Last time I did this the lion beat the wolf by votes so this time we will do sanguinious vs angron, who wins in a fight?

Voted Sangy just due to Angrons blind rage at times, Undoubtedly a top fighter but focus and "a cool head" should see Sang through.

This will be a close one I think, but of course I have to vote for Sanguinius

Sanguinus as has a cooler head, Russ beat him not by winning but better planning.

He cannot win by force but use his rage against him, and outsmart and bring him down by brains not force.

Nails for Brains wins this one.

Angron won in single combat against russ. But russ had him Surrounded with Terminators/ Other SM. Russ retreated becuase he was also upset that angron allowed himself to be put in such an obvious spot.

Basically, If we put angron and Sangy in a Cage match, who will win?


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I say angron . but It would still be a very close call. I believe it has been said sangy was the better fighter

Considering that Sanguinius can fly, he automatically gains victory through that advantage. He can dive bomb Angron at supersonic speeds, grab him and drop him from a couple thousand feet in the air, etc.

Sanguinius beats Angron. Blood Angel for the Blood Angel god

I want to say Sanguinus, but it's dependent on the situation. Flight is a huge advantage in an open field fight. In a cage match where the Angel can't use his flight the wings just get in the way, and he can't escape slugging it out toe-to-toe with Angron. In that case Angron wins.

When it comes to tactics I wouldn't write Angron off so easily. He led the gladiator rebellion on his home world for ages, fighting an entire planet with a handful of (augmented) slave-warriors. He's Spartacus in the 31st Millennium. Sure, he's got rage issues which sometimes cloud his judgement, but tactics are not a slam-dunk for Sanguinus.

In the end, though, I refer you to Stan Lee. In 'Stan's Rants' when asked "who would win, X or Y?" he responded (paraphrased)....

"Whoever the author wants to win. If it's a Spiderman title, Spiderman finds a way to win. This isn't science, you know."

My two teef.

Sangy was pretty good at killing Khornate Greater Daemons. I don't see why Angry Ron should be any different!

important question. is this deamon prince angron or pre-ascendance angron?

Sangy wrecks either so it doesn't matter, matter of fact I'd wager sangy would best the DP angorn easier, what having fought so many of the greater demons

Sanguinius. Angron is a beast in combat, but 1v1 isn't so much his style, he's something you let out of the cage to tear apart a group.

skolirvarden wrote:
Sanguinius. Angron is a beast in combat, but 1v1 isn't so much his style, he's something you let out of the cage to tear apart a group.

even his TT rules reflect this.

Remember he literally fought his way out of 50ft of permacrete that had collapsed on him, then managed to not only stop an emperor class titans stomp(saving lorgar), but hold it in place untill chaos titans captured it.

I thought it was warhound titan


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And I think russ intentionally lost to make his point. I read in a recent book russ was talking to someone and he said he knew he can beat all his brothers. Since he has sparred with all of them.

yellowfever wrote:
I thought it was warhound titan


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And I think russ intentionally lost to make his point. I read in a recent book russ was talking to someone and he said he knew he can beat all his brothers. Since he has sparred with all of them.

When somebody says "I can beat everyone" this probably means they're lying considering they're the most biased source that could come from.

yellowfever wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I think russ intentionally lost to make his point. I read in a recent book Russ was talking to someone and he said he knew he can beat all his brothers. Since he has sparred with all of them.

If it was the Betrayer, then Russ did intentionally used himself as a bait; on the other hand, had he intended to loss to Angron? Well, I mean it's not impossible.

Russ having him surrounded in combat would just make him a Highrider (one of the slavers from his homeworld) to Angron. And losing to him to prove that such tactics are superior... I don't think Russ could do something more foolish.

On the subject of the thread I think Sanguinius would win unless he would start flying. Angron would probably get uncontrollably mad, grab hold of an ankle and... carnage.

Personally in the 1v1 enclosed area I go angron all day, meet on a battlefield in the open and sang will take it no problem, remember in the books sang is the best close combat fighter hands down, hours said he had to recruit angron because he is the only one with a HOPE of beating sang

Open battlefield, its Sanguinius because wings. Fly up and take the high ground+manueverability. In a cage match, Angron, because he attacks with absolutely no relenting. He attacks for furiously and viciously you simply must defend or be killed, leaving no room to mount your own offensive.

That said, Sanguinius is not exactly a wimp in CC. He would probably be the one with the best chance of beating Angron at all.

Voted Angron because in the grim dark universe, Sanguinius would think he had the upper hand, then have his head ripped clean off in a sudden sweep of Angrons rage... but we all know who would really win between Sanguin and Angron... Russ.

Who would win? Apharius, thats who.

Tzeentch would win. He's been manipulating the Alpha Legion all along. Alphas are Tzeeentch's 'other' legion (the schemers, whereas the Thousand Sons are his magic boys), and the best thing is they think they're working for their own interests.

All joking aside, Angron was trained and cut his teeth as a gladiator. He knows one-on-one and small group combat better than any other Primarch. He'd tear Sanguinus apart if he could reach him.

Of course, reaching Sanguinus would be the issue in an open field fight. I'm thinking Angron doesn't go in much for the kind of long-range shooting you'd need to bring Sanguinus down and make the fight a 'fair' close combat brawl.

Of course a 'fair fight' against Angron isn't fair at all. A berserk Primarch in your face is a scary prospect. I'm not sure how much power Angron really gained when he ascended, other than the obvious 'Butchers Nails Ain't Gonna Kill Me' thing.

So cage match, angron has the fight in the bag.

But Open field battle, sang has it.

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
So cage match, angron has the fight in the bag.

But Open field battle, sang has it.

Not necessarily. Sanguinius could beat Angron without the wings, so long as he has room to maneuver (ie a mid-to-large-sized cage). You can't forget that the Butcher's Nails turn Angron into the Hulk, only killable. Basically "Angron smash!" The whole time that he fights. Angron can do tactics and fight smart, but once the fight commences the Butcher's Nails consume him and he become a beast of rage and will do nothing but attack nonstop.


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Warboss Gorhack wrote:
Tzeentch would win. He's been manipulating the Alpha Legion all along. Alphas are Tzeeentch's 'other' legion (the schemers, whereas the Thousand Sons are his magic boys), and the best thing is they think they're working for their own interests.

All joking aside, Angron was trained and cut his teeth as a gladiator. He knows one-on-one and small group combat better than any other Primarch. He'd tear Sanguinus apart if he could reach him.

Of course, reaching Sanguinus would be the issue in an open field fight. I'm thinking Angron doesn't go in much for the kind of long-range shooting you'd need to bring Sanguinus down and make the fight a 'fair' close combat brawl.

Of course a 'fair fight' against Angron isn't fair at all. A berserk Primarch in your face is a scary prospect. I'm not sure how much power Angron really gained when he ascended, other than the obvious 'Butchers Nails Ain't Gonna Kill Me' thing.

That Gladiator training is down to instinct, now, though. He can't think, he can't parry, he can't feign, he can only ATTACK. A warrior like Sanguinius who can think without thinking, AND has the instinct and reflexes down, will win.

BTW, in case none of you have actually been in a fight, the only way to think is to think without thinking. It makes zero sense, but that's the only way to describe. Basically, you have no tie to consider things and your brain is moving so fast that you only really form impressions and notions in your head without actually forming thoughts. If yiu take the time to form actual thoughts, then you get the gak smacked outta ya. However, this takes a cold detatchment to do, and if you fight with rage then all thought goes about the window except for SMASH!!!

 dusara217 wrote:

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
So cage match, angron has the fight in the bag.

But Open field battle, sang has it.

Not necessarily. Sanguinius could beat Angron without the wings, so long as he has room to maneuver (ie a mid-to-large-sized cage). You can't forget that the Butcher's Nails turn Angron into the Hulk, only killable. Basically "Angron smash!" The whole time that he fights. Angron can do tactics and fight smart, but once the fight commences the Butcher's Nails consume him and he become a beast of rage and will do nothing but attack nonstop.


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Warboss Gorhack wrote:
Tzeentch would win. He's been manipulating the Alpha Legion all along. Alphas are Tzeeentch's 'other' legion (the schemers, whereas the Thousand Sons are his magic boys), and the best thing is they think they're working for their own interests.

