scaling. That is why Smaug is so big & $500. GW wanted to use a different scale & sought permission to do so to make a more affordable plastic kit but new line said no.

Here's a theory of mine:

At the end of Khaine, Lileath(Lady of the Lake) tells Araloth that the new pocket dimension that she is sending him to start over is guarded by the spirits of Bretonnia's most noble knights. Its also said in Glottkin that Leon's crusade to help Altdorf essentially cleaned out Bretonnia's remaining Knightly population with the exception of Grail Knights, Bretonnia's most noble knights.

Could this new faction of "fantasy space marines" just be another incarnation of Grail Knights, who leave Bretonnia to protect her new realm at Lileath's request? Perhaps their spirits are given physical form again and these are the new faction. Possibly an Elf/Bretonnia combined Army, separate from the Host of the Eternity King?

Like I said, just a theory. I'm excited, either way. Loving the new directions Warhammer is taking!

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 Fellwing wrote:

personally i think that could make for a very playable army when you take all the decent elements of Empire, Brets and Dwarfs

If by playable you mean stupid, yes. Imagine how much artillery you can field with dwarf cannons & organ guns, empire cannons & hell blasters with steam tanks & a dwarf shield wall in front of it. That is not an army I would like to play against. I mean people cry about 8 bolt throwers...

If they had some kind of Warmachine limit then? I don't know what would be balanced but I agree they'd have to do something about the artillery or it would be stupid.

no need to throw stones...
was thinking more from an aesthetical point of view anyway. Also if what we are hearing is true, then a lot of units will be shelved so maybe they'll be able to balance it out with selected units from each of the factions (i said maybebefore anyone starts)

 nels1031 wrote:
Here's a theory of mine:

At the end of Khaine, Lileath(Lady of the Lake) tells Araloth that the new pocket dimension that she is sending him to start over is guarded by the spirits of Bretonnia's most noble knights. Its also said in Glottkin that Leon's crusade to help Altdorf essentially cleaned out Bretonnia's remaining Knightly population with the exception of Grail Knights, Bretonnia's most noble knights.

Could this new faction of "fantasy space marines" just be another incarnation of Grail Knights, who leave Bretonnia to protect her new realm at Lileath's request? Perhaps their spirits are given physical form again and these are the new faction. Possibly an Elf/Bretonnia combined Army, separate from the Host of the Eternity King?

Like I said, just a theory. I'm excited, either way. Loving the new directions Warhammer is taking!

Hrm. That could be pretty interesting, actually. Basically split Brettonia off a little, maybe combined with Wood Elves? I could see them taking Knights away from the Empire, combining Empire and Dwarves for a Warmachine and Infantry-heavy faction, and then making an 'All Mounted' faction via heavily armoured human knights, deer-mounted Elven archers, etc etc whatever. Mounts add to the armour of the unit, and the imagery of knights is definitely one of 'good guys'.


Alternatively, they make the Lizardmen into the Good Guy race, as a sort of Fantasy Tau thing (because the Tau are the 'least evil guys' in 40k, yet not human)- make them a little less lizardy, a little more tech savvy (for metal armour) and you've got an interesting 'new' race born from the ashes of the old. Maybe even have them go all Dragonborn (dnd, not skyrim) on them.

Anvildude wrote:
[ the Tau are the 'least evil guys' in 40k, yet not human).

I dunno man. It's basically join or die & even if you join, we'll just sterilize you & let your race die a slow extinction if we don't find you useful.

Hey, at least they let you join if you want. Everyone else just kills you if they find you.

There's a slogan for their tourism bureau then. "The Tau Empire: A Kinder, Gentler Genocide. Visit Today!"

Rumor is the factions will be as follows:

1. Combined Undead
2. Combined Chaos
3. Combined Elves
4. Skaven
5.Combined Humans, Dwarves, and Ogres
6. Orcs n Goblins

I believe, personally, that Lizards will be a 7th faction or that Orcs and Skaven will be combined. Ogres with Orcs would be somewhat logical as well, but there is a historical basis for Ogres being with the Humans instead. I also feel that lizards could have been with elves (particularly since dragons and cold ones factor heavily into the elven lore, both of which are in fact lizards), but it doesn't seem likely at this point.

I just can't see a massive overhaul of the flagship brand being feasible. Even if I put my capitalism hat on, it just doesn't make sense.

You're right. Thats why theyre overhauling Fantasy instead of 40k.

Asteroidhammer Fantasy isn't going to happen. There is no point in killing a game that is on the up swing thanks to the end times.

