9th edition speculation 6 Factions!?

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**Bottle**

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Bottle wrote:
In my opinion the biggest problem with fantasy has been LOTR/The Hobbit. If you were to walk into a GW without any prior knowledge you would see two products outwardly very similar (especially because Fantasy draws upon my Tolkien tropes.)

And nothing is more confusing to a potential customer then offering them two slightly different products when they are not sure which choice they should be making.
Well if they walk in to a GW store they'll typically have the staff there to explain the differences and push the product, it wouldn't surprise me if staff are instructed to push people in the direction of WHFB more than The Hobbit these days.

But if you're new to the hobby, any differences explained are going to be largely meaningless. Both games are about Elves, Dwarves, Orcs and Humans fighting with swords, bows and magic.

My main point though is I hope to see the Hobbit dropped now the last movie has come out. For Warhammer to remain largely how it is, and for these rumored changes to be a new product line/game that takes up the Hobbit space in each GW.

**Argive**

Bottle wrote:
In my opinion the biggest problem with fantasy has been LOTR/The Hobbit. If you were to walk into a GW without any prior knowledge you would see two products outwardly very similar (especially because Fantasy draws upon my Tolkien tropes.)

And nothing is more confusing to a potential customer then offering them two slightly different products when they are not sure which choice they should be making.

I would hope to see these rumored changes to 9th edition to actually be the replacement in store to the Hobbit range. Something totally set apart from Warhammer and 40k and also designed as an introduction to the hobby (with smaller model counts and easier rules).

I don't want to see Warhammer as we know it disappear :(

I agree.

LOTR miantures are very comparable to movie memorabilia my local forbidden planet is selling.. So I think it targets a different market entirely to wargaming.
Someone whose in to lotr movies will buy lotr products that he aint guna have to paint themself.
Like marvel "toys" and other such.

**Shas'O Dorian**

Schlyne wrote:
Whenever they release a new model for Hobbit, it's a finecast model, it's not plastic. That doesn't sound like long term planning..unless it's just cheaper to make a resin model mold as opposed to a plastic one.

It is, in low quantity. The Hobbit doesn't sell in huge numbers. Making a plastic mold is more expensive because you need to engineer it to provide uniform pressure, with no air pockets & take into account that injection molded plastic has a push pull effect. The hot plastic pushes into the mold but pulls back as it cools. You need to make sure the detail isn't lost in the pull. So for smaller numbers, resin is cheaper.

**AllSeeingSkink**

Bottle wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Bottle wrote:
In my opinion the biggest problem with fantasy has been LOTR/The Hobbit. If you were to walk into a GW without any prior knowledge you would see two products outwardly very similar (especially because Fantasy draws upon my Tolkien tropes.)

And nothing is more confusing to a potential customer then offering them two slightly different products when they are not sure which choice they should be making.
Well if they walk in to a GW store they'll typically have the staff there to explain the differences and push the product, it wouldn't surprise me if staff are instructed to push people in the direction of WHFB more than The Hobbit these days.

But if you're new to the hobby, any differences explained are going to be largely meaningless. Both games are about Elves, Dwarves, Orcs and Humans fighting with swords, bows and magic.

People know what The Hobbit is, I don't think it's that hard for them to understand "This is a game that lets you replay scenes from the movies, here's a sample game set up on this table over here, this other game is another Fantasy game where you play with regiments like this sample game that is set up on that table". I'm sure it could potentially cause confusion, but really, not so much so for it to be considered a major problem, certainly not the "biggest" problem. I think any salesman worth his salt would be able to sell either system to an interested player with money, I don't imagine too people who walked in intending to spend money to be walking out buying nothing because they were too confused.

My main point though is I hope to see the Hobbit dropped now the last movie has come out. For Warhammer to remain largely how it is, and for these rumored changes to be a new product line/game that takes up the Hobbit space in each GW.

I wished GW actually supported The Hobbit instead of just giving us a crappy range of overpriced models. There's plenty of space for 40k and WHFB to live alongside other games like LOTR, Necromunda, Mordhiem, Epic, Warmaster, etc.

As it is I don't know whether I want GW to kill The Hobbit or not, I wanted it to do well, but GW have screwed it so bad I'm torn. I like the models, I like the rules, but no one plays it and the models are overpriced and too small of a range.

