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DaKKaLAnce wrote:
It will not take many hits from angron to kill Sangy. Just because angron is a angry man, does not mean he cant fight well. That is all he knows, he can fight very well and I honestly think he can kill sangy if put in a cage match. Dont compare him to a greater daemon and assume sang can take him on. Primarchs are above greater daemon, So this will be a completely different secnario.

Horus himself thought Sanguinius could be an issue for Angron, as did Corax.

 Orblivion wrote:

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
It will not take many hits from angron to kill Sangy. Just because angron is a angry man, does not mean he cant fight well. That is all he knows, he can fight very well and I honestly think he can kill sangy if put in a cage match. Dont compare him to a greater daemon and assume sang can take him on. Primarchs are above greater daemon, So this will be a completely different secnario.

Horus himself thought Sanguinius could be an issue for Angron, as did Corax.

More importantly Horus thought that Sanguinius would be an issue for himself, hence his whole elaborate Daemon world play specifically to try and neutralise Sanguinius.

In the open field Sanguinius has no reason to fight Angron at all - he is not a duelist who might tempt him to test his skills so Sanguinius could just fly up high and shoot Angron in the head repeatedly until he dies if he wanted to. I find it interesting that people seem to think that Sanguinius' wings would be a problem is cage fight - while he obviously wouldn't want to get into a straight up arm wrestle with Angron there are multiple instances in the fluff of Sanguinius showing incredible control of his wings and using them as an additional weapon/shield in combat. They can flick through peoples eyelines as a distraction, as well as deflect blunt blows and disrupt peoples follow throughs (flick the weapon once its past you), and would definitely be usable against Angron because he uses axes, which only have one edge (kinda tricky to do the same tricks against a double edged power sword).

Mortal vs Mortal = Sanguinius.

Sanguinius vs. Deamon Angron (who has wings btw) = Angron all day.

 WhiteDevil wrote:
Mortal vs Mortal = Sanguinius.

Sanguinius vs. Deamon Angron (who has wings btw) = Angron all day.

calling bull on this too. Sang laughs at anything Deamon prince+

besides, the deamon primarchs are, IMO less than they were as normal primarchs, why? several reasons- overconfidence, lazy as hell, losing there "Identity" by the hour. Sang would fly circle around Angron DP, just like any other DP, then bend him over his knee and snap his back.

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:
Last time I did this the lion beat the wolf by votes so this time we will do sanguinious vs angron, who wins in a fight?

Please start names with a capital letter..

 Reality-Torrent wrote:

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:
Last time I did this the lion beat the wolf by votes so this time we will do sanguinious vs angron, who wins in a fight?

Please start names with a capital letter..

also, its Sanguinius IIRC

I think they have equal chances. Though, i lean towards Angron. He's a zerk gladiator. Zerk gladiators tend to know quite well how to win the actual fighting be it archangel knight or whatever. He has a thing going for him - a total lack of self-perservation. He can easilly cope with his arm chopped off if it'd open the opponent for a more damaging strike.

You guys should know Angron is actually very intelligent and calculating, He's not only about rage, Besides I doubt Sanguinius would just "Fly and shoot him in the head" until he dies, Guy's a Primarch that survived being stepped on by a Titan...

Khonsu wrote:
You guys should know Angron is actually very intelligent and calculating, He's not only about rage, Besides I doubt Sanguinius would just "Fly and shoot him in the head" until he dies, Guy's a Primarch that survived being stepped on by a Titan...

No, no, no, RUSS is intelligent and calculating with a Berserker tendency. Angron is literally being consumed by so much rage that it would have killed him had he not been turned into a DP. Once in the battle, Angron knows nothing but rage, while Sanguinius can be cold, calculating, he can think without thinking and through his intelligence mixed with strength of arms win the day.

 dusara217 wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
You guys should know Angron is actually very intelligent and calculating, He's not only about rage, Besides I doubt Sanguinius would just "Fly and shoot him in the head" until he dies, Guy's a Primarch that survived being stepped on by a Titan...

No, no, no, RUSS is intelligent and calculating with a Berserker tendency. Angron is literally being consumed by so much rage that it would have killed him had he not been turned into a DP. Once in the battle, Angron knows nothing but rage, while Sanguinius can be cold, calculating, he can think without thinking and through his intelligence mixed with strength of arms win the day.

Betrayer disagrees with you. During the fight with Guilliman, Lorgar's perspective talks about how Angron's fighting actually does have a strategy and it is surprisingly and frighteningly intelligent, effective and beautiful. Attack, attack so hard the foe doesn't even have a chance to do anything that block, block until he tires and makes a mistake and then he dies.