All joking aside, Angron was trained and cut his teeth as a gladiator. He knows one-on-one and small group combat better than any other Primarch. He'd tear Sanguinus apart if he could reach him.

Of course, reaching Sanguinus would be the issue in an open field fight. I'm thinking Angron doesn't go in much for the kind of long-range shooting you'd need to bring Sanguinus down and make the fight a 'fair' close combat brawl.

Of course a 'fair fight' against Angron isn't fair at all. A berserk Primarch in your face is a scary prospect. I'm not sure how much power Angron really gained when he ascended, other than the obvious 'Butchers Nails Ain't Gonna Kill Me' thing.

That Gladiator training is down to instinct, now, though. He can't think, he can't parry, he can't feign, he can only ATTACK. A warrior like Sanguinius who can think without thinking, AND has the instinct and reflexes down, will win.

BTW, in case none of you have actually been in a fight, the only way to think is to think without thinking. It makes zero sense, but that's the only way to describe. Basically, you have no tie to consider things and your brain is moving so fast that you only really form impressions and notions in your head without actually forming thoughts. If yiu take the time to form actual thoughts, then you get the gak smacked outta ya. However, this takes a cold detatchment to do, and if you fight with rage then all thought goes about the window except for SMASH!!!

The closest I have come to true fights is a few boxing matches and competitive judo. If the enemy is attack non-stop, you can of course block and upset his rhythm and go on the offensive yourself. Except that that relies on them fearing to get hit and take a hit too, which Angron doesn't. Even if Sangy was able to parry and get a hit or two on, barring killing strokes, Angron would ignore the wound and continue to attack, which leaves Sangy with no defence and very very vulnerable.

 Deadshot wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
So cage match, angron has the fight in the bag.

But Open field battle, sang has it.

Not necessarily. Sanguinius could beat Angron without the wings, so long as he has room to maneuver (ie a mid-to-large-sized cage). You can't forget that the Butcher's Nails turn Angron into the Hulk, only killable. Basically "Angron smash!" The whole time that he fights. Angron can do tactics and fight smart, but once the fight commences the Butcher's Nails consume him and he become a beast of rage and will do nothing but attack nonstop.


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Warboss Gorhack wrote:
Tzeentch would win. He's been manipulating the Alpha Legion all along. Alphas are Tzeeentch's 'other' legion (the schemers, whereas the Thousand Sons are his magic boys), and the best thing is they think they're working for their own interests.

All joking aside, Angron was trained and cut his teeth as a gladiator. He knows one-on-one and small group combat better than any other Primarch. He'd tear Sanguinus apart if he could reach him.

Of course, reaching Sanguinus would be the issue in an open field fight. I'm thinking Angron doesn't go in much for the kind of long-range shooting you'd need to bring Sanguinus down and make the fight a 'fair' close combat brawl.

Of course a 'fair fight' against Angron isn't fair at all. A berserk Primarch in your face is a scary prospect. I'm not sure how much power Angron really gained when he ascended, other than the obvious 'Butchers Nails Ain't Gonna Kill Me' thing.

That Gladiator training is down to instinct, now, though. He can't think, he can't parry, he can't feign, he can only ATTACK. A warrior like Sanguinius who can think without thinking, AND has the instinct and reflexes down, will win.

BTW, in case none of you have actually been in a fight, the only way to think is to think without thinking. It makes zero sense, but that's the only way to describe. Basically, you have no tie to consider things and your brain is moving so fast that you only really form impressions and notions in your head without actually forming thoughts. If yiu take the time to form actual thoughts, then you get the gak smacked outta ya. However, this takes a cold detatchment to do, and if you fight with rage then all thought goes about the window except for SMASH!!!

The closest I have come to true fights is a few boxing matches and competitive judo. If the enemy is attack non-stop, you can of course block and upset his rhythm and go on the offensive yourself. Except that that relies on them fearing to get hit and take a hit too, which Angron doesn't. Even if Sangy was able to parry and get a hit or two on, barring killing strokes, Angron would ignore the wound and continue to attack, which leaves Sangy with no defence and very very vulnerable.

Sanguinius has agility that Angron simply lacks. If it came down to it, he could give Angron Death by a Thousand Cuts.

Sanguinius is no louch in the physical strength category either. He caught Ka'Bandha's axe between his hands and simply snapped it, without much effort based on the description. He also threw his sword strong enough to pin a greater daemon to a wall, and the daemon couldn't pull it back out. Angron going full butcher's nails crazy doesn't necessarily secure the win for him.

I think the problem here is there are a lot of Blood Angels weighing in and very few World Eaters. Besides, it doesn't matter who wins, Curze will just stab the winner from behind to finish him off.

It will not take many hits from angron to kill Sangy. Just because angron is a angry man, does not mean he cant fight well. That is all he knows, he can fight very well and I honestly think he can kill sangy if put in a cage match. Dont compare him to a greater daemon and assume sang can take him on. Primarchs are above greater daemon, So this will be a completely different secnario.

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
It will not take many hits from angron to kill Sangy. Just because angron is a angry man, does not mean he cant fight well. That is all he knows, he can fight very well and I honestly think he can kill sangy if put in a cage match. Dont compare him to a greater daemon and assume sang can take him on. Primarchs are above greater daemon, So this will be a completely different secnario.

Horus himself thought Sanguinius could be an issue for Angron, as did Corax.

 Orblivion wrote:

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
It will not take many hits from angron to kill Sangy. Just because angron is a angry man, does not mean he cant fight well. That is all he knows, he can fight very well and I honestly think he can kill sangy if put in a cage match. Dont compare him to a greater daemon and assume sang can take him on. Primarchs are above greater daemon, So this will be a completely different secnario.

Horus himself thought Sanguinius could be an issue for Angron, as did Corax.

More importantly Horus thought that Sanguinius would be an issue for himself, hence his whole elaborate Daemon world play specifically to try and neutralise Sanguinius.

In the open field Sanguinius has no reason to fight Angron at all - he is not a duelist who might tempt him to test his skills so Sanguinius could just fly up high and shoot Angron in the head repeatedly until he dies if he wanted to. I find it interesting that people seem to think that Sanguinius' wings would be a problem is cage fight - while he obviously wouldn't want to get into a straight up arm wrestle with Angron there are multiple instances in the fluff of Sanguinius showing incredible control of his wings and using them as an additional weapon/shield in combat. They can flick through peoples eyelines as a distraction, as well as deflect blunt blows and disrupt peoples follow throughs (flick the weapon once its past you), and would definitely be usable against Angron because he uses axes, which only have one edge (kinda tricky to do the same tricks against a double edged power sword).

Mortal vs Mortal = Sanguinius.

Sanguinius vs. Deamon Angron (who has wings btw) = Angron all day.

 WhiteDevil wrote:
Mortal vs Mortal = Sanguinius.

Sanguinius vs. Deamon Angron (who has wings btw) = Angron all day.

calling bull on this too. Sang laughs at anything Deamon prince+

besides, the deamon primarchs are, IMO less than they were as normal primarchs, why? several reasons- overconfidence, lazy as hell, losing there "Identity" by the hour. Sang would fly circle around Angron DP, just like any other DP, then bend him over his knee and snap his back.

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:
Last time I did this the lion beat the wolf by votes so this time we will do sanguinious vs angron, who wins in a fight?

Please start names with a capital letter..

 Reality-Torrent wrote:

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:
Last time I did this the lion beat the wolf by votes so this time we will do sanguinious vs angron, who wins in a fight?

Please start names with a capital letter..

also, its Sanguinius IIRC

I think they have equal chances. Though, i lean towards Angron. He's a zerk gladiator. Zerk gladiators tend to know quite well how to win the actual fighting be it archangel knight or whatever. He has a thing going for him - a total lack of self-perservation. He can easilly cope with his arm chopped off if it'd open the opponent for a more damaging strike.

You guys should know Angron is actually very intelligent and calculating, He's not only about rage, Besides I doubt Sanguinius would just "Fly and shoot him in the head" until he dies, Guy's a Primarch that survived being stepped on by a Titan...