**darkcloak**

Oh derp!

I just realized what they're planning!

Supplements!

Wanna play Elves? Buy the Elf book! Wanna play em dark? Buy the Dark Elves supplement!

Goddam, they'll probably digital releases only too!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I may need an extraneous exclamation mark filter...

**Shas'O Dorian**

darkcloak wrote:

Goddam, they'll probably digital releases only too!

My problem with this is I fething HATE their digital book versions. I don't own any idevices so ibook is useless to me. Plus I don't want the ibook version I want an electronic version of the physical book. I'd love a pdf but due to lack of DRM support that won't happen, though I don't see why they can't just use the files they send to the printer to make an epub or mobi.

**Orock**

6 factions

chaos, demons, beastmen
humans, dwarves (this is the only place lizardmen could go that would make sense fluffwise) but probably wont have lizardmen
wood elf, high elf, dark elf
tomb kings, vampires
orcs and goblins, ogres
skaven by themselves I supose?

**Anvildude**

Heh. Skaven and LIzardmen?

**Fellwing**

hmmm
just read the codex apocrypha again in White Dwarf 47 about the Lizardmen, exodus bla bla...
one thing that popped out was when the Slann's spirit form gets near the tear in reality and the (i presume) Chaos god's ask him to join them...
what if the Slann escape and the leaderless Lizardmen are then enslaved by chaos?
Chaos Lizardmen anyone?

My apologies if someone has already pointed this out

**StormKing**

Argive wrote:
I forsee

Humans - Brets and empire in 1. - cuts one book

Elves -3 factions rolled into one = 2 books cut

Chaos - roll demons, woc, beatsmen into one book... again cuts out 2 books

undead - roll 2 armies into 1, cutting one book

Greenskins - being greenskins. orks are too iconic for whfb to go
Lizzardmen - same as orcs
Skaven - same as orcks
Dwarves - same as orks
Ogres - maybe be reset to a merc status so all armies could take them.

This means 6 Books are cut in total. That is a LOT.

They don't have to worry about 6 armies... Thus enables them to streamline the other armies and strengthen those ranges..

Makes sense.

Dropping down to 6 is bit too drastic. Dropping 6 makes more sense..

This part makes the most sense DROPPING 6 and NOT ONLY 6 ARMIES

I would be interested in seeing whta happens with this. Might make the armies easier to start if they combine 2 or 3 armies in 1 book @ the price of the end times soft covers?

**-Loki-**

From what I've been told about how End Times is shaping up, Lizardmen fit right in with the Elves goal, and Skaven fall in with Chaos. Ogres would be right at home with Orcs and Goblins, and Dwarves with Empire and Brettonia. I think a big part of this is trying to get over what factions used to be individually, and where GW is aligning them with the End Times. Also remember the rumours include that new faction of 'Fantasy Space Marines'. If they really want to push these guys as hard as they push Space Marines, they will get a book themselves, guaranteed.

Empire, Brettonia, Dwarves
High Elves, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Lizardmen
Warriors of Chaos, Daemons of Chaos, Beastmen, Skaven
Orcs and Goblins, Ogre Kingdoms
Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings
New 'Fantasy Space Marines' race that's been rumoured

**StormKing**

A fantasy "space marines" thing isn't what they mean by a flagship army.
Its just a race of good guys, who are gunna be super religious or something. They won't get their own book that wouldn't make any sense in my opinion anyways

**NunoTaborda**

Accolade wrote:
Well, right off the bat you can cut four armies right off the bat without changing the dynamics of the forces that much:

- Tomb Kings and VC *used* to be one book, and the concepts between their armies (minus the Transylvania v. Egypt themes) are pretty simlar
- Beastmen, Daemons, and Warriors of Chaos used to all be in the same book. Putting them back together again just means you go right back to the old system
- Bretonnia and the Empire, while being interesting in individual lore, can easily be combined within the same book...especially since a lot of the Bretonnian army is redundant (ie Knights of the Realm, knights errant, grail knights, and questing knights are almost the exact same kit minus some bits and baubles)

If GW decides to go the unified Elf direction, that's two more armies gone right off the bat. We're now at 9 armies remaining:

- Dwarfs
- Ogres
- Orks
- Unified Elves
- Chaos
- Undead
- Humans
- Skaven
- Lizardmen

I'm assuming Dwarfs will join humans (especially if the End Times stuff about them getting severely thrashed is right) and Ogres can join either humans or Orks easily enough, so then we're down to seven. I'm not sure how they would shrink it from here, unless the rumors about Lizardmen disappearing for a time (or altogether) are real. Still, I'd expect they'd at least make an appearance in some sort of additional rules, so it might just be they aren't in the preliminary group.