 Deadshot wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
You guys should know Angron is actually very intelligent and calculating, He's not only about rage, Besides I doubt Sanguinius would just "Fly and shoot him in the head" until he dies, Guy's a Primarch that survived being stepped on by a Titan...

No, no, no, RUSS is intelligent and calculating with a Berserker tendency. Angron is literally being consumed by so much rage that it would have killed him had he not been turned into a DP. Once in the battle, Angron knows nothing but rage, while Sanguinius can be cold, calculating, he can think without thinking and through his intelligence mixed with strength of arms win the day.

Betrayer disagrees with you. During the fight with Guilliman, Lorgar's perspective talks about how Angron's fighting actually does have a strategy and it is surprisingly and frighteningly intelligent, effective and beautiful. Attack, attack so hard the foe doesn't even have a chance to do anything that block, block until he tires and makes a mistake and then he dies.

You just said that his whole strategy is "attack, attack" so I don't see how we disagree on that point. The thing is that the Sanguinius is a skilled and strong and agile enough warrior that he can counter, he can redirrect Angron's strike, he can knock him off balance, etc. sanguinius is a total CC beast, but he also has that advantage of a cold, analytical mind in combat that any truly skilled swordsman must have. Of course, the exception to this is Berserkers, but that cold, calculating minding can always trump a Berzerker so long as he has the skill.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
You guys should know Angron is actually very intelligent and calculating, He's not only about rage, Besides I doubt Sanguinius would just "Fly and shoot him in the head" until he dies, Guy's a Primarch that survived being stepped on by a Titan...

No, no, no, RUSS is intelligent and calculating with a Berserker tendency. Angron is literally being consumed by so much rage that it would have killed him had he not been turned into a DP. Once in the battle, Angron knows nothing but rage, while Sanguinius can be cold, calculating, he can think without thinking and through his intelligence mixed with strength of arms win the day.

Betrayer disagrees with you. During the fight with Guilliman, Lorgar's perspective talks about how Angron's fighting actually does have a strategy and it is surprisingly and frighteningly intelligent, effective and beautiful. Attack, attack so hard the foe doesn't even have a chance to do anything that block, block until he tires and makes a mistake and then he dies.

You just said that his whole strategy is "attack, attack" so I don't see how we disagree on that point. The thing is that the Sanguinius is a skilled and strong and agile enough warrior that he can counter, he can redirrect Angron's strike, he can knock him off balance, etc. sanguinius is a total CC beast, but he also has that advantage of a cold, analytical mind in combat that any truly skilled swordsman must have. Of course, the exception to this is Berserkers, but that cold, calculating minding can always trump a Berzerker so long as he has the skill.

A cold and calculating mind will not universally trump blind aggression. Have you ever been in a fight? Ever seen a proper fight? The guy who knows karate and kung fu rarely gets the opportunity to use it because the other guy is just hammering him with punch after punch and then walloping him on the ground. And Angron has sublime skill of his own. Just a different type of skill.

I guess we eill wait utill we see stats for Sangy when FW throws them out there. I find it hard to believe he will stand up to Angron. But then again, perhaps Fulgrim would be a better match-up for Wingy-Poo.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
I guess we eill wait utill we see stats for Sangy when FW throws them out there. I find it hard to believe he will stand up to Angron. But then again, perhaps Fulgrim would be a better match-up for Wingy-Poo.

Or we might see them fight in the HH series, but that could be 50 years from now.

 dusara217 wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
You guys should know Angron is actually very intelligent and calculating, He's not only about rage, Besides I doubt Sanguinius would just "Fly and shoot him in the head" until he dies, Guy's a Primarch that survived being stepped on by a Titan...

No, no, no, RUSS is intelligent and calculating with a Berserker tendency. Angron is literally being consumed by so much rage that it would have killed him had he not been turned into a DP. Once in the battle, Angron knows nothing but rage, while Sanguinius can be cold, calculating, he can think without thinking and through his intelligence mixed with strength of arms win the day.

Russ and intelligent in the same sentence, Does not compute.
Besides Angron was being slowly killed by the Nails not by his rage.

Angron and Sanguinius may or may not be peers in martial might.

But Sanguinius is considerably more mobile than Angron, and is a very powerful psyker as well. These facts probably tip the scales and give him the win.