Khonsu wrote:
You guys should know Angron is actually very intelligent and calculating, He's not only about rage, Besides I doubt Sanguinius would just "Fly and shoot him in the head" until he dies, Guy's a Primarch that survived being stepped on by a Titan...

No, no, no, RUSS is intelligent and calculating with a Berserker tendency. Angron is literally being consumed by so much rage that it would have killed him had he not been turned into a DP. Once in the battle, Angron knows nothing but rage, while Sanguinius can be cold, calculating, he can think without thinking and through his intelligence mixed with strength of arms win the day.

 dusara217 wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
You guys should know Angron is actually very intelligent and calculating, He's not only about rage, Besides I doubt Sanguinius would just "Fly and shoot him in the head" until he dies, Guy's a Primarch that survived being stepped on by a Titan...

No, no, no, RUSS is intelligent and calculating with a Berserker tendency. Angron is literally being consumed by so much rage that it would have killed him had he not been turned into a DP. Once in the battle, Angron knows nothing but rage, while Sanguinius can be cold, calculating, he can think without thinking and through his intelligence mixed with strength of arms win the day.

Betrayer disagrees with you. During the fight with Guilliman, Lorgar's perspective talks about how Angron's fighting actually does have a strategy and it is surprisingly and frighteningly intelligent, effective and beautiful. Attack, attack so hard the foe doesn't even have a chance to do anything that block, block until he tires and makes a mistake and then he dies.

 Deadshot wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
You guys should know Angron is actually very intelligent and calculating, He's not only about rage, Besides I doubt Sanguinius would just "Fly and shoot him in the head" until he dies, Guy's a Primarch that survived being stepped on by a Titan...

No, no, no, RUSS is intelligent and calculating with a Berserker tendency. Angron is literally being consumed by so much rage that it would have killed him had he not been turned into a DP. Once in the battle, Angron knows nothing but rage, while Sanguinius can be cold, calculating, he can think without thinking and through his intelligence mixed with strength of arms win the day.

Betrayer disagrees with you. During the fight with Guilliman, Lorgar's perspective talks about how Angron's fighting actually does have a strategy and it is surprisingly and frighteningly intelligent, effective and beautiful. Attack, attack so hard the foe doesn't even have a chance to do anything that block, block until he tires and makes a mistake and then he dies.

You just said that his whole strategy is "attack, attack" so I don't see how we disagree on that point. The thing is that the Sanguinius is a skilled and strong and agile enough warrior that he can counter, he can redirrect Angron's strike, he can knock him off balance, etc. sanguinius is a total CC beast, but he also has that advantage of a cold, analytical mind in combat that any truly skilled swordsman must have. Of course, the exception to this is Berserkers, but that cold, calculating minding can always trump a Berzerker so long as he has the skill.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
You guys should know Angron is actually very intelligent and calculating, He's not only about rage, Besides I doubt Sanguinius would just "Fly and shoot him in the head" until he dies, Guy's a Primarch that survived being stepped on by a Titan...

No, no, no, RUSS is intelligent and calculating with a Berserker tendency. Angron is literally being consumed by so much rage that it would have killed him had he not been turned into a DP. Once in the battle, Angron knows nothing but rage, while Sanguinius can be cold, calculating, he can think without thinking and through his intelligence mixed with strength of arms win the day.

Betrayer disagrees with you. During the fight with Guilliman, Lorgar's perspective talks about how Angron's fighting actually does have a strategy and it is surprisingly and frighteningly intelligent, effective and beautiful. Attack, attack so hard the foe doesn't even have a chance to do anything that block, block until he tires and makes a mistake and then he dies.

You just said that his whole strategy is "attack, attack" so I don't see how we disagree on that point. The thing is that the Sanguinius is a skilled and strong and agile enough warrior that he can counter, he can redirrect Angron's strike, he can knock him off balance, etc. sanguinius is a total CC beast, but he also has that advantage of a cold, analytical mind in combat that any truly skilled swordsman must have. Of course, the exception to this is Berserkers, but that cold, calculating minding can always trump a Berzerker so long as he has the skill.

A cold and calculating mind will not universally trump blind aggression. Have you ever been in a fight? Ever seen a proper fight? The guy who knows karate and kung fu rarely gets the opportunity to use it because the other guy is just hammering him with punch after punch and then walloping him on the ground. And Angron has sublime skill of his own. Just a different type of skill.

I guess we eill wait utill we see stats for Sangy when FW throws them out there. I find it hard to believe he will stand up to Angron. But then again, perhaps Fulgrim would be a better match-up for Wingy-Poo.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
I guess we eill wait utill we see stats for Sangy when FW throws them out there. I find it hard to believe he will stand up to Angron. But then again, perhaps Fulgrim would be a better match-up for Wingy-Poo.

Or we might see them fight in the HH series, but that could be 50 years from now.

 dusara217 wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
You guys should know Angron is actually very intelligent and calculating, He's not only about rage, Besides I doubt Sanguinius would just "Fly and shoot him in the head" until he dies, Guy's a Primarch that survived being stepped on by a Titan...

No, no, no, RUSS is intelligent and calculating with a Berserker tendency. Angron is literally being consumed by so much rage that it would have killed him had he not been turned into a DP. Once in the battle, Angron knows nothing but rage, while Sanguinius can be cold, calculating, he can think without thinking and through his intelligence mixed with strength of arms win the day.

Russ and intelligent in the same sentence, Does not compute.
Besides Angron was being slowly killed by the Nails not by his rage.

Angron and Sanguinius may or may not be peers in martial might.

But Sanguinius is considerably more mobile than Angron, and is a very powerful psyker as well. These facts probably tip the scales and give him the win.

I dont think that Angron would win having read some of the books. I remember reading something about Horus and Logar talking about trying to keep Sanguinous away from Terra, through direct attack or distraction, however Logar have the gift a preminition stats that no matter what they do there is no method that Horus can deploy to keep him away from Terra during the seig. They also stat that the only two people that have a glimore of hope to beat him is Angron or Horus himself, which he does by cheating.

 Mojo1jojo wrote:
I dont think that Angron would win having read some of the books. I remember reading something about Horus and Logar talking about trying to keep Sanguinous away from Terra, through direct attack or distraction, however Logar have the gift a preminition stats that no matter what they do there is no method that Horus can deploy to keep him away from Terra during the seig. They also stat that the only two people that have a glimore of hope to beat him is Angron or Horus himself, which he does by cheating.

This isn't a game(Well Technically it is) nothing constitutes "Cheating", Besides it wasn't like he was warp infused by choice.

Fun question...

Angron is clearly the more RAGE fighter and brute strength and ferocity, which would work against 99.9% in the universe. However versus another primarch, thats different. Sang is a great fighter fighter with divine nature (if you ask me). In the book Deliverance Lost, when the Imperial Fists are discussing how this heresy will end, Dorn is quoted having said that "Sang would be the one to kill Horus" and "my brother, sang is the Angel of Death."

I believe sang wins IMO

But great thread!!! and its open to interpretation all day!!!!

Sangunius only because I know him so well.
Remember, the Emperor created the primarchs from his own DNA. so, that means the primarchs are basically clones of the Emperor.

How could Angron hope to stop this..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2m45TLVKRs

I like to think that Gladiators do well in 1v1 scenarios, even with all of Sangies plot armor he'll have a bad day.

 Deadshot wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
You guys should know Angron is actually very intelligent and calculating, He's not only about rage, Besides I doubt Sanguinius would just "Fly and shoot him in the head" until he dies, Guy's a Primarch that survived being stepped on by a Titan...

No, no, no, RUSS is intelligent and calculating with a Berserker tendency. Angron is literally being consumed by so much rage that it would have killed him had he not been turned into a DP. Once in the battle, Angron knows nothing but rage, while Sanguinius can be cold, calculating, he can think without thinking and through his intelligence mixed with strength of arms win the day.

Betrayer disagrees with you. During the fight with Guilliman, Lorgar's perspective talks about how Angron's fighting actually does have a strategy and it is surprisingly and frighteningly intelligent, effective and beautiful. Attack, attack so hard the foe doesn't even have a chance to do anything that block, block until he tires and makes a mistake and then he dies.