From everything I read and saw, I would say:

Humans (Empire, Bretonnia, Dwarfs)
Undead (Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings)
Orcs and Goblins will have Ogres
Elves (the three races)
Lizardmen
Chaos (Beastmen, Warriors, Deamons, Skaven).

**Fellwing**

chiefbigredman wrote:
A fantasy "space marines" thing isn't what they mean by a flagship army.
Its just a race of good guys, who are gunna be super religious or something. They won't get their own book that wouldn't make any sense in my opinion anyways

Surely we won't see TWO human factions, not when the other races are getting squashed together
more likely it'll turn out to be a Legion of Humans a la Legions of Chaos and Legions of undead
perhaps they have come to venerate mr Franz as a deity?
personally i think that could make for a very playable army when you take all the decent elements of Empire, Brets and Dwarfs

**Shas'O Dorian**

Fellwing wrote:

personally i think that could make for a very playable army when you take all the decent elements of Empire, Brets and Dwarfs

If by playable you mean stupid, yes. Imagine how much artillery you can field with dwarf cannons & organ guns, empire cannons & hell blasters with steam tanks & a dwarf shield wall in front of it. That is not an army I would like to play against. I mean people cry about 8 bolt throwers...

**ImAGeek**

Shas'O Dorian wrote:
Fellwing wrote:

personally i think that could make for a very playable army when you take all the decent elements of Empire, Brets and Dwarfs

If by playable you mean stupid, yes. Imagine how much artillery you can field with dwarf cannons & organ guns, empire cannons & hell blasters with steam tanks & a dwarf shield wall in front of it. That is not an army I would like to play against. I mean people cry about 8 bolt throwers...

If they had some kind of Warmachine limit then? I don't know what would be balanced but I agree they'd have to do something about the artillery or it would be stupid.

**argonak**

Bottle wrote:
In my opinion the biggest problem with fantasy has been LOTR/The Hobbit. If you were to walk into a GW without any prior knowledge you would see two products outwardly very similar (especially because Fantasy draws upon my Tolkien tropes.)

And nothing is more confusing to a potential customer then offering them two slightly different products when they are not sure which choice they should be making.

I would hope to see these rumored changes to 9th edition to actually be the replacement in store to the Hobbit range. Something totally set apart from Warhammer and 40k and also designed as an introduction to the hobby (with smaller model counts and easier rules).

I don't want to see Warhammer as we know it disappear :(

What I always found mind boggling about the LOTR/Hobbit debacle. . . was that they didn't use the same rules as Warhammer, and weren't the same scale. It seemed like a no-brainer to use LOTR as a draw in for warhammer. I liked the LOTR rules. . . but from a business sense it made no sense that they built an entirely separate rules set for LOTR, and then made the minis not really interchangeable.

**Shas'O Dorian**

argonak wrote:
Bottle wrote:
In my opinion the biggest problem with fantasy has been LOTR/The Hobbit. If you were to walk into a GW without any prior knowledge you would see two products outwardly very similar (especially because Fantasy draws upon my Tolkien tropes.)

And nothing is more confusing to a potential customer then offering them two slightly different products when they are not sure which choice they should be making.

I would hope to see these rumored changes to 9th edition to actually be the replacement in store to the Hobbit range. Something totally set apart from Warhammer and 40k and also designed as an introduction to the hobby (with smaller model counts and easier rules).

I don't want to see Warhammer as we know it disappear :(

What I always found mind boggling about the LOTR/Hobbit debacle. . . was that they didn't use the same rules as Warhammer, and weren't the same scale. It seemed like a no-brainer to use LOTR as a draw in for warhammer. I liked the LOTR rules. . . but from a business sense it made no sense that they built an entirely separate rules set for LOTR, and then made the minis not really interchangeable.