Except for the fact that this is the WHOLE POINT of the End Times?

argonak wrote:What I always found mind boggling about the LOTR/Hobbit debacle. . . was that they didn't use the same rules as Warhammer, and weren't the same scale. It seemed like a no-brainer to use LOTR as a draw in for warhammer. I liked the LOTR rules. . . but from a business sense it made no sense that they built an entirely separate rules set for LOTR, and then made the minis not really interchangeable.

There's no way anyone would have let the LOTR IP to be used alongside the Warhammer IP. Beyond that, the Warhammer rules don't make for good games for recreating scenes from the movies, something the LOTR rules do really well. Beyond that, I'm glad they made a new scale for LOTR, I think the models would have looked rather strange in GW's typical hero scale.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:GW wanted to use a different scale & sought permission to do so to make a more affordable plastic kit but new line said no.

Where did you read/hear that? It sounds like a BS story made up by a shop keeper to me.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:GW wanted to use a different scale & sought permission to do so to make a more affordable plastic kit but new line said no.

Where did you read/hear that? It sounds like a BS story made up by a shop keeper to me.

Some podcast but I dont remember which I listen to a lot.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:GW wanted to use a different scale & sought permission to do so to make a more affordable plastic kit but new line said no.

Where did you read/hear that? It sounds like a BS story made up by a shop keeper to me.

Some podcast but I dont remember which I listen to a lot.

I'm gonna assume it's BS because I don't think anyone in the know would be willing to talk about it (or even more so contractually obliged to not talk about it). I think a lot of stuff gets made up by people trying to explain why something happened and then people just roll with it.

GW could have made it out of plastic at it's current size, it is big, it's not bigger than hundreds of model plastic planes/boats/cars that you'll find if you walk in to any hobby store (which aren't massively cheap either mind you, but a lot less than $500). In Australia, I can buy a 15" by 21" Typhoon for $170AUD that is more detailed than the $550AUD Smaug (it has a detailed engine, cockpit, the interiors of the wings are all modelled, all that good stuff).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:GW wanted to use a different scale & sought permission to do so to make a more affordable plastic kit but new line said no.

Where did you read/hear that? It sounds like a BS story made up by a shop keeper to me.

Some podcast but I dont remember which I listen to a lot.

I'm gonna assume it's BS because I don't think anyone in the know would be willing to talk about it (or even more so contractually obliged to not talk about it). I think a lot of stuff gets made up by people trying to explain why something happened and then people just roll with it.

GW could have made it out of plastic at it's current size, it is big, it's not bigger than hundreds of model plastic planes/boats/cars that you'll find if you walk in to any hobby store (which aren't massively cheap either mind you, but a lot less than $500). In Australia, I can buy a 15" by 21" Typhoon for $170AUD that is more detailed than the $550AUD Smaug (it has a detailed engine, cockpit, the interiors of the wings are all modelled, all that good stuff).

EDIT: I was originally in agreement with Skink about this, but I remembered an older WD back when they used to showcase the Golden Demon awards. I distinctly remember a person who won a silver award in Fantasy but the image was NOT allowed to be shown because it included items from LOTR range. It even had a disclaimer apologizing to the reader about it.

I think GW's pretty crazy (especially these days), but I don't think they were *that* crazy to make the whole thing up.

Thing is, with model aeroplanes and such, it's all cheap, thin, brittle plastic meant only to look good and sit on a shelf- not to be moved around and played with.

True, wargaming models are thicker plastic, but my primary point was that if GW wanted to make it from plastic I'm pretty sure they could have done that even at it's current size (though I'd still expect it to cost $300+).

hmm we seem to have veered off topic slightly.
in What's New Today there are pics form Thanquol book
one shows Ogres with dwarfs vs Skaven
another shows Lizardmen temples taking off
also mr Harden says the Skaven are building a rocket?!
shoot the moon?
maybe some of the rumours we are hearing are true...

Yep looks like Dwarves and Ogres might be allied.

An incredibly aesthetically unpleasing combination

Dwarf: ok, you can fight with us but NO eating anyone under 4ft tall!
Ogre: just a nibble?
Dwarf: Nope!

i would be an anxious, nervous dwarf in that alliance
last warhammer book i read was reiksguard in which ogres are noted for their fondness for dwarf flesh

Ogres fit with anyone, it is their entire culture of being adaptive mercenaries, its why i love them and have collected lots of them since well before they even got their own army book.

Dwarves have hired them in the past as Golgfag's story shows, Dwarves like other races other then Brettonians are not against hiring mercenaries if the situation is right.