You just said that his whole strategy is "attack, attack" so I don't see how we disagree on that point. The thing is that the Sanguinius is a skilled and strong and agile enough warrior that he can counter, he can redirrect Angron's strike, he can knock him off balance, etc. sanguinius is a total CC beast, but he also has that advantage of a cold, analytical mind in combat that any truly skilled swordsman must have. Of course, the exception to this is Berserkers, but that cold, calculating minding can always trump a Berzerker so long as he has the skill.

A cold and calculating mind will not universally trump blind aggression. Have you ever been in a fight? Ever seen a proper fight? The guy who knows karate and kung fu rarely gets the opportunity to use it because the other guy is just hammering him with punch after punch and then walloping him on the ground. And Angron has sublime skill of his own. Just a different type of skill.

As it happens, I HAVE been in a fight. I have been the guy hammering away, mindlessly hitting so hard that my foe cannot think straight and I have been the guy on the receiving end. I have also been the skilled Martial Artist who allowed my foe who weighed at least a hundred pounds more than me to waste his energy trying to batter me into submission while I simply parried and evaded. I proceeded to hit him in a few pressure points and then break his wrist after he had got himself good and tired.
Now, the tactics that I described that I used would do no good against the Primarch, as Angron could potentially attack Sanguinius for days before tiring, if not weeks. However good defensive fighter knows when and how to take the aggressor and use his own energy against him, that's basically the entire philosophy of Modern Arnis - structure and fluidity as well as the perfect application of force to redirect your opponent's energy with a little of your own added into the pot. It is rather unfortunate that I have not had the chance to actually practice Arnis in a few years, but I do practice Kempo on a regular basis, and I know for a fact that your intermediate or novice Kung-Fu man may lose to all-out aggression, but any advanced Kung Fu practitioner will trump Mr. Heavyweight Boxer.
But, of course, thinking without thinking - a shadow of a thought, really, but analytically nonetheless - will allow a skilled warrior to defeat the berzerker who attacks mindlessly. I have learned this the hard way, and I have the shame to prove it.

Also, in response to the Russ question, that is a common misconception. Let's use the wolf as an example. Wolves are cunning creatures (or at least in comparison to, say, a bear), and can hunt with very effective tactics and well-controlled ferocity. If a wolf gets out of control, he and his pack does not eat, and he goes hungry. If you ever see a wolf cornered, that wolf will fight harder than any other creature in the world, it is truly a magnificent sight. So take the hunting wolf analogy, and that is essentially Russ. He will attack ferociously, he will see his prey and set his traps and attack attack, block, counter, attack, attack, attack, parry, feign, backhand, and boom! there goes your head. Whereas Angron is just attack, attack, oh look a sword in my belly, ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK, IMMA KILL THIS BISH, RAGE FURY STRIKE, ATTACK, ATTACK, IMMA KEEP ATTACKING EVEN THOUGH ITS JUST A CORPSE NOW!!!!!! See the difference?

I remember during this last Christmas, my aunt, clearly a 100 pounds more than me, went in for a hug. I began to run away , trying to expend her energy but to no avail. She started her relentless kisses to my cheek, all while I was trying my best to parry and evade. Her weight and implacable aggression saw me good and tired.

Also, where are boxers losing to Kung Fu practitioners?

I feel that the Primarchs , for the most part, should have a 50/50 chance in regards to beating each other. They all had unique traits and skill sets that made them dangerous. Withholding Lorgar, x vs y would always be a fairly even match.

Ave Dominus Nox wrote:
I remember during this last Christmas, my aunt, clearly a 100 pounds more than me, went in for a hug. I began to run away , trying to expend her energy but to no avail. She started her relentless kisses to my cheek, all while I was trying my best to parry and evade. Her weight and implacable aggression saw me good and tired.

Also, where are boxers losing to Kung Fu practitioners?

I feel that the Primarchs , for the most part, should have a 50/50 chance in regards to beating each other. They all had unique traits and skill sets that made them dangerous. Withholding Lorgar, x vs y would always be a fairly even match.

Ok, first of all, you never let anybody who is bigger than you get any closer than arm's length. If they are close enough to get you in a bear hug, it's all over unless you yourself are a fantastically talented grappler with lots of experience and/or training. That's just basic common sense 150 lb vs. 250 lb, the 250 guy just has to sit on you. Now, that being said, you can cause excruciating pain if you hit the correct pressure points in the correct manner, which can give a huge bonus in grappling (though you rarely get the opportunity to actually use this due to the speed at which ground fights move).
Second of all, Kung Fu was specifically designed by small guys to beat big guys. Kung Fu is an art where, if used correctly, you can take almost anybody out. Although, Kung Fu was designed by small people for small people and thus it doesn't work as well for the big guys. One Martial Art that is basically better than Kung fu is Shaolin Kenpo (the Martial Art taught at the Shaolin temples), which combines the circles and redirection of Kung Fu with the lines and power of Karate with a perfect mastery of rotational torque and marriage of gravity. These factors together will trump any boxer.

To put it simply, boxing is a line Martial Art. It was designed by big guys for big guys, and is almost all "muscling". Kung Fu is a circle Martial Art. It was designed by little guys for little guys specifically to deal with big guys. The circle beats the line when applied with skill - the circle requires brain + skill/training. The line simply requires basic human instinct, though is best when done with brawn. Something that Kempo instructors will often say is "Don't muscle it". That is to say, "don't be stupid". When you "muscle" something, you only use your muscle instead of skill. When you do something properly, like a standing shoulder lock, instead of "muscling" it, then you will receive far better results.

To tie this in with the thread, Angron is pure rage, and thus he is basically The Hulk with a couple of Chainblades (nonstop "muscling it", though he is massively strong). Sanguinius is large as well, but he lacks the rage and unstoppable ferocity of Angron and replaces it with cunning and skill. Sanguinius would use things such as parries and dirty tricks to knock Angron off balance or to simply trick him into opening his guard so that Sanguinius can deliver a killing blow.

Also, everybody is outright discounting the fact that Sanguinius's wings are a boon. They are INSANELY strong (they can lift Sanguius into the sky when he's fully armoured without strain - that's at least a ton - and they can also lift Sanguinius + a Daemon Prince into the air with minimal starin - easily a ton and a half, maybe 2 -), and they can be powerful weapons. For instance, Sanguinius can parry a downward slash of Angron's chainblade while he steps diagonally forward and slams his wings down on each side of Angron's head (temples). This would, at the very least, leave Angron stunned as the temples are thin points in the skull and that would easily kill an ordinary Astartes due to brain damage - not that Angron has much of brain to begin with

BTW, in case you don't know what a parry is, it is where you redirect your opponent's strike. For instance, if I were to parry a punch to the face, I would simply push it to the side as it comes at me - easier said than done, i'll admit. I've been punched in the face many times when I parried improperly. The same thing applies in the kind of swordfighting that the Primarchs would engage in; redirrect Angron's blade then pull in slightly and you'll knock him off balance.

Well, given all that, Sanguinius still ended up dead. Maybe he wasn't as smart as we think.

Angron may seem like he is only Attack attack kill rage! but there is much more to it thenn that.

In his rage he is still amazingly skilled, he forces openings, keeps an eye out for parries etc. Maybe not to the same level as sanguinius but he is hardly fighting like the hulk. Russ ended at his mercy crawling on the floor trying to hold back angron.

Its about 50/50 i'd say.

Alto horus made me believe angron would actualy win, him saying there a good match for himself combined with his thinking of sanguinius beign the greatest of themm all may make him overestimate the angel

Amoras wrote:
Angron may seem like he is only Attack attack kill rage! but there is much more to it thenn that.

In his rage he is still amazingly skilled, he forces openings, keeps an eye out for parries etc. Maybe not to the same level as sanguinius but he is hardly fighting like the hulk. Russ ended at his mercy crawling on the floor trying to hold back angron.

Its about 50/50 i'd say.