In their agreement with new line cinema they had to use true scaling not "Heroic" scaling. That is why Smaug is so big & $500. GW wanted to use a different scale & sought permission to do so to make a more affordable plastic kit but new line said no.

**nels1031**

Here's a theory of mine:

At the end of Khaine, Lileath(Lady of the Lake) tells Araloth that the new pocket dimension that she is sending him to start over is guarded by the spirits of Bretonnia's most noble knights. Its also said in Glottkin that Leon's crusade to help Altdorf essentially cleaned out Bretonnia's remaining Knightly population with the exception of Grail Knights, Bretonnia's most noble knights.

Could this new faction of "fantasy space marines" just be another incarnation of Grail Knights, who leave Bretonnia to protect her new realm at Lileath's request? Perhaps their spirits are given physical form again and these are the new faction. Possibly an Elf/Bretonnia combined Army, separate from the Host of the Eternity King?

Like I said, just a theory. I'm excited, either way. Loving the new directions Warhammer is taking!

**Fellwing**

ImAGeek wrote:
Shas'O Dorian wrote:
Fellwing wrote:

personally i think that could make for a very playable army when you take all the decent elements of Empire, Brets and Dwarfs

If by playable you mean stupid, yes. Imagine how much artillery you can field with dwarf cannons & organ guns, empire cannons & hell blasters with steam tanks & a dwarf shield wall in front of it. That is not an army I would like to play against. I mean people cry about 8 bolt throwers...

If they had some kind of Warmachine limit then? I don't know what would be balanced but I agree they'd have to do something about the artillery or it would be stupid.

no need to throw stones...
was thinking more from an aesthetical point of view anyway. Also if what we are hearing is true, then a lot of units will be shelved so maybe they'll be able to balance it out with selected units from each of the factions (i said maybebefore anyone starts)

**Anvildude**

nels1031 wrote:
Here's a theory of mine:

At the end of Khaine, Lileath(Lady of the Lake) tells Araloth that the new pocket dimension that she is sending him to start over is guarded by the spirits of Bretonnia's most noble knights. Its also said in Glottkin that Leon's crusade to help Altdorf essentially cleaned out Bretonnia's remaining Knightly population with the exception of Grail Knights, Bretonnia's most noble knights.

Could this new faction of "fantasy space marines" just be another incarnation of Grail Knights, who leave Bretonnia to protect her new realm at Lileath's request? Perhaps their spirits are given physical form again and these are the new faction. Possibly an Elf/Bretonnia combined Army, separate from the Host of the Eternity King?

Like I said, just a theory. I'm excited, either way. Loving the new directions Warhammer is taking!

Hrm. That could be pretty interesting, actually. Basically split Brettonia off a little, maybe combined with Wood Elves? I could see them taking Knights away from the Empire, combining Empire and Dwarves for a Warmachine and Infantry-heavy faction, and then making an 'All Mounted' faction via heavily armoured human knights, deer-mounted Elven archers, etc etc whatever. Mounts add to the armour of the unit, and the imagery of knights is definitely one of 'good guys'.

Alternatively, they make the Lizardmen into the Good Guy race, as a sort of Fantasy Tau thing (because the Tau are the 'least evil guys' in 40k, yet not human)- make them a little less lizardy, a little more tech savvy (for metal armour) and you've got an interesting 'new' race born from the ashes of the old. Maybe even have them go all Dragonborn (dnd, not skyrim) on them.

**Shas'O Dorian**

Anvildude wrote:
[ the Tau are the 'least evil guys' in 40k, yet not human).

I dunno man. It's basically join or die & even if you join, we'll just sterilize you & let your race die a slow extinction if we don't find you useful.

**Anvildude**

Hey, at least they let you join if you want. Everyone else just kills you if they find you.

**toasteroven**

There's a slogan for their tourism bureau then. "The Tau Empire: A Kinder, Gentler Genocide. Visit Today!"