Historically, Ogres were in both the Orc and Goblin and Empire books. I could see them splitting them up into both books. Empire getting the more mercenary version with their guns and the like and O&G getting the more tribal "might is right" guys mostly with just basic weapons.

The skaven are now allied with chaos, apparently.

From the description for Warhammer: Thanquol.

Warhammer: Thanquol Book 1 is a 232-page book which details the story of the Skaven during the End Times, chronicling the return of the Verminlords, the rise of Grey Seer Thanquol and the alliance of the Children of the Horned Rat with Archaon, the Everchosen.

 Ciciro wrote:
The skaven are now allied with chaos, apparently.

From the description for Warhammer: Thanquol.

Warhammer: Thanquol Book 1 is a 232-page book which details the story of the Skaven during the End Times, chronicling the return of the Verminlords, the rise of Grey Seer Thanquol and the alliance of the Children of the Horned Rat with Archaon, the Everchosen.

this looks true, i agree
iv seen a piece of artwork with verminlord in foreground and Archaon in background on a sizeable horse.
makes sense as they are fundamentally a force of chaos (skaven, i mean)

 Fellwing wrote:

 Ciciro wrote:
The skaven are now allied with chaos, apparently.

From the description for Warhammer: Thanquol.

Warhammer: Thanquol Book 1 is a 232-page book which details the story of the Skaven during the End Times, chronicling the return of the Verminlords, the rise of Grey Seer Thanquol and the alliance of the Children of the Horned Rat with Archaon, the Everchosen.

this looks true, i agree
iv seen a piece of artwork with verminlord in foreground and Archaon in background on a sizeable horse.
makes sense as they are fundamentally a force of chaos (skaven, i mean)

I mean, isn't the Empire teaming up with Nagash? The whole thing is getting more and more inane, to my mind.

But does this mean they updated legions of chaos so it's beastmen, Daemons, Warriors & Skaven?

it seems really stupid but I'm just curious because I may be cleaning out my Legions of Chaos stuff and I'm not sure if I should hold.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
But does this mean they updated legions of chaos so it's beastmen, Daemons, Warriors & Skaven?

it seems really stupid but I'm just curious because I may be cleaning out my Legions of Chaos stuff and I'm not sure if I should hold.

I've been reading more up on it, and the Skaven allying with Chaos is supposedly temporary, as they see Nagash as the biggest threat.

 Bottle wrote:
Yep looks like Dwarves and Ogres might be allied.

An incredibly aesthetically unpleasing combination

I couldn't disagree more. I would love to have a (well fluff backgrounded) reason to use my fatties with some stunties.


Also it would be no problem fitting it in fluff wise ; ogres actively go to other cultures and adapt and assimilate and then return to the tribe. There's even a unit in the game that reflects this ; maneaters. It makes 100% of sense. Even in End times to go from the Ogre mountain tribes to the empire (where half of them were said to be heading) you have to cross lots and lots of dwarf lands. They easily could have met up, been offered gold to fight the rat things (which need entirely too many spices to make palatable!), and voila. You have a perfect reason for dwarves and ogres to fight together.

Also, you're telling me that the dwarves would turn down the help ? I doubt it. Keep a grumbling, crankly, wary eye on the ogres, absolutely. Initiate "Operation: Get Behind The Fatties!", certainly. Refuse ? I doubt it. Not with hordes and hordes and hordes of ratmen at their doors. And rumor has it that Thanquol is joining up with Archaon... if that's the case, the forces of order are fethed.

 Haight wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
Yep looks like Dwarves and Ogres might be allied.

An incredibly aesthetically unpleasing combination

I couldn't disagree more. I would love to have a (well fluff backgrounded) reason to use my fatties with some stunties.


Also it would be no problem fitting it in fluff wise ; ogres actively go to other cultures and adapt and assimilate and then return to the tribe. There's even a unit in the game that reflects this ; maneaters. It makes 100% of sense. Even in End times to go from the Ogre mountain tribes to the empire (where half of them were said to be heading) you have to cross lots and lots of dwarf lands. They easily could have met up, been offered gold to fight the rat things (which need entirely too many spices to make palatable!), and voila. You have a perfect reason for dwarves and ogres to fight together.

Also, you're telling me that the dwarves would turn down the help ? I doubt it. Keep a grumbling, crankly, wary eye on the ogres, absolutely. Initiate "Operation: Get Behind The Fatties!", certainly. Refuse ? I doubt it. Not with hordes and hordes and hordes of ratmen at their doors. And rumor has it that Thanquol is joining up with Archaon... if that's the case, the forces of order are fethed.