Alto horus made me believe angron would actualy win, him saying there a good match for himself combined with his thinking of sanguinius beign the greatest of themm all may make him overestimate the angel

He literally has cranial implants that force him to feel nothing but massive, unctorllable, insane amounts of rage. After a couple of decades, attack kill rage is all he is. Originally, he probably did fight with technique and artistry, but rage is his tool now due to the Butcher's Nails. Also, I never said that he wasn't skilled, it's just that rage is what dominates him and thus the skill does not come to the fore, rather his anger does.

 dusara217 wrote:

Amoras wrote:
Angron may seem like he is only Attack attack kill rage! but there is much more to it thenn that.

In his rage he is still amazingly skilled, he forces openings, keeps an eye out for parries etc. Maybe not to the same level as sanguinius but he is hardly fighting like the hulk. Russ ended at his mercy crawling on the floor trying to hold back angron.

Its about 50/50 i'd say.

Alto horus made me believe angron would actualy win, him saying there a good match for himself combined with his thinking of sanguinius beign the greatest of themm all may make him overestimate the angel

He literally has cranial implants that force him to feel nothing but massive, unctorllable, insane amounts of rage. After a couple of decades, attack kill rage is all he is. Originally, he probably did fight with technique and artistry, but rage is his tool now due to the Butcher's Nails. Also, I never said that he wasn't skilled, it's just that rage is what dominates him and thus the skill does not come to the fore, rather his anger does.

Betrayer disagrees, as it shows when fighting against Guilliman he does indeed use skill. Like I said ages ago, its a different form of skill, but it is skill non-the-less. You make him sound like a slavering rabid attack dog. He's not, he's a brutal, aggressive and intelligent fighter. You DO NOT win fights by not having intelligence. You DO NOT succeed as a berserker or soldier if you are dumb. BErserkers use anger to fuel their energy, adrenaline and power. Being a berserker doesn't mean you are a slobbering maniac, it means you use your aggression to fuel your body,while keeping your mind clear, as for most, anger clouds judgement. Berserkers don't let their anger cloud their mind, rather they use it to focus their rage into combat. So if you are trying to argue that Angron is a mindless killing machine, which he isn't, otherwise he'd just kill his own side too, he can't be a berserker.

I think Angron gets underetimated by a lot of people. First, on the wolf analogy, if you think that when cornered "that wolf will fight harder than any other creature in the world" try cornering a leapord or tiger. Or get between a momma bear and her cub. Second, yes, Sang is a great fighter but Angron only needs one or two hits to finish him off. A chainblade would be mush harder to parry than a conventional blade, or even a power weapon. The very movement of the chain would deflect the parrying blade. And lastly, on the absurdity that Sang would use his wings as a weapon. That would just make them an easy target for Angron's axe. I am also envisoning in X-Men when Wolfsbane ripped Angel's wings off. I could see Angron doing that.

Angron is a very skilled fighter, And he knows very well how to fight in 1v1 combat. He isnt a general when ragging , but he can still fight effectively.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
I think Angron gets underetimated by a lot of people. First, on the wolf analogy, if you think that when cornered "that wolf will fight harder than any other creature in the world" try cornering a leapord or tiger. Or get between a momma bear and her cub. Second, yes, Sang is a great fighter but Angron only needs one or two hits to finish him off. A chainblade would be mush harder to parry than a conventional blade, or even a power weapon. The very movement of the chain would deflect the parrying blade. And lastly, on the absurdity that Sang would use his wings as a weapon. That would just make them an easy target for Angron's axe. I am also envisoning in X-Men when Wolfsbane ripped Angel's wings off. I could see Angron doing that.

Sangy could indeed use his wings to fight. In addition to flying up to gain high ground, he could also use them yo bat away attacks by thumping the side or back of Angron's axe's, away from the cutting edge to redirect the stroke. He could also buffet Angron with them to distract him. In Fear to Tread

 Deadshot wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Amoras wrote:
Angron may seem like he is only Attack attack kill rage! but there is much more to it thenn that.

In his rage he is still amazingly skilled, he forces openings, keeps an eye out for parries etc. Maybe not to the same level as sanguinius but he is hardly fighting like the hulk. Russ ended at his mercy crawling on the floor trying to hold back angron.

Its about 50/50 i'd say.

Alto horus made me believe angron would actualy win, him saying there a good match for himself combined with his thinking of sanguinius beign the greatest of themm all may make him overestimate the angel

He literally has cranial implants that force him to feel nothing but massive, unctorllable, insane amounts of rage. After a couple of decades, attack kill rage is all he is. Originally, he probably did fight with technique and artistry, but rage is his tool now due to the Butcher's Nails. Also, I never said that he wasn't skilled, it's just that rage is what dominates him and thus the skill does not come to the fore, rather his anger does.

Betrayer disagrees, as it shows when fighting against Guilliman he does indeed use skill. Like I said ages ago, its a different form of skill, but it is skill non-the-less. You make him sound like a slavering rabid attack dog. He's not, he's a brutal, aggressive and intelligent fighter. You DO NOT win fights by not having intelligence. You DO NOT succeed as a berserker or soldier if you are dumb. BErserkers use anger to fuel their energy, adrenaline and power. Being a berserker doesn't mean you are a slobbering maniac, it means you use your aggression to fuel your body,while keeping your mind clear, as for most, anger clouds judgement. Berserkers don't let their anger cloud their mind, rather they use it to focus their rage into combat. So if you are trying to argue that Angron is a mindless killing machine, which he isn't, otherwise he'd just kill his own side too, he can't be a berserker.

I'm just going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have no idea what the Butcher's Nails are. Here's a brief summay: neutral implants that dramatically increase aggression and feelings of hate and rage. As time goes on, the feelings of rage increase exponentially. In normal humans, they gradually erode the brain until the host dies. Angron has had these Butcher's Nails implanted in his skull for more than a century. His Primarch healing capabilities are all that have kept him from turning into an incoherent ravening rage beast that subsequently dies from brain damage. As it is, the Emperor expected Angron to die after a few centuries from the Nails.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, what you just described was Russ.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Amoras wrote:
Angron may seem like he is only Attack attack kill rage! but there is much more to it thenn that.

In his rage he is still amazingly skilled, he forces openings, keeps an eye out for parries etc. Maybe not to the same level as sanguinius but he is hardly fighting like the hulk. Russ ended at his mercy crawling on the floor trying to hold back angron.

Its about 50/50 i'd say.

Alto horus made me believe angron would actualy win, him saying there a good match for himself combined with his thinking of sanguinius beign the greatest of themm all may make him overestimate the angel

He literally has cranial implants that force him to feel nothing but massive, unctorllable, insane amounts of rage. After a couple of decades, attack kill rage is all he is. Originally, he probably did fight with technique and artistry, but rage is his tool now due to the Butcher's Nails. Also, I never said that he wasn't skilled, it's just that rage is what dominates him and thus the skill does not come to the fore, rather his anger does.

Betrayer disagrees, as it shows when fighting against Guilliman he does indeed use skill. Like I said ages ago, its a different form of skill, but it is skill non-the-less. You make him sound like a slavering rabid attack dog. He's not, he's a brutal, aggressive and intelligent fighter. You DO NOT win fights by not having intelligence. You DO NOT succeed as a berserker or soldier if you are dumb. BErserkers use anger to fuel their energy, adrenaline and power. Being a berserker doesn't mean you are a slobbering maniac, it means you use your aggression to fuel your body,while keeping your mind clear, as for most, anger clouds judgement. Berserkers don't let their anger cloud their mind, rather they use it to focus their rage into combat. So if you are trying to argue that Angron is a mindless killing machine, which he isn't, otherwise he'd just kill his own side too, he can't be a berserker.

I'm just going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have no idea what the Butcher's Nails are. Here's a brief summay: neutral implants that dramatically increase aggression and feelings of hate and rage. As time goes on, the feelings of rage increase exponentially. In normal humans, they gradually erode the brain until the host dies. Angron has had these Butcher's Nails implanted in his skull for more than a century. His Primarch healing capabilities are all that have kept him from turning into an incoherent ravening rage beast that subsequently dies from brain damage. As it is, the Emperor expected Angron to die after a few centuries from the Nails.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, what you just described was Russ.

Yes, you just described what everyone already knew. They make you angry as feth. Doesn't affect your skill in combat, just your anger.