I dont think that Angron would win having read some of the books. I remember reading something about Horus and Logar talking about trying to keep Sanguinous away from Terra, through direct attack or distraction, however Logar have the gift a preminition stats that no matter what they do there is no method that Horus can deploy to keep him away from Terra during the seig. They also stat that the only two people that have a glimore of hope to beat him is Angron or Horus himself, which he does by cheating.

 Mojo1jojo wrote:
I dont think that Angron would win having read some of the books. I remember reading something about Horus and Logar talking about trying to keep Sanguinous away from Terra, through direct attack or distraction, however Logar have the gift a preminition stats that no matter what they do there is no method that Horus can deploy to keep him away from Terra during the seig. They also stat that the only two people that have a glimore of hope to beat him is Angron or Horus himself, which he does by cheating.

This isn't a game(Well Technically it is) nothing constitutes "Cheating", Besides it wasn't like he was warp infused by choice.

Fun question...

Angron is clearly the more RAGE fighter and brute strength and ferocity, which would work against 99.9% in the universe. However versus another primarch, thats different. Sang is a great fighter fighter with divine nature (if you ask me). In the book Deliverance Lost, when the Imperial Fists are discussing how this heresy will end, Dorn is quoted having said that "Sang would be the one to kill Horus" and "my brother, sang is the Angel of Death."

I believe sang wins IMO

But great thread!!! and its open to interpretation all day!!!!

Sangunius only because I know him so well.
Remember, the Emperor created the primarchs from his own DNA. so, that means the primarchs are basically clones of the Emperor.

How could Angron hope to stop this..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2m45TLVKRs

I like to think that Gladiators do well in 1v1 scenarios, even with all of Sangies plot armor he'll have a bad day.

 Deadshot wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
You guys should know Angron is actually very intelligent and calculating, He's not only about rage, Besides I doubt Sanguinius would just "Fly and shoot him in the head" until he dies, Guy's a Primarch that survived being stepped on by a Titan...

No, no, no, RUSS is intelligent and calculating with a Berserker tendency. Angron is literally being consumed by so much rage that it would have killed him had he not been turned into a DP. Once in the battle, Angron knows nothing but rage, while Sanguinius can be cold, calculating, he can think without thinking and through his intelligence mixed with strength of arms win the day.

Betrayer disagrees with you. During the fight with Guilliman, Lorgar's perspective talks about how Angron's fighting actually does have a strategy and it is surprisingly and frighteningly intelligent, effective and beautiful. Attack, attack so hard the foe doesn't even have a chance to do anything that block, block until he tires and makes a mistake and then he dies.

You just said that his whole strategy is "attack, attack" so I don't see how we disagree on that point. The thing is that the Sanguinius is a skilled and strong and agile enough warrior that he can counter, he can redirrect Angron's strike, he can knock him off balance, etc. sanguinius is a total CC beast, but he also has that advantage of a cold, analytical mind in combat that any truly skilled swordsman must have. Of course, the exception to this is Berserkers, but that cold, calculating minding can always trump a Berzerker so long as he has the skill.

A cold and calculating mind will not universally trump blind aggression. Have you ever been in a fight? Ever seen a proper fight? The guy who knows karate and kung fu rarely gets the opportunity to use it because the other guy is just hammering him with punch after punch and then walloping him on the ground. And Angron has sublime skill of his own. Just a different type of skill.

As it happens, I HAVE been in a fight. I have been the guy hammering away, mindlessly hitting so hard that my foe cannot think straight and I have been the guy on the receiving end. I have also been the skilled Martial Artist who allowed my foe who weighed at least a hundred pounds more than me to waste his energy trying to batter me into submission while I simply parried and evaded. I proceeded to hit him in a few pressure points and then break his wrist after he had got himself good and tired.
Now, the tactics that I described that I used would do no good against the Primarch, as Angron could potentially attack Sanguinius for days before tiring, if not weeks. However good defensive fighter knows when and how to take the aggressor and use his own energy against him, that's basically the entire philosophy of Modern Arnis - structure and fluidity as well as the perfect application of force to redirect your opponent's energy with a little of your own added into the pot. It is rather unfortunate that I have not had the chance to actually practice Arnis in a few years, but I do practice Kempo on a regular basis, and I know for a fact that your intermediate or novice Kung-Fu man may lose to all-out aggression, but any advanced Kung Fu practitioner will trump Mr. Heavyweight Boxer.
But, of course, thinking without thinking - a shadow of a thought, really, but analytically nonetheless - will allow a skilled warrior to defeat the berzerker who attacks mindlessly. I have learned this the hard way, and I have the shame to prove it.