I'm right there with you on this one. Great synergy between the two armies as well. Ogres get better leadership and more additions to their already-considerable magic defense. Dwarfs get mobility and access to a magic phase, as well as cheap chaff. Harmonically converged cannons and organ guns anyone? Or a dwarf gunline protected by gnoblar trappers?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

 Haight wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
Yep looks like Dwarves and Ogres might be allied.

An incredibly aesthetically unpleasing combination

I couldn't disagree more. I would love to have a (well fluff backgrounded) reason to use my fatties with some stunties.


Also it would be no problem fitting it in fluff wise ; ogres actively go to other cultures and adapt and assimilate and then return to the tribe. There's even a unit in the game that reflects this ; maneaters. It makes 100% of sense. Even in End times to go from the Ogre mountain tribes to the empire (where half of them were said to be heading) you have to cross lots and lots of dwarf lands. They easily could have met up, been offered gold to fight the rat things (which need entirely too many spices to make palatable!), and voila. You have a perfect reason for dwarves and ogres to fight together.

Also, you're telling me that the dwarves would turn down the help ? I doubt it. Keep a grumbling, crankly, wary eye on the ogres, absolutely. Initiate "Operation: Get Behind The Fatties!", certainly. Refuse ? I doubt it. Not with hordes and hordes and hordes of ratmen at their doors. And rumor has it that Thanquol is joining up with Archaon... if that's the case, the forces of order are fethed.

I'm right there with you on this one. Great synergy between the two armies as well. Ogres get better leadership and more additions to their already-considerable magic defense. Dwarfs get mobility and access to a magic phase, as well as cheap chaff. Harmonically converged cannons and organ guns anyone? Or a dwarf gunline protected by gnoblar trappers?

Having picked up my copy of Thanquol today, and given it a quick flick through, it seems Dwarves just got magic in the form of The Slayer King having the wind of fire within him

End Times has been a great read as a story, but, with it giving a lot of weight to the rumours of 9th ed, I see myself still playing 8th. As it stands, imo fantasy is everything I've come to expect of the game in 8th ed, to retcon the entire system and hack it down in to some fethed up skirmish game is pointless in my eyes. Ranks and Formations is what I love about the game, and to go ahead and make it into fantasy 40k sounds stupid. I've spent roughly 23 years playing gw games, without a single thought to doing other systems, and for the first time ever I'm finding myself actually looking around as I cannot believe what I'm hearing.

Yeah sure, its just rumours atm, though in some rumours I've heard a lot of staff at GW-HQ are kicking off over this...

Oh, as for Lizardmen I'm told... (yet to read Thanquol to verify, but be warned possible spoilers)



All in all I'm disappointed in GW, as to trash their flagship game thats been the same now for 35+ years is foolish... almost as foolish as flooding 40k with muhreens

Thats my two cents anyways

 Bottle wrote:
Yep looks like Dwarves and Ogres might be allied.

An incredibly aesthetically unpleasing combination

Not quite. The picture only tells a bit of the story, and its an isolated incident.

The Ogres, a contingent led by Golgfag, are hired by Belegar for great sums of money and food, but at a crucial pount in a major battle, turn on the Dwarves at the behest of Skarsnik, then head off to where ever, possibly follow Skarsnik. . The Dwarves pictured with the Ogres don't survive, so no alliance between Dwarf and Ogre.

If anything, it furthers the idea that Ogres will roll into Orc and Goblins.

 nels1031 wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
Yep looks like Dwarves and Ogres might be allied.

An incredibly aesthetically unpleasing combination

Not quite. The picture only tells a bit of the story, and its an isolated incident.

The Ogres, a contingent led by Golgfag, are hired by Belegar for great sums of money and food, but at a crucial pount in a major battle, turn on the Dwarves at the behest of Skarsnik, then head off to where ever, possibly follow Skarsnik. . The Dwarves pictured with the Ogres don't survive, so no alliance between Dwarf and Ogre.

If anything, it furthers the idea that Ogres will roll into Orc and Goblins.

Thanks for clearing that up. It was just speculation based on the picture (hence "might"). You're right that it now seems they will fold under Greenskins instead.

 Bottle wrote:

 nels1031 wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
Yep looks like Dwarves and Ogres might be allied.

An incredibly aesthetically unpleasing combination

Not quite. The picture only tells a bit of the story, and its an isolated incident.

The Ogres, a contingent led by Golgfag, are hired by Belegar for great sums of money and food, but at a crucial pount in a major battle, turn on the Dwarves at the behest of Skarsnik, then head off to where ever, possibly follow Skarsnik. . The Dwarves pictured with the Ogres don't survive, so no alliance between Dwarf and Ogre.