And yes, both Russ and Angron are the same. The difference comes outside of battle, where Angron is constantly angry and aggressive unlike Russ who is rather docile. Angron also has little variance in his tactics. Whereas Russ can deploy in a number of ways, Angron basically only knows how to kill the living feth out of stuff. Crude and simplistic but effective tactics.

 Deadshot wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Amoras wrote:
Angron may seem like he is only Attack attack kill rage! but there is much more to it thenn that.

In his rage he is still amazingly skilled, he forces openings, keeps an eye out for parries etc. Maybe not to the same level as sanguinius but he is hardly fighting like the hulk. Russ ended at his mercy crawling on the floor trying to hold back angron.

Its about 50/50 i'd say.

Alto horus made me believe angron would actualy win, him saying there a good match for himself combined with his thinking of sanguinius beign the greatest of themm all may make him overestimate the angel

He literally has cranial implants that force him to feel nothing but massive, unctorllable, insane amounts of rage. After a couple of decades, attack kill rage is all he is. Originally, he probably did fight with technique and artistry, but rage is his tool now due to the Butcher's Nails. Also, I never said that he wasn't skilled, it's just that rage is what dominates him and thus the skill does not come to the fore, rather his anger does.

Betrayer disagrees, as it shows when fighting against Guilliman he does indeed use skill. Like I said ages ago, its a different form of skill, but it is skill non-the-less. You make him sound like a slavering rabid attack dog. He's not, he's a brutal, aggressive and intelligent fighter. You DO NOT win fights by not having intelligence. You DO NOT succeed as a berserker or soldier if you are dumb. BErserkers use anger to fuel their energy, adrenaline and power. Being a berserker doesn't mean you are a slobbering maniac, it means you use your aggression to fuel your body,while keeping your mind clear, as for most, anger clouds judgement. Berserkers don't let their anger cloud their mind, rather they use it to focus their rage into combat. So if you are trying to argue that Angron is a mindless killing machine, which he isn't, otherwise he'd just kill his own side too, he can't be a berserker.

I'm just going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have no idea what the Butcher's Nails are. Here's a brief summay: neutral implants that dramatically increase aggression and feelings of hate and rage. As time goes on, the feelings of rage increase exponentially. In normal humans, they gradually erode the brain until the host dies. Angron has had these Butcher's Nails implanted in his skull for more than a century. His Primarch healing capabilities are all that have kept him from turning into an incoherent ravening rage beast that subsequently dies from brain damage. As it is, the Emperor expected Angron to die after a few centuries from the Nails.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, what you just described was Russ.

Yes, you just described what everyone already knew. They make you angry as feth. Doesn't affect your skill in combat, just your anger.

And yes, both Russ and Angron are the same. The difference comes outside of battle, where Angron is constantly angry and aggressive unlike Russ who is rather docile. Angron also has little variance in his tactics. Whereas Russ can deploy in a number of ways, Angron basically only knows how to kill the living feth out of stuff. Crude and simplistic but effective tactics.

Have you ever actually fought when you're angry? It directly affects your judgment and causes you to go balls-to-the-wall attack, you turn into a raging brute. Fighting angry is never a good idea.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Amoras wrote:
Angron may seem like he is only Attack attack kill rage! but there is much more to it thenn that.

In his rage he is still amazingly skilled, he forces openings, keeps an eye out for parries etc. Maybe not to the same level as sanguinius but he is hardly fighting like the hulk. Russ ended at his mercy crawling on the floor trying to hold back angron.

Its about 50/50 i'd say.

Alto horus made me believe angron would actualy win, him saying there a good match for himself combined with his thinking of sanguinius beign the greatest of themm all may make him overestimate the angel

He literally has cranial implants that force him to feel nothing but massive, unctorllable, insane amounts of rage. After a couple of decades, attack kill rage is all he is. Originally, he probably did fight with technique and artistry, but rage is his tool now due to the Butcher's Nails. Also, I never said that he wasn't skilled, it's just that rage is what dominates him and thus the skill does not come to the fore, rather his anger does.

Betrayer disagrees, as it shows when fighting against Guilliman he does indeed use skill. Like I said ages ago, its a different form of skill, but it is skill non-the-less. You make him sound like a slavering rabid attack dog. He's not, he's a brutal, aggressive and intelligent fighter. You DO NOT win fights by not having intelligence. You DO NOT succeed as a berserker or soldier if you are dumb. BErserkers use anger to fuel their energy, adrenaline and power. Being a berserker doesn't mean you are a slobbering maniac, it means you use your aggression to fuel your body,while keeping your mind clear, as for most, anger clouds judgement. Berserkers don't let their anger cloud their mind, rather they use it to focus their rage into combat. So if you are trying to argue that Angron is a mindless killing machine, which he isn't, otherwise he'd just kill his own side too, he can't be a berserker.

I'm just going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have no idea what the Butcher's Nails are. Here's a brief summay: neutral implants that dramatically increase aggression and feelings of hate and rage. As time goes on, the feelings of rage increase exponentially. In normal humans, they gradually erode the brain until the host dies. Angron has had these Butcher's Nails implanted in his skull for more than a century. His Primarch healing capabilities are all that have kept him from turning into an incoherent ravening rage beast that subsequently dies from brain damage. As it is, the Emperor expected Angron to die after a few centuries from the Nails.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, what you just described was Russ.

Yes, you just described what everyone already knew. They make you angry as feth. Doesn't affect your skill in combat, just your anger.

And yes, both Russ and Angron are the same. The difference comes outside of battle, where Angron is constantly angry and aggressive unlike Russ who is rather docile. Angron also has little variance in his tactics. Whereas Russ can deploy in a number of ways, Angron basically only knows how to kill the living feth out of stuff. Crude and simplistic but effective tactics.

Have you ever actually fought when you're angry? It directly affects your judgment and causes you to go balls-to-the-wall attack, you turn into a raging brute. Fighting angry is never a good idea.

In this huge post pyramid you might (or might not) find a post where I detail exactly how a berserker fights. They specifically DO NOT allow their anger to cloud their mind and judgement, they se it to provide adrenaline to fuel their bodies and agression to lend power and ferocity to their attacks.

 dusara217 wrote:

He literally has cranial implants that force him to feel nothing but massive, unctorllable, insane amounts of rage. After a couple of decades, attack kill rage is all he is. Originally, he probably did fight with technique and artistry, but rage is his tool now due to the Butcher's Nails.

Can you give some quotes on Angron going stupid uncontrollable angry meat loosing all skill and tactix or you're just making things up?

 koooaei wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

He literally has cranial implants that force him to feel nothing but massive, unctorllable, insane amounts of rage. After a couple of decades, attack kill rage is all he is. Originally, he probably did fight with technique and artistry, but rage is his tool now due to the Butcher's Nails.

Can you give some quotes on Angron going stupid uncontrollable angry meat loosing all skill and tactix or you're just making things up?

First two things that come to mind is Angron going bat-shat crazy when Girlyman steps on a skull and when he has an entire castle wall dropped on his ass and busts out with his ANGREHNESS and slaughters the survivors of the Auretian Technocracy due to RAGE. I'll go quote-hunting, give me a few minutes/hours.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

‘Blood for Horus!’ shouted Angron and leapt from the breach. The primarch landed with a thunderous impact that split the stone beneath him, his chain-glaive sweeping out and cleaving the entire front rank of Brotherhood warriors to bloody rain. Ephraim Guardia died in the first seconds of Angron’s attack, his body cloven through the chest with a single blow. Angron howled in battle lust as he hacked his way through the Brotherhood with great, disembowelling sweeps of his monstrous, roaring weapon. The madness of his slaughter was terrifying, but the warriors of the Brotherhood were not about to die without a fight.

Right there you have Angron getting pissed and attacking the remnants of the Auretian Technocracy's fighting force, despite the Sons of Horus already accepting their surrender and them being almost completely docile and waiting to be imprisoned. Which is not something that anybody would do unless utterly consumed by ANGREHNISS. This from False Gods, Page 329.