**chaos0xomega**

Rumor is the factions will be as follows:

1. Combined Undead
2. Combined Chaos
3. Combined Elves
4. Skaven
5.Combined Humans, Dwarves, and Ogres
6. Orcs n Goblins

I believe, personally, that Lizards will be a 7th faction or that Orcs and Skaven will be combined. Ogres with Orcs would be somewhat logical as well, but there is a historical basis for Ogres being with the Humans instead. I also feel that lizards could have been with elves (particularly since dragons and cold ones factor heavily into the elven lore, both of which are in fact lizards), but it doesn't seem likely at this point.

I just can't see a massive overhaul of the flagship brand being feasible. Even if I put my capitalism hat on, it just doesn't make sense.

You're right. Thats why theyre overhauling Fantasy instead of 40k.

Asteroidhammer Fantasy isn't going to happen. There is no point in killing a game that is on the up swing thanks to the end times.

Except for the fact that this is the WHOLE POINT of the End Times?

**AllSeeingSkink**

argonak wrote:What I always found mind boggling about the LOTR/Hobbit debacle. . . was that they didn't use the same rules as Warhammer, and weren't the same scale. It seemed like a no-brainer to use LOTR as a draw in for warhammer. I liked the LOTR rules. . . but from a business sense it made no sense that they built an entirely separate rules set for LOTR, and then made the minis not really interchangeable.

There's no way anyone would have let the LOTR IP to be used alongside the Warhammer IP. Beyond that, the Warhammer rules don't make for good games for recreating scenes from the movies, something the LOTR rules do really well. Beyond that, I'm glad they made a new scale for LOTR, I think the models would have looked rather strange in GW's typical hero scale.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:GW wanted to use a different scale & sought permission to do so to make a more affordable plastic kit but new line said no.

Where did you read/hear that? It sounds like a BS story made up by a shop keeper to me.

**Shas'O Dorian**

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:GW wanted to use a different scale & sought permission to do so to make a more affordable plastic kit but new line said no.
Where did you read/hear that? It sounds like a BS story made up by a shop keeper to me.

Some podcast but I dont remember which I listen to a lot.

**AllSeeingSkink**

Shas'O Dorian wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:GW wanted to use a different scale & sought permission to do so to make a more affordable plastic kit but new line said no.
Where did you read/hear that? It sounds like a BS story made up by a shop keeper to me.

Some podcast but I dont remember which I listen to a lot.

I'm gonna assume it's BS because I don't think anyone in the know would be willing to talk about it (or even more so contractually obliged to not talk about it). I think a lot of stuff gets made up by people trying to explain why something happened and then people just roll with it.

GW could have made it out of plastic at it's current size, it is big, it's not bigger than hundreds of model plastic planes/boats/cars that you'll find if you walk in to any hobby store (which aren't massively cheap either mind you, but a lot less than $500). In Australia, I can buy a 15" by 21" Typhoon for $170AUD that is more detailed than the $550AUD Smaug (it has a detailed engine, cockpit, the interiors of the wings are all modelled, all that good stuff).

**Accolade**

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Shas'O Dorian wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:GW wanted to use a different scale & sought permission to do so to make a more affordable plastic kit but new line said no.
Where did you read/hear that? It sounds like a BS story made up by a shop keeper to me.

Some podcast but I dont remember which I listen to a lot.
I'm gonna assume it's BS because I don't think anyone in the know would be willing to talk about it (or even more so contractually obliged to not talk about it). I think a lot of stuff gets made up by people trying to explain why something happened and then people just roll with it.

GW could have made it out of plastic at it's current size, it is big, it's not bigger than hundreds of model plastic planes/boats/cars that you'll find if you walk in to any hobby store (which aren't massively cheap either mind you, but a lot less than $500). In Australia, I can buy a 15" by 21" Typhoon for $170AUD that is more detailed than the $550AUD Smaug (it has a detailed engine, cockpit, the interiors of the wings are all modelled, all that good stuff).

EDIT: I was originally in agreement with Skink about this, but I remembered an older WD back when they used to showcase the Golden Demon awards. I distinctly remember a person who won a silver award in Fantasy but the image was NOT allowed to be shown because it included items from LOTR range. It even had a disclaimer apologizing to the reader about it.

I think GW's pretty crazy (especially these days), but I don't think they were *that* crazy to make the whole thing up.

**Anvildude**

Thing is, with model aeroplanes and such, it's all cheap, thin, brittle plastic meant only to look good and sit on a shelf- not to be moved around and played with.