If anything, it furthers the idea that Ogres will roll into Orc and Goblins.

Thanks for clearing that up. It was just speculation based on the picture (hence "might"). You're right that it now seems they will fold under Greenskins instead.

To be honest I would have put ogres with orcs and Goblins at first in fact I think I did at start of this thread? I'm surprised to not be seeing more thanquol spoilers about

 Fellwing wrote:

 Bottle wrote:

 nels1031 wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
Yep looks like Dwarves and Ogres might be allied.

An incredibly aesthetically unpleasing combination

Not quite. The picture only tells a bit of the story, and its an isolated incident.

The Ogres, a contingent led by Golgfag, are hired by Belegar for great sums of money and food, but at a crucial pount in a major battle, turn on the Dwarves at the behest of Skarsnik, then head off to where ever, possibly follow Skarsnik. . The Dwarves pictured with the Ogres don't survive, so no alliance between Dwarf and Ogre.

If anything, it furthers the idea that Ogres will roll into Orc and Goblins.

Thanks for clearing that up. It was just speculation based on the picture (hence "might"). You're right that it now seems they will fold under Greenskins instead.

To be honest I would have put ogres with orcs and Goblins at first in fact I think I did at start of this thread? I'm surprised to not be seeing more thanquol spoilers about

Ogres with Orcs and Gobliins is about as boring, generic, and bland as i could possibly imagine.

Cliche as well.

If their goal is to make defensible IP, rolling Ogres into OnG isn't the smartest way of going about it. Then again neither is squatting probably thier most unique fantasy IP army either.


Disappointing, to say the least that there wont' be any Dwarf Ogre alliance.

 Haight wrote:

 Fellwing wrote:

 Bottle wrote:

 nels1031 wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
Yep looks like Dwarves and Ogres might be allied.

An incredibly aesthetically unpleasing combination

Not quite. The picture only tells a bit of the story, and its an isolated incident.

The Ogres, a contingent led by Golgfag, are hired by Belegar for great sums of money and food, but at a crucial pount in a major battle, turn on the Dwarves at the behest of Skarsnik, then head off to where ever, possibly follow Skarsnik. . The Dwarves pictured with the Ogres don't survive, so no alliance between Dwarf and Ogre.

If anything, it furthers the idea that Ogres will roll into Orc and Goblins.

Thanks for clearing that up. It was just speculation based on the picture (hence "might"). You're right that it now seems they will fold under Greenskins instead.

To be honest I would have put ogres with orcs and Goblins at first in fact I think I did at start of this thread? I'm surprised to not be seeing more thanquol spoilers about

Ogres with Orcs and Gobliins is about as boring, generic, and bland as i could possibly imagine.

Cliche as well.

If their goal is to make defensible IP, rolling Ogres into OnG isn't the smartest way of going about it. Then again neither is squatting probably thier most unique fantasy IP army either.


Disappointing, to say the least that there wont' be any Dwarf Ogre alliance.

Yep, seems that cutting production costs is more important than defending the IP in the context of fantasy. So maybe the only reason Lizardmen get squatted is because they can't be neatly rolled into a book with any of the other armies...

 AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:
as to trash their flagship game

The thing is, fantasy is no longer their flagship game. 40k is. Every GW store carries more 40k than fantasy, 40k gets more attention & more licensing deals. Fantasy may be 40ks older brother but 40k is definitely the golden child.

Hasn't 40k been the big one for years, too? It seemed a lot bigger when I first got interested in 40k, and that was... over a decade ago, wow.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:
as to trash their flagship game

The thing is, fantasy is no longer their flagship game. 40k is. Every GW store carries more 40k than fantasy, 40k gets more attention & more licensing deals. Fantasy may be 40ks older brother but 40k is definitely the golden child.

I meant it as in their first product. The one that got them where they are today. Instead they insist upon beating it over the head into a bloody pulp

 AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:
as to trash their flagship game

The thing is, fantasy is no longer their flagship game. 40k is. Every GW store carries more 40k than fantasy, 40k gets more attention & more licensing deals. Fantasy may be 40ks older brother but 40k is definitely the golden child.

I meant it as in their first product. The one that got them where they are today. Instead they insist upon beating it over the head into a bloody pulp

I'm not sure that they are, and if you can play pre end times in 9th, like you have 30k, then it could be a good move, allowing people to play pre during and post end times.
Also, it has been clear for a long time that 40k is the flagship, even when I bought my first box back in '06. (I know it says I started war gaming in 2012, but I'd had models for a long time)

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:
as to trash their flagship game

The thing is, fantasy is no longer their flagship game. 40k is. Every GW store carries more 40k than fantasy, 40k gets more attention & more licensing deals. Fantasy may be 40ks older brother but 40k is definitely the golden child.