I just read like fifty other threads on the subject and I'm gonna revise my position to 50/50. They both have insane, completely unrealistic buffs that would assist them in combat. For instance, Sanguinius has wings, Angron has RAGE. Sanguinius has a level head and centuries of assault marine experience, Angron has ANGREH MAHRINE TACTICAL EXPERIENCE. Sanguinius has the Magic Laser Spear, Angron has FUREH. Sanguinius has what might be called "artistry", while Angron has RAGE. Both have vast amounts of training and undoubtedly excellent technique. The list could go on, but my point is that I'm not going to uphold a position in an argument that I no longer believe.

I don't think playing tag with your buddies, or boxing in your underwear versus a punching bag, qualifies as experience and know how of how a death match would work out. I remember an older US Army SNCO saying that a good plan without violence of action is nowhere nearly as effective as a poor plan with violence of action. Angron always brings the heat/pain/A game when it comes to fighting. Angron , while apparently being a mindless killing machine, survived the Horus Heresy. Sanguinius would end up picking a fight with Horus on roids, and arguably sold his life for no reason ( I remember reading about how he made a chip/dent in Horus's armor but that might have changed).

People really need to quit comparing Angron to a bloodthirster.. Sure you can bat away a whip, barbed or not, but batting away an axe swung with the force of a truck is another story. So Sang has killed demons, big whoop. So have random space marines. Fighting another primarch is a different animal all together. If you think Angron's blows can be ignored than you are not only off your rocker, you are on a totaly different chair. One made of tears and regret.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
People really need to quit comparing Angron to a bloodthirster.. Sure you can bat away a whip, barbed or not, but batting away an axe swung with the force of a truck is another story. So Sang has killed demons, big whoop. So have random space marines. Fighting another primarch is a different animal all together. If you think Angron's blows can be ignored than you are not only off your rocker, you are on a totaly different chair. One made of tears and regret.

When I mentioned what Sanguinius did to Ka'Bandha I wasn't actually comparing Angron to a Bloodthirster, I was just using it to illustrate that Sanguinius isn't weak. Sanguinius is always spoken of as a very fast and skilled fighter, but I think too many people automatically assume that this means he isn't very strong.

My real viewpoint on this is that it will be a closer than I think most people assume. At least two primarchs think Sanguinius is a match for Angron, and one of the latest ebooks from Black Library hints that Sanguinius is more than a match for someone like the Lion.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
People really need to quit comparing Angron to a bloodthirster.. Sure you can bat away a whip, barbed or not, but batting away an axe swung with the force of a truck is another story. So Sang has killed demons, big whoop. So have random space marines. Fighting another primarch is a different animal all together. If you think Angron's blows can be ignored than you are not only off your rocker, you are on a totaly different chair. One made of tears and regret.

Ignored? No. Turned aside? Anyone's attacks can be turned aside. Imagine the axe flying at Sanguinius. Angron is leaning forward into the attack to lend power to the attack and give him momentum to follow through. Sanguinius sweeps his wing into the flat of the weapon, redirecting the force slightly sidewards and missing his chest, whilst stabbing with his sword at Angron or parrying the second strike from Gorechild. He could also beat them into Angron's face to blijd and distract him.

Ave Dominus Nox wrote:
I don't think playing tag with your buddies, or boxing in your underwear versus a punching bag, qualifies as experience and know how of how a death match would work out. I remember an older US Army SNCO saying that a good plan without violence of action is nowhere nearly as effective as a poor plan with violence of action. Angron always brings the heat/pain/A game when it comes to fighting. Angron , while apparently being a mindless killing machine, survived the Horus Heresy. Sanguinius would end up picking a fight with Horus on roids, and arguably sold his life for no reason ( I remember reading about how he made a chip/dent in Horus's armor but that might have changed).

I've been practicing APSK Mixed Martial Arts for eight years. That means American (boxing, kickboxing), Polynesian (Hawaiian, really good improvisation on the batlefield), and Shaolin Kenpo. I've already explained Shaolin Kenpo. I've also practiced Modern Arnis for four years, though I regret that I have not been practicing it recently. I've also practiced traditional Chinese Kempo, which is a little different from the Shaolin stuff that I learned, for three years. Anyways, my point is that I know the way a fight goes down, and playing with swords is fun - especially Katanas, though Chinese Broadsword has some pretty cool Katas.

Sanguinius died because he had the bud luck to run into Chaos-juice Horus while on the Vengeful Spirit. If Dorne had run into the bastard, then Sanguinius would have been the one to survive and the Fists would be the ones who lost a Primarch.

I'm going to avoid the personal pissing contest going on around here and just state once again, if Sang uses his wings in combat Angron would then target those wings.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
I'm going to avoid the personal pissing contest going on around here and just state once again, if Sang uses his wings in combat Angron would then target those wings.

And what if Sanguinius waves a carrot hanging from a stick at Angron?

 Orblivion wrote:

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
I'm going to avoid the personal pissing contest going on around here and just state once again, if Sang uses his wings in combat Angron would then target those wings.

And what if Sanguinius waves a carrot hanging from a stick at Angron?

OK, that made me laugh.

 dusara217 wrote:

Ave Dominus Nox wrote:
I don't think playing tag with your buddies, or boxing in your underwear versus a punching bag, qualifies as experience and know how of how a death match would work out. I remember an older US Army SNCO saying that a good plan without violence of action is nowhere nearly as effective as a poor plan with violence of action. Angron always brings the heat/pain/A game when it comes to fighting. Angron , while apparently being a mindless killing machine, survived the Horus Heresy. Sanguinius would end up picking a fight with Horus on roids, and arguably sold his life for no reason ( I remember reading about how he made a chip/dent in Horus's armor but that might have changed).

I've been practicing APSK Mixed Martial Arts for eight years. That means American (boxing, kickboxing), Polynesian (Hawaiian, really good improvisation on the batlefield), and Shaolin Kenpo. I've already explained Shaolin Kenpo. I've also practiced Modern Arnis for four years, though I regret that I have not been practicing it recently. I've also practiced traditional Chinese Kempo, which is a little different from the Shaolin stuff that I learned, for three years. Anyways, my point is that I know the way a fight goes down, and playing with swords is fun - especially Katanas, though Chinese Broadsword has some pretty cool Katas.

Sanguinius died because he had the bud luck to run into Chaos-juice Horus while on the Vengeful Spirit. If Dorne had run into the bastard, then Sanguinius would have been the one to survive and the Fists would be the ones who lost a Primarch.

Those martial arts (with the exception of boxing/kickboxing solely by itself or in conjunction with eachother) are not used by any notable militaries (those who are actively getting stuff done). I have also noticed that none of those styles are currently being used by any UFC champions. I have no doubt that you possess knowledge of these styles, as they seem very niche. Those styles don't really work anymore as combat has evolved and combat sports uses a lot the same styles/disciplines. It isn't my intention to insult you, I am sure you're well suited to duke It out with your buddies. Pm me if you'd like to explain why my point of view is wrong. When they go into the confrontation between Horus and Sanguinius more I'll be eager to learn what happened. Sanguinius should have retreated/escaped/deferred, anything except die pointlessly. I bet Primarchs aren't accustomed to failure, so maybe Sanguinius actually thought he could win.

Sorry everybody, I'm done.

Ave Dominus Nox wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Ave Dominus Nox wrote:
I don't think playing tag with your buddies, or boxing in your underwear versus a punching bag, qualifies as experience and know how of how a death match would work out. I remember an older US Army SNCO saying that a good plan without violence of action is nowhere nearly as effective as a poor plan with violence of action. Angron always brings the heat/pain/A game when it comes to fighting. Angron , while apparently being a mindless killing machine, survived the Horus Heresy. Sanguinius would end up picking a fight with Horus on roids, and arguably sold his life for no reason ( I remember reading about how he made a chip/dent in Horus's armor but that might have changed).

I've been practicing APSK Mixed Martial Arts for eight years. That means American (boxing, kickboxing), Polynesian (Hawaiian, really good improvisation on the batlefield), and Shaolin Kenpo. I've already explained Shaolin Kenpo. I've also practiced Modern Arnis for four years, though I regret that I have not been practicing it recently. I've also practiced traditional Chinese Kempo, which is a little different from the Shaolin stuff that I learned, for three years. Anyways, my point is that I know the way a fight goes down, and playing with swords is fun - especially Katanas, though Chinese Broadsword has some pretty cool Katas.