Also, in response to the Russ question, that is a common misconception. Let's use the wolf as an example. Wolves are cunning creatures (or at least in comparison to, say, a bear), and can hunt with very effective tactics and well-controlled ferocity. If a wolf gets out of control, he and his pack does not eat, and he goes hungry. If you ever see a wolf cornered, that wolf will fight harder than any other creature in the world, it is truly a magnificent sight. So take the hunting wolf analogy, and that is essentially Russ. He will attack ferociously, he will see his prey and set his traps and attack attack, block, counter, attack, attack, attack, parry, feign, backhand, and boom! there goes your head. Whereas Angron is just attack, attack, oh look a sword in my belly, ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK, IMMA KILL THIS BISH, RAGE FURY STRIKE, ATTACK, ATTACK, IMMA KEEP ATTACKING EVEN THOUGH ITS JUST A CORPSE NOW!!!!!! See the difference?

I remember during this last Christmas, my aunt, clearly a 100 pounds more than me, went in for a hug. I began to run away , trying to expend her energy but to no avail. She started her relentless kisses to my cheek, all while I was trying my best to parry and evade. Her weight and implacable aggression saw me good and tired.

Also, where are boxers losing to Kung Fu practitioners?

I feel that the Primarchs , for the most part, should have a 50/50 chance in regards to beating each other. They all had unique traits and skill sets that made them dangerous. Withholding Lorgar, x vs y would always be a fairly even match.

Ave Dominus Nox wrote:
I remember during this last Christmas, my aunt, clearly a 100 pounds more than me, went in for a hug. I began to run away , trying to expend her energy but to no avail. She started her relentless kisses to my cheek, all while I was trying my best to parry and evade. Her weight and implacable aggression saw me good and tired.

Also, where are boxers losing to Kung Fu practitioners?

I feel that the Primarchs , for the most part, should have a 50/50 chance in regards to beating each other. They all had unique traits and skill sets that made them dangerous. Withholding Lorgar, x vs y would always be a fairly even match.

Ok, first of all, you never let anybody who is bigger than you get any closer than arm's length. If they are close enough to get you in a bear hug, it's all over unless you yourself are a fantastically talented grappler with lots of experience and/or training. That's just basic common sense 150 lb vs. 250 lb, the 250 guy just has to sit on you. Now, that being said, you can cause excruciating pain if you hit the correct pressure points in the correct manner, which can give a huge bonus in grappling (though you rarely get the opportunity to actually use this due to the speed at which ground fights move).
Second of all, Kung Fu was specifically designed by small guys to beat big guys. Kung Fu is an art where, if used correctly, you can take almost anybody out. Although, Kung Fu was designed by small people for small people and thus it doesn't work as well for the big guys. One Martial Art that is basically better than Kung fu is Shaolin Kenpo (the Martial Art taught at the Shaolin temples), which combines the circles and redirection of Kung Fu with the lines and power of Karate with a perfect mastery of rotational torque and marriage of gravity. These factors together will trump any boxer.

To put it simply, boxing is a line Martial Art. It was designed by big guys for big guys, and is almost all "muscling". Kung Fu is a circle Martial Art. It was designed by little guys for little guys specifically to deal with big guys. The circle beats the line when applied with skill - the circle requires brain + skill/training. The line simply requires basic human instinct, though is best when done with brawn. Something that Kempo instructors will often say is "Don't muscle it". That is to say, "don't be stupid". When you "muscle" something, you only use your muscle instead of skill. When you do something properly, like a standing shoulder lock, instead of "muscling" it, then you will receive far better results.

To tie this in with the thread, Angron is pure rage, and thus he is basically The Hulk with a couple of Chainblades (nonstop "muscling it", though he is massively strong). Sanguinius is large as well, but he lacks the rage and unstoppable ferocity of Angron and replaces it with cunning and skill. Sanguinius would use things such as parries and dirty tricks to knock Angron off balance or to simply trick him into opening his guard so that Sanguinius can deliver a killing blow.