I meant it as in their first product. The one that got them where they are today. Instead they insist upon beating it over the head into a bloody pulp

I'm not sure that they are, and if you can play pre end times in 9th, like you have 30k, then it could be a good move, allowing people to play pre during and post end times.
Also, it has been clear for a long time that 40k is the flagship, even when I bought my first box back in '06. (I know it says I started war gaming in 2012, but I'd had models for a long time)

True. Imagine how much more choice and variety we could have for our games with multiple settings. Hypothetically speaking, just because 9th is set after the end times supposedly them that doesn't mean to say you can't use the rules to fight any game with any armies. People need to stop crying about this. Also if we do see skirmish rules I could see it as an option, rather than a concept to be forced upon us.
maybe warhammer as we know it will be more like what escalation is to 40k?

Imagine how much more variety we could have in our games if people were willing to roll back to other editions at will! It would be almost like Time Travel, except you'd do it with books and models you already own, at no further expense to yourself!

Anvildude wrote:
Imagine how much more variety we could have in our games if people were willing to roll back to other editions at will! It would be almost like Time Travel, except you'd do it with books and models you already own, at no further expense to yourself!

Bah! Then you're not participating in the HHHobby!

Anvildude wrote:
Imagine how much more variety we could have in our games if people were willing to roll back to other editions at will! It would be almost like Time Travel, except you'd do it with books and models you already own, at no further expense to yourself!

I've found it's easy to keep playing older editions for about 1 or so years after a new edition comes out. After that you have some people leave the group, new people join the group who don't know or own the old books, people want to start a new army or expand their army and would prefer to do it according to the new rules instead of the old rules, people simply get bored and want to move on, etc.

 AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

Having picked up my copy of Thanquol today, and given it a quick flick through, it seems Dwarves just got magic in the form of The Slayer King having the wind of fire within him

End Times has been a great read as a story, but, with it giving a lot of weight to the rumours of 9th ed, I see myself still playing 8th. As it stands, imo fantasy is everything I've come to expect of the game in 8th ed, to retcon the entire system and hack it down in to some fethed up skirmish game is pointless in my eyes. Ranks and Formations is what I love about the game, and to go ahead and make it into fantasy 40k sounds stupid. I've spent roughly 23 years playing gw games, without a single thought to doing other systems, and for the first time ever I'm finding myself actually looking around as I cannot believe what I'm hearing.

Yeah sure, its just rumours atm, though in some rumours I've heard a lot of staff at GW-HQ are kicking off over this...

Oh, as for Lizardmen I'm told... (yet to read Thanquol to verify, but be warned possible spoilers)

Spoiler:

They activated their temples with a special spawning of skink, which turned them into vessels capable of travel elsewhere, and during their exodus the slann all perished being turned into Kroak like slann.

All in all I'm disappointed in GW, as to trash their flagship game thats been the same now for 35+ years is foolish... almost as foolish as flooding 40k with muhreens

Thats my two cents anyways

There is zero-chance that GW scraps a game with so much accumulated good will in exchange for an untested and unproven game that nobody has ever seen before.

Zero.

Especially after they've poured so much love into it for the End Times.

Perhaps they'll roll out a skirmish game that is meant to co-exist with mass-battle 8th edition, or act as a gateway into the world of large armies. But scrapping the core concept of WHFB altogether is insane. No way will it happen, just like no way will they squat a successful and unique faction like Lizardmen. Bretonnia maybe, because they're old and kind of generic. Tomb Kings maybe, because they're unpopular and much of their range is still finecast or needs updating (the entire core, basically). But not Lizardmen.

I tend to think the rumours of it becoming a skirmish game are pretty far fetched.

My main worry is (as always) the rules are going to suck because GW haven't written a decent rule system in many years and secondly that compressing the army books in to 6 books we're going to blur the lines between armies. I don't really mind the idea of having all armies summed up in 6 books or frankly even 1 book would be fine, as long as they remain unique armies, which I think is what we're going to lose.

I prefer the idea of encouraging people to collect a single army rather than just mashing together the best options from a faction book.

At this point I think there's little chance of me being happy with the result as my WHFB armies are Bretonnians, Lizardmen and Wood Elves. It seems the WE are just going to be swallowed by "Elves", Bretonnia swallowed by "Human" and it seems like Lizardmen are in for a big change, squatted? Losing the Slann? Being a stupid bubble army? Not sure at this point... but I've learned from experience to expect the worst from GW.