Sanguinius died because he had the bud luck to run into Chaos-juice Horus while on the Vengeful Spirit. If Dorne had run into the bastard, then Sanguinius would have been the one to survive and the Fists would be the ones who lost a Primarch.

Those martial arts (with the exception of boxing/kickboxing solely by itself or in conjunction with eachother) are not used by any notable militaries (those who are actively getting stuff done). I have also noticed that none of those styles are currently being used by any UFC champions. I have no doubt that you possess knowledge of these styles, as they seem very niche. Those styles don't really work anymore as combat has evolved and combat sports uses a lot the same styles/disciplines. It isn't my intention to insult you, I am sure you're well suited to duke It out with your buddies. Pm me if you'd like to explain why my point of view is wrong. When they go into the confrontation between Horus and Sanguinius more I'll be eager to learn what happened. Sanguinius should have retreated/escaped/deferred, anything except die pointlessly. I bet Primarchs aren't accustomed to failure, so maybe Sanguinius actually thought he could win.

Sorry everybody, I'm done.

It's pretty well established that Sanguinius knew he was going to die because of his psychic gift, but he chose to fight Horus anyways. Whatever vision gave him the knowledge of his death must have shown him that his death was necessary, otherwise he wouldn't have done it.

I'm certainley not hating on Sang. I believe he gave his life to give them Emperor time to get to Horus. But in the end, I still vote Angron. But really I vote Curze, because Night Lords. And reasons.

Angron is a beast of a warrior, but I can't see him defeating Sanguinius. Sanguinius is the most skilled and strongest melee fighter out of all the primarchs. Pitting Angron against Sanguinius is like pitting a tiger against a seasoned knight. Angron is brutal, but Sanguinius is one of few primarchs that fights with a passionate fury. Anger is a good motivator, but I think if given the correct encouragement, Sanguinius will simply want to win more than Angron ever would. I think Angron would have him trumped in weight, strength, and relentlessness, but Sanguinius will be the more skilled and experienced fighter out of the two. He will be faster, he will be more accurate, he will deal more blows, and Angron would be the first to tire. I'm sure it would be a struggle, but the more ferocious fighter will win. Angrons got that rage, but thats not the same as ferociousness. Sanguinius will be the more ferocious out of the two.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
I'm going to avoid the personal pissing contest going on around here and just state once again, if Sang uses his wings in combat Angron would then target those wings.

And what if Sanguinius waves a carrot hanging from a stick at Angron?

Exalted

More like a seasoned knight against a armored cybernetic tiger with anger issues. I will wait for HH stats for Sang and make my mind up.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
More like a seasoned knight against a armored cybernetic tiger with anger issues. I will wait for HH stats for Sang and make my mind up.

The game stats are a poor indication of who would win in a fluff scenario. Until/unless we see them fight, it will remain up to our own opinions based on the fluff we have available.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
More like a seasoned knight against a armored cybernetic tiger with anger issues. I will wait for HH stats for Sang and make my mind up.

The game stats are a poor indication of who would win in a fluff scenario. Until/unless we see them fight, it will remain up to our own opinions based on the fluff we have available.

Fluff is an even worse indication.

For example, if you read SM fluff, they're super resilient and clever tacticians that win 1 vs 1000 fights due to being so awesome. When you read xeno books, marines are like mindless screaming horde with chainsaws falling blindly into your cunning traps and dying in droves.

If you like blood angels, you read fluff about how awesome they are and how cool and undefeatable Sang is. If you like word bearers, you read fluff about how brutal and awesome they are and how fierce and undefeated Angron is.

It's just that BA have more fans than WE.

In one of the books. I think, "False Gods", didnt Horus says Angron was far and away the best close combat fighter. He said he and Sanguinius stood the best chance though.
And Russ lost the fight Angron so he is out of the discussion in my opinion.

Serg Rush wrote:
In one of the books. I think, "False Gods", didnt Horus says Angron was far and away the best close combat fighter. He said he and Sanguinius stood the best chance though.
And Russ lost the fight Angron so he is out of the discussion in my opinion.

Corax mentions that he thinks only Horus and Sanguinius have a chance of beating Angron. But then in one of the more recent HH novels, Horus mentions that he wants Angron around because he's the only one who has a chance to beat Sanguinius. So obviously the two are, at least in the eyes of their fellow primarchs, closely matched.

 koooaei wrote:

It's just that BA have more fans than WE.

This, I believe is the root of the problem. No way Angron was gonna win this poll.

I don't like Blood Angels, they're too vampire-y. Plus too much people play them because they like CC, or because they're easily exploitable.

 koooaei wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

He literally has cranial implants that force him to feel nothing but massive, unctorllable, insane amounts of rage. After a couple of decades, attack kill rage is all he is. Originally, he probably did fight with technique and artistry, but rage is his tool now due to the Butcher's Nails.

Can you give some quotes on Angron going stupid uncontrollable angry meat loosing all skill and tactix or you're just making things up?

I do not have an exact quote, but he did walk into an obvious trap and had a building dropped on him. He would have dug to the center of the planet and burned up if his Libraians did not sacrifice their lifes to turn him around. Also when the World eaters fought the Space Wolves, at which at the end of the fight him and his sons did not even recognize that the had lost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
I don't like Blood Angels, they're too vampire-y. Plus too much people play them because they like CC, or because they're easily exploitable.

Waaa all because the drink blood, wear fancy armor, are vain, ohhhh I see it now.

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
I don't like Blood Angels, they're too vampire-y. Plus too much people play them because they like CC, or because they're easily exploitable.

Blood Angels have two dominant features: VAHMPAHRS IN SPEHSS and the underlying Angelicness about them. They are also meant to be the humble versions of the Emperor's Children.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Personally, I've always like how humble and angelic they are, and I prefer to keep the Vampire associations away from them in my mind

 Mojo1jojo wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

He literally has cranial implants that force him to feel nothing but massive, unctorllable, insane amounts of rage. After a couple of decades, attack kill rage is all he is. Originally, he probably did fight with technique and artistry, but rage is his tool now due to the Butcher's Nails.

Can you give some quotes on Angron going stupid uncontrollable angry meat loosing all skill and tactix or you're just making things up?

I do not have an exact quote, but he did walk into an obvious trap and had a building dropped on him. He would have dug to the center of the planet and burned up if his Libraians did not sacrifice their lifes to turn him around. Also when the World eaters fought the Space Wolves, at which at the end of the fight him and his sons did not even recognize that the had lost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
I don't like Blood Angels, they're too vampire-y. Plus too much people play them because they like CC, or because they're easily exploitable.

Waaa all because the drink blood, wear fancy armor, are vain, ohhhh I see it now.

Oh, so he fell for a trap? Obviously every leader of every squad must be an idiot blinded by rage then, because that happens in practically every story. Have you had a builiding dropped on you? I'm sure its pretty disorientatating, and you wouldn't really be sure up or down under all that.

It was a matter of perspective, utterly down to PoV. Both of them realised that defeating the other side's Primarch would win the battle. Russ did it by surrounding him and thinking Angron wouldn't attack if under threat of certain death by mass bolter fire. Angron made it very clear he didn't give a feth whether they shot him or not, because his spirit had died long ago with his Spartacus-esque rebellion. Both had the potential to kill the other there and then. All they had to do was swing an axe and open fire and both would be dead. Except Russ would be dead and have lost. Angron would be dead and won.

 dusara217 wrote:
Blood Angels have two dominant features: VAHMPAHRS IN SPEHSS and the underlying Angelicness about them. They are also meant to be the humble versions of the Emperor's Children.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Personally, I've always like how humble and angelic they are, and I prefer to keep the Vampire associations away from them in my mind

Yea, still don't like them.

 LumenPraebeo wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Blood Angels have two dominant features: VAHMPAHRS IN SPEHSS and the underlying Angelicness about them. They are also meant to be the humble versions of the Emperor's Children.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Personally, I've always like how humble and angelic they are, and I prefer to keep the Vampire associations away from them in my mind

Yea, still don't like them.

That's OK. I hate the Smurfs and a few other Chapters, I completely understand. Stoopid vanilla bastards don't have any flavor...