Also, everybody is outright discounting the fact that Sanguinius's wings are a boon. They are INSANELY strong (they can lift Sanguius into the sky when he's fully armoured without strain - that's at least a ton - and they can also lift Sanguinius + a Daemon Prince into the air with minimal starin - easily a ton and a half, maybe 2 -), and they can be powerful weapons. For instance, Sanguinius can parry a downward slash of Angron's chainblade while he steps diagonally forward and slams his wings down on each side of Angron's head (temples). This would, at the very least, leave Angron stunned as the temples are thin points in the skull and that would easily kill an ordinary Astartes due to brain damage - not that Angron has much of brain to begin with

BTW, in case you don't know what a parry is, it is where you redirect your opponent's strike. For instance, if I were to parry a punch to the face, I would simply push it to the side as it comes at me - easier said than done, i'll admit. I've been punched in the face many times when I parried improperly. The same thing applies in the kind of swordfighting that the Primarchs would engage in; redirrect Angron's blade then pull in slightly and you'll knock him off balance.

Well, given all that, Sanguinius still ended up dead. Maybe he wasn't as smart as we think.

Angron may seem like he is only Attack attack kill rage! but there is much more to it thenn that.

In his rage he is still amazingly skilled, he forces openings, keeps an eye out for parries etc. Maybe not to the same level as sanguinius but he is hardly fighting like the hulk. Russ ended at his mercy crawling on the floor trying to hold back angron.

Its about 50/50 i'd say.

Alto horus made me believe angron would actualy win, him saying there a good match for himself combined with his thinking of sanguinius beign the greatest of themm all may make him overestimate the angel

Amoras wrote:
Angron may seem like he is only Attack attack kill rage! but there is much more to it thenn that.

In his rage he is still amazingly skilled, he forces openings, keeps an eye out for parries etc. Maybe not to the same level as sanguinius but he is hardly fighting like the hulk. Russ ended at his mercy crawling on the floor trying to hold back angron.

Its about 50/50 i'd say.

Alto horus made me believe angron would actualy win, him saying there a good match for himself combined with his thinking of sanguinius beign the greatest of themm all may make him overestimate the angel

He literally has cranial implants that force him to feel nothing but massive, unctorllable, insane amounts of rage. After a couple of decades, attack kill rage is all he is. Originally, he probably did fight with technique and artistry, but rage is his tool now due to the Butcher's Nails. Also, I never said that he wasn't skilled, it's just that rage is what dominates him and thus the skill does not come to the fore, rather his anger does.

 dusara217 wrote:

Amoras wrote:
Angron may seem like he is only Attack attack kill rage! but there is much more to it thenn that.

In his rage he is still amazingly skilled, he forces openings, keeps an eye out for parries etc. Maybe not to the same level as sanguinius but he is hardly fighting like the hulk. Russ ended at his mercy crawling on the floor trying to hold back angron.

Its about 50/50 i'd say.

Alto horus made me believe angron would actualy win, him saying there a good match for himself combined with his thinking of sanguinius beign the greatest of themm all may make him overestimate the angel

He literally has cranial implants that force him to feel nothing but massive, unctorllable, insane amounts of rage. After a couple of decades, attack kill rage is all he is. Originally, he probably did fight with technique and artistry, but rage is his tool now due to the Butcher's Nails. Also, I never said that he wasn't skilled, it's just that rage is what dominates him and thus the skill does not come to the fore, rather his anger does.

Betrayer disagrees, as it shows when fighting against Guilliman he does indeed use skill. Like I said ages ago, its a different form of skill, but it is skill non-the-less. You make him sound like a slavering rabid attack dog. He's not, he's a brutal, aggressive and intelligent fighter. You DO NOT win fights by not having intelligence. You DO NOT succeed as a berserker or soldier if you are dumb. BErserkers use anger to fuel their energy, adrenaline and power. Being a berserker doesn't mean you are a slobbering maniac, it means you use your aggression to fuel your body,while keeping your mind clear, as for most, anger clouds judgement. Berserkers don't let their anger cloud their mind, rather they use it to focus their rage into combat. So if you are trying to argue that Angron is a mindless killing machine, which he isn't, otherwise he'd just kill his own side too, he can't be a berserker.

I think Angron gets underetimated by a lot of people. First, on the wolf analogy, if you think that when cornered "that wolf will fight harder than any other creature in the world" try cornering a leapord or tiger. Or get between a momma bear and her cub. Second, yes, Sang is a great fighter but Angron only needs one or two hits to finish him off. A chainblade would be mush harder to parry than a conventional blade, or even a power weapon. The very movement of the chain would deflect the parrying blade. And lastly, on the absurdity that Sang would use his wings as a weapon. That would just make them an easy target for Angron's axe. I am also envisoning in X-Men when Wolfsbane ripped Angel's wings off. I could see Angron doing that.

Angron is a very skilled fighter, And he knows very well how to fight in 1v1 combat. He isnt a general when ragging , but he can still fight effectively.