As long as they don't take away the option to just play one of the armies in the combined armies idea if a player wishes then i don't see the problem, sure as always players obsessed with a win percentage will just take all the best units from each but i would rather the options exist for others like myself who would build well thought theme armies from the models they like, then punish us because others can't play nice.

 Hubris wrote:
As long as they don't take away the option to just play one of the armies in the combined armies idea if a player wishes then i don't see the problem, sure as always players obsessed with a win percentage will just take all the best units from each but i would rather the options exist for others like myself who would build well thought theme armies from the models they like, then punish us because others can't play nice.

Well lets take combined elves as an example. In your book, there are rules for all the elf units with no distinction, but you can just not take those other units.
So when the Dwarves just get rolled into a book with Empire and Brettonia, (probably) I'll just only take Dwarven units.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Hubris wrote:
As long as they don't take away the option to just play one of the armies in the combined armies idea if a player wishes then i don't see the problem, sure as always players obsessed with a win percentage will just take all the best units from each but i would rather the options exist for others like myself who would build well thought theme armies from the models they like, then punish us because others can't play nice.

Well lets take combined elves as an example. In your book, there are rules for all the elf units with no distinction, but you can just not take those other units.
So when the Dwarves just get rolled into a book with Empire and Brettonia, (probably) I'll just only take Dwarven units.

Exactly no harm done really, where as someone like me who has always liked the fluff about the Dwarf communities in the Empire can now decide to add some Empire to the Dwarven units i already own to flesh out the army, assuming that rumour is true.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
At this point I think there's little chance of me being happy with the result as my WHFB armies are Bretonnians, Lizardmen and Wood Elves. It seems the WE are just going to be swallowed by "Elves", Bretonnia swallowed by "Human" and it seems like Lizardmen are in for a big change, squatted? Losing the Slann? Being a stupid bubble army? Not sure at this point... but I've learned from experience to expect the worst from GW.

Give the "bubbles" a chance. I think there's a great opportunity to make a really good world here that will be much more interesting than the generic tolkienesque map we had before (which you can still set your games on, if you wish).

As for the lizardmen,

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Hubris wrote:
As long as they don't take away the option to just play one of the armies in the combined armies idea if a player wishes then i don't see the problem, sure as always players obsessed with a win percentage will just take all the best units from each but i would rather the options exist for others like myself who would build well thought theme armies from the models they like, then punish us because others can't play nice.

Well lets take combined elves as an example. In your book, there are rules for all the elf units with no distinction, but you can just not take those other units.
So when the Dwarves just get rolled into a book with Empire and Brettonia, (probably) I'll just only take Dwarven units.

Yeah, you can do that, but it's still not going to be the same. It's like when Allies hit in 40k. People were like "oh yeah, I'll just not take allies". Even if those people still stick to that mantra, they haven't stopped Allies radically changing the game.

 Hubris wrote:
As long as they don't take away the option to just play one of the armies in the combined armies idea if a player wishes then i don't see the problem, sure as always players obsessed with a win percentage will just take all the best units from each but i would rather the options exist for others like myself who would build well thought theme armies from the models they like, then punish us because others can't play nice.

No I'd prefer people weren't encouraged to just take models from different armies piecemeal. I like my WHFB to be Bretonnians vs Wood Elves, not Generic Elves vs crazy mixed Humans/Dwarfs/Ogres. Especially with GW who can't balance armies and it will inevitably produce cookie cutter mixes that are randomly stronger than other armies.

Not that I have a problem with allying armies, I just prefer it to be done at a gamer-level ("oh, you have 2000pts of Bretonnians? Well me and a mate have 1000pts each of High Elves and Wood Elves, lets play?") than at a core rules level ("hmm, the Dwarf cannon is vastly better than the Empire cannon... I'll take that one... these Bretonnian troops by far make the best Knights, I'll take those, those Empire infantry blocks seem to work best, I'll take those").

The removal of structured and unique armies has not benefited 40k, I don't think it'll benefit Fantasy.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Hubris wrote:
As long as they don't take away the option to just play one of the armies in the combined armies idea if a player wishes then i don't see the problem, sure as always players obsessed with a win percentage will just take all the best units from each but i would rather the options exist for others like myself who would build well thought theme armies from the models they like, then punish us because others can't play nice.

No I'd prefer people weren't encouraged to just take models from different armies piecemeal. I like my WHFB to be Bretonnians vs Wood Elves, not Generic Elves vs crazy mixed Humans/Dwarfs/Ogres. Especially with GW who can't balance armies and it will inevitably produce cookie cutter mixes that are randomly stronger than other armies.

Not that I have a problem with allying armies, I just prefer it to be done at a gamer-level ("oh, you have 2000pts of Bretonnians? Well me and a mate have 1000pts each of High Elves and Wood Elves, lets play?") than at a core rules level ("hmm, the Dwarf cannon is vastly better than the Empire cannon... I'll take that one... these Bretonnian troops by far make the best Knights, I'll take those, those Empire infantry blocks seem to work best, I'll take those").

The removal of structured and unique armies has not benefited 40k, I don't think it'll benefit Fantasy.

Got half way through a big response, decided not worth it, lets just agree we come at the game from a different perspective and local players.

On a basic level i just don't agree with everyone being punished/restricted because some players can't play nice or choose not to because they must win at all costs to make themselves feel good/boost their ego over a game of toy soldiers.

Edit: Just to add that the ally system has benefited my local 40k playerbase, again who you choose to play etc.

To me it's not even about some random WAAC players ruining it for everyone else, I just prefer the cohesiveness of distinct armies (which has nothing to do with the number of books and everything to do with how the rules are written).

I'm not against taking mixed forces, it's just to me they should always been an expansion to the basic rules, not part of the basic rules like they are in 40k.

Allies are an option. OPTION. Option

 Fellwing wrote:
Allies are an option. OPTION. Option

Everything is an option, allies are an option that I don't think should be part of the core rules

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Fellwing wrote:
Allies are an option. OPTION. Option

Everything is an option, allies are an option that I don't think should be part of the core rules

Exactly. Pretty much everything in the game is optional, but the inclusion of it still hugely impacts the game. Tournaments are full of them, you have to prepare your army for it, people are gradually going to get used to it and normalise it, etc...

If I was going to trim down the list, it would look something like this


Order

Kingdoms of Men(Empire/Bretonnia)
Dwarves
Uluthani/Seelie (High/Wood elves)
Lizardmen
Tomb Kings


Destruction

Realms of Chaos (Mortals/Daemons/Beastmen)
Orcs & Goblins (Maybe Ogres here too)
Naggarothi/Unseelie (Dark/Wood elves)
Skaven
Vampire Counts


This setup gives you 5 armies on each side. There is the option to put ogres in with O&G; or you could roll undead into a single evil faction, with ogres given a heavy Dogs of War flavor on the side of order.

 iLLiTHiD wrote:
If I was going to trim down the list, it would look something like this


Order

Kingdoms of Men(Empire/Bretonnia)
Dwarves
Uluthani/Seelie (High/Wood elves)
Lizardmen
Tomb Kings


Destruction

Realms of Chaos (Mortals/Daemons/Beastmen)
Orcs & Goblins (Maybe Ogres here too)


Naggarothi/Unseelie (Dark/Wood elves)
Skaven
Vampire Counts


This setup gives you 5 armies on each side. There is the option to put ogres in with O&G; or you could roll undead into a single evil faction, with ogres given a heavy Dogs of War flavor on the side of order.

Oh man, you just reminded me 5th edition Realm of Chaos, I'm looking at that big awesome box on my bookshelf right now!!!

OK if GW puts some work into the combined army books and makes something on a comparable level to Realm of Chaos then I will be stoked. Think about it; that box was a freaking event. I knew people who picked it up that didn't even play Chaos just because it was so unique.

I can also see Undead going back to their earlier edition roots. They used to be one big combined army that had everything from zombies and mummies being commanded by a Liche, or Vampire or Tomb King.

The odd one out is still Lizardmen. While I don't see them getting lopped off I have trouble seeing who they would be combined with, given their fluff.

I saw the photos of Dwarfs and Ogres, but I dunno if I buy that as a straight alliance. I could see Dwarfs being rolled into the armies of man since they have such deep ties to each other. Ogres could go along side them as well, or could go O&G (giving them a suitable book ally)

 More Dakka wrote:

 iLLiTHiD wrote:
If I was going to trim down the list, it would look something like this

I saw the photos of Dwarfs and Ogres, but I dunno if I buy that as a straight alliance. I could see Dwarfs being rolled into the armies of man since they have such deep ties to each other. Ogres could go along side them as well, or could go O&G (giving them a suitable book ally)

In the latest book

Spoiler:

the Dwarves as an independent nation are pretty much wiped out and the only Ogre Mercs / Allies betray them - all their holds are burning / despoiled except one and that look about to fall with their High King having his head sawed off as a trophy on the last page